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By the will of the force itself, it has taken Count Dooku's spirit and give it a new body to inhabit, it is his own physical body, restored to its physical prime and peak. Dooku also retains all knowledge, experience, skills that he had acquired over the course of his life and subsequent death and betrayal at the hands of sidious and anakin. Dooku is made aware of all the events hat have transpired since his death and what has occured in the galaxy, the rise and fall of the jedi, siths, and empires, the wars.

Versus

Mace Windu, who has been ressurected by the force itself, give his body in its physial prime, and also retains all memories, experiences, skills he had experienced over the course of his life up to his subsequent death.

This match is both utilizing all their intelligence, skills, force powers, physical fitness, in a duel to the death, who comes out victorious?

Mace.

Essentially it's still Vaapad>Dark Side. So Mace.

Mace....Wasn't it the case that he would've defeated Dooku in the Boz pity duel if it wasn't for the Magna Guards

Vaapad > dark side really is ones opinion. As demonstrated with Mace Windu versus Sidious, where sidious easily held his own against overwhelming numbers, and saved Mace so he could manipulate the situation to seem as though he were about to be killed right when anakin arrives to sway him.

See how easy it is to have a perception?

I see vaapad just as another form, a philosoph, not better or greater then any other.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Vaapad > dark side really is ones opinion. As demonstrated with Mace Windu versus Sidious, where sidious easily held his own against overwhelming numbers, and saved Mace so he could manipulate the situation to seem as though he were about to be killed right when anakin arrives to sway him.

See how easy it is to have a perception?

I see vaapad just as another form, a philosoph, not better or greater then any other. Then you clearly have no respect for canon.

Canon is material, which each interprets as their own, except for the few pieces in which the writers have stated on "lucas behalf" of what some thing is or more often of what some thing is not.

As for vappad being the anti life formula to all sith in combat, is not canon, nor is it supported concretely any writer source, its left for your interpretation. Vaapad may have been designed to utilize the grey line skating the dark side energies, but does it mean it defeats all sith or gives a massive advantage over them? No.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Vaapad > dark side really is ones opinion. As demonstrated with Mace Windu versus Sidious, where sidious easily held his own against overwhelming numbers, and saved Mace so he could manipulate the situation to seem as though he were about to be killed right when anakin arrives to sway him.

See how easy it is to have a perception?

I see vaapad just as another form, a philosoph, not better or greater then any other.

Wrong dude!!! Sidious didn't "easily" hold his own in any respect. Read the novel. Watch the movie. Sidious was being overwhelmed by Maces onslaught. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Canon is material, which each interprets as their own, except for the few pieces in which the writers have stated on "lucas behalf" of what some thing is or more often of what some thing is not.

As for vappad being the anti life formula to all sith in combat, is not canon, nor is it supported concretely any writer source, its left for your interpretation. Vaapad may have been designed to utilize the grey line skating the dark side energies, but does it mean it defeats all sith or gives a massive advantage over them? No. Read.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Then you clearly have no respect for canon.



Discontinuity

I use this method all the time with Star Wars. It works wonders.

I have watched the movie, which is the highest form of canon, and yes I interpret their fight as being in sidious favor. He easily dispatched the jedi accompanying Windu, and then kept windu occupied till Anakin was in position to be swayed to his influence. And it worked effectively indeed.

Originally posted by Board Walker
I have watched the movie, which is the highest form of canon, and yes I interpret their fight as being in sidious favor. He easily dispatched the jedi accompanying Windu, and then kept windu occupied till Anakin was in position to be swayed to his influence. And it worked effectively indeed. I watched the movie too. And my interpretation says that Bail Organa only escaped from the Clones because he had Jedi-like reflexes. Ergo, he has Force powers. Ergo, he can contend with Sidious, according to my interpretation.


Seriously, are you an idiot or are you just THAT unaware?

If you have the DVD, just watch it with Lucas' comments enabled. You'll hear that "Mace overpowered Palpatine".

Originally posted by Board Walker
I have watched the movie, which is the highest form of canon, and yes I interpret their fight as being in sidious favor. He easily dispatched the jedi accompanying Windu, and then kept windu occupied till Anakin was in position to be swayed to his influence. And it worked effectively indeed.
Your opinions and interpretation of what you thought you saw in the movie are inferior to the novel's interpretation of what you saw in the movie. Sidious wasn't able to handle Mace in this situation. He faked weakness at the end, but lost the lightsaber duel straight up.

Also: What kind of interpretation do you have when you think that Sidious FAKED getting his lightsaber kicked out of his hand? Think about that? How do you fake getting something kicked out of your hand? Can't happen.

You can fake the tactical error of allowing your hand to be in a position where Mace can kick it.

'Zomg! I've left myself wide-open totally by mistake! You'd think a master swordsman would be above that!'

It's a fact that Sidious lost the duel. But its also a fact that Sidious faked losing the force battle.

Originally posted by ares834
It's a fact that Sidious lost the duel. But its also a fact that Sidious faked losing the force battle. That's a Bingo!

and remember sidious>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dooku

Originally posted by ares834
It's a fact that Sidious lost the duel. But its also a fact that Sidious faked losing the force battle.

Yes, then lame Anakin shows up and cuts off his (Mace's) arm hence causing his barbecue.

Barbeque, rather.
Barbecue=almost the same thing, sorry about that guys.

There's an Edit button.

Maybe he thinks its for decoration, like the Report button.

I can see that sidious was overpowered in saber to saber combat due to physical influences and other factors. But what I meant by Sidious purposely lost the duel, was or more less the whole picture, not just the saber portion.

I do believe that if anakin was never a factor in that fight, as in sidious never had any intention to turn him, the duel would have turned out quite different, and I do believe sidious would have been using force powers intermingled with his saber combat from the very get go, seeing as purely in sabers he wasn't going to overcome him.

Originally posted by Board Walker
I can see that sidious was overpowered in saber to saber combat due to physical influences and other factors. But what I meant by Sidious purposely lost the duel, was or more less the whole picture, not just the saber portion.

I do believe that if anakin was never a factor in that fight, as in sidious never had any intention to turn him, the duel would have turned out quite different, and I do believe sidious would have been using force powers intermingled with his saber combat from the very get go, seeing as purely in sabers he wasn't going to overcome him.

You're a stubborn one, aren't you.

Sidious wasn't aware of Anakin while duelling Mace, so he wasn't a factor during the first part in which Mace disarmed Sidious. Sidious was overpowered by Vaapad, simple as that.

I do believe sidious was aware of Anakin during the duel, by expectation of his arrival, as well as being able to feel him approaching.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
You're a stubborn one, aren't you.

Sidious wasn't aware of Anakin while duelling Mace, so he wasn't a factor during the first part in which Mace disarmed Sidious. Sidious was overpowered by Vaapad, simple as that.

I don't know if I like this. How would it have helped his bid to claim Anakin if he said "THE JEDIZ R EVIL THEY TRIED TO INSEMINATE MEbut i kinda killed them"

Especially if Anakin walked in on Sidious standing over 4 bodies.

Originally posted by Board Walker
I do believe sidious was aware of Anakin during the duel, by expectation of his arrival, as well as being able to feel him approaching. What you believe is irrelevant. You can't claim it as truth.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
What you believe is irrelevant. You can't claim it as truth.

Truth is what ever you decide for it to be, just as you have your own paradigm of what truth is and isn't.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Truth is what ever you decide for it to be, just as you have your own paradigm of what truth is and isn't.

WTF? There cannot be two truths. There can be relative degrees to which one claims on thing or another (i.e. it's cold - no it isn't, not for me 'cause I'm used to much colder weather). I am the President of the Unites States of America has no basis whatsoever in truth, no matter how strongly I decide it to be true.

Originally posted by Board Walker
I can see that sidious was overpowered in saber to saber combat due to physical influences and other factors. But what I meant by Sidious purposely lost the duel, was or more less the whole picture, not just the saber portion.

Sorry, the G-canon novel makes it clear sidious was losing that duel. Not faking it.


And ROTS sidious saber skills are 13 years out of practice, the only time sidious was truly "godly" with a saber was either in TPM or in DE.

no

There is only one truth. It is the same for everybody. Or, at least, there have been no corroborated instances of divergence between one subjective experience (of interaction with the non-personal universe) and another; we're all in the same boat.



"we are all in the same boat...

Else: I just decided that the sidewalk truly contains a mechanism that contaminates anyone that walks on it with the virus "Solanum" (which turns anyone that comes into contact with it into a zombie) and the only way to prevent the destabilization of society (and the deaths of countless millions of human and non-human lives) is to decapitate anyone that treads on the pavement between my driveway and the neighbor's using a rusty spoon. I assure you it is a painful process- for them. (The truth is that the virus doesn't kick in until after they've left the property.)

If truth about the universe is subjective then there is no definition of insanity.

For a much less pretentious (and much less strugglin') post than mine, try this:
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
WTF? There cannot be two truths. There can be relative degrees to which one claims on thing or another (i.e. it's cold - no it isn't, not for me 'cause I'm used to much colder weather). I am the President of the Unites States of America has no basis whatsoever in truth, no matter how strongly I decide it to be true.

If the truth is relative, then nothing is false and the person that believes that truth is objective is just as valid as the person that believes that truth is relative.

Relativism is self defeating.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I don't know if I like this. How would it have helped his bid to claim Anakin if he said "THE JEDIZ R EVIL THEY TRIED TO INSEMINATE MEbut i kinda killed them"

Especially if Anakin walked in on Sidious standing over 4 bodies.

Well then I don't like it either. Ah crap, it's my own post... Now do I like it or not?

It's like, what if Pinnochio said "My nose will grow."

Originally posted by Slash_KMC

It's like, what if Pinnochio said "My nose cock will grow." Ding ding ding!

Not necessarily.

The truth can vary from A-D among an entire set of people, making it relative, but if it doesn't extend to E then E is absolutely false among that set of people.

Assuming E's say in the matter isn't relative.

A-E being potential truths (E not being held by a person within the group, A-D being held by people within the group). If truth were relative but didn't in the case of any person extend to E then E is absolutely false, while A-D are variably true.

Then E, not being held within relativity, is beyond any conversation concerning relativity.

...The point being that the concept of truth being relative does not eliminate the possibility of something being absolutely false.

I'm not denying that, but if absolutes exist I do not believe we are capable of knowing them.

Humanity is rather blind. In the context of our own experience, nothing is truly objective, even though relativism is self defeating. Its sort of funny actually.

We can't really know crap.

Originally posted by Autokrat
I'm not denying that, but if absolutes exist I do not believe we are capable of knowing them.

Humanity is rather blind. In the context of our own experience, nothing is truly objective, even though relativism is self defeating. Its sort of funny actually.

We can't really know crap. Unless you're E.

Revan Solos....HARD....

I'm sure Mace Windu would take this after a hard battle. Dooku did defeat Windu in close-combat when the two were younger, but that was before Windu created his ultimate weapon - Vaapad.

You see, Dooku's Makashi is very swift and precise. It is a very useful form when it comes to lightsaber dueling, but it has it's flaws. It cannot stand the furious strikes of Vaapad. Additionally, let's not forget that Mace can easily reflect Dooku's Force Lighting should he be foolish enough to use it. If Dooku isn't already weakened enough by his own Dark Side powers, Mace would probably end up overpowering and cutting his arm off in a lightsaber lock.

Well in the OP I stipulated that Dooku is at the height of his force powers and knowledge, as well as having his body restored to its physical prime.

As for the saber fight, I do believe Makashi could very well defeat Vaapad, with its swift precise strikes I could see Dooku surgically striking Windu to death, or removing his limbs one by one.

As for sith lightening I do believe Windu would not be able to efficiently reflect it, as his encounter of reflecting Sidious Lightening was staged, so it is all theoretical opinion on what would happen when its intent to kill Windu is true.

Anakins Djem So managed to beat down Dokus Makashi so vaapad should easily work.

It will. Regardless of that dumbass' disregard for canon.

Originally posted by Samurai100
Anakins Djem So managed to beat down Dokus Makashi so vaapad should easily work.

In what was one of the dumbest concepts in SW:

Anakin: Hey Dooku, I'm going to swing my massless lightsaber harder and that will break through you defense.

Dooku: Silly boy, didn't they teach you basic physics while your were training? E=MC2 and since your massless saber blade has a big "0" where the M is that means that E will also equal "0" because whenever you multiply something by "0" it becomes "0". The only thing that matters in a saber fight is leverage and I'm all about leverage because I'm a f*cking Makashi user.

Anakin: I hate you!

Oh and the topic of Dooku's lightning, Kenobi in AOTC caught it effortlessly on his saber and in the same movie later on, Yoda stopped it with his hands and then threw it back at him. I find it hard to believe Windu wouldn't be able to reflect it.

Originally posted by mattatom
Oh and the topic of Dooku's lightning, Kenobi in AOTC caught it effortlessly on his saber and in the same movie later on, Yoda stopped it with his hands and then threw it back at him. I find it hard to believe Windu wouldn't be able to reflect it. Naw but DOOD, this is Prime Dooku! His Lightning is like 50x more stronger when he's younger. That's true because I believe it to be.




Imagi---naaaaation...

Nothing is true. Everything is permitted. Game fail
So does that mean Sidious's Lightning vs. Mace was stronger than it was against Luke?

Yup. 175x as strong. So it is written, so it shall be.

E could clarify all truth for us and then we would have no need for vs debates.

That E's a great guy. Wish I knew how to escape the bonds of relativity and give an absolute truth for everything.

Vaapad is a style with many weaknesses it self, as all styles have, more so it depends upont he individual utilizing said style. Dooku was said to be superior to Windu in saber skill, matched only and or suprassed only by Yoda.

I do think Makashi when utlized against Vaapad could very well overcome Vaapad more so then vaapad would overcome makashi. I see Makashi as out manuevering Vaapad as well as nitpicking through its holes in defense and movement, slicing off or wounding a limg, vital spot here and there.

In combination with Dookus superior force mastery I see Windu going down after a hard fight, I also see Windu using Vaapad as his downfall for this fight.

Originally posted by Board Walker
In combination with Dookus superior force mastery I see Windu going down after a hard fight, I also see Windu using Vaapad as his downfall for this fight.

Yeah I totally agree. It's obvious that Windu's Vaapad would be his downfall! drunk

Originally posted by Board Walker
Vaapad is a style with many weaknesses it self, as all styles have, more so it depends upont he individual utilizing said style. Dooku was said to be superior to Windu in saber skill, matched only and or suprassed only by Yoda.


Pay attention to details man. Consider the context in which this was mentioned. Can one really be so obtuse? "It was said only two opponents ever bested him" (starwars.com). This implies past tense (from a somehwhat distant past - relatively speaking), not the state of current affairs.

JT, I'm not sure you should ignore Dooku's Force superiority so lightly. He has been singled out (by us) as a combatant with one of the most integrated Force/Saber techniques in the mythos. He combines offensive Force use and his excellent technique (on par with Mace at least) in a way that (arguably) exceeds Sidious's abilities. Don't count him out without thinking.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
JT, I'm not sure you should ignore Dooku's Force superiority abilities so lightly. He has been singled out (by us) as a combatant with one of the most integrated Force/Saber techniques in the mythos. He combines offensive Force use and his excellent technique (on par with Mace at least possibly) in a way that (arguably) exceeds Sidious's abilities. Don't count him out without thinking.

I agree with you. Almost.

Clone wars feats puts Mace on a higher footing than Dooku, just put that one out there. (Force wise)

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Then you clearly have no respect for canon.

I must have missed the piece of canon, that dictates that, regardless of his own skill and abilities, a Dark Side user will always lose against a Vaapad practioneer.

Or, rather than that, I read the RotS novel instead of buying interpretations from certain people who can't find the hyperbole in statement "Sidious was so powerful that he blotted out the stars". That aside, one could think about the fact, that Sidious didn't touch a lightsaber for more than a decade, while Dooku kept practicing the art of lightsaber combat and increased his - already formidable - skills with the weapon after joining the Dark Side. He even had a nice amount of actual "training" during the Clone Wars, sparring with the likes of Ventress and Grievous and duelling the likes of Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda.

And since Yoda and Mace have been mentioned. Focusing on the highest level of canon (movie / script) and taking the confrontation(s) between Dooku and Mace into consideration, one has to reach to the conclusion that - saberwise - Dooku performed better against Mace and Yoda, than Sidious did.

So it stands to reason that Mace - having problems against the like of Vastor and Depa - will not simply win this fight "because he uses Vaapad".

Originally posted by Borbarad
I must have missed the piece of canon, that dictates that, regardless of his own skill and abilities, a Dark Side user will always lose against a Vaapad practioneer.

Or, rather than that, I read the RotS novel instead of buying interpretations from certain people who can't find the hyperbole in statement "Sidious was so powerful that he blotted out the stars". That aside, one could think about the fact, that Sidious didn't touch a lightsaber for more than a decade, while Dooku kept practicing the art of lightsaber combat and increased his - already formidable - skills with the weapon after joining the Dark Side. He even had a nice amount of actual "training" during the Clone Wars, sparring with the likes of Ventress and Grievous and duelling the likes of Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda.

And since Yoda and Mace have been mentioned. Focusing on the highest level of canon (movie / script) and taking the confrontation(s) between Dooku and Mace into consideration, one has to reach to the conclusion that - saberwise - Dooku performed better against Mace and Yoda, than Sidious did.

So it stands to reason that Mace - having problems against the like of Vastor and Depa - will not simply win this fight "because he uses Vaapad".
Well you totally missed the points of the post that the Canadian quoted... Where did he say that a Dark Sider will always lose to a Vaapad user? Where was it even mentioned that Mace will win because of Vaapad?

This is what he actually said:

Originally posted by Board Walker
Vaapad > dark side really is ones opinion. As demonstrated with Mace Windu versus Sidious, where sidious easily held his own against overwhelming numbers, and saved Mace so he could manipulate the situation to seem as though he were about to be killed right when anakin arrives to sway him.

See how easy it is to have a perception?

I see vaapad just as another form, a philosoph, not better or greater then any other.

So, three things that were mentioned here:

1) "Vaapad > dark side really is ones opinion." Well, Vaapad turns a Dark Sider's own anger and rage against him and that is how Mace eventually gained the upper hand on Sidious, without it he wouldn't have won. How is it an opinion then?


2) "As demonstrated with Mace Windu versus Sidious, where sidious easily held his own against overwhelming numbers, and saved Mace so he could manipulate the situation to seem as though he were about to be killed right when anakin arrives to sway him." Sidious only 'saved' Mace after he lost the saber duel (was overpowered) in which Mace used Vaapad.


3) "I see vaapad just as another form, a philosoph, not better or greater then any other."

Yeah, I know the next quote is from Wookieepedia but its source is Shatterpoint.

"Six there were for generations of Jedi. The seventh, is not well-known. Powerful form it is. Deadliest of all. But dangerous it is, for its master as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone, to mastery has risen." - Yoda, Shatterpoint

I do believe all the saber styles are each equal with one another in the grand scheme, and that each if utilized by the individual can defeat any other saber style.

Vaapad is just another style in my perception, and as for it turning the rage and darkness of the opponent against them I do not see this as literal or real in any regard. I see it as a heavily offense as well as focusing heavily on countering other heavily offensive users.

So a mixture of form V and form III is what vaapad is, heavily offense while keeping up the attack to throw opponent off balance, as well as being heavily counter orientated, so its strength is against other heavily offense styles. But does it mean in any way he turns the darkness and dark force energy against the opponent? No.

Makashi is fast, graceful, extremely accurate, and is designed to use the opponents leverage and movement against their own self. Parries, side steps, reposte, with Mace using a flurry of many consecutive strikes (ala seeming as if its multiple blades to the untrained eye) it will leave him extremely vulnerable to precision strikes that are Dookus specialty, a loss of a hand here or there, or a fatal strike to the head.

As for the force? Dooku was very adept prior and only strengthened his knowledge int he force as time passed as well as dabbling in the dark side.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I must have missed the piece of canon, that dictates that, regardless of his own skill and abilities, a Dark Side user will always lose against a Vaapad practioneer.

Or, rather than that, I read the RotS novel instead of buying interpretations from certain people who can't find the hyperbole in statement "Sidious was so powerful that he blotted out the stars". That aside, one could think about the fact, that Sidious didn't touch a lightsaber for more than a decade, while Dooku kept practicing the art of lightsaber combat and increased his - already formidable - skills with the weapon after joining the Dark Side. He even had a nice amount of actual "training" during the Clone Wars, sparring with the likes of Ventress and Grievous and duelling the likes of Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda.

And since Yoda and Mace have been mentioned. Focusing on the highest level of canon (movie / script) and taking the confrontation(s) between Dooku and Mace into consideration, one has to reach to the conclusion that - saberwise - Dooku performed better against Mace and Yoda, than Sidious did.

So it stands to reason that Mace - having problems against the like of Vastor and Depa - will not simply win this fight "because he uses Vaapad". Slash covered that nicely, but I feel compelled to chirp in: Way to see what wasn't there, take a glib generalization as an argument, and to blow something out of proportion.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Vaapad is just another style in my perception, and as for it turning the rage and darkness of the opponent against them I do not see this as literal or real in any regard. I see it as a heavily offense as well as focusing heavily on countering other heavily offensive users.


boxed

Originally posted by Board Walker
But does it mean in any way he turns the darkness and dark force energy against the opponent? No.


ROTS novelization: Pg. 330

"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-- And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt."

I don't know if i have ever so completely destroyed an argument with a single quote in my entire time on this website.

The argument is in your perception, any destroying or domination of an argument is purely some thing you have conceived and chosen to believe in your own paradigm. I however do not share in your self fulfilled world and belief, nor am I influenced at all by your words or statement of self proclaimed victory in this so called "argument".

All I ask you to do is stop arguing with canon. BW, if you know me at all, you know i'm not worried about winning. I was merely excited that quote fit so perfectly against what you had said. If it had fit perfectly in agreement with what you had said, i would have happily posted it as well.

You said that Vapaad does not turn the darkness and force energy of the darkside user against the user, I gave you a quote that tells you exactly that it does.

Simmer down and join a discussion. No need to be so argumentative all the time.

Originally posted by Board Walker
I do believe all the saber styles are each equal with one another in the grand scheme, and that each if utilized by the individual can defeat any other saber style.

Vaapad is just another style in my perception, and as for it turning the rage and darkness of the opponent against them I do not see this as literal or real in any regard. I see it as a heavily offense as well as focusing heavily on countering other heavily offensive users.

So a mixture of form V and form III is what vaapad is, heavily offense while keeping up the attack to throw opponent off balance, as well as being heavily counter orientated, so its strength is against other heavily offense styles. But does it mean in any way he turns the darkness and dark force energy against the opponent? No.

Makashi is fast, graceful, extremely accurate, and is designed to use the opponents leverage and movement against their own self. Parries, side steps, reposte, with Mace using a flurry of many consecutive strikes (ala seeming as if its multiple blades to the untrained eye) it will leave him extremely vulnerable to precision strikes that are Dookus specialty, a loss of a hand here or there, or a fatal strike to the head.

As for the force? Dooku was very adept prior and only strengthened his knowledge int he force as time passed as well as dabbling in the dark side.

Hmmm, let us use your logic. I do not think that you live on this planet, therefore you do not. It is my opinion that you have sex with goats, therefore you do. I believe that you believe that what others should believe is that believing something is all that one needs to believe in order for it to be true.

Originally posted by truejedi
ROTS novelization: Pg. 330

"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-- And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt."

I don't know if i have ever so completely destroyed an argument with a single quote in my entire time on this website.

clapping

Arguments I see as a way to warp opinion with other opinions, I have no desire to argue, I enjoy expressing my view of reality, which i have and am doing so. I do so see vaapad without hyperbole as a style which is highly counter orientated ala channeling the opponents (darkness = momentum/leverage) against them, as well as being highly aggressive thus seeing multiple blades, due to the high speed and aggressive style of it.

I see makashi as being a style which would pick through and apart is gaping holes in defense due to its wide and random aggressive patterns of attack

Originally posted by Slash_KMC

"Six there were for generations of Jedi. The seventh, is not well-known. Powerful form it is. Deadliest of all. But dangerous it is, for its master as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone, to mastery has risen." - Yoda, Shatterpoint
Deadliest dosn't neccesarily mean greatest.

By redefining words I can prove that you are an apple (but that I am not).

The set of people that posted in the SWVF at 07:24 PM (according to my timestamp) today under the name "Board Walker" includes only abecedarian logicians.

Abecedarian logicians are apples.

You are an apple.

i dont understand if youre referring to ares post or not when you said that. he wasnt redefining anything... deadliest literally doesnt mean the greatest

he was speaking to Board Walker. If you follow his logic, it is board walker that ended up an apple.

Deadliest at the very least causes the most death. That is a pretty good characteristic to have in your lightsaber style me-thinks.

im pretty sure the word "deadliest" in general refers to potential?

i dunno...i would think of it as the most deadly, or the most likely to kill you. Just to go with the definiton of the word. Since when is deadliest and potential synonyms? I've got to say false there.

well "deadliest" is merely a level of "deadly", with deadliest literally meaning "the most deadly". the actual definition of "deadly" is apparently "likely or able to cause death", ergo it means the potential to cause death! so "deadliest" means the highest potential to cause death!

okay, that's fine. That is definitly a thing i would find most valuable in figuring out which style is best.

I would say for a weapon, a style that has the most potential to cause death is DEFINITLY the best style.

thats not necessarily true though

Originally posted by Board Walker
The argument is in your perception, any destroying or domination of an argument is purely some thing you have conceived and chosen to believe in your own paradigm. I however do not share in your self fulfilled world and belief, nor am I influenced at all by your words or statement of self proclaimed victory in this so called "argument".

M5QGkOGZubQ&feature=related

Originally posted by ares834
Deadliest dosn't neccesarily mean greatest.

But he said this:

Originally posted by Board Walker
I see vaapad just as another form, a philosoph, not better or greater then any other.

He practically says that Vaapad is equal to the other forms. But when it is described as the deadliest, how can it be equal? A superlative doesn't mean something is equal to another.

So, if Vaapad is better or greater than even one of the other forms, say Shii-Cho for example, his statement would be false.

I always thought if was referred to as the "deadliest" form because of the danger of succumbing to the dark side.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
I always thought if was referred to as the "deadliest" form because of the danger of succumbing to the dark side.

bangin

The wierdest thing about the quote is it says the 7th form not Vaapad, implying that Juyo is just as deadly.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
By redefining words I can prove that you are an apple (but that I am not).

The set of people that posted in the SWVF at 07:24 PM (according to my timestamp) today under the name "Board Walker" includes only abecedarian logicians.

Abecedarian logicians are apples.

You are an apple.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
There's an Edit button.

Aparently you are unaware of the fact that "Edit" corrects spelling mistakes; Barbecue is a correct spelling, just not used correctly.

Originally posted by Evilbigfoot
Aparently you are unaware of the fact that "Edit" corrects spelling mistakes; Barbecue is a correct spelling, just not used correctly.

doh

Originally posted by Evilbigfoot
Aparently you are unaware of the fact that "Edit" corrects spelling mistakes; Barbecue is a correct spelling, just not used correctly. Apparently you are unaware that the Edit function has a 15 minute window, and instead of posting your spelling corrections, you could simply edit your initial post.

Does it matter? I think not. I don't waste my life on fantasy (this site) as much as you, so I simply overlooked the "Edit Button."

Originally posted by Evilbigfoot
Does it matter? I think not. I don't waste my life on fantasy (this site) as much as you, so I simply overlooked the "Edit Button."

Not as much as he does, but you do waste your time here though... That's just plain stupid, go get a life.

Turnabout isn't fair when I'm already mocking myself, so don't try it.

Do something good, or don't do it at all. There's no point failing at shit you aren't going to take seriously.

I don't understand the prevalence of the "apathy/contempt for KMC-as-a-passtime" defense by lamewads. I understand that theiur wad is lame, but it doesn't explain why they feel the need to make fun of an activity they are participating in of their own volition?

It's called hypocrisy. Like how people can do stupid stuff, but it annoys them when other people do the same.

It's a convenient defence for someone who knows they've erred, but have said too much to admit it. Pride and ego are glorious attributes.

this wasn't even a big error. There is no reason not to admit you don't know what the edit button does. I didn't even know it existed for something like a year and a half after i registered.

Mace windu ****ing fantards!

Vaapad aint shit, maul used used form 7, windu used that same form and added his own personal touches to make vaapad, which can easily be outperformed by superior force wielders wielding superior precognition.

dooku wins, almost as strong in the force as anakin by the time of rots, stronger in the force than obi-wan, who blew greivous and his excess of 300 lbs droid body straight up into the air a good 15 feet, and who is also superior superior to mace windu in the force. mace windu didnt beat palps, he couldnt beat palps because sidious was fighting in slow motion on PURPOSE, its not a limit in technology when both anakin, dooku and obi-wan were fighting faster and more powerfly in their duel in episode II than windu did against palpatine in episode III, and fighting waay faster in episode III.

Notice how much more feroucious sidious was against yoda then against windu, you think that was cause he didnt have fan-made kyber crystal? wrong.

this duel wold be like chess, expect since dooku is stronger in the force he sees the ten or so moves ahead while windu only sees one move ahead, superior precognition, gave anakin, obi-wan, dooku, sidious and yoda better speed, power and equilibrium in lightsaber combat than windu and his vaapad skills.

Originally posted by \\S//
Mace windu ****ing fantards!
U ****ing dumbass shut up ur a ****ing **** ***** ****** *** ***hole.

I can type too.
Originally posted by \\S//

Vaapad aint shit, maul used used form 7, windu used that same form and added his own personal touches to make vaapad, which can easily be outperformed by superior force wielders wielding superior precognition.
You make a very insightful and well-reasoned point. The hordes of citations and reams of evidence you have supplied us with is a real credit to your intelligence and effort.

You have left out one key fact:
Both Shatterpoint and the novelization of RotS both indicate that Vaapad is more than a slightly different series of slashes and blocks. There is a fundamentally unique metaphysical aspect-- this cannot be disputed.



You make a very insightful and well-reasoned point. The hordes of citations and reams of evidence you have supplied us with is a real credit to your intelligence and effort.

You have left out one key fact:
You have not provided any evidence that Obi-Wan is, in fact, more powerful in the Force than Windu, nor have you substantiated the relationship between Dooku and Skywalker's relative strengths in the force.




You make a very insightful and well-reasoned point. The hordes of citations and reams of evidence you have supplied us with is a real credit to your intelligence and effort.

You have left out one key fact:
The actors playing Mace Windu and Darth Sidious were both much, much older than those playing Kenobi and Skywalker. The actors chose (at the last minute) to portray their own characters in their battle, lessening the utility of digital manipulation and/or stuntmen in making the fight more impressive. The key assumption that you are relying upon-- that the fights Skywalker/Kenobi and Windu/Sidious are limited only by technology and in identical ways-- is flawed.



You make a very insightful and well-reasoned point. The hordes of citations and reams of evidence you have supplied us with is a real credit to your intelligence and effort.

You have left out one key fact:
I have no idea what you are talking about because you have not provided any evidence or, hell, even context for this belligerent paragraph. I'm even lost as to the subject of your disdain; Among us, who has advocated the Kyber crystal (I'm not even sure what that is?) as an important factor in this fight?



You make a very insightful and well-reasoned point. The hordes of citations and reams of evidence you have supplied us with is a real credit to your intelligence and effort.

You have left out one key fact:
Mace is noted to have a uniquely insightful method of viewing the Force; to argue that he is the least perceptive combatant is both unfounded and wrong. He is possibly the most adept at precog of the characters you've listed.

Misconcepted people who don't fully understand something that me and my superhero background specializes on, which happens the powers and abilities of jedi, believe that theyr fantasy conception of windu so-called "superior" force abilities of sidious (he'd have to be superior to beat palps in a lightsaber duel) wont even admit that it is a misguided vaguery of perception that their feeble intelects invented and took from what they viewed when watching the films.

and i dont know why you wankers dont pick yoda instead of windu for this misconception, hes visually the fastest and most powerful lightsaber duelist we see in episodes II and III, which have resources in making every lightsaber duel in the films, whereas IV, V, VI and I have less technology and different coreographyt altogether.

and as for lucas' commentaries windu overpowered sidious' 75% performance with his 100% performance, not a big deal.

when samuel claimed windu was "the second baddest jedi in the galaxy" as of episode II, he was refering to ranking, power wise the second baddest jedi was anakin, the third baddest was obi-wan and alas windu was the fourth baddest.

Originally posted by \\S//
Misconcepted people who don't fully understand something that me and my superhero background specializes on, which happens the powers and abilities of jedi, believe that theyr fantasy conception of windu so-called "superior" force abilities of sidious (he'd have to be superior to beat palps in a lightsaber duel) wont even admit that it is a misguided vaguery of perception that their feeble intelects invented and took from what they viewed when watching the films.
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you exhibit A. This is what happens when a twelve year old is challenged.



Edit: Forgive me. "Twelve year old superhero specialist.

So your question is why we think Mace Windu is a powerful combatant, when it is clear that Yoda is a powerful combatant?



You make a very insightful and well-reasoned point. The hordes of citations and reams of evidence you have supplied us with is a real credit to your intelligence and effort.

You have left out one key fact:
You have not cited even a single source.


That's... good to know?

I'm curious as to what part of whose argument you think this undermines. Would you tell me please?

I especially like the phrase "feeble intellects."

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

U ****ing dumbass shut up ur a ****ing **** ***** ****** *** ***hole.

I can type too.


Forgive im upset at the ignorance of the biased majority of windu worshipers.



im sorry if you havent re-watched every lightsaber fight as many times as myself, and dont recognize each individual scene and the coreography and every movement which has been instilled into my masochist mind.



Please explain these indications of a metaphysical for i own but have not read shatterpoint because i hate reading.



A series indication was anakins ability to cause steel bending tremors with the force after being made the cybernetic sith known as vader, clearly which neither windu nor dooku could do.



If this is true it makes a considerable difference but is still irrelevant due to greater strength of the force equaling greater precog.



CGI actor Palps when fighting yoda>live action palps fighting windu to put it simply.



not if his power in the force is indeed inferior to all of them, and if they cared at all about using precog for combat purposes. windu has porbably specialized in precog and applied it specifically to lightsaber dueling, but so has all the other afformentioned characters, the one whom has the strongest ability in the force is the one who potentially can apply greater precognition to lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I especially like the phrase "feeble intellects."

I can't help but dwelve into the possibilty that you believe that my poor grammar is a result of my limited knowledge of the english language.

I chose to type like that to avoid a perma ban because I can easily be afformated as KOS.

KOS?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
KOS?

a banned member and a friend of mine.

Vader, Yoda and Palpatine are clearly strongest in the force.

Telekinetic tremors that bend steel and shake several floors of a giant durably framed medical building.

Tim5nU3DwIE

So if Vader cared about his ability to out-perform Jedi with superior mobility to his robotic limbs in lightsaber combat he would apply massive precognition ligthsaber combat so he sees hundreds of oves ahead of them, but he really didn't care.

Palpatine and Yoda, however, were different. Luke showed more adeptivity to lightsaber combat than anyone, even Windu and his metaphysical Vaapad, you give Luke one-on-one training in lightsaber combat from Palpatine, Yoda and Windu , you've got someone teaching him to feign frailty and inferioty to gain advantage of his opponent's mind, someone else teaching him 800 years of experience in lightsaber combat and finally someone teaching him a metaphysical form of lightsaber combat, and Luke still won't be able to beat Anakin if he had grown stronger in the force than both Palpatine and Yoda and had applied monster precognition specifically to lightsaber combat.

That's why Dooku wins.

This looks a whole lot like a reductio ad absurdum than a genuine argument to me. Do you mean to say that Vader simply didn't care when he was almost killed during the events of RoDV (immediately following RotS)? That is silly. And most possibly wrong. TK ability does not necessarily translate directly into precog ability. They are both contingent upon mastery of the Force and innate connection, but they are not locked into a one to one ratio. For instance:Corran Horn was very adept at precog and other mental powers, but not at TK.

You're operating on unproven assumptions.


This looks like a red herring to me. You are talking about Luke for some reason, and then make an assertion about Dooku. The best path I can see is:
Luke + training is
Luke + training < Anakin
Anakin >= Dooku
Dooku >= Luke
Dooku is
Dooku > Windu

You are not quite connecting all the dots, or even using all of the right dots.


If you are willing, I'd like you to take a deep breath, and then restart your presentation, without any silliness about pretending to be stupid or anything like that. Marshall your thoughts and make a valid argument.

Naturally Luke in particular could mimic saber techniques, forms and even trajectories, he was in fact more adept to lightsaber combat than Mace Windu.

Which is why I used him as an example, if he has been taught everything there is to know about lightsaber combat with the knowledge of thousands of saber techniques and forms, and millions of possible trajectories in duels, he still couldn't beat a POWERFUL Jedi Master in a lightsaber duel if he doesn't apply precognition to the duel, precognition that allowed Obi-Wan to defeat General Greivous in lightsaber combat, an individual who had superior mobility and four lightsabers all augmented by his servo motors.

Precognitive abilities are what give the Jedi their victories in combat, without precognition they can't even deflect blaster bolts.

And every aspect of physical manifestation of force techniques, force push, sith lightning, telekinesis and even precognition are moderated by the same thing, ones strength in the force.

If Dooku is stronger in the force than Windu, and if he had applied precognition specifcally to lightsaber combat, than he will see moves before Windu ever could because of the difference in power that moderates their manipulation of the force and magnitude of precognitive reactions.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
This looks a whole lot like a reductio ad absurdum than a genuine argument to me.

Not that our foolish friend does it right, but a reductio ad absurdum can be a perfectly valid/sound technique when used right.

Originally posted by \\S//
Naturally Luke in particular could mimic saber techniques, forms and even trajectories, he was in fact more adept to lightsaber combat than Mace Windu.

Which is why I used him as an example, if he has been taught everything there is to know about lightsaber combat with the knowledge of thousands of saber techniques and forms, and millions of possible trajectories in duels, he still couldn't beat a POWERFUL Jedi Master in a lightsaber duel if he doesn't apply precognition to the duel, precognition that allowed Obi-Wan to defeat General Greivous in lightsaber combat, an individual who had superior mobility and four lightsabers all augmented by his servo motors.

Precognitive abilities are what give the Jedi their victories in combat, without precognition they can't even deflect blaster bolts.

And every aspect of physical manifestation of force techniques, force push, sith lightning, telekinesis and even precognition are moderated by the same thing, ones strength in the force.

If Dooku is stronger in the force than Windu, and if he had applied precognition specifcally to lightsaber combat, than he will see moves before Windu ever could because of the difference in power that moderates their manipulation of the force and magnitude of precognitive reactions.

Ones power in the force is moderated by the following formula.



Although knowledge in the force is just as important due to the fact that techniques and powers can be used in the same way by lesser Jedi or Sith, although these lesser individuals can't potentially use it to as great of a degree asthe said greater idividuals could and there are techniques that the lesser individals are not strong enough to use but that other-more powerful Jedi or Sith-might be capable of wielding.

Sorry, the above formula has a typo in it, the following is the correct formula:

midi-chlorian count per cell (X) mass of each cell (X) mass of individual
_____________________________________________

percentage of midi-chlorians Not Yet attuned to the individual's will

As I said if you spend as much time on which Jedi can beat which Sith or vice versa as I have, then these kinds of debates will be simple, although other people have greater knowledge of other aspects of Star Wars, for example Starships or Weapons, but in this masochist field of who's the most powerful, I doubt I'll meet someone who can break it down to a formula.

But can you tell me what |z| equals when z = 5 + 7i?

i^7 = -i

Originally posted by \\S//


As I said if you spend as much time on which Jedi can beat which Sith or vice versa as I have, then these kinds of debates will be simple,

Did you really say that? Do you know where you are? Hello. You are on a star wars vs. forum.. That is where you are. You are surrounded by people who have spent as much time on which Jedi can beat each sith. Since you haven't read the books, you are much more likely to be wrong than almost every member here.

Let me put it this way. repeatedly you have made points about Sidious, Mace, and Yoda, based on your PERCEPTION of a lightsaber duel. Your perception is INFERIOR to canon novel sources.

Since you admitted you have not read the books, because you hate to read, your Star Wars knowledge, compared to everyone else on this forum is, as you put it:



or as we put, MUCH INFERIOR to ours. Read the books, come back and talk. Your interpretation of the events of the ROTS movie is inferior to what the novel says you are actually seeing. Simply because your interpretation (that Vapaad was just like Maul's Form 7, with a few differences) is countermanded by NUMEROUS sources. So your interpretation goes no further than me saying (Mace's form looked way different than Maul's). Since we have canon sources that state you are wrong. You are wrong. We have been over this many times.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
It's called hypocrisy. Like how people can do stupid stuff, but it annoys them when other people do the same.


Do you understand English? "As much time as..."

Originally posted by Jonathan Ingram
i^7 = -i

I'm not really sure what you want from this. You've expressed z in standard complex form, which is about as simplified as it gets. He could also say 5 + 7 roots of negative one, but that is about it. i^7 = -i is largely irrelevant because there are no exponents in that equation.

Originally posted by truejedi
Did you really say that? Do you know where you are? Hello. You are on a star wars vs. forum.. That is where you are. You are surrounded by people who have spent as much time on which Jedi can beat each sith. Since you haven't read the books, you are much more likely to be wrong than almost every member here.

Let me put it this way. repeatedly you have made points about Sidious, Mace, and Yoda, based on your PERCEPTION of a lightsaber duel. Your perception is INFERIOR to canon novel sources.

Since you admitted you have not read the books, because you hate to read, your Star Wars knowledge, compared to everyone else on this forum is, as you put it:



or as we put, MUCH INFERIOR to ours. Read the books, come back and talk. Your interpretation of the events of the ROTS movie is inferior to what the novel says you are actually seeing. Simply because your interpretation (that Vapaad was just like Maul's Form 7, with a few differences) is countermanded by NUMEROUS sources. So your interpretation goes no further than me saying (Mace's form looked way different than Maul's). Since we have canon sources that state you are wrong. You are wrong. We have been over this many times.

So you're saying books are more accurate than films when comparing lightsaber duels?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I'm not really sure what you want from this. You've expressed z in standard complex form, which is about as simplified as it gets. He could also say 5 + 7 roots of negative one, but that is about it. i^7 = -i is largely irrelevant because there are no exponents in that equation.

In your opinion.

Tell me what |z| equals. Now.

According to your equation, z = 5 + 7i

I haven't learned (and suspect that there is not) a method by which one can rationalize (or, as i is imaginary instead of irrational, I should say, actualize) that into a single numeric value. That is the entire point of the complex plane.

I thought. If you have world-breaking mind shattering maths that you halfway understand feel free to tell us so that I can google it and explain to you why it doesn't mean what you think it means.

but srsly: wut?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_value#Complex_numbers

I will give you exactly 10 minutes to admit your mistake.

I believe the smilie you are looking for would be this one:

That was only 7 minutes.

In your opinion.

My opinion carries the weight of the gods behind it. Your opinion carries the weight of a newt.

Lord Lucien
My opinion carries the weight of the gods behind it. Your opinion carries the weight of a newt.

Which begs the question... Are the gods overweight?

You sit on a cloudy mountain top for thousands and years and avoid putting on the pound.


But that just begs the question... will Red go in to cardiac arrest when he sees this?

Probably. Gee Ohh Dee pretty much renders him... most hateful.

Originally posted by \\S//
So you're saying books are more accurate than films when comparing lightsaber duels?
use reading comprehension, and re-read my post. You will have your answer, i have no obligation to repeat it to you.

Originally posted by Evilbigfoot
Do you understand English? "As much time as..."

No, I don't understand English. Who the **** is this English you speak about?

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
No, I don't understand English. Who the **** is this English you speak about?
English, Johnny English.

Originally posted by \\S//
Misconcepted people who don't fully understand something that me and my superhero background specializes on, which happens the powers and abilities of jedi, believe that theyr fantasy conception of windu so-called "superior" force abilities of sidious (he'd have to be superior to beat palps in a lightsaber duel) wont even admit that it is a misguided vaguery of perception that their feeble intelects invented and took from what they viewed when watching the films.



I guess the lesson here is that if you don't actually understand the words that Agent Smith is using in Matrix Revolutions then don't try and use them in an argument.

Originally posted by jaden101
I guess the lesson here is that if you don't actually understand the words that Agent Smith is using in Matrix Revolutions then don't try and use them in an argument.

lmfao! That's EXACTLY who I was quoting.

Originally posted by Autokrat

Anakin: Hey Dooku, I'm going to swing my massless lightsaber harder and that will break through you defense.

Dooku: Silly boy, didn't they teach you basic physics while your were training? E=MC2 and since your massless saber blade has a big "0" where the M is that means that E will also equal "0" because whenever you multiply something by "0" it becomes "0". The only thing that matters in a saber fight is leverage and I'm all about leverage because I'm a f*cking Makashi user.

Anakin: I hate you!

Hilarious.

Refers to the interchangeability of matter and energy, not kinetic energy. You're looking for:
Kinetic energy=mv^s

actually, Force is what matters here,
so you are looking for

F=ma

finding a involves C though.

Are you all physicists or something?
Force is indeed mass multiplied by acceleration, but seeing how the plasma beam from lightsabers is massless, there won't be any force in a lightsaber swing.

Originally posted by truejedi
actually, Force is what matters here,
so you are looking for

F=ma

finding a involves C though.

touche

Dark Randezvous clearly states that Count Dooku and Mace Windu were equals on even terms, but that Dooku was his superior while emersed in the Dark Side, in Shatterpoint Mace Windu believes that he could only have defeated Count Dooku by surprise, although this might have somtheing to do with Jango Fett being there.

I think putting Dooku in his prime condition gives him the edge in this.

Dooku had a slight edge over Yoda in their second duel but in both their duels it ultimately ended in a stalemate, possibly because Yoda didn't want Dooku dead but captured, whereas Windu defeated Palpatine although not without help.

Yoda clearly had an edge on Sidious in their duel in the Senate, and eventually in the duel Palpatine abandoned his saber. In the end Windu and Dooku are at even playing fields, but I stress that Dooku being in his physical prime might give him the edge, although it is questionable whether the deformed Palpatine was able to move like he did when he wasn't deformed against Windu, this could go either way, but I say Dooku barely if he's in his prime and retains all of his knowledge and skill.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Refers to the interchangeability of matter and energy, not kinetic energy. You're looking for:
Kinetic energy=mv^s

This is why I get for never taking physics.

Originally posted by Anakin4Ever
Are you all physicists or something?
Force is indeed mass multiplied by acceleration, but seeing how the plasma beam from lightsabers is massless, there won't be any force in a lightsaber swing.

lol, i was going to be an electrical engineer for 3 years... until i rediscovered the theatre.

I'm studying Physics for A Level...

Can you take those in Canada? I thought it was just a UK thing.

Originally posted by Jonathan Ingram
Can you take those in Canada? I thought it was just a UK thing. I'm in the UK for my education, I was born in Canada.

Mace Windu w/ vapaad and shatterpoint master Dooku is done, it would be a great battle tho.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Essentially it's still Vaapad>Dark Side. So Mace. Vaapad>Darkside? let's test this theory.
Sidious=darkside
Windu=Vaapad+Samuel L. Jackson
Windu+3 skilled jedi masters=the gang
Sidious>the gang
Darkside is way way way> vaapad
Sorry friend, your theory needs some tweaking

except for:

Windu defeated Sidious fair and square (c) George Lucas.

Originally posted by Amazing Vrayo!!
Vaapad>Darkside? let's test this theory.
Sidious=darkside
Windu=Vaapad+Samuel L. Jackson
Windu+3 skilled jedi masters=the gang
Sidious>the gang
Darkside is way way way> vaapad
Sorry friend, your theory needs some tweaking
nah.

Originally posted by Amazing Vrayo!!

Sidious>the gang


But not Windu.

1/4th of the gang > Sidious.

Windu> Sidious. I'd take him over Dooku any day. Dooku in his physical prime had nowhere near the power he was given from the darkside in his later years, by his own mouth.

Dooku in his prime was a Jedi, a good Jedi, but he didn't have the power of the darkside at his disposal.