John Preston/Agent Zero versus Wesley Gibson/Fox...

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Rogue Jedi
John Preston and Agent Zero's names come up in the loom of fate. Wesley Gibson and Fox are assigned as a team to take them out.

They track Preston and Zero down to Nakatomi plaza. The cleric and the mutant are on the top floor looking down on Fox and Gibson as the assassins enter the building. Gibson and Fox know where they are, they must make their way to them and kill them. The plaza is deserted except for the four combatants, it is fully lit and fully powered.



Preston and Zero are obviously working as a team here. Can they beat the bullet bending assassins, or do the weapons of fate win?

Preston is armed with his twin pistols, Zero is armed with the pistols he had in "Origins."....Fox is armed with the gun she had against Cross in the drug store, and Gibson has twin Beretta's.

Alpha Centauri
Well, by the very nature of his technique, Preston is done for.

Gun Katas teach to anticipate the trajectory of bullets. He won't have a clue that he's fighting people that can bend them, nor will he know that can be done. Thus, he has no way of getting around it. So that's him dealt with.

As for Agent Zero, I haven't seen anything that'd suggest he has what it takes to beat either of the others.

-AC

Rogue Jedi
Thing is, the bullet benders have never been shown shooting rapid fire bullets out of the air, Preston, in the first scene in "Equilibrium", used rapid fire.

Alpha Centauri
So then he kills them as soon as he sees them.

-AC

Rogue Jedi
He, Preston? Gotta remember that the bullet benders can slow everything down with their panic attack thing.

As for Zero, here:

p6D3m7reBbk&NR=1

Alpha Centauri
Yes, I do know about Zero and what he's capable of.

Not all of us were introduced to these characters by Hollywood.

So he's really good with weapons. It's not exactly looking good for Gibson and Fox is it? Not much more to say.

I do think everyone in that video were a bunch of tools for saying they respect the fans. Slightly off topic.

-AC

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, I do know about Zero and what he's capable of.

Not all of us were introduced to these characters by Hollywood. Well, this is the MVF, hollywood is what we discuss here. Wanna talk comics? Mosey on back to the comic forum, pardner, you seem to have quite the fanbase there. wink Comics mean shit here.

Yeah, and the bullet benders suck ass with weapons right? haermm

K.

Kazenji
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Well, this is the MVF, hollywood is what we discuss here.

No shit............

he's only saying why are you introducing Agent Zero to him where he already knows about him long before the Wolverine movie got released.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Kazenji
No shit............

he's only saying why are you introducing Agent Zero to him where he already knows about him long before the Wolverine movie got released. Mhm, I got that, and there is also a side order of "tsk tsk all you know is the movies, RJ." roll eyes (sarcastic)

I'm quite aware of his love for the comics. He claimed Zero had no movie feats that can compete with the bullet benders, I provided feats for him, simple as that.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


Gun Katas teach to anticipate the trajectory of bullets. He won't have a clue that he's fighting people that can bend them, nor will he know that can be done. Thus, he has no way of getting around it. So that's him dealt with.



-AC As for this, they have general knowledge of each other. The bullet benders know what Gun Kata is, and they know Zero is a mutant with mad skills.

And Preston/Zero know what the bullet benders can do.

My fault for not saying so in the OP.

Darth Martin
Zero is the most skilled gunfighter here. I also agree that the gunbending ability will cause Preston problems. The katas aren't designed to anticipate this tactic.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Well, this is the MVF, hollywood is what we discuss here. Wanna talk comics? Mosey on back to the comic forum, pardner, you seem to have quite the fanbase there. wink Comics mean shit here.

Are you legitimately going to pull that stuff on me, when I spent time trying to explain to you why you couldn't use Star Wars books? It's nice that you've finally accepted the rules and that I was right, but don't act like you always have.

Also, I wasn't involving comics. You should know I wouldn't do that. I have, however, seen the movie. You could never educate me on anything comic based. Don't presume you could. I know the characters involved.

Nice to see you've been stalking me, though. It's flattering. Venturing into forums you have zero knowledge of just to observe me. So flattering.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Yeah, and the bullet benders suck ass with weapons right? haermm

Feel free to quote me saying that, feel free to quote me saying: "He has no feats that can compete with the bullet benders.".

You'll actually find I implied that I favour him more than them.

By the way, it was never stated he's a mutant in the movie. He exhibited no abilities that were said to be a result of mutation.

-AC

Rogue Jedi
K haermm

jaden101
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
As for this, they have general knowledge of each other. The bullet benders know what Gun Kata is, and they know Zero is a mutant with mad skills.

And Preston/Zero know what the bullet benders can do.

My fault for not saying so in the OP.

Him knowing what they can do doesn't mean that gun kata was created with bullet bending trajectories in it's training regime. Which clearly it wasn't and any implication to make it so would be changing the character beyond screen feats. So...In short, Preston "knowing" about bullet bending doesn't mean he can do anything to counter it. Knowledge isn't power...Acting upon knowledge is power. It's not enough to know about bullet bending. He has to be able to do something to stop it killing him...He can't....So he dies quickly.

How anyone can consider Agent Zero's feats in better than Wesley Gibson's clearly hasn't seen the movies. Gibson wiped out the entire fraternity of extremely highly trained assassins. Zero killed a handful of militia. Gibson snipe at the end of the film was about 10 times the distance of Zero's shot into the barn. Presumably he was also aiming for Wolverine and not the old couple...So he missed...Gibson shot was also infinitely more impressive. Through a doughnut, through a tin, through several car windscreens etc etc.

Rogue Jedi
True, true, but Zero is much more agile than Wesley. The fraternity members were just standing around. And he is a better shot, and WAY faster.

When the bullets start flying, Preston is gonna be like BAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAM, rapid fire out the yazoo, I don't think the bullet benders can shoot all his bullets out of the air.

jaden101
Granted Zero's reaction time and draw time is insanely fast and better than Wesley's. But Zero needs a line of sight...Wesley doesn't.

And they weren't just standing around...Why would they be? They were being over run by suicide bomber rats. Standing around would've been a stupid thing to do...Yes they were distracted but even then they were still far more dangerous adversaries than a bunch of African militia.

Rogue Jedi
All right, they weren't "standing around", poor choice of words on my part, but compared to the way Zero can hop around like a cracked up Yoda, they might as well have been.

dadudemon
Easy win for Zero and Preston.

Preston is close to soloing Fox and Gibson.

I'd give Preston a victory, by himself, 6 out of 10 times.

Zero is just overkill.

He can beat them, by himself, 10 out of 10 times.

Reasoning: Gibson can stop 1 or 2 bullets...at the very most. He isn't stopping the rain from Preston.

Speed goes to both Preston and Zero. Zero has them all.

Skill: bullet bending is pretty much the only edge Fox/Gibson has. Preston is obviously more skilled with guns, H2H, and with swords. Not sure about Zero's sword skills, but I have to give him the edge over Preston on the gun skills, only because of his speed and obvious super-human agility/strength.

Intelligence - Preston, by far. Zero seems smart enough, but there's no reason to assume he's any smarter than Gibson/Fox.





Bullet bending does nothing to improve Gibson's or Fox's chances: the bullet still ends up in the same location they are intending it, it just travels in an arch. Preston is dodging the bullet, not the trajectory. Where the bullet ends up is what he dodges. I'm not even sure why any of you think that's a legit point.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by dadudemon
Preston is dodging the bullet, not the trajectory. Where the bullet ends up is what he dodges. I'm not even sure why any of you think that's a legit point.

Um......The trajectory plays a role:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_%28film%29#Gun_Kata

Gun Kata is a fictional gun-fighting martial art discipline that is a significant part of the film. It is based upon the premise that, given the positions of the participants in a gun battle, the trajectories of fire are statistically predictable.

And a Cleric does not "dodge" bullets:

. By the same token, the trajectories of incoming fire are also statistically predictable, so by assuming the appropriate stance, one can keep one's body clear of the most likely way of enemy bullets.

It's like they know beforehand, and move/position themselves beforehand. Neo dodges bullets. YuLaw dodges bullets, Selene dodges bullets. Clerics do not.

But I agree that Preston/Zero win here, why? Rapid fire and Zero's agility/speed/mutant uberness are too much for the bullet benders.

jaden101
RJ is right. Gun Kata has nothing to do with dodging bullets. It has to do with staying out of the statistically predictable trajectories. Preston has no way to know where that trajectory will be coming from due to the bullet bending and so won't know which was is the correct one for him to move to be out of the way.

Fact of the matter is that Gibson's screen feats are vastly more impressive that Preston's or Zero's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAd9hdteAeo

This one scene means he'd rape Preston and Zero.

As for intelligence. How smart and skilled to you have to be to set up a shot like he did at the end of the movie?

Zero's 3 feats...An open shot snipe which Gibson's is infinitely more impressive than. Taking out a handful of militia in the raid at the start of the movie. Gibson's attack on the fraternity kills far more people who are far more dangerous. And he shoots the cigar out of Wolverine's mouth from 15 yards (woop-dee-doo)

Gibson's showing against the fraternity is also far more impressive than Preston's shootout scene. Gibson kills until weapons are expended and then snatches his dead enemies weapons from mid air before they've hit the ground in order to continue killing. He does this numerous times. Preston reloads from his clips in his cloak and the ones on the floor.

You can only go by what you see and Gibson's showing is far more impressive than either Zero or Preston...By a LOOOONNGGG way.

Alpha Centauri
They actually state in the movie that gun katas are specifically designed to evade a predicted trajectory.

I'm not sure how you could be so in love with the movie and not know that.

-AC

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by jaden101
RJ is right. Gun Kata has nothing to do with dodging bullets. It has to do with staying out of the statistically predictable trajectories. Preston has no way to know where that trajectory will be coming from due to the bullet bending and so won't know which was is the correct one for him to move to be out of the way.

Fact of the matter is that Gibson's screen feats are vastly more impressive that Preston's or Zero's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAd9hdteAeo

This one scene means he'd rape Preston and Zero.

As for intelligence. How smart and skilled to you have to be to set up a shot like he did at the end of the movie?

Zero's 3 feats...An open shot snipe which Gibson's is infinitely more impressive than. Taking out a handful of militia in the raid at the start of the movie. Gibson's attack on the fraternity kills far more people who are far more dangerous. And he shoots the cigar out of Wolverine's mouth from 15 yards (woop-dee-doo)

Gibson's showing against the fraternity is also far more impressive than Preston's shootout scene. Gibson kills until weapons are expended and then snatches his dead enemies weapons from mid air before they've hit the ground in order to continue killing. He does this numerous times. Preston reloads from his clips in his cloak and the ones on the floor.

You can only go by what you see and Gibson's showing is far more impressive than either Zero or Preston...By a LOOOONNGGG way. You gotta remember that Preston was outnumbered many times and kicked ass as Wesley did, and that one on one/two on two battles are different than one on many. Also that Preston, in this scenario, has knowledge of Wesley and bullet bending.

Hell, Preston doesn't even need is eyes. He could kill the lights and take them out with ease.

jaden101
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You gotta remember that Preston was outnumbered many times and kicked ass as Wesley did, and that one on one/two on two battles are different than one on many. Also that Preston, in this scenario, has knowledge of Wesley and bullet bending.

Hell, Preston doesn't even need is eyes. He could kill the lights and take them out with ease.

As I've already said. Having knowledge of them isn't enough. As a fact, Gun Kata was never devised with curved bullet trajectories in mind. Therefor Preston's Gun Kata is completely useless as he would have no idea where the shots would be coming from. He may well know the origin of the bullet but he would move according to that...Even though it's entirely plausible that the bullet might hit him at a 90 degree angle from it's origin point given what Fox did with the full 360 degree curved shot.

This is the crux of it. Fox and Gibson can shoot both Preston and Zero from outwith the line of sight. They could shoot out the window of a different floor and curve the bullet round and in the window to take out their enemy.

As for Preston turning out the lights. This didn't have anything to do with him having keen senses. It was still based on the Gun Kata principles of bullet trajectories being predictable. Fox's and Gibson's aren't predictable using the principles of Gun Kata.

So he dies.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by jaden101
As I've already said. Having knowledge of them isn't enough. As a fact, Gun Kata was never devised with curved bullet trajectories in mind. Therefor Preston's Gun Kata is completely useless as he would have no idea where the shots would be coming from. He may well know the origin of the bullet but he would move according to that...Even though it's entirely plausible that the bullet might hit him at a 90 degree angle from it's origin point given what Fox did with the full 360 degree curved shot.

This is the crux of it. Fox and Gibson can shoot both Preston and Zero from outwith the line of sight. They could shoot out the window of a different floor and curve the bullet round and in the window to take out their enemy.

As for Preston turning out the lights. This didn't have anything to do with him having keen senses. It was still based on the Gun Kata principles of bullet trajectories being predictable. Fox's and Gibson's aren't predictable using the principles of Gun Kata.

So he dies. Yeah, I guess you're right. I suppose what it comes down to is stealth, who has the advantage there?

If Preston gets the jump on the bullet benders, he'll open up with rapid fire and likely they'll go down. Same with Zero getting the jump on them. I don't recall the bullet benders being very stealthy. However, being what they are, "Weapons of fate", one could argue that stealth is one of their areas of expertise.

On the other hand, the bullet benders are on the offensive here, IMO being in Preston and Zero's shoes, they could work together and form a trap of sorts. Lotta possibilities.

jaden101
Lots of possibilities indeed. We could script a win for either side using multiple scenarios but that'd be a waste of time. As I say, the onscreen feats of Gibson far outmatch those of Preston and especially Zero (obviously seeing as he didn't have much with not being a really big part of the Wolverine movie)

I think if Zero had a movie then some of his feats would be utterly unbelievable but alas we don't have much to go on and what we do have to go on...He'd die.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by jaden101
Lots of possibilities indeed. We could script a win for either side using multiple scenarios but that'd be a waste of time. As I say, the onscreen feats of Gibson far outmatch those of Preston and especially Zero (obviously seeing as he didn't have much with not being a really big part of the Wolverine movie)

I think if Zero had a movie then some of his feats would be utterly unbelievable but alas we don't have much to go on and what we do have to go on...He'd die. I'm trying really hard no to "script", I'm just saying that if Preston gets the drop on Wesley, Wesley will likely be done. Remember that scene in Wanted where the old man got the drop on Wesley?

What impressed me most about Zero was when he dropped like tenish guys in the opening scene without even looking at them. That shit was uber, man. That and his agility.

If I were to argue for the bullet benders, I would bring up the fact that Wesley and Fox worked great as a team. Remember the scene where Wesley flips the gold Mustang off her Vette and caps the Don?

jaden101
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I'm trying really hard no to "script", I'm just saying that if Preston gets the drop on Wesley, Wesley will likely be done. Remember that scene in Wanted where the old man got the drop on Wesley?

What impressed me most about Zero was when he dropped like tenish guys in the opening scene without even looking at them. That shit was uber, man. That and his agility.

If I were to argue for the bullet benders, I would bring up the fact that Wesley and Fox worked great as a team. Remember the scene where Wesley flips the gold Mustang off her Vette and caps the Don?

Zero's opening is impressive but not on the level of the attack on the fraternity.

Rogue Jedi
Well, there weren't as many people around to shoot.....

jaden101
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Well, there weren't as many people around to shoot.....

Almost reminds me of Full Metal Jacket.

dadudemon
Originally posted by jaden101
RJ is right. Gun Kata has nothing to do with dodging bullets. It has to do with staying out of the statistically predictable trajectories. Preston has no way to know where that trajectory will be coming from due to the bullet bending and so won't know which was is the correct one for him to move to be out of the way.

Fact of the matter is that Gibson's screen feats are vastly more impressive that Preston's or Zero's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAd9hdteAeo

This one scene means he'd rape Preston and Zero.

As for intelligence. How smart and skilled to you have to be to set up a shot like he did at the end of the movie?

Zero's 3 feats...An open shot snipe which Gibson's is infinitely more impressive than. Taking out a handful of militia in the raid at the start of the movie. Gibson's attack on the fraternity kills far more people who are far more dangerous. And he shoots the cigar out of Wolverine's mouth from 15 yards (woop-dee-doo)

Gibson's showing against the fraternity is also far more impressive than Preston's shootout scene. Gibson kills until weapons are expended and then snatches his dead enemies weapons from mid air before they've hit the ground in order to continue killing. He does this numerous times. Preston reloads from his clips in his cloak and the ones on the floor.

You can only go by what you see and Gibson's showing is far more impressive than either Zero or Preston...By a LOOOONNGGG way.

No. What I said. To both you and AC.

"Bullet bending does nothing to improve Gibson's or Fox's chances: the bullet still ends up in the same location they are intending it, it just travels in an arch. Preston is dodging the bullet, not the trajectory. Where the bullet ends up is what he dodges. I'm not even sure why any of you think that's a legit point."

Preston dodges the end location, not the actual trajectory. The trajectory is the path.

More specifically, Preston is dodging the most highly probable trajectories that would intersect with his person. (If we want to get pedantic about it, sure, he's dodging the trajectory.) He just happens to have mastered it.

How is bending a bullet from point A to point B going to hit Preston any better? It's still the same location, when it crosses with Preston's person, as it is anywhere else. When do we ever see Preston hide behind a corner? Correct. When do we see him always go out in the open? Correct.

This is not debatable. This is the last time I will discuss this: It's point A to point B. No amount of fanboyism or anti-character arguments will ever ever ever change anything I've stated.

Watch the movies. If you (not just you Jaden, this is the "ambiguous" you version) post anything that does not agree with me, you are incorrect.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by jaden101
Almost reminds me of Full Metal Jacket.


haermm GREAT flick.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by dadudemon
No. What I said. To both you and AC.

"Bullet bending does nothing to improve Gibson's or Fox's chances: the bullet still ends up in the same location they are intending it, it just travels in an arch. Preston is dodging the bullet, not the trajectory. Where the bullet ends up is what he dodges. I'm not even sure why any of you think that's a legit point."

Preston dodges the end location, not the actual trajectory. The trajectory is the path.

More specifically, Preston is dodging the most highly probable trajectories that would intersect with his person. (If we want to get pedantic about it, sure, he's dodging the trajectory.) He just happens to have mastered it.

How is bending a bullet from point A to point B going to hit Preston any better? It's still the same location, when it crosses with Preston's person, as it is anywhere else. When do we ever see Preston hide behind a corner? Correct. When do we see him always go out in the open? Correct.

This is not debatable. This is the last time I will discuss this: It's point A to point B. No amount of fanboyism or anti-character arguments will ever ever ever change anything I've stated.

Watch the movies. If you (not just you Jaden, this is the "ambiguous" you version) post anything that does not agree with me, you are incorrect.

Yes, the style is designed to predict the path and THUS, where the bullet will be so that he can avoid being there.

As soon as the bullet comes from Wesley's gun, it's highly unlikely he will know the end result because he won't know the trajectory. They base trajectory upon how the person is firing the gun, the stance, the distance etc. Do they not?

So, he'd probably do that, correct? Wesley could be standing in a stance from which Preston predicts the bullet's destination based on the trajectory. If so, how does he figure into the fact that the man bends bullets and puts the bullets on trajectories he doesn't know are possible?

You assume that the bullet's destination is him; that the whole gun kata style is based on "Don't get shot because they're going to aim at you.". Obviously they don't want to get shot, and they reason they don't is because they know the path the bullet will take and get out of there.

Plus, both sides have knowledge of each other, according to RJ.

Wesley knows what gun kata is, Preston knows what bullet bending is. Who will benefit?

Wesley can work around gun kata. Preston can't work around not knowing where the bullet will end up. As soon as it leaves the gun, he isn't going to have any clue where it'll go.

-AC

dadudemon
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, the style is designed to predict the path and THUS, where the bullet will be so that he can avoid being there.

As soon as the bullet comes from Wesley's gun, it's highly unlikely he will know the end result because he won't know the trajectory. They base trajectory upon how the person is firing the gun, the stance, the distance etc. Do they not?

So, he'd probably do that, correct? Wesley could be standing in a stance from which Preston predicts the bullet's destination based on the trajectory. If so, how does he figure into the fact that the man bends bullets and puts the bullets on trajectories he doesn't know are possible?

You assume that the bullet's destination is him; that the whole gun kata style is based on "Don't get shot because they're going to aim at you.". Obviously they don't want to get shot, and they reason they don't is because they know the path the bullet will take and get out of there.

Plus, both sides have knowledge of each other, according to RJ.

Wesley knows what gun kata is, Preston knows what bullet bending is. Who will benefit?

Wesley can work around gun kata. Preston can't work around not knowing where the bullet will end up. As soon as it leaves the gun, he isn't going to have any clue where it'll go.

-AC


I didn't read your post, so if you agreed with me, I apologize in advance.


"Watch the movies. If you (not just you Jaden, this is the "ambiguous" you version) post anything that does not agree with me, you are incorrect. "

Rogue Jedi
From what I am reading here, and recalling both flicks, I have come to realize a few things:

1. Bullet bending will only come into play if Preston is hiding behind a pillar, or around a corner, behind any object. From what I remember, the bullet benders did not alter the trajectory of their shots unless there was an obstacle between them and the target,

2. DDM is right, point A (the bullet leaving the gun) and point C (the bullets intended target) is all that matters. Point B (the flight path of the bullet) is of little if any importance. Preston positions himself in such a fashion as to avoid where the bullet will end up. As I said above, bullet bending will be an advantage only when Preston is using cover.

3. The bullet benders displayed little if any stealth. No way they sneak up on Preston or Zero.

4. Zero is basically Bullseye (Daredevil) with a gun. He could solo here with ease.

5. Already covered this, but no way no how do Wesley and Fox:

A: Block Prestons rapid fire.
B: Track Zero, deal with him, deal with Gun Kata AND point A.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
From what I am reading here, and recalling both flicks, I have come to realize a few things:

1. Bullet bending will only come into play if Preston is hiding behind a pillar, or around a corner, behind any object. From what I remember, the bullet benders did not alter the trajectory of their shots unless there was an obstacle between them and the target

It doesn't matter if they bend out of necessity or preference, what matters is that they can and we have no reason to believe they'd not use it.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
2. DDM is right, point A (the bullet leaving the gun) and point C (the bullets intended target) is all that matters. Point B (the flight path of the bullet) is of little if any importance. Preston positions himself in such a fashion as to avoid where the bullet will end up. As I said above, bullet bending will be an advantage only when Preston is using cover.

What if where the bullet ends up isn't Preston? What if where the bullet ends up is where Wesley knows Preston will BE after judging its trajectory?

Wesley knows all about gun kata, remember.

Wesley could use Space Invaders style. Shoot where he'll be, not where he is.

What then? Dead Preston. Give him a sign that makes him think you're gonna give off one trajectory, then aim it elseways.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
3. The bullet benders displayed little if any stealth. No way they sneak up on Preston or Zero.

4. Zero is basically Bullseye (Daredevil) with a gun. He could solo here with ease.

5. Already covered this, but no way no how do Wesley and Fox:

A: Block Prestons rapid fire.
B: Track Zero, deal with him, deal with Gun Kata AND point A.

As soon as DDM shows up, you "realise" the opposite to what you previously thought and come to an utterly swift conclusion that could have been solved by watching the movies. How predictable. That can't be it, though. It's never you caving in to his pressure.

So, let's get this straight.

You thought this would be a delicately balanced match, you put all the rules in...THEN, you "recalled" the movies and decided Zero would solo? It's that easy?

Can I make a suggestion for the billionth time? Ok.

Watch the movies first, evaluate the capabilities of both combatants or sides, THEN post.

If you're so sure Zero could solo, and it took you so little time to realise this, why couldn't you have saved us a thread?

This is what I mean about you and your threads. You don't think.

-AC

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


It doesn't matter if they bend out of necessity or preference, what matters is that they can and we have no reason to believe they'd not use it.



What if where the bullet ends up isn't Preston? What if where the bullet ends up is where Wesley knows Preston will BE after judging its trajectory?

Wesley knows all about gun kata, remember.

Wesley could use Space Invaders style. Shoot where he'll be, not where he is.

What then? Dead Preston. Give him a sign that makes him think you're gonna give off one trajectory, then aim it elseways.



As soon as DDM shows up, you "realise" the opposite to what you previously thought and come to an utterly swift conclusion that could have been solved by watching the movies. How predictable. That can't be it, though. It's never you caving in to his pressure.

So, let's get this straight.

You thought this would be a delicately balanced match, you put all the rules in...THEN, you "recalled" the movies and decided Zero would solo? It's that easy?

Can I make a suggestion for the billionth time? Ok.

Watch the movies first, evaluate the capabilities of both combatants or sides, THEN post.

If you're so sure Zero could solo, and it took you so little time to realise this, why couldn't you have saved us a thread?

This is what I mean about you and your threads. You don't think.

-AC

What good would bullet bending do when the bullet benders have clear line of sight to their target?



Wesley knows about Gun kata, he isn't trained in it. He knows what Preston can do, that doesn't mean he will be able to judge where Preston will be. Moot point, because as I stated earlier, rapid fire is something the bullet benders are never shown blocking with their bullets. Preston shoots at pretty much full automatic speed, his guns even have a full auto setting.



DDM showing up has nothing to do with it, you gotta get off this thing about he and I being an internet tag team. I was watching Zero on my laptop right before I posted that, and I realized "Shit, dude could solo the bullet benders." Simple as that.

Here's what happened:

I started the thread with the mindset that it is an even matchup.

The more I thought about it, afetr discussing it with others here, and watching Zero in action some more, I decided that he could solo IMO.

Problem?



Tell me something.....Fox and Gibson are sweeping the building looking for Preston and Zero. Zero emerges and starts flipping around like Yoda on steroids, firing as he goes, while Preston emerges firing full auto fire. You really think the bullet benders can deal with that? Please, quote a screen feat that proves they can. I recall none.



And for the record, I see no one else complaining about this thread. See, that's YOUR problem, you feel the need step in and flex your E pecs (Insert insane Joker laugh here), declare yourself forum lord, and dictate how you want things to be. Don't like my threads? Why post in them? Why the drama? If you don't like the way I do things here, two options:

Place me on ignore.

Report me.

jaden101
Originally posted by dadudemon
No. What I said. To both you and AC.

"Bullet bending does nothing to improve Gibson's or Fox's chances: the bullet still ends up in the same location they are intending it, it just travels in an arch. Preston is dodging the bullet, not the trajectory. Where the bullet ends up is what he dodges. I'm not even sure why any of you think that's a legit point."

Preston dodges the end location, not the actual trajectory. The trajectory is the path.

More specifically, Preston is dodging the most highly probable trajectories that would intersect with his person. (If we want to get pedantic about it, sure, he's dodging the trajectory.) He just happens to have mastered it.

How is bending a bullet from point A to point B going to hit Preston any better? It's still the same location, when it crosses with Preston's person, as it is anywhere else. When do we ever see Preston hide behind a corner? Correct. When do we see him always go out in the open? Correct.

This is not debatable. This is the last time I will discuss this: It's point A to point B. No amount of fanboyism or anti-character arguments will ever ever ever change anything I've stated.

Watch the movies. If you (not just you Jaden, this is the "ambiguous" you version) post anything that does not agree with me, you are incorrect.

No...You're wrong...Preston moves based on what he believes will be the trajectory of the bullet...Which as far as he knows and is trained in is a straight line from the shooter to him...So he moves left or right out of the way....If the bullet comes from the side at a 90 degree angle to the shooter then he'd either move into it and get hit...or straight away from it...and get hit.

How given that we know that the fraternity members can either shoot dead straight or can bend bullets a full 360 degrees then the trajectories can literally come from any angle relative to the shooter. Preston is simply not trained to avoid that. Those trajectories don't fall within the statistical probabilities that Preston's Gun Kata was based upon. Therefor it is useless. Preston is not superhuman. He cannot see the bullet and react. He works merely on what he knows the physics of bullets to be in his training. Unfortunately he's never had to deal with the concept of bullets bending to hit their targets. He has no way to compensate.

Also on a side note. We talked about Zero's dead on sight with shots...Is anything he did impressive as shooting the wings off a fly without any training whatsoever?

Is anything Preston done even close to that level of skill?



Not true. Bullet bending can come into play is Wesley and Fox are behind cover. They can still hit their targets from that where as their targets can't hit them. Opposite applies to their targets. Preston can't hit Wesley if Preston is in cover...Wesley CAN hit him though.





My point above...Did he do anything that even approaches shooting the wings off a fly while completely untrained?...No....Did his sniping shot come anywhere near to being as difficult as Wesley's?...No

What in the movies even gave you the idea that Zero is more skilled? That he shot Wolverine in the head from across the room or that he shot a cigar out of his mouth from 15 feet away?

His only other 2 impressive feats were his snipe shot (which he actually missed) which is nowhere near the level of skill shown by Wesley's....Or the raid on the militia in which he dropped a handful of them....Which was nowhere near as impressive as Wesley's destruction of the fraternity.

Wesley also did all that within an extremely short time frame of discovering his skills.

Remember...We go on what is ACTUALLY ON SCREEN....On that basis Preston is better than Zero...And Preston is nowhere near as good as Wesley.

Plain and simple.

Rogue Jedi
How is Preston nowhere as good as Wesley?

dadudemon
Originally posted by jaden101
No...You're wrong...Preston moves based on what he believes will be the trajectory of the bullet...Which as far as he knows and is trained in is a straight line from the shooter to him...So he moves left or right out of the way....If the bullet comes from the side at a 90 degree angle to the shooter then he'd either move into it and get hit...or straight away from it...and get hit.

How given that we know that the fraternity members can either shoot dead straight or can bend bullets a full 360 degrees then the trajectories can literally come from any angle relative to the shooter. Preston is simply not trained to avoid that. Those trajectories don't fall within the statistical probabilities that Preston's Gun Kata was based upon. Therefor it is useless. Preston is not superhuman. He cannot see the bullet and react. He works merely on what he knows the physics of bullets to be in his training. Unfortunately he's never had to deal with the concept of bullets bending to hit their targets. He has no way to compensate.

Also on a side note. We talked about Zero's dead on sight with shots...Is anything he did impressive as shooting the wings off a fly without any training whatsoever?

Is anything Preston done even close to that level of skill?



Not true. Bullet bending can come into play is Wesley and Fox are behind cover. They can still hit their targets from that where as their targets can't hit them. Opposite applies to their targets. Preston can't hit Wesley if Preston is in cover...Wesley CAN hit him though.





My point above...Did he do anything that even approaches shooting the wings off a fly while completely untrained?...No....Did his sniping shot come anywhere near to being as difficult as Wesley's?...No

What in the movies even gave you the idea that Zero is more skilled? That he shot Wolverine in the head from across the room or that he shot a cigar out of his mouth from 15 feet away?

His only other 2 impressive feats were his snipe shot (which he actually missed) which is nowhere near the level of skill shown by Wesley's....Or the raid on the militia in which he dropped a handful of them....Which was nowhere near as impressive as Wesley's destruction of the fraternity.

Wesley also did all that within an extremely short time frame of discovering his skills.

Remember...We go on what is ACTUALLY ON SCREEN....On that basis Preston is better than Zero...And Preston is nowhere near as good as Wesley.

Plain and simple.

I'm not wrong. You're wrong. You're probably the smartest one here (no doubt, actually), you know that the arc is so "straight" that it does nothing but make a difference of fractions of an inch. Still point A and point B. For all intents and purposes, it is a straight line to Preston's "movement" area.That small fractions of an inch difference due to the traveling in an arch, will do nothing to Preston's movements. Like I said earlier, he isn't hiding behind pillars or walls: he is out in the open.

There is also a major problem, here: why is Preston, who is definitely the faster gun slinger, being out matched by a very slowly arch bullet? You do realize that by the time Wesley or Fox even gets off one bullet in an arch (which Preston will easily dodge (if you want to replace that with trajectory just to feel better about it, go ahead)), Preston will have fired many bullets. Instead of bending bullets, Wesley would block 1 bullet (cause we never see anyone block more than one bullet at a time) and get raped with the remaining bullets. Even IF Wesley and Fox get off two curved bullets, the arch is relatively straight to Preston's movement's when he dodges bullets/trajectories. It's not as though Preston is moving about 5 feet in microseconds, to dodge the incoming fire (or trajectories, since you guys love pretending there's a major difference)).

Reality: Both Fox and Wesley end up swiss cheese before they can get off any bullets, 9 out of 10 times. The other 1 time, one of them gets off one "bent" bullet, and Preston dodges it anyway because the small inches Preston moves to avoid that bullet make the "curved" trajectory "straight" for all intents and purposes.


If you don't believe it, watch the scene again where Wesley shoots around that friggin' hottie to hit the target behind her: in the mere inches Preston would move, there's no difference for Preston.

Show me where John even gets scathed by ANY gunfire, and I'll believe that bullet bending will make a negligible difference.

Again, how does this even matter that John can take both Wes and Fox on at the same time when Agent 0 can definitely do it by himself? Put them both together and the "bullet benders" are *insert some absurd saying that is more extreme than "turned into swiss cheese"*

jaden101
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
How is Preston nowhere as good as Wesley?

His shootout scenes were nowhere near as impressive as Wesley's attack on the fraternity. Simple as that really.


I do love how reading over the thread you said that the plaza is fully lit and powered...And then later stated that Preston can switch the lights off.

We can presume that Wesley is the most skilled of the fraternity given that he was supposed to be better than his father and his father was the best in the fraternity...His father outsmarted and killed Mr X with an utterly ridiculous shot (which Wesley's equalled if not outmatched at the end of the film)

Lets look at what Mr X was capable of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P8sOmSW1G0

Look at the distance he jumps...Look at the accuracy of the shots...Yet we know that Wesley is supposed to be better than him.

Utterly ridiculous to even compare Zero or Preston to that level of skill.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by jaden101
His shootout scenes were nowhere near as impressive as Wesley's attack on the fraternity. Simple as that really.


I do love how reading over the thread you said that the plaza is fully lit and powered...And then later stated that Preston can switch the lights off.

We can presume that Wesley is the most skilled of the fraternity given that he was supposed to be better than his father and his father was the best in the fraternity...His father outsmarted and killed Mr X with an utterly ridiculous shot (which Wesley's equalled if not outmatched at the end of the film)

Lets look at what Mr X was capable of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P8sOmSW1G0

Look at the distance he jumps...Look at the accuracy of the shots...Yet we know that Wesley is supposed to be better than him.

Utterly ridiculous to even compare Zero or Preston to that level of skill. Yeah, its fully lit, Preston could easily hit a light switch. roll eyes (sarcastic)

That was X, Wesley was never shown jumping that far.

Why is Wesleys sniping of importance here?

jaden101
Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm not wrong. You're wrong. You're probably the smartest one here (no doubt, actually), you know that the arc is so "straight" that it does nothing but make a difference of fractions of an inch. Still point A and point B. For all intents and purposes, it is a straight line to Preston's "movement" area.That small fractions of an inch difference due to the traveling in an arch, will do nothing to Preston's movements. Like I said earlier, he isn't hiding behind pillars or walls: he is out in the open.

There is also a major problem, here: why is Preston, who is definitely the faster gun slinger, being out matched by a very slowly arch bullet? You do realize that by the time Wesley or Fox even gets off one bullet in an arch (which Preston will easily dodge (if you want to replace that with trajectory just to feel better about it, go ahead)), Preston will have fired many bullets. Instead of bending bullets, Wesley would block 1 bullet (cause we never see anyone block more than one bullet at a time) and get raped with the remaining bullets. Even IF Wesley and Fox get off two curved bullets, the arch is relatively straight to Preston's movement's when he dodges bullets/trajectories. It's not as though Preston is moving about 5 feet in microseconds, to dodge the incoming fire (or trajectories, since you guys love pretending there's a major difference)).

Reality: Both Fox and Wesley end up swiss cheese before they can get off any bullets, 9 out of 10 times. The other 1 time, one of them gets off one "bent" bullet, and Preston dodges it anyway because the small inches Preston moves to avoid that bullet make the "curved" trajectory "straight" for all intents and purposes.


If you don't believe it, watch the scene again where Wesley shoots around that friggin' hottie to hit the target behind her: in the mere inches Preston would move, there's no difference for Preston.

Show me where John even gets scathed by ANY gunfire, and I'll believe that bullet bending will make a negligible difference.

Again, how does this even matter that John can take both Wes and Fox on at the same time when Agent 0 can definitely do it by himself? Put them both together and the "bullet benders" are *insert some absurd saying that is more extreme than "turned into swiss cheese"*

You're wrong...You're just wrong...Preston doesn't dodge bullets. He just knows, based on the physics of bullets where they will likely come from with regards to where his enemy is. This doesn't apply to Gibson or Fox. They can literally make the bullet approach Preston from any angle.

Who's even talking about blocking bullets. Gibson or Fox wont have to...If they stand behind cover they cant get hit...But they can still hit their target from any angle...Preston has no counter for this.

I also fail to see how Preston is faster given that fraternity members can draw their guns and fire faster than standard assassins can lift their guns a fraction and fire (as shown by Mr X). Wesley was also able to attack and kill many fraternity members without them being able to get off a shot...And these are extremely highly trained assassins. Just because almost the entire scene is slowed down doesn't mean he's slow.





Are you completely forgetting the scene where Fox curves the bullet an entire 360 degrees ending with her shooting herself in the head?

Or the scene where Mr X fires in mid air and the bullet goes dead straight until the last split second before bending around the pillar and splattering the snipers brains all over the wall?




It's no use just repeating that he can...What did he do in the movies that is more impressive than shooting the wings off a fly with no training. What did he do that was more impressive than Wesley's attack on the fraternity?....What shot did he do that was more impressive than Wesley's at the end of the film?

The reality is that Zero did nothing in the Wolverine that comes close to those examples...Absolutely nothing.

jaden101
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi


Why is Wesleys sniping of importance here?
Because it's yet another example of his skill level and his feats being vastly more impressive than anything Zero did in the movies.

Zero did virtually nothing...He doesn't win simply because he's Agent Zero and has a reputation in the comics for being the best shooter going.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by jaden101
Because it's yet another example of his skill level and his feats being vastly more impressive than anything Zero did in the movies.

Zero did virtually nothing...He doesn't win simply because he's Agent Zero and has a reputation in the comics for being the best shooter going.
Zero is faster, more agile, at least as good of a shot (better IMO), what more do you want?

jaden101
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Zero is faster, more agile, at least as good of a shot (better IMO), what more do you want?

He can draw his weapon faster...That's about it.

As for him being more agile...He kills a few guys (in an extremely similar way to Wesley jumping through the window and killing guys to the side of him)...Jumps over a fence and shoots a few more...And that's it.

As for anything else he did...I've already mentioned them...Shoots Wolverine in the head from across the room...Shoots a cigar out of Wolverine's mouth...misses a sniper shot...And then dies in a burning helicopter...

Rogue Jedi
Ah well, I guess we're gonna agree to disagree on this.

jaden101
True...

Alpha Centauri
I love how DDM won't reply to me.

Bckaw.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
What good would bullet bending do when the bullet benders have clear line of sight to their target?

Besides being the only way to get around the man's technique?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Wesley knows about Gun kata, he isn't trained in it. He knows what Preston can do, that doesn't mean he will be able to judge where Preston will be. Moot point, because as I stated earlier, rapid fire is something the bullet benders are never shown blocking with their bullets. Preston shoots at pretty much full automatic speed, his guns even have a full auto setting.

He knows all about it, you said they know all about each other, right? So he'll know what signals his stance is giving Preston.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
DDM showing up has nothing to do with it, you gotta get off this thing about he and I being an internet tag team. I was watching Zero on my laptop right before I posted that, and I realized "Shit, dude could solo the bullet benders." Simple as that.

Call me a shoplifter cos I ain't buying it.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Here's what happened:

I started the thread with the mindset that it is an even matchup.

The more I thought about it, afetr discussing it with others here, and watching Zero in action some more, I decided that he could solo IMO.

Some more? The man has about two noteworthy scenes. If you've seen 'em once, you've seen 'em enough.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Tell me something.....Fox and Gibson are sweeping the building looking for Preston and Zero. Zero emerges and starts flipping around like Yoda on steroids, firing as he goes, while Preston emerges firing full auto fire. You really think the bullet benders can deal with that? Please, quote a screen feat that proves they can. I recall none.

You're asking me to come up with a counter to your scenario?

Why can't the opposite happen? They're tracking each other, Wesley sees their reflection in a window or something, hears them around a corner.

You can't judge by scenarios you deem factual.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And for the record, I see no one else complaining about this thread. See, that's YOUR problem, you feel the need step in and flex your E pecs (Insert insane Joker laugh here), declare yourself forum lord, and dictate how you want things to be. Don't like my threads? Why post in them? Why the drama? If you don't like the way I do things here, two options:

Place me on ignore.

Report me.

I'm not causing any drama, you're being overly dramatic. I had NO issue with this thread, at all. Then you went; "Oh! Just watched the movies. Yep, definitely decided now.".

If it was as easy as watching the movies, why did you even create the thread? I thought it was one of your better ones until that point. On the contrary to what you claim, I thought it was a good thread.

Also, I'll get off the You/DDM thing if you stop saying "You claim yourself forum lord.", because you've been doing that for a lot longer with zero evidence.

-AC

Placidity
Just watched Wanted again because of this thread lol.

Wesley/Fox takes this easily. They can do everything they Zero/Preston plus more.

Ms.Marvel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S-7OdAc3ws

yep. ermm

wanted was such a stupid movie.

Rogue Jedi
edit

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I love how DDM won't reply to me.

Bckaw. He's got alot on his plate right now, he'll respond in time.



Point. But the fact remains that the bullet still leaves and arrives in the same place as if you or I fired the gun. The curving part will not affect Preston a bit.





"General knowledge."



K, Winona.



Yes, and those scenes are a classic example of quality over quantity.



The bullet benders are hunting Preston and Zero, dude.



Lemme ask you this. Lets say I knew alot about European football, as you do. So we're discussing who is the best goalie, and you have one dude in mind. Then, after talking to me and me ptiching another guy, you see that I'm right, and you agree with me. What's that make you?

Rogue Jedi
BTW, people, still waiting for an answer to how the bullet benders deal with Prestons full auto fire.

Ms.Marvel
the same way they deal with everyone else who uses automatic guns? an automatic pistol isnt any more deadly than assault rifle... which gibson has dealt with before

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
He's got alot on his plate right now, he'll respond in time.

1) Not so much that he can't reply to Jaden.

2) It was a joke.

3) He can speak for himself.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Point. But the fact remains that the bullet still leaves and arrives in the same place as if you or I fired the gun. The curving part will not affect Preston a bit.

Obviously oblivious to my point, so I'll move on.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
"General knowledge."

General knowledge of gun kata is all you need.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Yes, and those scenes are a classic example of quality over quantity.

Again, way to miss what I actually said.

His scenes are not religious text. They don't need re-evaluating.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
The bullet benders are hunting Preston and Zero, dude.

Ok, so where are Preston and Zero?

How can he rapid fire if they're in one spot, being hunted?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Lemme ask you this. Lets say I knew alot about European football, as you do. So we're discussing who is the best goalie, and you have one dude in mind. Then, after talking to me and me ptiching another guy, you see that I'm right, and you agree with me. What's that make you?

A dreamer, because that would never happen. Not because of the sport, but ever.

I don't go into debates not knowing as much as I need to know. I only enter when I possess enough knowledge of the subject at hand to already have a well-formed, solid and established opinion backed up by facts if they're available. You go into a thread, or start one, with an idea and then apparently don't consider the obvious.

You establish and re-establish newly held or previously held opinions depending on what people say, or despite fact.

As for your above post, that's what I don't get about you. It's honestly nothing personal. I'm sure you're a nice guy and everything, and I'm sure I've said that you're way more tolerable outside of the forum (PMs etc) than you are on them, it's just a legitimate curiosity I have.

You come to one conclusion, then another. Each time you honestly act like everybody has to get their shit together and prove you wrong now that you've so easily decided who'd win.

Why don't you just think of all this before making the thread? The thing is, I'm not assaulting you. I'm just raising a civil opinion, because it comes up a lot. If you don't wanna change how you do things, don't. I'm just asking why.

You're now acting like Preston's rapid fire is the beginning and end of this thread. Now, you KNEW for a fact he had that capability. If THAT is a game-ender, why the thread?

Now, instead of taking this as a jugular assault...you could just realise I'm asking questions with basis and answer them or choose not to. Just don't act like I'm coming in here ruining shit.

I'm just asking questions.

-AC

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
the same way they deal with everyone else who uses automatic guns? an automatic pistol isnt any more deadly than assault rifle... which gibson has dealt with before Yeah, twice. First time he hid in a dump truck. Second time he got shot.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


1) Not so much that he can't reply to Jaden.

2) It was a joke.

3) He can speak for himself.

OMG that was really a joke?

No, I get your point, that Wesley will curve his bullets to get around Prestons gun kata.

Really now. The clerics Preston pwned had knowledge AND training in gun kata.



Insert Wesley in Zero's place in the scene in Africa.



Where? Probably devising a trap for the bullet benders.

Lie in wait, out of the bullet benders sight, then open up on them. I don;t see why this is such a foreign concept to you.



Let me revise. Not me, but someone who KNOWS European football.

Nah, I enter a thread with an opinion, I genuinely listen to the points of others, and when convinced I am wrong, I admit it. See, thats your problem, you have this thing where you always have to be right. I dont have that.

See what I just said.

Nah, I'm an *******. Thing is, I'm not your kind of *******.

Third time now, read three quotes up.

Read the quote below my sig.

No, I believe Zero's agility and speed is the end, not the auto fire.

Why the thread? To dicsuss it with others, to give them the chance to convince me.

An attack? I take nothing you say as an attack, if I came across as such, then you assumed wrong.

Rogue Jedi
Prediction....."Wesley and Fox stomp." Mark my word.

Rogue Jedi
This scene:

KZ3nS7T1e0M

Place Wesley in Preston's shoes. Does Wesley survive?

And this scene, same thing:

euUnmkum7Hg

And this scene, this pretty much is the same as Wesley taking on the fraternity in the end.

Ti5XWJBA31A

Alpha Centauri
Wesley isn't cannon fodder, nor is he fighting many men at close range.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
OMG that was really a joke?

No, I get your point, that Wesley will curve his bullets to get around Prestons gun kata.

Really now. The clerics Preston pwned had knowledge AND training in gun kata.

1. I made a chicken sound. How did you take it seriously?

2. Well done.

3. Yeah? Like who? The person he fought in a swordfight or the meaningless cannon fodder with machine guns? The one person with massively extensive knowledge of it was "Father", and Preston couldn't hit him.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Insert Wesley in Zero's place in the scene in Africa.

Yeah, what's to say he couldn't do it?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Where? Probably devising a trap for the bullet benders.

Ok, based on what? What if it doesn't work?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Lie in wait, out of the bullet benders sight, then open up on them. I don;t see why this is such a foreign concept to you.

It's not, it's just the only scenario you're accepting. Despite the fact that if that's your path, you should have known it from the start.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Let me revise. Not me, but someone who KNOWS European football.

Same.

Go read the thread. There's no losses on my record in that thread. I know my shit.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Nah, I enter a thread with an opinion, I genuinely listen to the points of others, and when convinced I am wrong, I admit it. See, thats your problem, you have this thing where you always have to be right. I dont have that.

Again with the quotes I've never said.

I am right if I'm right. I happen to be right almost all the time where facts are available because I don't enter threads without knowing my shit. If it's not objective, I can't be right or wrong.

The thing is, you just nailed it. When YOU are convinced you're wrong. I've seen people lob facts, logic and everything else at you for you to still shrug it off. The Sideswipe thread legendarily depicts this.

"I wasn't convinced.", exactly.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
See what I just said.

Nah, I'm an *******. Thing is, I'm not your kind of *******.

Third time now, read three quotes up.

Read mine.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Read the quote below my sig.

Oh, I agree. You just make these threads. You haven't got the foggiest idea how to react when in them.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No, I believe Zero's agility and speed is the end, not the auto fire.

Why the thread? To dicsuss it with others, to give them the chance to convince me.

Why is it always on others to convince you, especially when you're the only one who can convince yourself? Mostly.

That's what I don't get. You sit there with this matter-of-fact scenario and a notorious dislike for fact, then act like everyone else has to prove you wrong.

Why is it never to discuss who'd win? Come in with an established opinion, unlike a dog chasing cars, and THEN see if we can convince you. It doesn't help if we come to you with our views and you still haven't even decided what yours are yet.

You can't say you're like a dog chasing cars, unaware of what you'd do if you caught one, then act like you have an opinion already when you create this thread. The two don't work.

-AC

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Wesley isn't cannon fodder, nor is he fighting many men at close range.



1. I made a chicken sound. How did you take it seriously?

2. Well done.

3. Yeah? Like who? The person he fought in a swordfight or the meaningless cannon fodder with machine guns? The one person with massively extensive knowledge of it was "Father", and Preston couldn't hit him. Bckaw sounds more like a dying turkey gobble.

They were clerics, man, not cannon fodder.



Zero's speed and agility was what won that fight, speed and agility Wesley does not possess.



Hey, it might not work, then again it might work.


No, it's a likely scenario. Not an inevitable one.


I'd wager there are at least a few people in the world more knowledgeable than you.



The SS thread was a perfect example of zero objectivity.

Woof.

jaden101
Why does this idiotic point keep getting brought up as a defence for Preston?

Think about it. Preston believes and all his training is based on bullets travelling in rought a straight line from shooter to target...So he avoid the bullets by being either slightly to the left or the right of what he believes their known trajectories to be.

Now...If the bullet benders can change the trajectories of that bullet then it stands to reason that Preston's knowledge of how to avoid the bullets becomes totally irrelevant because it doesn't apply to bullets than can come from a 90 degree angle relative to the shooter. Preston would try and avoid the bullets as per his Gun Kata training and he was simply move in the same plain as the bullets trajectory.

It would be no different to you or I trying to avoid a bullet by walking straight towards it or away from it. We're still going to get shot.

And even if he knows about Gibson and Fox's ability to bend bullets there's nothing he can do about it because it was never part of his traning and the bullets can effectively come from any angle meaning they are not statistically predictable.



So what was quality about them that makes them more impressive than what Gibson does?...I mean seriously? Because I saw nothing that came close to matching the skills shown in Wanted.



The easiest scenario would be that Gibson would snipe them from half the city away.



By "people" you mean you.

And yeah...Gibson and Fox stay behind and shoot from cover using bullet bending or that weird gun that Fox has than can look around corners. (never understood why she needed that if she could shoot around corners anyway)



By his showing in the fraternity he'd fair just as well. In fact some of their moves were pretty much identical (the shooting with both hands from infront of themselves then sweeping around both sides killing enemies on either side without looking).

Difference is that Gibson killed a lot more and a lot better trained enemies than Zero did.


This is the scripting you were trying to avoid...Did they lay traps for opponents in their films?

At least when I used the example of Wesley sniping them from across the city that this was something he actually did in the film. (oddly enough...setting a trap).



Would Wesley even stand still in the middle of the floor?...Of course not. And judging by the fact that the "rebels" apparently have worse aims than imperial stormtroopers then I'd say yes.

The 2nd scene was easily the gayest fight scene in Equilibrium. The only way Gibson would be in the same scenario is if he was a grammaton cleric because that'd be the only way the police/army team would surround him without reacting. So it's a rather silly point to make.

The 3rd scene...Yeah...Pretty similar...Except with Gibson's scene being far more impressive in that he continually stayed armed by using his enemies weapons that he snatches out of the air after killing his enemies and before the guns even hit the ground. He also kills more enemies. He also wouldn't be in that situation unless he was a Cleric...which would mean not only could he bend bullets but he'd be trained in Gun Kata... wink

Rogue Jedi
I went back on what I said earlier Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Ah well, I guess we're gonna agree to disagree on this.

Apologies.

I think we can all agree on one thing.....Fox is HOT.

Rogue Jedi
OK, I'll add this, then agree to disagree haermm

Preston, unarmed, surrounded by armed Clerics:

6hL-i6R5w3g

Wesley Gibson, AMRED, surrounded by Bullet benders:

eYurmJY6xAQ&feature=related



I think it's self explainatory.

Placidity
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
OK, I'll add this, then agree to disagree haermm

Preston, unarmed, surrounded by armed Clerics:

6hL-i6R5w3g

Wesley Gibson, AMRED, surrounded by Bullet benders:

eYurmJY6xAQ&feature=related



I think it's self explainatory.

Big difference.

Preston's guard's guns were not trained on him. Also, they all thought he was unarmed, and hence would not have been as alert if they knew he had weapons on him.

And he was armed, so I dunno what thats about.

That black guy is freaking hilarious. By his attitude, casualness and smirk, I would've thought he would've proven to be a challenge. Then he gets cut down in like a few moves hahaha

Rogue Jedi
One more thing, then I'm done ninja

Gibson's final fight scene:

LcjjsksFrbI


I count 28 men he kills, then the butcher, that makes 29.





And the vid I just posted:

6hL-i6R5w3g


If my count is correct, Preston kills 43 Clerics, then the black Cleric, then the voice of father. 45 kills.



45......29.......yeah.....

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Placidity
Big difference.

Preston's guard's guns were not trained on him. Also, they all thought he was unarmed, and hence would not have been as alert if they knew he had weapons on him.

And he was armed, so I dunno what thats about.

That black guy is freaking hilarious. By his attitude, casualness and smirk, I would've thought he would've proven to be a challenge. Then he gets cut down in like a few moves hahaha

I meant in the office, he was surrounded by sword wielding clerics, he was unarmed. And the guards in the hall, they saw his guns, they heard the shots, they were alert, he is just that damn good.


And LOL at that black guy, he got pwned hard haermm Not as hard as the repairman.

jaden101
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I went back on what I said earlier

Apologies.

I think we can all agree on one thing.....Fox is HOT.

In the words of Churchill the Dog...Oooohhhh YES.


As for the number of clerics...Well...Only the guys in the last room are clerics...The rest as just armed police.

There's 6 in the 1st room...13 in the corridor which then follows another 2 groups of 4 and 9 in the final room including the father....

so that's 36...only 9 of which are highly trained. The rest are about as effective as the idiot cops earlier in the movie that seemed to take about 10 minutes to figure out he was a sense offender AFTER he'd already told the other sense offenders to "GO".

I counted 40 for Wesley up until the point he reaches the stairs...And that was before the knife fight.

The manner in which he did it was also vastly more impressive. The majority of the shootout he did using not even semi auto pistols.

As for the video of the confrontation with the fraternity and Sloan...Way to prove a point. Fox's 1 shot in that scene means she could easily take out Zero or Preston from practically anywhere.

Rogue Jedi
I counted the number of people being shot, I counted twice, your count is off. yes

Yeah, and the fraternity assassins were totally expecting her to do that roll eyes (sarcastic)

jaden101
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I counted the number of people being shot, I counted twice, your count is off. yes



I've never been off about anything in this thread yet.




It's got nothing to do with expectation...She can literally bend a bullet a full 360 degrees....Meaning she can hit Preston and Zero from anywhere. They can only hit her from line of sight...

DDM argued that the bullet bending only worked by changing the trajectory slightly (and used the example of Wesley bending his 1st shot around Fox) despite the fact that both Fox's example, Mr X's rooftop example and many others in the film show that bullets can be bent to a far greater degree (a full 360 degrees as it happens)

I love how many of my points from the last 2 days have been completely ignored though.

Like you arguing that Zero is the best shot despite me asking what he's done that matches shooting the wings off the flies.

Or for that matter shooting bullets of the air which you seem so obsessed with before.

Rogue Jedi
You know, AC raised a good point earlier. They have knowledge of each other, right? Well, it wouldn't be that hard for Preston to react accordingly knowing that their bullets curve. After all, gun kata is based on bullet trajectory and the location of an opponent, right? If Preston knows they can curve their bullets, all he has to do is change where he locates himself. Makes sense to me.

jaden101
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You know, AC raised a good point earlier. They have knowledge of each other, right? Well, it wouldn't be that hard for Preston to react accordingly knowing that their bullets curve. After all, gun kata is based on bullet trajectory and the location of an opponent, right? If Preston knows they can curve their bullets, all he has to do is change where he locates himself. Makes sense to me.

You're not understanding the issue. Because Fox can curve a bullet entirely around to it's origin point then it can literally approach Preston from any direction. That goes against everything Gun Kata is based upon which is statistically predictable trajectories. If you can make a bullet approach from any angle then it makes them completely statistically unpredictable.

So again. It's not enough to know they can curve bullets. He would have to know exactly which direction the bullet's going to approach him from. He simply can't.

Besides...Gun Kata is based on standard shooting in a straight line from point A to point B.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by jaden101
You're not understanding the issue. Because Fox can curve a bullet entirely around to it's origin point then it can literally approach Preston from any direction. That goes against everything Gun Kata is based upon which is statistically predictable trajectories. If you can make a bullet approach from any angle then it makes them completely statistically unpredictable.

So again. It's not enough to know they can curve bullets. He would have to know exactly which direction the bullet's going to approach him from. He simply can't.

Besides...Gun Kata is based on standard shooting in a straight line from point A to point B. But isn't point A and B the same, regardless of bullet curving or not?

jaden101
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
But isn't point A and B the same, regardless of bullet curving or not?

Think about it...If I shoot at you and you are trained in Gun Kata...Your training means you know that you either need to move to the left or the right to be out of the bullet's trajectory.

Now regardless of where you and I are standing. If I can make that bullet approach you from any angle in a full 360 degrees then how would you know which way to move to avoid the trajectory?

The start point and end point of the bullet are irrelevant. It's angle which it approaches the target that matters.

Now if we have basic knowledge of each other then I would know that in order to avoid a typical shot then you would move either left or right because this is what you were trained to do. I could compensate for it. Even if you knew I could curve bullets you would have no idea which way to move to get out of the way and would be relying on blind luck and hope that the direction you chose to move wasn't on the same plane as the bullet's trajectory.

Rogue Jedi
Preston moved alot more than left and right.

jaden101
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Preston moved alot more than left and right.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

The point is he has absolutely no way to predict the trajectory of a curved shot that can come from any angle. He can't compensate for it. His Gun Kata wasn't designed with it in mind therefor his training in Gun Kata is useless. The entire thing was based on statistically predictable trajectories. If a bullet can come from a single point and hit it's target from any angle then it's 100% completely unpredictable.

Even if he did know about curved bullet trajectories, none of his moves that his Gun Kata training would take it into consideration therefor all his weird body contortions and odd firing stances would be completely pointless and useless.

Rogue Jedi
I'm gonna make this REAL simple....This is Preston and Wesley facing off. Wesley at point A, Preston at point B:

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/jedibeastie2/pw1POINTA1.jpg

Now, given Wesley's ability to curve bullets, the bullets from his guns are gonna take one of two flight paths. This one:

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/jedibeastie2/pw3.jpg

Or this one:

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/jedibeastie2/pw4.jpg

If Preston is still at point B, then yeah, he is killed. But you know as well as I do that Preston is never in the same place, he is always moving, always flipping around, always rolling or diving forwards and backwards.

With me so far?

Rogue Jedi
K. Now, Preston is gonna be on the move, he isn't gonna stand there and just blast away. He is gonna go from point B to C:

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/jedibeastie2/pwa.jpg

From point C to D:

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/jedibeastie2/pwb.jpg



Point D to E:

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/jedibeastie2/pwc.jpg

Point E to F:

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/jedibeastie2/pwaa.jpg

Point F to G:

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/jedibeastie2/pwab.jpg


Doing something like this:

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/jedibeastie2/pwabABC.jpg

Rogue Jedi
And he will be blasting away the entire time with full auto fire. He is agile as hell, he'll not be at point B when the bullet arrives.


Tell me you're getting this.

Rogue Jedi
Sorry I had to post the pics in more than one post, KMC wouldn't let me post them all at once.

Point is that Preston will be on the move at all times, you know, like he was in Equilibrium. He won't stand there at point B and allow Wesley to cap him. So the trajectories are all thrown off, so what? Preston knows this beforehand. He will know to be on the move at all times, and he is a deadeye shot. That, in addition to his auto fire, and Wesley is done.

I know, it's all bullshit, full of holes, blah blah yada yada, go ahead and ignore the obvious.

Placidity
Stanard bullet curve shot.

http://i45.tinypic.com/kajths.jpg


Bullet shot straight which curves until close to target.

http://i50.tinypic.com/14tyj5v.jpg


Cross shooting off two bullets, with different trajectories which would hit its target if it moved left/right or diagonally forward left/right.

http://i45.tinypic.com/141k0ph.jpg

Rogue Jedi
And? The start point and end point of the bullet remains the same. By moving around at breakneck speeds as Preston does, he will avoid getting hit. Once the bullet leaves the gun, Wesley has no control over it. Wesley and Fox can curve all day and all night, but Zero and Preston, with their athleticism/agility/speed, will never be where Preston/Fox were aiming.

Placidity
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And? The start point and end point of the bullet remains the same. By moving around at breakneck speeds as Preston does, he will avoid getting hit. Once the bullet leaves the gun, Wesley has no control over it. Wesley and Fox can curve all day and all night, but Zero and Preston, with their athleticism/agility/speed, will never be where Preston/Fox were aiming.

If you actually looked at the diagram, even if they moved left or right, they'd still get hit.

And no, neither of them have super speed. "Break-neck speeds"...pluh-eaze.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Placidity
If you actually looked at the diagram, even if they moved left or right, they'd still get hit.

And no, neither of them have super speed. "Break-neck speeds"...pluh-eaze. See, thats the thing, it's more than just left and right, they will be all over the place. Preston and Zero will be leaping and twisting, they will never be hit. You telling me that Fox/Gibson can WILL their bullets to alter it's path AFTER it leaves their gun? haermm

And yeah, compared to Fox/Gibson, they DO have breakneck speeds, especially Zero.

What dont you get? The bullet benders fire their guns, the bullet leaves the barrel, once that happens, it's out of their hands. If their desired target is no longer in the same place, the bullet hits nothing. At that point, rapid fire (which they cannot block) does them in.

Placidity
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
See, thats the thing, it's more than just left and right, they will be all over the place. Preston and Zero will be leaping and twisting, they will never be hit.

On the contrary, they will be. Wesley shoots bullets out of the air, do you think he isn't going to hit targets as large as Zero and Preston? How will they know where to move? Leaping is a bad idea, once in the air, Zero's trajectory will be predictable and he will get hit easily.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You telling me that Fox/Gibson can WILL their bullets to alter it's path AFTER it leaves their gun? haermm


Never said such a thing.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi

And yeah, compared to Fox/Gibson, they DO have breakneck speeds, especially Zero.


Nope. Zero moves at human speeds.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi

What dont you get? The bullet benders fire their guns, the bullet leaves the barrel, once that happens, it's out of their hands. If their desired target is no longer in the same place, the bullet hits nothing. At that point, rapid fire (which they cannot block) does them in.

No. What don't you get? In the diagrams, Preston is no longer in the same spot yet he could still get hit, it depends on whether he knows where to move, which he doesn't.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Placidity
On the contrary, they will be. Wesley shoots bullets out of the air, do you think he isn't going to hit targets as large as Zero and Preston? How will they know where to move? Leaping is a bad idea, once in the air, Zero's trajectory will be predictable and he will get hit easily. See, what you are doing now is praising Fox and Gibson as uber marksmen and totally ignoring Preston and Zero's marksmanship.

Wesley shoots bullets out of the air because he is a bullet bender himself, he knows the flight path of the incoming bullet and where to intersect it. There's no way in hell he can predict where Preston and Zero will be.



You're kinda implying it.



Watch Origins again, he most certainly does not.



Doesn't matter if he knows WHERE to move to, point is that he will be always on the move, auto firing the whole time, he is far more agile/athletic than Fox/Gibson could ever hope to be. Hell, the fat ass butcher managed to avoid getting shot by Wesley for a while, if he can, Preston/Zero can do it in spades.



Hey, tell me,when did Fox and Gibson ever hit a target that can move around like Preston and Zero? Hmm, that would be......never. Their targets were mostly stationary, MAYBE moving a SMALL bit.

Placidity
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
See, what you are doing now is praising Fox and Gibson as uber marksmen and totally ignoring Preston and Zero's marksmanship.


Who cares? Fox and Gibson's marksmanship feats leaves Preston and Zero in the dust.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi

Wesley shoots bullets out of the air because he is a bullet bender himself, he knows the flight path of the incoming bullet and where to intersect it. There's no way in hell he can predict where Preston and Zero will be.


Wrong. It's because he can actually see the bullet. Hence why he can shoot the wings off a fly. And yes, he can predict where bullets are going to be before it is actually fired. He knows gun kata too.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi

You're kinda implying it.


No, no I'm not that would be stupid.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi

Watch Origins again, he most certainly does not.


I've seen it a few times. You want to say he can do something, the onus is on you to prove it.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi


Doesn't matter if he knows WHERE to move to, point is that he will be always on the move, auto firing the whole time, he is far more agile/athletic than Fox/Gibson could ever hope to be.

Actually it does matter where he moves. You keep ignoring this - theres a chance he might actually move into the trajectory of the bullet.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Hell, the fat ass butcher managed to avoid getting shot by Wesley for a while, if he can, Preston/Zero can do it in spades.
The butcher was fast enough to deflect bullets with his knives. Are they?

Placidity
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi

Hey, tell me,when did Fox and Gibson ever hit a target that can move around like Preston and Zero? Hmm, that would be......never. Their targets were mostly stationary, MAYBE moving a SMALL bit.

Move around like Preston and Zero? What is that supposed to imply?

Zero has good leaping ability - he leaps high and far, he does not move around like Yoda or Spider-man. He also does not have super speed. He also only jumps when he needs to - like jumping over a fence, or to quickly get into the helicopter.

Preston just side steps.

As for your question, how about shooting the wings off several flies?

Answer the question - which is harder to shoot?

A. The wings of a moving fly.

B. Someone who sidesteps Or Someone who jumps around.

jaden101
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Sorry I had to post the pics in more than one post, KMC wouldn't let me post them all at once.

Point is that Preston will be on the move at all times, you know, like he was in Equilibrium. He won't stand there at point B and allow Wesley to cap him. So the trajectories are all thrown off, so what? Preston knows this beforehand. He will know to be on the move at all times, and he is a deadeye shot. That, in addition to his auto fire, and Wesley is done.

I know, it's all bullshit, full of holes, blah blah yada yada, go ahead and ignore the obvious.

You mean like the fact that Wesley isn't an idiot and won't know to compensate for where the likely point Preston will move to given that he knows about Preston's Gun Kata.

Gun Kata is based on positioning the body to avoid statistically predictable trajectories of bullets...I really don't know what's so difficult to understand in the fact that if a bullet can approach a target from any angle completely independantly from the position of the shooter then it is 100% completely unpredictable.




Can't say I seen any examples of breakneck speed that actually meant Preston was able to see and deliberately avoid a bullet.




Don't try and patronise me. You're clearly the one with the mental deficiency here.



Except that is what all sharpshooters do when they are firing on a moving target. Neither Preston or Zero move at superhuman speeds. Gibson and Fox can compensate based on your thread stipulation of having knowledge about their opponents. Neither Preston or Zero can compensate for bullets which can come at them from any angle. It's impossible to do so unless they can physically see the bullet and react to it. This is not what Gun Kata is about and we see no examples of Zero doing it either.




The only thing he does which is faster than a human reaction is shoot the cigar out of Wolverine's mouth and even then it's not that much faster. He certainly can't move his body around an open space any faster than a normal human.




I take it you must be completely forgetting about the train assasination scene.

The only thing that Preston does that is athletic is in the corridor fight scene when he flips around back on to his feet. The rest, for the most part, is just him standing in one spot either firing on using his sword.




Again, there's the statement about Gun Kata from the movies. Note the line "statistically traditional trajectories of return fire"

Is there anything traditional about curved bullet trajectories?...No. Thus rendering it nigh on useless. Even more so when Gun Kata is based on positions rather than pure movement.

Oddly enough Gibson's raid on the fraternity showed him to be constantly on the move at a faster rate and aiming more accurately than Preston as most of his kills were straight between the eyes. Preston, on the other hand, misses with most of his shots. Shown by the fact that there are many bullet holes in the walls surrounding the guards he kills.



Just as difficult to hit a stationary target while the shooter is moving. Doing it from a train travelling at high speed to a target a large distance away through a window and being unable to see the target at the time with a pistol.

And again...Being able to shoot bullets out of the air or the wings off moving flies means I think they'd easily be able to hit Preston and Zero.

As for the Butcher...Placidity said it all. Cutting bullets out of the air with his knives is as impressive as it gets.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Placidity
Stanard bullet curve shot.

http://i45.tinypic.com/kajths.jpg


Bullet shot straight which curves until close to target.

http://i50.tinypic.com/14tyj5v.jpg


Cross shooting off two bullets, with different trajectories which would hit its target if it moved left/right or diagonally forward left/right.

http://i45.tinypic.com/141k0ph.jpg

lol


That's not how I envisioned it, in 3D space, at all. You forgot up, down, backwards, and forwards. You have him moving only in two, very linear, and uncharacteristic direction.

Also, the bullets wouldn't travel in a perfect circle and, in fact, it only happened once: fox shot a bullet at the end there that killed everyone.

All the other shots curve, more, at the beginning of the shot, and, as they should, as it travels, the shot becomes less curved, OR, vice versa.



Despite that fact that none of that could be done in the real world, with any kind of bullet.



Still doesn't change anything about the bullet. And, you're drawings are wrong, as well.

Not only does it incorrectly assume Preston is dodging any bullets, it also assumes that he will dodge right into the bullet's path when there's many many other locations that he could and would dodge into.


For some reason, an entire room of 10 or more men, armed with fully automatics, missed him completely. This is dealing with many more trajectories, at once, with multiple bullets from each trajectory.

This is on top of him not only dodging them, but not even getting nicked by them. Meaning, he's dodging them by a comfortable margin.

Now, assuming your drawing above (which is not a perfect ellipsoid, it actually elongates at the beginning or end, in the movie, as it should, except for one shot by Fox at the end), just moving in the same exact direction he would use to avoid the bullet, would still work. This, however, incorrectly assumes that they would even get a curved shot off. BTW, their curved shot is a one shot deal (I know they can do it multiple times, but they literally don't have the time to set themselves for a second shot) that takes them longer to pull off than a regular shot. They would end up with 3 bullets, each, in the chest, before the got done firing. Assuming that Preston, illogically, would stop right into the almost straight curve (cause they are curving over a long distance, so the line is virtually straight in the relatively small space the Preston is moving in), that still results in mutally assured destruction, with Zero surviving, meaning, Preston Zero still win.



That of course assumes a false premise that they would even be able to get that shot off.


Here's a much better depiction of what actually would happen:

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z238/dadudemon/untitled.jpg

Here's an image with an overly exaggerated curve, as it would travel. The blue one is obviously the straight shot. As I said, mere inches of a difference that would be insignificant. Preston would move out of that bullet's way (or trajectory if you guys are still hung up on that), but moving every place that would be out of the way of the regular bullet's path. That's like.....a HUGE amount of choices. He can still move in any direction, cause, guess what? The curved bullet only makes the difference of a 2 or 3 inches, at the back, of the trajectory. If he is avoiding the trajecotry, instead of the impact point, that's even better.

We know for a fact that Preston is dodging with inches of clearance: unless any of you can find an scene of Preston's clothes "flapping" or his hair flapping from the bullets whizzing by? lol. You can't. Cause he dodges with plenty of room to spare.


So, in the off-hand chance that he would uncharacteristically dodge out of the typical trajectory that we would expect, right into the curved path, which only varies, at the back, by 2 or 3 inches (or less, depending on how far away he is from Wes or Fox), they are still dead.




Let's keep things real and not gimp other characters for the sake of beating RJ in an argument. (That's all I see here: gimping to win an argument against RJ.)



Why, for some magical reason, is preston only allowed to move into the bullets' paths when he would clearly dodge out of the way of many curved shots?



Also, why is Preston being gimped by everyone? Wes and Fox would both end up with multiple bullets through their chest or head before the would even finish their arm-swing for the bullet curve. On top of that, why would Wes and Fox use a curved bullet when Preston is right there in front of them, with a clear path? Isn't that also uncharacteristic of them? Why wouldn't Wes or Fox, you know....shoot one or two of the bullets out of the air before they end up dead? But, that would be too logical: assuming that they would try to save themselves instead of making a curved shot at someone right in front of them.


Send Preston into the Assasin compound and he clears each room out in a tenth the time it took Wes and co to clear them out. He wouldn't even need suicide rats. laughing

Why would we even need to add Agent Zero, here? laughing


Originally posted by jaden101
Why does this idiotic point keep getting brought up as a defence for Preston?

Because it's not idiotic. See the image I drew, that has an exaggerated path.

Let's be clear: the only idiotic thing about this is assuming that the curved path makes any difference at all.

jaden101
HE DOESN'T DODGE BULLETS

He uses his Gun Kata training to predict likely paths of bullets and stays out of their paths. If a bullet can come from any angle then he has no way to know which path the bullet will take therefor he can't with 100% certainty avoid them. It would be pure luck.



What's your point? All I see is the fact that they can make the bullet curve a large amount at the start and then go relatively straight (extremely useful if Fox and Gibson are behind cover) or go relatively straight and curve more at the end (extremely useful if Preston or Zero are behind cover)





Gun Kata is based on positions that combine maximum kill zone with minimum risk of being hit by return fire based on STRAIGHT TRAJECTORIES....So how is any of his training applicable to curved trajectories?...



It's got nothing to do with us being "hung up" on it. Gun Kata is actually described in Equilibrium as being based on bullet trajectories.



His entire training is based on straight...

You know what...I'm just repeating myself. It's getting boring. I bring up points that just get ignored because there's no answer to them. Instead I just hear the same old "Preston would dodge bullets" despite the fact that Gun Kata has nothing to do with dodging bullets.

I hear the same old "Zero is uber and he'd pwn" despite the fact that he does nothing in the movie that comes close to matching the feats in Wanted...Clearly the idea that he'd win is based on the reputation from the comics which have jack shit to do with this forum.








That's the quote regarding Gun Kata. So tell me...How does it apply to bullets with completely unpredictable and completely untraditional trajectories?

I still see the same arguments that Preston are Zero are better aims yet no answer to the fact that they did nothing in the film that matched shooting the wings off of moving flies while having no training. No answer to the fact that most of Wesley's kill are head shots through between the eyes. No feats from Preston or Zero that match shooting bullets out the air or killing some with a head shot while firing from a moving train and curving the bullet through a window without even being able to see the target.

Rogue Jedi
"Zero is uber and he'd pwn"

dadudemon
Originally posted by jaden101
HE DOESN'T DODGE BULLETS
I can post in bigger text. Watch:

HE DODGES BULLETS ALL THE TIME! THE PROBABILITIES ARE BASED ON WHERE THE BULLETS WILL BE BASED ON HIS PERSON AND WHERE HE SHOULD BE IN 3D SPACE, RELATIVE TO WHERE THOSE BULLETS WILL BE WHEN THEY PASS HIS LOCATION! GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S BULLETS, NOT TRAJECTORIES. IF HE DODGED TRAJECTORIES, THEN HE WOULD GET SHOT UP! HE HAS TO DODGE THE MOST PROBABLE LOCATION THE BULLET WILL BE AS HIS CROSSES HIS AREA. LET'S PRETEND WE CAN BE PEDANTIC ABOUT IT AND SAY IT'S A TRAJECTORY WHEN IT'S REALLY A WORD GAME THAT CHANGES NOTHING OF WHAT I'VE STATED.



Nothing else you posted is relevant or should even be addressed. It's simply wrong. I've already shown you why it is. You should not post on this, again.


In other words, I win the thread. You've been pwned, hardcore.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
"Zero is uber and he'd pwn"

dadudemon
Even if we remove the idea that Preston is dodging the most probable location the bullet will be, relative to his person, and pretend that the path...a.k.a. trajectory, has any relevance on a bending bullet, that still changes nothing of what I've stated, later, in my post. It's latching onto an idea or concept that doesn't make a difference.


My drawing even shows the path the bullets would take.


Preston still wins on speed and skill, alone.


He would make Wes and fox look like children, if it was a sword fight.

Rogue Jedi
Or even H2H.

Impediment
dadudemon, stop spamming the thread with unnecessarily huge text.

Jaden, you, too, also needn't provoke with large text.

This debate needs nothing more than standard font and text size.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Impediment
dadudemon, stop spamming the thread with unnecessarily huge text.

Jaden, you, too, also needn't provoke with large text.

This debate needs nothing more than standard font and text size.

I agree. Just showing Jaden how funny it was.

jaden101
Originally posted by dadudemon
I can post in bigger text. Watch:

HE DODGES BULLETS ALL THE TIME! THE PROBABILITIES ARE BASED ON WHERE THE BULLETS WILL BE BASED ON HIS PERSON AND WHERE HE SHOULD BE IN 3D SPACE, RELATIVE TO WHERE THOSE BULLETS WILL BE WHEN THEY PASS HIS LOCATION! GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S BULLETS, NOT TRAJECTORIES. IF HE DODGED TRAJECTORIES, THEN HE WOULD GET SHOT UP! HE HAS TO DODGE THE MOST PROBABLE LOCATION THE BULLET WILL BE AS HIS CROSSES HIS AREA. LET'S PRETEND WE CAN BE PEDANTIC ABOUT IT AND SAY IT'S A TRAJECTORY WHEN IT'S REALLY A WORD GAME THAT CHANGES NOTHING OF WHAT I'VE STATED.



Nothing else you posted is relevant or should even be addressed. It's simply wrong. I've already shown you why it is. You should not post on this, again.


In other words, I win the thread. You've been pwned, hardcore.

The film says it's the trajectories...I'm going with the film...

To quote Willy Wonka...YOU LOSE...YOU GET NOTHING...GOOD DAY SIR.

jaden101
Originally posted by Impediment
dadudemon, stop spamming the thread with unnecessarily huge text.

Jaden, you, too, also needn't provoke with large text.

This debate needs nothing more than standard font and text size.

To quote Arnie.

CHILL OUT...DICKWAD.

I jest, of course. stick out tongue

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
"Zero is uber and he'd pwn"

jaden101
You're not addressing it because you can't counter it. At least be honest.

The entire structure of the debates in the movie vs forum is based on what we actually see or are told in the movies. Equilibrium states that gun kata is based on bullet trajectories. You saying it isn't goes against the movie and so you are wrong.

My asking what feats does Preston or Zero exhibit that beat Wesley's shooting the wings off of flies for accuracy is entirely valid.

We'll take the 3 most directly comparable scenes from Zero and Wesley.

Whose sniping shot was more impressive?...Clearly Wesley's that killed Sloan.

Whose accuracy was more impressive...The completely untrained Wesley shooting the wings off of moving flies or shooting bullets out of mid air or Zero shooting a stationary cigar in Wolverine's mouth?...Clearly Wesley's feat.

Whose raid on the enemy was more impressive? Wesley at the fraternity or Zero on the militia compound?

Clearly Wesley...He killed far more opponents of a far higher standard.

What's more impressive?. Wesley killing the vast majority of his enemies in the raid on the fraternity with pistols and shooting most of them square between the eyes and continually proccuring by snatching them out of mid air after killing the people using them against him or Preston using fully auto pistols that he reloads using clips that he pre-positioned or had on his person...All the while missing a large portion of his shots. Or Zero killing a handful of militia after jumping over a fence.

See how it works?...Movie feats...That's what we go on...Not you making up some trajectory in your head and claiming that it doesn't curve all that much despite the fact that we clearly see in the movie that bullets can curve a full 360 degrees.

Alpha Centauri
I swear, I got warned for once telling a member that they shouldn't post in a thread.

Strange how he gets away with it.

-AC

Rogue Jedi
I say post and let post, but that's just me. Griffin beats Decepticons.

jaden101
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I say post and let post, but that's just me. Griffin beats Decepticons.

Who?...Peter?

Probably.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I swear, I got warned for once telling a member that they shouldn't post in a thread.

Strange how he gets away with it.

-AC


Whew, good thing I was talking about a specific subject on this topic, and not the thread itself.

Nice try, troll.

Reported for baiting.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by jaden101
Who?...Peter?

Probably. Stewie.

jaden101
Aaaahhh...That explains it.

Rogue Jedi
Well yeah, give him Dexters lab and he pwns all.

Rogue Jedi
Been thinking about this for some time.......Jaden/Placidity/Whoever else sided with the bullet benders, you guys are right. They would probably win this matchup.


Yes, this is me conceding. It only took a year, shut up.

Robtard
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Been thinking about this for some time.......Jaden/Placidity/Whoever else sided with the bullet benders, you guys are right. They would probably win this matchup.


Yes, this is me conceding. It only took a year, shut up.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=505676&highlight=preston+vs+wesley

dadudemon
Also, this:

Originally posted by dadudemon
The furthest we got was Placidity...indicating that a bent bullet ends up in a significantly different location than a straight line bullet. I showed, quite clearly, that it ends up in almost the same exact point. The first time Gibson fires a bent bullet: it curves right around Jolie and hits the target where he'd been shooting it straight on, to begin with. The trajectory change does little for Gibson. What's worse: it take a bit to pick his arm up and fire: Preston can literally clear a room of a dozen highly training people before one person can bring their gun up from their side and fire. Wesley, while most likely faster on the draw, will have no chance to fire one curved bullet. Even if he did, Preston still moves into any position that is safe, regardless, because of the little to no difference at all of were the bullet ends up by the time it reaches the target.


Also, Gibson was seen shooting a bullet right out of the air: but that was one bullet. He can't do shit against multiple bullets and he easily goes down.


The problem is: you have the two faster "gun" drawers on the same team. No matter how skilled at bending bullets the Fox/Gibson team is, that doesn't prevent the Preston/Zero team from killing them both before they can get even one bent bullet off.

Besides, bending the bullet does jack shit for a victory.


RJ, you never had your eyes opened: you always thought Zero/Gibson won and you still do.


Me thinks this is just a ploy to revive this thread rather than you actually admitting defeat.

Juk3n
Bending bullets means squat to people that are knowledgable of it, and /or expecting it from an opponent, especially to battle savvy characters like Preston and Zero. That said, Zero Soloes, too fast, too agile, with a return fire reaction and accuracy too great NOT to close the gap and pwn the Wanteds..

dadudemon
Originally posted by Juk3n
Bending bullets means squat to people that are knowledgable of it, and /or expecting it from an opponent, especially to battle savvy characters like Preston and Zero. That said, Zero Soloes, too fast, too agile, with a return fire reaction and accuracy too great NOT to close the gap and pwn the Wanteds..

That's largely my conclusion: Zero has the fastest draw out of all of them and can shoot off 2 bullets before all by Preston pull out their gun and fire one bullet.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Robtard
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=505676&highlight=preston+vs+wesley ?

Placidity
Originally posted by dadudemon
That's largely my conclusion: Zero has the fastest draw out of all of them and can shoot off 2 bullets before all by Preston pull out their gun and fire one bullet.

Actually they don't start off face to face.

Likely Zero/Preston will be looking for them when two bullet rounds a corner and enters their brains.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Placidity
Actually they don't start off face to face.

Likely Zero/Preston will be looking for them when two bullet rounds a corner and enters their brains.

They were never shown making that their first plan of attack. Gotta stick with what's in the movies.

0mega Spawn
Originally posted by dadudemon
They were never shown making that their first plan of attack. Gotta stick with what's in the movies. but they were shown curving bullets from a cover erm

dadudemon
Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
but they were shown curving bullets from a cover erm

So they start from cover (no), they are going to curve bullets first thing (which they never showed doing as a "first resort"wink, and are faster on the draw than both of the other peeps (not the case, at all)? erm

Also, Preston isn't a "cover" dude. He walks right out into the open and RAAAAAAPES. Having Preston in cover as the thread starts (not the case) is a gimp to try and get a win. This is the lengths people are resorting to do try and garner a win. erm

Placidity
Originally posted by dadudemon
faster on the draw than both of the other peeps (not the case, at all)?

Check the OP, they don't start off face to face, guns are at the ready, not a quick draw fight.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Placidity
Actually they don't start off face to face.

Likely Zero/Preston will be looking for them when two bullet rounds a corner and enters their brains.



/ thread.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Placidity
Check the OP, they don't start off face to face, guns are at the ready, not a quick draw fight.

I did. They do not start from "cover" as people are trying to pass off.


Check the OP: Fox and Gibson are coming to Zero and Preston. No one starts from cover. Zero and Preston are looking down on Gibson and Fox. Since that is how the thread starts, Gibson and Fox die after blocking one or two bullets (one has two automatic Glocks and the other, pistols) as they are being fired upon from the "top floor" location.

Bad OP construction results in a one-sided victory.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by dadudemon
I did. They do not start from "cover" as people are trying to pass off.


Check the OP: Fox and Gibson are coming to Zero and Preston. No one starts from cover. Correct, but I seriously doubt that Preston and Zero are just gonna sit on their hands and wait for the benders to come to them. Likely they'll stalk to.

Placidity
Originally posted by dadudemon
I did. They do not start from "cover" as people are trying to pass off.


Check the OP: Fox and Gibson are coming to Zero and Preston. No one starts from cover.



That does imply cover though. Navigating the building with caution and behind 'cover' seems like what would happen.


Originally posted by dadudemon
Zero and Preston are looking down on Gibson and Fox. Since that is how the thread starts

Yea looking down, but according to the OP, not firing, hence Wesley/Gibson "must make their way to them and kill them". Otherwise, they could just return firing, they wouldn't need to make their way any where.

Like RJ said in the previous post, he meant for Zero and Preston to make their way down while Wesley/Fox came up.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Placidity


Like RJ said in the previous post, he meant for Zero and Preston to make their way down while Wesley/Fox came up. I just meant that that was likely what would happen, that they would not just sit around, that they would take the fight to the benders.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Placidity
That does imply cover though. Navigating the building with caution and behind 'cover' seems like what would happen.

I'm all for evidence of Preston and Zero taking cover. I don't recall them ever doing that. If they do, I'm cool with them taking cover and possibly getting a curved bullet to the face and saying that Preston and Zero lose 1/10 times.




Originally posted by Placidity
Yea looking down, but according to the OP, not firing, hence Wesley/Gibson "must make their way to them and kill them". Otherwise, they could just return firing, they wouldn't need to make their way any where.

In which case, Preston comes out, unscathed, and Zero possibly gets tagged once...MAYBE. What's far more likely is Zero and Preston take the other team out from above with their superior "draw and fire" times.

Originally posted by Placidity
Like RJ said in the previous post, he meant for Zero and Preston to make their way down while Wesley/Fox came up.

Intentions do not matter. What matters is the OP rules. I can create a thread and intend one side to win, but that doesn't actually case one side to win over the other: the rules abilities of the participants do.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by dadudemon




Intentions do not matter. What matters is the OP rules. I can create a thread and intend one side to win, but that doesn't actually case one side to win over the other: the rules abilities of the participants do. So you think they'll just sit on the roof having lunch, waiting for the benders to come to them?


lulz, dude. They'll take the fight to the benders, you know it and I know it.

Placidity
Originally posted by dadudemon


Intentions do not matter. What matters is the OP rules. I can create a thread and intend one side to win, but that doesn't actually case one side to win over the other: the rules abilities of the participants do.

I'm confused brah, we were discussing the starting conditions of the fight. I was merely saying Preston/Zero DO NOT fire on the other team at the start of the fight described in OP (which I believe you said they DO). Both teams are hunting each other. Your post here doesn't seem relevant.

edit: and i'm pretty sure RJ wants Preston/Zero to win.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Placidity
I'm confused brah, we were discussing the starting conditions of the fight. I was merely saying Preston/Zero DO NOT fire on the other team at the start of the fight described in OP (which I believe you said they DO). Both teams are hunting each other. Your post here doesn't seem relevant.

edit: and i'm pretty sure RJ wants Preston/Zero to win. Wanted, I just realized days ago that they can't.

Placidity
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Wanted, I just realized days ago that they can't.

Lol, did you watch Wanted recently?

Rogue Jedi
Hey, bullet benders suck, lookit this guy!!

iNLs01nuVyg&NR=1

DDM will come at us with "ZOMG Preston dodged bullets from machine guns!!!" And he's right, Preston did do that. From dumbass cops, NOT Clerics. Now, DDM will say "ZOMG those guys were Clerics!!!"....Why, if they are clerics, did they not do Gun Kata? Why did they sit there like n00bs, in one spot, like idiots, firing away blindly? Now, DDM will say "ZOMG Gun kata doesn't work on one shooter!!!"

Oh yeah? FF to 6:30


6pTGXUig6lY


IF those machine gun goons were clerics, they would have employed gun kata, plain and simple.






Now.....Check out Wesley here:

-S-7OdAc3ws&feature=related


He is running, scratch that, SPRINTING at the bullet benders in the factory, avoiding all their return fire. He kills 32 men by my count before he is finally hit in the shoulder.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Placidity
Lol, did you watch Wanted recently?

Holy shit, you're psychic or something. laughing

That's a little creepy that you were able to figure that out. I mean, damn.





And if you think I'm being sarcastic, I'm totally not. That kind of freaked me out a bit. I mean, WTF? laughing

0mega Spawn
Originally posted by dadudemon


Also, Preston isn't a "cover" dude. He walks right out into the open . laughing damn really...
this will be too easy for gibson & fox

dadudemon
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
DDM will come at us with "ZOMG Preston dodged bullets from machine guns!!!" And he's right, Preston did do that. From dumbass cops, NOT Clerics. Now, DDM will say "ZOMG those guys were Clerics!!!"....Why, if they are clerics, did they not do Gun Kata? Why did they sit there like n00bs, in one spot, like idiots, firing away blindly? Now, DDM will say "ZOMG Gun kata doesn't work on one shooter!!!"

Oh yeah? FF to 6:30


6pTGXUig6lY

Oh, hai, trollboy.


Already told you I was kidding about it not working on one person. Or did you forget that?

Here's me taking you seriously:

Also, the Gramaton cleric guards obviously didn't use Gun Kata because:

1. They didn't think it would be necessary to use it on ONE cleric in a hallway when there were 20 of them and 1 of him.
2. It's a really bright idea to dodge into the line of automatic assault rifle gun-fire of the dude next to you, right? dur
3. We clearly saw in the demo video that there were multiple perps, strongly indicating the Gun Kata realizes its potential or best use against....multiple perps. dur
4. Firing away blindly, eh? Then why was the wall completely Swiss Sheese DIRECTLY behind Preston after those 4 dudes got done unloading, with their automatic assault rifles I might add, on Preston?
5. Why would you have regular-old-joe COPS guarding the supreme theocratic leader of the only world super-power when the entire organization is comprised of Gramaton clerics seeking to enforce the elimination of EC-10 classified materials? Oh, that's right, you're in denial.


No please, admit you were wrong and stop swinging from Jaden's blood and semen covered nuts.


Also: you seem to want to call of the people at Gibson HQ "bullet benders" when very few people were shown having that ability. Narf! Stick to the rules, dude. big grin


Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
laughing damn really...
this will be too easy for gibson & fox

I know, right? Gibson and Fox die super quickly with ease.
Originally posted by Placidity
Yea looking down, but according to the OP, not firing, hence Wesley/Gibson "must make their way to them and kill them". Otherwise, they could just return firing, they wouldn't need to make their way any where.

Like RJ said in the previous post, he meant for Zero and Preston to make their way down while Wesley/Fox came up.

Nah, they open fire. It's silly to think they are just going to look at each other.

Or do you honeslty think they are going to run down 20 stories and the other run up 20 stories to have a shootout in a location that neither of them know about until it happens (With Preston having the upper hand with his seemingly super-human senses of location) or will they just start firing as soon as the thread starts while they are looking at each other? I think it's a firing now ask questions later as Zero and Preston are apt to do.

Placidity
Originally posted by dadudemon

Or do you honeslty think they are going to run down 20 stories and the other run up 20 stories to have a shootout in a location that neither of them know about until it happens (With Preston having the upper hand with his seemingly super-human senses of location) or will they just start firing as soon as the thread starts while they are looking at each other? I think it's a firing now ask questions later as Zero and Preston are apt to do.

OP has clarified thats not the starting conditions, and those conditions are up to OP.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Placidity
OP has clarified thats not the starting conditions, and those conditions are up to OP.

In other words, "you're wrong, I'm right."

No, you're wrong and I'm right. So where do we go from here?

OP clealry says that they must make their way to Zero and Preston. In other words, you're definitely wrong and I'm right. There's no arguing that as it is quite clear that I'm right: Prestong and Zero can open fire right as the thread starts. OP clearly states that Fox and Gibson must make their way to the top to get to them, but not the other way around. In other words: Gibson and Fox get extremely raped.

Placidity
Originally posted by dadudemon
In other words, "you're wrong, I'm right."

No, you're wrong and I'm right. So where do we go from here?

OP clealry says that they must make their way to Zero and Preston. In other words, you're definitely wrong and I'm right. There's no arguing that as it is quite clear that I'm right: Prestong and Zero can open fire right as the thread starts. OP clearly states that Fox and Gibson must make their way to the top to get to them, but not the other way around. In other words: Gibson and Fox get extremely raped.

I don't know what your problem is.

You want the fight to start with just Wesley/Fox in Zero/Preston's sights already and they get shot on the get-go.

RJ has stated thats not how the fight starts, they both hunt or 'stalk' each other. RJ has explicitly clarified this, yet you ignore it and cling on to your interpretation of what he meant.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Placidity
I don't know what your problem is.

No problem. I'm just making sure we don't mince words or hide behind certain sentence structures. You won't hurt my feelings: just say it straight. Of course, no name calling and stuff like that. If I'm wrong, say I'm wrong: it wouldn't be the first time and it won't be the last time. big grin

Originally posted by Placidity
You want the fight to start with just Wesley/Fox in Zero/Preston's sights already and they get shot on the get-go.

You libel me with your lies! laughing I did not say "within their sights" or anything remotely close to that.

Observe:

Originally posted by dadudemon
..you have the two faster "gun" drawers on the same team. No matter how skilled at bending bullets the Fox/Gibson team is, that doesn't prevent the Preston/Zero team from killing them both before they can get even one bent bullet off.

Originally posted by dadudemon
...Zero has the fastest draw out of all of them and can shoot off 2 bullets before all but Preston pull out their gun and fire one bullet.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think it's a firing now ask questions later as Zero and Preston are apt to do.

Clearly, I've indicated why Preston/Zero team wins from the very beginning of the thread. Clearly, I've not said that the fight starts with Preston and Zero having their guns drawn and Gibson and Fox in their sights.



Originally posted by Placidity
RJ has stated thats not how the fight starts,

There's definitely no reason to re-summerize the OP as you and I clearly know what it states.

Originally posted by Placidity
they both hunt or 'stalk' each other. RJ has explicitly clarified this, yet you ignore it and cling on to your interpretation of what he meant.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Intentions do not matter. What matters is the OP rules. I can create a thread and intend one side to win, but that doesn't actually case one side to win over the other: the rules abilities of the participants do.



Edit - That does not change how awesome Wanted is. It is still quite an awesome film.

It's just not as awesome as Equilibrium. big grin


Curving bullet trajectories: impossible.

Dodging automatic gunfire from 4 sources from less than 20 feet away withOUT having super-human speed: impossible.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by dadudemon


Also, the Gramaton cleric guards obviously didn't use Gun Kata because:

1. They didn't think it would be necessary to use it on ONE cleric in a hallway when there were 20 of them and 1 of him.
2. It's a really bright idea to dodge into the line of automatic assault rifle gun-fire of the dude next to you, right? dur
3. We clearly saw in the demo video that there were multiple perps, strongly indicating the Gun Kata realizes its potential or best use against....multiple perps. dur
4. Firing away blindly, eh? Then why was the wall completely Swiss Sheese DIRECTLY behind Preston after those 4 dudes got done unloading, with their automatic assault rifles I might add, on Preston?
5. Why would you have regular-old-joe COPS guarding the supreme theocratic leader of the only world super-power when the entire organization is comprised of Gramaton clerics seeking to enforce the elimination of EC-10 classified materials? Oh, that's right, you're in denial.
They didn't think it would be necessary? Against the top shit Cleric, Preston?




Er.......K........ confused

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Placidity
I don't know what your problem is.

You want the fight to start with just Wesley/Fox in Zero/Preston's sights already and they get shot on the get-go.

RJ has stated thats not how the fight starts, they both hunt or 'stalk' each other. RJ has explicitly clarified this, yet you ignore it and cling on to your interpretation of what he meant. DDM is a self admitted rabid Preston fanboy. You know how you guys call me a Harry Potter fanboy? Well, take that and multiply it times infinity.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
DDM is a self admitted rabid Preston fanboy. You know how you guys call me a Harry Potter fanboy? Well, take that and multiply it times infinity.

You know me too well, *****. laughing laughing laughing

Rogue Jedi
yes

Placidity
Originally posted by dadudemon

Curving bullet trajectories: impossible.

Dodging automatic gunfire from 4 sources from less than 20 feet away withOUT having super-human speed: impossible.

We've already discussed this though.

The concept of Gun Kata is illogical. Not only that, it completely nullifies the accuracy and skills of ANY opponent. Even without curving bullets, Wesley can see and hit objects as small and fast as the wings of a fly. But when you apply the illogical concept of Gun Kata, no feat will count for anything against it. Lets say we have an Android, programed to perfection in skill and accuracy. In all tests, it has 100% accuracy and has never missed its targets under any conditions. If you pitted that against Preston, Preston would still automatically win due to the Gun Kata limitless fallacy. I thought you agreed with this previously.

Heck, going with Gun Kata, you can't give me a reason why Preston wouldn't win against Zero, 47, Wesley, Fox, Bourne and Mr X at the same time, although I wouldn't be surprised if you said he would win, its not the first time I've heard such a thing.

Rogue Jedi
**** gun kata. All that Prestons opponents have to do to avoid being hit by his return fire is to not stand in one place. Sidestep left, Preston misses.


I'd LOVE to see him fight Mariachi.

DarkNemesis
Originally posted by Placidity
The concept of Gun Kata is illogical. Not only that, it completely nullifies the accuracy and skills of ANY opponent. Even without curving bullets, Wesley can see and hit objects as small and fast as the wings of a fly. But when you apply the illogical concept of Gun Kata, no feat will count for anything against it.

Gun Kata allows the practitioner to avoid bullets by calculating the trajectory. I don't understand why that would be illogical in a fictional universe. Bullet-timers can dodge bullets by reacting to them after they're fired. Clerics calculate the trajectory of the bullet instead of actually reacting to it. Different ways of avoiding gunfire I guess. And since when is Gun Kata infallible? I'm sure it can be overwhelmed by sufficient gunfire, or another opponent with equal reaction/bullet-timing skills. Heck, a bullet-timer's reaction can also be overwhelmed by enough bullets too. I'm pretty sure Gun Kata isn't made out to be invincible. If Bourne wasn't able to tag Neo with a bullet, would it be because Neo reacted to the bullet and dodged? Or would we say Bourne's accuracy and skills are nullified?

Or am I misunderstanding you lol?



Preston's ability to calculate gun trajectories will allow him to dodge the android's fire here. A bullet-timer like Yulaw would easily be able to avoid the android's gun fire too. The android missing isn't a knock against its aim at all, as accuracy is nullified if the opponent is able to dodge bullets, especially from just one gunman. Unless if the Android can shoot bullets faster than normal, it won't be able to hit a bullet-timer.



No, he'd lose that. Wesley and Fox, IMO, can overtax Gun Kata, as both of them have bullet-timing abilities, and they have that bullet-curving that effectively cancels out Preston's ability to calculate bullet trajectories, since the bullet isn't traveling in a normal straight line.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Placidity
We've already discussed this though.

The concept of Gun Kata is illogical. Not only that, it completely nullifies the accuracy and skills of ANY opponent. Even without curving bullets, Wesley can see and hit objects as small and fast as the wings of a fly. But when you apply the illogical concept of Gun Kata, no feat will count for anything against it. Lets say we have an Android, programed to perfection in skill and accuracy. In all tests, it has 100% accuracy and has never missed its targets under any conditions. If you pitted that against Preston, Preston would still automatically win due to the Gun Kata limitless fallacy. I thought you agreed with this previously.

I did and my post that you quoted indicates that.

Originally posted by Placidity
Heck, going with Gun Kata, you can't give me a reason why Preston wouldn't win against Zero, 47, Wesley, Fox, Bourne and Mr X at the same time, although I wouldn't be surprised if you said he would win, its not the first time I've heard such a thing.

Against zero? I can't see why Preston could not win but Zero is definitely faster than Preston on the draw (or just about anyone for that matter...we'd have to go to some old west duels to see something on part with Zero. lulz)

Personally, I think Zero solos the Wanted team. Preston is not needed. However, he's there to make things seem "even" but that's like putting prime Hulk Hogan against Little Miss Sunshine (Olive Hoover) and then giving Hulk spiked knuckles. laughing

dadudemon
Originally posted by DarkNemesis
Gun Kata allows the practitioner to avoid bullets by calculating the trajectory. I don't understand why that would be illogical in a fictional universe. Bullet-timers can dodge bullets by reacting to them after they're fired. Clerics calculate the trajectory of the bullet instead of actually reacting to it. Different ways of avoiding gunfire I guess. And since when is Gun Kata infallible? I'm sure it can be overwhelmed by sufficient gunfire, or another opponent with equal reaction/bullet-timing skills. Heck, a bullet-timer's reaction can also be overwhelmed by enough bullets too. I'm pretty sure Gun Kata isn't made out to be invincible. If Bourne wasn't able to tag Neo with a bullet, would it be because Neo reacted to the bullet and dodged? Or would we say Bourne's accuracy and skills are nullified?

Or am I misunderstanding you lol?

You misunderstand. It would require Preston to move at super-human speeds. Preston is, at best, peak human in Agility, endurance, and speed (not strength, from what I could tell.) Preston never moves at superhuman speeds. Therefore, a logical problem is occuring with himi dodging trajectories and bullets: we see him dodge bullets AFTER guns were fired, giving us a very illogical result of him being a bullet dodger with no superhuman speed. An example of another bullet dogder is Ozymandias from Watchmen. We actually had time slowed down and he moved as superhuman speeds in order to dodge that bullet: the director (editor) had the shot slowed down to show us how fast Ozy was. This does not occur for Preston and he only moved at human speeds in the film: ergo, logical physics problem.

That's just the "physics" approach to it, alone. There's also the problem that Placidity pointed out, long ago, of Preston's flavor of Gun Kata where everyone misses the ever elusive John Preston. No matter what they; including a hallway of 20 fully-automatic assault rifle armed top-level gramaton gaurds; do, they always miss him. Not one shot ever hits Preston, nicks Preston, or even is shown coming close (like his hair moving just a bit from the bullet passing).

Preston's ability to calculate gun trajectories will allow him to dodge the android's fire here. A bullet-timer like Yulaw would easily be able to avoid the android's gun fire too. The android missing isn't a knock against its aim at all, as accuracy is nullified if the opponent is able to dodge bullets, especially from just one gunman. Unless if the Android can shoot bullets faster than normal, it won't be able to hit a bullet-timer.



Originally posted by DarkNemesis
No, he'd lose that. Wesley and Fox, IMO, can overtax Gun Kata, as both of them have bullet-timing abilities, and they have that bullet-curving that effectively cancels out Preston's ability to calculate bullet trajectories, since the bullet isn't traveling in a normal straight line.

That argument has been destroyed, long ago. Just check back throuh the thread.

DarkNemesis
Originally posted by dadudemon
You misunderstand. It would require Preston to move at super-human speeds. Preston is, at best, peak human in Agility, endurance, and speed (not strength, from what I could tell.) Preston never moves at superhuman speeds. Therefore, a logical problem is occuring with himi dodging trajectories and bullets: we see him dodge bullets AFTER guns were fired, giving us a very illogical result of him being a bullet dodger with no superhuman speed.

Oh I see where you're coming from. Yes, you're absolutely correct, in order to dodge bullets after they're fired, the character has to move at incredible speeds, speeds that the human eye cannot track.

Here's the scene btw:

wl71js_Cne0

1:54 - 1:56 is the scene in question right? I see the trick they did, they showed the gunmen shoot, then quickly cut to Preston dodging. Very similar to the Hit Girl bullet dodges in this scene:

CYPkXRFHnvg

Check out 3:26 and 3:37. The exact same camera trick, gunman shoots, quickly cuts to Hit Girl dodging.

It's not possible to dodge a bullet like that by moving your head at normal speeds. I have heard some people label both those as aim-dodging, saying that they actually move before the bullets are fired, but it's just shot afterwards. I don't know, I'm just saying.



That's true, and it's usually the way that bullet-timing scenes shot (Even if he didn't really dodge any bullets per se, the superhuman speed was definitely there).



Lol, didn't I post this?

Yeah, now I understand Placidity's point of labeling Gun Kata as illogical. But to be honest, they did dumb down those hallway people rather badly, most of them didn't even fire a shot off, and when they did, they were already shot, making their own shots fly all over the place as they fall to the ground.

So what exactly were you and Placidity debating over then?

dadudemon
Originally posted by DarkNemesis
Oh I see where you're coming from. Yes, you're absolutely correct, in order to dodge bullets after they're fired, the character has to move at incredible speeds, speeds that the human eye cannot track.

Here's the scene btw:

wl71js_Cne0

1:54 - 1:56 is the scene in question right? I see the trick they did, they showed the gunmen shoot, then quickly cut to Preston dodging. Very similar to the Hit Girl bullet dodges in this scene:

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Check out 3:26 and 3:37. The exact same camera trick, gunman shoots, quickly cuts to Hit Girl dodging.

It's not possible to dodge a bullet like that by moving your head at normal speeds. I have heard some people label both those as aim-dodging, saying that they actually move before the bullets are fired, but it's just shot afterwards. I don't know, I'm just saying.



That's true, and it's usually the way that bullet-timing scenes shot (Even if he didn't really dodge any bullets per se, the superhuman speed was definitely there).



Lol, didn't I post this?

Yeah, now I understand Placidity's point of labeling Gun Kata as illogical. But to be honest, they did dumb down those hallway people rather badly, most of them didn't even fire a shot off, and when they did, they were already shot, making their own shots fly all over the place as they fall to the ground.

So what exactly were you and Placidity debating over then?


About the Hit Girl scene. We actually see how fast the bullet travles as it streaks across the screen. I've posted on it before but the bullets in Kick *ss are actually traveling significantly slower than real bullets. I was supposed to do a frame by frame calc on the actual bullet speed for the film a while back, but I never got around to getting the film on Blu-Ray so I could do so.

Placidity
Originally posted by DarkNemesis


Yeah, now I understand Placidity's point of labeling Gun Kata as illogical.

Thanks to DDM.

Although there is another point that may have been left out.

Lets assume that Gun Kata works even with human speed.

We all know Gun Kata is all about avoiding bullet trajectories blah blah blah etc.

However, in the final hallway scene, there are at least 20 men unloading automatic fire in Preston's immediate area, which means, wherever he stepped to (to avoid the bullet path), he would still be in the line of fire. Of course he doesn't get shot, ....because ...? Which is another point I've made about the limitless fallacy. According to that feat, there is nothing to suggest that Gun Kata can be overtaxed, since he has already defied the impossible.

Another (or the same) argument for Preston/Gun Kata vs Wesley:

1. Wesley sees Preston/ Preston sees Wesley

2. They both raise their guns, Preston predicts how Wesley will
shoot (lets not get into the bullet bending isn't predictable stuff yet) and does his little dance to avoid the bullet.

3. Wesley activates adrenaline mode, where he perceives things move so slowly, he can see the wings of a fly in flight.

4. Wesley aims the gun at the veerrrryy slow target (Preston's head) and fires.

5. Explain how Wesley misses.

This is just an example to make the truth easier to see, when in fact, Wesley doesn't even need slow-mo perception to hit Preston. I mean think about it. You raise you gun at Preston, and he moves before you fire (if he moves after you fire then thats superspeed, which he clearly doesn't have). You see him move, and you shoot him at his new position. Simple.

The same thing can be used against Zero. Zero does indeed have a quick draw in REAL TIME. But when Wesley is pumping adrenaline, Zero slows down.

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