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The Source's opposite vs the Presence opposite Nekron.

Is that a serious question? I mean if you take John's statement at face value Presence>>>>>>>>>>Source and it follows their opposite numbers would have the same dynamic.

I don't believe Nekron is the Presence's opposite though, if he was he'd have done more.

The fight? I'm not so sure, so I'm serious.

Never heard of Ecruos before. But if it's equal to the Source, then it would win. Nekron is not the opposite of the Presence. Despite what John might say, canonically Nekron hasn't done anything to put it on the level of the Presence or the Source.

Nekron is just an avatar of the darkness of the universe. The light is an abomination (cancer imo) to the universe. The universe/multiverse was created at some point by the Presence while the Source seems merely an aspect that embodies the majority of energy that make up the DC universe.

Or, alternatively, the Presence is just one aspect, the Judeo-Christian aspect, of the Source.

Which makes more sense, given all thepersonalized forms divinity takes.

Originally posted by Desaad
Or, alternatively, the Presence is just one aspect, the Judeo-Christian aspect, of the Source.

Which makes more sense, given all thepersonalized forms divinity takes.

Actually, I prefer this better. But DC seems to favor having the Judeo-Christian god as their top dog. That's what killed Kirby's Source and the New Gods. The have no place in the DC because of stuff like this pushing them aside.

They've always left it ambiguous, purposefully so. I've never seen even a single story that puts one over the other, or that does anything but hint that there is some relationship between the two.

Originally posted by Desaad
They've always left it ambiguous, purposefully so. I've never seen even a single story that puts one over the other, or that does anything but hint that there is some relationship between the two.

Both the Lucifer and Sandman series seems to hint at the Presence being more power. Lucifer outright ignores the Source while standing on it's shoulder. While in Sandman, Morpheus remarks that Lucifer was only second to the Presence.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Both the Lucifer and Sandman series seems to hint at the Presence being more power. Lucifer outright ignores the Source while standing on it's shoulder.

He's standing on the shoulder of a Promethean, which is nothing. Countless characters have rested on the wall in their days -- Orion has even ripped someone out of it, as has Superman. Heck, Orion even escaped it himself!

That Lucifer thing was a reference to Swamp Thing, a Veitch fill in, in which Metron and Swamp Thing thought they had pierced the Source but had really just hit an extremely cosmic phenomenon that allows one to view large swathes of creation all at once.

Nice little piece of continuity, and nothing else.




Which still has nothing to do with any sort of hierarchical relationship between the Source and the Presence.

The only thing that really indicates relationships are Mr. Miracle commenting that heaven felt like being in the presence of the source, and the Spectre being able to enter the Source. But, again, entering the source in and of itself isn't a big deal -- Darkseid, Orion, and Stargirl's soul have all forced their way in, and Martian Manhunter was allowed in on one occasion.

what issue/issues did the Ecruos appear

love to post some scans

Originally posted by Desaad
He's standing on the shoulder of a Promethean, which is nothing. I am very hard-pressed to consider that creature a simple Promethean. Why? Because the shoulder you mentioned (the one that Lucifer was standing on) was really the Aleph -- you know, the one place where you can see everything in creation at once:
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/5514/luciferl.jpg

Lucifer ignored the Source itself just so he could reach the Aleph in hopes of finding Michael. Regardless, it was not the mediocre feat you seem to be making it our to be.

Originally posted by guy222
what issue/issues did the Ecruos appear

love to post some scans I posted some scans a while back:
Originally posted by Galan007
Orion vs. Ecruos:
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/ecruos1.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/ecruos2.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/ecruos3.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/ecruos4.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/ecruos5.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/ecruos6.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/ecruos7.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/ecruos8.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/ecruos9.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/ecruos10.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/ecruos11.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/ecruos12.jpg

thank u

Originally posted by Galan007
I am very hard-pressed to consider that creature a simple Promethean. Why? Because the shoulder you mentioned (the one that Lucifer was standing on) was really the Aleph -- you know, the one place where you can see everything in creation at once:
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/5514/luciferl.jpg

Yeah, I'm well aware of that scene. It is very obvious that that was supposed to be a 'simple' promethean. It's a giant stone looking creature that appears in conjunction with the source being mentioned. It doesn't get any more straightforward.





It's absolutely a mediocre feat, yes. Ignoring the Source doesn't mean he traveled THROUGH the Source to reach it, it means he didn't particularly care about trying to tap into it, or enter it, as the Prometheans did.

Again, this is a throwback to an issue of Swamp Thing, hence the little bubble with the image of Swamp Thing in there. In that issue, Metron and Swamp Thing try to gain entry into the Source, think they do. Metron goes to Darkseid with what he's seen and done, and Darkseid laughs at him, calling an Aleph a "parlor trick"

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/7111/19page18.th.jpg


Again, it has nothing to do with actually entering or traversing the Source.

^ The fact that the Aleph literally WAS that creature's shoulder should be more than enough to say it wasn't some random Promethean. That is my only point.

It's irrelevant. Promethean or Transmuter or whatever.

Nothing about finding an Aleph is genuinely impressive, as Darkseid himself says above, and this was just a nod to a classic vertigo book.

I don't think you're understanding my point, but it's no biggie. Doubt anything would change your opinion anyway.

GEB is the Presence's opposite

Originally posted by Desaad
Yeah, I'm well aware of that scene. It is very obvious that that was supposed to be a 'simple' promethean. It's a giant stone looking creature that appears in conjunction with the source being mentioned. It doesn't get any more straightforward.


It's absolutely a mediocre feat, yes. Ignoring the Source doesn't mean he traveled THROUGH the Source to reach it, it means he didn't particularly care about trying to tap into it, or enter it, as the Prometheans did.

Again, this is a throwback to an issue of Swamp Thing, hence the little bubble with the image of Swamp Thing in there. In that issue, Metron and Swamp Thing try to gain entry into the Source, think they do. Metron goes to Darkseid with what he's seen and done, and Darkseid laughs at him, calling an Aleph a "parlor trick"

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/7111/19page18.th.jpg

Again, it has nothing to do with actually entering or traversing the Source.

Hmm well after reading more of Swamp Thing Reunion it would seem you are right. Lucifer never went through and found The Source at all, we can clearly see where The Source resides is behind Lucifer, Metron and the others aka "The Final Barrier". The being Lucifer is standing on seems to be somewhat related to whatever the Transmuter is doing (but knowbody really knows.)
http://yfrog.com/3dimage5sgj
http://yfrog.com/b6image6pj

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't think you're understanding my point, but it's no biggie. Doubt anything would change your opinion anyway.

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to spell out what your point is, then?

I think it's pretty obvious that the creature is a Promethean Giant, especially given the context of talking about the "Source" and the Swamp Thing issue. I also don't think it matters in regards to how impressive the feat is, because regardless Lucifer isn't doing anything there.

Originally posted by kevdude
Hmm well after reading more of Swamp Thing Reunion it would seem you are right. Lucifer never went through and found The Source at all, we can clearly see where The Source resides is behind Lucifer, Metron and the others aka "The Final Barrier". The being Lucifer is standing on seems to be somewhat related to whatever the Transmuter is doing (but knowbody really knows.)
http://yfrog.com/3dimage5sgj
http://yfrog.com/b6image6pj

Had people been labouring under the idea that this was Lucifer actually enterting the Source and ignoring it?

Originally posted by Desaad
Had people been labouring under the idea that this was Lucifer actually enterting the Source and ignoring it?

Yes, thats been the idea for many years.. So it seems The Source keeps its mystery still to this day.