Tidus Vs. Vaan

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



GrieverSquall
Ok... I wanted to create a new topic, this is the first one since I'm new here. This is Tidus Vs. Vaan. Who would win?


http://quizilla.teennick.com/user_images/1034138572_acterTidus.jpg

http://www.galbadiax.com/ff12/images/vaan.jpg

Well... After playing both games (Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy XII)
I will begin analyzing the beginning of each one.

Tidus: Never wielded a sword before FFX, meaning that never had any training or experiences in battle before reaching Spira.

Vaan: Was already showing swords skills before of the beginning of the game when we see him killing monsters in the sewers. We don't exactly know from when he began wielding a sword though. He surely has no special training but he was training by himself.

Both 17 years old at the begginig of their games.

(Sorry my bad English) Well, I think Vaan would win. Give me your opinion.

fascistcrusader
Tidus is a highly trained athlete with above average sword skill. Vaan can... I don't know, accessorize better? Tidus takes it handily.

wakkawakkawakka
Well Vaan could just summon Zodiark and obliterate Tidus. However since Tidus can break the Hp and Damage limits, he would kind of oneshot Vaan. I don't know who wins but Tidus has more backing him up so far.

Just for kicks thought I say Vaan would win because he actually exists. laughing out loud

GrieverSquall
A highly trained athlete to play Blitzball. That doesn't have relevance if we're talking about a fight.



What are you talking about? You can't use Gameplay here.

fascistcrusader
I mean accessorize the fashion sense. Vaan is better at picking out purses than Tidus.

GrieverSquall
Uh... Ah, I see.

Well, seeing the current facts, Tidus is inexperienced with swords at the beginning. Vaan, on the other hand, was already showing swords feats. For now Vaan takes this.

fascistcrusader
Vann had no physical training, he's just a wimp who liked to play with swords. Tidus, on the other hand, was a hardened athlete with a natural talent for using a blade. Just because he hadn't picked one up doesn't mean he didn't get better than Vann real quick.

This is like pitting John Elway with a knack for swordplay against a scrawny basement dweller who thinks he cools because he collects knives.

GrieverSquall
You have totally no evidence to prove that. Vaan have a good musculature, it seems he had physical training. Probably he has spent years killing monsters in the sewers training by himself. No one knows, but it is very likely.



Who cares if he's an athlete? It's like giving a sword to a Football Player and putting it to fight against someone who has already training and experience killing monsters. Talking about talent, I think both are talented.

fascistcrusader
Vaan has all the musculature of Adam Lambert. And the training of an athlete makes Tidus stronger physically, which is why you never want to get in a fight with an NFL linebacker. Tidus didn't have training before FF X, but by the end of it he's incredibly skilled, showing that he had latent talent with the weapon.

In my opinion, Tidus being stronger and a naturally talented swordsman gives him the win. He's not Squall, Cloud or Cecil, but he's not bad either.

GrieverSquall
Uh... Yeah, sure. Tidus has the musculature of Meg Ryan... Seriously, seeing at both characters, they have the same amount of musculature, don't deny this.



Very good reasoning. BUT... If both were about to fight without weapons, Vaan owns Tidus, hands down. Tidus had sport training, he has built his body as any athlete would do, but that doesn't mean he would win in a sword fight. Vaan had to fight bare hand against three Seeq guys and won, if one of those fat guys would hit you in the face you would lose consciousness.



But you are comparing Tidus after Final Fantasy X here. Vaan is much stronger in Revenant Wings, he's an Sky Pirate and also a very talented swordsman as well. I'm seeing how they began... Vaan as far as I know started with more experience than Tidus, he would win.



I've realized that many people hates Vaan, but we don't have to underestimate him, I don't like him much as character, but he's indeed a good fighter. I have proved how Vaan is also talented.

Sin_Volvagia
Vaan can make fireballs and whirlwinds..... or not sad

GrieverSquall
His Quickenings are very powerful.

wakkawakkawakka
Vaan can summon a universe destroying esper...sort of. I want to know which Vaan are we using anyway. Cause if its the one in Revenant Wings than he wins.

However Tidus would kill Vaan if you were to compare game mechanics.

GrieverSquall
We're using the Vaan from Final Fantasy XII. I am putting it in pair with Tidus since both are similar, they're both 17 years old and both began with not much training with swords, though Vaan have the upper hand in this for various reasons I have explained before.
Besides, if we count the Quickenings and Espers, Tidus is owned by a long shot. Vaan is a very strong character, hated by most of the fans and very underestimated. He lacks personality in Final Fantasy XII, but he explains that he's just following Ashe to find his own answers and purposes, meaning that he's not the main focus on the story, let's say Vaan is just the second protagonist, Ashe is the true one. In Revenant Wings, his personality changes, he's like the leader and yes, he's stronger.

If we talk about Gameplay Tidus would kill Vaan with one hit.

FWahMaN
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
I mean accessorize the fashion sense. Vaan is better at picking out purses than Tidus. This made me die so hard laughing...

And Tidus came first, hence Vaan is a rip-off...and loses the fight anyway. Also I don't think Vaan looks fully human. He most likely looks like one of those human animal hybrids you see in MMORPG's or Hyrulians from LoZ.

LLLLLink
Tidus.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by LLLLLink
Tidus.

Why?

LLLLLink
He looks older, lol.

I'm mostly educated about FF7. The rest, I have no idea unless I ask someone.

GrieverSquall
Ah, ok.

LLLLLink
I've never played a FF game, but I know a lot about 7 from ACC, and my friend explaining the ENTIRE story in detail for hours. That, and arguing with him about Link vs Cloud. That's how I learned all of their skills and lore.

GrieverSquall
What? You never did...? I thought you were a fan. I see... Well, I've played some of the games but not all. For example, I never played Final Fantasy IV before, but I know a bit about the story since I love to read and search for information.

LLLLLink
Well, I know about the whole of FF7, some of 8, some info on Terra, and a scintilla on Cecil.

GrieverSquall
Same here. Though I don't know anything about Final Fantasy 1, I'm playing the game now, I hope to learn more soon.

Well, returning to the topic, Vaan wins this, unless someone can add some rational argument to the debate.

fascistcrusader
Griever you've never played IV? That's one of the best in the series, in my personal top 3. Get the DS version as I feel it's the definitive IV experience.

GrieverSquall
Honestly no. I have the game though, still I haven't played it... I have a Game Boy Advance Emulator to play.

Kirikaze Fuuma
I'm not sure about this but for now I'll say Vaan. He can use pyroclasm which is his strongest quickening and his weakest quickening create a (IIRC) blue spiral ended with giant energy pillar. even he can create a giant whirlwind covered with white thunder. and IIRC I haven't seen any attack Tidus created is as strong as that. Correct me if I wrong.

Nephthys
Tidus wins becuase he was in Dissidia and showed some skills above Vaan there.

Yep: 4.18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfKcfNkoZjI

1.30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At-xJWa8JEk

Nephthys
That is, if Dissidia is to be considered canon. Which would be bad for Sephiroth fans as Cloud kicks his ass twice.

MadMel
sephy was most likely holding back, as he always does erm

as for this match ill say tidus

Nephthys
Yeah, I'm sure he'd hold back against the guy he's lost 3 times in a row against. erm

He either lost or he's a moron.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Nephthys
Tidus wins becuase he was in Dissidia and showed some skills above Vaan there.

Yep: 4.18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfKcfNkoZjI

1.30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At-xJWa8JEk

He hasn't shown any skills above Vaan, Vaan it is not introduced in Dissidia. I've noticed you are making the same kind of argument that the Final Fantasy VII fans did to Cloud when he was against Squall. Squall hadn't a movie, so they thought Cloud was far stronger than him just because of the feats he showed in Advent Children. Totally wrong. Plus, Tidus is just jumping and evading Kuja attacks, we don't even see his abilities swinging the sword and if you take in consideration Gabranth, he's FAR stronger than Tidus inside and outside Dissidia, so imagine Vaan as something like that.

Gabranth's EX-Burst is represented as Basch's Quickenings in Dissidia.
Let's compare:

Tidus Ex-Burst:

1y8gQKhhAHs

Gabranth's:

PSHkZm5U8wQ

And these are Vaan's Quickenings:

niIqm97ueHg

Nephthys
No it isn't. no expression



He displays physical attributes far above anything Vaan accomplishes, showing that he's a better combatant in leau (sp?) of his metahuman feats.



Becuase Vaan = Gabranth? confused

And his quickenings look an awful lot like its a case of Supernova symdrome, where Sephiroth doesn't really blow up a sun, just like Vaan doesn't really turn the world into a load of pretty colours and bright lights, nor is it likely he causes a massive explosion becuase of the complete lack of collateral damage.

BoratBorat
What exactly makes vaan a better swordsman than tidus? If both of these whiny teens fought it would be a scuffle rather than a deathmatch.

fascistcrusader
Dissidia is canon, but yet again Sephiroth let's Cloud win. It's not because he's being arrogant again though, the Dissidia Ultimania explains that he wants the heroes to succeed in defeating Chaos and his allies so things will go back to normal and he can continue with his plans for godhood, ruling through his Geostigma plan in his world rather than being a pawn of Chaos.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Nephthys
No it isn't.

To what paragraph are you replying...?

Originally posted by Nephthys
He displays physical attributes far above anything Vaan accomplishes

Where...? Vaan it is NOT introduced in Dissidia, you can't use Dissidia against someone who isn't there, you know. Tidus is a Blitzball player, Vaan is an Sky Pirate, Vaan wins, hands down.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Becuase Vaan = Gabranth? confused

And his quickenings look an awful lot like its a case of Supernova symdrome, where Sephiroth doesn't really blow up a sun, just like Vaan doesn't really turn the world into a load of pretty colours and bright lights, nor is it likely he causes a massive explosion becuase of the complete lack of collateral damage.

Gabranth is the only Final Fantasy XII character introduced in Dissidia, I put him on the table, just to gave a simple example about the Final Fantasy XII characters' feats. They aren't any push overs as many of the fans thinks.

Vaan doesn't turn any world. Where did you see a world in the Quickening? ... What you see there isn't a planet... When he throws his last Fire-Ball to the opponent the both of them explodes when making contact in the Air.

Nephthys
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
To what paragraph are you replying...?

The part where you say its totally wrong that someone with superior feats trumps someone with lesser or non-existent feats. Becuase... that just doesn't make sense, right!? no expression



Tidus, by showing off his clearly metahuman abilities and high agility has shown himself to be on a level above someone who has never even hinted that he can perform on that level. And yes, if a person has displayed feats better than another character, even a spinoff, if its canon, they are better than them.

And so what if he's a Blitzball player (who display above human feats like being able to propell themselves dozens of feet in the air from water) and Vaan's a sky pirate. That has incredibly limited relevence here.



Trying to say that Vaan isn't a push-over becuase some other guy marginally related to him isn't just doesn't work I'm afraid. You might as well say, 'Hey! This 'Voldemort' is pretty awesome. Heres Bob. He comes from the same place as Voldemort so he must also be awesome. QED.'

And I'm talking about the fact that as he does his quickening, the world around him dissapears to be replaced with (in the second instance) some random dust-cloud that changes colour and has bits of rock hovering everywhere. Vaan also appears to be standing on thin air. Either its just a dramatic effect, like it was (iirc) in Sephiroths case, or Vaan himself transports them into a different reality completely at random.

Btw, this is a frequent occurence in Final Fantasy, so unless they're all reality warpers I'm going with the 'SFX' version.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Nephthys
The part where you say its totally wrong that someone with superior feats trumps someone with lesser or non-existent feats. Becuase... that just doesn't make sense, right!?

Still, I don't know what "superior feats" Tidus have shown over Vaan... I truly don't know what are you talking about.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Tidus, by showing off his clearly metahuman abilities and high agility has shown himself to be on a level above someone who has never even hinted that he can perform on that level.

Metahuman...? You must be joking. Tidus is a normal human.
Let's see... So because Vaan hasn't shown feats like we see in Dissidia (crazy jumps, because that's everything Tidus does) that automatically makes Tidus superior? Tidus hasn't showed anything like that in Final Fantasy X either.

Originally posted by Nephthys
if a person has displayed feats better than another character, even a spinoff, if its canon, they are better than them.

So by your logic, if I put Batman in a spin-off comic book showing feats above Superman you would say Batman is stronger? Tidus is stronger than Seifer? Because by your logic Tidus shows amazing feats in Dissidia (?), so I could say he's stronger than Seifer who hasn't shown those feats because he is NOT in the game. Vaan it is NOT introduced in Dissidia, you cannot say Tidus is stronger just because Vaan it is not in Dissidia.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Trying to say that Vaan isn't a push-over becuase some other guy marginally related to him isn't just doesn't work I'm afraid. You might as well say, 'Hey! This 'Voldemort' is pretty awesome. Heres Bob. He comes from the same place as Voldemort so he must also be awesome. QED.'

.... Tidus is just a normal human. It seems you don't get it. Tidus is a "super-human" compared to us, in the Final Fantasy Universe he can do that without being considered a super-human. Vaan being a Sky Pirate shows he's more experienced in battle, on the other hand you have a guy who hasn't wield a sword till the beginning of it game.

You think Vaan is a push over? Well, you gotta explain why you think that. No, you are misunderstanding, I'm talking about the Final Fantasy XII characters in general, they aren't push overs.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I'm talking about the fact that as he does his quickening, the world around him dissapears to be replaced with (in the second instance) some random dust-cloud that changes colour and has bits of rock hovering everywhere. Vaan also appears to be standing on thin air. Either its just a dramatic effect, like it was (iirc) in Sephiroths case, or Vaan himself transports them into a different reality completely at random.


What have to do game effects? The fact is that he CAN perform that ability as Squall can perform Blasting Zone without mutilating the Earth, duh...

Nephthys
How about the way he can do half a dozen handspings, dive 10 feet in the air, push off 30 feet into the air, have Zidane latch on to his foot, spin around in mid air and propell him at very fast speeds towards another enemy? The second link shows more of the same but demonstrates some durability in being able to shake off a punch that blasts him 50-feet backwards into a pillar. That stuff is clearly above human level.



Right, a normal human who can leap dozens of feet skyward. A normal human who can breath underwater. A normal human who can jump out of water. A normal human who knows magic etc.



Yes. What are you having problems with here?



Yes. Seriously, what is the matter with you? is it that hard to understand that when someone performs better than someone else he's Better. How can you not understand that!?



No. Seifer cut Odin in half without even appearing to move, thats above anything Tidus does.



Look, heres where I think you're going wrong here. You think I'm saying that Just becuase he's in Dissidia he's better. Its not. What I'm saying is that he performed feats in Dissidia that are better. Do you get it. Heres what I originally said:



Notice the emphasis?



Which is why I'm calling him a 'super-human'. And please, its up to you to prove that everyone in Final Fantasy is on his level. Becuase as I recall, no-one in FF12 showed anything close to the physical abilities of Tidus. But if I'm wrong, prove up.



Becuase..... ?

By that logic I could say that Tidus was a Guardian, so he Must have more experience in battle. See the faulty logic there?



And yet smehow became a sword-master in 30 seconds, able to pull off stuff like his Overdrive right from the start. What great feats of swordplay has Vaan ever shown?



Becuase He's never shown anything that might put him on a level higher than that! I can't just say, 'he's obviously a badass,' for no bloody reason. He needs to have actaually shown something impressive before that. And he hasn't shown anything so far (or rather, you havn't) that would change my mind about that!



Great. Except we aren't talking about that, we're talking about Vaan. So what has Vaan done?



Please repeat that in a way that I can understand, becuase I'm struggling with it at the moment.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Nephthys
How about the way he can do half a dozen handspings, dive 10 feet in the air, push off 30 feet into the air, have Zidane latch on to his foot, spin around in mid air and propell him at very fast speeds towards another enemy? The second link shows more of the same but demonstrates some durability in being able to shake off a punch that blasts him 50-feet backwards into a pillar. That stuff is clearly above human level.

Look, heres where I think you're going wrong here. You think I'm saying that Just becuase he's in Dissidia he's better. Its not. What I'm saying is that he performed feats in Dissidia that are better. Do you get it. Heres what I originally said: Notice the emphasis?

Oh right... You clearly don't get my point and you keep using Dissidia to prove Tidus is stronger than someone who isn't there. All the characters in Dissidia shows awesome feats: speed, strength, etc. If that's your whole argument about Tidus being stronger than Vaan, I'm afraid that is not enough. I'll repeat what I wrote in my previous post. Most of the fans keep arguing that Cloud is far stronger than Squall and other Final Fantasy characters just because of the things, feats, and moves he does in Advent Children, that has been proved wrong multiple times, but they keep insisting. If Cloud does all of that, doesn't mean the other Final Fantasy characters can't do it as well. If Gabranth weren't in Dissidia, I wouldn't think he could perform all of those feats either, despite of this, he can, so Vaan and any Final Fantasy XII characters could, there's nothing to suggest they can't, otherwise, prove it.

No, no, that's the same. Vaan isn't there. If he were there you could say it, though I don't think so, Tidus wouldn't show feats above Vaan's. Vaan is nonexistent in Dissidia, so I assume you are comparing Dissidia Tidus to the Vaan from Final Fantasy XII. Why we don't compare both characters from their original games? I wouldn't compare any of the characters from Dissidia to some who aren't there, you know. In Dissidia all seems awesome, I insist, just look at Gabranth.

Tidus isn't the only one who can perform crazy jumps, so I don't see anything special about him. That may be look: "super-human" to YOU, but Tidus is just a normal human by Final Fantasy standards, he isn't super-human.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Right, a normal human who can leap dozens of feet skyward. A normal human who can breath underwater. A normal human who can jump out of water. A normal human who knows magic etc.

The part that he can: "breath" under-water made me to laugh a bit. So Jecht is super-human? Wakka is super-human? All of those random and weak people playing Blitzball are super-humans? You need a reality check. Tidus CAN'T breath under-water, no one can breath under-water, that's a totally made up argument, they can hold their breath for very prolonged time, that's all. Blitzball has nothing to do with fighting. Tidus can't use Magic, in that case, Vaan can. In the Final Fantasy Universe Magic is something normal, it can be performed by normal humans, Tidus is "super-human" compared to us. CLOUD under Final Fantasy standards IS super-human, NOT Tidus. Tidus jumping out of water makes no sense in a fight against anyone, every FF character can perform crazy jumps, etc.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes. What are you having problems with here?

You are an stubborn one, don't you...? I could say Cloud is the most powerful character in the FF universe then, using your stupid logic (no offense) of course. Since he does amazing stuff in AC and the rest of the FF characters are nowhere close to that. Who could imagine Zidane, Squall, Tidus crashing and destroying buildings with their weapons... You seriously makes no sense, and being ironic doesn't help too much either. Tidus is doing crazy jumps in Dissidia, that's all, he doens't even shows his feats with swords, he may be an still a newbie, who knows.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes. Seriously, what is the matter with you? is it that hard to understand that when someone performs better than someone else he's Better. How can you not understand that!?

Oh my God... Read above...

Originally posted by Nephthys
No. Seifer cut Odin in half without even appearing to move, thats above anything Tidus does.

But Seifer hasn't shown anything close of what Tidus 'supposedly' has shown... That's your logic, not mine. Let's make this simple to understand... Tidus is just a beginner swordsman, he maybe an athlete or whatever you like, but that doesn't have relevance in a fight. Give a sword to a Football Player, it's the same.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is why I'm calling him a 'super-human'. And please, its up to you to prove that everyone in Final Fantasy is on his level. Becuase as I recall, no-one in FF12 showed anything close to the physical abilities of Tidus. But if I'm wrong, prove up.

EXACTLY, but under FF standards he is NOT super-human, I'm glad you're finally understanding. The only physical feat you have from Tidus is that he plays Blitzball... Like saying that would help him in a fight against someone more experienced in BATTLE. And just to add something, Tidus isn't thin, but Vaan neither. Tidus' way to build up his body was playing Blitzball, Vaan's was killing monsters. The rest of the Final Fantasy XII characters such as Basch are far experienced and stronger.

Originally posted by Nephthys
By that logic I could say that Tidus was a Guardian, so he Must have more experience in battle. See the faulty logic there?

What faulty logic? When Tidus became a Guardian he was more experienced than before. If I'm an amateur Football Player and later I become a novice, I would have more experience. Vaan being a thief and later becoming a Sky Pirate (being approved by other hundred people) shows he's more experienced somehow.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And yet smehow became a sword-master in 30 seconds

laughing out loud

Originally posted by Nephthys
Becuase He's never shown anything that might put him on a level higher than that! I can't just say, 'he's obviously a badass,' for no bloody reason. He needs to have actaually shown something impressive before that. And he hasn't shown anything so far (or rather, you havn't) that would change my mind about that!

You say Vaan is a push-over, but you don't explain why, you said that you don't see him doing anything impressive, so you are not taking in consideration his abilities such as the Quickenings, you don't take in consideration all the fights or anything in Final Fantasy XII. For me, Tidus swimming in a crystal ball isn't impressive either, you must know. Plus, that doesn't applies anything in a fight between him and Vaan.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Please repeat that in a way that I can understand, becuase I'm struggling with it at the moment.

The Quickening are abilities that Vaan can perform, and as far as I know they are powerful, far powerful than Tidus abilities. You are, for some reason, bringing game special effects and stuff, Vaan doesn't turn the reality a Fire realm or anything like that. The same goes for Squall (an example) that seeing his Blasting Zone animation, he can't do that, because he would be cutting the Earth in two or Zell running around the Earth in 3 seconds. Those are animations from the Gameplay. The fact is that Vaan can pretty much perform those abilities.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So what has Vaan done?

As an orphan, Vaan trained by himself all of his life, killing monsters in the sewers BEFORE the game starts, he was doing it for years (call them rats, but I'd rather say they are carnivore monsters the size of a dog) and also monsters from the desert, doing monsters hunting and risking his life for others, the Robin Hood of Rabanastre. He's also a member of the Clan Centurio, an elite group of hunters that gives their life to kill powerful monsters in different parts of the world. Later Vaan joins the group and he clearly clarifies that he's just following Ashe to find his own answers while running away from his brother's death, Vaan is automatically involved in a world's war. If you want to see him as a full protagonist, I recommend you play Revenant Wings when he's far stronger. 'nuff said I guess. Vaan is definitely not a push-over, whoever who keeps thinking that is just stubborn.

Oh, I forgot about Tidus, he's a Blitzball player who cries because he hates his dad and by force had to take a sword to fight (he survived his first battles because Auron was there, let's recall), he never showed any feats with swords nor defeating anyone (except if we're talking about Blitzball, when he just swims) He has not killed even a mosquito until the start of Final Fantasy X, we just see him complaining and getting jealous of his mother (he doesn't even wield a sword properly when battling, just look at his battle pose holding the blade in his ass) At the end of the game he became a good fighter though, later we see him in Dissidia (since Dissidia is canon) doing some crazy jumps and almost being toasted by Kuja's Magic, that's it. But by you logic he's stronger than Vaan because he's in Dissidia showing 'feats above' Vaan when he isn't even in the game, should I lol?

Nephthys
Err, what? You seem to have a serious problem with 'proof'. You see, you can say that 'just becuz day dibn't do stuffs on Cloudz lvl dozn't meen day kan't!' all you like and technically you are right. But it doesn't mean they can either. Unless they actually DO show that they can do that stuff, then they can't actually do it. I mean, Jesus Christ! This is basic, 2 is a higher number than 1, stuff here. It is not that hard to grasp and I feel less smart just by having to spell it out to you.



http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/8/26/128642705099327799.jpg



I don't have to prove that a person can't do something, YOU have to prove that they can. Hint: Saying 'Someone else can, so he MUST be able to!' wacko doesn't cut it.



He doesn't need to be.



Becuase Dissidia happened no matter how much you stick your fingers in your ears and scream that it isn't fair. And Tidus displayed feats above Vaan in it no matter how much you continue to stick your fingers in your ears and say it isn't fair.

Besides, Vaan had his own spin-off. How well did he fare in that I wonder?



What do you mean by 'Final Fantasy standards'? Are you suggesting that everyone in Final Fantasy can do this stuff? That may be so. We can't prove that though. If you're saying that by that logic Vaan can clearly overcome his Spiderman-esque agility and greater strength (I'll explain later why he obviously has greater strength), then you have failed logic I'm afraid. Nothing Vaan has done suggests that.



Which by itself is an above human attribute. no expression

But forget about that, as you said it has nothing to do with fighting. I was merely saying that to show how ludicrious (sp?) your notion of him as a normal human is.



In his sphere grid he learns Haste. Thats at least one magical art he can use. Just not in canon. Just like Vaan can't use magic in canon either.



I'm confused with how you think 'One or two clearly exceptional individuals from each FF-verse have shown that they can perform crazy jumps' somehow means that 'every FF character' can. Maybe you are simply on another plain of existence where the rules of basic logic simply gave up and died before your galaxy-busting idiocy, but that just doesn't make much sense to me.

And for your information, being able to propell yourself that far out of a body of water using just your limbs would require AT LEAST meta-human strength. Why don't you go down to your pool and you try it. While your at it try doing some punches underwater and see how much slower you are. Tidus can cut things in half with his JRPG sword while fully submerged. Even being able to swing that thing under water would require ungodly strength, far, far above anything Vaan has displayed. Not to mention his other clearly meta-human strength feats like being able to jump that high or propel Zidane that fast with a simple kick. So Tidus doesn't even need to be a master swordsman. If Vaan blocks one blow he'll brake (sp?) his arms or something.



If he had shown that then you'd be correct. However, his feats are matched by several characters in and outside of Dissidia in gameplay and outside of it.



Cloud never destroyed buildings. As I recal he cut through several chuncks of rock as they fell on him, something all of those characters could concievibly do.



I did. Ironically 'Oh my god' was my reaction as well. smile



Yes he has. I literally just mentioned it. no expression



Right, there are obviously no difference between Blitzball players and Football players. Thanks for that slice of enlightenment.



facepalm2



And this experience can somehow be quantified can it? A Skypirate will ALWAYS be a better fighter than a Blitzballer, right? By merely being a skypirate, Vaan will automatically be a better swordsman that Tidus, right.

No, becuase thats just dumb.



When you see an ordinary human swordsman (i.e. Vaan) do a series of handsprings, leap into the air, do a triple somersault to build momentum, come out of the somersaults and raise his blade to diliver a perfectly timed overhead smash, you let me know. wink



Becuase we don't know the circumstances of any of his fights or how they were fought. Did Vaan fight any of them? Did they run away until the opponent ran out of mana or stamina and then wailed on them. WE. DON'T. KNOW. We know that Vaan killed some rats at the start, but how? Did he run arund it they got tired first? Did he walk around on stilts and pelt them with rocks? We don't know. None of Vaan's fights a quantifiable becuase we simply don't know how he fought them, or even if he did.

And Vaan has to purchase his quickenings from the License board, so we don't know if he ever actually got them. So they can't be used here.



Too bad it isn't a fact. smile



They're dire rats and far smaller and less deadly than the monsters Tidus fights with Auron, the pirana's he fight alone (underwater), or the other monster he fights alone (in the temple at the start of the game).



In canon?



I think you should cry personally. Seriously, give up, you're not doing yourself any favours.

GrieverSquall
I think you're right... I'll retreat for now, FOR NOW. Since I'm tired of replying to many posts, either way, good debate, I'll be back.
Well, people can keep commenting if they like.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I think you're right... I'll retreat for now, FOR NOW. Since I'm tired of replying to many posts, either way, good debate, I'll be back.
Well, people can keep commenting if they like.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn161/Asarithlove/Final%20Fantasy%20Mixe/tvschool2.jpg

laughing

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Nephthys
But it doesn't mean they can either. Unless they actually DO show that they can do that stuff, then they can't actually do it.

I don't see anything that suggests that Vaan couldn't perform like the rest of the characters from the series. Gabranth never did something similar in FFXII like he's doing in Dissidia, I mean, he never has shown those fighting feats or anything. So, how this follows? Or maybe he did, and their abilities weren't so important in the story-line so the developers didn't focus on that, but Dissidia IS a fighting game. Tidus isn't doing anything 'impressive'. I'm amazed at how Squall can fight Sephiroth, THAT was impressive. Your whole argument for Tidus is that he performs 'stuff' in Dissidia, that's refuted but you keep insisting. Let me be clear, Tidus is just a normal novice swordsman that applies some athletic moves to his attacks. So what? Vaan and any of the characters hasn't shown they can swim, but that means they can't? No, you would say: "but dat doeznt mean they can eitherr!!!" You sir, are stubborn. sad

Originally posted by Nephthys
YOU have to prove that they can. Hint: Saying 'Someone else can, so he MUST be able to!' wacko doesn't cut it.

I never said that, you got it wrong. Both, Gabranth and Vaan are from the same universe, Vaan is the main protagonist, it's not like I'm throwing a random/secundary character at Dissidia just because other is in there, you know. I can't prove anything, Vaan isn't in Dissidia. And because Gabranth is in Dissidia doesn't mean Vaan could perform the SAME he's performing, I know, but it IS VERY likely he could do something similar seeing Gabranth's Quickenings and all the unique mechanic from the FF XII Universe, also Vaan would had his own style of moves and fighting skills. If you don't agree with this, we're going on separate ways, none of us will change our minds as I can see, and we'll never reach an agreement, sadly. down

Originally posted by Nephthys
He doesn't need to be.

They were about to include him, meaning that you wouldn't be saying all of this bullshit. It would be good too, to show his abilities, oh well...

Originally posted by Nephthys
Tidus displayed feats above Vaan

Yeah, he can swim better. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Nephthys
What do you mean by 'Final Fantasy standards'?

I'll explain. You say Tidus have above-human abilities, wrong. He is "super-human" compared to us, in the Final Fantasy Universe he isn't super-human, he's a normal human. People like Cloud Strife are super-humans by Final Fantasy standards, because he's a genetically enhanced human, and the Reunion Files states that his abilities are above normal humans, another quick example is Sephiroth, you can call them 'Metahuman' or 'Mutants' if you like, but Tidus is a normal human no matter how much you stick your fingers in your ears and scream that it isn't fair.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Are you suggesting that everyone in Final Fantasy can do this stuff?

Of course not. But in Final Fantasy, Magic, is something normal.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which by itself is an above human attribute.

no Let me repeat myself. Is above YOUR attributes, OUR attributes. In the Final Fantasy X Universe normal people can swim, hold their breath prolonged time and can become Blitzball players.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In his sphere grid he learns Haste. Thats at least one magical art he can use. Just not in canon. Just like Vaan can't use magic in canon either.

Magic is canon in every Final Fantasy game, just because they aren't mentioned directly into the story-line, doesn't mean they aren't canon or that the Spells doesn't exist. Tidus can use at least that Haste Spell, there's nothing to suggest he can't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm confused with how you think 'One or two clearly exceptional individuals from each FF-verse have shown that they can perform crazy jumps' somehow means that 'every FF character' can.

Indeed, you're confused. English isn't my first language... Oh... I didn't know I had to say this, but only to let you know, ok? Actually... All the characters seen in Dissidia can perform this kind of stuff, that's the FF Universe. Tidus' jumps are more athletic, everyone can run in high speed, perform powerful abilities, magic, etc. Even people from the real world performs crazy stuff. That's why I don't see anything that suggest that Vaan couldn't do it. You are comparing our real world to a fictional world, no champ, you're wrong. I don't like Vaan that much but that doesn't mean I have to underrating him like you're doing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And for your information, being able to propell yourself that far out of a body of water using just your limbs would require AT LEAST meta-human strength. Why don't you go down to your pool and you try it. While your at it try doing some punches underwater and see how much slower you are. Tidus can cut things in half with his JRPG sword while fully submerged. Even being able to swing that thing under water would require ungodly strength, far, far above anything Vaan has displayed. Not to mention his other clearly meta-human strength feats like being able to jump that high or propel Zidane that fast with a simple kick. So Tidus doesn't even need to be a master swordsman. If Vaan blocks one blow he'll brake (sp?) his arms or something.

Relax. Tidus is 'metahuman' compared to us. Not really... professional swimmers have shown various awesome feats underwater without being considered super-humans, you would be amazed at how normal humans can perform amazing stuff. Tidus has trained all of his life playing Blitzball in the water and complaining about his dad, all of what you're telling me isn't something new to me, I've played Final Fantasy X. Tidus slays enemies in the water as Wakka and Rikku and he hasn't cut absolutely anything. A swimmer would have more strength than me, because of the training underwater you got muscles and stamina, after all is just an sport, but I don't know if more strength than a fighter. And you forgot something REALLY important, Final FANTASY is just a game.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If he had shown that then you'd be correct. However, his feats are matched by several characters in and outside of Dissidia in gameplay and outside of it.

I'm correct. If Cloud could have shown at least one of the feats he shows in Advent Children, he wouldn't had to dress as a woman to pass through some weak security guards in FFVII.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Cloud never destroyed buildings. As I recal he cut through several chuncks of rock as they fell on him, something all of those characters could concievibly do.

Well, call them rocks if you want, those were parts from a building. He just moved his arm and... Boom, he sliced it as I slice my bread each morning. I don't think so... Squall hardly sliced those tubes to save Rinoa. Square-Enix has made all great which I'm happy for that. New technology.

Originally posted by Nephthys
A Skypirate will ALWAYS be a better fighter than a Blitzballer, right?

A Blitzballer isn't a fighter. no expression

Originally posted by Nephthys
When you see an ordinary human swordsman (i.e. Vaan)

And (i.e. Tidus) Oh... I forgot Tidus is just a novice swordsman, sorry.

Originally posted by Nephthys
do a series of handsprings, leap into the air, do a triple somersault to build momentum, come out of the somersaults and raise his blade to diliver a perfectly timed overhead smash, you let me know.

Yeah, he add athletic moves to his attacks. So? confused

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Nephthys
We know that Vaan killed some

We don't know the amount, but since he was doing it for years and not only in the sewers, in the desert, etc... Use at least, common sense, dude. "Some" sounds just a few.

Originally posted by Nephthys
at the start

Before.

Originally posted by Nephthys
but how? Did he run arund it they got tired first? Did he walk around on stilts and pelt them with rocks? We don't know. None of Vaan's fights a quantifiable becuase we simply don't know how he fought them

Hey, that's a good idea, I think I'll go asking him how he managed to kill them since that's a very important information for you. Although... Let me think... I wonder how he got the nickname Vaan Ratsbane... Maybe for running away from them without even fighting, so those 'little' rats as you call them went tired and died. Yeah, that's must be it. Also... I was thinking in asking Cloud how he got that hair-cut. Or maybe you should ask Tidus how he managed to save his own ass from the giant monster underwater.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vaan has to purchase his quickenings from the License board, so we don't know if he ever actually got them. So they can't be used here.

That's a game mechanic, Lulu had to go through all that Sphere Grid to 'purchase' her Spells as well as the rest of the Final Fantasy X characters. Basch had his Quickening from the start and destroyed an enemy ship without the needing to "purchase" anything, that's up to the player. Quickenings are pretty much abilities from each character in Final Fantasy XII and you can't take them off this debate, I'm afraid. Nice try.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Too bad it isn't a fact.

Oh, oh, it is, it is. Otherwise if your answer is no, I could say Blitz Ace isn't a fact, that's Tidus final attack, some random swings from the sword (hell, even in his battle animations he looks like a novice, but there's people who can't accept that) then he kicks a Blitz Ball to the opponent creating an... Explosion... And you were the one saying Vaan's abilities were out of real... I think this one PWNS reality and physics. Or the Ball had a bomb inside? Vaan's abilities are more powerful than Tidus, face it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Tidus fought/fights with Auron

That's why he wasn't killed. smile

Originally posted by Nephthys
They're dire rats and far smaller

Ok, I send some to your room tonight, you can pet one. wink

Originally posted by Nephthys
the pirana's he fight alone (underwater)

If you mean the giant monster, Tidus almost loses his life there.
But if you mean the other one, he was with Rikku, who 'supposedly' is a 'metahuman' (as far as your logic goes) since she can hold her breath by a prolonged time too.

Originally posted by Nephthys
the other monster he fights alone (in the temple).

Rikku saved his ass with bombs.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In canon?

Yes.

StyleTime
I'm surprised this thread sparked such a discussion.

You all forget the most important question though. Don't Vaan and Tidus kinda look alike?

Nephthys
Like was said in a different thread, I don't have to prove that a character can't do something, you have to prove that they can. Which you have so far failed to do utterly.



Your metaphor fails. Vaan is not be able to swim, unless he's actually shown he has mastered the necessary technique to be able to. Even if we take the small step in logic to give him that ability, it would be becuase all it takes to swim is to have arms and legs, rather than the super-human abilities you're attempting to give to Vaan.



'Becuz sumeone elze cann do sumthing, sum1 elze caan obviously doo somethin!'



/thread.



No it isn't. Not even close.



And Vaan can do what now...?



Your wrong. Very, very wrong. And you can't prove your stance either. A few people show super-human abilities from the FFverse, its an absurd leap of logic to say that everyone can do things on this level. The people who do do (heh, dodo) those things are either main characters or super-soldiers. When was the last time you saw a peasant beat a dragon to death? Never, becuase they can't.



I see was you did there. Heh.



So now are you trying to suggest that the FF10-verse = the FF13-verse, becuase it seems like you're driving at becuase Tidus may not be uber in FF10, he won't be uber compared to Vaan. Which.... just has nothing backing it up. no expression

Besides, in this forum we judge people by our standards, not theirs.



They're also main characters and villians, not some yobs that the developers brought in off the street.



Explain.



Although it ignores the rules of logic?



No human can do the things Tidus can do. They can't punt poeple so fast they fly backwards at top speeds, they can't leap twenty feet in the air by swimming upwards, they can't throw a ball through the water, they can't hack things to death with a huge slice of iron. Tidus is waaay above human.



Which explains why Yuna had 2 Blitzballer guardians. And why the Al Bhed send their Blitzball team on salvaging runs. And why a Blitzball player became the 'Legendary guardian' and survived the Pilgramage. :/

But your point fails becuase you're generalising. You are saying that the only factor that Vaan over Tidus is that a SkyPirate> a Blitzballer. It's like saying a martial artist is always going to beat a photographer, without factoring in anything else. Sorry, but this isn't enough. It doesn't take into consideration all teh factrs that play into a fight, like luck or chance or how they're feeling on the day or that the guys name might be Peter Parker. It's just their profession, it has no bearing on their actual abilities.



He pulled it off perfectly, showing swordsmanship in excess of anything Vaan's ever performed, as well as physical abilities above Vaan or any other human swordsman in fact.

This match is like putting Spiderman in a fenching competition with a master. Spiderman would win simply becuase he's stronger, faster and more agile than the human. Except in this case its Spiderman whose performed actual feats of swordsmanship against a noob with a sword.

Gee, I wonder who'll win :/



It's a valid way for him to win, and since we have nothing to indicate that he did anything else, its as valid a way of him doing it as him fighting them with lightning shooting from his ass.



If they never canonally had them, they can't use them in the fight. Its up to game mechanics whether Vaan got a Quickening, and since we can't use game mechanics, becuase they aren't what factually happened and don't constitute as proof, Vaan has no Quickenings.



It isn't, hence why I havn't mentioned it yet, though his finishing attack in Dissidia has the exact same thing so... yeah, Tidus can kick things so hard they explode on impact. Or they were magic. It doesn't matter, its simply another way for Tidus to kick Vaans ass.



Having looked them up, they're the size of a chiwawa, and have tiny legs and a pathetic bite attack. I think I'll be fine.



Common sense is faulty, facts are absolute. My common sense is telling me that he probably downed hundreds of the little buggers. The facts however say that theres zero proof for that number. Therefore its an incredibly small feat.




Nope.

wakkawakkawakka
Well Vaan was recognized as a great Clan Hunter in XII. However Tidus became a pretty good swordsman at the end of X. Tidus wound win in a fight by flipping around and stuff, but Vaan can use Time Magic and teleport Tidus to another dimension: or is that another game mechanic.

Also the Clan only recognizes Vaan for all of the hunts you take so his skill are recognized.(even if he's given more credit than he deserves)
Here's a thought. Vaan could just land on Tidus with an airship but it does seem like Tidus has more feats backing him.

TacDavey
Originally posted by Nephthys
The part where you say its totally wrong that someone with superior feats trumps someone with lesser or non-existent feats. Becuase... that just doesn't make sense, right!? no expression

Nephthys, your logic is flawed here. Most of the characters in Dissidia couldn't perform any of the feats you see them do in Dissidia originally. The game developers simply did this to add more flare and to allow all of the characters to be on equal ground in a fight. To use an example from Dissidia to show a characters superiority over another character who is not introduced in Dissidia is invalid. Bottom line, Dissidia is not an accurate representation of the characters abilities.

Take a look at Squall for a second. Based off what we know of him from FF8, the beginning cutscene for example, he is not capable of performing like Tidus in Dissidia either. However, once he makes the jump into Dissidia, we see him easily performing such feats. Why is it illogical to think the same would have happened with Vaan?


Originally posted by Nephthys
Right, a normal human who can leap dozens of feet skyward. A normal human who can breath underwater. A normal human who can jump out of water. A normal human who knows magic etc.

This is fairly common in Final Fantasy. It is fairly common in just about all Fantasy RPGs. In this universe, those feats are not extraordinary. Anyone can do them given the chance and training.

Look at all the accomplishments of all the other characters in all the other games. No normal human would be able to perform any of those feats either, yet we would not consider them all super human. They may be super human by OUR standards, but they are regular people in the FF universe.

The alternative would be to claim that all the characters just so happened to be super humans who just so happened to all find each other and just so happened to form a team to do battle. But that is simply illogical unless they specifically state such in the game. Especially considering Tifa's abilities were taught to her from an old master. Would we say he is a super human as well? Of course not, this is simply the norm in game universes like this.

To summarize, you cannot relate fantasy characters abilities to real life abilities to show they are a super human. While they may be super human to us, there is no reason to see them as such in the fantasy universe unless there is reason to do so presented in the game itself, and there is not in Tidus's case.

As for the discussion in the thread, I think it is rather futile. Vaan is the main character from FF12, am I right? Since you could personalize every aspect of his abilities yourself, there is hardly any solid evidence to say he could do anything. Vaan is what the player wants him to be, and as such we cannot say for certain what his skills are at all. Perhaps he is an archer in one, or a spell caster in another. There is simply no way for us to determine his skills, unless they were specified in the beginning of the thread. If that was the case, then disregard my last paragraph.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't have to prove that a character can't do something, you have to prove that they can.

I didn't said you have to prove something. What left in your argument? Dissidia's intro, you have nothing. You don't get my point, I don't know how to express myself anymore due of my lack of English language.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vaan is not be able to swim, unless he's actually shown.

Vaan has shown he can fight, but you want to know how, I would want to know how Tidus fought as well, sadly we can't. Or you need a cutscene? Or maybe Square-Enix developers saying it in your face?

Originally posted by Nephthys
he has mastered the necessary technique to be able to

Oh really? Tidus hasn't mastered any sword skills, he hasn't shown that. We don't know how he fought his enemies either since he was always with the party and we don't have accurate facts if he actually learned swords skills.

Originally posted by Nephthys
the super-human abilities you're attempting to give to Vaan.

Vaan is a normal human just like Tidus in the FF Universe. I think I'm not the only one who thinks it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
'Becuz sumeone elze cann do sumthing, sum1 elze caan obviously doo somethin!'
No it isn't. Not even close.

No. All we know that every Final Fantasy character would displays these fighting feats in Dissidia, even if they put a weak character, after all is a fighting game and in some way they had to make the characters in some sort equal level to make it fair.
If I were you, I would brought evidence from Final Fantasy X rather than from Dissidia, even if Dissidia is canon. Vaan was about to be included as many other characters, I know that doesn't prove anything but at least I know they had plans for it, meaning that your stance is half-right. Vaan would pretty much fight in Dissidia.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Vaan can do what now...?

Underwater? We don't know, on earth would beat Tidus.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which explains why Yuna had 2 Blitzballer guardians

AND one experienced swordsman Legendary GUARDIAN AND a Ronso warrior AND an Al Bhed Thief AND a Black Mage AND tons of Aeons. Yeah... Or the two Blitzballer were alone? Nah, they are dead-meat if they were. Blitzball wouldn't save their asses.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But your point fails becuase you're generalising. You are saying that the only factor that Vaan over Tidus is that a SkyPirate> a Blitzballer.

I thought that were your logic.
A Blitzballer > Sky Pirate.
I don't know... Because an Sky Pirate is permanently wandering around the world, dangerous places, ruins, etc. hunting treasures and fighting monsters and powerful entities by default. A 'Blitzballer' doesn't even fight under water by default. I care about experience here. Vaan > Tidus, hands down.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's like saying a martial artist is always going to beat a photographer, without factoring in anything else.

Huh? If the photographer grabbed a gun instead a camera and shoots, then the martial artist would dead, if not, the martial artist would beat down the photographer. You are basically claiming that a photographer can beat the martial artist, then you have to provide evidence, or you want me to do it for you?

Originally posted by Nephthys
He pulled it off perfectly, showing swordsmanship in excess

Don't make me laugh, he doesn't even know how to hold a sword while fighting, just look at his stupid battle pose. His battle animations from the gameplay aren't evidence by the way.

Originally posted by Nephthys
as well as physical abilities above Vaan or any other human swordsman in fact.

Tidus never did this.
Watch this video, play it around 6:33, you'll see how Vaan grabs one of Gabranth's swords and hits Vayne throwing him meters away outside gameplay. You wouldn't say a normal human would be able to do this, or yes?

RnMmAwF24Tk

Originally posted by Nephthys
This match is like putting Spiderman in a fenching competition with a master. Spiderman would win simply becuase he's stronger, faster and more agile than the human.

Lmao. This match is like putting Zinedine Zidane with a sword without experience against a Samurai who would rip off his head by the blink of an eye. Tidus isn't super-human.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's a valid way for him to win, and since we have nothing to indicate that he did anything else, its as valid a way of him doing it as him fighting them with lightning shooting from his ass.

And since we have nothing to indicate how Tidus fought his enemies either despite that he was always with his team, it's valid to think he could have throw a gas and killed those flying enemies instead of using his sword or that he could have run away from them using his athletic moves. This thread isn't serious anymore, thanks.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If they never canonally had them, they can't use them in the fight. Its up to game mechanics whether Vaan got a Quickening, and since we can't use game mechanics, becuase they aren't what factually happened and don't constitute as proof, Vaan has no Quickenings.

Hmm... Afraid of the Quickenings? Wasn't Tidus a 'super-human', lmao? Then Lulu can't use magic, Tidus doesn't have any sword skills, Auron either nor Kimahri unlike his jump. Rikku can't steal shit from his enemies nor create and use items and Wakka can't kill them with a ball. Yuna could be the only one since the Aeons are part of the story-line, but she doesn't have tons of transformations as we can see in FFX-2. However, Quickenings are each character abilities, the 'Mist' command is the access, 'Mist' is canon in FFXII, Basch used a Quickening and destroyed an enemy ship in canon, the FFXII characters can summon in canon, Espers ARE canon, the Clan Centurio is a side-quest but is part of the FFXII universe so is canon, Montblanc is canon. Canon and that the developers didn't focus on the characters abilities to make them part of the story are different things and doesn't mean they aren't canon. Sorry, Vaan abilities are more powerful than Tidus, hands down.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Tidus can kick things so hard they explode on impact.
Or they were magic. It doesn't matter, its simply another way for Tidus to kick Vaans ass.

http://kevinrobinson.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/epic_fail.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
Having looked them up, they're the size of a chiwawa, and have tiny legs and a pathetic bite attack. I think I'll be fine.

No, you didn't. They're the size of a Rottweiler, and their bite attack can finish your arm or face in seconds. Ok I trust you, I think with a stick you'll be fine.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Common sense is faulty, facts are absolute. My common sense is telling me that he probably downed hundreds of the little buggers. The facts however say that theres zero proof for that number. Therefore its an incredibly small feat.

You cannot say "some" when you already know it was for years and not only rats, Vaan wandered also in the desert and etc. Common sense can be used in this case. Facts? You don't have facts even for Tidus.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes.

He agrees. wink
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/thumb/e/e3/FF12Montblanc.jpg/180px-FF12Montblanc.jpg

TacDavey
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
However Tidus became a pretty good swordsman at the end of X. Tidus wound win in a fight by flipping around and stuff, but Vaan can use Time Magic and teleport Tidus to another dimension: or is that another game mechanic.

Yes it is. Vaan only has time magic if you give him time magic and thus it cannot be used as valid evidence. We can only use what we factually know about the character.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Here's a thought. Vaan could just land on Tidus with an airship but it does seem like Tidus has more feats backing him.

Well, you can't add airships into the fight, as you're giving Vaan an extra advantage. I would say Tidus would win if he had a bazooka.

FWahMaN
.............please tell me there isn't a big debate over two pansies...seriously guys. When I saw Vaan I was like "damn she's hot". laughing

wakkawakkawakka
I was just having fun with the airship statement. If you were to compare them storywise, Vaan does have more sword feats and doesn't need someone keeping him alive at the beginning of the game. I'm not sure his minor feats put him above Tidus but they are something. Although Vaan does next to nothing as the story progresses and when he does he's usually ignored so we don't know if he ever became a good swordsman at the end of XII.

Revenant Wings Vaan would mostly likely beat Tidus in swordskill but Vaan in general has a strange status in the FFverse; by that I mean he's both the weakest and the strongest in sorts. He's ignored for the most part in the overall story but game wise he can use the majority of magic that exists in Final fantasy whenever he wants, use teckniks, use summons that fight along with him, and use quickenings. By comparison to other Final Fantasy characters thats a lot. But these are just game mechanics, so this whole thing can be null and void.

TacDavey
Originally posted by FWahMaN
.............please tell me there isn't a big debate over two pansies...seriously guys. When I saw Vaan I was like "damn she's hot". laughing

I know, right? Have you seen his picture in the strategy guide? I have no idea what they are thinking over their in Japan.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I was just having fun with the airship statement. If you were to compare them storywise, Vaan does have more sword feats and doesn't need someone keeping him alive at the beginning of the game. I'm not sure his minor feats put him above Tidus but they are something. Although Vaan does next to nothing as the story progresses and when he does he's usually ignored so we don't know if he ever became a good swordsman at the end of XII.

Revenant Wings Vaan would mostly likely beat Tidus in swordskill but Vaan in general has a strange status in the FFverse; by that I mean he's both the weakest and the strongest in sorts. He's ignored for the most part in the overall story but game wise he can use the majority of magic that exists in Final fantasy whenever he wants, use teckniks, use summons that fight along with him, and use quickenings. By comparison to other Final Fantasy characters thats a lot. But these are just game mechanics, so this whole thing can be null and void.

I haven't played, or seen Revenant Wings, so I cannot comment on what Vaan can do there, but as far as FFXII goes it's all a big mystery.

Also, it doesn't matter what happened to Tidus in the beginning of the game. I see this all too often when debating characters. The only thing that is important is what he can do NOW, not what he used to be able to do. After all, he used to be a baby at one point to, and I'm sure he couldn't fight very well then either. It's all irrelevant.

wakkawakkawakka
At least Vaan gets some dignity;more than the actual game gives him. Since we don't know what Vaan can and can't do due to the fact that he is ignored throughout the story In fact all we know about their skill comes from their status. However if this is a fight of character development then Tidus wins.

I think everyone did a double-take when they first saw Vaan.

TacDavey
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
At least Vaan gets some dignity;more than the actual game gives him. Since we don't know what Vaan can and can't do due to the fact that he is ignored throughout the story In fact all we know about their skill comes from their status. However if this is a fight of character development then Tidus wins.

I think everyone did a double-take when they first saw Vaan.

Don't even get me started on the character development of FFXII, it was awful.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
Don't even get me started on the character development of FFXII, it was awful.

I hated Vaan, he was an empty main character. The only 'excuse' that the game had to retain Vaan into the story was his brother's death and the dream about becoming an Sky Pirate, but that quickly disappeared while the progress of the game. But I like how he is in Revenant Wings, he a great leader there and a main true character, he has changed. Talking about Final Fantasy XII, Penelo was basically nonexistent, she was there because she is Vaan's friend, that's all, I like Balthier, he have attitude and many times he take the role as leader and lead the party, Ashe was the true protagonist, also Basch.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I hated Vaan, he was an empty main character. The only 'excuse' that the game had to retain Vaan into the story was his brother's death and the dream about becoming an Sky Pirate, but that quickly disappeared while the progress of the game. But I like how he is in Revenant Wings, he a great leader there and a main true character, he has changed. Talking about Final Fantasy XII, Penelo was basically nonexistent, she was there because she is Vaan's friend, that's all, I like Balthier, he have attitude and many times he take the role as leader and lead the party, Ashe was the true protagonist, also Basch.

Indeed. Penelo was simply in the game for an extra party member. She has practically no dialogue at all. Vaan was important for a short time, then he simply died. He may as well have been dead in a back ally for all I saw of him the rest of the game and his reasons for sticking with the party were... what now? Why was he there? It's almost like they started thinking of a reason for him to stick around, but then realized that they didn't need one for Penelo and just said screw it.

Balthier starts out not important, then becomes important randomly and then just as suddenly stops being important again. Fran is the same way. Ashe is about the only consistent character.

On top of that, the characters hardly ever interact with each other. We don't know what each one thinks of the other.

I could go on and on and on. I never did finish that game. I just couldn't bring myself to suffer through till the end.

GrieverSquall
Vaan states that he's following Ashe to find his own purposes and answers, he also states that the whole Sky Pirate thing was because he's running away from Reks death, that gives you a hint that Vaan wasn't the main focus in the story despite that he's the male protagonist.

Vaan grows a bit later in the game when he learns that revenge isn't the best option for his life and that wouldn't bring Reks back.

Basch, Ashe and Balthier are the most focused in the story.

wakkawakkawakka
Despite not really doing anything in the storyline, Vaan is the face of the group so that counts for something right? Vayne wasn't really a noteworthy antagonist either; I'd would have preffered they stuck to Venat since it was a rebel occuria. Cid was more interesting than him.

But they are all recognized for disabling the Death-Star replica(Bahamut). Do Penelo and Vaan get points for showing up to that or what?

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Despite not really doing anything in the storyline, Vaan is the face of the group so that counts for something right? Vayne wasn't really a noteworthy antagonist either; I'd would have preffered they stuck to Venat since it was a rebel occuria. Cid was more interesting than him.

But they are all recognized for disabling the Death-Star replica(Bahamut). Do Penelo and Vaan get points for showing up to that or what?

Sadly, I must agree with you, he was doing basically nothing. What has he provided to the restoration of the Kingdom of Dalmasca? Nothing. But he is just a boy who followed the whole plot as I said in my previous post, he was following Ashe to find his own answers. Obviously he aided the team fighting, but other than that... He knows shit about politic and stuff, he's just another victim of the empire. With the journey Vaan learned things (some of them important), that's all.

Vayne was... Ok, a political antagonist.

TacDavey
If they wanted him to be a lousy side character, they shouldn't have made it out like he's important. The game starts with him, and has him as the main character walking around towns. Why not have Ashe be the main character since she obviously was. She was the only one who was consistently important. Everyone else either was never important at all, or became important spontaneously and then just died off back into the background.

........We're off topic now.

wakkawakkawakka
Well let get back on with some feats of sorts. Tidus and co. killed an unkillable being that could vaporizes armies and halted the progression of civilization for about 1000 years. Vaan and co. beat a guy merged with a rebel occuria and disabled...ummm...a Death Star knockoff.

Who wins?

TacDavey
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Well let get back on with some feats of sorts. Tidus and co. killed an unkillable being that could vaporizes armies and halted the progression of civilization for about 1000 years. Vaan and co. beat a guy merged with a rebel occuria and disabled...ummm...a Death Star knockoff.

Who wins?

Still a little hard to tell. Since both cases involve a team here, it is difficult to determine a single characters strength.

Since we can't know what Vaan can do, we can only turn to what we KNOW he can do. He has slight skill with a sword, and he kills rats in the sewers.

With that evidence supporting him... Tidus wins.

GrieverSquall
And... Tidus would win because of what...?

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
And... Tidus would win because of what...?

Well, because we know what he can do. Aside from being good with a sword, he can cast magic as well.

So far, all we know of Vaan is that he has picked up a sword at one point in his life.

GrieverSquall
So Tidus can cast magic? Why Vaan can't cast magic?

Tidus is good with the sword? Vaan too.

NemeBro
So much sheer fail cannot be contained in any plane of existence.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
So Tidus can cast magic? Why Vaan can't cast magic?

Tidus is good with the sword? Vaan too.

Vaan cant cast magic because its up to the player to decide if he can or can't. We can only go on what's set in stone, not what is left up to the player.

It's the same with the sword. Maybe Vaan uses a sword, maybe not. Vaan is completely and utterly a player generated character. He is different for every person playing the game.

GrieverSquall
If that's the case Tidus can't either because it's up to the player on what he learns on the Sphere Grid, I can make him to learn Ultima if I want. I'd go with his Overdrive.

Vaan uses a sword, play Revenant Wings and you'll have your evidence.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
If that's the case Tidus can't either because it's up to the player on what he learns on the Sphere Grid, I can make him to learn Ultima if I want. I'd go with his Overdrive.

Vaan uses a sword, play Revenant Wings and you'll have your evidence.

Like I said, never played Revenant wings so if you want to use the Vaan from that one I'll just have to back out of this debate.

Tidus may be able to learn other peoples skills, but he does have skills that are his. The ones on his sphere grid are his own.

GrieverSquall
You don't need to play, Vaan's main weapon is a sword and it is logic to think that his default weapon in Final Fantasy XII was a sword as well, it is stated that he was slaying rats in the sewers, he was always using a sword. Don't take evey discussion as a debate, Tac, we're just talking.

In canon? That's the same question we have against the Quickenings, aren't we? I'd go with his Overdrive rather than his Magic in the Sphere Grid.

NemeBro
Tidus sucks. Vaan really sucks.

Tidus wins because he sucks less, and he had Auron appear in alot of scenes with him to make up for his suckiness.

wakkawakkawakka
Well stated argument. How about this though. Gabranth( Jecht + Darth Vader) pwns both of them without even trying. And Vaan doesn't suck because he doesn't exist as character to suck. Maybe the Revenant Wings Vaan should have been used.

GrieverSquall
Or maybe the Vaan from Final Fantasy: Tactics Advance 2 who is even stronger. I don't know if that game is canon though, I haven't played it, but if it is then Vaan would win.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You don't need to play, Vaan's main weapon is a sword and it is logic to think that his default weapon in Final Fantasy XII was a sword as well, it is stated that he was slaying rats in the sewers, he was always using a sword. Don't take evey discussion as a debate, Tac, we're just talking.

What do you mean? I'm just talking.

Vaan may have started out with a sword, but that's not enough to justify claiming that he is anything past a novice with it. He had to start with SOME weapon.

Anyway, I can't say one way or another about Revenant Wings.



Originally posted by GrieverSquall
In canon? That's the same question we have against the Quickenings, aren't we? I'd go with his Overdrive rather than his Magic in the Sphere Grid.

No, it's not quite the same. Magic is a very real part of the FF universe. It's different than leaping ten stories into the air or kicking exploding balls because outside of battle we see that the characters can't actually do any of those things.

With the Quickenings, however, now that you mention it I suppose all they really are is one giant spell. Well, some of them anyway. I suppose it's not unreasonable to think they are just casting a large spell, though not all of them fit into this category.

Hmmm, maybe the quickenings can be allowed after all. I don't know, I'd have to think about it a bit more. I'll just leave it alone for now. In the end, though, I still don't think it matters in determining who wins this fight. Quickenings alone won't win it for Ashe.

GrieverSquall
Animations... Just animations.
Overdrive 'Swordplay' or whatever is called (I don't remember) are Tidus abilities. That's why I'd go with that rather than Magic from the Sphere Grid.

MadMel
vaan is an unknown, due to how the player can customize him
if this were the starwars vs he'd be banned from all fights stick out tongue

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Animations... Just animations.
Overdrive 'Swordplay' or whatever is called (I don't remember) are Tidus abilities. That's why I'd go with that rather than Magic from the Sphere Grid.

What are you talking about? You're not making sense anymore. Where you say "animations" I say "game mechanics." Same thing in this case.

Originally posted by MadMel
vaan is an unknown, due to how the player can customize him
if this were the starwars vs he'd be banned from all fights stick out tongue

Thank you! That's what I've been saying this whole time.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
What are you talking about? You're not making sense anymore. Where you say "animations" I say "game mechanics." Same thing in this case.

Huh? I said I'd go with his Swordplay abilities rather than count with the Sphere Grid, what are you talking about? Sphere Grid is a game mechanic and you can learn whatever you want there. I was replying to one of your quotes. We're off topic badly here.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Huh? I said I'd go with his Swordplay abilities rather than count with the Sphere Grid, what are you talking about? Sphere Grid is a game mechanic and you can learn whatever you want there. I was replying to one of your quotes. We're off topic badly here.

Well, lets forget that part. back to the main topic, I still say it's impossible to tell who would win in this fight.

GrieverSquall
Maybe you are right.

TacDavey
So is it safe to say this discussion is over? Unless someone has anything else to add, for the moment it stands at: No Conclusion Possible.

GrieverSquall
Agreed.

NemeBro
Tidus beats Van for being a little less gay.

GrieverSquall
Vaan beats Tidus for being less, less, LESS selfish.

TacDavey
Tidus beats Vaan for being at least remotely important to the story line.

GrieverSquall
Vaan beats Tidus for being entirely more important than Tidus in his sequel.

NemeBro
That no one played.

At least FFX was a good game and just had a shitty sequel, XII sucked from the start.

GrieverSquall
Who cares.

Agreed. Final Fantasy X is better than Final Fantasy XII. But his sequel didn't ruined his previous game, at least.

NemeBro
No, the first game did that on its own. 131

GrieverSquall
Not really. Final Fantasy XII wasn't the greatest one, but it is not bad as Final Fantasy X-2.

linkownsyousobs
Tidus would win because he doesn't need a license to cut someones head off.

wakkawakkawakka
Really? This is still going on? And to think people are complaining about the Zack vs Jecht thread being a drag.

Final Fantasy XII was most likely an experiment gone wrong, so I tend to cut it some slack. Final Fantasy X marked the beginning of the end for powerful foes; Sin was great but Vayne sucked. However Gabranth and Dr.Cid own every villian in X(fanboyism).

Well XII wasn't all bad since critics loved it;mostly everyone that played it wouldn't so much as fart in it direction though. X was beloved by people who played it but wasn't given above and beyond credit.

TacDavey
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Really? This is still going on? And to think people are complaining about the Zack vs Jecht thread being a drag.

Final Fantasy XII was most likely an experiment gone wrong, so I tend to cut it some slack. Final Fantasy X marked the beginning of the end for powerful foes; Sin was great but Vayne sucked. However Gabranth and Dr.Cid own every villian in X(fanboyism).

Well XII wasn't all bad since critics loved it;mostly everyone that played it wouldn't so much as fart in it direction though. X was beloved by people who played it but wasn't given above and beyond credit.

Actually, it pretty much ended a while ago. Now we are just insulting the characters.

Call FFXII an experiment if you want, I call it an abomination. There was absolutely no redeeming qualities about that game. It remains the only FF game I simply couldn't finish. Apart from the ones I never played, obviously.

FFX was on to something. They had finally did a summon system that allowed you to take control of the summons. I had been waiting for that for a while. Plus, they allowed you to switch characters in the middle of battle, and fluently to. They were on their way to perfecting the turn based combat system. Then FFXII came along, grabbed the FF battle system, tied it to a chair and shot gunned it in the face.

What was left was this pathetic, mutilated attempt at a less RPG RPG battle system. Whats worse, they spent so much time trying to perfect this new battle system, that they screwed over practically every OTHER aspect of the game. So the game just didn't work at all in general.

Tidus wins because his game WASN'T an awkward rendition of half naked little boys running around with princesses for no apparent reason while they try to figure out the sub-par plot as the characters flip in and out of importance like some FF version of whack a mole, all the while fighting through a battle system that is actually more dangerous to the player than the characters since it makes you want to repeatedly slam your head into the closest sharp object until you loose consciousness.

wakkawakkawakka
I refuse to let anyone bash Dr.Cid and Gabranth without at least a fight. Everything else in that game is ready for open fire though.

Final Fantasy X was good from what I heard (I only played X-2). I do wonder what type of battle system XIII will have. Are they going back to the turn system or having a real-time combat system(the trailer throws me off).

Since I'm here I'll just make fun of Vaan and Penelo for being...just there. What was the point of Penelo's existance? Why is Vaan even there? Why didn't they just give XII a real-time battle system; wouldn't have been expected from the franchise but at least people wouldn't have to go to the hospital for relief. The puzzles in XII were just retarded not only because they were time consuming but you had no idea that the puzzle or challenge actually existed. I didn't even know there was an Omega model until I saw a walkthrough for XII.

But there was something about that game that can't make me feel pasionate hatred towards it like everyone else(Fran).

GrieverSquall
I must admit that Final Fantasy XII isn't the best Final Fantasy game so far, but there you have a lot of positives aspects about the design, the graphics, the effects, giant maps, realistic characteristics, realistic battles, etc. Is just realist. If we talk about the characters well... That was lame.

Oh... And Vaan wins because he isn't a crybaby like some selfish athlete.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x26/purplechick000/tidus-1.jpg

TacDavey
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I refuse to let anyone bash Dr.Cid and Gabranth without at least a fight. Everything else in that game is ready for open fire though.

Final Fantasy X was good from what I heard (I only played X-2). I do wonder what type of battle system XIII will have. Are they going back to the turn system or having a real-time combat system(the trailer throws me off).

It's not turn based really, but it's not FFXII. It's more like FFX-2, but you only control one character at a time, instead of the party. It's going to be lame, make no mistake.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Since I'm here I'll just make fun of Vaan and Penelo for being...just there. What was the point of Penelo's existance? Why is Vaan even there? Why didn't they just give XII a real-time battle system; wouldn't have been expected from the franchise but at least people wouldn't have to go to the hospital for relief. The puzzles in XII were just retarded not only because they were time consuming but you had no idea that the puzzle or challenge actually existed. I didn't even know there was an Omega model until I saw a walkthrough for XII.

They don't explain ANYTHING in that game. In order to get the best weapon, you actually can't open these specific treasure chests located throughout the game. They designed it so you would need the strategy guide, and they weren't even subtle about it. The only thing moderately good about the game WAS Fran. He voice was pretty cool. They could have taken all the scenes of her talking and made just that the game and it would have been better than that monstrosity.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I must admit that Final Fantasy XII isn't the best Final Fantasy game so far, but there you have a lot of positives aspects about the design, the graphics, the effects, giant maps, realistic characteristics, realistic battles, etc. Is just realist. If we talk about the characters well... That was lame.

Unfortunately those do not make up for everything else. You could have the prettiest game in the world, but if everything else about it sucks, then the game sucks.

GrieverSquall
Unfortunately, that's my opinion, for me the game isn't the best but it doesn't sucks either.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Unfortunately, that's my opinion, for me the game isn't the best but it doesn't sucks either.

Indeed, and I was stating my opinion that it does. A pretty game doesn't make a good game, if you ask me.

Luminatus
As I haven't played FFXII, I shall compare what I can judge from these two.

Their looks.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x26/purplechick000/tidus-1.jpg

http://moesucks.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/vaan.jpg


Vaan's pretty hot. Tidus is not.
Vaan wins.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
Indeed, and I was stating my opinion that it does.

Cool.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Luminatus
As I haven't played FFXII, I shall compare what I can judge from these two.

Their looks.

Vaan's pretty hot. Tidus is not.
Vaan wins.

Vaan is hot? You must be a girl then.
Well, Final Fantasy X's map is too small compared to Final Fantasy XII's.
Vaan wins, lol.

Luminatus
I'm not a girl. I'm just a little thing called bisexual.

FWahMaN
I wanna do Vaan 313. Shut up. That thing is female......................like it or not. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/icons/v2/icon7.gif

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Luminatus
I'm not a girl. I'm just a little thing called bisexual.

Ah, I see.
Well Vaan looks a bit like a girl anyway.

FWahMaN
Meh, I recently I printed out Vaan's pic; now it has cum shots all over it.

TacDavey
Originally posted by Luminatus
I'm not a girl. I'm just a little thing called bisexual. Originally posted by FWahMaN
Meh, I recently I printed out Vaan's pic; now it has cum shots all over it.

All of this being WAY more information than EVER needed to be put on this forum.

GrieverSquall
Well, we can talk about both games if you wish, Tac.
For me the battle system from Final Fantasy X is the best in the series, I hope you agree in this.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Well, we can talk about both games if you wish, Tac.
For me the battle system from Final Fantasy X is the best in the series, I hope you agree in this.

Yes, I think I'd have to agree. The ability to change party members, the fluidity of it, and the summon system. Of the FF games its much better than the ones before, and after it seems.

BloodKnight
I liked the battle system in X-2 more.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
Yes, I think I'd have to agree. The ability to change party members, the fluidity of it, and the summon system. Of the FF games its much better than the ones before, and after it seems.

Indeed, I wish Final Fantasy VII or VIII had this battle system... At least in a remake, you know. But, I have noticed that Final Fantasy X doesn't really have a world map like the other games.

Final Fantasy X-2 is crap.

Pyron_Knight
X-2 was a great game and was better than X in many areas. It gave you more control over the world and story than any other FF game to date.

GrieverSquall
Yeah, X-2 was better in the Mini-Game area.

TacDavey
A lot of people didn't like FFX-2. I didn't mind it though. It was a little annoying only being able to be girls, and a lot of the time it was a rather feminine game. Plus, only having three characters for the whole game...

But in the end, I didn't really dislike it. It had a whole lot of extra stuff to do.

GrieverSquall
Final Fantasy X-2 was the only game that I didn't finished. I don't mind if the protagonist are girls, but the story changed a lot, those Dresspheres are something quickly introduced and seems a bit random. I don't like the battle system, is boring and slow. Having hundred of abilities and only three characters is annoying... You end up using just two of them in the end and the rest remains as useless ones. The Music is horrible, I don't liked it at all, compared to Final Fantasy X OST (which is one of the best ones in the series) is crap. I don't like Paine and the new Yuna, Rikku remained as the same Rikku from before though. The only positive thing I see in that game are the mini-games, you know, you have a lot to do to kill time, but story-line wise the game is a fail.

wakkawakkawakka
Don't forget the clothes...or lack of clothes for that matter.Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I don't know. I can say that the blitzball in that game sucked(IMO). Along with that I question the whole love story in that game too. I mean using a planet destroying machina to say your girlfriend is a bit extreme don't you think?

XII had a Death-Star replica and a unimpressive main villian; I don't like Vayne. To this day I still wonder why the creator made Vaan. Just...why?

With X-2 at least you got something for completing the entire game. In XII all you get is a "Congrats! you did everything" title:and a wyrmhero blade. Seriously I was so mad when I found that out.

Nephthys
blink

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
With X-2 at least you got something for completing the entire game. In XII all you get is a "Congrats! you did everything" title:and a wyrmhero blade. Seriously I was so mad when I found that out.

At least Final Fantasy XII had a decent plot, unlike Final Fantasy X-2 which all seems completely random.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
At least Final Fantasy XII had a decent plot, unlike Final Fantasy X-2 which all seems completely random.

X-2's plot was a little... strange. I mean, there just so happened to be a guy from the past that looked exactly like Tidus? That seems like a stretch just to give us a mystery.

That being said, XII's plot wasn't much better. In my opinion, at least. Of all the FF story lines, it had to be one of the worst. There weren't really any plot twists to write home to mom about, the villains just weren't that intimidating, we've already been over the character development. Plus, sitting through breaks in the story so some old guy can talk about the political status of Dalmasca blah blah blah, was just annoying.

GrieverSquall
I agree, Tac. But XII's was indeed better than X-2's plot.

Final Fantasy X-2 (like I said before) seems to be completely random.

Nephthys
I completely disagree. X-2 had a plot that was cohesive and made sense. Unlike XII's where is was just, 'Uh, ok, I'm stealing a gem.... I guess. Now I'm finding a sword. It better be good at least. Nope, crap. Ok, now the Empire's doing something evil. Shocker. Stopped them. What, thats the end? Waaa?'

GrieverSquall
Me also. X-2's was a something quickly made-up random plot, simple as that. Well different standpoints.

TacDavey
Originally posted by Nephthys
I completely disagree. X-2 had a plot that was cohesive and made sense. Unlike XII's where is was just, 'Uh, ok, I'm stealing a gem.... I guess. Now I'm finding a sword. It better be good at least. Nope, crap. Ok, now the Empire's doing something evil. Shocker. Stopped them. What, thats the end? Waaa?'

I know, right? They made the sword completely useless. What a rip off.

Pyron_Knight
Stop spoiling XII for me. I'll be playing it for the first time tomorrow.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Stop spoiling XII for me. I'll be playing it for the first time tomorrow.

Final Fantasy XII isn't the best in the series, but isn't the worst either, X-2 is. But hey, I personally like it despite of the critics.

leonheartmm
tidus is tidus. vaan started out as a nobody and by the end of the game, was an even bigger nobody, with nothing to set him apart{much like the game itself}.

tidus all the way

FWahMaN
X-2 random?

Been years since I finished it, but giving someone the benefit of the doubt...

What's bad about a story being random?rolling on floor laughingI personally would not want to listen to a story/watch a movie where I know what will happen later on as I get into it. What is random and unexpected is usually what turns out to be surprising and rememberable. If that's not what someone meant, then never mind...

Originally posted by TacDavey
X-2's plot was a little... strange. I mean, there just so happened to be a guy from the past that looked exactly like Tidus? That seems like a stretch just to give us a mystery.

That being said, XII's plot wasn't much better. In my opinion, at least. Of all the FF story lines, it had to be one of the worst. There weren't really any plot twists to write home to mom about, the villains just weren't that intimidating, we've already been over the character development. Plus, sitting through breaks in the story so some old guy can talk about the political status of Dalmasca blah blah blah, was just annoying. Shuyin looks like Tidus, because Tidus was a faith based on Shuyin, the faith of course being "thoughts" or how the thoughts of the people of Zanarkand remembered Shuyin. For example, say you saw a picture of your dad when you were 2. 23 years later, you try to recall what he looked like in the image. Obviously you're not going to see him in your mind just as you saw him in the picture. Your image of him in your mind will be a little different. That is how the faith remembers Shuyin. Tidus is a thought based on the real person, Shuyin, which is why he doesn't look identical, but similar. That is why his clothes as well as his fighting moves are also similar. They are rememberances of the faith basically.

Likewise, there's a valid explanation why Ven from Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep looks 100% identical to Roxas, but I'm not going there obviously. 313

wakkawakkawakka
Thanks for that. However can we just agree that the two have an on par female cast. Well since the Vaan and Tidus debate is a dud, lets try comparing that. For exampe Lulu and Fran or Rikku and Penelo since Ashe and Yuna is already here.

At least XII had a better VA cast; some of those guys really got into their characters. Still XII had its own charm that you have to just like. At least XII let XIII be noticed unlike X-2 which made XI non-existent.(I'm joking)

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by FWahMaN
X-2 random?

Yeah, like hell.
Dresspheres = randomness.
For a moment I though: 'Hell! What the... This is Sailor Moon?'
Final Fantasy X story-line has been ruined... *claps*'

TacDavey
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Stop spoiling XII for me. I'll be playing it for the first time tomorrow.

Why did you come onto a forum where they where debating one of the characters then?

Originally posted by FWahMaN
Shuyin looks like Tidus, because Tidus was a faith based on Shuyin, the faith of course being "thoughts" or how the thoughts of the people of Zanarkand remembered Shuyin. For example, say you saw a picture of your dad when you were 2. 23 years later, you try to recall what he looked like in the image. Obviously you're not going to see him in your mind just as you saw him in the picture. Your image of him in your mind will be a little different. That is how the faith remembers Shuyin. Tidus is a thought based on the real person, Shuyin, which is why he doesn't look identical, but similar. That is why his clothes as well as his fighting moves are also similar. They are rememberances of the faith basically.

Really? I actually thought it might be something like that but I don't remember them ever specifying that in the game.

Originally posted by FWahMaN
Likewise, there's a valid explanation why Ven from Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep looks 100% identical to Roxas, but I'm not going there obviously. 313

There sure as hell better be. I mean seriously, lets not get lazy here people.

Nephthys
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Yeah, like hell.
Dresspheres = randomness.
For a moment I though: 'Hell! What the... This is Sailor Moon?'
Final Fantasy X story-line has been ruined... *claps*'

Actually its a move/throw back to the old version of gameplay FF games used to have, where you could choose the class of your characters.

wakkawakkawakka
Even so..some of those dressphere abilities were pretty useless as you progressed through the game. On top of that, you had to do a bunch of stuff just to get something that you really didn't need. So I can understand why some wouldn't like the dresspheres system in X-2 a little bit.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually its a move/throw back to the old version of gameplay FF games used to have, where you could choose the class of your characters.

That's true.
But story-wise is something completely random to Final Fantasy X, that's my opinion.

FWahMaN
SPOILERS hey Tec, damn, I don't remember where I heard this lol, been a loooong while since I played them...I'll google it..

Ok, I can't seem to find any reliable sources (they're all forums for some reason) but you can google "tidus faith based on shuyin" and you'll read many instances where this is mentioned. Not only that, but I doubt there is a better explanation. We know Tidus is based off of someone. He's not real after all. Shuyin is the closest match (looks, moves, clothes, abilities, etc.) big grin

heartlesshero17
New guy here!

And to bring more light to the Vaan vs Tidus talk. I think this would totally go in Vaan's favor if we count all the skill he's gain in RW and TA2. Though since we're only counting FFXII than I think its pretty even. It could go literally either way

First things to consider. Vaan has more experience with a sword. It is known in game he practices fighting those giant rats. He states its good practice for whats in the desert. Its not known how long he's been at it, only that it was long enough to get him the nickname "ratsbane". Tidus is pretty athletic. Also displays unusual abilities like how fast the guy can swim, tackling opponent blitzer out of the ring, and the way the guy can basically fly out the water and jump. Vaan's hunts are canon. Through dialog in Revenant wings and tactics advance 2 it seems Vaan doing hunts were actually true in FFXII at least and TA2(the later however doesn't count here)

In experience, Vaan is in the lead here due to training before the story and hunts. Tidus is far more athelitic. Vaan is capable of fighting 3 seeqs (with Balthier) unarmed which is pretty impressive for a normal human. Not to mention how he also sent Vayne flying over a railing and down a flight of stairs. Tidus has natural skill and for the idiot he seems to be, we have to admit he is a quick learner. I think Vaan might have the slight edge though

FWahMaN
-Edit-

"Vaan is better at picking out purses than Tidus."

Nephthys
Heh, I get it.

Pyron_Knight
I'll give my thoughts on who wins when i finally beat FF12.

Right now though, Vaan is still sexier.

And Tidus is more than likely the descendant of the Dream Shuyin. The Fayth recreated Zanarkand but the Dream Zanarkand basically became it sown world. People lived an died there. So when they originally made DZ, They probably made a replica of Shuyin but he died long ago and Tidus is his great great great great great great great grandson.

That's my theory anyway.

TacDavey
Originally posted by heartlesshero17
New guy here!

And to bring more light to the Vaan vs Tidus talk. I think this would totally go in Vaan's favor if we count all the skill he's gain in RW and TA2. Though since we're only counting FFXII than I think its pretty even. It could go literally either way

First things to consider. Vaan has more experience with a sword. It is known in game he practices fighting those giant rats. He states its good practice for whats in the desert. Its not known how long he's been at it, only that it was long enough to get him the nickname "ratsbane". Tidus is pretty athletic. Also displays unusual abilities like how fast the guy can swim, tackling opponent blitzer out of the ring, and the way the guy can basically fly out the water and jump. Vaan's hunts are canon. Through dialog in Revenant wings and tactics advance 2 it seems Vaan doing hunts were actually true in FFXII at least and TA2(the later however doesn't count here)

In experience, Vaan is in the lead here due to training before the story and hunts. Tidus is far more athelitic. Vaan is capable of fighting 3 seeqs (with Balthier) unarmed which is pretty impressive for a normal human. Not to mention how he also sent Vayne flying over a railing and down a flight of stairs. Tidus has natural skill and for the idiot he seems to be, we have to admit he is a quick learner. I think Vaan might have the slight edge though

If it turns out that Tidus is Shuyin's dream then I would give it to Tidus. One of the points made was that Tidus had no prior skill with a sword, but that would seem to be untrue if he has Shuyin's abilities.

Besides, we don't know how skilled Vaan is with a sword. Enough to kill rats, maybe but that simply isn't saying much. Apart from that, Vaan's skills are one big fat mystery, since they can be whatever you want them to be.

heartlesshero17
Again we know Vaan kills more than just rats. Its said early in game that the rats are just practice for whats in the desert. Its one of his opening lines in the game in fact. And If I remember correctly if you talk to people in lowtown its also mentioned there(the later I can't confirm atm). Yes we don't know how much experience he has had or how long he has been at it, but either way it is still more than what we can say for Tidus who has zero sword experience(but is again, a quick learner)

And what does Tidus having Shuyin's abilities prove? Just asking, cause I don't remember him doing anything special. Shuyin was a ex blitzball player who got recruited into the war tried to use Vegnagun and died. What did he do that was outstanding that gives Tidus a slight edge in this? And even than, being based off him all that would prove is that Shuyin himself wasn't all that skilled with a sword if Tidus is supposed to be him wouldn't it? What does shuyin connection to Tidus contribute to this? explain please.

GrieverSquall
Shuyin is just a push-over. Being dead proves how weak he is.

heartlesshero17
Well I wouldn't say him dying proves he's a push over lol. Even the best and the strongest can get killed. But he is nothing special. He just gets drafted into the army, but quickly gets arrested in bevelle when he tries to activate vegnagun. Now how he got into the area Vegnagun is a mystery.

I would like to believe he was badass and just busted into the place killing everybody, but there is nothing that hints to that and he gets taken down by a few soldiers so I doubt he fought his way in. He probably just snuck in mostly undetected. But yeah, he's nothing special from what is known so I don't see how that helps Tidus out

GrieverSquall
Being taken down by a few soldiers proves he's not so 'good' like other characters from the series. At least Auron's death was by the hands of a powerful enemy like Yunalesca if I am not mistaken.

heartlesshero17
From what I understand he was taken down twice. The first time where he got imprisoned, and a second where he and Lenne were trying to escape but got shot.

GrieverSquall
Oh... Too bad, you know... I haven't finished Final Fantasy X-2 because I don't like the game. I have no knowledge about some details, I remember Yuna having a dream with Tidus and was exactly the same situation. But I never comprehended that scene...

heartlesshero17
Shuyin is actually a pretty tragic character. Probably the only character I actually cared about in X-2. You should finish it if you ever have the chance.

if you can get past the more cheesy childish story, its a pretty good game with awesome gameplay. I guess the story never bothered me.I enjoyed Revenant wings story and FFV is my favorite FF(aside from 8), so I guess more silly stories don't bother me

GrieverSquall
I suppose... But I don't think so, I don't like anything from that game at all. I'm playing Revenant Wings now, I think is a good game.

heartlesshero17
Glad to hear someone else who likes it. I got it as a gift thinking it'll be lame. I never did like Vaan. Didn't really hate him, but he was just kinda meh. Revenant wings made him a much likeable guy imo. He doesn't act all cool like he does in tactics advance 2 but you get to know him better as a character finally.

I just finally got the secret ending of the game. Not going to spoil it for ya of course

GrieverSquall
Yeah, I don't dislike Final Fantasy XII either, is a good game, in my opinion. I agree there, Revenants Wings shows Vaan by another perspective, in other words, as a leader. I must admit he's doing good.

Just notice other thing... Kytes. Kytes passed in being a nobody-normal human and in one year he grew impressively stronger, he has become a Black Mage, imagine Vaan.

heartlesshero17
I was more confused by Filo. A girl who you can talk to like twice in lowtown actually got an important role in this game and turns out to be a really capable fighter lol

<< THERE IS MORE FROM THIS THREAD HERE >>