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ok so Arwen gives her pendant to Aragorn does that mean that the time she doesn't have it shes mortal and ages, or does hold a rather symbollic theme that she rather chooses to become mortal? please explain - thanks!!!

hmmm.good question.wish i knew the answer but ill have a guess.
i think the necklace of Arwen's does hold her "immortality" in it,since aragorn says in the fellowship "you can't give this to me".so if she gives it to aragorn,she is giving up her immortality and becoming mortal.
however,are elves really immortal???i thought they just aged very slowly....

i hope i helped a little!

elven age is too big for them to reach it, and die of old age. They die one way or another.
That pendant is a symbolic gesture. immortality can't be transposed in objects. It's just arwen's wish to become mortal.

k thanx so much

i agree it was just done for the film

melodramatic....but it turned out good

ok Arwen's necklace the evenstar represents her, it doesn't hold her immortality
and elves are immortal, there only a few ways they can die, they can die of a broken heart because its too much grieving , they can die getting killed in battle,and in the appendix it says that arwen could only die if all she had gained in her life was lost
so when she gives aragorn her necklace she is giving him her heart
so at the end when he dies and all the elves sail to the grey havens all that she had gained was lost so she went to the place they met and died

I hoped that answered your question

umm..no they're not. The can actually die of old age...but the period of time is stupidly large. Enough to get bored anyway.

excuse me if you say something like that you have to have some proof
ELVES ARE IMMORTAL!!!

and you probobly are not a true lord of the rings fan to say something like that that is totally untrue

christ undomiel....get your facts right before talking nonsense. i'm not about to search for the exact passage in 'the silamrillion' but belive me.
they CAN die of old age. jeese!

excuse me I did not say it was from the silmarillion
you obviously dont have your facts straight to say they die of old age because if you were a true LOTR fan you would know that they are immortal

They are immortal in a sense. While they can die of old age, and that takes about 1,000,000 years, they cannot catch any illness or suffer any plagues men, dwarves, or hobbits may die of. Undomiel already posted the ways an Elf can die.

this goes the other way too undomiel. I could say that you're not a real fan of lotr by not knowing they can actually die of old age.
BUt i won't...because i know it's a details easily skipped even if you DID read 'the silmarillion'. (and btw...i know you didn't say it was from silmarillion but the elven life period extends in lotr also...it's pretty much a fact)
So...do double check nexttime..before arguing nonsensly

you can read pretty much any of the LOTR books to know that they are immortal
and what Id like to know is where you got your info from

Undomiel, you are WRONG, I am sorry to say. They die of old age, at the end of approximately 1 million years. It'll tell you in books about Tolkien's notes, it'll tell you in the Silmarillion, and it'll tell you in the Lord of the Rings.

At the Encyclopedia of Arda (great site with practically everything there is to know piled into it), it says this.



But it also says this.



That last quote was taken from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter No 245, dated 1963.

The dictionary says this about the word 'immortal.'

Used as an adjective:

1. Not subject to death.
2. Never to be forgotten; everlasting
3. Of or relating to immortality.

Used as a noun:

1. One not subject to death.
2. One whose fame is enduring.

The dictionary says this about the word 'immortality.'

Used as a noun:

1. The quality or condition of being immortal.
2. Endless life or existence.
3. Enduring fame.

Now, let's see if the Elves fit to any of these meanings.

Immortal meaning #1: The Elves were subject to death, either by extremely old age, death in battle, or extreme depression. See meaning #5 for Immortal as well.

Immortal meaning #2: The Elves were immortal in this sense. Gil-Galad's legend lived on even after Sauron had killed him.

Immortal meaning #3: See the comparing of Elves to the definitions of Immortality.

Immortal meaning #4: Again, Elves were subject to death.

Immortal meaning #5: Immortal in the sense of legends and tales and fame, not in life.

Immortality meaning #1: Again, they were not immortal. See the meanings above.

Immortality meaning #2: The Elves did not have endless life or existence. If they did, there would be more Elves.

Immortality meaning #3: Like the meanings relating to fame above.

In Greek mythology, the gods were immortals. The gods ate sacred nectar and ambrosia. In one story, the story of Prometheus the Fire-Bringer, he brought the gift of fire to Men of Greece against Zeus's will. Zeus, who had authority over all of creation, punished Prometheus by chaining him and having an eagle rip out his innards every day and every night. Being immortal, Prometheus felt the pain but did not die, and was eventually saved by Hercules some time later.

If you put the Elves in that position, they would die if they were gutted.

I repeat, they were immortal in the sense that they caught no diseases of Mankind and lived for a very long time. The Men called them immortal because they were unlike Men. Average Men lived at the longest 100 years, which was one-ten thousandth, or 1/10000, (that's a fraction btw) of Elven age.

Need I say more?

ergh...no...i think you got him man. good job *thumbs up*

Thank you Dexx. I think I was getting a little tired of the bickering when I posted all that.

If you want I can make a movie about the world Immortality and call the movie Immortality.

Gee, Rex, you could at least try and support your arguments...

it is true that they age, but not like us. isnt it kind of like after eons they tire of the world and "die" then? so i guess for the most part they are immortal, but after living here so long they kind of grow wary of the world. i think it is almost kind of how they can die from grief, i guess they can also die from boredom. and rex very nice job on supporting your argument, but your example of gilgalad kind of doesnt work for me just because elendil would then be considered immortal as well, but very nice job.

i tried to find the passage in the silmarillion today, but gave up after 5 minutes. I get lost throught all of those pages.

Gil-Galad was an Elf that was slain, Turin. Immortality means that you cannot die under any circumstance. You get the picture.

Yep, that would be pretty tiring, wouldn't it Dexx?

oh really because to me it looks like it says that THEY ARE IMMORTAL!!
maybe you need to look a little closer next time

*smacks forehead* *bangs head on wall*

THEY ARE NOT IMMORTAL!!! THEY CAN DIE!!!

When Arwen says she will choose mortal life, it means that she will not live a million years like the rest of her kind.

Can't you read the definitions! Immortality means that an immortal person CANNOT DIE. Elves CAN DIE. Otherwise they would be UNSTOPPABLE, which they ARE NOT.

Can someone help me pound this into her head?

thats one thing I dont understand, if the books says they are immortal then that means they are immortal
but I was just saying they are immortal
I know they can die
I already posted the ways they can die, the thing is Galadriel was born in like the second age so that would mean she would at least have to be a million years old

Actually, she was born in the Years of the Trees, before the First Age. That would make her about 10,000 years old. That falls 990,000 years short of the dying age of Elves.

Years of the Trees -- about 14,325 years
First Age -- about 583 years
Second Age -- 3441 years
Third Age -- 3021 years
Fourth Age -- last recorded date 172 years

All adds up to 21,542 years. Elves couldn't have reached the age of 1 million anyway.

Where does the book say that they are immortal? Give me the passages and prove it.

oh, you are something, undomiel.
I've just remembered i have the silmarillion on my pc. I'll try and find that pasage with some key words.....i hope you won't continue with this foolishness then.

AHA!..found it

so it's bla bla bla...followed by (and this is a quote from the book) :..."neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. "



ten thousand centuries..that's like 1 000 000. A million years...yeah...enough to grown weary on

thats when they go to the grey havens

Not when they are dead and in the Halls of Mandos, Undomiel... they are way beyond the Grey Havens by then.

The guys are right; Tolkien did put a theoretical age limit of 10000 centuries on Elves.

rex, hey i was just saying that one of your examples of the use of the word immortality is how gilgalad's legend will be remembered forever making his memory immortal, well by that example a lot of the human characters would be immortal as well. i think it was your immortal meaning #2. thats all i was saying.

Oh, okay Turin, I get what your saying. We're all pretty much immortal in that sense. I was emphasising the "cannot die" part, so I was confused when you first said that.

its all good rex, so i guess they dont really grow old do they. they kind of just get bored and leave. sound right?

hm...

Hm?

umdomial.. not meaning to burst you're bubble, but elves can die of old age.. as the dewd said up there.. its takes like eons for them to die due to age.. not all elves choose to go to the grey havens.. as you've probably read in other threads abouts elves of eg legolas's breed who feel there is no need to travel to the west... those elves either die of grief or very very very very very OLD age.. they're immortal in a sense that no mortal has ever lived to see an elf die

sorry undomiel but these guys are right
TO us elves would seem immortal but they can be killed which make them mortal..........if u want a better word they live for a ridiculously long time.......but as nature goes( i assume its the same in middle earth) that once something is born IT WILL DIE.

and as for arwen .........she has the choise to be mortal ( ie live a shorter life than regular elves) to us.
Remember Elrond and his brother ( i forget his name) are half elven and have the choise to live as a long living elf or a long living human.

Can we please cancel this thread!!
ok like I said on the other thread I wrote these things along time ago and i have changed since then. So lets just forget about the old threads and write on the new
ok

oh ya and you spelled "dewd" wrong

ok lets all ust be friends alrighty

i understand all of that but how does she plan to give up her mortality? is there like a spell for that.....i dont remember anything in any books ive read......

No its quite strange;
If an elf marries a man he (or she) becomes mortal; not from one second to another, but slowly, no spell or something because theyre to different from each other that doesnt work... shell still look like an elf and all but when aragorn dies shell be so sad and all that she also does..

but she still wont age will she? awww pooh thats not fair lol

dont think shell age as fast as a human but perhaps she looks older because of being unhappy about not being an immortal anymore...

um i think you're wrong. elond is known as elrond halfelven because his brother elros and himself got the choise to become mortal or elven, and elros became mortal (tho he and his kin lived an unnaturally long mortal life) and elrond became an elf. but since they got the choice, so to all their desendants. isnt thta rihgt??

Yes, thats right... but obviously Arwen has chosen to be an elf before (how could she have lived so lond otherwise?), and when she meets Aragorn she decides to be mortal - but that doesnt change from one second to another, but takes a long time.

ok its a necklace not a bracelet

Oops I was a bit absent-minded... sorry

no hunny i didn't spell dewd wrong.. it's look better spelt this way

wait i always thought elves were immortal and could only die of a broken heart or get injured in a battle, even orlando said that, cuz he plays legolas who is a elf and is immortal..these were his exact words (unless he didnt read all the stuff u mentioned) "they can only die of a broken heart or if they get injured in a battle" maybe not in those right words ill have to rewatch that..BUT he said those were the ways that elves could die, i didnt hear him mention old age

BUT...arwen did say she chooses to live a mortal life so she can be with aragorn, so she is gonna age, either that...or..if aragorn dies...she will die of a broken heart...or..if she battles..and gets injured..she will die...but im pretty sure if she were to die in the ROTK, it will be either of old age or a broken heart

either way..she gave aragorn her immortality, and choosed to be mortal

im blabbing...HEHEHE i get so caught up in LOTR!! hahaha

Yah but OB says a lot...
He's right, these are the usual ways for elves to die;
but if they wed a mortal man, they cant really live together cuz the differences are too big.
and if their love dies, they soon die, too, of broken heart.

Arwen gives her immortality to Frodo

arwen gives frodo her immortality? are you being serious? or was a joke? because i thought she gave her immortality to aragorn??

has anyone seen the awesome ring they have on ebay right now, its a elvish love ring from lord of the rings, its soooo beautiful, i love it

I mean, she gives her immortality away BECAUSE of Aragorn, of course;

But she gives Frodo her own "permission" to travel to the Undying Lands.

So, bit yes, bit no


Nah - where??? Love ring, whats that??
Id love to have that Evenstar... so beautiful... but so expensive

ok do not call me hunny

Elrond is half elven so that means he has the choice to be either mortal or immortal
so that means Arwen has the choice to be either mortal or immortal
so she chooses to be mortal