FF8 Party v.s. Ganondorf

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ScreamPaste
This takes place in Hyrule field because Ganon doesn't wanna level his castle again.

Can the FF8 party hope to survive, really?

-Ganon has only his usual piece of the triforce.
-BFR's are not valid.
-If Atleast one member of the FF party survives six hours, Link Comes to Town to save their asses.

Ganon is blood-lusted.

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This takes place in Hyrule field because Ganon doesn't wanna level his castle again.

Can the FF8 party hope to survive, really?

-Ganon has only his usual piece of the triforce.
-BFR's are not valid.
-If Atleast one member of the FF party survives six hours, Link Comes to Town to save their asses.

Ganon is blood-lusted.

You already know what my answer will be and this won't even take 30 minutes.

ScreamPaste
Imho Ganon wins in less than that. TK+Punch, repeat as needed. stick out tongue

LLLLLink
Ganondorf drops the Twilight, transforms them, and poops on their party.

/thread

Why the spite thread, Scream?

Nephthys
Selphie casts The End.

http://ui11.gamefaqs.com/778/gfs_50281_2_12.jpg

ScreamPaste
@5L

There were people of the opinion that the FF8 party were powerful enough to fight Ganondorf, so I made the thread to allow them to voice those opinions and be on topic.

@Neph

Lolwut?

LLLLLink
You knew better big grin

Nephthys
shrug

I don't know, it'll probably work.

LLLLLink
Assuming it could work, Ganondorf just slips into another dimension until its over and does his work from there.

SpadeKing
Even if they couldn't hurt him Ganondorf nor the mailman of Hyrule would keep up with Zell.

ScreamPaste
Actually, it was recently proven Ganon's reaction time is less than 0.1 of a second. stick out tongue WUT NAO?

So, yeah.. Imho, he TK's the party, and then kicks their heads off. 131

LLLLLink
You mean the super-giant Zell that runs around the earth, destroying the planet with each step?

Also, Ganondorf flies into the sky and laughs as they try to reach him.

SpadeKing
So he is gonna stay up there for 6 hours untill Link comes?

LLLLLink
Originally posted by LLLLLink
Ganondorf drops the Twilight, transforms them, and poops on their party.


No, Spade. ^ This.

Nephthys
Squall can walk on air.

LLLLLink
Link can walk on air too, it didn't help him.

ScreamPaste
Why does Ganondorf even have to avoid the party? He can outfight them. no expression

4.5 GJ strength + Reaction time > 0.1 seconds + being more durable than a castle = he can beat them to death with his fists.

LLLLLink
Yeah, but we are dismantling all options.

Nephthys
Explain please, or post a link. And Zell's still faster, and he hits hard enough to shatter rock, which is what I'm assuming the castle was made of.

ScreamPaste
Ganon can reliably defend against Link's sword attacks, which are clocked at under 0.1 seconds.

Also, Zell can shatter rock, but Midna hit Ganon so hard the castle around him exploded, and Ganondorf was totally unharmed.

kmnick
I have killed Ganondorf with Jigglypuff.

LLLLLink
Originally posted by kmnick
I have killed Ganondorf with Jigglypuff.

Sakurai invades the thread again. Sorry Shin, your thread now has a disease, and must be put down.

Pyron_Knight
I hope the Ultimecia fad dies down soon. She doesn't deserve this much attention.

Nephthys
Probably gameplay mechanic. Also, where are you getting that number from? Finally, running around the planet in 5 seconds> 0.1 secs strikes.



No she didn't, she seemed like she would strike him, the screen faded to white, we move to where Link and Zelda are, theres a medium sized explosion, like the kind all high level FF8 magic would do and then we see Ganon standing on a hill while the castle callapses in on itself. Its not a feat for anyone becuase we don't know what happened at all.

ScreamPaste
Actually this comes from a cutscene.

Actually, the castle exploded, you can see chunks of debris flying and everything, immediately after we see Midna bring her spear down on Ganon.

Guess what, we don't see Link impale Ganondorf either, but we know it happens.

Nephthys
Actually, theres a significant delay of, like, 20 seconds in real time, but I don't know how fast that black thingy goes so it could be 20 hours for all we know.

Ganon's also a giant firery head for some reason and then, in your version, a man on a horse on a hill 2 seconds later, so unless your claiming that he changed into a man, jumped on his horse, picked up Midna's crown thing, got to the hill and posed dramatically all in under 3 seconds, all off screen which of course you'd be unable to prove becuase we seriously have no idea what happens, I'm sticking with the non feat theory.

ScreamPaste
Given we know that he can teleport, and there's time between the explosion and when we see him onthe hill, it's not exactly hard to put 2+2 together, is it?

Trying to deny a character a feat? That's nothing but bias.

Nephthys
No, becuase I youtubed it becuase its actually an awesome feat that would be really annoying to argue against if it were true so I watched it so I could find something to nitpick about it and lo and behold there was enough ambiquity to make Watchman have a nerdgasm. Not only does it happen off screen and have a massive delays between when it happens to when the 'effects', if it was the effects of that, are shown, but it doesn't actually make sense.

Now if thats bias, then I just don't know what is confused

Also, he's have had to beat Midna in those 3 seconds too.

edit: heres the sceen, so people know I'm not just talking out of my ass: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDSPEfyrnwc

And I apoligise (DAMN YOU NO SPELL CHECK!) for my rantish mood.

ScreamPaste
VDSPEfyrnwc
1:56, Link and Zelda are teleported outside.
2:26, Midna attacks
2:35, cuts back in time to the teleported Link and Zelda arriving in the field.
2:53, Hyrule Castle explodes.

Ganon had atleast 18 seconds to defeat Midna, which he's been able to do in an instant before, and teleport outside.

Nephthys
No, becuase the explosion only happened 3 seconds before Ganon appeared, which means that either Midna's strike didn't cause the explosion, or my above scenario.

ScreamPaste
Please explain your logic.

When Ganon appears has no bearing on anything. It cuts back in time a little ways to when Link and Zelda teleported. Midna has 18 seconds atleast to blow up the castle, more if you go by the length of the scene inside. After this, Ganon can defeat her in an instant, and teleport outside, easy.

Nephthys
You claimed that Ganon tanked a strike that destroyed Hyrule castle, the explosion that happens at 2.53, completely unharmed, as he appears at 2.58. You are claiming that this is the strike that Midna unleashed at 2.26. If it was as you claim, Midna would have had to have struck at 2.53, which is when Hyrule castle blows up, then Ganon would have had to have defeated Midna, turned back into a man, picked up Midnas hat, gotten on his horse, teleported outside and struck a dramatic pose in around 4 seconds.

Though really, it doesn't matter if it could or couldn't have happened becuase it happens off screen, so we have no idea if it does happen. You are merely supposing it happened becuase it makes Ganon look badass. For all we know a drunken midget could have staggered in and ejaculated the explosion out of his ears. We don't even know if Midna hit. We. Don't. Know. Thats why off screen feats are so pathetic, becuase we don't know how it happened or even if it really did happen. If Toad defeated Satan off screen in a fistfight it might have been becuase hes a badass, or it might have been becuase Satan had a fatal stroke 1 second in. We just don't know.

ScreamPaste
Firstly, as I said, the scene jumps back in time to the teleport, and Midna destroys the castle by attacking Ganon, who is unharmed. This is the entire point of the scene: Ganon > Midna. We know exactly what was happening, we even see her spear come down. To believe anythign other than what the scene is explicitly showing is what happened is foolish.

Also, Ganon can move across a room and disintegrate someone with a punch before anyone even realises he's moving in another cutscene, for him to beat her, which he's done in less than a second before, snag her hat, and teleport isn't a big deal in four seconds at all.

The entire second half of your post is basicly:
Even though we know Midna attacks Ganon, and we know the castle explodes, and we know Ganon was inside, we should ignore the feat because it whites out.

It also doesn't show Link impaling Ganon, but we know he does that, I suppose we should assume a midget ejaculated swords out of his ears, too?

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
VDSPEfyrnwc
1:56, Link and Zelda are teleported outside.
2:26, Midna attacks
2:35, cuts back in time to the teleported Link and Zelda arriving in the field.
2:53, Hyrule Castle explodes.

Ganon had atleast 18 seconds to defeat Midna, which he's been able to do in an instant before, and teleport outside.

It looked like Midna and Ganondorf clashed together, made the explosion, and Midna went down because Ganon's attack was stronger. It only makes more sense that way.

ScreamPaste
We never even see Ganondorf attack. erm

Nephthys
Can't prove it, didn't see it happen etc etc



thumb up



This is the second time you've said this so I'm actually going to ask how we know he does it? If its that we just see him attack with a asword, cut to white then sometime later see Ganon with a sword in him, then you are incorrect becuase there are a number of ways we can get to scene C from scene A without passing B. A sword ejaculating midget is but one of the millions of possibilities taht exist.

ScreamPaste
It's the ENTIRE point of the cutscene. no expression

Also, you thumbs up'd a sarcastic remark that was intentionally designed to sound foolish.



We see Link jump in the air with his sword, and then, guess what, we don't see him make contact, just like the Midna scene, and then immediately after, Ganon is pinned underneath Link, with a sword through him.

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
We never even see Ganondorf attack. erm

He doesn't have arms in that form so he must've charged and used spiritual form to match Midna's attack.

ScreamPaste
Now you're making assumptions to try and veer away from the obvious conclusion. erm

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Now you're making assumptions to try and veer away from the obvious conclusion. erm

Your making assumptions as well. The only conclusion is that the castle exploded and Ganondorf beat Midna.

ScreamPaste
The only attack that even happened came from Midna.

Nephthys
Which we don't know connected.

ScreamPaste
It blew up the castle, Ganon was inside the castle, and afterward kicked her ass and left.

No matter how you slice it: Ganon tanked castle busting force, and was unharmed.

Nephthys
You're not the developer, you can't make that claim.



Well then you failed in your design.



Well, if there is sufficient evidence that anything other than your version of events seems foolish then yes, that would probably be the case. Otherwise, no, I guess he didn't stab him.



Repeatedly screaming (pun intended) your opinion over and over, does not make you right, it just means you have a keyboard.

MooCowofJustice
Jesus Christ this is ridiculous, it's like BT all over again.

The OBVIOUS INTENTION of the cut scene is that Midna struck Ganon. To deny this is to disagree with the cut scene, and when you disagree with a cut scene, you lose.

Tell me, Nephthys, have you played the game too?

Oh, I also give you some words from Maddox: "Nobody cares if your puns are intended."

BloodRain
Got a point that you cant say for certain what happened in that scene.

ScreamPaste
Nephthysis now claiming Link didn't stab Ganondorf because we don't see that directly either. no expression


haermm

The Scenario
But we can say the context and end result of the scene make it obvious.

Nephthys
No it isn't. The obvious intention is to show that they're going to fight, or someone is going to do something violent. In fact, to me it seems more obvious that the explosion was Ganon's counter-attack, but thats the point, we don't know what happened.



No, but I watched it on youtube over and over again and I don't see how that changes anything.



thumb up

BloodRain
Where did he get the horse if he teleported from the castle?

ScreamPaste
Probably created it.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Nephthys
No it isn't. The obvious intention is to show that they're going to fight, or someone is going to do something violent. In fact, to me it seems more obvious that the explosion was Ganon's counter-attack, but thats the point, we don't know what happened.



No, but I watched it on youtube over and over again and I don't see how that changes anything.

You cannot be serious. In fact, I don't even believe you. But please, try to explain how the more obvious intention is that Ganon counter attacked.

I expected that. I've had this same argument with BT, and it wasn't any better when he said it.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
You cannot be serious. In fact, I don't even believe you. But please, try to explain how the more obvious intention is that Ganon counter attacked.

I expected that. I've had this same argument with BT, and it wasn't any better when he said it.

Agreed, apparently the best explanation is one that factors in things he randomly invented, rather than what we see happening?

But yeah. Ganondorf TK's the party and knocks each of their heads off in turn.

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Agreed, apparently the best explanation is one that factors in things he randomly invented, rather than what we see happening?

But yeah. Ganondorf TK's the party and knocks each of their heads off in turn.

Quistis uses Mighty Guard on the party and Rinoa uses Angel Wing, throwing magic after magic at Ganondorf without mercy.

Burning thought
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Jesus Christ this is ridiculous, it's like BT all over again.


Well I cant be the only person who has common sense on KMC. Even I am not arrogent enough to claim thus. The midna scene is not a feat for anything, if it was a strike then this would have to be "fiery head" Ganon, in which case we would need its feats.

I would not be surprised if only one member of this party could easily handle dorf if they can appretly run around the planet and strike or call meteors.

Also I would like to see Ganons reaction time in a cutscene.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Burning thought
Well I cant be the only person who has common sense on KMC. Even I am not arrogent enough to claim thus. The midna scene is not a feat for anything, if it was a strike then this would have to be "fiery head" Ganon, in which case we would need its feats.

I would not be surprised if only one member of this party could easily handle dorf if they can appretly run around the planet and strike or call meteors.

Also I would like to see Ganons reaction time in a cutscene.

You think Ganon's floating head will be immaterial. You also just suggested that an immaterial Ganon will have higher durability than a physical body. That idea is ridiculous. What was that you said about common sense?

That's probably similar to how Sephirroth can blow up the galaxy.

Doesn't need to happen in a cut scene for you.

Burning thought
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
You think Ganon's floating head will be immaterial. You also just suggested that an immaterial Ganon will have higher durability than a physical body. That idea is ridiculous. What was that you said about common sense?

That's probably similar to how Sephirroth can blow up the galaxy.

Doesn't need to happen in a cut scene for you.

I can see through it, its fiery and smokey. It looks as difficult to pierce with a sword as any mist or fire, and it could indeed be magically immaterial. It either has no resistance as it doesnt need it, since its immaterial OR if its as physical as you assume, this form has shown durability feats greater than other Ganon forms, ofc assuming again that he was struck.

Solarsystem, and not likely. Afterall nobody would make an illusion of them running around the planet, it would not make sense.

Sure does, his NPC A.I+gameplay mechanic balance in a player fight does not=canon event or reaction.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Burning thought
I can see through it, its fiery and smokey. It looks as difficult to pierce with a sword as any mist or fire, and it could indeed be magically immaterial. It either has no resistance as it doesnt need it, since its immaterial OR if its as physical as you assume, this form has shown durability feats greater than other Ganon forms, ofc assuming again that he was struck.

Solarsystem, and not likely. Afterall nobody would make an illusion of them running around the planet, it would not make sense.

Sure does, his NPC A.I+gameplay mechanic balance in a player fight does not=canon event or reaction.

If it's physical, then Ganon without skin is supposed to be more durable then Ganon with a body. Silly idea is silly.

Well no, it wouldn't make sense. But having Midna attack at Ganon when he's immaterial wouldn't really make sense either, now would it?

You personally don't need anything. Your entire argument for Kain's speed is based on gameplay. And as I've said before, Ganon's isn't even gameplay as he's an NPC.

ScreamPaste
Here we go again.

Let me just say this:
1. Ganon doesn't even need the feat.
2. I'm still not letting them ignore it.
3. I don't see the FF8 party hurting Ganondorf at all
4. He TK's them all and kicks their heads off.

Burning thought
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
If it's physical, then Ganon without skin is supposed to be more durable then Ganon with a body. Silly idea is silly.

Well no, it wouldn't make sense. But having Midna attack at Ganon when he's immaterial wouldn't really make sense either, now would it?

You personally don't need anything. Your entire argument for Kain's speed is based on gameplay. And as I've said before, Ganon's isn't even gameplay as he's an NPC.

If its not physical then durability is not even a factor, as I said.

Yes it would if she was ignorant to him being untouchable, and her weapon is not necesserily enitrely physical, infact I am pretty certain its more magical than physical.

Nah, and your missing the point. And btw Ganon being an NPC does not exclude him from being gameplay so I dont know what your trying to claim here....

When has he Tked more than one enemy scream?

ScreamPaste
TP.

Zant beats the light spirit, Link, and Midna simultaneously.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Burning thought
If its not physical then durability is not even a factor, as I said.

Yes it would if she was ignorant to him being untouchable, and her weapon is not necesserily enitrely physical, infact I am pretty certain its more magical than physical.

Nah, and your missing the point. And btw Ganon being an NPC does not exclude him from being gameplay so I dont know what your trying to claim here....

When has he Tked more than one enemy scream?

Obviously, but silly idea is still silly.

So now you think that he is intangible, and that the weapon itself is more magical than physical. Why are you arguing?

Sorry, but that is what your Kain argument is based on. You know, that he can think, perceive and move in like...I don't even know the number. The point is that you personally do not need anything, so don't ask for it.

Midna + Light Spirit.

Burning thought
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Obviously, but silly idea is still silly.

So now you think that he is intangible, and that the weapon itself is more magical than physical. Why are you arguing?

Sorry, but that is what your Kain argument is based on. You know, that he can think, perceive and move in like...I don't even know the number. The point is that you personally do not need anything, so don't ask for it.

Midna + Light Spirit.

No not really, that was kinda the idea.

Because we dont actually see it connect, and if he is not physical then the pressure even if we assume it was from him being struck is irrelevent.

No, its based on a scripted ability, its not a "gameplay mechanic" like an NPC reacting to blows/strikes for the sake of gameplay.

I dont recall him doing it to them at the same time, show vid again plz+time he does it.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
TP.

Zant beats the light spirit, Link, and Midna simultaneously.

I do not recall him picking them up and hold them simultaneously if your talking about when he places a object in Links head.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Burning thought
No not really, that was kinda the idea.

Because we dont actually see it connect, and if he is not physical then the pressure even if we assume it was from him being struck is irrelevent.

No, its based on a scripted ability, its not a "gameplay mechanic" like an NPC reacting to blows/strikes for the sake of gameplay.

I dont recall him doing it to them at the same time, show vid again plz+time he does it.


No, it's definitely a stupid idea.

But if it's magical, surely magic can affect the immaterial.

Ganon being able to block it is a scripted ability. The only difference between it and Kain's move is that Ganon is an NPC.

You've seen the whole thing. He TK's them both when he turns Midna into a creature of the Light World which makes her pink and black. Remember when the big snake came out of the water with a ball of light in it's mouth? That was Zant.

Burning thought
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
No, it's definitely a stupid idea.

But if it's magical, surely magic can affect the immaterial.

Ganon being able to block it is a scripted ability. The only difference between it and Kain's move is that Ganon is an NPC.

You've seen the whole thing. He TK's them both when he turns Midna into a creature of the Light World which makes her pink and black. Remember when the big snake came out of the water with a ball of light in it's mouth? That was Zant.

"possible", that does not mean the "physics" based on the castles explosions would effect the immaterial though.

And therefore he is under the effects of gameplay mechanics and balance and its not scripted per say, that is. If you dont use that move, he never reacted to it. Just like how its not canon that Kain used it at that exact moment in the game, its only canon Kain has that power.

I know, hence why I dont recall him Tking them all at once. Can you prove the creature was being Tked? and not just corrupted or something? Tk only lifts, it does not cause action.

ScreamPaste
Hm, Ganondorf could possess the party one at a time, too. haermm

MooCowofJustice
It's really not even worth it to post to BT anymore. So I won't.

Burning thought
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Hm, Ganondorf could possess the party one at a time, too. haermm

Would not be surprised if one of them can resist or protect with a spell against possession.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
It's really not even worth it to post to BT anymore. So I won't.

And its not even my birthday!

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Here we go again.

Let me just say this:
1. Ganon doesn't even need the feat.
2. I'm still not letting them ignore it.
3. I don't see the FF8 party hurting Ganondorf at all
4. He TK's them all and kicks their heads off.

Mighty Guard *hint hint*

The Scenario
So, BT is now arguing that Ganondorf's head was intangible based on appearance alone in an attempt to invalidate the feat. He has also argued that Midna's attack was more magical than physical, but was still unable to strike Ganondorf. Fine, we can play that.

By BT's own argument, Ganondorf's intangibility renders him immune to magical attack. What now?

Ganondorf could simply use his Eternal Storm And Darkness Curse (which prevented the sun from rising, and prevented Link's magic from making the sun rise in Wind Waker) quickly followed by his Darkness Technique (A Link to the Past) in order to become both invisible and intangible.

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by The Scenario
So, BT is now arguing that Ganondorf's head was intangible based on appearance alone in an attempt to invalidate the feat. He has also argued that Midna's attack was more magical than physical, but was still unable to strike Ganondorf. Fine, we can play that.

By BT's own argument, Ganondorf's intangibility renders him immune to magical attack. What now?

Ganondorf could simply use his Eternal Storm And Darkness Curse (which prevented the sun from rising, and prevented Link's magic from making the sun rise in Wind Waker) quickly followed by his Darkness Technique (A Link to the Past) in order to become both invisible and intangible.

Ganondorf didn't learn his technique of Darkness until he permanently became Ganon (when he got the complete Triforce).

MooCowofJustice
Would like to know why that matters. Wasn't aware we specified a Ganondorf at a specific point in time.

Unless you're using the name as a reason. I'm comfortable with saying ScreamPaste just means Ganon as a whole when he says Ganondorf. Ganondorf is merely a cooler name.

Burning thought
Originally posted by The Scenario
So, BT is now arguing that Ganondorf's head was intangible based on appearance alone in an attempt to invalidate the feat. He has also argued that Midna's attack was more magical than physical, but was still unable to strike Ganondorf. Fine, we can play that.

By BT's own argument, Ganondorf's intangibility renders him immune to magical attack. What now?

Ganondorf could simply use his Eternal Storm And Darkness Curse (which prevented the sun from rising, and prevented Link's magic from making the sun rise in Wind Waker) quickly followed by his Darkness Technique (A Link to the Past) in order to become both invisible and intangible.

Its not a feat, I dont care how you try and swing it, we dont see Midna strike. And I didnt "argue" it, I made a series of seperate explanations for what could have happened.

No, by my argument either her magic attack was just too weak to harm Dorf, in which case he destroyed her which collapsed his castle, or perhaps both powers destroyed the castle, or her magic created a physical shockwave which destroyed the castle but obviously did nothing to an intangible Ganon who would not be hit by said shockwave, only the magical nature of the attack.

Neither of those are going to do much, infact how long did he take to do either? he may not even be able to get any of them off before getting killed.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Would like to know why that matters. Wasn't aware we specified a Ganondorf at a specific point in time.

Unless you're using the name as a reason. I'm comfortable with saying ScreamPaste just means Ganon as a whole when he says Ganondorf. Ganondorf is merely a cooler name.

Ganon seems to more often refer to the beast form. Which he remains in once he gains full power.

BloodRain
Ganons different forms cant use the same feats; TP Ganon can be knocked out or stunned by normal arrows, Ball and chain and even by being thrown to the ground. And damages by the MS and WolfLinks bites. All different to Dorf. In this instance can we really say Dorf survived the blast when he was in his dark magic ball form?

Burning thought
Assuming there was an actual blast at all (aimed at him) .

If he wants to take the form of a floating head then fine, but its featless apart from possibly being struck by Midnas magic power.

The Scenario
It's featless except possibly being able to withstand an exploding castle, is possibly immune to magical attack, is possibly able to destroy a castle in a second, and is possibly intangible to everything.

Every time you suggest a new possible explanation, you give Ganondorf a new feat. Midna's magical attack being too weak is your new argument. Let's go over this again: Midna, without the Fused Shadows, can TK a bridge larger than the pillar Link lifted with the Golden Gauntlets and Zant could TK her easily with Ganondorf's power. With a fraction of the power of the Fused Shadows, Midna killed Zant with a strand of her hair. Now, at full power, full transformation, Midna's magic was too weak to harm Ganondorf. Ganondorf then proves his superiority by crushing the Fused Shadows with one hand. Recall that a single Fused Shadow could tranform a pathetically weak enemy (Deku Baba) into a 30 foot 3 headed acid spewing boss monster. It's the most powerful magic the Twili can muster, and Ganondorf breaks it one handed.

Still, Ganondorf has taken a blast of fire from Valoo, the Rito's resident diety, unharmed, killed the Deku Tree and Jabu-Jabu, the Kokiri and Zora dieties, respectively. He's frozen the Zora's Domain, source of Hyrule's water, twice now and caused Death Mountain to erupt several times. He destroyed Greatfish Isle and created a storm than spanned all the Great Sea. Why is it so hard to believe that he can tank an exploding castle, or cause a castle to explode, since he's already collapsed a castle onto himself in OoT and took no damage. That one was done "with his last breath," too, and not his apparently full power like in TP.

Hell, Ganondorf's floating head form was the one that convinced Zant that he was a god.

Burning thought
Originally posted by The Scenario
It's featless except possibly being able to withstand an exploding castle, is possibly immune to magical attack, is possibly able to destroy a castle in a second, and is possibly intangible to everything.

Every time you suggest a new possible explanation, you give Ganondorf a new feat. Midna's magical attack being too weak is your new argument. Let's go over this again: Midna, without the Fused Shadows, can TK a bridge larger than the pillar Link lifted with the Golden Gauntlets and Zant could TK her easily with Ganondorf's power. With a fraction of the power of the Fused Shadows, Midna killed Zant with a strand of her hair. Now, at full power, full transformation, Midna's magic was too weak to harm Ganondorf. Ganondorf then proves his superiority by crushing the Fused Shadows with one hand. Recall that a single Fused Shadow could tranform a pathetically weak enemy (Deku Baba) into a 30 foot 3 headed acid spewing boss monster. It's the most powerful magic the Twili can muster, and Ganondorf breaks it one handed.

Still, Ganondorf has taken a blast of fire from Valoo, the Rito's resident diety, unharmed, killed the Deku Tree and Jabu-Jabu, the Kokiri and Zora dieties, respectively. He's frozen the Zora's Domain, source of Hyrule's water, twice now and caused Death Mountain to erupt several times. He destroyed Greatfish Isle and created a storm than spanned all the Great Sea. Why is it so hard to believe that he can tank an exploding castle, or cause a castle to explode, since he's already collapsed a castle onto himself in OoT and took no damage. That one was done "with his last breath," too, and not his apparently full power like in TP.

Hell, Ganondorf's floating head form was the one that convinced Zant that he was a god.

Yes, a hundred "assumptions" that I have made, this is not a feat you understand?

I dont givehim anything if its just "possible", I create a large branching number of choices that lessen the fact its a feat at all, which its not. he breaks the physical helmet one handed, not necesserily the magic.

None of that is typically imrpessive when were talking about durability, their destructive feats, if not simply unique elemental magic. And since i have not been answered or shown a feat I assume we dont see him cast any of these larger weather based spells like the storm?

How does that speak much for his durability or power?

ScreamPaste
BT also seems to think Link's just some random child, his opinions can be wholly disregarded in Zelda debates, because that's what they are: biased opinions.

Anyway; on topic.

The thing is, people keep inventing new possibilities as evidence that "we don't know what happen!!1", except all of their examples are far less likely to have happened than what we see happen directly in the cutscene itself, and the intention of the cutscene.

Fact 1. Only attack that happened came from Midna.
Fact 2. Ganon was the target.
Fact 3. Ganon was present when this attack occured.
Fact 4. The castle exploded as the result of an attack.
Fact 5. We only have one attack to work with, it was Midna's.
Fact 6. Ganon was present when Midna's attack targettign him busted a freakin' castle.

^Cutscene.

There is no other valid logical conclusion.

Burning thought
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
than what we see happen directly in the

Wrong. Stopped reading.

ScreamPaste
Hey, look, BT made a useless post, contributed nothing to the thread, and trolled all at once. no expression

Burning thought
Apparently disagreeing with you and saying your wrong is also trolling? "sigh"

ScreamPaste
The trolling is your little crusade all over the forum against characters you know nothing about for some stupid bias and ruining threads as a result.

Burning thought
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The trolling is your little crusade all over the forum against characters you know nothing about for some stupid bias and ruining threads as a result.

This is trolling understand? getting angry because your wrong is one thing, attackin me is another, this is what starts trolling.

Ofc for once I will not take the bait and will leave you stranded and ignore your musings, Ill keep to the facts of LoZ thank you.

ScreamPaste
Neg.

This is trolling. Pretending you're right when all facts point otherwise, trolling. Pretending to be the arbiter of canon of a game you have no played to annoy people, trolling. Following a character to every thread they're in to annoy the people who actually know about him, trolling.


Calling you on your crap is not an attack, it's exactly what it is, telling you, that you, are, a, troll.

Burning thought
As I said, I am not going to bash you in return, your word is not canon, simple fact and neither is assuming. Getting angry and ranting about it is trolling for an emotional response. Just get out of my sight please?

BloodRain
... So back to Ganons floaty head durability\

Or something on-topic

Burning thought
Indeed, its durability is null. As the head is not physical, its just a burning, smokey mass that is irrelevant to this discussion. Because its featless and will not likely be the form Ganons going to take anyway.

The Scenario
It's not featless, you're just ignoring the feat.

Phanteros
Originally posted by The Scenario
It's not featless, you're just ignoring the feat. Scenerio, you don't have to argue, he's banned.

BloodRain
Originally posted by BloodRain
Ganons different forms cant use the same feats; TP Ganon can be knocked out or stunned by normal arrows, Ball and chain and even by being thrown to the ground. And damages by the MS and WolfLinks bites. All different to Dorf. In this instance can we really say Dorf survived the blast when he was in his dark magic ball form?

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
BT also seems to think Link's just some random child, his opinions can be wholly disregarded in Zelda debates, because that's what they are: biased opinions.

Anyway; on topic.

The thing is, people keep inventing new possibilities as evidence that "we don't know what happen!!1", except all of their examples are far less likely to have happened than what we see happen directly in the cutscene itself, and the intention of the cutscene.

Fact 1. Only attack that happened came from Midna.
Fact 2. Ganon was the target.
Fact 3. Ganon was present when this attack occured.
Fact 4. The castle exploded as the result of an attack.
Fact 5. We only have one attack to work with, it was Midna's.
Fact 6. Ganon was present when Midna's attack targettign him busted a freakin' castle.

^Cutscene.

There is no other valid logical conclusion.

Ganondorf charge towards Midna may have been an attack and a chain reaction led to the castle's explosion.

Facts 1,4, and 5 are opinions.

BloodRain
So unless that feat can be clarified what else has Ganon got?

MooCowofJustice
How are 1, 4, and 5 opinions? Your entire basis for saying Ganon doesn't have this feat is that "we don't see it, it didn't happen" but you want to say things like Ganon probably counterattacked or he's intangible.

Let's make the most logical conclusion based on what we see, according to your ideas. If we don't see it, it didn't happen.

SpadeKing
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Let's make the most logical conclusion based on what we see, according to your ideas. If we don't see it, it didn't happen.

If I told you Ganondorf was beaten by Navi and he had a heart attack and you never got to see a fight but you see Navi floating over his body ramming into him would you believe that?

MooCowofJustice
Well no, because, unlike the Navi vs Ganondorf, we see Midna attack at Ganon's general direction and then a bunch of other crap.

BloodRain
What if Navi charged at him then the screen goes to something else then returns?

MooCowofJustice
Then I'd have to see Ganondorf defeated and Navi not dead. 'cause, you know, at the end of Midna vs Ganondorf we see Ganon alive and he crushes Midna's stupid hat.

NemeBro
Ganondorf easily wins.

Only an idiot would even consider otherwise.

LLLLLink
Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia

Facts 1,4, and 5 are opinions.

Actually, facts 1, 4 and 5 are facts indeed, based on the information that was available watching the cutscene. To assume anything more than what we saw is just that, an assumption. So, until you can prove this assumption, it is nothing but garbage.

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by NemeBro
Ganondorf easily wins.

Only an idiot would even consider otherwise.

Well call me an idiot.

NemeBro
That would be rather redundant, wouldn't it?

LLLLLink
I'm surprised that he let that go, Neme.

TacDavey
Can't Ganon not be hurt by anything other than the Master Sword? I thought I heard that somewhere. And if that is true, there is no hope for the FF8 party.

LLLLLink
Originally posted by TacDavey
Can't Ganon not be hurt by anything other than the Master Sword? I thought I heard that somewhere. And if that is true, there is no hope for the FF8 party.

It is true that Ganondorf cant be defeated without the Master Sword, but the VGV rules say that Ganondorf must be denied this trait to make the matches closer to something someone might consider fair.

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by TacDavey
Can't Ganon not be hurt by anything other than the Master Sword? I thought I heard that somewhere. And if that is true, there is no hope for the FF8 party.

Ganon has been hurt by the Megaton Hammer/Biggoron Sword. He's even killed by the Silver Arrows.

BloodRain
^ And stunned (Beast) by the Ball and chain, normal arrows, being thrown to the ground and hurt by Wolf Links bites. (Latter is questioned on)

LLLLLink
But, he can't be defeated without the Master Sword. smile

Also note that the person swinging that hammer, etc. is a 1000+ tonner. thumb up

BloodRain
Or Silver arrows, are all holy/light weapons effective against him?

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by LLLLLink
But, he can't be defeated without the Master Sword. smile

Also note that the person swinging that hammer, etc. is a 1000+ tonner. thumb up

Link had no Master Sword when he killed Ganon for good. And the Megaton Hammer doesn't make earthquakes like Zell's fists.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Or Silver arrows, are all holy/light weapons effective against him?

Pretty much since the Master Sword is aka Blade of Evil's Bane. In other words, Holy and Vampire Killer would have much effect on him.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Link had no Master Sword when he killed Ganon for good. And the Megaton Hammer doesn't make earthquakes like Zell's fists.

Pretty much since the Master Sword is aka Blade of Evil's Bane. In other words, Holy and Vampire Killer would have much effect on him.

This part is a lie. And I don't know what Zell's fists are supposed to be.

This could be true, and it could not be. Personally I vote for the latter based on that the Light Arrows and Master Sword use divine power, essentially straight from the Goddesses themselves.

LLLLLink
Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Link had no Master Sword when he killed Ganon for good. And the Megaton Hammer doesn't make earthquakes like Zell's fists.



Pretty much since the Master Sword is aka Blade of Evil's Bane. In other words, Holy and Vampire Killer would have much effect on him.

Retcon.

No, the Master Sword has properties where it is clearly stated that it is required to defeat Ganon. Remember the failure of the Sages sword.

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by LLLLLink
Retcon.

No, the Master Sword has properties where it is clearly stated that it is required to defeat Ganon. Remember the failure of the Sages sword.

Retcon the first Zelda and LttP? I'm gonna stop believing Nintendo's timeline if they ever do such a thing because those two games are among the best and most famous (with OoT).

Link used the Magical Sword in LoZ 1 & 2. Ganon was killed with Silver Arrows which are the Light Arrows.

And yes Moocow, VampireKiller would hurt Ganon for it is divine too. So would Holy even though it's not divine but Ganon cannot stand holiness.

LLLLLink
Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Retcon the first Zelda and LttP? I'm gonna stop believing Nintendo's timeline if they ever do such a thing because those two games are among the best and most famous (with OoT).


You had better stop believing, then. I stopped.

BloodRain
Light arrows in Four swords have the same one-hit KO properties ans the Silver ones had.

But they're not 'straight from the Goddesses themselves.'

MooCowofJustice
Zelda prayed to the Goddesses for them in TP, they sent the Light Spirits (if I remember correctly). I suppose it's true, in TP at least they weren't directly from the Goddesses, but the Goddesses still made the Light Spirits. And I think a description of the arrows is Divine Power.

BloodRain
In TP Zelda only asks the Light spirits themselves, nor are the Spirits said to be directly made by the Goddesses. Only description is 'Sacred' light.

MooCowofJustice
The Goddesses created the Light Spirits to seal away the Fused Shadows. >_>

And I'm pretty sure she prays to the Goddesses themselves.

BloodRain
Wiki- ''Interestingly, when Lanayru reveals to Link the origin of the Fused Shadows, it mentions that three spirits were called by the Gods to seal the pieces away. This is explained that Midna had a piece of Fused Shadow in the Twilight Realm, and since there were 3 left, the Goddesses only needed the help of three.'' They already existed before they were called.

''Spirits of the light! Wielders of the great power that shines far and wide upon the lands of our world... In my hour of need, grant me the light to banish evil!'' Zelda TP.

TacDavey
Originally posted by LLLLLink
But, he can't be defeated without the Master Sword. smile

Also note that the person swinging that hammer, etc. is a 1000+ tonner. thumb up

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's true. Even after he smacks him around with the megaton, he has to go back and grab the Master Sword once the fire dims, and even then it didn't truly kill him...

In Wind Waker, Link has to go get the Master Sword to stop him too. He even tries when the blade isn't fully powered and it doesn't affect Ganon at all.

Also, light arrows seem to only stun him. They never really hurt him, not like the Master Sword does. It has always been the Master Sword that deals the finishing blow.

Holy may be able to stun him, but I'm pretty sure it can't be used to kill him.

BloodRain
Silver arrows in Loz and aLttp kill him, as does the Light arrow in Four swords.

MooCowofJustice
I didn't even know Ganon was in Four Swords. I thought that was Vaati.

BloodRain
Sorry, Four Swords Adventure.

Cyner
I still need to beat Four Swords Adventure but I have no friends to play the game with... my Smash friends are usually too busy or live to far away for consistent gaming...

BloodRain
Had the same problem till i gave up and read the ending on the net ;p

MasterSword777
The only Final Fantasy I've played is XII, and if that's any gauge of Final Fantasy characters then Ganondorf wins this fight easily.

BloodRain
No thats a gauge of XII characters.

MasterSword777
So are the guys in VIII much better than the party in XII?

BloodRain
/shrugs. They're different, all I know.

So how is it an easy win?

MasterSword777
The characters in XII just weren't that impressive IMO. Ganon has done things like turned the Golden Land into the Dark World, survived a castle falling on him, and broken the seal of the seven sages while trapped in a different world. I find these to be much more impressive feats than the things Vaan and his friends did.

Nephthys
Well Squall for one can create a giant beam attack that extends into space, other energy attacks and use various Limit breaks that kick ass AC Cloud style. Also in Dissidia he was going toe to toe with Sephiroth, beat Kuja and the Warrior of Light and beat a time-stopping Ultimecia twice. In fact I believe the second time she was Time Compressing, which would mean he beat TC Ultimecia solo.

Zell can create fissures in the ground with punches, showing how unbelievably freakin' stong he is and run around the planet in about 4 seconds.

Selphie can cast The End, which one-shots anything in the game except undead and a few of the bosses.

Rinoa has her dog Angelo, which is about as strong as Zell for some reason, can grant the team temporary invincibility and can, according to wiki, 'knock enemies into space and attack them 8 times, doing heavy physical damage to one enemy'. She can also activate her Angel wing state in which all her attack's become 5x as powerful and she turns into a magic-based beserker.

Irvine has a series of gun-based attacks including gert ****-off lazers and defence ignoring bullets etc.

Quistis can use a bunch of Blue magic, as indicated here- http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Blue_Magic_%28Final_Fantasy_VIII%29

Between all of that happening simultaneously, I think Ganon goes down.

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by MasterSword777
So are the guys in VIII much better than the party in XII?

XII characters (at least the ones you play as) are the second least impressive of all the Final Fantasy characters (FF1 would be the least impressive). IMO, this is how they all line up

FF6
FF8 (if not above FF6)
FF7
FF5
FF4
FFX
FFXII
FF1

I haven't play FF2, FF3, FFIX, or FFXIII so aren't in this list.

EDIT: I think I'm gonna have to rethink my list. Vaan & friends did defeat the Undying who can cause massive destruction.

ScreamPaste
I don't, considering non of it shows the power to put him down.

At best they can sting or stun him a little with their holy attacks. erm

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Nephthys
Zell can create fissures in the ground with punches, showing how unbelievably freakin' stong he is and run around the planet in about 4 seconds.

How big were these fissures, where was he, did it break anything significant?

I still think this planet run is probably similar to Supernova.

LLLLLink
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
How big were these fissures, where was he, did it break anything significant?

I still think this planet run is probably similar to Supernova.

He turns into a giant and runs around the world in a few steps, then shrinks again and begins the attack.
A giant running around like that would destroy anything in its path. This doesn't happen, obviously.

Nephthys
It's one of his Limit Breaks, all of which can be seen here- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UND7dleKDY8
Burning Rave (fissure) is at 0.30+, Different Beat (crater) is at 2.00 and My Final Heaven (planet thing) is at 2.20



It isn't, as he actually runs past his opponents fast enough to spin them round, then dissappears into the distance, then comes in from the opposite side of the screen, so unless he's running around the edge of vision and then into the screen, he actually runs around the world.



No. No, he doesn't.

ScreamPaste
Do we see him run around the world? I'm betting there's a midget with a dimension door in his ear where Zell runs to.


Regardless, nothing impressive next to Ganon who has city level destructive feats.

Nephthys
Yes, we actually see it.



I'm not aware of those, what are they.

MooCowofJustice
Will watch later.

These limit breaks sound fishier every time someone brings them up.

ScreamPaste
Freezing Zora's domain twice, busting an island, merging an entire dimension over all over Hyrule, actually, which is larger than, though less destructive.

He also has global feats such as a world wide storm and turning off the sun, both without his full power. The island busting happened without his full power as well.

LLLLLink
Originally posted by Nephthys
No. No, he doesn't.

You're right. I had mistaken My Final Heaven for something else.

Nephthys
How, does he just snap his fingers and make it so? How big is Zora's domain? Is it actual ice?



Ho, and how big as the island?



Not a destructive feat at all, it won't do anything here, particularily when the FF8 party have already survived the attempted merging of all space and time.



Not going to do anything. Plus this backs up a point made in another thread about whether the sun is actually a sun (big ball of gas), given that you can turn it off. erm

MooCowofJustice
It was blocked, "turning out the sun" is just a more fun phrase to use.

It might not have been blocked actually, eternal night would imply that he stopped the planet's rotation. Meh, one way or another he kept the sun from shining over the Great Sea.

ScreamPaste
ACTUALLY: Since the FF8 party only did through pure PIS, and that sort of giggly friendship power doesn't work on Ganon... It'll reduce them to spirits.

It's the entire head of the river, and he does it in a short time, without ever even being in Hyrule on one occasion.

slightly smaller than the one on which the forsaken fortress.

Means nothing of the sort. Means Ganon cast an eternal night, how he does is unknown.

This is more likely, but it doesn't matter as they'd have the exact same effect, except in scenario two, where the eternal night covers both halfs of the world, the entire world eventually freezes, where in Scenario 1, half burns while the other half freezes.

Nephthys
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
It was blocked, "turning out the sun" is just a more fun phrase to use.

It might not have been blocked actually, eternal night would imply that he stopped the planet's rotation. Meh, one way or another he kept the sun from shining over the Great Sea.

So that feat puts him roughly on par with Mr Burns eh? mmm

TacDavey
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
How big were these fissures, where was he, did it break anything significant?

I still think this planet run is probably similar to Supernova.

I think all of them are pretty similar to super nova. They're battle animations, you can't take them as fact.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
I think all of them are pretty similar to super nova. They're battle animations, you can't take them as fact.

Well, you're right about that. But we can't use Supernova or Blasting Zone to exclude ALL the animations, keep in mind that not all of them are exaggerated, some of them are accurate. For example... Cloud's Omnislash is just a bit slower than in the Gameplay, but it's still accurate as we can see all of his moves in the movie. Zell's Limit Break is also accurate (in my opinion) when you are pressing the buttons dealing punches and kicks to the monsters. I do believe his Final Heaven is totally animation, no one can run around Earth in 3 seconds, lol.

ScreamPaste
Would make travelling in game pretty redundant if Zell could piggy back the characters one at a time in under a minute.

Nephthys
Except that we see him do it. erm

Edit: Also, FF8's planet isn't nearly as big as our's. The entire things like, only the size of Africa or something.

NemeBro
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Would make travelling in game pretty redundant if Zell could piggy back the characters one at a time in under a minute. Yeah but Zell is awesome.

Therefore of course he can do it.

SpadeKing
Originally posted by Nephthys
Except that we see him do it. erm

Edit: Also, FF8's planet isn't nearly as big as our's. The entire things like, only the size of Africa or something.

Where did you get that from?

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