Samus vs The Lich King

Phantom Miria

Originally posted by No End N Site
The only argument that peeps made for how LK could beat Pyron/Jedah was cuz he could freeze time for eternity. Why can't he do that to Samus, unless I was lied to about LK's powers and I ignorantly agreed wit out checkin' if the claims were true. Cuz I really didn't, I was just tired of arguin'...like always...

You are thinking about Nozdormu

Originally posted by Cyner
That seems to a rather empty claim considering how I just watched him die in a clip on youtube... maybe omniscient(as far as things on azeroth are concerned) or something but far far from omnipotent, especially considering how he was created by the burning legion and all.

You need to cease this ignorance at once!

1. Even Omnipotent characters has been defeated in fiction
2. How a character is created is virtually irrelevant to their powerset in the end
3. The Lich King did not die in that video. Only Arthas did
4. The closest things to Omniscience in Warcraft are Nozdormu, Highfather and purified Sargeras
5. It is stated by narrator that the Lich King is Omnipotent. You can not argue this. Something you KMC people need to do though, is to start using that thing that has been placed between your shoulders. It is there for a purpose.

Let me make this abundantly clear:

OMNIPOTENCE
DOES
NOT
MEAN
A
CHARACTER
CAN
DO
EVERYTHING

You are abusing the English language by saying Omnipotence equal all powers. Such is not the case. Those that claim that Omnipotence is precicely that, lack comprehension of the English language and insight on what being all-powerful actually can mean.

It is like saying that just because a character can regulate magic, he can control all magic arround him.

One says Omnipotence, you say "No way" Get a clue!

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Wasn't Lich King supposed to be omnipotent or did someone invent an overpowered version of him?

If by someone you mean Chris Metzen and Bob Fitch, then yes.

XanatosForever

So what does it mean to be omnipotent then, Miria?

Phantom Miria

Omnipotent by definition is the state of being more powerful than all. The Lich King is Omnipotent because he is the pinnacle of his power branch. Omnipotence is an artistic term that can best be described as power supreme.

There is a saying that goes "Omnipotent love", which is an alternate phrase for "Love conquers all"
Omnipotence is by definition an idea, not a state of power. Being Omnipotent means you are more potent than all. Again, it is an artistic word. It is not to be taken literally just like that, something most people do.

No End N Site

Originally posted by Phantom Miria
You are thinking about Nozdormu

No, they said this about LK. I'm sure of that.

Originally posted by Phantom Miria
You are thinking about Nozdormu

OMNIPOTENCE
DOES
NOT
MEAN
A
CHARACTER
CAN
DO
EVERYTHING

You are abusing the English language by saying Omnipotence equal all powers. Such is not the case. Those that claim that Omnipotence is precicely that, lack comprehension of the English language and insight on what being all-powerful actually can mean.

It is like saying that just because a character can regulate magic, he can control all magic arround him.

One says Omnipotence, you say "No way" Get a clue! Originally posted by Phantom Miria
Omnipotent by definition is the state of being more powerful than all. The Lich King is Omnipotent because he is the pinnacle of his power branch. Omnipotence is an artistic term that can best be described as power supreme.

There is a saying that goes "Omnipotent love", which is an alternate phrase for "Love conquers all"
Omnipotence is by definition an idea, not a state of power. Being Omnipotent means you are more potent than all. Again, it is an artistic word. It is not to be taken literally just like that, something most people do. So totally wanna have a bromance wit you now. I thought I was the only one who thought this

Phantom Miria

Originally posted by No End N Site
No, they said this about LK. I'm sure of that.

I have been here some time. I can not even remember a Lich King versus Pyron thread ever taking place. Only Nozdormu versus Pyron and it was debated stalemate because neither could kill the other.

No End N Site

Originally posted by Phantom Miria
I have been here some time. I can not even remember a Lich King versus Pyron thread ever taking place. Only Nozdormu versus Pyron and it was debated stalemate because neither could kill the other.
I don't think Jedah VS LK was the name of the topic but a few people along wit BT was tellin' me how powerful he was and it may have been off topic.

Cyner

Well they should have killed Ner'zhul also, I'm going to assume that the only reason he wasn't destroyed is because they need him to further the plot.

Anywayz, I was hoping this thread would draw out Q'Anilia because no one else seems to really know what the Lich King is capable of. Samus on the other hand trows fiar and doesn't afraid of adopting metroids.

Phantom Miria

No. The reason they did not destroy the Lich King along with Arthas, was because the Lich King is the only reason the Scourge does not utterly destroy the world. Without a Lich King, there will be no one holding the Scourge back from mindless destruction. It is not so much a plot necessity as it makes sense.

Yeah, give us Q'Anilia.

ScreamPaste

I put StarKiller in a thread with similar intentions, but it would appear she has disappeared into the fog of reality.

Hmmm. I'm curious if the Lich King can get through her suit.

Q'Anilia

I can see the Lich King winning this one easily, if personality is not included. The Lich King gives his opponents too many chances, which would be his downfall here. He would toy with Samus and she would take it home.

Exclude personality however, and Lich King would pretty much stomp her. She has no means of defeating him if he use his powers properly. The Lich King does not need to use his sword to claim the soul of another, as seen at multiple occasions. All theory aside, Samus has no means of protecting against the Lich King.

The Scenario

But then again, nothing can really get past Samus's shields without draining them first. I doubt the Lich King would be able to take her soul as long as the shields are up.

FinalAnswer

Why exactly would her shields stop the Lich King from taking her soul? :/

The Scenario

They've stopped similar things before.

1. Metroid life drain. It's canon that nothing in the physical realm is lost (blood, ATP, etc.) and yet without it, the victim dies. It is known as "life energy" and is known to be mystical. Samus' shields block this, Space Pirate shields don't.

2. Gorea mind rape. Gorea is a psychic shapeshifter who successfully mindraped an entire species into killing themselves to feed him. He did this to multiple planets at once, while also draining their life. At one point he also sent a telepathic message to another galaxy. Samus' shields block this, including his TK.

3. Bryyonian Magic. It's confirmed that the Mogenar was a blend of technology and magic to create the perfect golem. Several of its attacks ignore matter. Samus' shield blocks them.

4 Chozo Ghosts. After the Chozo ascended to a higher plane of existence but were ripped back to the material world, they were stuck in a state of dimensional flux, existential flux, and insanity. They flit in and out of existence. They ignore matter and Space Pirate shields. They cannot ignore Samus' shields.

5. Ing attack. The Ing are prone to using "transdimensional energy" to attack, meaning they attack between dimensions. They often open portals and tear holes in the fabric of space to attack. Some of them (Hunter Ing) are able to attack from another dimension altogether. Ing are also capable of spiritual possession, which is like demonic possession but worse. Samus' shield blocks all of this, Space Pirate shields do not.

6. Life Energy shield. Any way you look at it, Samus does not have a normal shield. Add to this that she fairly often often absorbs the life energy of creatures in order to recover shield energy. She can also recover missile energy this way. After Metroid Fusion, she can absorb energy directly from X-Parasites without use of her suit.

This good enough to protect her from the Lich King?

Q'Anilia

There is more to the Lich King than claiming souls. Being named the God of Death is not done for nothing, as Lich King literally control life and death on quite the significant level. He is the master of the realm of the dead, allowing him to quite literally grasp your very life and with nothing but processed thoughts and a gesture end it.

Stealing souls is the most frequent use of his powers, along with necromancy, but it is not his greatest showings.

IV1kDYvhwBA

When the Lich King first engage in battle with Tirion Fordring, he utterly immobilize him while processing his soul. While doing this, he also create a maelstrom of sheer force that send anyone nearing him flying as nothing but a passive addition to channeling Tirion's life energy.

I must be bold enough to claim the Lich King is more potent than a metroid. I must also add that none of the listed things seem able to protect Samus mind from him.

MooCowofJustice

Does Lich King have the speed necessary to hit Samus? Or does he have TK or something?

Phanteros

Originally posted by Phantom Miria
You are thinking about Nozdormu

You need to cease this ignorance at once!

1. Even Omnipotent characters has been defeated in fiction
2. How a character is created is virtually irrelevant to their powerset in the end
3. The Lich King did not die in that video. Only Arthas did
4. The closest things to Omniscience in Warcraft are Nozdormu, Highfather and purified Sargeras
5. It is stated by narrator that the Lich King is Omnipotent. You can not argue this. Something you KMC people need to do though, is to start using that thing that has been placed between your shoulders. It is there for a purpose.

Let me make this abundantly clear:

OMNIPOTENCE
DOES
NOT
MEAN
A
CHARACTER
CAN
DO
EVERYTHING

You are abusing the English language by saying Omnipotence equal all powers. Such is not the case. Those that claim that Omnipotence is precicely that, lack comprehension of the English language and insight on what being all-powerful actually can mean.

It is like saying that just because a character can regulate magic, he can control all magic arround him.

One says Omnipotence, you say "No way" Get a clue!

If by someone you mean Chris Metzen and Bob Fitch, then yes. Marvel and Dc uses the term differently and reffers to it as a being that does every thing.

The Scenario

Oh, yes, the guy who drained the souls of four planets at once while absorbing every weapon fired at him pales in comparison to the Mighty Lich King. Or the guy whose dimension will drain the life from anything in seconds, and attacks with the energy that keeps the dimension stable. Or the girl that bends entire planets to her will.

Gorea, The Emperor Ing, and Dark Samus, respectively. Hell, Ridley himself is a mountain buster and can rip a starship apart in melee. Mother Brain psychically controlled all of Zebes' wildlife. One of Samus' weakest weapon has enough energy in one shot to power the United States for a year.

I'm pretty sure the Lich King is out of his league here.

Phantom Miria

Originally posted by Phanteros
Marvel and Dc uses the term differently and reffers to it as a being that does every thing.

Yet several of their omnipotent characters has limits, and what DC and Marvel does is irrelevant to the definition of the word.

Phantom Miria

Originally posted by The Scenario
Oh, yes, the guy who drained the souls of four planets at once while absorbing every weapon fired at him pales in comparison to the Mighty Lich King. Or the guy whose dimension will drain the life from anything in seconds, and attacks with the energy that keeps the dimension stable. Or the girl that bends entire planets to her will.

Gorea, The Emperor Ing, and Dark Samus, respectively. Hell, Ridley himself is a mountain buster and can rip a starship apart in melee. Mother Brain psychically controlled all of Zebes' wildlife. One of Samus' weakest weapon has enough energy in one shot to power the United States for a year.

I'm pretty sure the Lich King is out of his league here.

If he is, it is not because of the things you listed in this post. Why? Two reasons:

1. Quantity does not make quality. Should here on KMC also be known as the "Jedah-Fallacy"
2. What the characters Samus has fought can bust is irrelevant.

Phanteros

Originally posted by Phantom Miria
Yet several of their omnipotent characters has limits, and what DC and Marvel does is irrelevant to the definition of the word.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence
http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/omnipotent

these refer to it as unlimited/complete powers

if you refering to the abtracts they are considered virtual or high level reality warpers

The Scenario

Originally posted by Phantom Miria
If he is, it is not because of the things you listed in this post. Why? Two reasons:

1. Quantity does not make quality.
2. What the characters Samus has fought can bust is irrelevant.

1. Quantity is a quality all its own. What I'm saying is, Gorea's psychic abilities span trillions of miles and drain trillions of creatures simultaneously. Doing so is invariably more difficult than draining one creature. One push up is easy. One trillion while being shot at is another matter entirely.

2. It establishes the durability of Samus' shield. If someone Samus fought can destroy something and the Lich King cannot, he lacks the physical power to seriously harm her. Magical power may or may not be different.

Phantom Miria

Originally posted by Phanteros
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence
http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/omnipotent

these refer to it as unlimited/complete powers

if you refering to the abtracts they are considered virtual or high level reality warpers

In your wikipedia link, the following is said:

Which completely enforce my point on what Omnipotence actually is. There are interpretations from that point and forward, but this quote is the absolute meaning of what Omnipotence is.

Originally posted by The Scenario
1. Quantity is a quality all its own. What I'm saying is, Gorea's psychic abilities span trillions of miles and drain trillions of creatures simultaneously. Doing so is invariably more difficult than draining one creature. One push up is easy. One trillion while being shot at is another matter entirely.

2. It establishes the durability of Samus' shield. If someone Samus fought can destroy something and the Lich King cannot, he lacks the physical power to seriously harm her. Magical power may or may not be different.

1. Quantity is a quality of its own, yes, but that does not make it quality absolute. Being able to drain multiple targets does not make your single target focus any more potent. How exactly do you know that she is able to exert any more power on one individual over a trillion? Do not say "It makes sense" because it does not.

2. We are not talking physical power, as far as I have come to understand. I do not think it has ever been brought up as a topic in favor of the Lich King. I also do not think anyone is foolish enough to argue it, since his greatest strength feat is breaking a metal axe.

The Scenario

I don't think that was point I was trying to make. Gorea affects trillions of beings in the same way. He does not necessarily affect a single individual differently, or with more power. The fact is that he drained several planets full of powerful psychic creatures cabable of defending themselves.

The point is not that Samus' shield blocked an arbitrarily "more powerful" drain attack, the fact is that she blocked it at all. There is what amounts to a wall between Samus and the Lich King, and that wall has blocked multiple things that are mystical in nature with very little damage to itself. You're going to have to prove that the Lich King can get past this wall when soul drains, telekineses, telepathy, dimensional attack, magical attack, and ghostly attack have failed to permanently harm it.

No End N Site

Originally posted by Phantom Miria
Quantity does not make quality. Should here on KMC also be known as the "Jedah-Fallacy"

This would be true for the most part. But in Jedah's case, the sheer power brought about by Quantity can not be ignored. If it were just a few dozen souls, understandable. But hundreds of billions upon hundreds of billions? There comes a point where quantity overwhelms quality. Jedah could steal every soul on earth hundreds of times over.

I would rather be the man with 1000 one dollar bills than the man with just two 100 dollar bills.

Wei Phoenix

Originally posted by Phanteros
Marvel and Dc uses the term differently and reffers to it as a being that does every thing. Originally posted by Phantom Miria
Yet several of their omnipotent characters has limits, and what DC and Marvel does is irrelevant to the definition of the word.

The only beings in Marvel that are omnipotent would be The One Above All, he's ominpotent/omniscent and omnipresent and he can do anything he wishes, he is literally above everything else in the entire MU Multiverse. Nothing else is omnipoten, in that universe, Omega Mutants are said to have unlimted potential but that's unlimited potential that deals with their power. Iceman is an Omega but that's only pertaining to his ice/water powers, he can't warp reality or set things on fire or whatever. Pre retcon Beyonder was also Omnipotent but he isn't anymore. As for DC The Presence is the only Tri-Omni person I can think of.

Cyner

MAKE MY THREAD... GROW!!! *throws spear into ground*

Ms.Marvel

from the moon?

Cyner

That's precisely the place I'm throwing it from! If the moon makes me mad though I'm gonna nuke it.

Q'Anilia

Originally posted by The Scenario
The point is not that Samus' shield blocked an arbitrarily "more powerful" drain attack, the fact is that she blocked it at all. There is what amounts to a wall between Samus and the Lich King, and that wall has blocked multiple things that are mystical in nature with very little damage to itself. You're going to have to prove that the Lich King can get past this wall when soul drains, telekineses, telepathy, dimensional attack, magical attack, and ghostly attack have failed to permanently harm it.

The only problem, which brings us both to the same problem, is that while Samus armor has protected her from everything so far, Lich King so far has ignored armor all-together. None of his moves has been restricted by powerful armor, shields against magic or even magic itself.

So while Samus armor has not yet been pierced, Lich King has not yet been hindered by armor. Which makes this argument stalemate, since claiming "Samus armor is stronger" or "Warcraft magic is stronger" is fallacious, because there is no way of proving either.

Burning thought

The powers that Samus' suit protected her against were magic right?

DarkC

Lich King takes a giant shit on Samus.

Spite threads really need to stop.

XanatosForever

Cyner wins an internet for the Rita Repulsa reference. Mighy Morphin' for the win. yes

The Scenario

Originally posted by DarkC

Spite threads really need to stop.

I know, right? Samus could vaporize him at any time. Sort of unfair.

menokokoro

Originally posted by Cyner
That seems to a rather empty claim considering how I just watched him die in a clip on youtube... maybe omniscient(as far as things on azeroth are concerned) or something but far far from omnipotent, especially considering how he was created by the burning legion and all. well actually it was the ghosts that he held in his sword that "killed him" or at least allowed the "heroes" to kill him. and his sword was destroyed so he lost a lot of power.

i say that the lk takes it. especially because its the lich king and not arthas. the lich king is still alive in lore, and the current lich king was a much better champion than arthas was as a paladin and even further the "Lich king" in and of itself, not the title, means ner'zul, who is pretty worthless in a fight by himself, but to my knowledge cannot be killed by mortals like samus....LOL samus just keeps attacking him and eventually gets turned into an undead...that would be epic

The Scenario

Yes, it's not like Samus has killed things like the Lich King before. Really, there are being in Metroid that, while not said to be gods, have displayed greater power or range of power greater than some gods in other fiction. Greater than what I've seen the Lich King do, at any rate.

I've already brought him up, but Gorea is a shapeshifting psychic soulstealer that drained several planets and single handedly defeated a race of enlightened psychic creatures with powerful technology. The Emperor Ing, too, has control over the Ing and his own personal dimension. The Ing are basically demons with a Sci-Fi name: able to spiritually posses creatures, objects, and machines, live in a tortuous place that kills all who enter, and tend to rip holes in the fabric of space when they attack. Then there's Dark Samus/Metroid Prime, the ruler of phazon.

I have little doubt Samus can take him down.

DarkC

Originally posted by The Scenario
Yes, it's not like Samus has killed things like the Lich King before. Really, there are being in Metroid that, while not said to be gods, have displayed greater power or range of power greater than some gods in other fiction. Greater than what I've seen the Lich King do, at any rate.

I've already brought him up, but Gorea is a shapeshifting psychic soulstealer that drained several planets and single handedly defeated a race of enlightened psychic creatures with powerful technology. The Emperor Ing, too, has control over the Ing and his own personal dimension. The Ing are basically demons with a Sci-Fi name: able to spiritually posses creatures, objects, and machines, live in a tortuous place that kills all who enter, and tend to rip holes in the fabric of space when they attack. Then there's Dark Samus/Metroid Prime, the ruler of phazon.

I have little doubt Samus can take him down.
Out of those the closest to concievably achieving 'Godhood' is Gorea and if I recall rightly, Samus had to resort to some ancient cannon to beat him. If it's just her with Varia suit and standard issue upgrades, would she have triumphed? Would she have beaten a lot of bosses if it was just Varia suit?

Feat listing aren't getting the topic anywhere. If you can come up with a plan or at least what Samus would strategically do in a battle vs Arthas then we can progress from there. But from what's been shown, she'd need gear or a weapon so pure as to be able to shatter Frostmourne in order to really weaken him, neither of which is a granted amenity. Maybe the Light Beam/Suit.

But since Mr. Cyner here didn't add any handicaps to Arthas, also taking into notice the other thread that has LK facing Samus + 4 others...clearly a spite thread, despite your misgivings.

ScreamPaste

That thread could easily have been misjudged. I could make

Lich King, Sargeras, Ganondorf, and King of All Cosmos v.s. MC, that doesn't mean MC v.s. any of them is a spite thread against them. (Infact, they're all spite against chief.)

DarkC

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
That thread could easily have been misjudged. I could make

Lich King, Sargeras, Ganondorf, and King of All Cosmos v.s. MC, that doesn't mean MC v.s. any of them is a spite thread against them. (Infact, they're all spite against chief.)
You listed an non-GM character vs 5 powerful ones. 1v1 is enough to be a spite thread. This is pretty much the opposite of the case in question.

Don't compare this or the other thread to the absurd example you just used.

ScreamPaste

It is comparable, because basing estimations on the fact that someone else made a thread which could have been misjudged is illogical.

DarkC

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
It is comparable, because basing estimations on the fact that someone else made a thread which could have been misjudged is illogical.
Yeah, that only makes sense if you totally ignore the context in the sentence in which I said it. And the contents of the topics themselves.

Nice.

ScreamPaste

So you don't see the obvious hole here?

Nemesis X

Has Samus ever shown a feat where she can withstand magic attacks?

DarkC

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
So you don't see the obvious hole here?
You're separating one quote from me - albeit taken massively out of context - and engineering it for your own needs. We've established that much, thanks.
Originally posted by DarkC
Yeah, that only makes sense if you totally ignore the context in the sentence in which I said it. And the contents of the topics themselves.

Nice.

Originally posted by Nemesis X
Has Samus ever shown a feat where she can withstand magic attacks?
Plenty, despite being a scifi shooter.

The Scenario

Samus has a few strategies she can employ against most enemies, but since I don't really know the Lich King's durability, I guess I can list a few of them.

1. Screw Attack at the speed of sound. Samus is faster than the LK, and the Speed Booster only increases that. The Screw Attack is powerful on its own, as well. Both at once can ruin anyone's day.

2. Simply shoot him. Samus' weaponry operates in the terawatt range. One of them has enough energy in one shot to power the United States for a year. I doubt the LK has ever taken an attack like this. It's 40K level tech.

Actually, that's pretty much it. With all her weapons, Samus has access to the Light Beam/Sunburst (as close to a holy weapon as you're getting), the Annihilator Beam/Sonic Boom (a matter-antimatter weapon), the Omega Cannon (afforementioned Gorea killer), and the Hyper Beam and PED.

Also, what Screampaste means is that just because Samus is part of another battle with the Lich King where she has allies, doesn't mean that she isn't capable of winning alone.

ScreamPaste

I didn't take it out of context, I showed your line of reason to be faulty. As for engineering it to my own needs? I haven't backed either character in this thread, so what need did I satisfy by showing that?

You're welcome.

DarkC

Originally posted by The Scenario
Samus has a few strategies she can employ against most enemies, but since I don't really know the Lich King's durability, I guess I can list a few of them.

1. Screw Attack at the speed of sound. Samus is faster than the LK, and the Speed Booster only increases that. The Screw Attack is powerful on its own, as well. Both at once can ruin anyone's day

2. Simply shoot him. Samus' weaponry operates in the terawatt range. One of them has enough energy in one shot to power the United States for a year. I doubt the LK has ever taken an attack like this. It's 40K level tech.

Actually, that's pretty much it. With all her weapons, Samus has access to the Light Beam/Sunburst (as close to a holy weapon as you're getting), the Annihilator Beam/Sonic Boom (a matter-antimatter weapon), the Omega Cannon (afforementioned Gorea killer), and the Hyper Beam and PED.

Yeah, I'll give you that she's like a hundred times faster, and all her attacks are considerably strong. LK is slow as f*ck. However, I suppose that if he weren't as ridiculously strong as he was, he wouldn't need to move fast.

I wouldn't be too sure whether to count Omega Cannon in, considering that it's a one-time usage in one game and primarily for the purpose of killing one boss. But that's my two cents. Whether he can take the attack is an interesting notion.

The allied factions that created Shadowmourne, the axe that was forged to kill Arthas, had to be imbued with shards from the Frozen Throne itself just to be able to pass through its armor. Just one of a few numerous other enchantments it was given, and very powerful ones at that.

To save you looking, the Ashen Verdict had two factions, Argent Crusade (Paladins) and Ebon Knights (deathknights that are rebelling against him) that crafted two weapons that were basically the extent of LK's downfall. Ashbringer from the Crusade was the blade that shattered Frostmourne, and Shadowmourne was the weapon that dealt the killing blow.

No, he just set up a strawman for some reason.

Even if she did somehow win it's still a spite thread, you do realise this, right?

Anyways, Lich King is just one of those VG entities that can't be killed unless by a certain weapon or school of magic or some miracle etc, and I'm sure you've seen plenty of those. If you want to call it a bullshit mechanic and a broken concept for the sake of VS debates, I would completely agree. But it doesn't change the current standings.

ScreamPaste

The KMC rules. The current standings have been changed. Also, the Lich King can be defeated, and that's all that's required of Samus, not utter destruction.

It's not a strawman, at all, because I wasn't using it to prove anything other than that you're line of thinking was flawed.

DarkC

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I didn't take it out of context, I showed your line of reason to be faulty.
You solely focused on the 'Samus and 4 others' part of the sentence and from what it looks like didn't pay much attention to the rest. Would you rather I have gone back to the thread and typed them out name by name? Too lazy.

Yes, you did take it out of context, whether it was intentional or not. Scenario's interpretation seems to confirm my accusations.

No, you're right, it's just off-topic nitpicking.

Satisfied?

ScreamPaste

Yep.

DarkC

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The KMC rules. The current standings have been changed. Also, the Lich King can be defeated, and that's all that's required of Samus, not utter destruction.
Newsflash, he's already been defeated.

No, he's not invulnerable - and I've even specified to Scenario what makes him vulnerable. In both threads. What else do I need to remind you of? I've even gone so far as to thoughtfully toss in Lightbeam/suit as an option for Samus.

You separated part of my post and created an incorrect conclusion out of it.

Say what you like, it's a textbook strawman.

ScreamPaste

Negative.

The conclusion was perfectly valid because your innitial conclusion was flawed.

You took:
Samus was in a thread with allies v.s. the Lich King.

Concluded:
Therefore she must need them to fight him and loses.

This is flawed reasoning.

I took it and concluded:
The poster of said thread's opinion of the power of those characters may or may not have been accurate. Therefore, this is not evidence of the relative power of said characters.

You done?

DarkC

You basically confirmed my point from simply from using the characters in their correct circumstances. This is correct, but take a look at what you said earlier.

You picked 5 arbitrary strong characters and pit them against a comparatively weak one. By doing that you established yourself as being on the more general outlook of the choice, whereas I was more into the character choice and circumstances in these particular threads. It's not like every 1v5 that breaks off a 1v1 will have the any of the same outcomes.

I suppose you would be correct if you thought I was also putting that quote as a general statement, but in this case, with these characters, yes it is spite. It's obvious at this point that you picked a poor example there though regardless.

The Scenario

Well, Cyner specified that they get everything. I believe this would include one time things like the Omega Cannon and the other seven weapons from Hunters. The Light/Dark/Annihilator/Nova/Hyper/Phazon/Spazer/Wide Beams are all one-game weapons that don't appear again, as well, so...yeah.

Cyner also specified that the Lich King is everyone that has held the title in one being (sort of like Link, actually...) so he gets the old stuff as well as the new guy.

This is a pretty difficult match to think about. I have no idea how durable the Lich King is, but Samus has dealt with the supernatural, some of which was explicitly magical. However, this usually happens when magic and tech mix. Magic is on the "no limits" side while tech is usually more well defined. What would happen if you nuked and magical barrier, for example. Samus is perfectly capable of nuking something, too.

The Battlehammer, from Hunters, is a miniature nuclear reactor. The Omega Cannon itself gives off huge amounts of gamma radiation, and is said to be a Weapon of Mass Destruction. Pretty heavily hinted that she did nuke Gorea. The annihilator beam is matter-antimatter, and that reation tends to be fairly nuclear, too.

So, what would happen if the Lich King got nuked? Or plasma'd, electrocuted, or dare I say it, frozen? It's confirmed that Samus' ice weapons reach near absolute zero, the coldest it's possible to get. Actually, never mind, I don't want to go there. Let's stick to plasma, electricity, and nukes for now.

Ms.Marvel

i love kmc. where real men debate things things that are totally irrelevant to the topic like choosing a bad example!

Cyner

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
i love kmc. where real men debate things things that are totally irrelevant to the topic like choosing a bad example!

lol Ms. Marvel, someone has to go off topic, and it might as well be Screampaste!

ScreamPaste

I am, afteral, an exemplar of herculean manliness. cool

DarkC

Originally posted by The Scenario
Well, Cyner specified that they get everything. I believe this would include one time things like the Omega Cannon and the other seven weapons from Hunters. The Light/Dark/Annihilator/Nova/Hyper/Phazon/Spazer/Wide Beams are all one-game weapons that don't appear again, as well, so...yeah.
Well, what I meant is that the Omega was only used for one purpose, to kill Gorea. And it was only used for a few minutes on the last 'phase' of the encounter.

I automatically assumed the other weaponry as acceptable simply because they were used more than just one phase of one boss fight. It's up to thread creator to clarify the decision though.

All those listed are physical attacks. Whether he would survive a head on hit without trying to protect himself with a orb of nuclear capability power I cannot say. I'm pretty sure that if Arthas and Icecrown Citadel could be just nuked into the ground that the good guys wouldn't have wasted so many lives and finance and instead just developed some giant-ass bomb. Hell, if they can engineer teleportation I would definitely imagine a bomb isn't something to fuss about either.

Thus far there hasn't and never will be a demonstration of the Lich King's defensive abilities, considering he's dead. So I won't go around throwing bombshells and theories regarding LK specifically. But other mages in the Warcraft lore, even in a weakened state, could hold off a lot of things. Krasus for example, even when exhausted he could hold up a magical barrier against a enormous burst of elemental lava from Deathwing (dragon aspect who turned to the Dark Side, to put things simply)

Now, if the Omega Beam does manage to hurt or kill his physical shell, it's not a magical attack. It would only put him down temporarily. As I said in the other thread, you'd have to destroy the helm and the sword too in order to put him down for good, and those need magic.

But all that needs to be considered if Omega Beam hits him. From what I garner, it's quite slow for a beam. And while LK isn't nearly as quick as Samus, he isn't exactly sluggish. He still retains Arthas martial abilities, which are amplified through Frostmourne.

As for the other beam attacks, the electricity and whatnot - those aren't magical attacks either. He's faced down users of the primal forces of these types of attacks. For example, he's superior to the Aspect of Magic, Malygos - who's done things like some crazy ass existence-wiping beam, plus things like pure elemental lightning, not just a lightning beam like Samus. I'm not downgrading Samus's gear, but her gear just doesn't match up to something of that magnitude.

However, what piques my interest is the Dark/Light beams and suits. I don't know what makes/generates them, but they sound more magical and less physical in nature, which was why I brought it up earlier.

Phantom Miria

Originally posted by The Scenario
1. Screw Attack at the speed of sound. Samus is faster than the LK, and the Speed Booster only increases that.

When you say this, you have of course taken in consideration that when Arthas was just Arthas, he indifferently yawned of a speeding arrow and split it in half with his sword. This was a feat before he combined with the Lich King and his awareness increased ten thousand fold.

In case it is news to you, a common human is capable of firing an arrow at roughly 450 fps with the right bow. Sylvanas is not a common human and has no common bow and her arrows travel a great deal faster.

Not saying he is as fast, nearly as fast or anything like that. You just make it seem like he is utterly chanceless to a fast move. I personaly can see him react to a move the speed of sound. At least fast enough to phase shift and turn the tide.

ScreamPaste

It would not be far fetched, from what I know about Sylvanas, which I admit isn't that much, for her arrows to move at mach 1.

DarkC

Would he even bother to get out of the way is the question, at least IMO.

The Scenario

Originally posted by DarkC
Well, what I meant is that the Omega was only used for one purpose, to kill Gorea. And it was only used for a few minutes on the last 'phase' of the encounter.

It's sort of a recent tradition of Metroid to have the final boss defeated by something Samus got a few minutes before. The Hyper Beam worked this way. Samus' Phazon Suit converted nearby phazon into a beam weapon out of nowhere, her charge beam once suddenly gained the ability to absorb a boss' attack to fire it back when it couldn't before (and hasn't done so since). This once even happened to the Ice Beam, despite usually being gained midway through the game.

Eh, he did say everything was allowed.

I blame the Gnomes. They don't exactly have great guns, and the only explosives I've seen are gunpowder based. Also, PIS may have been involved. I know it's possible to enchant guns and gunpowder, so a magic bomb shouldn't be too tough to pull off. There's no way to tell unless someone actually tries it.

Interesting, but Samus is armed with things more potent than lava, and can even swim in the stuff without harm. Yeah, weakest one and all that, but I've never been fond of that kind of example as it only establishes a lower limit, rather than a higher one. And looking them both up, it seem Krasus is something of a badass, so the barrier holding doesn't seem out of the ordinary.

I dunno. Wouldn't something like that still count as a defeat, if not a death? How fast could he reform?

It makes up for speed with a rather huge blast radius, along with attack power. And until we finally see Samus engaged in melee, I'm going to assume she'll stay at range as long as possible.

What is magic, really? It's impossible to say what makes it superior. I can't say anything about magic, but lightning I can argue. One of Samus' weapons draws directly from the electromagnetic field of whatever planet she's on, or from the suit itself. Whichever. She took that one from a guy who was constantly giving off enough electrical energy to rival an entire thunderstorm, and every single lightning bolt contained within. These weapons are in the terawatt range (1,000,000,000,000 watts of power) and could power the the United States for a year with a single shot. It's actually one of the weaker weapons.

As I've said, Metroid tech is on a whole other level from things like Halo (500,000 watts in most weapons), Star Trek (a terawatt can power the Enterprise), and Star Wars. There a guy in Metroid one wields two nuclear reactors on his person at all times, in addition to whatever powers his suit. There's a half-robot dragon who breathes plasma instead of fire (this was before the enhancements, though), and sometimes prefers his missile launcher while he flies around with forcefield wings. Research stations are capable of destroying planets. And Samus is still considered one of the strongest beings there.

The basic gist is this: Aether is a rogue planet, meaning it has no sun. There is a mysterious energy source on it known as the Light of Aether, which serves several purposes. One of them is seving as a star and replacing sunlight. The other is keeping the planet itself stable. Without the Light, it would implode. Also on Aether are the Luminoth, psychic moth creatures to whom the Light has great religious significance. They built Energy Controllers to regulate it and prevent it from getting out of hand. It's like holy energy to them.

The Light Beam and Light Suit are made from the Light of Aether, and are especially effective against dark creatures and other such things. The Light Beam also has a missile combo called the Sunburst, which is exactly what it sounds like. A huge bomb of Light, pretty much. The Dark Beam and Dark Suit are the counterparts, and they are formed of the energy from Dark Aether, Aether's alternate dimension. They are effective against Light creatures, which are defined as anything not from Dark Aether. The Dark Beam's missile combo is the Darkburst, which tears open a portal that sucks things in and rips them apart.

The Annihilator Beam is wierd, with multiple properties. It's a matter-antimatter weapon with both a Light and Dark nature, and also has sonic weapon qualities. It also homes in on enemies and is rapid-fire. Its missile combo is the Sonic Boom, which basically fires the sound barrier at things.

Cyner

Samus can also see and kill super natural enemies such as Phantoon and Chozo ghosts.

DarkC

Originally posted by The Scenario
It's sort of a recent tradition of Metroid to have the final boss defeated by something Samus got a few minutes before. The Hyper Beam worked this way. Samus' Phazon Suit converted nearby phazon into a beam weapon out of nowhere, her charge beam once suddenly gained the ability to absorb a boss' attack to fire it back when it couldn't before (and hasn't done so since). This once even happened to the Ice Beam, despite usually being gained midway through the game.
Regardless it's still on the borderline of her arsenal, something fleetingly brief like that. Ice beam I can understand, because it's been in at least several. What other weapons/gear have been the case of Omega Beam, a one-time-one-boss usage?

Maybe not in terms of first impressions, no. And considering the chaotic and creative use of magic in the Warcraft universe, a magical bomb is not out of the impossible at all.

It wasn't lava as much it was the breath from a prime Aspect, who happens to be warder of the land itself. Before he turned evil, that is. That and factoring in how Krasus was exhausted and at the end of the line gives some insight to how much and what a magical barrier can actually withstand in the Warcraft universe.

I realise that yeah, it's a rather limiting insight, but as you can see the bar is quite high even at the lower levels. Best example I could think of off the top of my head.

His soul, as much his as it belongs to Frostmourne, is the true extent of his power - the 'magical' part of the Lich King, so to speak - which is where the whole destroying the sword and the helm comes from.

The act of the Lich King's soul within Artha's body is mostly symbolic, which is where the helm and sword come into relevance. The act of putting the helmet on merged their entities into one being, using Artha's body as an avatar.

I think she'd probably just use Screw Attack once or just use it to widen the gap.

I think you might have made a bit of a hasty comparison here trying to pose magic against concepts that are more modern, logical, and easier to comprehend. I can understand why you're trying to do this, although I can tell you at the same time that it won't make sense even if you force it too. Magic in their world is chaotic. To put it in a more colloquial sense, it's like trying to compare chairs and bears.

The idea behind magic is that it comes in a lot of different forms and levels of power. It would take too long to form some kind of a power heirarchy regarding specific characters. The effects of the spells are comparable to those of technology. Like, if a warlock summoned Hell's own fire to destroy his enemies, they would be burned to death. Likewise, if Samus used her flamethrower to torch her enemies, they would be burned to death.

While those numbers and statistics are indeed impressive considering modern technology, it still pales in comparison to the kind of attacks he's faced. It doesn't seem like you understand my comprehension earlier, but put more simply it's the different between using a very powerful lightning-based attack vs. an attack born from the Spirit of Lightning itself (in Warcraft's case, fire). It just doesn't compare at all.

Technology vs magic was always an impasse of a debate anyway.

When you say "Light" or "Dark" do they pertain to the words in a religous sense, like Holy and Evil, or is it more symbolic towards the colors themselves?

She'd need some kind of Light-based attack with incredible power akin to Omega Beam to be a decent adversary for Arthas. LK's faced down both holy, unholy, and shadow based magical attacks before. Again, I look towards the kind of power that was put into Ashbringer to be able to shatter Frostmourne - they basically had to imbue it with (to put it into casual terms) part of God's own essence.

Phantom Miria

Originally posted by Cyner
Samus can also see and kill super natural enemies such as Phantoon and Chozo ghosts.

Something many often fail to understand with the Lich King, is that when he spirit walk, he does not become a spirit in the physical realm. In order to see him when he shift state, you need to be able to see through dimensions. At least parallel ones.

Cyner

Originally posted by Phantom Miria
Something many often fail to understand with the Lich King, is that when he spirit walk, he does not become a spirit in the physical realm. In order to see him when he shift state, you need to be able to see through dimensions. At least parallel ones.

Luckily she has two visors that let her do precisely that. The dark visor lets her see into other dimentions/planes of existence, and the X-ray visor lets her see phase shifted beings or ghost beings. All of which she doesn't need anything more than her power beam to shoot.

Phantoon was the only super natural enemy you didn't need a different visor to see but that was in Super Metroid and he did phase in and out.

The Scenario

Originally posted by DarkC
Regardless it's still on the borderline of her arsenal, something fleetingly brief like that. Ice beam I can understand, because it's been in at least several. What other weapons/gear have been the case of Omega Beam, a one-time-one-boss usage?

Hyper Beam, original Phazon Beam, and the Omega Cannon. The Ice Beam example was from a point where Samus couldn't get it due to the plot. The Charge beam absorbing and redirecting attacks was more a case an old weapon doing something new.

But my question is, what makes it different from normal lava? Granted, normal lava is still extremely dangerous, but what makes Dearhwing's better? You said LK was better at magic than the Aspect of magic. What is it that makes Malygos' magic better than others, and what in turn make the LK better than that?

Exactly. Just like the lava, I do not understand what makes magic "just better" than not magic. The electrical attack vs. elemental lightning is particularly jarring. Given that the electric blast is as powerful, or more, as a lightning strike (or an entire storm, say), why is an attack from a Spirit seen as better? I currently have no reason to believe that a Spirit of Lightning would be able to do more damage than a non-magical lightning strike. I assume it embodies lightning, but that doesn't exactly mean its lightning is more powerful.

Lava vs. plasma is another. Would Deathwing's lava compare to plasma, for example? I just don't really believe it. Besides, Samus has her own magma grenade launcher. Not important, but worth mentioning.

Hard to say. The Light of Aether is certainly considered holy, and the dark energy of the Ing is unholy. Dark Aether has a corrosive and life draining atmosphere, for example, and the Ing can't survive on Aether.