Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

so anyone know the exact score on wins and losses they have to each other. I know the two have fought on several occassions but I have trouble getting my hands on the issues where they do fight. also some of the links on the WonderWoman respect thread are broken

i don't think there's an actual score, or if there is, i don't know it.

in most of their fights, diana seems to be portrayed as giving him a good fight, but he usually wins in the end...

We have seen where Diana is bloodlusted, she is capable of harming him with her tiara and sword - like when she made the decision to kill Maxwell Lord.

ww does have magic based powers, yes?

I've wondered the same question, and have not been able to find a list. By far the most common outcome is a draw is one thing I'm sure of, and while in the fights Clark tends to have the advantage, the final results is probably a lot closer to even than many people suspect.

Greg Rucka has stated she has the advantage on the ground, him in flight.

Originally posted by super pr*xy
ww does have magic based powers, yes?

Yes, most notably in some nice magic weapons.

how come they don't have those scans in the SM and WW RT's?
IMO, either of them giving the other a fight is a feat.

Originally posted by Hell Lancer
how come they don't have those scans in the SM and WW RT's?
IMO, either of them giving the other a fight is a feat.

The WW respect thread had some of them, both recent (like Sacrifice) and old, but then the image host of a lot of the pics in that thread went down.

Wonder Woman is a perfect mixture of Amazonian beauty, her soft ivory curves counterbalancing her hinted muscularity.I like Superman, but he's just too powerful.

Superman has treated her (and her magical sword) like a common street whore on more than one occasion.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i don't think there's an actual score, or if there is, i don't know it.

in most of their fights, diana seems to be portrayed as giving him a good fight, but he usually wins in the end... Pretty much.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Superman has treated her (and her magical sword) like a common street whore on more than one occasion.
If you're referring to "For Tomorrow" then I'd like to point out that pretty much everyone got that treatment in said story. Superman treated Batman like an angry child throwing a temper tantrum and Kyle Rayner was just some hapless damsel in distress that needed Superman to rescue him from peril.

I loved the story but the writer tried way too hard to make Superman a badass to the detriment of pretty much every other character he came into contact with.

What are some of the other ocassions?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
If you're referring to "For Tomorrow" then I'd like to point out that pretty much everyone got that treatment in said story. Superman treated Batman like an angry child throwing a temper tantrum and Kyle Rayner was just some hapless damsel in distress that needed Superman to rescue him from peril.

I loved the story but the writer tried way too hard to make Superman a badass to the detriment of pretty much every other character he came into contact with.

What are some of the other ocassions?

And also, despite his attitude, he didn't win in the fighting, so that really doesn't say much. They fought for awhile, each getting some attacks in (and she was oddly equipped only with a little dagger instead of her sword, axe or lasso, each of which would've been better, especially the lasso since she was just trying to stop him), then she had to go save some dudes, because that's how she roles.

It was a stalemate, Sacrifice was, if anything, a win for Diana, League of One was a start of a fight then Clark getting the 'others in danger' line making him run off (while admitting actually taking him down was unlikely), and when fighting a magic *boosted* Superman who Circe made go into a blind rage and become more Doomsdayish and stronger than normal, she fought him long enough to break that enchantment too.



It's hard to think of the last time she's lost. Well, I guess in the absolutely horrible Tenth Circle he suckerpunched her in the back of the head, but then she held off a vampire-controlled Superman quite well later on.

Stalemates are the rule between the two of them and Enyalus's comment can be ignored.


Though I will note that in Elseworlds, alternate WWs tend to do horribly for some reason. It's pretty annoying.

Originally posted by Q99

It's hard to think of the last time she's lost. Well, I guess in the absolutely horrible Tenth Circle he suckerpunched her in the back of the head, but then she held off a vampire-controlled Superman quite well later on.

KLUDD!!

Originally posted by Omega Vision
If you're referring to "For Tomorrow" then I'd like to point out that pretty much everyone got that treatment in said story. Superman treated Batman like an angry child throwing a temper tantrum and Kyle Rayner was just some hapless damsel in distress that needed Superman to rescue him from peril.

I loved the story but the writer tried way too hard to make Superman a badass to the detriment of pretty much every other character he came into contact with.

What are some of the other ocassions?
I was talking about....ah. I forget exactly when it occurred. I believe its volume 3 of the JLA, around Identity Crisis? Wonder Woman attacks Superman with her sword, the art shows multiple strikes with it, and Superman is standing there blocking all of them casually with one hand.

I hope Pr knows what I'm referring to if no one else does.

What's generally said about them is "Yea, Superman'll eventually win*, but it'll be a heck of a fight**." With the two notes being *They almost never get a chance to fight it out to the end, and **Unless Clark makes a mistake or Diana gets lucky, like with a tiara throw.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I was talking about....ah. I forget exactly when it occurred. I believe its volume 3 of the JLA, around Identity Crisis? Wonder Woman attacks Superman with her sword, the art shows multiple strikes with it, and Superman is standing there blocking all of them casually with one hand.

I hope Pr knows what I'm referring to if no one else does.

that was martian manhunter masquerading as diana, iirc.

he schooled him so bad, though.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Superman has treated her (and her magical sword) like a common street whore on more than one occasion.

i laffed.

also, speaking of whores, i want more all star batman.

Originally posted by -Pr-
that was martian manhunter masquerading as diana, iirc.

he schooled him so bad, though.

Ah, so trying to fight like Diana, but without her skill or the actual magic sword. I can see where that would be a problem

Oh wait, or was that from the totally lousy The Tenth Circle story arc? I think she broke a mundane sword (i.e. not her normal enchanted blade, just one she picked up there) against him in that.

And the story does have this in it too saying they're equal. Though you can tell from the page it's not a particularly good source.

Originally posted by Q99
Oh wait, or was that from the totally lousy The Tenth Circle story arc? I think she broke a mundane sword (i.e. not her normal enchanted blade, just one she picked up there) against him in that.

And the story does have this in it too saying they're equal. Though you can tell from the page it's not a particularly good source.

i think that is the same arc, yes.

i don't think one statement contradicts the comics that say otherwise, though.

not saying he's vastly superior or anything, but even gail simone agrees that he's at the very least stronger.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i think that is the same arc, yes.

i don't think one statement contradicts the comics that say otherwise, though.

not saying he's vastly superior or anything, but even gail simone agrees that he's at the very least stronger.

Oh yea, I agree as well, I'm just saying we can't take an event from that story as a sign of a major inequality between them either.

Originally posted by Q99
Oh yea, I agree as well, I'm just saying we can't take an event from that story as a sign of a major inequality between them either.

oh, definitely not.

Superman vs. Wonder Woman in Sacrafice was epic!! When I started reading comics, it was one of the main events/fights I read. Kudos for the awesome writing and fight scene. This fight alone proves that Diana can hang with Superman. She wasn't trying to kill him, but nevertheless was able to survive the event. Anyway, most of the encounters I've read about them aren't really fights, but more sparring per say. Other than Sacrifice, I remember reading a couple of issues of Superman (cant remember the numbering) where Diana had her armor and they were duking it out in the fortress of solitude. I can't remember what happened exactly, because I'm still missing a couple of back issues from that run.

Wonder Woman is strong but not stronger than Superman. It is 20 odd years of reading comics and his gun. It can take in a fight, but not for long. But having said that, if neither of them had powers she wiped the floor with him.

While Superman is stronger, it has an advantage, simply because he is Kryptonian. Take away the powers of Diana, she is a seasoned warrior in close combat, sword fighting, archery, etc. She could probably give Batman a run for its money.

Originally posted by Hell Lancer
I know have fought on several occassions but I have trouble getting my hands on the issues...

also some of the links on the WonderWoman respect thread are broken


When DC Comics Official Message Boards were still in operation
(gone only a month now, actually, beginning of March 2012), I used to look at this place as part-model for how a fan forum SHOULD be, especially when it came to KMC's "respect" threads:

fans simply talking about their favorite characters and subjects --
with a battleship load of visual aids to further dialogue!

KMC had several problems, though. Still does.

1) People rarely, if ever, cite good reference information for their entries.
2) People re-use images without translation, or borrow them from others and fail to translate through a different host provider.


For the first, a simple source, author, penciller, and date for each set might work wonders in making people aware of where they can actually purchase these story favorites.

For the second ... well, it sure would be nice if fans were in the habit of sharing where free, no-registration host providers can be found.

Actually, THE most effective solution I can see is simply to use KMC's own image-uploading programs. That way, for as long as KMC is around, the images are around. When KMC goes out, the images would follow, of course, but, at that point, who would care?

At any rate, back to the subject of this thread: Superman versus Wonder Woman. I find it more than a little disconcerting that this discussion has to take place in a nearly Superman-exclusive forum, and that there IS no Wonder Woman forum where this could take place.
Granted, most are going to know what Superman is capable of.
How many people are going to know what Diana can do, though?
Where are they going to get THEIR information?

It's a worse problem than most people realize.
It is common in any "versus" discussion to list favorite feats to prove the prowess of one's favorite fighter, for instance.
You can do that with Superman. He has 3 titles to himself, all of which have him showcasing various feats of strength, speed, durability, etcetera.
You can't do that with Wonder Woman.
She only has 1 title. And that one is typically NOT wont to show her doing anything wondrous or particularly noteworthy.
In point of fact, nearly every top-tier feat you will ever see Wonder Woman perform from roughly 1986 to the present year is to be found in some GROUP title.

Still, she does have them. Perhaps if I show some of them in this thread in the days or whatever time periods available to come,
I can raise awareness, challenge perspectives, and give this discussion something more genuinely solid to go on.

I'm getting ahead of myself here, though. Let me just begin, for ...

Wonder Woman versus sound barrier, brick wall, and One Man Army Corps (OMAC) unit, scan 2 ...

Actually, now that I think of it, let me post a fuller scan to show the specific MENTION of the sonic-barrier breaking, along with exactly where this is taking place, AND the wall smash.
KMC's 250 KB size limit is stringent, but I still should have enough room for THAT without interuppting the flow ...

Wonder Woman versus OMAC, scan 2 (fuller version)

Let me introduce you to the Comic respect forum and the Wonder Woman respect thread

Your posts would be most appreciated there.

It might be worth a moment to explain, at the least, that an OMAC is a "super" cyborg. The form Diana was fighting was nanotechnology that took over ordinary human people and made them into such powerful fighting forces that they could fight and eliminate people in the class of Captain Marvel, Eradicator, and Superman.

Over in KMC's "All New Supergirl Respect Thread" (which is actually now about 5 years old -- time flies!), one can be seen reversing a choke Supergirl put one in (JLA #122, Volume 1), applying it instead to HER.

This is particularly interesting to note when one considers that the writings of Jeph Loeb, Joe Kelly, and Mark Verheiden all provide evidence that Kara was, in fact, physically stronger than her cousin Kal-el, alias Clark Kent, aka Superman.

Below, you can see an OMAC giving the Man of Steel himself some problems ...

... here is how Diana deals with the OMAC.

This scene is powerfully drawn by Rags Morales, who gives Wonder Woman a physically strong and dynamic physique in most portrayals.

It is worth noting, however, that JUST muscling around her opponent wouldn't accomplish her objective.

Diana is ALSO demonstrating tactical battle-planning here.

The extreme cold disables the nanotechnology commanding the relatively innocent victim within the super-unit ...

... and once Diana's strong fingers gently crack the ice now encasing the OMAC's victim, her fight is won.

Source: Wonder Woman #221, Volume 2
Writer: Greg Rucka
Pencillers: Rags Morales & Cliff Richards
Date: November 2005

^You can always use one of image hosting sites like photobucket, imageshack or turboimagehost and link the images.

Alas, Q does not remember me ...

I actually have a few posts in one of the threads you mention.
To be fair, however, my last submission there was more than 2 years ago. Nice to know you're still friendly after all this time, though!
Greetings, once again!




Abhilegend,

I thank you for the tip, and, for the last of your sites, I intend to pay a lot of visitation if it allows no-registration uploading. Know that I intend the scans here to be shared; you are welcome to submit anything I post in this thread through the places Q mentioned. I think it best for me personally to continue with KMC-only uploads for now, however.

You see, I have 3 TIMES in the past had Image Host Providers go out of service on me (ImageHoop.com, picamatic.com, and AllYouCanUpload.com, respectively).

On the other hand, annoying though KMC's limited size is, it has proven a STABLE uploader for several years.
I want the work I share here to last as long as possible, Abhi.
It DOES take time to submit this stuff, after all ...

Thank you once again!

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Alas, Q does not remember me ...

I actually have a few posts in one of the threads you mention.
To be fair, however, my last submission there was more than 2 years ago. Nice to know you're still friendly after all this time, though!
Greetings, once again!




Abhilegend,

I thank you for the tip, and, for the last of your sites, I intend to pay a lot of visitation if it allows no-registration uploading. Know that I intend the scans here to be shared; you are welcome to submit anything I post in this thread through the places Q mentioned. I think it best for me personally to continue with KMC-only uploads for now, however.

You see, I have 3 TIMES in the past had Image Host Providers go out of service on me (ImageHoop.com, picamatic.com, and AllYouCanUpload.com, respectively).

On the other hand, annoying though KMC's limited size is, it has proven a STABLE uploader for several years.
I want the work I share here to last as long as possible, Abhi.
It DOES take time to submit this stuff, after all ...

Thank you once again!
Photobucket is the safest for such type of failure.

Yea, I find it reliable too.

---

One of the things I like most about the OMAC fight- that happens right after her big knock down, drag out fight with Superman, and she's still capable of taking on three high-level foes no prob. Really highlights her endurance/recovery speed.

You guys rock for trying to give me the input I need, but I don't think you quite understand what I meant.

When I said I had Image Host Providers fail me three times in the past, I don't mean simply that I tried uploading something and it wouldn't upload. I mean that the entire catalogue of images I'd put online to that point, several dozen scans in each case, were forever wiped out because the Image Host Provider WENT OUT OF BUSINESS.

Search "ImageHoop.com" and you will get nothing for your effort.
Same with "AllYouCanUpload.com" or even "Aycu.com", its more convenient acronym address. You will find nary a trace of it.
Picamatic ALMOST became one of these casualties, going out for several weeks before finally being brought back.

No, it is far more than just the annoyance of some mere handful of pictures getting lost that I'M trying to combat.
Only one who has outfitted a thread of some size can understand what it's like to lose the labor of many hours to such an affair, though. Nevertheless, I thank you both again for trying to help.

Q,

Regarding the OMAC fight, and the fact that Wonder Woman was injured and still doing better than most DC Heroes ...?

I agree. In fact, I was going to point out not only that, but the fact that Diana spent most of that preceeding fight (Sacrifice) battling a Superman who was NOT at his normal levels, nor even at "holding back" levels, nor even at "murderously enraged" levels.

He was SUNCHARGED and murderously enraged, and not holding back, and using every primal resource available to scour "Doomsday" off the face of the Earth. Effectively double or triple-boosted Superman was what Diana was facing.

To reiterate, the nearly-deciding stage of Sacrifice was, to judge from visual evidence, the Sun's scorching corona, boon to the Man of Steel, bane to Diana:

In fairness, the Superman she fought wasn't exactly at his best. Her lasting as long as she did was still a good feat, though.

Indeed, Superman fighting at full physical AND non-corrupted mental potential is someone to reckon with.

Still, Wonder Woman, at least as she's been presented from roughly 2001 to 2011, DOES have what it takes to contend on his level, and, arguably, above that level as well.

Unfortunately, editorial seems to have something against her.
Even when fairly egalitarian creative staff manage upon her.

The following snapshots of one such case should suggest exactly what I mean.


Tandiandthe223 -- Amazo Aristeia

Tandi and the 223 -- Amazo Aristeia, snapshot 2

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Indeed, Superman fighting at full physical AND non-corrupted mental potential is someone to reckon with.

Still, Wonder Woman, at least as she's been presented from roughly 2001 to 2011, DOES have what it takes to contend on his level, and, arguably, above that level as well.

Unfortunately, editorial seems to have something against her.
Even when fairly egalitarian creative staff manage upon her.

The following snapshots of one such case should suggest exactly what I mean.


Tandiandthe223 -- Amazo Aristeia

What do you mean exactly? I'm genuinely curious.

Tandiandthe223 -- Amazo Aristeia

In the process of showing (or at least trying to show) you, PR.

Be patient for about 7 minutes ...



Tandiandthe 223 -- Amazo Aristeia

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
In the process of showing (or at least trying to show) you, PR.

Be patient for about 7 minutes ...



Tandiandthe 223 -- Amazo Aristeia

I've read the issue

but okay, I'll wait.

Tandiandthe223 -- Amazo Aristeia

Tandi and the 223 -- Amazo Aristeia

Tandiandthe223 -- Amazo Aristeia



Source: Justice League of America #24, Volume 2
Writer: Dwayne McDuffie
Penciller: Ed Benes
Date: October 2008

Any particular submission set end is marked by reference information from me, P.R. Question away ... if you still have any!

I'm just wondering what you mean by editorial apparently having something against her.

1) Wonder Woman tends to be oversexualized. Here, it was enough that I decided to edit some of the shots, especially the 2nd to last panel of my last scan, just before Irons explains that, Superman powers or no, Amazo really IS gone this time.
Seriously, you have the book, you know what the full version looks like -- is it too much to ask for just a LITTLE modesty with what DC claims is their premier heroine?

2) Wonder Woman is seldom if ever allowed the opportunity to "come through" or "save the day" as characters like Superman, Green Lantern, Batman, or even Flash are wont to do.
Maybe I just haven't read enough DC books, but, what stories can YOU cite where Diana actually does something TRULY significant and is not just a stepping stone or redshirt for the "Big Bad" of the arc?

1. Okay, I can understand the oversexualisation (that even a word?), but that has been a staple of the character since the early days. Not saying it's right, but it is consistent.

What would you suggest they do to, well, give her more modesty?

2. That is true, but I don't think it's Diana that's singled out as much as it is Superman and Batman just being the premier day-savers. You could make the same complaint about people like Lantern, Flash, Aquaman even. And let's not forget poor J'onn.

What would help provide Diana more modesty?

a) Gradually developing a fuller costume.
b) Using alternate costumes/armor for different occasions.
c) Using reasonably athletic silicone-free women for artist's models for Di
d) Limiting Maxim-style poses in favor of more natural ones
e) Showing Diana in everyday dress once in a while.


Quietly, the Wonder Woman magazine HAS been doing the last, which I've been cheered to see.
Given who she visited in her last issue, I expect to see some Items from "B" making the rounds, too.

Finally, it would help to hire artists, who, by their nature, tend to be respectful of their characters.

Aaron Lopresti comes immediately to mind. He excelled at giving Diana a physique that communicated beauty and strength and hardness yet was still family friendly in nearly all situations.
Rags Morales wouldn't be too far behind. Haven't really seen anything offensive from him that I can remember.

Ed Benes ... ?
Well, all I will say is that Ed USED to be, back around 2002
(I'm thinking of the trade Many Happy Returns that he did the interior art for during that year) an artist of the kind I presently seek ...


--------------------------

I'll get back to you on the second part.
You ... may have something there.
I don't see it right now, and it doesn't feel like it, but it's possible to get false positive readings on this class of material I guess ...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What would help provide Diana more modesty?

a) Gradually developing a fuller costume.
b) Using alternate costumes/armor for different occasions.
c) Using reasonably athletic silicone-free women for artist's models for Di
d) Limiting Maxim-style poses in favor of more natural ones
e) Showing Diana in everyday dress once in a while.


Quietly, the Wonder Woman magazine HAS been doing the last, which I've been cheered to see.
Given who she visited in her last issue, I expect to see some Items from "B" making the rounds, too.

Finally, it would help to hire artists, who, by their nature, tend to be respectful of their characters.

Aaron Lopresti comes immediately to mind. He excelled at giving Diana a physique that communicated beauty and strength and hardness yet was still family friendly in nearly all situations.
Rags Morales wouldn't be too far behind. Haven't really seen anything offensive from him that I can remember.

Ed Benes ... ?
Well, all I will say is that Ed USED to be, back around 2002
(I'm thinking of the trade Many Happy Returns that he did the interior art for during that year) an artist of the kind I presently seek ...


--------------------------

I'll get back to you on the second part.
You ... may have something there.
I don't see it right now, and it doesn't feel like it, but it's possible to get false positive readings on this class of material I guess ...

a) Did you like the pants costume? Or would you want something else?
b) Armour would be good, sure.
c) They've done that before. And besides, athletic women can have fuller figures.
d) Sure, but there are already artists that do that.
e) They did that in her series, didn't they?

Benes likes his ass shots, that's true, but I think he's one of the few artists that can make a woman look absolutely gorgeous and yet completely badass at the same time.

I can't stand Rags Morales though.

I feel that this reboot hasn't been as kind to Diana as it has been to others.

Originally posted by -Pr-
a) Did you like the pants costume? Or would you want something else?
b) Armour would be good, sure.
c) They've done that before. And besides, athletic women can have fuller figures.
d) Sure, but there are already artists that do that.
e) They did that in her series, didn't they?

Benes likes his ass shots, that's true, but I think he's one of the few artists that can make a woman look absolutely gorgeous and yet completely badass at the same time.

.

I personally think she looks better with the pants


But about Benes he normally can do it right I think, sometimes he gets a little excessive but he normally manages to have it work in a way that it doesn't completely distract from what's going on. And like you said, makes them look badass.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I feel that this reboot hasn't been as kind to Diana as it has been to others.
What?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Q,

Regarding the OMAC fight, and the fact that Wonder Woman was injured and still doing better than most DC Heroes ...?

I agree. In fact, I was going to point out not only that, but the fact that Diana spent most of that preceeding fight (Sacrifice) battling a Superman who was NOT at his normal levels, nor even at "holding back" levels, nor even at "murderously enraged" levels.

He was SUNCHARGED and murderously enraged, and not holding back, and using every primal resource available to scour "Doomsday" off the face of the Earth. Effectively double or triple-boosted Superman was what Diana was facing.
He wasn't sun amped. They were fighting somewhere near venus IIRC and that isn't enough to amp him. That would be a hell of a jobbing on superman's part, he punked a kryptonian goddess and darkseid on the surface of sun. Oh forgot that you are the same guest2 of DCMB who claims that wonder woman is stronger than superman.

Originally posted by abhilegend
What?

I really don't feel DCnU Wonder Woman at all.

I tried really hard to give it a chance and read issues 1-6, but I'm not on board with it. I understand that Diana, of all the main DC characters, seems to be the one that's the most difficult to handle, but she just seems lost in the shuffle and doesn't carry that feeling of the character prior to the reboot.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He wasn't sun amped. They were fighting somewhere near venus IIRC and that isn't enough to amp him. That would be a hell of a jobbing on superman's part, he punked a kryptonian goddess and darkseid on the surface of sun. Oh forgot that you are the same guest2 of DCMB who claims that wonder woman is stronger than superman.

The format for responding to quotes here on KMC is new to me, despite the length of time I've been registered.
My only real postings on these particular forums have come in respect threads where there's relatively little back-and-forth exchange.
If I make mistakes, please bear with me.

Originally posted by abhilegend
you are ... guest2 of DCMB!

Who?

Originally posted by abhilegend
wasn't sun amped. They were fighting somewhere near Venus IIRC and that isn't enough to amp him.


You need to back this up.

I've SHOWN Superman and Wonder Woman visually fighting in the Sun's corona.
Wonder Woman #219, which is where this fight takes place, makes no mention of Venus.
It shows, on the contrary, about 5 MORE panels of sun-surface action.

I maintain that's where they were and the artwork and action backs me up.
Give something substantive if you're going to say otherwise.


Originally posted by abhilegend
That would be a hell of a jobbing on superman's part...

Let's assume you're right and that this WOULD be "a hell of a jobbing on Superman's part".
Are you saying then that Superman never "jobs", therefore this could not be the case?

Does that really seem a convincing point to you?

Originally posted by abhilegend
punked ... Darkseid on the surface of sun.

Darkseid got blasted with his own Omega Beams right in the face prior to that trip to the sun.
Until that point he was roughing Clark quite well, physically.
Not quite the case afterwards, was it?
Guess who did the deflection of those beams, by the way?

But certainly going to the sun amped him enough to punk Darkseid after that point.
That's part of the logic of GOING to the sun to begin with.

Right?

Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't think it's Diana that's singled out as much as it is Superman and Batman just being the premier day-savers. You could make the same complaint about people like Lantern, Flash, Aquaman even. And let's not forget poor J'onn ...


I want to make clearer what I mean. Information doesn't exist in a vacuum. Typically, it isn't interpreted in a vacuum, either. Rather, what surrounds it tends to influence what people get from it. I'm thinking it is the job of editorial to evaluate what impression people come away feeling after reading or viewing a work, and to dictate changes where necessary. To edit, in other words. Perhaps that idea is mistaken and that ISN'T what editorial actually does. I honestly don't know.

It does seem DC strives NOT to allow the last impression to be character-celebration where Diana is concerned, however.


This is a nebulous concept to express; let me just go to visual, making an analogy in terms you can understand. Let's take our hard-punching friend, Bronze Age Superman as he has a dispute with a strange green-hooded gent ...

Perceptions of Power. Superman v Spectre, scan 2.

The above should already begin explaining itself.

Bronze Age, pre-Crisis on Infinite Earth Superman was one of the strongest Superheroes of all time. At 2/3 rds power, for instance, he could literally move the entirety of planet Earth with a good hard shove.
In fact, a check of one of the pre-Crisis Kryptonian respect threads will actually SHOW him doing so!

It goes without saying that he could bring a mountain down with a single hard punch. Easy to see why young kids the world over love this guy.
Certainly I was one of them.


And yet ... is that the foremost impression one would come away with from this? His first punch seems about as effective as a man would be hitting an elephant with rolled up newspaper. Spectre seems hardly to notice it.

Superman's second punch is therefore on another order of magnitude.
Ground, hills, air, all shake with so much reverb aftershock that a moat or crater is left around Spectre. But Spectre himself?
Still blithely floating there, seemingly wondering why Superman doesn't give up on force and try something else.


Note: The punch itself, in fair objective terms, is quite respectable.
It is the FOLLOW-UP, the latter following or editing that discounts what preceded.

NOW, however, let us take a look at the impression left when you reinforce powerful pro-character imagery.

To that end, let's just look at the punch itself, isolated and enlarged to "showcase" size ...

... and let's follow with a selection that BUILDS on what we're given in that panel ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl_5UwS57X8

Look a little different now, P.R.?

"Superpunch" Reference Info

(for above Superman v Spectre/ Superman v Darkseid selections)





-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source 1: DC Comics Presents #29, Volume 1 (scan)
Writer: Len Wein
Penciller: Jim Starlin
Date: January 1981
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/DC_Comics_Presents_Vol_1_29


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source 2: Justice League Unlimited (YouTube clip)
Episode: "Destroyer"
Writer: Dwayne McDuffie
Director: Joaquim dos Santos
U.S. AirDate: May 13, 2006
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ List_of_Justice_League_episodes#Justice_League_Unl
imited_episodes

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I want to make clearer what I mean. Information doesn't exist in a vacuum. Typically, it isn't interpreted in a vacuum, either. Rather, what surrounds it tends to influence what people get from it. I'm thinking it is the job of editorial to evaluate what impression people come away feeling after reading or viewing a work, and to dictate changes where necessary. To edit, in other words. Perhaps that idea is mistaken and that ISN'T what editorial actually does. I honestly don't know.

It does seem DC strives NOT to allow the last impression to be character-celebration where Diana is concerned, however.


This is a nebulous concept to express; let me just go to visual, making an analogy in terms you can understand. Let's take our hard-punching friend, Bronze Age Superman as he has a dispute with a strange green-hooded gent ...

I get what you're saying, and I see your point, I guess I just don't feel like Wonder Woman is singled out any more than, say... J'onn, for instance.

I don't think it's a case of making Superman look good to make Diana look bad; just a case of them wanting to make Superman look good because, well, he's Superman.

Originally posted by -Pr-

a) Did you like the pants costume?


The one we actually got in the books? Not so much.
I like several versions of pantsed Wonder Woman outfits I've been seeing for the past year or so, though, even to the advertisement for "Drawing the Line" featured as the visual of this particular post.

Originally posted by -Pr-

c) athletic women can have fuller figures.


Again, I have NO complaint about a well-rendered, tasteful, and healthy female physique. It is only what even you yourself admitted was excessive that I object to. A woman's dress should make sense. An action hero's actions should make sense. They should not be there JUST to serve as fanservice. Especially not if she were designed to promote something good for young people by her creator.



Originally posted by -Pr-

I can't stand Rags Morales though.


I ...

... don't understand you, P.R...

Man.


Getting habituated to this board's word and image processing protocol is some undertaking.

Don't know how I managed to get section-quoting right the FIRST time I tried it ...



Ah well, back to business -- I originally promised to give some visual attention to the fights the original poster mentioned are absent from either respect thread ... ?

I'll start with the disclaimer that these should be thought of as snapshots, especially given that I've discovered I CAN'T perfectly predict the order imagery will appear in when I post several messages in a relatively short time span on KMC, even when I want to. Something happened to mess me up when I posted my very first thread (pre-Crisis Supergirl respect), something happened when I tried my 2nd, something happened when I tried a few days ago just to present shots of the Amazo fight. Oddly enough, the distortion is, or was, affected by whether I view this thread as a logged out "guest" to the forum, or whether I choose to log in and be the registered "bluewater__". In one case I got 2 scans of the same scene, one out of order. In the other I got the proper sequence of events.

Whatever. Not a concern here, anyway. Snapshots these are, then, they can all be verified by checking the actual comic or comics, which I'll give reference information to at the end of each series, and wherever I've made any changes to suit the family atmosphere of this forum, like editing out bad language, violence unsuitable for children, etcetera, I'll make note of that, too.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The one we actually got in the books? Not so much.
I like several versions of pantsed Wonder Woman outfits I've been seeing for the past year or so, though, even to the advertisement for "Drawing the Line" featured as the visual of this particular post.



Again, I have NO complaint about a well-rendered, tasteful, and healthy female physique. It is only what even you yourself admitted was excessive that I object to. A woman's dress should make sense. An action hero's actions should make sense. They should not be there JUST to serve as fanservice. Especially not if she were designed to promote something good for young people by her creator.





I ...

... don't understand you, P.R...

that picture isn't by rags morales ; that's ivan reis.

honestly, yeah, i guess i can see why you feel the way you do. Wonder Woman's costume isn't exactly screaming "strong, independent woman". TBH, as a man, i guess I just appreciate that when a good artist draws her in that costume, she looks hot, so there is that part of it, and sadly, sex sells.

i'm not saying it's right, though. far from it.

I just hope that, even when a writer does have to deal with her in that costume, he writes a wonder woman who doesn't care about the costume she wears; she lets her actions and her personality show us why she's considered such a strong woman.

that whole "not giving a ****" attitude.

though given what her creator thought of her, i'm not sure he really saw her as a role model for young girls.

So, Sacrifice, as a great number of people are probably already familiar, is, arguably, THE penultimate battle between Wonder Woman and Superman of the past 10 years.

The premise is that Justice League associate Max Lord somehow gains near complete mental control over the Man of Steel after years of practice. How, I don't know. Before this story I don't recall so much as one mention that he had mental powers of that sort; I'd be surprised if any author before "Sacrifice" did, either.

No matter. Control he does gain, and, in Lord's convoluted frame of mind, this is proof that Superheroes in general present a clear and present danger that must be eliminated. For it establishes that the mightiest among them can be controlled like so many chess pieces by evil men. Like, for example, Max with Superman.

Diana tries to reason with Max. It doesn't work. He tries to control HER. Doesn't work. Diana tells him it's because she sees with a god's eyes, so she's not vulnerable to that type of illusion.
Okay, then. Max makes Superman see Diana as Doomsday. Convincingly. Then, even more convincingly, he makes "Doomsday" murder Superman's beloved wife, Lois Lane, in plain view.
And laugh about it.

In the span of a few seconds, then, Diana finds herself being simultaneously choked, depressurized, and burned alive as Superman acts with incredibly swift resolve to murder Doomsday by throttling him to death and perhaps even laser Doomsday's face in two, as he throws the monster into the sun. Still reeling from the suddenness and violence of it all, Diana manages to stop the assault by putting her fingers into Superman's still burning eyes. It buys her a moment to compose herself and instantly realize what was in the lead-shielded box Bruce (Batman) gave her in the previous chapter. Kryptonite. Bruce's green kryptonite ring. Unfortunately, by this time she and Kal are literally dancing on the sun's surface, which, if this issue has ANY respect for Superman history and continuity, is strengthening him beyond ordinary bounds. Superman hits Wonder Woman with such a haymaker that it blasts her all the way back to planet Earth, where she hits with such force that it creates an impact crater. Fortunately, Diana is blessed, if not with Kryptonian level durability, god-granted resistance to traumatic injury and quick recovery ability. She recovers her senses and realizes what she must do ...

Sacrifice, visual snapshots, 2

Sacrifice. Superman versus Wonder Woman. Snapshots. 3

Sacrifice. Wonder Woman versus Superman. Snapshot. 4

Sacrifice. Superman versus Wonder Woman. Snapshot 5.

Sacrifice. Endgame.

Sacrifice. Endgame. Shot 2.

Sacrifice. Endgame. Shot 3.



Note.

Compared to the comic, a panel is missing between this scene and the previous one. That scene is one that establishes Diana needs no sword to cut Superman, severely. It convincingly demonstrates to Max, in fact, if not to Superman fans, that Diana could have killed Superman at almost anytime back on Earth -- IF that was her goal. And, presumably, that, at that point, Max would have no pawn to protect himself from her justifiable rage over being forced to kill her friend.

So, Max agrees.

In the comic, Max says "Fine -- ", followed by more dialogue on the following page. I let this end with an ellipse and exclamation because I originally had this prepared for another forum where "Fair Use" was even wiser to adhere to (stricter scan per comic limits).

And I wanted a sense of completion to the selection free of the most jarring of the violence featured in the magazine. Note that, because selections are posted as thumbnails for all registered users on KMC, it would be utterly useless for me to provide a warning against viewing the material displayed, albeit smaller than standard size, only an inch or so below.

In the actual comic, though, Superman is in this pose because he's trying to stem the damage from a severe cut to the throat, trying to give his enhanced healing power opportunity to sustain him the next few moments.

Might as well continue with the 2nd engagement mentioned by people at the beginning of this thread: Superman v Diana in the storyline "For Tomorrow". I'm nebulous on exactly what happens in the complete arc, which spans many issues, but the gist of it seems to be that Superman helplessly experiences the complete disappearance of Lois Lane and many others, and is apparently blamed for attracting the attention that caused the occurence, as he is unfairly blamed for many crazies harming others to get at him, historically, I suppose. The twist is that, somehow, a machine, apparently called "The Vanishing", which presumably was at least somewhat responsible for the occurence to begin with, has the ability to bring all those people back, alive and well.
Problem is, Superman is apparently the only one who believes the machine can be made to that. Even his close friends, Wonder Woman included, believes that the Vanishing KILLED all those disappeared people, and will, in all likelihood, result in Superman's death if HE tries to use the machine to trace or restore those victims. THAT is why Wonder Woman is intervening in this case. She is actually trying to save Superman's life, and determines that either destroying the machine, or getting Superman to back down forever from any plan of using the hellish device is the most sensible, the only, true recourse.

Obviously, those visions AREN'T reconcilable, since, in the mind of either hero, the course of the other will result in likely permanent death for a friend or many friends ...

For Tomorrow. Snapshot 2

For Tomorrow, 3.

For Tomorrow, 4.

For Tomorrow, 5

For Tomorrow, 6

Going.

Going.


And gone.



I like the last 3 scenes I showed for the kind of leg strength they show Diana possesses; not so much the helicopter pilot's expletive in the original comic.

I edited THAT to an ellipse instead of a swear word, in keeping with KMC's family-friendly format...


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Storyline: "For Tomorrow."
Source: Superman #211, Volume 2
Writer: Brian Azzarello
Penciller: Jim Lee
Date: January 2005
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman_Vol_2_211

Hmm.

I should also give reference information for the Max Lord-initiated fight shown the previous page.

Which is as follows:



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Storyline: "Sacrifice"
Source: Wonder Woman #219, Volume 2
Writer: Greg Rucka
Pencillers: Tom Derenick, Georges Jeanty, Karl Kerschl, David Lopez, & Rags Morales
Date: September 2005
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Wonder_Woman_Vol_2_219

^If you want to argue about this topic, you can bump the thread on vs forums. No need to spam this thread.

Abhi?


This thread has been around for more than 2 YEARS.

It is ENTITLED "Superman versus Wonder Woman".

The biggest COMPLAINT of the starting posters is that the 2 most FAMOUS post-Crisis fights between these two are NOT in the respect threads of either character,
let alone any numerous other Diana/Clark fights throughout DC history.

One person finally comes and begins providing material to CORRECT misperceptions like "Diana was bloodlusted", to give only one example,
which you can find on page 1, which she wasn't, and that it was Superman that was enraged and out of control in Sacrifice, as even the Moderator of this forum himself has stated,



yet pointing this out, and visually backing up these counters here,

again, some of which were mentioned by posters specifically STATING they wished someone could provide issue numbers or visuals and/or had someone to remember where these things took place

is "SPAM" in your mind?



In all seriousness, how exactly does THAT seem a reasonable and fair evaluation to you?

Here is a reason you should do this in a vs thread: more people will see it and you will get a discussion. The vs forum is far more active than this one. Honestly, I stopped reading whatever you were posting after I saw that it was you posting like 20 times in a row.

Hey, Emp.

I explained the necessity of numerous posts earlier on in this thread.
KMC, as an Image Host Provider (IHP), the only truly secure ihp FOR posting on KMC, at least based on my own personal experience, has a size limit of 250 kilobytes.

A very SMALL size limit that is.
I'm glad they have one at all, but it IS small.

Posting anything large enough to see from a comic page, therefore, means essentially posting individual panels from a comic.

I select carefully and cut out extraneous, offensive, or unnecessary material, but there is a bare minimum that has to be posted to really communicate anything.

Yet almost nothing has been off-topic, save answers to questions P.R. himself asked me. And, really, given that mine was the first update to this thread in roughly 2 years, I don't think a reasonable amount of discussion on related if technically off-topic material will do anything to violate the integrity of KMC.

On the other hand ...


Well, I've got to say I'm glad my first intro to KMC was via the respect threads. THOSE are generally done the way a fan thread should be done. Lots of happy focus on people's favorite characters, heavy on comic scans and celebratory feats, light on attacks or inappropriate behavior toward other posters.

The "Versus" threads ... ?

MY but I'm glad P.R. has seen fit to keep this thread clear of that forum these past 2 years ... ! Hope he does it another 2, at least.

I would suggest you peruse the boards as an unregistered "guest" periodically, though. This is definitely NOT an untrafficked forum. Proof is in the "view" counts. This particular thread is somewhere around 4,900 so far. Started off around 4,000 when I began posting here, though. Most of that, presumably, for the 2 years the thread had been around. So in only 2 weeks or so, my posting has brought in several hundred viewers. I wouldn't consider that a bad thing.
It even brought in YOU! You had not posted before in this thread, after all. And, despite any talk of not reading what I posted, you felt involved enough to write in today.

And it is an interesting topic with equally interesting side-issues, after all. A place, as this has been so far, where people can CORDIALLY explore that subject certainly has ME intrigued ...

I was reading this thread before you posted. I only posted something because I feel that a better discussion would take place on the vs thread. There are plenty of people there that know a lot about Superman that don't come here. Also, just seems like you're beating your head against the wall when you keep posting and posting and posting and there are no responses. I am aware of why you have so many posts, but ususally people wait for a reply before they continue to keep hammering whatever point they are trying to make home. It just seems like you're having an argument that no one seems interested in here.

Also, I am not saying that this thread should be moved. I simply suggesting you start the same kind of thread in the vs forum and also keep this one going, and if they get merged at some point, so be it. Frankly, since you seem so hell bent on proving your point you'd think you'd like to prove it to a larger audience...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Q,

Regarding the OMAC fight, and the fact that Wonder Woman was injured and still doing better than most DC Heroes ...?

I agree. In fact, I was going to point out not only that, but the fact that Diana spent most of that preceeding fight (Sacrifice) battling a Superman who was NOT at his normal levels, nor even at "holding back" levels, nor even at "murderously enraged" levels.

He was SUNCHARGED and murderously enraged, and not holding back, and using every primal resource available to scour "Doomsday" off the face of the Earth. Effectively double or triple-boosted Superman was what Diana was facing.


Really??? a triple boosted Superman?

Here is SM before the so called "boost" subduing Diana

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW.jpg

Here Maxwell releases WW from SM's grip

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW2.jpg

Here is the starting of it and please play close attention to the panels

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW3.jpg

She can barely react when she knows what is coming

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW4.jpg

Still in atmosphere she cannot break his choke

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW5.jpg

Already on space with the sun, if she was unable to break on earth, here it will be even harder, but she has that piece of Kryptonite so the "amp" gets null and the box of K is already open and facing SM so He is getting the radiation. She breaks free by pain complaince to SM's eyes.

NOTE: Please note here the SUN is on WW back and Superman is about to punch Diana into the sun and finish this fight for good, at the speed this fight is taking place, this punch is coming fast


http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW6.jpg

OH WAIT! THE SUN MOVED OUT OF THE WAY!!!

Why? because SM wanted DD to suffer, a mental handicap sm that is. Fight should have ended right there.
Sm punching Diana into the Sun, but no, We can't kill Diana she has to save the day. This whole fight lasted less than 2 minutes, this near sun kill is happening with in a minute of the start of the fight. A MINUTE!!!

Diana has already a broken wrist and 3rd degree burns on her face, what does SM has?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW7.jpg

Then the rest of the fight goes on BACK on earth because of the Sun moving out of the way, yes literally the sun moved out of the way.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Going.

Going.


And gone.



I like the last 3 scenes I showed for the kind of leg strength they show Diana possesses; not so much the helicopter pilot's expletive in the original comic.

I edited THAT to an ellipse instead of a swear word, in keeping with KMC's family-friendly format...


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Storyline: "For Tomorrow."
Source: Superman #211, Volume 2
Writer: Brian Azzarello
Penciller: Jim Lee
Date: January 2005
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman_Vol_2_211

You forgot this one

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/th_Pagesfrom230_Superman_v2_211_19_0001.jpg

Look at SM's CALM face!

Oh and believe me I know she is strong, very strong

The more I learn of "For Tomorrow", the more I dearly wish Brian Azzarello had a website or some center where fans could ask him questions. For I am almost certain I know where the inspiration for "The Vanishing" came from.
And that is the 1988 Dutch film of the exact same name.
Which was released here in America 2 years later.
And also given a remake.

Wikipedia has the following to say about the opening plot ...

" A Dutch couple, Rex Hofman (Gene Bervoets) and Saskia Wagter (Johanna ter Steege), are on a cycling holiday in France. As they are driving, Saskia tells Rex of a recurring dream that she had, in which she is drifting through space in a golden egg. She tells Rex that this time there was someone else in another golden egg, and that if they were to collide, everything would be over. She said that being stuck in the golden egg was terrifying loneliness. Their car runs out of gas and they are stranded inside a tunnel. They quarrel for a while, but make up and eventually get going again..."


There's much more to the story.
I'm debating creating a thread for that topic.

For that 1988 Dutch film is based on a 1984 Dutch novel.
And the name of that Dutch novel is The Golden Egg.

And what we see of the Vanishing globe Superman contemplates as Wonder Woman flashes her own egg-shaped shield is nearly exactly what readers of that novel would have seen on the cover:

The above was Wikipedia's summary of the "The Vanishing" FILM's plot.


Below, again be warned, it can prove equally disturbing to read,
is a synopsis of the original NOVEL's plot:



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

... Rex Hofman and Saskia Ehlvest, have traveled to France for a bicycling vacation. One night they have a minor argument but quickly make up, and Rex pulls over at a convenience store to refuel. He and Saskia bury coins to mark the spot, then she goes into the station to buy drinks and is never seen again.

Eight years later he is still haunted by her disappearance. He is now in a relationship with another woman named Lieneke, who is both sympathetic to, and frustrated by, the hold that Saskia's disappearance has over him. Despite her misgivings, however, they become engaged.

It is at this point that the reader is introduced to Raymond Lemorne, the man responsible for whatever happened to Saskia. The novella reveals that Lemorne once saved a young girl from drowning; having proven to himself that he is capable of great goodness, Raymond then begins to wonder if he is capable of an act of pure evil. He then comes up with an idea to murder someone in the most horrible fashion he can imagine. The book follows his meticulous preparations, and his long months of trying to find a suitable victim. This section of the novella ends with him abducting Saskia, but we are still not told what happens to her, though the book does provide clues.

At this point the narrative switches back to Rex. His obsession with discovering what happened to Saskia has grown to such an extreme that he has taken out a large loan to post advertisements in papers throughout France, hoping that someone might be able to provide him with information. His quest has also driven a wedge into his relationship with Lieneke. One night he is approached by Lemorne, who reveals that he is the one who abducted Saskia, and in a bizarre show of sympathy he offers to satisfy Rex's determination to discover her ultimate fate, but only if Rex agrees to undergo the same ordeal that Saskia suffered.

After a long discussion between the two men, Rex agrees to Lemorne's proposal, and proceeds to drink a cup of coffee laced with a sedative. He awakens sometime later to find himself buried alive, and suffocates while imagining himself to be with Saskia.

In the epilogue it is revealed that several newspapers commented upon Rex's mysterious disappearance and its eerie similarity to Saskia's. Their fates are never discovered; it is as if they vanished from the face of the earth...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Egg

So, that was "The Vanishing".

Disturing to even read ABOUT, let alone actually read, but almost surely what inspired Azarrello when he was writing "For Tomorrow".

The parallels are too close to miss.

Globe imagery/mention precedes Vanishing in the novels and film.
Globe imagery precedes Vanishing in the comic.

Rex is obsessed with a "vanished" lover.
Superman is obsessed with a "vanished" lover.

Rex's wife quarrels with him, severely, over his obsession.
Wonder Woman quarrels with Superman, severely, over his obsession.

Rex, despite the protests of his wife/fiancee, succeeds in pursuing, and finding, the cause of his lover's disappearance, and "vanishes" himself.
Superman, despite the protests of Wonder Woman, succeeds in pursuing, and finding, the cause of HIS lover's disappearance, and "vanishes" himself.

Had I far more time, I would pin down and match the Superman #211 scenes that parallel those points exactly.

But it's no matter either way.


Salsa, the point is this, all the preceeding was just to corroborate:


The Superman/Wonder Woman encounter is not a traditional comicbook battle. Superman's face is calm because he has reconciled himself with the very real possibility of death. For all anyone knows, The Vanishing resulted in the DEATH of the million or so people disappeared, including Lois Lane. Wonder Woman sees that Superman's obsession with trying to bring Lois and those people back, will, in all likelihood, lead to his OWN death. She even CALLS it suicide, and Superman ACKNOWLEDGES as much in the comic several times. He has thought it over long and hard and prepared himself. He even calls a PRIEST in to make sure he has confessed any sins and is as pure as possible in the likely event that this DOES prove his ultimate demise. But he HAS to find out the truth; life without Lois has little meaning to him now, and if you'll search your comics you'll see THAT sentiment expressed in various ways, too.
He's already reconciled himself with death, concluding that is an acceptable risk over the alternative that he is living.
Why would a man in THAT frame of mind NOT be calm when explaining that to his friend? He's already crossed the point of no return in HIS mind...

Originally posted by biensalsa
Really??? a triple boosted Superman?

Here is SM before the so called "boost" subduing Diana

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW.jpg

Here Maxwell releases WW from SM's grip

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW2.jpg

Here is the starting of it and please play close attention to the panels

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW3.jpg

She can barely react when she knows what is coming

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW4.jpg

Still in atmosphere she cannot break his choke

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW5.jpg

Already on space with the sun, if she was unable to break on earth, here it will be even harder, but she has that piece of Kryptonite so the "amp" gets null and the box of K is already open and facing SM so He is getting the radiation. She breaks free by pain complaince to SM's eyes.

NOTE: Please note here the SUN is on WW back and Superman is about to punch Diana into the sun and finish this fight for good, at the speed this fight is taking place, this punch is coming fast


http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW6.jpg

OH WAIT! THE SUN MOVED OUT OF THE WAY!!!

Why? because SM wanted DD to suffer, a mental handicap sm that is. Fight should have ended right there.
Sm punching Diana into the Sun, but no, We can't kill Diana she has to save the day. This whole fight lasted less than 2 minutes, this near sun kill is happening with in a minute of the start of the fight. A MINUTE!!!

Diana has already a broken wrist and 3rd degree burns on her face, what does SM has?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW7.jpg

Then the rest of the fight goes on BACK on earth because of the Sun moving out of the way, yes literally the sun moved out of the way.
OWNED.

Progress?

Abhi, are you NOW willing to say that Superman and Wonder Woman were at the Sun, and not Venus, in Wonder Woman #219?

Even as Wonder Woman TOLD us readers that the Sun was the intended destination?

Even as is SHOWN readers in no fewer than 6 panels?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Progress?

Abhi, are you NOW willing to say that Superman and Wonder Woman were at the Sun, and not Venus, in Wonder Woman #219?

Even as Wonder Woman TOLD us readers that the Sun was the intended destination?

Even as is SHOWN readers in no fewer than 6 panels?

I haven't read all of your post in this topic, but I'm getting the impression that You are saying WW is almost as powerful as Superman or maybe even more.

I have seen this kind of arguments before and it actually gave me great respect for WW, though I still do not believe she is on par of SM on the long run.

Based on what I have seen, she is very powerful and I will guess between the 5 most powerful heroes below skyfather's in DC comics.

If I were to make an analogy out of this situation in physical raw strength I will say that Wonder Woman is a 9 or 10 out 10 in raw strength level, where Superman is an 11 out of 10.

And this is the same way I see Hulk's raw strength compared to that of Thor's.

I will advice you, to post your scans on a photobucket account. I have talked with a WW fan who seems to know a lot about WW and she created a respect thread on hero chat, but you are not allowed to see respect threads if you do not have an account in there, also she did tend to leave context out and some feats were a little but miss interpreted or exagerated a bit. but We all can make some mistakes, her name is fangirl101 I think.

Originally posted by biensalsa
I haven't read all of your post in this topic, but I'm getting the impression that You are saying WW is almost as powerful as Superman or maybe even more.


I suppose that depends on how you quantify "power", which I really haven't been concerned with, up to OR including now.

"Power" is too big to address. If anything, I would probably say Superman is in possession of greater power, which would be COMPLETELY misleading were someone to take that as an answer of who I think is actually physically stronger between the two, as seems YOU want to know.

The overriding fact of Rucka's "Sacrifice", for example, is that Diana makes Max Lord stand down. Because she proves to HIM, at least, that, IF the fight does come down to her life or Kal's, it WILL be Kal's; she has been doing everything she can to stop Kal WITHOUT killing him to that point, but she can and will do that if absolutely necessary.

And ... then what?

What will happen to Max with his "champion" (Superman) dead facing the woman he forced into killing her own friend?

Once the fight is back on Earth, the battle is Wonder Woman's to lose in the absolute papers, scissors, rocks, sense. She has the resources to take Superman out at any time after the ear clap.
Actually, she has the power to take him out once she's gotten the opening FOR the ear clap. That tiara toss could have been used in place of it, and not to wound, but to kill.

But ... is that greater power?
The ability to win that fight at any point from then on?

A lot of fans would define that as such.
I'm not so sure I would.

Originally posted by biensalsa
I still do not believe she is on par of SM on the long run.


I think Superman is inherently physically suited to respond to a wider array of challenges than Wonder Woman, even to relatively mundane ones like stopping bank robbers.

That much has perhaps always been true.

For instance, with the bank robbers, Superman has vision that enables him to see them from a distance and note their hiding places and any weaponry they may have. Can Wonder Woman do this?

If they open fire, could either hero simply stand and act as a shield for innocents? Or would one require other equipment?

Yet would bank robbers prove a true challenge for either outside of hostages?

How much time would either need to simply "divine wind" their way through the bank at superspeed, disarm and/or knockout and/or capture the robbers, and blithely proceed about their day?

Originally posted by biensalsa

Based on what I have seen, she is very powerful and I will guess between the 5 most powerful heroes below skyfather's in DC comics.



I am not sure exactly what you mean by "skyfather", though I think I have some idea. Beings that would be worshipped as gods or goddesses in ancient times? And, in Marvel history or parallel world history actually were? I'm guessing, for instance, that you would have Odin as a skyfather. I'm not sure you would have Thor as one, though the case can be made, as he is historically considered a "thunder god" and rain-bringer, besides being a Kryptonian level strongman. Conversely, I'm certain you would NOT apply the term to Storm of the X-men, regardless of how much weather she controls; she is not physically capable of operating on Superman level and above.

Am interested to see your 5 choices.

Originally posted by biensalsa

If I were to make an analogy out of this situation in physical raw strength I will say that Wonder Woman is a 9 or 10 out 10 in raw strength level, where Superman is an 11 out of 10.


You got the "11" from Superman's quote in JLA/Avengers, right?

Here I would sharply disagree.

Were I to make such a list, it would be SOMEWHAT as follows:

11. Superboy Prime, circa 2005
10. Kingdom Come Superman
9. Wonder Woman
8. Captain Marvel/Superman
7. DC Hercules


Note that there would be a bunch of ".3", ".5" or other decimal differences between the two, not necessarily whole number differences.

And corrections have to be made for Character Induced Limitations, too, of course. For instance, Captain Marvel sometimes "shares" the power of Shazam with his friend Freddy and/or his sister Mary.
I seem to remember him nearly stalemating Superman in an armwrestling match but Supes finally getting him because he was using "split" power all along, not his full power. If so, this implies that Captain Marvel is actually stronger than Superman under solo conditions. Interestingly, this would seem to be borne out if you consider that, Kingdom Come Superman, for quite a while, part of mainstream canon, and far stronger than our own Superman, circa 2005-2011, was matched BY Captain Marvel. How did THAT happen if he is "really" only the match of 2005-2011 Superman?

At any rate, there are numerous cases like this where things simply do not make much sense if going by where DC fans traditionally like to place characters, but make almost perfect sense using a ranking like mine above.

Originally posted by biensalsa

If I were to make an analogy out of this situation in physical raw strength I will say that Wonder Woman is a 9 or 10 out 10 in raw strength level, where Superman is an 11 out of 10.

And this is the same way I see Hulk's raw strength compared to that of Thor's.



I don't quite understand you here.

Are you saying you believe Thor is actually a little stronger than Hulk at standard "starting" levels,
but that Hulk gradually gets stronger than Thor in any given encounter, owing to his "anger=strength" power?

Don't know what standard you're using for your Superman/Wonder Woman comparison, either.

Mine is more or less this, in regards to physical strength: Unifying just about EVERY thing I know about either character, their background, how their powers work, their character limitations, plot limitations, overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights, competitions against each other and other mutual foes and powerful beings, origins, and basic concepts, Wonder Woman 2003-2011 would win an armwrestling match against Superman, and nearly any other contest that involved pure physical strength.

Note that one primary reason for the dates are that I did not start forming a significant DC reading catalogue until around 2004.

Most of my experience of either Superman or Wonder Woman is from those dates or thereabouts. Wonder Woman pre-2003 or so may very well be a far less impressive being than the one we've had the past decade.

I don't mean to derail this convo, which I think should stay here as this seems to be going beyond a simple "who'd win" type scenario, but what instances are you using to justify Wonder Woman (circa 2003-2011) beating Superman in an arm wrestling match or any other contest involving physical strength?

I mean, I've read Wonder Woman since George Perez took over all the way up to the beginning of the DCnU reboot and I'm really not sure where this line of thought is coming from at all and its entirely possibly I missed a pertinent post on your point.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I suppose that depends on how you quantify "power", which I really haven't been concerned with, up to OR including now.

"Power" is too big to address. If anything, I would probably say Superman is in possession of greater power, which would be COMPLETELY misleading were someone to take that as an answer of who I think is actually physically stronger between the two, as seems YOU want to know.

The overriding fact of Rucka's "Sacrifice", for example, is that Diana makes Max Lord stand down. Because she proves to HIM, at least, that, IF the fight does come down to her life or Kal's, it WILL be Kal's; she has been doing everything she can to stop Kal WITHOUT killing him to that point, but she can and will do that if absolutely necessary.

And ... then what?

What will happen to Max with his "champion" (Superman) dead facing the woman he forced into killing her own friend?

Once the fight is back on Earth, the battle is Wonder Woman's to lose in the absolute papers, scissors, rocks, sense. She has the resources to take Superman out at any time after the ear clap.
Actually, she has the power to take him out once she's gotten the opening FOR the ear clap. That tiara toss could have been used in place of it, and not to wound, but to kill.

But ... is that greater power?
The ability to win that fight at any point from then on?

A lot of fans would define that as such.
I'm not so sure I would.

Before I even continue in here, let me inform you that English is not my primary language and this might be the cause of you having a hard time trying to understand my grammar.

Having said that, I also work a lot so there is not really too much time and effort I can put on debating, but I do it because it is a hobby that I enjoy very much.

Lastly and very important.

I will like to bring the Rucca example of Sacrifice

Please do explain to me why the sun moved out of the way when Clark was about to kill Diana in what it seems a fight that will have lasted under 1:20 sec

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/th_WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW-1.jpg

I will recognize that as a big PIS.

This to me is proof enough that Superman can defeat Diana in less than two minutes even in a handicapped match where his mind is getting clouded with visions of things that had never happened and will contribute on Superman's part for his lack of performance at the end of the fight, where a clouded mind cannot even see the right proportions of the enemy He is facing.

Besides naming the fact that Superman is called ALPHA ONE and Wonder Woman is called ALPHA TWO.

As to physically strong ranking of the heroes in "normal" levels of strength?

Well I base this on fights of common opponents and "physical" universe feats.

You see "physical" universe feats are very useful, why?

Let me explain this to you.

Captain America is more likely to survive a punch or a blast from Thanos with out having to explain to much.

If you were to have Captain America to survive inside the crushing force of a black hole, you will need to explain How such a feat can be accomplished by Captain America.

This is of course a an extreme example but it has it's uses.

At some points "physical" universe feats cannot be used specially in villains who has less feats than heroes.

So I try to take a balance approach between "physical" universe, vs fights and the occasional bios with out falling into the no limits fallacy to which so many people tend to fall into. Hence the tern "Superman level strength" does not really mean = to Superman.

For Example see how John , Orion and Wonder Woman fared against Doomsday and compare it to Superman

See How John fared against Titus and compare it to Superman

See how John, Orion, Superman and Wonder Woman fared against Synnar and you kind of get a clear picture that Superman level of strength is not equal for all those beings.

The same way I see Hulk's strength as I believe Hulk is potentially physically stronger than Thor, not Physically more durable, but physically stronger.

And yes I got the 11 reference from Busiek

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I've read Wonder Woman since George Perez took over all the way up to the beginning of the DCnU reboot and I'm really not sure where this line of thought is coming from at all and its entirely possibly I missed a pertinent post on your point.


George Perez is prior to the 2003-2011 period.
1986 or thereabouts, right?
Wonder Woman is a very different character under him, from what I can tell. From everything I can gather, Wonder Woman would have died were George Perez Sacrifice's author, and I'm not being facetious when I say that, either.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I don't mean to derail this convo, which I think should stay here as this seems to be going beyond a simple "who'd win" type scenario, but what instances are you using to justify Wonder Woman (circa 2003-2011) beating Superman in an arm wrestling match or any other contest involving physical strength?


With people like Abhilegend denying major elements even of well-known events like Sacrifice, it's fairly obvious some "derailing" HAS to take place in this thread, in order for outside material to be shown and prove even the points that make up the argument.

That will take some time; and what I can show and when will depend on my schedule in the period to come.
Don't feel you're being ignored if it takes awhile, though; I plan to illustrate every pertinent point I've suggested as a matter of course.

Originally posted by biensalsa
I will like to bring the Rucka example of Sacrifice

Please do explain to me why the sun moved out of the way when Clark was about to kill Diana in what it seems a fight that will have lasted under 1:20 sec

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/th_WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW-1.jpg

I will recognize that as a big PIS.

This to me is proof enough that Superman can defeat Diana in less than two minutes even in a handicapped match where his mind is getting clouded with visions of things that had never happened and will contribute on Superman's part for his lack of performance at the end of the fight, where a clouded mind cannot even see the right proportions of the enemy He is facing.





Salsa,

I might surprise you here:

I believe Sacrifice shows that Superman can defeat Diana in less than 2 minutes, too! Handicaps and all.

The only thing is, the same argument applies in reverse:
Sacrifice ALSO shows Diana can put down CLARK in less than 2 minutes, in under 2 SECONDS, in fact, IF "kill or be killed by delusional augmented Clark and me in my standard uniform" are the parameters.

For that is precisely what Diana SHOWS to Max Lord and DC readers with that final, glancing, tiara shot to Clark's throat.



Neither Superman nor Wonder Woman are invincible characters in regard to each other.

Originally posted by biensalsa

I will like to bring the Rucka example of Sacrifice

Please do explain to me why the sun moved out of the way when Clark was about to kill Diana in what it seems a fight that will have lasted under 1:20 sec

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/th_WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW-1.jpg

I will recognize that as a big PIS.




There are several levels on which this needs to be addressed.

I'll start with your first point, which is the implied argument:
"Artwork isn't a safe guide".




To an extent, you're right. Artwork isn't always a safe guide.

But when we're told by Diana what Clark's plan is
("he's going to take me to the sun and throw me in it!"

and then we're shown no less than SIX panels of these 2 struggling right at or in the sun's corona,

and then we're shown an element that would be disparate WITHOUT Clark being right at the sun (i.e. having strength enough to knock Diana from the sun back to Earth WHILE exposed to kryptonite, an element that has historically stopped him in his tracks),

AND, finally, told in an issue that chronologically follows this by the same author, in the immediate follow up storyline in the same series (Wonder Woman #221), and said character says after she has literally been bathed in MOLTEN METAL,
"I've experienced WORSE heat recently"

then there'd better be solid evidence for contradicting that before any reasonable person should believe Abhi's "Venus" argument.


And, no, time checks aren't enough in an era where writers took turns making Superman literally faster than light in one issue, and limited by it in another.


I'm short on time this morning. More on this particular point of yours later.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
George Perez is prior to the 2003-2011 period.
1986 or thereabouts, right?
Wonder Woman is a very different character under him, from what I can tell. From everything I can gather, Wonder Woman would have died were George Perez Sacrifice's author, and I'm not being facetious when I say that, either.

I'm aware of that, but as I've read Wonder Woman from Perez all the way up to JMS, so I'm drawing blanks on what instances you'd cite on WW beating Superman.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
With people like Abhilegend denying major elements even of well-known events like Sacrifice, it's fairly obvious some "derailing" HAS to take place in this thread, in order for outside material to be shown and prove even the points that make up the argument.

That will take some time; and what I can show and when will depend on my schedule in the period to come.
Don't feel you're being ignored if it takes awhile, though; I plan to illustrate every pertinent point I've suggested as a matter of course.

Cool. I look forward to seeing it.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Salsa,

I might surprise you here:

I believe Sacrifice shows that Superman can defeat Diana in less than 2 minutes, too! Handicaps and all.

The only thing is, the same argument applies in reverse:
Sacrifice ALSO shows Diana can put down CLARK in less than 2 minutes, in under 2 SECONDS, in fact, IF "kill or be killed by delusional augmented Clark and me in my standard uniform" are the parameters.

For that is precisely what Diana SHOWS to Max Lord and DC readers with that final, glancing, tiara shot to Clark's throat.

Glad We agree at least on the first part of your post. but...

Are You aware that Clark's HV is actually hotter than the sun?

Not only that but He can also shot them at super-speed in different angles with surgical precision

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/Power%20multitasking/ DOTNG3HEATVISIONINDIFFERENTANGLESATSUPERSPEEDHOWMA
NY4.jpg

So pardon me if I don't believe Diana can finish a fight under 2 seconds with out some mayor CIS

I believe Diana will be able to block most HV attacks from Clark, Don't get me wrong, but she will be occupied blocking all those HV attacks, I'm not even accounting the fact that He can move, hit and use cold breath.

So is really hard to believe Diana will win in under 2 seconds.

Even as the Tiara was thrown, Superman's jugular started to heal and mind this are Magical artifacts and Diana is basically a magical Golem, if any Diana always have an advantage over Superman, which Superman always compensate with raw power. Hence Alpha one.

One must really wonder why Maxwell decided to take Superman as Alpha One instead of Diana.

Also it will be really helpful to explain Why you consider Superman's "amp" but seem to forget the great disadvantage one must be when what You see is this

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/AOS643HALLUCINATIONVSWW6.jpg

but in reality is this

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW19.jpg

I guess basically the fact that You believe your opponent is 8'10" but in reality is 6'3" in heels, will also count as having some aiming off, don't you think?

And We also know Doomsday is fast but Wonder Woman fast? When You realize Doomsday is moving faster than normal at those speeds is too late. Don't you agree?

Some mayor disadvantages on Superman's part, even with the so called amp which was canceled by the K exposure btw.


I Neither Superman nor Wonder Woman are invincible characters in regard to each other.

Agree

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
There are several levels on which this needs to be addressed.

I'll start with your first point, which is the implied argument:
"Artwork isn't a safe guide".




To an extent, you're right. Artwork isn't always a safe guide.

But when we're told by Diana what Clark's plan is
("he's going to take me to the sun and throw me in it!"

and then we're shown no less than SIX panels of these 2 struggling right at or in the sun's corona.


??? the implied argument was not that artwork isn't always a safe guide, not at least in this instance.

The implied argument is that The Sun moved out of Diana's way and it was replaced by earth! As a huge bad writing or PIS to make the plot interesting because "We cannot kill Diana in under 1:20 seconds, she needs to save the day"

The argument was that Clark wanted to kill Doomsday by tossing him into the sun but right at the killing blow the sun moved out of the way and Doomsday went back to earth, why??? Doomsday will have a huge disadvantage in space, but the sun moves out of the way and Superman stupidly decides to send Doomsday back to earth.

If that is not mayor PIS I do not know what it is.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
and then we're shown an element that would be disparate WITHOUT Clark being right at the sun (i.e. having strength enough to knock Diana from the sun back to Earth WHILE exposed to kryptonite, an element that has historically stopped him in his tracks),

You need to read some Superman comics

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20KRYPTONITE/supermanbatman008VSKPOWEREDARMOR6.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20KRYPTONITE/supermanbatman048VSDOOMSDAYCLONEWITHK.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20KRYPTONITE/week21-1995-supes_mos-45stopsatrainwhilekblasted2.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20KRYPTONITE/manofsteel101POISONEDWITHK7.jpg

and so on

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
AND, finally, told in an issue that chronologically follows this by the same author, in the immediate follow up storyline in the same series (Wonder Woman #221), and said character says after she has literally been bathed in MOLTEN METAL,
"I've experienced WORSE heat recently"

I'm not sure what your point here is, but We know she was at the Sun's corona and We know she was about to be inside the sun, until the sun dodged Diana.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
then there'd better be solid evidence for contradicting that before any reasonable person should believe Abhi's "Venus" argument.

I have not read it and I should go back and read it.


Originally posted by bluewaterrider
And, no, time checks aren't enough in an era where writers took turns making Superman literally faster than light in one issue, and limited by it in another.

OK, So this fight was stated to last 1 minute and 54 seconds and at this time Superman and Diana are particularly more powerful than at their Byrne and Perez era, So they are actually moving really fast.


Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'm short on time this morning. More on this particular point of yours later.

I'm short of time a lot too, but I'll keep checking around

I think I finally get what You are trying to show.

That Wonder Woman is somehow overshadow by Superman even though You feel she is more powerful than Clark and that she does not get the respect she should.

Well I think that is WHY there is respect threads, so you can educate people about your favorite character.

I know She is to be respected but that is ME.

If you want to educate people about Diana, You have to do it yourself or teach other people about Diana.

As I told you, there is this WW fan "fangirl101" who I believe was banned from here for socking. I believe she knows what she is talking about when it comes to WW but sadly forgets about context.

but You won't achieve your goal until you give your knowledge to someone else as easy as that.

wonderwoman is flat out written POORLY vs superman. She should fair better then she has in the past. Alot better

superman 7/3

Originally posted by zeel
wonderwoman is ... written POORLY vs superman.
She should better then she has in the past. A LOT better.



Indeed.

Diana's actions seem so contrived at times as to remind me of old Kung Fu episodes ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gASY7Lj5GPQ
"You will have arrived when you can snatch this kryptonite from my hand ..."

Originally posted by zeel
wonderwoman is flat out written POORLY vs superman. She should fair better then she has in the past. Alot better

superman 7/3

To be fair, they haven't exactly shown Superman's best side either.

Originally posted by biensalsa
??? the implied argument was not that artwork isn't always a safe guide, not at least in this instance.

The implied argument is that The Sun moved out of Diana's way and it was replaced by earth! As a huge bad writing or PIS to make the plot interesting because "We cannot kill Diana in under 1:20 seconds, she needs to save the day"

The argument was that Clark wanted to kill Doomsday by tossing him into the sun but right at the killing blow the sun moved out of the way and Doomsday went back to earth, why??? Doomsday will have a huge disadvantage in space, but the sun moves out of the way and Superman stupidly decides to send Doomsday back to earth.

If that is not mayor PIS I do not know what it is.





Salsa,

I appreciate the time you've spent here.
You've taken the time to present your own viewpoint with sources and visual corroboration AND taken time to try to understand me, all without making any true direct attack on me.

Extremely rare in any debate thread I've been in, to say the least.
Again, much appreciated.


You keep asking about the haymaker scene in Sacrifice so I'll give you the truest and most complete answer I can.

I regard something as "Plot Induced Stupidity (PIS)" on a WRITER's part when I believe the writer is responsible for what we see AND that the action makes no sense APART from moving a story forward.

I don't think Wonder Woman #219 truly fails either point as far as Greg Rucka is concerned.


Let's be honest to admit: We ARE discussing works that are entirely fictional. The characters do not exist. They are not taking the actions we are debating. They never did and never will. They do not have true history. There is little if any true continuity. What we see is largely determined by company thoughts on what will sell to the widest range of people and whatever few loyalties employees hold to their peers, the creators before them, and/or their creative work(s).
Also, to some extent, the zeitgeist of the day, varying according to the era and decade.

All of the aforementioned is what "really" determines what happens in a comic. I suppose that is what is termed "fourth wall". In general, the most successful fiction works make a person forget nearly everything mentioned above, and the story makes sense according to it's own semblance of internal logic.

I mention this because there comes a point where, being pure fiction, any story, no matter how well-written, is going to fall apart. It's not going to hold up to argumentation because arguments depend on facts, and, in comics, there AREN'T really any -- once you take it far enough. The challenge, of course, is to see how far you can go until you approach that point!

Needed to say that, now, assuming my Internet service holds, let's begin ...

The first thing I must mention is that "Sacrifice" is not a truly original story. Diana versus Clark, one combatant knocked out with a single punch following a sudden attack, said knockout victim waking up after many miles have been traversed unconscious, brought back by heat of re-entry ... ?

That did not originally happen in the pages of Sacrifice.

It happened more than 20 years earlier, in the pages of Justice League of America, Volume 1, #207. Diana in this instance was Diana of Themyscira, no doubt, but she was Diana of Themyscira of EARTH-3.
And she was not called Wonder Woman.
Our favorite amazon was called "Superwoman" instead.
She wasn't a hero, but a villain.

Unlike in Wonder Woman v2 #219, moreover, Diana wasn't on the receiving end of the knockout. She GAVE it. And not merely to a mountain moving being like New Millenium (2003-2011) Superman, no matter HOW many boosts to ability he enjoyed, but to the powerfully casual WORLD-moving Bronze Age Superman, who would probably outrank even 2005's Superboy Prime in terms of physical strength and invulnerability.


This is the story that came first. This is the one I remember coming first. Having seen it and being duly impressed, I cannot now easily UNsee it, forget that it occurred, miss what it implies is, or was, the true relation between Diana and Clark in terms of physical strength, or be easily convinced that things should be otherwise without good evidence.

It's like looking at the Star Wars Prequels, especially the 2nd prequel, and trying to block out Empire Strikes Back from intruding into memory. Haven't been able to do the latter so far. Don't think I'll be able to do it well for Rucka's work, either.

Alright, having addressed this on the reflexive almost instinctual level, let's move to the comic's own logic.



Superman's entire apparent motivation from pages 3 through 6 is to see Doomsday put in the center of the Sun. There is no mention of wanting to make Doomsday "suffer" as your scan from some later magazine suggests. In Wonder Woman 219, Clark wants Doomsday dead, period. Rucka's own interview confirms that, P.R. may or may not be able to verify reading that himself on Newsarama.

Unfortunately, of course, "Doomsday" is actually Wonder Woman.
Who certainly does NOT want to be put in the center of the Sun.
Logic says that much heat isn't good for her and that she will avoid that heat every opportunity she has.
But she also wants to get her friend Superman under control, restored to normalcy, and back to Earth where he belongs, at the earliest opportunity. Sooner, even.
Only problem is her friend now has his hands around her throat, is screaming her name, burning her face, taking her through the airless vacuum of space, and, oh, man, but we're at the sun already ... ?
Well, said friend IS frequently faster than light during this era -- that makes SOME sense.


Relative positions then, are as follows:


Sun DianaClark -------Earth

Now, though, our 30-something heroine, as began to be shown in the last panel, succeeds in getting her hands in Superman's face. More precisely, succeeds in getting her fingers in Superman's eyes, even as Rucka told us she would in his interview, and Diana thus gets Superman to loosen his grip from her neck and turn away.

Note that this happens BEFORE Diana reaches behind her sculpted front torso to grab the box she now remembers Batman giving her.

Presumably, having gotten a little space, she's going to want to get a little bit AWAY from the Sun's heat?
At the least go off to the side?
Meanwhile, Superman's momentum should be taking him a little farther TOWARD the Sun?


So that their positions NOW will be as follows?


Sun Clark Diana -------Earth




... Sound reasonable?

But now recall that Diana's whole mission was to go after and retrieve her friend. You agreed they are now securely in the sun's outer layer or corona, how deep beyond that they may be we don't know, but you DID agree to corona, at least.

Regardless, if Diana did indeed, LOGICALLY, turn a bit aways as Clark continued on forward from his
Earth-to-Sun-in-a1-minute-flat-charge,
which had to have had a whole lot of velocity and momentum to get them from Earth to Sun that fast,
then the logical position for everything to be in, regardless of whatever the artist or artists do on the page, is:

Sun Clark <--Diana ----------Earth


with Diana moving TOWARD Clark, who is closest to and in front of the Sun, but both of them entered into the corona, and Diana 180 degrees from the EARTH and ready to be sent back there if repelled...

Now, at this point let's stop and acknowledge an appropriate consideration from TVTropes:

Reality is unreal.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic


You can look that link up if you like but the idea here is that creative staff at best offer portions of reality.
Really think about it. If you really WERE a being who could survive the 10,000 degree heat of the sun and were actually there AT the surface of this near endless globe-shaped sea of gases, already plunged into it's outer layer, what would you actually see?

I would think blinding, all-pervasive white light.
I can't even look at the sun at noon on a bright summer day without squinting. Shuts out everything if I try. Hurts even though it's literally 90 million MILES away from me.

So, again, what do you actually SEE, visible light spectrum when you are THERE? If you are an artist, what in the world do you DRAW to reflect that?

I searched through your photobucket account, as your albums prompt viewers to. Found Busiek's staff's take on how it might feel even to a powerful metahuman, in such a hostile environment ...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The first thing I must mention is that "Sacrifice" is not a truly original story. Diana versus Clark, one combatant knocked out with a single punch following a sudden attack, said knockout victim waking up after many miles have been traversed unconscious, brought back by heat of re-entry ... ?

That did not originally happen in the pages of Sacrifice.

It happened more than 20 years earlier, in the pages of Justice League of America, Volume 1, #207. Diana in this instance was Diana of Themyscira, no doubt, but she was Diana of Themyscira of EARTH-3.
And she was not called Wonder Woman.
Our favorite amazon was called "Superwoman" instead.
She wasn't a hero, but a villain.

Unlike in Wonder Woman v2 #219, moreover, Diana wasn't on the receiving end of the knockout. She GAVE it. And not merely to a mountain moving being like New Millenium (2003-2011) Superman, no matter HOW many boosts to ability he enjoyed, but to the powerfully casual WORLD-moving Bronze Age Superman, who would probably outrank even 2005's Superboy Prime in terms of physical strength and invulnerability.


This is the story that came first. This is the one I remember coming first. Having seen it and being duly impressed, I cannot now easily UNsee it, forget that it occurred, miss what it implies is, or was, the true relation between Diana and Clark in terms of physical strength, or be easily convinced that things should be otherwise without good evidence.

It's like looking at the Star Wars Prequels, especially the 2nd prequel, and trying to block out Empire Strikes Back from intruding into memory. Haven't been able to do the latter so far. Don't think I'll be able to do it well for Rucka's work, either.
She was amped by some magician in All star squadran IIRC. Superman even states that she shouldn't be that strong in your scan. As for the rest of your "argument", this was what happens when a non-biased writer like Greg rucka writes an all out superman

http://deliciouscake.wazdat.com/img/Superman_51.jpg_FinalCrisis_6_p34.jpg

Rucka was trying to push diana as being equal or more powerful than superman but he failed miserably. You want to know how she fares in a comic written by a superman biased writer

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/KingChow/comicbookish/supermankillingww.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/KingChow/comicbookish/supermankillingww2.jpg

Oh and I was wrong about them being near venus, big deal.

Superman in that mini-sun in Metropolis is probably a better approximation of what Diana is experiencing in Sacrifice than what Rags Morales and company actually drew. It reflects being IN those endless tangled branches of flame. For the sun is not like some solid barbell. It's not something you stand ON but gradually pass THROUGH.

"Smaller" gaseous giants like the planet Jupiter are beyond what anyone who thinks of planets as being something Earth-like and rocky would easily imagine.

But the Sun is that way, too.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Superman in that mini-sun in Metropolis is probably a better approximation of what Diana is experiencing in Sacrifice than what Rags Morales and company actually drew. It reflects being IN those endless tangled branches of flame. For the sun is not like some solid barbell. It's not something you stand ON but gradually pass THROUGH.

"Smaller" gaseous giants like the planet Jupiter are beyond what anyone who thinks of planets as being something Earth-like and rocky would easily imagine.

But the Sun is that way, too.
Two different writers. Superman has been thrown into a red sun and dive bombed on a red sun littered with kryptonite.

Oh and you want to know how other writers think about the strength and power difference between an all out superman and wonder woman

Here wonder woman, j'onn, supergirl, superboy, barda and steel can barely restrain him while he was fighting and pwning entire JLA for an extended time

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/ManOfTomorrow13f.jpg

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/ManOfTomorrow13g.jpg

Don't pretend to think that she is anywhere close to superman's strength portrayals

Here she admits power girl is "at least as strong as me" and this was in her own title.

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2010/89967654.jpg

Here is power girl vs superman with a crap load of heroes trying to subdue superman

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/pic016.jpg

The only time diana has looked good against superman is when either superman is being mind-controlled or a truly biased writer like rucka is trying to push her. I mean why else would a superman storyline end in a wonder woman title?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman has been ... dive bombed on a red sun littered with kryptonite.



Abhi, explain what you mean by this last post, please.

Also, if possible, what your source is for this.


For if it is Infinite Crisis, as I'm thinking it is, you aren't saying anything different from what I'm saying -- you've confused Mogo with a red sun, which it isn't, and Superman actually passed through BOTH red suns, whatever your 1st example is, and you've provided then 2 examples from different writers that suns are spheres you pass through, as I said just now.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Abhi, explain what you mean by this last post, please.

Also, if possible, what your source is for this.


For if it is Infinite Crisis, as I'm thinking it is, you aren't saying anything different from what I'm saying -- you've confused Mogo with a red sun, which it isn't, and Superman actually passed through BOTH red suns, whatever your 1st example is, and you've provided then 2 examples from different writers that suns are spheres you pass through, as I said just now.
Superman with Kal-L and SBP dive-bombed through a red sun and were seen in the sun. He was thrown in a red sun by eradicator once and tanked the destruction of krypton once too under a red sun.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The first thing I must mention is that "Sacrifice" is not a truly original story. Diana versus Clark, one combatant knocked out with a single punch following a sudden attack, said knockout victim waking up after many miles have been traversed unconscious, brought back by heat of re-entry ... ?

That did not originally happen in the pages of Sacrifice.

It happened more than 20 years earlier, in the pages of Justice League of America, Volume 1, #207. Diana in this instance was Diana of Themyscira, no doubt, but she was Diana of Themyscira of EARTH-3.
And she was not called Wonder Woman.
Our favorite amazon was called "Superwoman" instead.
She wasn't a hero, but a villain.

Unlike in Wonder Woman v2 #219, moreover, Diana wasn't on the receiving end of the knockout. She GAVE it. And not merely to a mountain moving being like New Millenium (2003-2011) Superman, no matter HOW many boosts to ability he enjoyed, but to the powerfully casual WORLD-moving Bronze Age Superman, who would probably outrank even 2005's Superboy Prime in terms of physical strength and invulnerability.


This is the story that came first. This is the one I remember coming first. Having seen it and being duly impressed, I cannot now easily UNsee it, forget that it occurred, miss what it implies is, or was, the true relation between Diana and Clark in terms of physical strength, or be easily convinced that things should be otherwise without good evidence.

It's like looking at the Star Wars Prequels, especially the 2nd prequel, and trying to block out Empire Strikes Back from intruding into memory. Haven't been able to do the latter so far. Don't think I'll be able to do it well for Rucka's work, either.
I just re-read those issues. Man, that was a cluster**** of a crossover.

First, superwoman blindsides superman as he wasn't looking at her at that point

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JusticeLeagueofAmerica207-04.jpg

Not to mention that they were all soloed by Alan scott and superwoman was koed by a very weak ultraman colliding with her.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JusticeLeagueofAmerica209-18.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JusticeLeagueofAmerica209-19.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JusticeLeagueofAmerica209-20.jpg

The same ultraman who was thrashed by a weakened superman when he was at full power by absorbing kryptonite rays

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/AllStarSquadron15-10.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/AllStarSquadron15-11.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/AllStarSquadron15-12.jpg

That was writers playing with powers of the characters to suit the story at its finest.

Could go either way.

Might as well address some of these ...

Originally posted by abhilegend
superwoman blindsides superman as he wasn't looking at her at that point


So we've gone from an INcorrect statement that Earth-3 Diana was magically amped by someone in All Star Squadron, to "hit him when he wasn't looking"? ...

Okay.

Originally posted by abhilegend
superwoman was koed by a very weak ultraman colliding with her.




The fallacy here is the idea that a being like Superman or Ultraman has to be a conscious figure in possession of full world-moving superstrength in order to knock someone out.

That's wrong.

All they needed to be in a lot of cases was an involuntary ULTRA hard-headed/hard-bodied missile hurled by someone ELSE with sufficient knockout force.


Strange it may sound, Abhi, and perhaps it even varied from writer to writer, just as it does today, but, superbeings typically did NOT lose the physical property of invulnerability AS a physical object when they were weakened.

For instance, Superman, splashed by liquid green kryptonite via the 1950s equivalent of a super-soaker water gun, World's Finest #94, Volume 1, not only required the kryptonite be washed off him for his own safety, but had to be caught by Batman and Robin TO PREVENT HIS INVULNERABLE PLUMMETING BODY FROM HURTING OTHERS.
Similarly, and many years later, though pre-Crisis, Superman's cousin Supergirl finds herself knocked out by the JLA's Black Canary during a mid-air fight...





----------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Superman Family #172, Volume 1
Writer: Elliot S. Maggin
Penciller: Curt Swan
Date: July 1975
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Enyalus
Superman has treated her (and her magical sword) like a common street whore on more than one occasion.

Really?

Originally posted by abhilegend
ultraman was thrashed by a weakened superman when he was at full power by absorbing kryptonite rays


If you want to go one better, in Ultraman's first appearance roughly 20 years prior, Justice League of America #29 or 30 if I remember right, Ultraman was stopped by placing him ON a kryptonite meteor.

Comicbook writers specialize in making many a character's strength into potential weakness.

Alright, enough of that for now.

BienSalsa deserves to have his question re-addressed.

Abhi, let me bullet point and be done with you for today:

-- Wonder Woman v2 #219 is Chapter 4 of Sacrifice. Chapter 3 of Sacrifice is Adventures of Superman #642. You showed Superman/Batman #15 where alternate Superman ambushes alternate Wonder Woman, and then, while she is groggy, has his way with her via her rope. Compare that to what Wonder Woman does with Superman, though. He manages to escape only by creating a diversion where Diana is forced to save Batman rather than continue fighting him. Then Superman flees. I can show you images of the scene tomorrow if you wish.

-- Your scans of Superman fighting the JLA, with all of them holding him? That's Superman:Man of Tomorrow, #13 (MOT13).
Circa 1999.

Besides being before the 2003-2011 period I outlined, or even the 2001-2011 period I suggested in my first post, Superman was amped beyond his normal levels by previous extreme sun exposure.

Because he had spent his time disposing of every nuke he could find on Earth into the Sun.
The Kryptonite Kyle Rayner exposes him to nearly takes him out. The only reason it doesn't? He had all that prior sun.
Superman SAYS as much himself on the following page.

I can show you scans of that admission as well as the early scenes of him disposing of nukes in the sun at the beginning of MOT13 on request. I was actually planning to use that issue as proof that Superman's resistance to kryptonite has more or less direct relation to how much sun he's had ... at least in most of the books I'VE read.


-- The "true" lighting versus artist portrayal argument isn't something I'm making up. Try to answer, IF you accept Salsa's premise that the sun is BEHIND Diana, why is her FRONT lit, when that should be shadowed, as Superman's front is?

About the only real answer you'll be able to come up with is that the position of the sun is NOT what the artist or artists are using to determine where light is coming from in their panels.
You can take another look at front-lit Wondy, supposedly with the sun at her back, by the way, by clicking my attached image from that previously shown panel.


-- Thank you for your retraction on Venus.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Alright, enough of that for now.

BienSalsa deserves to have his question re-addressed.

Abhi, let me bullet point and be done with you for today:

-- Wonder Woman v2 #219 is Chapter 4 of Sacrifice. Chapter 3 of Sacrifice is Adventures of Superman #642. You showed Superman/Batman #15 where alternate Superman ambushes alternate Wonder Woman, and then, while she is groggy, has his way with her via her rope. Compare that to what Wonder Woman does with Superman, though. He manages to escape only by creating a diversion where Diana is forced to save Batman rather than continue fighting him. Then Superman flees. I can show you images of the scene tomorrow if you wish.

-- Your scans of Superman fighting the JLA, with all of them holding him? That's Superman:Man of Tomorrow, #13 (MOT13).
Circa 1999.

Besides being before the 2003-2011 period I outlined, or even the 2001-2011 period I suggested in my first post, Superman was amped beyond his normal levels by previous extreme sun exposure.

Because he had spent his time disposing of every nuke he could find on Earth into the Sun.
The Kryptonite Kyle Rayner exposes him to nearly takes him out. The only reason it doesn't? He had all that prior sun.
Superman SAYS as much himself on the following page.

I can show you scans of that admission as well as the early scenes of him disposing of nukes in the sun at the beginning of MOT13 on request. I was actually planning to use that issue as proof that Superman's resistance to kryptonite has more or less direct relation to how much sun he's had ... at least in most of the books I'VE read.


-- The "true" lighting versus artist portrayal argument isn't something I'm making up. Try to answer, IF you accept Salsa's premise that the sun is BEHIND Diana, why is her FRONT lit, when that should be shadowed, as Superman's front is?

About the only real answer you'll be able to come up with is that the position of the sun is NOT what the artist or artists are using to determine where light is coming from in their panels.
You can take another look at front-lit Wondy, supposedly with the sun at her back, by the way, by clicking my attached image from that previously shown panel.


-- Thank you for your retraction on Venus.
It was not an alternate superman and an alternate diana. These were the same beings as post crisis superman and wonder woman, they were altered by Legion of supervillains's meddling of time. Did you forget who did all that, he just punched and shattered her fabled bracers and knocked her silly. What are you talking about.

It was noted that he was going to sun a lot but it wasn't a massive amp by any measure as shown in his fight with orion which as always was a stalemate. He also just recently took a blast from dominus which sends him from moon to earth crash landing. You haven't read much superman books apparently.

I didn't brought up that point so no comment. I just know it was a shitty story which made no sense and rucka wrote it just to wank his favorite character. You answer my question, why would a superman storyline ends in a wonder woman title when there is no reason to move it there?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Might as well address some of these ...



So we've gone from an INcorrect statement that Earth-3 Diana was magically amped by someone in All Star Squadron, to "hit him when he wasn't looking"? ...

Okay.




The fallacy here is the idea that a being like Superman or Ultraman has to be a conscious figure in possession of full world-moving superstrength in order to knock someone out.

That's wrong.

All they needed to be in a lot of cases was an involuntary ULTRA hard-headed/hard-bodied missile hurled by someone ELSE with sufficient knockout force.


Strange it may sound, Abhi, and perhaps it even varied from writer to writer, just as it does today, but, superbeings typically did NOT lose the physical property of invulnerability AS a physical object when they were weakened.

For instance, Superman, splashed by liquid green kryptonite via the 1950s equivalent of a super-soaker water gun, World's Finest #94, Volume 1, not only required the kryptonite be washed off him for his own safety, but had to be caught by Batman and Robin TO PREVENT HIS INVULNERABLE PLUMMETING BODY FROM HURTING OTHERS.
Similarly, and many years later, though pre-Crisis, Superman's cousin Supergirl finds herself knocked out by the JLA's Black Canary during a mid-air fight...





----------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Superman Family #172, Volume 1
Writer: Elliot S. Maggin
Penciller: Curt Swan
Date: July 1975
----------------------------------------------------------------------
She was amped in a previous comic called secret society of super villains as I gathered info otherwise its a total random thing which shouldn't have happened but in the same crossover dr fate who has a yellow costume had trouble breaking hal jordan's constructs and alan scott soloed CSA.

You're digging deep here. Ultraman and superman aren't interchangable. He was very weak as he stated as he at full power shrugged off dr fate's magical attacks.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If you want to go one better, in Ultraman's first appearance roughly 20 years prior, Justice League of America #29 or 30 if I remember right, Ultraman was stopped by placing him ON a kryptonite meteor.

Comicbook writers specialize in making many a character's strength into potential weakness.
Phail. That was a meteor sized kryptonite which overloaded his powers. This was a small piece of kryptonite. Nothing comparable.

BTW I liked how you convieniently skipped where diana admitted that karen was equal in strength to her.

Originally posted by roughrider
Really?

A vision? come on.

Originally posted by biensalsa
A vision? come on.

This one was no future vision. This actually happened.

Does someone still think Diana's magical weapons are laughed at by Superman?

Originally posted by roughrider
This one was no future vision. This actually happened.

Does someone still think Diana's magical weapons are laughed at by Superman?

Lol what is the point of that?

BTW You forgot the scan of him healing after that magical cut.

But come on, is not like Thor does not get cut by those.

The first scan that was put up with the JLA holding Superman, just want to let you all know that before this, he was feeding off of Sunlight...he was basically amped.

Originally posted by carver9
The first scan that was put up with the JLA holding Superman, just want to let you all know that before this, he was feeding off of Sunlight...he was basically amped.

So not amped He stalemates Orion and Amped he stalemates Orion?

Great logic there.

He had an extra boost, not denying that. but is not like He was 50% stronger.

And you forgot to mention about the OTHER scans! What is the logic behind those?

Originally posted by biensalsa
So not amped He stalemates Orion and Amped he stalemates Orion?

Great logic there.

He had an extra boost, not denying that. but is not like He was 50% stronger.

And you forgot to mention about the OTHER scans! What is the logic behind those?

Nothing wrong with the other scans, I just wanted to bring that up.

Also, I wouldn't give credit to the Wonder Woman scan either where he broke her neck since we don't know what changes that Wonder Woman went through.