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Okay Ive seen many versus and debate topics but I have always come across this one as very difficult to come to a conclusion...I know there are past precedents and debates on this but im here to hold a respectable debate so I really do not want biased opinions and remarks to please be open minded to all arguements...and im very new here so the way im presenting myself is very important

please I hope there will be many participants

This fight is obviously a free for all and there will be no teaming up or what ifs

Goku: His abilities are endless carrying from SS1-SS4 in which his saiyan roots have blessed him with. Do not criticize the shows overall presentation from DB-DBGT because to many the show and manga story seems primitive to some but thats not what this debate is about. Goku is the basis of friendly competition and he will need to go out of his way to fight these powerful foes. His saiyan bloodlust will have to be awakened in his SS4 state of power which is very very powerful. As you know or may not know Goku can travel through dimensions through his insant transmission technique. Early on this technique is very difficult but by the time he is in SS4 this is just as natural as breathing. His strength is sometimes questioned by him barely being able to lift buildings but you will have to realize is that DBGT is very inconsistent with DBZ and DB when it comes to power but overall strength would not matter as much as pure power. Saiyans get stronger after every battle whether it is a loss or win but in this battle Goku does not have that much of a choice, he has to win. Broly blew up a galaxy, Broly lost to Goku when Goku asked for the energy of the Z fighters. Goku SS4 is much much stronger than Broly which is agreeable that SS4 is a much bigger galaxy buster than Broly. Now, Frieza blew up a planet with a death ball in her basic form which means SS4 Goku could have blew up Planet Vegeta by sneezing (lol not rly). Frieza survived a planet exploding barely with an inch of her life which means Goku can take much more damage than that. GT goku when he was a little kid again toyed with cell and frieza in hell. I think this is enough on Goku, further info will be brought up during the potential debate.

Pyron: (Expert Needed)

Dark Schneider: (Expert Needed)

Thank You

lol my choice is Goku by the way

Goku is a best a galaxy level threat, and that's being generous. Both Pyron and Dark Schneider are universal, if not multiversal, threats. Goku does not have a chance of wining here.

Perfect lets get started, I would love some info on both Pyron and Dark Schneider because taking one persons word on it is not smart so if some one could give me a good overview on both DS and Pyron that would be much appreciated

Broly is a galaxy buster at best, but SS4 Goku has enough power to destroy something greater than just a galaxy

Ive just read the versus rules and im sorry for doing a 1v1v1...but this is really if Goku can beat DS and if he can, can he beat pyron?

so plz dont close this

I'm afraid all my knowledge is second-hand as well, but I know that Pyron is a force almost beyond the universe. He maniuplates cosmic entities with casual ease, or so I've heard.

Dark Schneider, if I'm thinking of the right person, is just as bad, if not even worse. I'm gonna see if I can't get Endless Mike in here, he knows more about these characters than I do.

That would be great thank you

Goku (any form) is a non-factor. Heck, SSJ Vegito would be a non-factor most likely.

PS: 1v1v1 matches can become tedious, so for the sake of this thread TC, please at least remove Goku.

im sorry i cant do that...ive made it clear that im here to defend goku and his power...and when you leave a reply have some sort of evidence and reason behind it so i can take that to account for my own knowledge

Originally posted by DBZDefender
im sorry i cant do that...ive made it clear that im here to defend goku and his power...and when you leave a reply have some sort of evidence and reason behind it so i can take that to account for my own knowledge Then at least put Gokou in a match he has any chance of being a factor in. He's outgunned, and useless in this match.

Don't know much about the other two people but I know enough to know that Gokou is a non-factor, and gets killed easily.

if you dont know much about the other people how can you back up your statement? this is making it hard for me to argue

Originally posted by DBZDefender
if you dont know much about the other people how can you back up your statement? this is making it hard for me to argue Because I've seen some things DS and Pyron can do from other versus threads. Pyron from the various DBZ vs Pyron threads.

He may not know much about those two characters, but he knows that Goku can't do much against them.
The only chance he has at winning this thing is if he stands aside and the other two take each other out.

As for Goku trying to hurt DS, he can't. DS can regenerate any damage he suffers, and Goku does not have the ability to truly defeat him.

Regeneration: http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/4868/dstoughness11fr2.jpg

That's DS regenerating his head.

Doesn't DS have energy nullifying shields also?

i heard that DS can be defeated by defeating him in three other dimensions...so gokus instant transmission can make him go to each dimension and vaporize each DS because DS cannot regenerate if all his matter is vaporized at once with an energy blast of some sort...

am i wrong? if so continue with an arguement

Originally posted by DBZDefender
i heard that DS can be defeated by defeating him in three other dimensions...so gokus instant transmission can make him go to each dimension and vaporize each DS because DS cannot regenerate if all his matter is vaporized at once with an energy blast of some sort...

am i wrong? if so continue with an arguement While I can't deny or confirm the DS part, IT cannot traverse dimensions...Going from King Kai's planet to Earth or Kaioshin's planet to Earth isn't dimension hopping.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
As for Goku trying to hurt DS, he can't. DS can regenerate any damage he suffers,

This isnt about doing minor wounds to DS to make him give up lol that would be stupid...majin buu could regenerate and goku obliterated him all at once with a spirit bomb...for DS it either might take less or more

Originally posted by Kento
While I can't deny or confirm the DS part, IT cannot traverse dimensions...Going from King Kai's planet to Earth or Kaioshin's planet to Earth isn't dimension hopping.

In Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan or even in The Return of Cooler Goku is seen in another dimension for a time...i cannot give you a pic but i a would not make a false statement

Originally posted by DBZDefender
This isnt about doing minor wounds to DS to make him give up lol that would be stupid...majin buu could regenerate and goku obliterated him all at once with a spirit bomb...for DS it either might take less or more Even if Spirit Bomb was even in the least a way that could work, Gokou would never get one strong enough to do anything nor have the time before he's dead from either DS or Pyron.Originally posted by DBZDefender
In Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan or even in The Return of Cooler Goku is seen in another dimension for a time...i cannot give you a pic but i a would not make a false statement Firstly both non-canon, and in the Broli movie (as I can't recall Cooler movie) he is never shown in a different dimension. We just see what it looks like when he's teleporting with IT.

ok since those are non-canon ill leave the dimension stuff aside....but i never said that goku would have to do a spirit bomb to defeat DS...he has much other attacks in his arsenal that are of vaporizing matter material

Originally posted by DBZDefender
In Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan or even in The Return of Cooler Goku is seen in another dimension for a time...i cannot give you a pic but i a would not make a false statement

Movies are non-canon.

Originally posted by DBZDefender
This isnt about doing minor wounds to DS to make him give up lol that would be stupid...majin buu could regenerate and goku obliterated him all at once with a spirit bomb...for DS it either might take less or more

Oh? So how would a spirit bomb destroy DS, when he cannot be truly destroyed by it in the first place? He'll just regenerate.

Originally posted by DBZDefender
ok since those are non-canon ill leave the dimension stuff aside....but i never said that goku would have to do a spirit bomb to defeat DS...he has much other attacks in his arsenal that are of vaporizing matter material

Doesn't matter. DS can regenerate from any physical damage. Even if his physical body is obliterated, he'll still regenerate, for he cannot truly be defeated, not unless his Eternal Atoms are destroyed. Goku doesn't have the ability to destroy those.

Doesn't DS even have a large speed advantage? Both him and Pyron.

how can he regenerate when there is no matter there at all?...and can you inform me more about these "eternal atoms"?...a super kamehameha could do the job as to vaporizing someone completely do to the enourmous amount of condensed ki energy into a wave...but this is irrelevent if i dont know what eternal atoms are...inform me plz

Originally posted by XanatosForever
Goku is a best a galaxy level threat, and that's being generous. Both Pyron and Dark Schneider are universal, if not multiversal, threats. Goku does not have a chance of wining here.

DS isn't multi-versal, he most likely is universal, or lower.

If (anime) Pyron is multi-versal, this is just one big stomp for Pyron.

Originally posted by Kento
Doesn't DS even have a large speed advantage? Both him and Pyron.

how is that?

If (anime) Pyron is multiversal, this is just one big stomp for Pyron.

isnt (anime) Pyron non-canon?

Originally posted by DBZDefender
how is that? Pyron is over light speed, I have no idea about DS so I was just asking. And Gokou is far from light speed unless he's using IT but that doesn't help to fight.

how is goku far from light speed when his battles as SS3 consist of him being unhittable due to his mastery of IT and speed

and im pretty sure vanishing and appearing behind your opponent in a blink of an eye is considered pretty dang fast lol

Originally posted by Kento
Doesn't DS even have a large speed advantage? Both him and Pyron.

I don't know how speed factors in for Pyron. Also, one quick thing, is this anime Pyron or game Pyron? I have no idea what anime Pyron is capable of, but if it's game Pyron (true form), it's Pyron's victory.

DS is FTL iirc. I can't recall properly though.

Originally posted by DBZDefender
how is that?
DS can move at speeds that are faster than the speed of light. Goku can't.

Originally posted by DBZDefender
how can he regenerate when there is no matter there at all?...and can you inform me more about these "eternal atoms"?...a super kamehameha could do the job as to vaporizing someone completely do to the enourmous amount of condensed ki energy into a wave...but this is irrelevent if i dont know what eternal atoms are...inform me plz

Erm, basically even if a spiritual being's physical body is destroyed, they'll still regenerate, since they have two bodies that exist on separate planes/dimension. So in order to truly kill/defeat a spiritual being (which DS is), you have to destroy their bodies that are on the other planes. In addition to that, you have to destroy their eternal atoms, which is their true core.

how do you get to these "other planes"? Also it is not (game) Pyron because that would not be allowed in this section of the forum since it is anime/manga only...also you do not know that goku cant move at the speed of light because it is never measured or mentioned its just obvious that goku can since he vanishes and appears at will

Originally posted by DBZDefender
isnt (anime) Pyron non-canon?

Yes, but this is the Anime versus forum, and you have included Pyron in this thread. Therefore, I'm assuming you are using the Anime version. If you are using the Game (Canon) version, he is multi-versal.

so pyron is multi-versal which makes him how big?

Originally posted by DBZDefender
how do you get to these "other planes"? Also it is not (game) Pyron because that would not be allowed in this section of the forum since it is anime/manga only...also you do not know that goku cant move at the speed of light because it is never measured or mentioned its just obvious that goku can since he vanishes and appears at will

All you need to know is that Goku can't. He doesn't possess the ability to destroy the bodies on those two other planes, let alone the 3 atoms of DS. They simply can't be destroyed through physical means.

That's Instant Transmission.

Originally posted by DBZDefender
so pyron is multi-versal which makes him how big?
WUT?

so is DS immortal?

anyway we'll continue this tommorow cuz i have to sleep

goodnight

ok im back and so far with all the evidence it seems that DS is immortal making him a god of some sort but if im wrong and there is a way he can die than say it...um well pyron we havent been hearing much about so i hope to find more on him and we...this entire time...have been looking at how goku can beat pyron and/or DS but how can they beat goku?

Originally posted by DBZDefender
how is goku far from light speed when his battles as SS3 consist of him being unhittable due to his mastery of IT and speed Gokou has been hit a lot when fighting even after learning IT...even at ssj3. He has never been unable to be hit. Originally posted by DBZDefender
also you do not know that goku cant move at the speed of light because it is never measured or mentioned its just obvious that goku can since he vanishes and appears at will Gotenks is stronger than Gokou, and has a quantifiable speed feat that puts him below light. Originally posted by DBZDefender
and im pretty sure vanishing and appearing behind your opponent in a blink of an eye is considered pretty dang fast lol Which pretty much happens in every fighting anime no matter the level of power. Even Wolverine has done things like that iirc.Originally posted by DBZDefender
ok im back and so far with all the evidence it seems that DS is immortal making him a god of some sort but if im wrong and there is a way he can die than say it...um well pyron we havent been hearing much about so i hope to find more on him and we...this entire time...have been looking at how goku can beat pyron and/or DS but how can they beat goku? By being a lot more powerful. Gokou at his strongest is still only planet buster. The others fight on a much grander scale, and are much faster. Gokou doesn't have the defense, the strength, nor the speed to hope to compete.

Goku cannot be a planet buster since frieza blew up a planet in her base form and Goku at SS4 is in a whole other scale of power compared to frieza...and when has it

"Gotanks a character of who is much slower then Goku travels the distance around the world (24,859.82 miles) many times within 4 sec and light is able to travel around the planet about 9 times per second. If Gotanks a much lesser character is able to travel the planet 1/9 light speed, before the discovery of SS4 in DBGT Goku is highly likely to be able to travel faster than the illogical speed of light"

this quote is evidence that goku is in fact faster than light

now tell me how DS is more powerful?

Not sure whats going on but just wanted to add to ^ that Goku can just use instant transmission. Faster then light

thanks bloodrain i need some sort of comrade so we can use both of our knowledge to defend the true power of goku with facts and fanboyism

fanboyism... >.>

Ah hell why not, may as well see how far this goes. DS can regen from all wounds besides atomising, then cant Gok do that.

Btw all i know is that Pyron and DS are insanely powerful :/ so... yeah

so is goku dont forget about him...i mean the fights with kid buu, baby, and the shenrons are just ridiculous...ive watched pyron fights and hes powerful too and all but goku to me is just the greatest and ill prove it with facts...DS is just very difficult to kill but goku can hold his own against him until he found a way to defeat him

Originally posted by DBZDefender
Goku cannot be a planet buster since frieza blew up a planet in her base form and Goku at SS4 is in a whole other scale of power compared to frieza...and when has it

"Gotanks a character of who is much slower then Goku travels the distance around the world (24,859.82 miles) many times within 4 sec and light is able to travel around the planet about 9 times per second. If Gotanks a much lesser character is able to travel the planet 1/9 light speed, before the discovery of SS4 in DBGT Goku is highly likely to be able to travel faster than the illogical speed of light"

this quote is evidence that goku is in fact faster than light

now tell me how DS is more powerful? Freeza started a chain reaction. Kid Buu is on a whole different scale than Freeza and his blast was purely planetary, which neither Gokou nor Vegeta could stop.

Where the heck did you even get that quote....Gotenks for one is stronger than Gokou, which automatically makes him faster. Second Gotenks travels the planet 'a few dozen times' according to himself all in the manner of 29 minutes. Then takes a minute to get to Fat Buu's house from where he ran from Piccolo. Nowhere close to light.

I've already said I only know what I've heard about DS. Who if Phoenix is right is able to destroy a universe. Which puts him able to kill Gokou with any stray blast. DS is faster than light, which puts him faster than Gokou can hope to react. And he has energy nullifying fields which leaves Gokou pretty much useless even if he could hope to hurt DS.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Not sure whats going on but just wanted to add to ^ that Goku can just use instant transmission. Faster then light Because that's so useful in a fight...besides running away. It doesn't up his actual speed..

IT is useful in a fight just watch when goku fights kid buu he uses it to get behind him and it doesnt even seem like it took him long at all to put his two fingers on his forehead...

now gotenks SS3 is not atronger than Goku SS3 because only Mystic Gohan is stronger than SS3 Goku

if im wrong then show me some proof

Soz didnt read above and know it was for speed feats, was simply adding to his movepool. In his fights its actually used a few times in fight. Eg Charge>teleport>blast.

Problem here being how heigh the others durability is.

and also even if gotenks is stronger than SS3 goku what about SS4 goku...in this case SS4 Goku would be twice as fast as SS3 gotenks making him indeed faster than light

the warp kamehameha which shows goku mastering the IT in Full Power SS form so in SS4 IT would be as easy as breathing

DS rapes, Goku is a non - factor and Pyron has no way to get past Dispell Bound.

Originally posted by DBZDefender
IT is useful in a fight just watch when goku fights kid buu he uses it to get behind him and it doesnt even seem like it took him long at all to put his two fingers on his forehead...

now gotenks SS3 is not atronger than Goku SS3 because only Mystic Gohan is stronger than SS3 Goku

if im wrong then show me some proof He is fighting people in his speed range of course it works.

Gokou at ssj3 was never stronger than Super Buu...Originally posted by DBZDefender
and also even if gotenks is stronger than SS3 goku what about SS4 goku...in this case SS4 Goku would be twice as fast as SS3 gotenks making him indeed faster than light Um..twice as fast would never make ssj4 Gokou close to light speed. Gotenks at his best was calculated at like 1% of Light speed..

DS casually punched Konron and split the earth in the process, he will kill Goku in one punch. Something tells me you have not read Bastard!! at all?

Also GT is non-canon

how is GT non canon when it is indeed an anime that akira was associated in someway

anyway guys its been fun but i have to leave for now so ill be back to continue this later

Originally posted by DBZDefender
how is GT non canon when it is indeed an anime that akira was associated in someway

anyway guys its been fun but i have to leave for now so ill be back to continue this later Akira was somewhat associated with the anime, and with the new OVA. But none of them are canon either. Even then nothing in GT helps the case at all.

Do you know anything about both characters by the chance since it seems like you don't know anything about DS. DS is way too powerful, and he is way above Goku's level. He has fire spells that will turn Goku into dust, or will freeze him at Absolute Zero.

Originally posted by Kento
Akira was somewhat associated with the anime, and with the new OVA. But none of them are canon either. Even then nothing in GT helps the case at all.
The new OVA isn't canon?

Originally posted by King Kandy
The new OVA isn't canon? Don't really see why it would be as Vegeta was never once known to have a brother. Not to mention it screws up Goten and Trunks power level.

Originally posted by Kento
Don't really see why it would be as Vegeta was never once known to have a brother. Not to mention it screws up Goten and Trunks power level.
Yeah, Vegeta was never shown to have a brother... UP UNTIL THE OVA!

That's like saying "the buu arc is non canon, because there was never shown to be any magical pink beings before that".

The thing was totally written by Toriyama, every bit of it, so I don't see why it would be non-canon.

okay im bak...

goku is more durable than you guys think since he pushes back energy sphere attacks that are pure condensed energy the size of planets such as numerous death balls...also, goku SS3 once did a normal one handed energy wave that he lauched at the ground later coming out the other side of the planet...goku shows weakness in str when he hasent ate or when he fights numerous battles in a row such as the battles with super buu until he finally had to fight kid buu...

You guys are failing to see how strong goku really is

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah, Vegeta was never shown to have a brother... UP UNTIL THE OVA!

That's like saying "the buu arc is non canon, because there was never shown to be any magical pink beings before that".

The thing was totally written by Toriyama, every bit of it, so I don't see why it would be non-canon. Except, There has been more to the story after that. It was just one off OVA. Akira did Neko Majin but not going to say Freeza had a son or anything either. It was also said plenty of times only 4 saiyans ever survived. By Vegeta himself. Having new villains appear has nothing to do with suddenly having new saiyans appear.
Originally posted by DBZDefender
okay im bak...

goku is more durable than you guys think since he pushes back energy sphere attacks that are pure condensed energy the size of planets such as numerous death balls...also, goku SS3 once did a normal one handed energy wave that he lauched at the ground later coming out the other side of the planet...goku shows weakness in str when he hasent ate or when he fights numerous battles in a row such as the battles with super buu until he finally had to fight kid buu...

You guys are failing to see how strong goku really is I think you're confusing Buu and Gohan's fight with something Gokou didn't do.

Gokou never fought numerous battles in the Buu Saga. He doesn't fight Super Buu, well 'cept in the anime, besides when he's fused with Vegeta.

Originally posted by DBZDefender
okay im bak...

goku is more durable than you guys think since he pushes back energy sphere attacks that are pure condensed energy the size of planets such as numerous death balls...also, goku SS3 once did a normal one handed energy wave that he lauched at the ground later coming out the other side of the planet...goku shows weakness in str when he hasent ate or when he fights numerous battles in a row such as the battles with super buu until he finally had to fight kid buu...

You guys are failing to see how strong goku really is

Goku doesn't stand a chance. I've said it before, he doesn't have the ability to truly defeat DS.
We're not underestimating Goku's power, you are severely underestimating DS and Pyron. Not to mention, you are overrating Goku if you think he can handle DS and Pyron.

If you want to know more about DS, here is his respect thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=460211&pagenumber=1

"Dark Schneider is immortal " from the link u gave me.....

in that case its impossible to kill him so hes basically out of the question

though pyron still hasent shown any reason that he is better than goku because we have been mainly focusing on DS

I found out that DS is not as fast as the speed of light (give me some proof if he is) and also that DS is a part of someone else and whenever he kisses a girl he switches into another person...idk oh well since he is immortal then theres no point of continuing with DS...

Pyron though still needs an explanation in whether he can beat goku

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ8bh-uiFlQ

i am very lucky i found this video...connecting all the facts in this video it is indeed enough evidence showing how powerful goku really is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKYhUp0e-V8

^^just to pump up the goku side lol^^^

Originally posted by DBZDefender
"Dark Schneider is immortal " from the link u gave me.....

in that case its impossible to kill him so hes basically out of the question

though pyron still hasent shown any reason that he is better than goku because we have been mainly focusing on DS

He eats planets, Goku loses.

Originally posted by DBZDefender
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ8bh-uiFlQ

i am very lucky i found this video...connecting all the facts in this video it is indeed enough evidence showing how powerful goku really is

Originally posted by DBZDefender
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKYhUp0e-V8

^^just to pump up the goku side lol^^^

Dude, Superman has nothing to do with this.

And what's the point of the video #2? only an AMV of Goku and doesn't show any proof he is stronger than Dark Schneider.

DS also has Judas Priest which he can used to destroy Goku's soul, or suck him up with Black Sabbath.

oh my bad wrong video...ill try to find the other one

I am not a Pyron expert so I am only defending DS here.

BTW, you are not a respectable debater if you argue one side would win without even knowing the capabilities of the other side.

Originally posted by DBZDefender
how is GT non canon when it is indeed an anime that akira was associated in someway

All he did was contribute a few character designs. He didn't write the GT series itself, it's just a non-canon continuation by Toei. The original manga is the only canon.



Never happened. There has never been an energy attack the size of a planet in the manga.



Never happened. Post a manga scan (you can't because it doesn't exist)



Seraph Angels are stated to be FTL (they flew across the galaxy in a few years making them at least tens of thousands of times lightspeed). Michael was guarding the Black Abyss which was stated to be 28,000 light-years away from earth and it took her 2 years to reach earth. That's 14,000 times lightspeed. DS was speedblitzing them.

This scan is in French but you can see it clearly says they are faster than light and easily planetbusters:

http://i48.tinypic.com/20fvyog.jpg


Also keep in mind the anime is non-canon, only the manga is canon so the only acceptable evidence is manga evidence.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Never happened. Post a manga scan (you can't because it doesn't exist) http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v41/c016/2.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v41/c016/3.html

That's the only thing I can think of that he means, except it was Gohan, and Buu nothing to do with Gokou.

Pyron's ture form is stated to be the size of a galaxy IIRC? He will crush Goku like a bug.

Seraph Angels are stated to be FTL in Vol. 21 (I think, I have not got that far yet into the series), DS is FTL in both combat, and travel speed. One punch from DS will kill Goku, and he has too many spells that can kill Goku also.

DS is pretty much a evil version of Doctor Strange, and Goku has nothing that can put him down.

1. Pyron is not an anime or manga character

2. If he was, I would side with him (MY OPINION), cuz I don't see how any of the 2 others can hurt him, or will even know he is there. Pyron can not be seen by the naked eye and can not be sensed, which is why he had to create an energy pulse through out the world so that every one would know he had come to earth. He also has an orbital span of 400,000 Light Years, and has 100% control over what else is in that Span. The thing can shrink the Big Dipper and Teleport it on to the battle field and can move faster than the speed of light with the "Galaxy Trip".

I don't really feel like mentioning all of Pyron's feats but Pyron's capacity for power and ability will eventually lead to him "holding the entire universe in the palm of his hand".