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Just how much does speed and reflexes effect a match up when compared to things such as power, strength, durability, intellect, versatility, etc?

In comics?

Barely ever on a typical day to day basis in fights. I mean even the Flash cruises around at low speeds.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
In comics?

Barely ever on a typical day to day basis in fights. I mean even the Flash cruises around at low speeds.

How about under forum settings?

They are very very useful to have even if they are not used that often.

Quite important.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
How about under forum settings?

Depends on what forum. In "CBR" speed is and will always be everything. But "CBR" is a joke. I post a scan of Thor reacting in microseconds etc. and the argument I get is that it's not valid because Thor was not a blur when it happened. I just lol'd and didn't come back to the board.

At a sight like Herochat, speed matters but characters are in their normal mindset so it depends on how prone a character is on using it.

KMC seems to be somewhere in the middle with the Full Capacity rule.

Quite Important.

Unfortunately alot of people believe that just because a character has incredible speed BURSTS doesn't mean they can slow down time a do precise things like the Flash.

It seem that none of those really matter anymore to the extant we take it at KMC.

For example: Thor can be having problem dealing with Wolverine's speed but is able to beat people can move and react at light speed. etc

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Just how much does speed and reflexes effect a match up when compared to things such as power, strength, durability, intellect, versatility, etc? I think in forum settings, its very important

you can have all the power in the world...but what's the use if you can't hit someone

whereas, if you are significantly faster than someone, you can avoid their hits and hit them without getting hit


in comics, speed and reflexes are not nearly as big a factor. but then again, in comics, not being able to fly is also apparently not a big factor seeing the success of hulk against heralds.

Originally posted by kgkg


For example: Thor can be having problem dealing with Wolverine's speed but is able to beat people can move and react at light speed. etc thor is slow that's why. his reaction vs wolverine is a true showcase of his lack of superspeed.

I agree with Kg. At this point, writers most definitely think about telling the story first and foremost.

Originally posted by Starscream M
thor is slow that's why. his reaction vs wolverine is a true showcase of his lack of superspeed.



No his not. If you want I can post multiple instances of Thor showing impressive reflexes.

Consider that maybe, just maybe, the Wolverine fight was just a low showing?

Seriously, worst speed showing I've seen from Thor in the last decade. The last two decades even.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

No his not. If you want I can post multiple instances of Thor showing impressive reflexes.

Consider that maybe, just maybe, the Wolverine fight was just a low showing?

Seriously, worst speed showing I've seen from Thor in the last decade. The last two decades even. show me one instance of him doing anything close to blitzing...

even sentry, who barely has 1/10th the appearance of thor, has far more impressive speed showings.

thor is slow compared to the fast herald class.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
In comics?

Barely ever on a typical day to day basis in fights. I mean even the Flash cruises around at low speeds. Originally posted by JakeTheBank
How about under forum settings? Originally posted by galactusischere
Quite important.

Originally posted by Starscream M
show me one instance of him doing anything close to blitzing...

even sentry, who barely has 1/10th the appearance of thor, has far more impressive speed showings.

thor is slow compared to the fast herald class.

Thor's never blitzed anyone in the typical I leave multiple after image fashion.

Fortunately though, his moved to fast for character's to touch him in the past, or reacted/attacked at extremely fast speeds which is enough.

You won't see anyone argue that Thor will blitz an opponent but you will see someone argue that Thor is not going to be overwhelmed or be defeated by someone like say, Norrin or Clark solely because of their speed.

What's Sentry's best speed feat? From what I can tell, they're all traveling speed feats.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor's never blitzed anyone in the typical I leave multiple after image fashion.

Fortunately though, his moved to fast for character's to touch him in the past, or reacted/attacked at extremely fast speeds which is enough.

You won't see anyone argue that Thor will blitz an opponent but you will see someone argue that Thor is not going to be overwhelmed or be defeated by someone like say, Norrin or Clark solely because of their speed.

What's Sentry's best speed feat? From what I can tell, they're all traveling speed feats. listen, just because thor can react to speedy opponents in comics does not mean he can do so on KMC.

he does in comics because speedsters are neutered in comics, flash, superman etc often play down to slower opponents...to make the comic interesting.

just like Hulk in comics handles flying heralds fine...whereas you wouldn't use that to argue he would do so on KMC.

Originally posted by Starscream M
show me one instance of him doing anything close to blitzing...

even sentry, who barely has 1/10th the appearance of thor, has far more impressive speed showings.

thor is slow compared to the fast herald class.
It doesn't matter that he hasn't blitzed an opponent, all that matters is whether or not he has shown super speed. And Thor HAS shown super speed on multiple occasions...

He chased down Hermes!

Originally posted by Starscream M
listen, just because thor can react to speedy opponents in comics does not mean he can do so on KMC.

he does in comics because speedsters are neutered in comics, flash, superman etc often play down to slower opponents...to make the comic interesting.

just like Hulk in comics handles flying heralds fine...whereas you wouldn't use that to argue he would do so on KMC.

He reacts to speedy opponents not because the writers somehow gimp his enemies but because he has what's needed to reacted to opponents with super speed; his own super speed. Which on top of his reflexes, means he can handle shit like light speed just fine.

That's why you have him doing shit, like moving too fast for Heimdall to see, fighting at light speed against Skuttlebutt in space, reacting at microsecond speeds etc.

Originally posted by darthgoober
It doesn't matter that he hasn't blitzed an opponent, all that matters is whether or not he has shown super speed. And Thor HAS shown super speed on multiple occasions... is there anyone who hasn't shown superspeed then?

does hulk have superspeed as well?

juggernaut?

If you don't have to showcase offensive superspeed, then I could prob make the case for everyone in comics to have superspeed, as virtually every character has had some impressive reaction speed feat.

without speed and reflexes you wouldnt be able to move so yes they are important always

Originally posted by the ninjak
He chased down Hermes!

facepalm

Originally posted by Starscream M
is there anyone who hasn't shown superspeed then?

does hulk have superspeed as well?

juggernaut?

If you don't have to showcase offensive superspeed, then I could prob make the case for everyone in comics to have superspeed, as virtually every character has had some impressive reaction speed feat.
I'm not just talking about reaction feats(though they ARE enough IMO), I'm talking about him doing things at superspeed, multiple images and all...

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/3656/thorspeed014aw.jpg

And befor you say something to the effect of "Well that feat's not on par with someone like Superman's" let me just say that I'm not claiming that it is. I'm just showing it in the hopes that you quit saying rediculous things like "his fight with Wolverine proves that he's slow and doesn't have super speed".

Or this:
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/th_ReactsAsBlur.jpg

Even this:
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/th_SuperSpeed.jpg

I mean if all we're looking for is wavy lines and blurry after images.

Thor chasing pigeons lol

Thor vs Hulk was/is a major arc, and he hasn't shown any speed or reaction speed in those fights.

Originally posted by Placidity
Thor vs Hulk was/is a major arc, and he hasn't shown any speed or reaction speed in those fights.
And?

It's obvious Thor has superspeed and crazy reflexes. No one is suggesting that he has them in the same manner Superman does, but he has enough of both to suggest that he won't get overwhelmed by sheer speed. I don't even know where that myth originated from.

anything from this century?

the scan goober posted was a legit speedblitz scan imo, but its a onetime showing from way way too long ago to still hold up without some recent displays

I mean, Sentry, a very new character, already has more demonstrable speed feats than thor

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
It's obvious Thor has superspeed and crazy reflexes. No one is suggesting that he has them in the same manner Superman does, but he has enough of both to suggest that he won't get overwhelmed by sheer speed. I don't even know where that myth originated from. so do you think hulk would be overwhelmed by sheer speed? do you think anyone in comics would be overwhelmed by sheer speed...because I guarantee you that every established character in comics has impressive speed reaction feats

by that logic, everyone has superspeed and no one will be overwhelmed by speed.

Originally posted by Placidity
Thor vs Hulk was/is a major arc, and he hasn't shown any speed or reaction speed in those fights.

".....There can be no doubt as to who has greater speed!"

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_hulkthor1fight8.jpg

"Huh??! Where he go??"

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_hulkthor1fight9.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_hulkthor1fight10.jpg

Thor can use speed against the Hulk when he has to or wants to.

Originally posted by Starscream M
anything from this century?

the scan goober posted was a legit speedblitz scan imo, but its a onetime showing from way way too long ago to still hold up without some recent displays

I mean, Sentry, a very new character, already has more demonstrable speed feats than thor

facepalm

Originally posted by Starscream M
so do you think hulk would be overwhelmed by sheer speed? do you think anyone in comics would be overwhelmed by sheer speed...because I guarantee you that every established character in comics has impressive speed reaction feats

by that logic, everyone has superspeed and no one will be overwhelmed by speed.

I do think that speed is often overrated and some posters do believe it translates into instant victory.

As far as Thor's own reflexes and superspeed goes, he has numerous on panel depictions of being able to hit both incredibly fast moving targets as well as move fast on his own. When said instances are brought up, they're usually dismissed as PIS or being "too old" to count when as far as I know, all of his feats are valid, especially since Thor hasn't been retconned or explicitly reduced in power aside from gaining/losing the OF.

The idea that because Thor doesn't explicitly become a blur of motion while traveling or "omgz speedblitz combo to ko" somehow equaling "lawlz, Thor is slow and he's can't people who r fast and shit!" is retarded, plain and simple. It's correct in assuming that Thor isn't know for being a "speedy" kind of character, but completely incorrect to assume that because he doesn't display overt speed feats ala Superman/Sentry/Glads/Other A-Typical Hero types he gets overwhelmed by speed in a forum setting.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I do think that speed is often overrated and some posters do believe it translates into instant victory.

As far as Thor's own reflexes and superspeed goes, he has numerous on panel depictions of being able to hit both incredibly fast moving targets as well as move fast on his own. When said instances are brought up, they're usually dismissed as PIS or being "too old" to count when as far as I know, all of his feats are valid, especially since Thor hasn't been retconned or explicitly reduced in power aside from gaining/losing the OF.

The idea that because Thor doesn't explicitly become a blur of motion while traveling or "omgz speedblitz combo to ko" somehow equaling "lawlz, Thor is slow and he's can't people who r fast and shit!" is retarded, plain and simple. It's correct in assuming that Thor isn't know for being a "speedy" kind of character, but completely incorrect to assume that because he doesn't display overt speed feats ala Superman/Sentry/Glads/Other A-Typical Hero types he gets overwhelmed by speed in a forum setting. I never said speed would spell instant victory over thor, but I do believe it to be an major and perhaps decisive factor in a hypothetical fight between Superman and Thor under KMC settings

in a comic, no doubt Superman wouldn't even blitz thor...nor would thor use alot of his hammer powers.

but on KMC, thor would use such powers and superman would attempt speedblitzes. would thor be completely overwhelmed...most likely not. but I think superman would gain enough of an edge with his speed to eventually win.

the thing is, comic writers make it very clear who the fast characters are (as you list, ie superman, sentry, gladiator). don't you find it odd that a new character like sentry already is far more established in the speed department than thor is...well, its not odd if you accept that speed isn't thor's strength. yes, he has some reaction feats against speed, and maybe 30 years ago he has some onetime feats of debatable speed, but anyone who reads thor's comics will not claim him to be a speedy character whereas if you read even 2 or 3 of sentry's comics, you know he's damn fast.

that difference doesn't play a huge role in comicbook fights because speed is underrated in comics. On KMC however, I believe speed becomes a much bigger factor.

its for the same reason why hulk never seems to suffer a disadvantage in comics in terms of his mobility, but in a KMC fight, he is obviously outclassed in mobility...wouldn't you agree?

Originally posted by Starscream M
I never said speed would spell instant victory over thor, but I do believe it to be an major and perhaps decisive factor in a hypothetical fight between Superman and Thor under KMC settings

in a comic, no doubt Superman wouldn't even blitz thor...nor would thor use alot of his hammer powers.

but on KMC, thor would use such powers and superman would attempt speedblitzes. would thor be completely overwhelmed...most likely not. but I think superman would gain enough of an edge with his speed to eventually win.

the thing is, comic writers make it very clear who the fast characters are (as you list, ie superman, sentry, gladiator). don't you find it odd that a new character like sentry already is far more established in the speed department than thor is...well, its not odd if you accept that speed isn't thor's strength. yes, he has some reaction feats against speed, and maybe 30 years ago he has some onetime feats of debatable speed, but anyone who reads thor's comics will not claim him to be a speedy character whereas if you read even 2 or 3 of sentry's comics, you know he's damn fast.

that difference doesn't play a huge role in comicbook fights because speed is underrated in comics. On KMC however, I believe speed becomes a much bigger factor.

its for the same reason why hulk never seems to suffer a disadvantage in comics in terms of his mobility, but in a KMC fight, he is obviously outclassed in mobility...wouldn't you agree?

Agreeing would mean accepting defeat.

Excellent post, great points and reasoning.

Originally posted by Starscream M
I never said speed would spell instant victory over thor, but I do believe it to be an major and perhaps decisive factor in a hypothetical fight between Superman and Thor under KMC settings

in a comic, no doubt Superman wouldn't even blitz thor...nor would thor use alot of his hammer powers.

but on KMC, thor would use such powers and superman would attempt speedblitzes. would thor be completely overwhelmed...most likely not. but I think superman would gain enough of an edge with his speed to eventually win.

the thing is, comic writers make it very clear who the fast characters are (as you list, ie superman, sentry, gladiator). don't you find it odd that a new character like sentry already is far more established in the speed department than thor is...well, its not odd if you accept that speed isn't thor's strength. yes, he has some reaction feats against speed, and maybe 30 years ago he has some onetime feats of debatable speed, but anyone who reads thor's comics will not claim him to be a speedy character whereas if you read even 2 or 3 of sentry's comics, you know he's damn fast.

that difference doesn't play a huge role in comicbook fights because speed is underrated in comics. On KMC however, I believe speed becomes a much bigger factor.

its for the same reason why hulk never seems to suffer a disadvantage in comics in terms of his mobility, but in a KMC fight, he is obviously outclassed in mobility...wouldn't you agree?

The problem with what you're saying as far as Superman using speed and Thor using exotic hammer powers is more of a CIS thing than anything. Under forum rules they fight at the best of their ability, yes, but still in character. Thor will brawl more often than not, but his brawling WILL be as good as it ever has been shown outside of an amp or PIS. Likewise, Superman will brawl with some HV or superbreath thrown in, but it WILL be to the best of his ability.

Again the idea that Thor doesn't use superspeed for the purposes of moving very fast in terms of transportation (usually) or fly about a dozen or so fists in a blur equaling he doesn't have superspeed and is disadvantaged against characters with superspeed that use it more overtly than him is ridiculous. It's even more ridiculous when you begin to factor in Thor's skill and other powerset and the fact he's not stupid. I mean, if Thor - for some reason - can't tag a vastly moving target by his preferred (see: wailing with Mjolnir) method, why wouldn't he spin the hammer in a defensive arc as he's been shown to do god knows how many times on panel? Why wouldn't he just start raining lightning bolts around? Why wouldn't he omniblast? By that very same token, if Superman is trading blow for blow with Thor and is feeling the effects of Thor's enchanted weapon, why would Superman just shrug it off and continue to do so instead of changing things up? I'd like to think both characters are smart enough to, y'know, change tactics before they get KOed and I know both are good enough to do so before that happens, anyway.

As far as Hulk goes, he's been alluded or outright stated to have a preternatural ability to hit very fast moving targets. And even he's not so stupid (usually) to repeatedly allow himself to be struck by a moving target without regrouping or thunderclapping or something similar.

It's like people, and it's disturbing to see, honestly believe that combo-to-ko bullshit. That once a fast character begins to strike a character who is slower than him, OH SHIT! The fight's over.

so jake, are there any characters you can think of who would get overwhelmed by a speedblitz?

Originally posted by Starscream M
so jake, are there any characters you can think of who would get overwhelmed by a speedblitz?

It depends on who and who, obviously.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

It's like people, and it's disturbing to see, honestly believe that combo-to-ko bullshit. That once a fast character begins to strike a character who is slower than him, OH SHIT! The fight's over.

There is nothing conceptually wrong about "Combo-to-KO", but how it is applied is quite specific to each matchup/battle.

If I had even low-level Superspeed and say we are both average humans with same strength and durability, whats wrong with the theory that if I get the first heavy hit on you, that I couldn't then continue pummeling you til you were out cold? If someone punched you hard in the face, would you be able to immediately retaliate? No, you'd be momentarily stunned, and the chances of recovering is close to none if I repeatedly kept punching you in the head with my super speed.

I think most people's objection to this theory is because it would spell an easy and almost certain defeat against their character in some fights. Again, of course, whether this is viable or not depends on the specific matchup. But for the most part, if the person receiving the super speed blows doesn't have any other powers other than comparable strength and durability, then its not looking good for them.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
It depends on who and who, obviously. name one herald level character who WOULD be speedblitzed by superman

Originally posted by Starscream M
thor is slow that's why. his reaction vs wolverine is a true showcase of his lack of superspeed. Ok lets say you are correct. This would mean that Thor should lose to all the Superman like characters who have say faster than speed of sound reflex which is hardly the case.

Which is what I said very relevant that many factors are simply ignored or dumbed down in comics.

Originally posted by Starscream M
name one herald level character who WOULD be speedblitzed by superman



What the hell would that prove? That the speedblitz is the beginning and end of forum fights?

Mongul for one.

Originally posted by kgkg
Ok lets say you are correct. This would mean that Thor should lose to all the Superman like characters who have say faster than speed of sound reflex which is hardly the case.

Which is what I said very relevant that many factors are simply ignored or dumbed down in comics. many on KMC would say hulk should lose to majority of flying herald characters, but he doesn't in comics.

so does the fact that hulk does so well against much more mobile heralds in comics mean he would have the same success on KMC?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank


What the hell would that prove? That the speedblitz is the beginning and end of forum fights?

Mongul for one. no, my point was that I think you believe speed to be a very small factor, irregardless of the characters being discussed.

and the fact is, Mongul prob has just as many if not more speed feats than thor when you account for their respective number of comic book appearances...so the fact that you think he can be speedblitzed but thor cannot would seem inconsistent.

Originally posted by Starscream M
no, my point was that I think you believe speed to be a very small factor, irregardless of the characters being discussed.

and the fact is, Mongul prob has just as many if not more speed feats than thor when you account for their respective number of comic book appearances...so the fact that you think he can be speedblitzed but thor cannot would seem inconsistent.

Your point is wrong as I said it depends on the characters being used, something you even quoted me saying.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
It depends on who and who, obviously.

And the fact is, Mongul already got his ass kicked by Superman, and a Superman using his speed. And what are these great speed feats of Mongul? Enlighten me.

Having speed, even great speed, doesn't translate into a auto-win or even a huge advantage when the other character has a variety of powers/skills/abilities to use to counter or negate said advantage.

Or do you not understand that?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Your point is wrong as I said it depends on the characters being used, something you even quoted me saying.



And the fact is, Mongul already got his ass kicked by Superman, and a Superman using his speed. And what are these great speed feats of Mongul? Enlighten me.

Having speed, even great speed, doesn't translate into a auto-win or even a huge advantage when the other character has a variety of powers/skills/abilities to use to counter or negate said advantage.

Or do you not understand that? what use is abilities if you don't have speed?

anyways, we're going to have to agree to differ on this.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

Having speed, even great speed, doesn't translate into a auto-win or even a huge advantage when the other character has a variety of powers/skills/abilities to use to counter or negate said advantage.

Or do you not understand that?

No one said it was auto-win, rather he was trying to make an argument that speed has a greater significance then people want to admit.

In regards to Superman vs Thor, what powers does Thor have that will allow him to nullify the speedblitz when the fight starts? On KMC, standard starting distance apart is 500m, which is like virtually nothing for someone with Superman's speed. How will he counter the Combo-to-KO?

Originally posted by Placidity
No one said it was auto-win, rather he was trying to make an argument that speed has a greater significance then people want to admit.

In regards to Superman vs Thor, what powers does Thor have that will allow him to nullify the speedblitz when the fight starts? On KMC, standard starting distance apart is 500m, which is like virtually nothing for someone with Superman's speed. How will he counter the Combo-to-KO?

This scenario requires Superman speedblitz's Thor at the beginning of the match at maximum speed and assumes that Thor won't be able to defend himself against someone in his weight class striking him multiple times to do anything noteworthy, which in essence, ignores his feats and showings - old or not. It also ignores the fact that his durability is up to par to guarentee he doesn't all of sudden get "stunned" to the point he can't do anything to defend himself mid-barrage including using Mjolnir in a defensive arc, his powers, etc.

In short, it assumes too many variables to ensure that it's a unbeatable strategy for Superman to rely on.

The fact that you are, in a way, humoring the combo-to-ko is sad.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

The fact that you are, in a way, humoring the combo-to-ko is sad.

I've already posted my thoughts on the Combo-to-KO theory a few posts back which you may or may not have read.

If you feel there is something wrong with the analysis, please respond to that directly.

Originally posted by Placidity
I've already posted my thoughts on the Combo-to-KO theory a few posts back which you may or may not have read.

If you feel there is something wrong with the analysis, please respond to that directly.

The thing that's wrong with Combo-to-KO, besides the fact that the person who coined the term is viewed as a joke by most posters is the following.

You're basically assuming several specific things in order for this to pan out successfully.

1.) The "combo-er" possesses sufficient speed to completely overwhelm the "combo-ee".
2.) The combo-er immeadiately uses full speed and power from the onset of the match dashing toward the combo-ee, who has next to no relevant speed showings or reflex showings to warrant he can defend from the upcoming onslaught.
3.) Once the first strike connects, it causes a massive stun effect which not only makes the target too stunned to react/adequately defend themselves, but leaves them open to subsequent attacks.
4.) The process is repeated numerous times.
5.) The "combo-to-ko" is even in character enough for the person using it to validate it as a strategy likely enough to happen for a majority, thereby giving the person intiating it the majority.

It's a faulty line of reasoning simply because it hinges too much on (in this case) Superman using this method of attack - which, if he's in character - I have yet to see him do a majority of times against a target while at the same time lowballing Thor's defenses and showings of speed and reflexes to ensure Superman does hit first, and continuously strikes Thor, who is far too slow and staggered to defend himself.

It's a farce.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

You're basically assuming several specific things in order for this to pan out successfully.


I did say its a case by case basis did I not?

Here you do make a good list of requirements for Combo-to-KO to work, good job.


Originally posted by JakeTheBank

1.) The "combo-er" possesses sufficient speed to completely overwhelm the "combo-ee".


Agree. IMO, Superman is sufficiently faster than Thor to carry out the Combo-to-KO. You may disagree and say Thor is fast enough for Superman, but that does not discredit the Combo-to-KO theory in anyway.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

2.) The combo-er immeadiately uses full speed and power from the onset of the match dashing toward the combo-ee, who has next to no relevant speed showings or reflex showings to warrant he can defend from the upcoming onslaught.


Combo-er using full speed is a given in MY VIEW of KMC fights. I'm sick of characters holding back and not using one of their main attributes for NO REASON. Only reason anyone who has that level of immense speed and NOT use it is quite frankly really stupid. How you interpret that is up to you.

As for the second part of the statement, Starscream has sufficiently covered his view on that, and I agree with it.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

3.) Once the first strike connects, it causes a massive stun effect which not only makes the target too stunned to react/adequately defend themselves, but leaves them open to subsequent attacks.


Correct. Why would you assume otherwise if the two characters are of comparable strength and durability unless the character receiving the blitz had other relevant powers to aid his situation?

Lets go with Superman vs Thor again. Superman launches a barrage of attacks on Thor. Now Superman is not as fast as Flash, but even punching at half Flash's speed would quickly knock anyone out. Now lets go with your assumption - that Thor can withstand the blows and quickly hits Superman back. How does that help Thor if you use this kind of logic? By your logic, Superman would recover just as quickly and continue his speed pummeling of Thor. In the end its Superman punching Thor many times while Thor manages to hit him back a few times.


Originally posted by JakeTheBank

4.) The process is repeated numerous times.


No different to your point above, neither is my response.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

5.) The "combo-to-ko" is even in character enough for the person using it to validate it as a strategy likely enough to happen for a majority, thereby giving the person intiating it the majority.


Combo-to-KO is as likely as a speed blitz. Some people argue Superman doesn't really speed blitz a lot. I say its due to PIS. If you have the speed to punch someone hundreds or thousands of times a second why would you not and instead use human speed punches?

I call PIS, you can disagree, thats fine.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

It's a faulty line of reasoning simply because it hinges too much on (in this case) Superman using this method of attack - which, if he's in character - I have yet to see him do a majority of times against a target while at the same time lowballing Thor's defenses and showings of speed and reflexes to ensure Superman does hit first, and continuously strikes Thor, who is far too slow and staggered to defend himself.


Okay I get it - for the Combo-to-KO theory to apply, it needs to meet some requirements. How does that invalidate the theory at all? It doesn't.
You may disagree that it might not work in Superman vs Thor specifically because you think Superman isn't fast enough, but the theory could be in play in many other matchups.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

It's a farce.

Nope. What you are disagreeing with are the the requirements don't match regarding Superman vs Thor, not that the actually theory is not sound.

I voted quite important. How effective combat super speed is seem to vary more than say strength or skill. It is a big factor but less so in comics than it would be in the real world. Many are who are slower are able to deal with it trough skill, hand speed, enhanced senses or combination thereof.

Originally posted by Placidity
I did say its a case by case basis did I not?

Here you do make a good list of requirements for Combo-to-KO to work, good job.




Agree. IMO, Superman is sufficiently faster than Thor to carry out the Combo-to-KO. You may disagree and say Thor is fast enough for Superman, but that does not discredit the Combo-to-KO theory in anyway.



Combo-er using full speed is a given in MY VIEW of KMC fights. I'm sick of characters holding back and not using one of their main attributes for NO REASON. Only reason anyone who has that level of immense speed and NOT use it is quite frankly really stupid. How you interpret that is up to you.

As for the second part of the statement, Starscream has sufficiently covered his view on that, and I agree with it.



Correct. Why would you assume otherwise if the two characters are of comparable strength and durability unless the character receiving the blitz had other relevant powers to aid his situation?

Lets go with Superman vs Thor again. Superman launches a barrage of attacks on Thor. Now Superman is not as far as Flash, but even punching at half Flash's speed would quickly knock anyone out. Now lets go with your assumption - that Thor can withstand the blows and quickly hits Superman back. How does that help Thor if you use this kind of logic? By your logic, Superman would recover just as quickly and continue his speed pummeling of Thor. In the end its Superman punching Thor many times while Thor manages to hit him back a few times.




No different to your point above, neither is my response.



Combo-to-KO is as likely as a speed blitz. Some people argue Superman doesn't really speed blitz a lot. I say its due to PIS. If you have the speed to punch someone hundreds or thousands of times a second why would you not and instead use human speed punches?

I call PIS, you can disagree, thats fine.



Okay I get it - for the Combo-to-KO theory to apply, it needs to meet some requirements. How does that invalidate the theory at all? It doesn't.
You may disagree that it might not work in Superman vs Thor specifically because you think Superman isn't fast enough, but the theory could be in play in many other matchups.



Nope. What you are disagreeing with are the the requirements don't match regarding Superman vs Thor, not that the actually theory is not sound.

I guess the main thing we're disagreeing on is the fact that Superman and his usage of speed being PIS or CIS. Personally, I see as it CIS. He has the tools to do them, but he just doesn't. Nothing plot influenced about it because he has done it before, just not often enough to claim "Hey, he does that every match". Same principal with the Godblast. Thor could, in theory, unleash a Godblast whenever he feels like it. Problem is, he doesn't feel like it all the time. Whether you like it or not and whether I like it or not, characters fight in character. A lot of posters essentially debate powersets against each other, instead of the character using them. And a good amount attribute seldom used powers or techniques as a surefire advantage or reasoning for winning a match.

So, yeah, in a nutshell in order for combo-to-ko to work, you basically have to assume a lot for it to be viable for Character A against Character B. In the case of Thor versus Superman, you essentially have to have Superman use something he seldom does (ie. out of character), ignore Thor's relevant speed/reflex showings (which you really can't dispute as ODG did a good job of cataloging a large number and variety of them) and assume that Thor, once stunned, can't find it within himself to react/do anything while stunned.

Can combo-to-ko work? Sure, it can, but in this specific example of Thor and Superman, it's not a feasible method of winning for Superman.

Superman v hulk? Supes speed is way too high
Thor v superman... That's arguable...

Do we have scans of superman punching ftl? Or are they just... A lit of punches with no measurable quantity?

And lemme throw in an argument some will find arguable irrelevant... But ares is up Thor with Thor.. And ares showed that he had normal reaction times even in "planck time"...

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I guess the main thing we're disagreeing on is the fact that Superman and his usage of speed being PIS or CIS. Personally, I see as it CIS. He has the tools to do them, but he just doesn't. Nothing plot influenced about it because he has done it before, just not often enough to claim "Hey, he does that every match". Same principal with the Godblast. Thor could, in theory, unleash a Godblast whenever he feels like it. Problem is, he doesn't feel like it all the time. Whether you like it or not and whether I like it or not, characters fight in character.


Good observation. I like it since it really narrows down the debate to the crucial points, otherwise it kinda gets messy.

However, once you've simplified it down to this, there really isn't room for debate, just a "agree to disagree" situation which isn't all bad, but I like debating lol.

There is something that bugs me about your reasoning though. You said Thor doesn't use his Godblast most of the time because he doesn't "feel" like it. When you put it that way, I would say you are actually saying its more PIS than CIS... because neither Superman nor Thor is stupid. The real question is, why would he not use it if he wanted to win a fight, most of the time with great stakes on the line and he KNOWS that if uses it, he would almost certainly win the fight?

Originally posted by Placidity
Good observation. I like it since it really narrows down the debate to the crucial points, otherwise it kinda gets messy.

However, once you've simplified it down to this, there really isn't room for debate, just a "agree to disagree" situation which isn't all bad, but I like debating lol.

There is something that bugs me about your reasoning though. You said Thor doesn't use his Godblast most of the time because he doesn't "feel" like it. When you put it that way, I would say you are actually saying its more PIS than CIS... because neither Superman nor Thor is stupid. The real question is, why would he not use it if he wanted to win a fight, most of the time with great stakes on the line and he KNOWS that if uses it, he would almost certainly win the fight?

Yeah, I can understand where you are coming from, certainly, and are using reasonable methods to back up your claims, which I respect.

As far as the not "feeling" like it, I admit it was probably a bad choice of words on my part. The main reason why Thor doesn't use the Godblast often is because it takes a moment or two to be released (something that he really can't afford to do against some opponents, especially at the very beginning of the fight) and the fact it takes significant energy from him to do so. IMO, it's far better to save the Godblast for a situation when things are most dire and everything else has failed; why bust our your most powerful attack at the expense of stamina and vigor when you could use much less energy and exertion just beating the crap out of something with your bare hands. It's essentially a judgment call for him.

Originally posted by rotiart
Superman v hulk? Supes speed is way too high
Thor v superman... That's arguable...


Okay, this brings up another argument I've been trying to get out recently. Not quite on-topic, but anyway...

If Thor can react to Superman's immense speed in a reasonable manner, why did he struggle with Hulk H2H?

My answer is PIS against Thor. My intention is to show that Hulk beating Thor in any form is the biggest PIS feat ever, and that people should not use his fights to hype up Hulk. Truth is, Hulk is tiers below the likes of Thor not only in Speed, but Strength and Durability. Thats right folks, I'm here to crush any delusions surrounding Hulk.

Originally posted by Placidity
Okay, this brings up another argument I've been trying to get out recently. Not quite on-topic, but anyway...

If Thor can react to Superman's immense speed in a reasonable manner, why did he struggle with Hulk H2H?

My answer is PIS against Thor. My intention is to show that Hulk beating Thor in any form is the biggest PIS feat ever, and that people should not use his fights to hype up Hulk. Truth is, Hulk is tiers below the likes of Thor not only in Speed, but Strength and Durability. Thats right folks, I'm here to crush any delusions surrounding Hulk.

Honestly, and it's not a very popular view point, but Thor's showings against Hulk are pretty much written to be in favor of Hulk as much as possible. Thor has the tools, powers, and abilities to drop Hulk pretty much whenever he wants to, only...he doesn't. I think it's because Hulk somehow affects Thor's pride to want to fight him on as even terms as possible and come out the victor so he can, without a doubt, be dubbed Hulk's superior. I guess that's as much PIS as it is CIS, because generally speaking, whenever Thor fights Hulk, all of sudden he insists on brawling with a creature whose main advantage is brawling and back and forth slugfests.

I personally don't cite Thor's vs. battles with Hulk as a method for winning against people like Superman aside from the fact that Hulk amps like crazy while he gets mad - as it's his core powerset - and Thor's base strength is able to match Hulk while still fighting down to his level.

You could say Hulk makes pretty much everybody that fights him job out to him (WWH is clear evidence of that and I think Hulk even says to Trauma, who took the shape of Juggernaut, "Didn't I job you out last week?" or that Marvel desperately wants their strong brick dude to look good against anyone who fights him. Personally, given Thor's high end and repeated feats, provided he actually fights Hulk outside of Hulk's terms, he'd beat him pretty much every single time.

Again, it's not a popular view (as I'm sure some Hulk fan will call me out on it or something), but it's definetly something to think about.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Just how much does speed and reflexes effect a match up when compared to things such as power, strength, durability, intellect, versatility, etc?

Batman would be dead without them, that makes them pretty frickin' important dontcherthink?

depends on the level of disparity. if it's Spiderman vs Juggernaut or say Nova (w/Worldmind) vs Hulk, then I'd say pretty important, because it would guarantee a low hit-connection rate for Juggernaut and Hulk respectively.

but if its characters broadly within the same class, then it can become marginal, say between Flash and Surfer, and other factors trump (durability, power, blast range and radius ... etc).

I think the classifying of characters in speed/reflex terms is vital though. for instance, Nova seems to be an FTL character but, when he came up against Surfer, he literally could not see Surfer at all, because Surfer is so many orders faster. yet Juggernaut will never have that problem with Spiderman or The Hulk, he'll be able to see them both, just not able to react to them at such a speed as to put them on the defensive.

so ... complicated question

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Thor could, in theory, unleash a Godblast whenever he feels like it. thor's godblast is useless in fights against mobile fighters...he has to charge it and aim it....virtually anyone with any speed would avoid it

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Thor has the tools, powers, and abilities to drop Hulk pretty much whenever he wants to, only...he doesn't. I think it's because Hulk somehow affects Thor's pride to want to fight him on as even terms as possible and come out the victor so he can, without a doubt, be dubbed Hulk's superior.

um, its not just the case vs thor though...hulk vs sentry was the same. are you saying hulk affects sentry's pride as well?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Just how much does speed and reflexes effect a match up when compared to things such as power, strength, durability, intellect, versatility, etc?

i think it's just as important as the others. the only problem that all the speed in the world won't help you if you can't (or in some cases won't) apply it properly.

Originally posted by Starscream M
thor's godblast is useless in fights against mobile fighters...he has to charge it and aim it....virtually anyone with any speed would avoid it

except he can do it omnidirectional like in his fight with Durok

Originally posted by Warlord
except he can do it omnidirectional like in his fight with Durok was it a godblast? I would like to see the scan if possible. and it must not be completely omnidirectional or it would hit himself.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i think it's just as important as the others. the only problem that all the speed in the world won't help you if you can't (or in some cases won't) apply it properly. superman can and would in a kmc fight imo.

Originally posted by Starscream M
was it a godblast? I would like to see the scan if possible. and it must not be completely omnidirectional or it would hit himself.

how could it hit himself?
it was originating from his body...his own divine energies

Originally posted by Starscream M
superman can and would in a kmc fight imo.

depends entirely on who he's fighting.

eventually yes, he would have to, but sometimes he'll take a lot longer than he would with others...

Originally posted by -Pr-
depends entirely on who he's fighting.
well yeah...but if he's fighting someone who's going to present a challenge (ie Thor), I have no doubt Superman will resort to speed pretty early on in their fight

Originally posted by Starscream M
well yeah...but if he's fighting someone who's going to present a challenge (ie Thor), I have no doubt Superman will resort to speed pretty early on in their fight

not really. For one, Thor is more likely to fight fair than say, Doomsday or Brainiac would, meaning Superman would want to fight fair too. If Thor started pulling out some magic and such, THEN (and only then) could i see Superman resorting to his speed.

and even then, he's bound to stand there and take a shot just to see if he can tank it, as he does with most people (and usually succeeds).

Originally posted by -Pr-
not really. For one, Thor is more likely to fight fair than say, Doomsday or Brainiac would, meaning Superman would want to fight fair too. If Thor started pulling out some magic and such, THEN (and only then) could i see Superman resorting to his speed.

and even then, he's bound to stand there and take a shot just to see if he can tank it, as he does with most people (and usually succeeds). I'm not sure why you would consider using superspeed as being unfair

sure, the fight starts off with them throwing punches, but eventually thor will unleash a energy attack or lightning storm...at that instant, superman goes superspeed to avoid it and then continues his speed to blitz thor

thats how I see it.

Originally posted by Starscream M
I'm not sure why you would consider using superspeed as being unfair

sure, the fight starts off with them throwing punches, but eventually thor will unleash a energy attack or lightning storm...at that instant, superman goes superspeed to avoid it and then continues his speed to blitz thor

thats how I see it.

because Superman is faster. If Thor wants to duke it out, then Superman would most likely decide to duke it out with him. Superman is reactionary, he's not the type to initiate something UNLESS its against a villain/person he's fought before. and by this, im assuming they've never fought before and we're not including JLA/Avengers.

no, he wouldn't. he'd stand there and see how much it hurts when it hit him. This is the guy that has taken the OB and Shazam's lightning. He can handle one blast of magical lightning to see how much it stings. After that? Sure, he'd dodge it.

stop underrating superman, Pr!

Originally posted by Starscream M
stop underrating superman, Pr!

this isn't a tourney or a "he'll fight how you want him to fight" situation.

Superman's character will always come in to play, as will Thor's and anyone else's...

Originally posted by -Pr-
this isn't a tourney or a "he'll fight how you want him to fight" situation.

Superman's character will always come in to play, as will Thor's and anyone else's... well, I don't see it as out of character for superman to use speed offensively...god knows aside from flash, I know of no character who uses superspeed as effectively or as often as superman.

Originally posted by Starscream M
well, I don't see it as out of character for superman to use speed offensively...god knows aside from flash, I know of no character who uses superspeed as effectively or as often as superman.

he only uses it when he absolutely has to, though, which is the thing. When you can take the beating Superman can and still stand there trying to talk someone down (which has worked in the past), you don't necessarily need to blitz them.

In order to see how important it is, you just have to look at a few threads where one of the character has it and the other one doesn't, and make your conclusion based on the losing side's desperate stance.

Not a vs thread but a question thread. Moving.

Originally posted by Starscream M
anything from this century?



His fight with Moongoose?

Originally posted by Starscream M
so does the fact that hulk does so well against much more mobile heralds in comics mean he would have the same success on KMC? He won't have the same success because we don't allow PIS which is the reason why people see Hulk as a nobody on these forums especially when his opponents can fly or are fast etc. Also there is always the BFR which hardly occurs in comic books.


KMC rules favor some characters and handicaps others.

Example for characters that benefit : Lanterns , Surfer , Thor , Flash
example of character being hurt on KMC: Hulk , Superman , Wolverine etc.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I agree with Kg. At this point, writers most definitely think about telling the story first and foremost.

They've always cared about that, most just think they want to be "accurate" to the character's histories and they don't. I've been saying that.

speed and reflexes are most important. there are martial art types that are especially geared for fighting stronger opponents

Bump

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Just how much does speed and reflexes effect a match up when compared to things such as power, strength, durability, intellect, versatility, etc? Unanswerable really, for instance spiderman/quicksilver vs. Juggernaut speed and reflexes will mean nothing.

Flash with the ebony blade Vs. Hulk it will mean everything.