Tim Pawlenty's health care solution: Repeal EMTALA

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Darth Jello
So there's a clip from Greta Van Sustren going around online of Tim Pawlenty saying that a good cost control method for health care is to change the law requiring hospital ERs to treat everyone.

That law would be EMTALA (Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act). Just so you guys know, EMTALA mainly does two things:

1. It prevents an ER from refusing to treat you for any reason.
2. It prevents a hospital from dumping your ass on the street when you're in no condition to be out.

In other words, you're uninsured and you come to the hospital with chest pains and numbness. The hospital will either tell you to go **** yourself, get the ambulance to drive you around town for an ER willing to take you, or they'll admit you, put you on morphine and general anasthesia and then dump you in some homeless shelter or ally somewhere.

This comes at a time where some of the tea baggers have talked about standing armed outside ERs guarding against non-citizens and the uninsured with loaded guns.

Thoughts?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Darth Jello
So there's a clip from Greta Van Sustren going around online of Tim Pawlenty saying that a good cost control method for health care is to change the law requiring hospital ERs to treat everyone.

That law would be EMTALA (Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act). Just so you guys know, EMTALA mainly does two things:

1. It prevents an ER from refusing to treat you for any reason.
2. It prevents a hospital from dumping your ass on the street when you're in no condition to be out.

In other words, you're uninsured and you come to the hospital with chest pains and numbness. The hospital will either tell you to go **** yourself, get the ambulance to drive you around town for an ER willing to take you, or they'll admit you, put you on morphine and general anasthesia and then dump you in some homeless shelter or ally somewhere.

This comes at a time where some of the tea baggers have talked about standing armed outside ERs guarding against non-citizens and the uninsured with loaded guns.

Thoughts?

I think the best thing to do is pass Obama health care so we can kill all the undesirable people with death panels before they get to the hospitals.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I think the best thing to do is pass Obama health care so we can kill all the undesirable people with death panels before they get to the hospitals.

Yeah, in Europe and Canada death panels and free healthcare kill over 900000000000000 people a day.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Yeah, in Europe and Canada death panels and free healthcare kill over 900000000000000 people a day.

You are being sarcastic.

Europe and Canada need to work on their healthcare because they are not killing the right people.

inimalist
Originally posted by Darth Jello
In other words, you're uninsured and you come to the hospital with chest pains and numbness. The hospital will either tell you to go **** yourself, get the ambulance to drive you around town for an ER willing to take you, or they'll admit you, put you on morphine and general anasthesia and then dump you in some homeless shelter or ally somewhere.

I thought this was already, if illegally, practiced, with more "high class" hospitals dumping the uninsured on low end, generally more crowded, hospitals?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Europe and Canada need to work on their healthcare because they are not killing the right people.

yes, we do, nothing is perfect and these systems aknowledge the need for constant reform.

so, now that we have done the necessary, reactionary critique of social medicine for no reason or relevance to the thread:



http://www.macleans.ca/science/health/article.jsp?content=20080625_19351_19351

HAIL, the perfect and never changing monolith of American healcare

dadudemon
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You are being sarcastic.


laughing

Ya think?

Dude, I was in class. You made me laugh and distract the professor while he was lecturing. How dare you. laughing

Darth Jello
Originally posted by inimalist
I thought this was already, if illegally, practiced, with more "high class" hospitals dumping the uninsured on low end, generally more crowded, hospitals?

A couple years back, Kaiser and Anthem got caught in California putting homeless and poor people on light sedatives and saline and then dumping them in shelters and street corners in nothing but a hospital gown in the middle of the night with no medical care at all.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Darth Jello
A couple years back, Kaiser and Anthem got caught in California putting homeless and poor people on light sedatives and saline and then dumping them in shelters and street corners in nothing but a hospital gown in the middle of the night with no medical care at all.

Read about that. I'm no so sure I'm against that.


However, it's sad that I would have to chose to let people go to save more productive citizens. I would prefer it if we could let healthcare professionals do what they want trained to do: save and improve lives.

Darth Jello
Originally posted by dadudemon
Read about that. I'm no so sure I'm against that.


However, it's sad that I would have to chose to let people go to save more productive citizens. I would prefer it if we could let healthcare professionals do what they want trained to do: save and improve lives. Autogenocide anyone? Being rich doesn't mean you're productive. Quite the opposite in fact if you live in the US considering how many people make their money by moving other peoples' money around while creating nothing of value.

Bicnarok
Health care would be a lot cheaper if the people weren´t poisoned by the countless crap on offer disguised as edible and drinkable goods.

Darth Jello
Originally posted by Bicnarok
Health care would be a lot cheaper if the people weren´t poisoned by the countless crap on offer disguised as edible and drinkable goods. Which would require an expansion of government testing, requiring raising prices or taxes and also society being able to supply jobs and afford retirement for more and more people living to retirement age (gasp! socialism! The blasphemy to capitalism, our national religion!). The obvious conservative/libertarian solution is private testing and inspection without oversight so people running easily bribable companies can make a quick buck while making a few people feel safe even as more and more people become sick and die.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Darth Jello
Autogenocide anyone? Being rich doesn't mean you're productive. Quite the opposite in fact if you live in the US considering how many people make their money by moving other peoples' money around while creating nothing of value.

That's not what I was referring to and neither were you.

Not that we disagree completely on what you said above, but what you just did is a strawman. big grin

We were talking about homeless people, not blue-collar working class people.




Also, I think an ER should tell people to GTFO for cuts that need stitches or other type of immediate non-life threatening issues. Go to your PCP or urgent care facility. But, not being able to tell if something is a heart attack or heart burn: sure, admit them.

Darth Jello
Right but you still have to find a PCP or urgent care that will take someone that's uninsured and if you get rid of the law, every health care facility in a given city could adopt a policy not to take anyone uninsured who can't pay upfront out of pocket, thus completely eliminating any health care for (at this point) at least a fifth of the population. They could also destroy Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, and the VA by deciding not to treat anyone with an insurance plan that pays below market value, thus making any kind of government health care unaffordable and pointless. Something insurance-run hospitals would definitely be willing to do. Then you've got expensive conditions that you lose money on anyway. Better not to even admit or diagnose segments of the population that statistically are at high risk of cancer and heart disease. No chance of accusations of profiling since you don't have to provide any kind of justification for refusing to admit or kicking someone out but that automatically kicks all non-upper class Blacks, Hispanics, Roma, Jews, gays, uncircumcised males, the obese, and women out of the ER.

In this admittedly extreme yet plausible scenario, that leaves the vast majority of Americans with absolutely NO access to any kind of medical care AT ALL.

It's ok though. Big job recovery and advancement possibilities for survivors.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Darth Jello
Right but you still have to find a PCP or urgent care that will take someone that's uninsured

All you have to do is pay a significant portion. Six years ago, I wasn't insured and I had to go do several things. I always paid in full, at the point of service, though. You just have to have the money.

But, I don't see a problem with having to pay for services. The insurance is there to lessen the blow.

Darth Jello
Originally posted by dadudemon
All you have to do is pay a significant portion. Six years ago, I wasn't insured and I had to go do several things. I always paid in full, at the point of service, though. You just have to have the money.

But, I don't see a problem with having to pay for services. The insurance is there to lessen the blow. The problem is that this would give them the right to refuse people regardless of ability to pay and in medical emergencies or to stop critical care as soon as your money ran out and toss you into the street.

Robtard
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Yeah, in Europe and Canada death panels and free healthcare kill over 900000000000000 people a day.

Listen, if socialized medicine worked, America would be using it. Simple, really.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Darth Jello
The problem is that this would give them the right to refuse people regardless of ability to pay and in medical emergencies or to stop critical care as soon as your money ran out and toss you into the street.


So?

If it's a private orgnization, why do they have to give away their money if they don't want to? smile

Darth Jello
Originally posted by dadudemon
So?

If it's a private orgnization, why do they have to give away their money if they don't want to? smile because it violates the hippocratic oath and legally is criminal negligence and manslaughter (at the least)?

Darth Jello
Originally posted by Robtard
Listen, if socialized medicine worked, America would be using it. Simple, really. By that logic, every American would have a bidet by now.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Darth Jello
because it violates the hippocratic oath and legally is criminal negligence and manslaughter (at the least)?

Without EMTALA, it is not criminal negligence. It does not violate the hypcratic oath, either. There are legit people that may not get services that may die or suffer permanent damager because others, who cannot afford those services, are ahead of them. Does it not violate the hypcratic oath to be irresponsable and just accept all?

Indeed, it is a slippery slope argument to say it violates the hypocratic oath.

In a system of private medical organizations, and no public option, it's a two way street. (Which was exactly my point.)


It definitely isn't manslaughter beacuse they didn't do anything directly or indirectly that killed them. It was inaction and those laws vary from state to state. (good samaritan laws) Nice try?

Robtard
Originally posted by Darth Jello
By that logic, every American would have a bidet by now.

American's aren't gay like the French.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Robtard
American's aren't gay like the French.


I use charmin wet wipes, instead. http://pics.drugstore.com/prodimg/217160/200.JPG


That's obviously more manly than a bidet....maybe?

Robtard
Originally posted by dadudemon
I use charmin wet wipes, instead. http://pics.drugstore.com/prodimg/217160/200.JPG


That's obviously more manly than a bidet....maybe?

Manly and practical, but you shave your butt-hole, you homo.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Robtard
Manly and practical, but you shave your butt-hole, you homo.

laughing

Pwned. 313

Darth Jello
A bidet or Japanese washlet is the most efficient way to keep your anus clean outside of showering and I know for a fact that no Americans like having an itchy, hemorrhoidey ass hole.

Darth Jello
Originally posted by dadudemon
Without EMTALA, it is not criminal negligence. It does not violate the hypcratic oath, either. There are legit people that may not get services that may die or suffer permanent damager because others, who cannot afford those services, are ahead of them. Does it not violate the hypcratic oath to be irresponsable and just accept all?

Indeed, it is a slippery slope argument to say it violates the hypocratic oath.

In a system of private medical organizations, and no public option, it's a two way street. (Which was exactly my point.)


It definitely isn't manslaughter beacuse they didn't do anything directly or indirectly that killed them. It was inaction and those laws vary from state to state. (good samaritan laws) Nice try? kicking someone out of the hospital while they're on the critical list or 20 minutes after major surgery isn't manslaughter?

dadudemon
Originally posted by Darth Jello
kicking someone out of the hospital while they're on the critical list or 20 minutes after major surgery isn't manslaughter?
If services rendered but not completed caused the death or permanent injury of a person, it is manslaughter or negligence. If no services were rendered and the person is turned away before admittance, no crime was committed IF EMTALA didn't exist.

The aind.


It's not that I disagree with you, it's just that...we don't have a public option. erm

Robtard
Originally posted by Darth Jello
A bidet or Japanese washlet is the most efficient way to keep your anus clean outside of showering and I know for a fact that no Americans like having an itchy, hemorrhoidey ass hole.

Evangelicals do. /fact

Darth Jello
Originally posted by dadudemon
If services rendered but not completed caused the death or permanent injury of a person, it is manslaughter or negligence. If no services were rendered and the person is turned away before admittance, no crime was committed IF EMTALA didn't exist.

The aind.


It's not that I disagree with you, it's just that...we don't have a public option. erm We don't need a public option. We need to either criminalize for-profit health care or institute socialized medicine.

Robtard
Originally posted by Darth Jello
We don't need a public option. We need to either criminalize for-profit health care or institute socialized medicine.

Well that's just socialist rolled up with a side of communism; that kind of liberal-speak is anti-American and will likely end up killing billions.

Darth Jello
Originally posted by Robtard
Well that's just socialist rolled up with a side of communism; that kind of liberal-speak is anti-American and will likely end up killing billions. Eleventy billion to be exact.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Darth Jello
We don't need a public option. We need to either criminalize for-profit health care or institute socialized medicine.

Socialized medicine already exists in America. no expression In very large numbers, to boot. Both government and private. smile




And, I can assure you that criminalizing "for-profit" healthcare isn't a good option either because I used to work in "non-profit" health-insurance. It just meant the insured paid more out of pocket and people were rejected less often. erm


Originally posted by Darth Jello
Eleventy billion to be exact.

fear

Darth Jello
Sweden has one of the highest rated health systems in the world and it's isn't government run, it's just non-profit. In fact, for-profit primary health insurance is illegal pretty much every other place on Earth. And yeah, medicine is lemon socialized in America considering that the insurance industry makes 60% of their revenue off of government handouts.

Robtard
Originally posted by Darth Jello
Sweden has one of the highest rated health systems in the world and it's isn't government run, it's just non-profit. In fact, for-profit primary health insurance is illegal pretty much every other place on Earth. And yeah, medicine is lemon socialized in America considering that the insurance industry makes 60% of their revenue off of government handouts.

Sweden also ****ed up the Volvo, so there.

Ordo
Originally posted by Bicnarok
Health care would be a lot cheaper if the people weren´t poisoned by the countless crap on offer disguised as edible and drinkable goods.

FTW.

Robtard
Originally posted by Ordo
FTW.

No, FTF. Now you want to dictate what people can and can not eat? You Fasci-social-commute!

Ordo
Originally posted by Robtard
No, FTF. Now you want to dictate what people can and can not eat? You Fasci-social-commute!

Hell yes.

This is America damnit! I drive a truck.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Darth Jello
Sweden has one of the highest rated health systems in the world and it's isn't government run, it's just non-profit. In fact, for-profit primary health insurance is illegal pretty much every other place on Earth. And yeah, medicine is lemon socialized in America considering that the insurance industry makes 60% of their revenue off of government handouts.


Hey, I was just playin' devil's advocate. You provided an excuse, I provided the counter.


How many other examples do you have? And then, how many counter-examples to that, do you have?


Then, you realize that they are all expreseed, relative to eachother?


Then....what? Nirvana?



Originally posted by Ordo
Hell yes.

This is America damnit! I drive a truck.

Yeah, 'cause we're Uh Mair iCuh!

Robtard
Originally posted by dadudemon

Yeah, 'cause we're Uh Mair iCuh!

The trucking industry is a vital component of the US economy, what are you doing to help America stay "the best country in the world", you butt-hole shaver?

Ordo
I should try that on my patients.

"Well I'm not gonna help you lose weight. I'm paid by the goverment. I believe in personal responsibilty, so its your fault you're a fatass. Pick yourself up by your own bootstraps, move out of your shitty impoverished neighborhood, get a real job, and join a gym. Oh and learn how to count calories yourself! Go to medical school and then you can write a perscription for yourself."

100% SUCCESS RATE WITH THE AMERICAN WAY!

Robtard
Originally posted by Ordo
I should try that on my patients.

"Well I'm not gonna help you lose weight. I'm paid by the goverment. I believe in personal responsibilty, so its your fault you're a fatass. Pick yourself up by your own bootstraps, move out of your shitty impoverished neighborhood, get a real job, and join a gym. Oh and learn how to count calories yourself! Go to medical school and then you can write a perscription for yourself."

100% SUCCESS RATE WITH THE AMERICAN WAY!

Sounds good!

If they have the audacity to complain, just remind them that "freedom isn't free." /fact

Ordo
RICH LANDOWNING WHITE MALES DIED SO YOU COULD EAT YOURSELF TO DEATH.

SO EAT YOURSELF TO DEAT GODDAMIT. CELEBRATE YOUR FREEDOM.

Ms.Marvel
only on kmc crylaugh

inimalist
Originally posted by Ordo
Go to medical school and then you can write a perscription for yourself.

the dream...

Bardock42
Emtala....lol, you Americans.

Darth Jello
Originally posted by Bardock42
Emtala....lol, you Americans. You just don't understand the ideology/religion of the ruling classes and parties. See, according to them, the only purpose of government is redistributing wealth to them, securing resources for them by force, and using all resources to protect their assets. Everyone else should just pray to America's national god, the Invisible Hand of the Market.

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