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Gambit (X Men:Origins) and Daredevil fight on the rooftops of Hell's kitchen. Daredevil has the weapons he used in his movie. Gambit has his cane and a full deck of cards.

The fight takes place at night, and it is to the death. Can Daredevil beat the mutant?

Yes.

We saw nothing in Gambit's scenes that suggest he could have done what Daredevil did in the opening scene of his movie, with that many people and guns.

He dodged Bullseye who is way more accurate than Gambit.

-AC

I had that thought as I was making the thread, but remember the scene where Bullseye used the organ pipes to disorient DD? And in the subway, the sound of the passing train brought him to his knees.

If Gambit can create an explosion, like he did with his cane on the alley floor, he has a chance. Or with his cards.

Daredevil in a stomp.

I dont think so, Gambit disorients him easily IMO.

Na, he'll get a mouth-full of grappling hook before that happens.

Movie versions...Daredevil wins.

comic Versions...,Daredevil doesn't have a chance.

Originally posted by Robtard
Na, he'll get a mouth-full of grappling hook before that happens.

All I'm saying is that if Gambit manages to disorient DD (which should be easy cheesy, remember the explosion he caused in the alley that threw Wolvie and Creed 30ish feet back?), he wins hands down. Of course if DD manages to get in close and go H2H Gambit loses.

Even if Gambit charges his full deck of cards and misses with everyone of them, the ensuing blasts will surely **** up DD's senses. Not to mention Gambit was every bit as agile/athletic as DD was.

Yes, he was, don't deny it.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
All I'm saying is that if Gambit manages to disorient DD (which should be easy cheesy, remember the explosion he caused in the alley that threw Wolvie and Creed 30ish feet back?), he wins hands down. Of course if DD manages to get in close and go H2H Gambit loses.

Even if Gambit charges his full deck of cards and misses with everyone of them, the ensuing blasts will surely **** up DD's senses. Not to mention Gambit was every bit as agile/athletic as DD was.

Yes, he was, don't deny it.

First of all, it takes very loud noises to do that to Daredevil, otherwise all the gun-fire in that bar would have ****ed him up. Not sure if Gambit's little booms are on par (and pitch) with the massive pipe-organs.

Daredevil times bullets, Gambit isn't going to hit him, not a chance when Daredevil makes even Bullseye miss.

Gambit didn't show all that much on screen to judge him equal to Daredevil in terms of speed and agility.

I'm talking about the cycle exploding when Bullseye killed Elektras father, Gambits explosions arent as loud as the pipe organs, but the shock/sound waves from Gambits explosions should suffice. Here, watch the beginning of this vid:

xLN2PPRk38U


When the cycle explodes, DD is so disoriented he cant even catch a simple baton. Gambit unloads on him with a full deck of cards, dude, DD will be useless.

Gambit will never NEED to "hit" him, he can stand back and charge anything into an explosive device, until DD is no more. The explosios he caused in the alley that hurled Victor and Logan backwards would likely have killed/crippled a normal man.

Gambit displayed a shitload of agility when he was using his canes as a ladder. And flipping around like Yoda.

6534QZxiYuM

too horrible characters...

but DD wins

I really wish people would give up on using comic book movie characters. It's unimaginitive and it always leads to arguments because the reputation if not the feats of the comic book versions always creep in to the arguments.

Gambit doesn't need to hit Daredevil. He only needs to throw a charged object near DD and the explosion will do the rest. Gambit can charge any inanimate object. He is also capable of emitting kinetic blasts through his staff. A 52 card pick up should be enough to disorient Daredevil. The only reason i give Daredevil the win here is because we really didn't get to see to much of Gambit in the movies. There should be no reason why he would lose but we definitely saw much more impressive feats from Daredevil in the movies. Although, i still say it would be hard for DD to defend a against a 52 pick up or a charged light post. Would Daredevil even be able to sense that Gambit just charged a brick wall or light post?

Probably not.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
6534QZxiYuM

Holy ****, dude. That would have killed any non-mutant-durable man...cept people like Wolverine, Sabertooth, and McClane.

That blast was tearing up everything around it...seems like only the bricks didn't break/shatter.


If Gambit does that, right off, even if he's out of range, his "vision" is shot to ****.




This really comes down to how much knowledge the fighters have of each other. If Gambit knows, before the fight starts, how to "blind" DD, he wins 10 out of 10 times because DD has, pretty much, human levels of durability.

Originally posted by jaden101
I really wish people would give up on using comic book movie characters. It's unimaginitive and it always leads to arguments because the reputation if not the feats of the comic book versions always creep in to the arguments.

Not really. Those types of arguments rarely creep up in versus debates and they are really just "aside" comments that aren't really used.


Only that Will guy actually tried to pass of comic book feats, from what I can remember.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Holy ****, dude. That would have killed any non-mutant-durable man...cept people like Wolverine, Sabertooth, and McClane.

That blast was tearing up everything around it...seems like only the bricks didn't break/shatter.


If Gambit does that, right off, even if he's out of range, his "vision" is shot to ****.




This really comes down to how much knowledge the fighters have of each other. If Gambit knows, before the fight starts, how to "blind" DD, he wins 10 out of 10 times because DD has, pretty much, human levels of durability. Even if Gambit knows nothing of DD's sonar sense, DD is done. Gambit's power is like.....you know.......blowing shit up.........Why wouldn't he use it here? Saying Gambit wouldn't use his power is like saying DD wouldn't use his sonar sense. Wouldn't happen.

The first time he causes an explosion, he will see the effect it has on DD. Then it's only a matter of time, DD will be at Gambit's mercy. Any other argument is just wanting DD to win.

Gambit loses, due to the fact that he was f*cking ghey-ass fairy.

Nah, he wins because he is uber compared to DD.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Even if Gambit knows nothing of DD's sonar sense, DD is done. Gambit's power is like.....you know.......blowing shit up.........Why wouldn't he use it here? Saying Gambit wouldn't use his power is like saying DD wouldn't use his sonar sense. Wouldn't happen.

The first time he causes an explosion, he will see the effect it has on DD. Then it's only a matter of time, DD will be at Gambit's mercy. Any other argument is just wanting DD to win.

Your points come with the fact that the Daredevil movie is inconsistent.

First they show him immune to a roomful of men with shotguns, machine guns and other weaponry. All of that noise does absolutely nothing to him, and combined that's about equal to an explosion.

Then, they let a car blowing up be the source of his disorientation.

Any disorientation in the movie was used as a plot point, not because that's a weakness he has.

Examples: Bar fight? Nothing. Loud noises? Yes. Things smashing, shotgun fire, machine gun fire, music (In the bar), men shouting, fans whirring.

When did he get disorientated? When the plot called for it; Bullseye fight, Nikolas' death, subway part.

Those aren't legit weaknesses. A train is not more disorientating than lots of men shouting, music blaring, things smashing and assortments of weapon fire from all directions, but they made it out to be.

-AC

Irrelevant. the subway scene, Natchios' death, and organ pipe scene show that extreme noise disorients him.

It was the motorcycle that BE drove that blew up.

I agree on the inconsistency part though. The only thing I can think to offer there is that those noises were of a higher pitch, maybe? Or maybe they produced a bigger shock wave?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Irrelevant. the subway scene, Natchios' death, and organ pipe scene show that extreme noise disorients him.

Yeah, and the opening fight shows it doesn't.

So it's hardly irrelevant, is it? It is, in fact, extremely relevant.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I agree on the inconsistency part though. The only thing I can think to offer there is that those noises were of a higher pitch, maybe? Or maybe they produced a bigger shock wave?

Doubtful. They would have explained it if that were the case. Either way, it's too specific to decide for ourselves. It was a clear inconsistency.

Daredevil's most accurate scene WAS the bar fight. The rest happened to push the plot, not because they're actual weaknesses.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Your points come with the fact that the Daredevil movie is inconsistent.

First they show him immune to a roomful of men with shotguns, machine guns and other weaponry. All of that noise does absolutely nothing to him, and combined that's about equal to an explosion.

Then, they let a car blowing up be the source of his disorientation


I'd say that's points to a huge CIS for DD's abilities.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Any disorientation in the movie was used as a plot point, not because that's a weakness he has.

You've got that backwards. In versus fights, CIS or PIS is thrown out. That's supposed to be a weakness. It is a weakness. CIS, literally, be damned.

It's like claiming that a blaster bolt travels at 2 KM a sec. That's obviously not the case, but there are multiple instances of them traveling at kilomters a second.


The "pain" showed by DD and the disorientation is made quite clear, is stylized, and is definitely a weakness. Other items that contradict that is just CIS/PIS.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Examples: Bar fight? Nothing. Loud noises? Yes. Things smashing, shotgun fire, machine gun fire, music (In the bar), men shouting, fans whirring.

When did he get disorientated? When the plot called for it; Bullseye fight, Nikolas' death, subway part.


lol

Exactly.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Those aren't legit weaknesses. A train is not more disorientating than lots of men shouting, music blaring, things smashing and assortments of weapon fire from all directions, but they made it out to be.

-AC

You've got it. Except, you've got it backwards. You are saying it hurt him when the plot called for it when it's the opposite: it didn't hurt him when they plot called for it.


It's a weakness. It will be used in these MVF debates. Anyone trying to contradict that should be ignored. In other words, if you continue to say that really loud sounds are not a weakness for DD, you should be ignored.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


Yeah, and the opening fight shows it doesn't.

So it's hardly irrelevant, is it? It is, in fact, extremely relevant.



Doubtful. They would have explained it if that were the case. Either way, it's too specific to decide for ourselves. It was a clear inconsistency.

Daredevil's most accurate scene WAS the bar fight. The rest happened to push the plot, not because they're actual weaknesses.

-AC OK, so here's what we have to go with:

Gun blasts have no effect on DD.
People shouting have no effect on DD.
Speeding subway trains do.
Explosions do.



As stupid as that sounds, we gotta accept it.

Dudemon, here's how this dance is going down.

If you're gonna pick and choose when to ignore me in debates, then why shouldn't YOU be ignored?

Nothing you said countered me, I'm gonna assume nothing you said made sense (See? I can do it too).

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
OK, so here's what we have to go with:

Gun blasts have no effect on DD.
People shouting have no effect on DD.
Speeding subway trains do.
Explosions do.



As stupid as that sounds, we gotta accept it.

You actually keep ignoring the fact that those things only affected him due to plot point. They're weaknesses, but plot point weaknesses. This is a plot point-less fight.

In a fight, he beats rooms full of men firing guns with masses of noise coming from all direction.

You've just gotta accept that.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Dudemon, here's how this dance is going down.

If you're gonna pick and choose when to ignore me in debates, then why shouldn't YOU be ignored?

Nothing you said countered me, I'm gonna assume nothing you said made sense (See? I can do it too).



You actually keep ignoring the fact that those things only affected him due to plot point. They're weaknesses, but plot point weaknesses. This is a plot point-less fight.

In a fight, he beats rooms full of men firing guns with masses of noise coming from all direction.

You've just gotta accept that.

-AC I accept that fully. Guys with guns are ****ed against DD.

BUT.....What happened when DD is in the vicinity of a small scale explosion? His senses were fried. Gambit's explosions destroy buildings and fling mutants backwards at least 20 feet, do the math.

Gunfire, no problem for DD.

Explosions, big problem for DD.

It is what is shown onscreen.


I'll never ignore you, Sugar heartbeat

Na, Gambit goes down due to grapple-hook to the face, followed by one serious physical stomping by a guy in red leather.

Originally posted by Robtard
Na, Gambit goes down due to grapple-hook to the face, followed by one serious physical beat-down by a guy in red leather.

Gambit is quick enough to dodge the "grapple hook to the face" technique. You know, the one DD is never shown using. He then jams his cane into the ground, obliterating everything around him, including DD.

DD might as well try the "Banana in the tailpipe" technique. Wait, Gambit will be ramming his cane up DD's ass, there might not be enough room.

He did use that technique, against Kingpin.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
It is what is shown onscreen.

Where plot points exist.

This is a plot point-less fight. Why do I have to say things multiple times?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
He did use that technique, against Kingpin.



Where plot points exist.

This is a plot point-less fight. Why do I have to say things multiple times?

-AC

Originally posted by Impediment


However, let's be clear on the rules of the MVF so we do not have any mishaps and/or clutter:

The MVF Golden Rule:What is seen on screen is canon in these forums. If your character you wish to use has feats/actions/handicaps that contradict what that character did on screen (movie canon), then it is a violation and is illegal. MOVIE FEATS ONLY!


-Impediment

DD's senses were fried due to a small explosion. Gambit's explosions will be much larger. It's simple, man. Plot's be damned, it is what we are shown onscreen.

Gambit's power is blowing shit up. He'll use it right away here, why wouldn't he?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Dudemon, here's how this dance is going down.

If you're gonna pick and choose when to ignore me in debates, then why shouldn't YOU be ignored?

Nothing you said countered me, I'm gonna assume nothing you said made sense (See? I can do it too).



You actually keep ignoring the fact that those things only affected him due to plot point. They're weaknesses, but plot point weaknesses. This is a plot point-less fight.

In a fight, he beats rooms full of men firing guns with masses of noise coming from all direction.

You've just gotta accept that.

-AC

K. So, you're pretending that I didn't destroy your whole argument. You're also doing a "no you!". Great job.




RJ, ignore the troll.

Don't respond to him when he's trolling the threads. Seriously.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Gambit is quick enough to dodge the "grapple hook to the face" technique. You know, the one DD is never shown using. He then jams his cane into the ground, obliterating everything around him, including DD.

DD might as well try the "Banana in the tailpipe" technique. Wait, Gambit will be ramming his cane up DD's ass, there might not be enough room.

I've only watched that shit movie once, but when did Gambit dodge something that was coming at him that had considerable speed behind it?

No, as AC said, he did use his grapple-hook as a ranged weapon. I'm also pretty sure he did it more than once; not just with the King Pin fight. I own the director's cut, which makes the movie considerably better, maybe I'll watch it sometime this week.

Again, DD is faster(bullet-timer and all), so grapple-hook-to-the-face comes before cane-charged-into-the-ground.

Gambit can jam his cane into the ground WAY faster than DD can draw his baton, aim, fire, and wait for the hook to strike Gambit. Any fool can see this, why are you even arguing it?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Gambit can jam his cane into the ground WAY faster than DD can draw his baton, aim, fire, and wait for the hook to strike Gambit. Any fool can see this, why are you even arguing it?

Because I'm applying movie-feats, DD has a movie full of them that are way more impressive than the few snippets we get to see of Gambit.

This is starting to turn into the 'Bumblebee Vs Sideswipe' thread, where one guy has many feats and the other guy doesn't have much of anything, but yet the argument continues, just cuz.

Edit: Pretty sure it took Gambit a few seconds to charge his staff to proper levels, ergo, grapple-hook top the face, followed by a serious ass-kicking.

applying movie feats even if gambit charges his cane/throws his deck of cards at DD, DD's "radar sense" will alert him in milliseconds thereby DD avoids what Gambit throws at him and then DD takes out Remy easy

Originally posted by Robtard
Because I'm applying movie-feats, DD has a movie full of them that are way more impressive than the few snippets we get to see of Gambit.

This is starting to turn into the 'Bumblebee Vs Sideswipe' thread, where one guy has many feats and the other guy doesn't have much of anything, but yet the argument continues, just cuz.

Edit: Pretty sure it took Gambit a few seconds to charge his staff to proper levels, ergo, grapple-hook top the face, followed by a serious ass-kicking.

Here's the grapple hook scene:

http://video.libero.it/app/play?id=13248b8572b4b1c37248ae5254bc8de0

Kingpin avoided it....Hmm........with a cane!!!! haermm You saying that Kingpin is faster than Gambit? Get a grip, man. Gambit'll dodge and hurl an entire deck of fully charged cards at DD. See, the beauty of it is that Gambit doesn't have to hit DD, the cards can strike a wall, or the ground near DD, and DD's senses wil be shot. At that point, Gambit has DD at his mercy, it'll be like fighting Helen Keller.

It's not about the number of feats, it's about Gambit's power, man. DD has nothing to counter it, literally. Gambit is:

Just as fast.
Just as athletic.
Just as agile.
Has H2H skills that enable him to go toe to toe with DD.

Want proof?


Here, YET AGAIN:

6534QZxiYuM

At the beginning of the vid, Gambit hurls Logan through a brick wall, that alone would have killed DD.

At 1:18, he jams his cane into the ground, hurling Logan and Creed at least 20-30 feet in either direction, and destroying everything around him, Again, THIS would have killed any normal man, including DD.

Gambit then engages Logan H2H, displaying speed, agility and athleticism that is at least on par with DD.

At 2:03, Gambit climbs the wall with his bisected cane. He literally jams each piece into the wall over and over again, and climbs the wall like Spider Man.

At 2:09, he mounts a balcony, runs UP the wall, and flips 30ish feet ACROSS the alley, landing on a balcony on the other side.

Then, when Logan chops him down, Gambit falls all the way to the alley floor with literally no damage. Not a cut, not a scrape, just a brief "Ow" moment.



See, all you really have is "ZOMG DD will grapple hook his face!!!"

I've pretty much smashed that scenario under my boot heel.


Next?

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
applying movie feats even if gambit charges his cane/throws his deck of cards at DD, DD's "radar sense" will alert him in milliseconds thereby DD avoids what Gambit throws at him and then DD takes out Remy easy No, Bruce. DD's sonar radar sense will be fried. The scene where Natchios was killed is proof of this. His sense was fried by a small motorcycle explosion, Gambit's explosions are much larger. Even if DD dodges, there will be a nearby explosion (much nearer than the bike was to DD and much larger), yeah.....DD will be helpless.

There literally is no argument against this, DDM and I have crushed any thrown our way.....yet they still keep coming.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Here's the grapple hook scene:

http://video.libero.it/app/play?id=13248b8572b4b1c37248ae5254bc8de0

Kingpin avoided it....Hmm........with a cane!!!!

Your entire premise fails, as what King Pin can do, isn't what Gambit can do, movie-feats, son.

So I ask you again, is there a scene where Gambit avoids something coming at him with a considerable amount of speed behind it? If not, grapple-hook-to-the-face happens first.

Originally posted by Robtard
Your entire premise fails, as what King Pin can do, isn't what Gambit can do, movie-feats, son.

So I ask you again, is there a scene where Gambit avoids something coming at him with a considerable amount of speed behind it? If not, grapple-hook-to-the-face happens first. No no no, you and AC dragged Kingpin into this, I am entirely justified in saying that Gambit is faster than KP, and that Gambit would avoid the grapple hook attack much easier than KP.

Pretty much the entire scene where he is fighting Logan he displays speed and agility that proves he could avoid/dodge/block something coming at him with a considerable amount of speed behind it.

No counter for this?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Gambit can jam his cane into the ground WAY faster than DD can draw his baton, aim, fire, and wait for the hook to strike Gambit. Any fool can see this, why are you even arguing it?


Thought not.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No no no, you and AC dragged Kingpin into this, I am entirely justified in saying that Gambit is faster than KP, and that Gambit would avoid the grapple hook attack much easier than KP.

Pretty much the entire scene where he is fighting Logan he displays speed and agility that proves he could avoid/dodge/block something coming at him with a considerable amount of speed behind it.

So you're going to ignore the movie-feats rule when it suits you and just decide Gambit can do something now, even though it wasn't shown.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi

No counter for this?

Thought not.

I did already, Gambit needs to charge for a bit, he'll have a mouth-full of grapple before.

Originally posted by Robtard
So you're going to ignore the movie-feats rule when it suits you and just decide Gambit can do something now.



I did already, Gambit needs to charge for a bit, he'll have a mouth-full of grapple before.

Nah, you brought in a feat and compared it to Gambit, I merely countered it and crushed it. Like a big ass zit yo.

Again, I already proved Gambit is too fast for DD to hit with the grapple. He is way faster than Kingpin.

Lose the grapple hook attack theory, Rob, it's done, it's polishing brass on the Titanic.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Nah, you brought in a feat and compared it to Gambit, I merely countered it and crushed it. Like a big ass zit yo.

Again, I already proved Gambit is too fast for DD to hit with the grapple. He is way faster than Kingpin.

Lose the grapple hook attack theory, Rob, it's done, it's polishing brass on the Titanic.

No, you're taking an attribute from one character and applying it to another, because you need to.

You should stick to the rules and go with movie-feats, Gambit didn't do it on screen, he's not doing it in this fight.

Originally posted by Robtard
No, you're taking an attribute from one character and applying it to another, because you need to.

You should stick to the rules and go with movie-feats, Gambit didn't do it on screen, he's not doing it in this fight. Doesn't do what? Display the speed and agility needed to avoid the grapple hook? Because the vid I posted says otherwise. Big time.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Doesn't do what? Display the speed and agility needed to avoid the grapple hook? Because the vid I posted says otherwise. Big time.

Repeat: Did Gambit avoid something coming at him that had equal or greater speed than DD's grapple-hook travels? If so, sure.

The Movie-Feats rule, abide it.

Originally posted by Robtard
Repeat: Did Gambit avoid something coming at him that had equal or greater speed than DD's grapple-hook travels? If so, sure.

The Movie-Feats rule, abide it. His reaction time and fighting speed while fighting Logan is all the proof you need.

Hey, did DD ever CONNECT with anyone with the grapple hook attack?

Well, I think it really comes down to whether Gambit's explosions would disorient DD, if they do he'll most likely win.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
His reaction time and fighting speed while fighting Logan is all the proof you need.

Hey, did DD ever CONNECT with anyone with the grapple hook attack?

Logan wasn't some speedster and iirc, Logan was quick enough to knock his ass out with a simple backhand. So no, what you said isn't proof and you're still ignoring the movie-feats rule.

King Pin blocked it, but I'm pretty sure he did hit someone else with it earlier on. Either way, this has nothing to do with your inability to show Gambit being able to dodge the grapple-hook. While I can show that DD can time bullets.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I'd say that's points to a huge CIS for DD's abilities.


No it is in no way CIS.

Originally posted by dadudemon

You've got that backwards. In versus fights, CIS or PIS is thrown out. That's supposed to be a weakness. It is a weakness. CIS, literally, be damned.



Again, incorrect. CIS is always in play unless specified otherwise. PIS is not in play, but I wonder why you pointed this out as it works against you? Daredevil's senses being messed up even though previously shown that it shouldn't is an example of PIS. If this PIS is removed, then DD's so-called weakness is a non-factor in this fight.

Originally posted by dadudemon

The "pain" showed by DD and the disorientation is made quite clear, is stylized, and is definitely a weakness. Other items that contradict that is just CIS/PIS.


You've got it. Except, you've got it backwards. You are saying it hurt him when the plot called for it when it's the opposite: it didn't hurt him when they plot called for it.


Wrong. There is no way DD being unaffected by gunfire sounds was PIS. DD has been kicking ass for years, you think he only dealt with "no-weapons" situations? Anyone with basic knowledge of the character would know he has taken down countless thugs while they were firing their weapons.

Also more importantly, the gunfight scene precedes all others that you are using as evidence. When discussing PIS, earlier feats are always accounted for first, unless a retcon is involved which is not the case here.

....

With that out of the way, I'd probably give it to Gambit. He has range, and more firepower. If DD gets close, Gambit's chances probably go down a bit, however if manages to land a hit on DD with his charged staff its game-over right there.

Originally posted by Robtard
Logan wasn't some speedster and iirc, Logan was quick enough to knock his ass out with a simple backhand. So no, what you said isn't proof and you're still ignoring the movie-feats rule.

King Pin blocked it, but I'm pretty sure he did hit someone else with it earlier on. Either way, this has nothing to do with your inability to show Gambit being able to dodge the grapple-hook. While I can show that DD can time bullets.

Logan hit him with adamantium, babe And Logan was as quick as DD, don't be stupid.

Again with the grapple hook....is that all you got? Cuz it's getting boring. I keep proving over and over and over and over and over that Gambit can and would avoid it, but you aren't listening. Either you're not paying attention, or you are trolling. Which is it?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Logan hit him with adamantium, babe And Logan was as quick as DD, don't be stupid.

Again with the grapple hook....is that all you got? Cuz it's getting boring. I keep proving over and over and over and over and over that Gambit can and would avoid it, but you aren't listening. Either you're not paying attention, or you are trolling. Which is it?

Gambit still wasn't fast enough to dodge that. DD timed bullets, Logan just takes them and heals, so no, not even close. Also, this is the grappling-hook's rate of speed.

You've yet to prove a thing, as you're not abding the movie-feats rule and are giving Gambit attributes another character possessed.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Logan hit him with adamantium, babe And Logan was as quick as DD, don't be stupid.



You'd have to think about something you've said previously with this in mind...Namely Gambit knocking Wolverine through the wall with the deck of cards. It's perhaps more likely that it was because of Wolverine's Adamantium skeleton that he went through the wall. Considerable extra mass plus more dense and durable material. Perhaps unlikely (or at the very least less likely) that he'd have went through the wall without the Adamantium.

So perhaps that feat wouldn't have the same effect on DD.

Just a thought.

Originally posted by Robtard
Gambit still wasn't fast enough to dodge that. DD timed bullets, Logan just takes them and heals, so no, not even close. Also, this is the grappling-hook's rate of speed.

You've yet to prove a thing, as you're not abding the movie-feats rule and are giving Gambit attributes another character possessed.

DD used the grapple hook attack once against someone slower than Gambit, that's a fact. The grapple hook failed on the slower opponent, that's a fact. Gambit is way faster than said slower opponent, that's a fact.

Are you denying these facts?

Originally posted by jaden101
You'd have to think about something you've said previously with this in mind...Namely Gambit knocking Wolverine through the wall with the deck of cards. It's perhaps more likely that it was because of Wolverine's Adamantium skeleton that he went through the wall. Considerable extra mass plus more dense and durable material. Perhaps unlikely (or at the very least less likely) that he'd have went through the wall without the Adamantium.

So perhaps that feat wouldn't have the same effect on DD.

Just a thought. Of course. DD would end up with a cracked skull, the wall would probably stay intact.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Of course. DD would end up with a cracked skull, the wall would probably stay intact.

Wolverine didn't hit the wall head 1st...It also wouldn't be any different from falling from the same height (about 20ft by the look of it)

Easily survivable and likely without injury...So your original assertion that it would kill DD is most likely wrong.

Although, admittidly, I haven't seen DD so don't know what feats of durability he has to compare with that situation.

Originally posted by jaden101
Wolverine didn't hit the wall head 1st...It also wouldn't be any different from falling from the same height (about 20ft by the look of it)

Easily survivable and likely without injury...So your original assertion that it would kill DD is most likely wrong.

Although, admittidly, I haven't seen DD so don't know what feats of durability he has to compare with that situation. Whiplash, dude.

The rate of speed at which DD would have been travelling when he hits the wall, the whiplash makes his head smash into the wall, likely a cracked skull.

DD has major damage soak, but he hurts, he bleeds, he goes home and pops painkillers.

You should see DD, it's not as bad as people say it is.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Whiplash, dude.

The rate of speed at which DD would have been travelling when he hits the wall, the whiplash makes his head smash into the wall, likely a cracked skull.

DD has major damage soak, but he hurts, he bleeds, he goes home and pops painkillers.

You should see DD, it's not as bad as people say it is.

Still scripting though. Could just as easily say he wouldn't get seriously injured. "Major damage soak" would point in that direction.

Can't say it's a film I'll be in any hurry to see. I'm generally not a fan of comic book movies. Even the ones that most people consider great (Dark Knight, Ironman etc) never mind those which are considered steaming piles of dung.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
DD used the grapple hook attack once against someone slower than Gambit, that's a fact. The grapple hook failed on the slower opponent, that's a fact. Gambit is way faster than said slower opponent, that's a fact.

Are you denying these facts?

You're still ignoring the movie-feats rule; that's a fact.

Originally posted by Placidity
No it is in no way CIS.

Actually, it's the very definition of CIS. Just because you want me to be wrong, doesn't mean what you say will be correct: I have to actually be wrong.




Originally posted by Placidity
Again, incorrect. CIS is always in play unless specified otherwise. PIS is not in play, but I wonder why you pointed this out as it works against you? Daredevil's senses being messed up even though previously shown that it shouldn't is an example of PIS. If this PIS is removed, then DD's so-called weakness is a non-factor in this fight.

No it is not. Each character fights at:

1. Intended ability.

2. Full ability.

CIS and PIS are to be discarded unless otherwise stated. That is a universally understood versus rule at KMC and many other forums. And, if you REALLY want to bark up that tree, all RJ has to say is the CIS is out: on with guns hurting his ears (like it should have.)

You should have at least tried the stupid route AC did and pretend that the CIS was getting disoriented by the explosions...at least it's a tad more logical.

Originally posted by Placidity
Wrong. There is no way DD being unaffected by gunfire sounds was PIS. DD has been kicking ass for years, you think he only dealt with "no-weapons" situations? Anyone with basic knowledge of the character would know he has taken down countless thugs while they were firing their weapons.

Wrong.

Gunfire not disorienting him is a huge example of CIS. If you paid attention at the beginning of the film, it's quite obvious really loud noises are his weakness.

And, you're trying to contradict a point by using...."basic knowledge" which is comic book bullshit. GTF outta wit dat shit.

Originally posted by Placidity
Also more importantly, the gunfight scene precedes all others that you are using as evidence. When discussing PIS, earlier feats are always accounted for first, unless a retcon is involved which is not the case here.

You're incorrect, though. The "hurting ears" and "disorientation" occurs before any of that.


Major fail.

Originally posted by Placidity
With that out of the way, I'd probably give it to Gambit. He has range, and more firepower. If DD gets close, Gambit's chances probably go down a bit, however if manages to land a hit on DD with his charged staff its game-over right there.


Nothing is out of the way. The only thing you succeeded in doing is:

1. Showing a very incorrect understanding of CIS.

2. Limited knowledge of DD, the movie.

3. A fail attempt reference to the comics.

4. Wasting my time.



Your goal was mostly #4 because you like to troll me.

I don't mind because I'm tired of writing about SuSE.


Edit - I now see why I don't come around here, very often. No offense, RJ, but it's either RJ not listening to reason, or everyone ganging up on RJ when he's correct with the occasional troll and awesome thread by Placidity.

Originally posted by dadudemon

Nothing is out of the way. The only thing you succeeded in doing is:

1. Showing a very incorrect understanding of CIS.

2. Limited knowledge of DD, the movie.

3. A fail attempt reference to the comics.

4. Wasting my time.


No. Wrong again. You have no idea what you are talking about.


From KMC Comics VS RULES




As per above:

Originally posted by dadudemon
Actually, it's the very definition of CIS. Just because you want me to be wrong, doesn't mean what you say will be correct: I have to actually be wrong.


Rubbish.

Originally posted by dadudemon


CIS and PIS are to be discarded unless otherwise stated. That is a universally understood versus rule at KMC and many other forums.


Rubbish.

Originally posted by dadudemon

You should have at least tried the stupid route AC did and pretend that the CIS was getting disoriented by the explosions...at least it's a tad more logical.


Rubbish. Clearly shows you don't know what CIS is.

Originally posted by dadudemon

Wrong.


Yes you are.


Summary:


Originally posted by dadudemon

1. Showing a very incorrect understanding of CIS.


You have no understanding of what CIS is, and that it does apply in KMC debates.

Originally posted by dadudemon

2. Limited knowledge of DD, the movie.


Anyone who says gunfire disorientates DD has no knowledge of DD.

Originally posted by dadudemon

3. A fail attempt reference to the comics.


W/e.

Originally posted by dadudemon

4. Wasting my time.


Wasting my time having to explain basic things like CIS to you.

Originally posted by Robtard
You're still ignoring the movie-feats rule; that's a fact. Nah, you're ignoring the pwnage.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Nah, you're ignoring the pwnage.

Go look back to the rule, believe Imp stated "if it didn't happen on screen, it doesn't count."

So you giving Gambit something that King Pin did, isn't allowed here. Not hard to see.

Originally posted by Robtard
Go look back to the rule, believe Imp stated "if it didn't happen on screen, it doesn't count."

So you giving Gambit something that King Pin did, isn't allowed here. Not hard to see. It did happen onscreen, Gambit showed the speed/agility/athleticism needed to avoid the grapple hook. The entire fight with Wolvie is proof of this.

The grapple hook attack happened onscreen, in Daredevil. You and AC brought it into the argument. Gambit is faster than Kingpin is. Kingpin avoided the attack, so Gambit can do so in his sleep. I am giving Gambit nothing of Kingpin's, I am merely saying Gambit is faster than him.

It's so telling how Dudemon blames everyone for doing what only he does.

"This is why I don't come around here.". That's really no incentive to act any different, then. You're a terrible debater. You ignore what suits you and reply to things only to say: "Nah, you're wrong.", even if someone has you beat.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
It did happen onscreen, Gambit showed the speed/agility/athleticism needed to avoid the grapple hook. The entire fight with Wolvie is proof of this.

The grapple hook attack happened onscreen, in Daredevil. You and AC brought it into the argument. Gambit is faster than Kingpin is. Kingpin avoided the attack, so Gambit can do so in his sleep. I am giving Gambit nothing of Kingpin's, I am merely saying Gambit is faster than him.

Daredevil is as fast and as agile as Gambit.

This whole fight, as Bardock said, depends on Gambit's ability to disorientate Daredevil.

I don't believe that's as likely as you claim. Nobody's ignoring "pwnage", because "pwnage" isn't factually occuring.

The church bells, the train; these were continual, prolonged sounds at extremely close range. The explosion was not continual or prolonged.

It was in slow motion and didn't even last long then. The disorientation lasted as his club flew by him and was more or less over by the time it hit Natchios. He wasn't rolling around clutching his ears.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's so telling how Dudemon blames everyone for doing what only he does.

"This is why I don't come around here.". That's really no incentive to act any different, then. You're a terrible debater. You ignore what suits you and reply to things only to say: "Nah, you're wrong.", even if someone has you beat.



Daredevil is as fast and as agile as Gambit.

This whole fight, as Bardock said, depends on Gambit's ability to disorientate Daredevil.

I don't believe that's as likely as you claim. Nobody's ignoring "pwnage", because "pwnage" isn't factually occuring.

The church bells, the train; these were continual, prolonged sounds at extremely close range. The explosion was not continual or prolonged.

It was in slow motion and didn't even last long then. The disorientation lasted as his club flew by him and was more or less over by the time it hit Natchios. He wasn't rolling around clutching his ears.

-AC
Yes, they are close to being on par with each other in speed, if not exactly on par.


I agreed with you already that the inconsistency of certain loud sounds messing with his senses was....well, inconsistent. The bells, the gunshots, etc;

But the one time an explosion occurred in his general vicinity, his radar sense was fried. And it was at least 40 feet away, and much smaller than the explosions that Gambit can potentially create. If there was another scene in which an explosion did NOT mess with his senses, then yeah, I'd agree that MAYBE Gambit's explosions would have zero effect. But, as it stands, the one time there was an explosion, DD was way disoriented.

Bigger explosions, at close range (5, 10, 15 feet, If they do not in fact hit DD), and the effect it has on DD will be that much more severe and long lasting. If Gambit strikes near DD with a charged card and it temporarily disorients DD, many more cards are coming, the staff will be jammed into the ground, DD will be no more.

Originally posted by Placidity
No. Wrong again. You have no idea what you are talking about.


From KMC Comics VS RULES




As per above:

GTF outta here with that comic sh*t.

Even if you try to argue what CIS is, that is missing the entire point, on the most literal level.

Congrats.


And, the real definition of CIS: When a character does or does not do something not within or within their ability, respectively.


Originally posted by Placidity
Rubbish.

Nuh-uh!



Originally posted by Placidity
Rubbish.

Nuh-uh!

Originally posted by Placidity
Rubbish. Clearly shows you don't know what CIS is.

Nuh-uh! Clearly shows that you've missed the point if you think this is an argument about which nerdy definition is more correct.

Clearly shows that you're applying KMC's definition of something that was invented by nerds in the early 00's. (KMC's also coincides with Marvel forum's definition. Did you know that?)



Originally posted by Placidity
Yes you are.

I know you are but what am I?


Summary:




Originally posted by Placidity
You have no understanding of what CIS is, and that it does apply in KMC debates.

You clearly have no idea what the point was and should know better than to pretend that DD's CIS/PIS should be discarded.



Originally posted by Placidity
Anyone who says gunfire disorientates DD has no knowledge of DD.

Anyone who pretends that the comic book version has any place in a movie versus debate, has no knowledge of the movie versus forum rules and also didn't pay attention to the film.

Summary: I know you are but what am I?

Originally posted by Placidity
W/e.

*rolls eyes and flicks hair*

Originally posted by Placidity
Wasting my time having to explain basic things like CIS to you.

Yeah, 'cause explaining CIS is exactly what the point was, right?

Wait, so...Dudemon, are you actually suggesting that gunfire disorientates Daredevil?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Yes, they are close to being on par with each other in speed, if not exactly on par.


I agreed with you already that the inconsistency of certain loud sounds messing with his senses was....well, inconsistent. The bells, the gunshots, etc;

But the one time an explosion occurred in his general vicinity, his radar sense was fried. And it was at least 40 feet away, and much smaller than the explosions that Gambit can potentially create. If there was another scene in which an explosion did NOT mess with his senses, then yeah, I'd agree that MAYBE Gambit's explosions would have zero effect. But, as it stands, the one time there was an explosion, DD was way disoriented.

Bigger explosions, at close range (5, 10, 15 feet, If they do not in fact hit DD), and the effect it has on DD will be that much more severe and long lasting. If Gambit strikes near DD with a charged card and it temporarily disorients DD, many more cards are coming, the staff will be jammed into the ground, DD will be no more.

Yeah, I'm gonna skip the "He will, it will, this will happens." nonsense.

It doesn't need to be zero effect, but it does need to affect him long enough for Gambit to do something about it. Daredevil had recovered by the time his club had flown by him.

Additionally, even in the subway, it's proven that when accosted by loud noise, he can get around it by creating another noise that maps his surroundings out clearer.

Also, from what I remember, Gambit's were not "explosions". There wasn't anything exploding like Bullseye's bike. It was a shockwave. Daredevil's senses work off that kind of thing, hence why he can detect heartbeats.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's so telling how Dudemon blames everyone for doing what only he does.

More trolling by you via baiting. Reported.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"This is why I don't come around here.". That's really no incentive to act any different, then. You're a terrible debater. You ignore what suits you and reply to things only to say: "Nah, you're wrong.", even if someone has you beat.

The opposite is true. You've clearly been beaten but, as usual, refuse to admit it. Instead, you are reverting to more trolling. What a shock.

I'm not baiting you, at all. I addressed you directly, by name.

How could I possibly bait you anyway? Baiting implies that I'm trying to manipulate you into replying to me and I'm not, nor could I. I don't control you.

I guess I'll just continue having my more reasonable discussion with RJ if you can't be civil or sensible about things.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Wait, so...Dudemon, are you actually suggesting that gunfire disorientates Daredevil?



Yeah, I'm gonna skip the "He will, it will, this will happens." nonsense.

It doesn't need to be zero effect, but it does need to affect him long enough for Gambit to do something about it. Daredevil had recovered by the time his club had flown by him.

Additionally, even in the subway, it's proven that when accosted by loud noise, he can get around it by creating another noise that maps his surroundings out clearer.

Also, from what I remember, Gambit's were not "explosions". There wasn't anything exploding like Bullseye's bike. It was a shockwave. Daredevil's senses work off that kind of thing, hence why he can detect heartbeats.

-AC We're talking circles, dude. I know where you stand, you know where I stand. I really don't wanna do this for ten pages, do you?

As for the shockwave thing, Gambit blew an entire alley to shit and threw Logan and Creed back 30 feet with the shockwave of the explosion when he jammed his cane into the ground.

Well, agree to disagree it is then.

-AC

I'm just not in the mood right now, maybe tomorrow haermm

Originally posted by Robtard
Go look back to the rule, believe Imp stated "if it didn't happen on screen, it doesn't count."

So you giving Gambit something that King Pin did, isn't allowed here. Not hard to see.

I understand what both of you are saying.

However, the point of versus debates is to compare two movies.

Obviously, Gambit never defeated DD so by your logic, we can say that Gambit cannot defeat DD because he wasn't seen defeating a superhuman with echo-location. The argument you are using is a slippery-slope.


RJ tried the same thing and it doesn't make for any sort of versus debate, at all.


If you do not think Gambit has the reaction speed to dodge the hook, provie it with an on-screen reflex feat from Gambit: bring up a feat where he doesn't react fast enough.

If RJ can counter with a feat where he reacts faster than that, then your point would be null as we go by best showings, not lowest.



In other words, you (and RJ) need to literally prove whether or not Gambit can dodge, based on King Pin's reaction feat. This isn't the typical "I don't have to prove a negative beacuse that's illogical." That's not how it works when each side can prove their point on the most literal level: either: Gambit has a reaction that is equal to or faster than King Pin's it is greater than King Pin's. It's not really proving a "negative." It's proving a positive.

Actually, the burden of proof is on the person that first claimed that the hook would "hook" Gambit. They have to prove that it goes from point A to point B faster than Gambit's best reaction feat.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not baiting you, at all. I addressed you directly, by name.

How could I possibly bait you anyway? Baiting implies that I'm trying to manipulate you into replying to me and I'm not, nor could I. I don't control you.

I guess I'll just continue having my more reasonable discussion with RJ if you can't be civil or sensible about things.

-AC

Odd that you're pretending to not know what baiting is when you do it all the time. And, being civil and sensible would not be what you're doing.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
It did happen onscreen, Gambit showed the speed/agility/athleticism needed to avoid the grapple hook. The entire fight with Wolvie is proof of this.

The grapple hook attack happened onscreen, in Daredevil. You and AC brought it into the argument. Gambit is faster than Kingpin is. Kingpin avoided the attack, so Gambit can do so in his sleep. I am giving Gambit nothing of Kingpin's, I am merely saying Gambit is faster than him.

From a logical standpoint, I agree with you, but that's not how the rules work here (you know this) and if it suited your argument, you'd follow them to the letter, but you're not now; only because it doesn't suit you.

Originally posted by dadudemon

And, the real definition of CIS: When a character does or does not do something not within or within their ability, respectively.


Actually, I do think that is wrong. That would be PIS, because the character does something (or not) that isn't within their abity (or is) in order to advance the plot, make it work out the way the writer wants it to go. Meaning the stupidity (or unlikely ability) of the character is induced by the needs of the plot.

CIS does make more sense as being seen a stupidity that the character actually has, Batman's "no killing" rule perhaps being a good example.

Of course CIS and PIS have at times been used differently, but honestly this makes the most sense as it means there's actually a valid difference between the two and that difference is derived from the words it stands for.

Ok, this debate has gotten out of hand and some posters have proved incapable of being civil.

To that end, please heed the following declarations.

- Regardless of how it may or may not be used elsewhere, it is clear that dadude's interpretation of CIS does not match how it is used around KMC. We'll stick to how it is used here, thanks, and try not to be so hasty on accusing others of not doing things the way they are done at KMC without checking first.

- That said... it is clear that by the rules of these forums, RJ's claims about Daredevil are in essence correct. It is very clear in the films that explosions stun DD (how that works or does not work with guns is irrelevant- it is not only clear but also exceedingly important to the film that explosions DO disable him), and it is equally clear that Gambit can cause explosions. Argue as much as you like about who hits first, but it it pointless to deny that RJ has invoked a legitimate edge for Gambit.

If you don't like any of that- sorry. Stay out of the thread. Uncivil debates cause restrictions.

Overly hostile posting attitudes are under the spotlight again, so a warning to all there. If you have any responses to the above, make them in private.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Actually, I do think that is wrong. That would be PIS, because the character does something (or not) that isn't within their abity (or is) in order to advance the plot, make it work out the way the writer wants it to go. Meaning the stupidity (or unlikely ability) of the character is induced by the needs of the plot.

CIS does make more sense as being seen a stupidity that the character actually has, Batman's "no killing" rule perhaps being a good example.

Of course CIS and PIS have at times been used differently, but honestly this makes the most sense as it means there's actually a valid difference between the two and that difference is derived from the words it stands for.

CIS becomes PIS when the CIS event furthers PIS.

CIS can also just further the plot, not just something stupid in the plot.


For instance, the plot calls for the hero to discover something about the murderer: he can discover it in one of two ways:

1. Ask for it and get it. (Not PIS.)

2. Beat up people that he shouldn't be able to beat up. (CIS, but still not PIS because he still gets the information required to furthe the plot.)

PIS would be if he got that information from sone that shouldn't have known.


But, Ush has spoken about how it's going to be. I don't care which way you guys want it ...but we do know that Gun shots didn't hurt him. That's stupid and inconsistant. Call it PIS, CIS, or just plain ol' "stupid." That's the point. Don't miss it for the sake of an irrelevant argument.

As I said, RJ; the fact that he was affected by explosions was important to the film/plot.

I personally don't consider plot point induced weaknesses to be consistent, you do. We'll agree to disagree there. It's not a big deal.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
As I said, RJ; the fact that he was affected by explosions was important to the film/plot.

I personally don't consider plot point induced weaknesses to be consistent, you do. We'll agree to disagree there. It's not a big deal.

-AC Well, it's kinda like Force precog. Why didn't Vader sense the Falcon at the battle of Yavin? Or force speed, why didn't the Jedi/Sith use it all the time?

Shit like that bugs me, almost as much as holes in a plot.

What gets me even more riled is when dumb decisions are made. like why did Yoda decide to face Sidious alone? He and Obi should have faced Sidious together, then faced Anakin together.

But I digress, I went WAY off topic with this post, apologies.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And, the real definition of CIS: When a character does or does not do something not within or within their ability, respectively.


Wrong. Find a source that supports what you say (you can't). If you actually genuinely think CIS is what you described as above, then not only are you incorrect, but not very smart. Even based on just logical thinking alone - how can it be due to "Stupidity" that a character shows something NOT within their abilities? Exactly.

The Definition of CIS is the same in any forum, KMC Comics Vs or otherwise, so please don't try to sidetrack a losing argument.

You have been proven wrong beyond doubt and yet you still try to retort with lies and things that just aren't true at all.

What was that thing you said awhile ago about being to accept when you are wrong?

If you want to reply with another pathetic "No my definition is right", please quote a source, otherwise I will assume you admit defeat and are just trolling.

I've already passed judgement there, Placidity. Leave it alone.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I've already passed judgement there, Placidity. Leave it alone.

Yeah, but you don't know his history. He never admits he is wrong even in the face of undeniable evidence. He still hasn't, rather he is only saying he will follow the "incorrect" definition because you (a mod) said so.

Also, whats your opinion on this battle, who wins?

Nonetheless, I said leave it alone and I expect that to be followed. You cannot change how people think in such a way and in trying you will only aggravate things. If you know you are right, then that's all the satisfaction you should need and will ever get. I know the history of veteran posters just fine, btw. Now, no more in this thread on that matter.

I've no idea; I don't know the source material well enough. I'm not a vs. person in any case because when it comes to stories I am more into conceptual style than literally trying to compare abilities, which is disallowed here.

I still say that Gambit loses-- due to his craving for male anus.