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Flash vs. Silver Surfer vs. Superman vs. Thor in a four way CIS OFF fight. The battle occurs on Godwheel, and the battlefield is indestructible. Wally is the Flash here, and the characters do not work as teams.

Combatants may use feats they've done on panel, not ones they've only threatened to do (black holes in eyes, for example.) And while CIS may be off, they're still heroes, so assume they are out for a KO, not the kill.

Opponents start .5 km apart from one another, with Surfer, Superman and Thor being 50 m in the air.


Who comes out on top?





Info on the battlefield: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwheel

Silver Surfer > Flash > Thor > Superman.

Everybody agrees.

CISless Flash pawns

Silver Surfer would murder these dudes before they exist. Yep, even Thor.

Heh. Is it too late to ban time travel? 3 out of the 4 can do it under their own power, so it's kind of pointless.

both SS and Thor would unleash an omni blast and take Flash out and knock Supes for a loop...

Originally posted by galactusischere
Silver Surfer > Flash > Thor > Superman.

Everybody agrees.

BINGO was his name-o

but imo onpinion, SS is a much greater threat than a couple of his enemies combined.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
both SS and Thor would unleash an omni blast and take Flash out and knock Supes for a loop...

Flash will ko them with an IMP before they can act. Superman can definitely pop Thor before he can even blink.

not sure how fast SS truly is but he has reacted in the space of a nano second or something like that.. i am sure he could pull it off before Flash could stop him...

that is also assuming SS isnt intangible when it happens or we forget how durable SS really is.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
not sure how fast SS truly is but he has reacted in the space of a nano second or something like that.. i am sure he could pull it off before Flash could stop him...

that is also assuming SS isnt intangible when it happens or we forget how durable SS really is.

Flash has done things in picoseconds. Also reaction has nothing to do with sufficient movement in time. For example, someone who can move 5ft before I can move 1in will pop me without defense, even if I can see them moving their arm in slow motion.

Flash.

silver surfer maybe faster than flash in space, when going in a straight direction, but he cant pull turns like flash, and isnt nearly as fast on earth

1) Wally West
2) Thor
3) Silver Surfer
4) Superman

Superman

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Silver Surfer would murder these dudes before they exist. Yep, even Thor.

Thor has shown he can protect himself against the effects of time. And murder Thor how? Go back in time and kill him in his crib? Yes because Odin is obviously going to allow that. Killing his parents before Thor was born? I don't see Norrin killing either Gaea the Elder Goddess or Odin any time soon.

time travel is self-bfr, no?

probably silver srufer, flash or superman, then thor

Yea, that can be argued.

Surfer wins, imo.
Flash is doomed because Surfer would immediately bust out planet destroying blasts whilst his board pings around the battlefield at thousands of multiples of C, decapitating everything that is not silver or Surfer

oh and Surfer would radiate Kryptonite as he was doing all this.

if the board should break or if Surfer feels vicious, he could instantly make many multiple boards that all go out to decapitate his opponents.

Surfer could also trap Flash and Superman in the board, go intangible and wait for the others to destroy each other....

He would also irradiate Cosmic Energy around himself while doing it.
Flash ain't punching or speeding through that stuff.

Cosmic Energy> Speed Force

Energy of the Universe which covers speed > Over the essence of Speed itself.

Silver surfer>superman>Thor>>>>>Flash

Originally posted by janus77
Surfer wins, imo.
Flash is doomed because Surfer would immediately bust out planet destroying blasts whilst his board pings around the battlefield at thousands of multiples of C, decapitating everything that is not silver or Surfer

oh and Surfer would radiate Kryptonite as he was doing all this.

if the board should break or if Surfer feels vicious, he could instantly make many multiple boards that all go out to decapitate his opponents.

Surfer could also trap Flash and Superman in the board, go intangible and wait for the others to destroy each other....

I love how in his scenario everyone else is a brainless dolt who just stands there doing nothing while Norrin goes all out.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I love how everyone else is a brainless dolt...
Flash, Thor ...



seriously though, everyone else is doing something - attempting to kill each other, attempting to evade mobile decapitation devices that go at thousands of times the speed of light and well, they're basically very preoccupied with the business of dying.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Silver surfer>superman>Thor>>>>>Flash

IMO

Silver Surfer>Flash>Superman>Thor

With Supes vulnerability to enchanted items always being in question.
Supes 5.2/10 over Thor but dammit if that hammer was an axe it should take his head off!

Originally posted by janus77
Flash, Thor ...



seriously though, everyone else is doing something - attempting to kill each other, attempting to evade mobile decapitation devices that go at thousands of times the speed of light and well, they're basically very preoccupied with the business of dying.

Well in the scenario you posted Surfer won because of the tactics you listed but it seemed as if everyone else was brain dead or not using their powers.

I think CIS-less Wally should win unless someone of the others can destroy the planet first which I doubt.

Flash or Surfer..i can't really decide..probably Surfer..

thor isn't fast enough to win, flash isn't durable enough, supermans weaknesses are too exploitable but surfer should win superman in second now that i think about it

Silver Surfer is the best overall combo of speed, durabilty, power output and versatility. Without CIS, he takes it.

Thor.

Originally posted by Trackz
thor isn't fast enough to win mjolnir can rectify that by unleashing hell omnidirectionally.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
mjolnir can rectify that by unleashing hell omnidirectionally.

Recently he is as weak as the rest of the Avengers but he like the rest are due for a HUGE upgrade!

In his defence he is the only hero to survive the last 5 years butt whooping, but with Ragnarok, his hammer's reforging by Strange, his banishment from Valhalla, his doubting of his strength and Siege.

He'll be back worthy of Odin's position!

Originally posted by janus77
oh and Surfer would radiate Kryptonite as he was doing all this.
*shrugs* That's not a tactic in this battle. He's only threatened to do something similar to Gladiator. Not actually shown it. Now red solar radiation, I'd bet on Surfer doing that...
Originally posted by Warlord
I think CIS-less Wally should win unless someone of the others can destroy the planet first which I doubt.
Thor's the only one with enough power to possibly destroy Godwheel under normal circumstances, and its indestructible for this battle anyway.

This comes down to Thor and Wally. I favor Wally because of his reaction time as he would strike first. If it wasn't for that I'd give it to Thor.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Recently he is as weak as the rest of the Avengers but he like the rest are due for a HUGE upgrade!

In his defence he is the only hero to survive the last 5 years butt whooping, but with Ragnarok, his hammer's reforging by Strange, his banishment from Valhalla, his doubting of his strength and Siege.

He'll be back worthy of Odin's position!

Weak how?

What huge upgrade?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
This comes down to Thor and Wally. I favor Wally because of his reaction time as he would strike first. If it wasn't for that I'd give it to Thor.
I made this thread with you in mind.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I made this thread with you in mind.

You bastard!

Wally and Thor are my two favorite characters.

y3Z2MP8vMWU&feature

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You bastard!
I know.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Wally and Thor are my two favorite characters.
I know again.

Surfer go intengible, and kick ass. All of them.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Weak how?

did'nt you read anything I wrote brfore that sentence? The whole purpose of the last few years was to kick the Avengers asses.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
This comes down to Thor and Wally. I favor Wally because of his reaction time as he would strike first. If it wasn't for that I'd give it to Thor. I've been going back and forth with that as well. While it's true that Wally certainly has the speed to strike first, he isn't just fighting Thor here, he also has Supes and Surfer to think about -- so he likely wouldn't have much time to spend on a single opponent. That said, I'm hard-pressed to see Wally KO'ing Thor before Thor unleashed an omni-attack similiar to this:

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/1678/thoromni1.th.jpg


...Or at bare minimum, put up some type of defensive shielding. *shrugs*

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
1) Wally West
2) Thor
3) Silver Surfer
4) Superman

Originally posted by Galan007
I've been going back and forth with that as well. While it's true that Wally certainly has the speed to strike first, he isn't just fighting Thor here, he also has Supes and Surfer to think about -- thus he likely wouldn't have much time to spend on a single opponent. That said, I'm hard-pressed to see Wally KO'ing Thor before Thor unleashed an omni-attack similiar to this:

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/1678/thoromni1.th.jpg


...Or at bare minimum, put up some type of defensive shielding. *shrugs*

That is a good point. With fast and durable opponents such as Norrin and Clark, he wouldn't be able to focus on Thor alone. I think an attack like this would be even more effective:

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/th_OmniLightning.jpghttp://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/th_OmniLightning2.jpg

^ Those'd work too.

I just posted the scan I did, because it shows Surfer (a combatant in this thread) and Warlock being owned by said omni-blast.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Those'd work too.

I just posted the scan I did, because it shows Surfer (a combatant in this thread) and Warlock being owned by said omni-blast.

Good man. Thor's omnidirectional attacks are really badass.

So Galan, how do you think Sentry vs. Thor is going to turn out next week?

^ Even though I am certain Sentry will be stopped before this event is over, I have a gut feeling that Thor won't be the one to do it.

CIS-less Flash FTW

Infinity mass punch, picosecond speedblitz, speed steal.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Even though I am certain Sentry will be stopped before this event is over, I have a gut feeling that Thor won't be the one to do it.



Yea so do I. It's weird, Sentry fans are expecting Thor to beat down Sentry while the Thor fans are expecting Sentry to beat down Thor. I guess the different fan bases are preparing themselves for the worst.

I want Thor to beat the utter shit out of Reynolds while his using all of the power of the Sentry, and when Thor thinks his won, Reynolds should come back as the Void and take the advantage. That way everyone would be happy.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I want Thor to beat the utter shit out of Reynolds while his using all of the power of the Sentry, and when Thor thinks his won, Reynolds should come back as the Void and take the advantage. That way everyone would be happy. I like it.

Generally in these types of threads when you have people similar in power level in 3 person plus battle I'll give to the most versatile in the group unless there is a major weakness somewhere for that person.

I generally do this because in situations like this it is generally the most versatile person that is best suited to adapt to any number of foes that attack them or to best survive scenarios because their versatile enough to do so.

My problem here though is while Surfer imo is the most versatile overall. Thor in a CIS free environment is almost as versatile with a magic edge.

Plus on another note I believe Thor's magically powered super attacks some shown already have the best chance of taking people out as quickly as possible.

Flash's speed will pose a problem but I feel in essence he lacks the oomph needed here to be the clear cut majority winner.

Superman obviously is powerful but has ready to exploit weaknesses.

Surfer physical stats just aren't enough to match Thor's in a straight up fight and he doesn't have enough of a versatility edge for me to give it to him.

So I think Thor is the clear cur majority winner here because he is still extremely versatile with a lot bang as well.

Those attacks wont work on Wally. He can move through them and most of all, he can steal the KE of everyone on the field and their attacks.

Originally posted by Galan007
I like it.

I'm a better writer than current Loeb.

The sheer and multi-faceted power of a CIS-less Surfer is beyond mortal ken. Victory is likely his.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Those attacks wont work on Wally. He can move through them and most of all, he can steal the KE of everyone on the field and their attacks. a.) It takes time for Flash to speed-steal, b.) I have an extremely hard time believing he'd be absorbing the KE of his opponents' energy attacks. none

Like I said earlier, with his attention having to be divided between 3 very powerful beings, I don't feel that Wally would be able to cause the damage required to down each one of them, before he himself was one-shotted.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'm a better writer than current Loeb. Your stories actually make sense.

Originally posted by Mindship
The sheer and multi-faceted power of a CIS-less Surfer is beyond mortal ken. Victory is likely his.

Luckily Thor is an immortal.

Originally posted by Galan007
Your stories actually make sense.

Yea, Loeb is horrible nowadays. He single handedly made the Ultimate Universe unreadable in like a few issues.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yea, Loeb is horrible nowadays. He single handedly made the Ultimate Universe unreadable in like a few issues.

Good thing it ended.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Luckily Thor is an immortal. Congrats. I didn't think anyone would notice.

Originally posted by Mindship
Congrats. I didn't think anyone would notice.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Luckily Thor is an immortal.

Is he?

Originally posted by 753
Good thing it ended.

Nah, it's still going. Mark Millar is back so hopefully he'll make Ultimate Marvel readable again.

My god, Ultimate Captain America is so badass.

His like the Midnighter of Marvel except cooler.

I think in a CIS free environment Surfer benefits the most. He's always holding back, always offered bad guys a second chance even during their fights, taking unnecessary hits, etc.

But I think if you're of the opinion that B&T Thor wasn't under Warrior's Madness and that that was what Thor is capable of when not holding back, you've gotta go with him to win this.

Otherwise, I'd pick Surfer. He's shown the speed/tracking/reactions/cosmic awareness to deal with the faster competition, plus has plenty of strength, plus has arguably the highest energy output here barring the Godblast.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I think in a CIS free environment Surfer benefits the most. He's always holding back, always offered bad guys a second chance even during their fights, taking unnecessary hits, etc.

But I think if you're of the opinion that B&T Thor wasn't under Warrior's Madness and that that was what Thor is capable of when not holding back, you've gotta go with him to win this.

Otherwise, I'd pick Surfer. He's shown the speed/tracking/reactions/cosmic awareness to deal with the faster competition, plus has plenty of strength, plus has arguably the highest energy output here barring the Godblast.

That's the same case with Thor. He also constantly holds back. This has been proven multiple times even if the cost is him getting beaten around. Thor might even say his not holding back or his going at it full power but even in that kind of situation he apparently is still holding back. He just brings himself down to his opponent's level, and is going all out in the sense of being on that level if that makes sense. That's one of the ways his adapted to spending so much time around mortals.

I don't see why someone who read the event would not assume that's the case.

Barring even the Godblast I don't haven't seen evidence for Norrin to support him having a higher energy output than Thor.

Surfer/Flash
Superman
Thor

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
That's the same case with Thor. He also constantly holds back. This has been proven multiple times even if the cost is him getting beaten around. Thor might even say his not holding back or his going at it full power but even in that kind of situation he apparently is still holding back. He just brings himself down to his opponent's level, and is going all out in the sense of being on that level if that makes sense. That's one of the ways his adapted to spending so much time around mortals.
I get that. But wouldn't you agree that SS (even recently against BRB) holds back far more often and attempts to reason with his opponents? Thor'll try to do it at the start, give up, and usually own. Then there's the rare cases that doesn't work, and he'll have to stop holding back during the fight, then own. Surfer's holding back all throughout the fight, trying to talk with and reason with the enemy, etc. It's one of the reasons I don't like Surfer as much as I like Thor.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I don't see why someone who read the event would not assume that's the case.
Granted. But, if you're holding B&T Thor as the CIS-less standard...may I use Uni-Lord Surfer?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Barring even the Godblast I don't haven't seen evidence for Norrin to support him having a higher energy output than Thor.
Multiple planet destroying blasts, destroying a solar system, powering up and causing a black hole...c'mon.

Originally posted by Enyalus

I get that. But wouldn't you agree that SS (even recently against BRB) holds back far more often and attempts to reason with his opponents? Thor'll try to do it at the start, give up, and usually own. Then there's the rare cases that doesn't work, and he'll have to stop holding back during the fight, then own. Surfer's holding back all throughout the fight, trying to talk with and reason with the enemy, etc. It's one of the reasons I don't like Surfer as much as I like Thor.


Granted. But, if you're holding B&T Thor as the CIS-less standard...may I use Uni-Lord Surfer?


Multiple planet destroying blasts, destroying a solar system, powering up and causing a black hole...c'mon. Imo, the Surfer/Bill fight is a poor reason to think Surfer always holds back to that degree. They (Surfer and Bill) are good friends, after all.

I haven't seen anyone trying to use B&T Thor... Yet.

Power output is meaningless in a Surfer/Thor confrontation. Energy absorption is where it's at.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He just brings himself down to his opponent's level, and is going all out in the sense of being on that level if that makes sense.
doesn't make sense. just sounds like you're making excuses for his poor performances.


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


Barring even the Godblast I don't haven't seen evidence for Norrin to support him having a higher energy output than Thor. can't surfer create blackholes?

blackholes are far more destructive and devastating in power than a godblast.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I get that. But wouldn't you agree that SS (even recently against BRB) holds back far more often and attempts to reason with his opponents? Thor'll try to do it at the start, give up, and usually own. Then there's the rare cases that doesn't work, and he'll have to stop holding back during the fight, then own. Surfer's holding back all throughout the fight, trying to talk with and reason with the enemy, etc. It's one of the reasons I don't like Surfer as much as I like Thor.

Thor isn't as pacifistic as Norrin true and I'm not debating that, I'm just saying that Thor also constantly holds back. Even when he says he doesn't. And most of the time he fights like more of a brick than Norrin does.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Granted. But, if you're holding B&T Thor as the CIS-less standard...may I use Uni-Lord Surfer?



Clarify that. Uni-Lord Surfer is usually considered Surfer after he absorbed all of that power which is like me using King Thor. Plus from what I can gather it didn't actually happen. It was sort of an in story "What If?".

Originally posted by Enyalus
Multiple planet destroying blasts, destroying a solar system, powering up and causing a black hole...c'mon.

Planet busting is something Thor can do with his strength. That doesn't impress me. Thor has one shot Beta Ray Bill with a blast, hurt Mangog and put him on his ass with a blast etc.

When has Silver Surfer destroyed a Solar System?

Yeah, Thor's never created a black hole but how much energy does it take to do so? Mjolnir's energy reserves are so deep that it has enough power to burn with the energy of half a million Suns.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Mjolnir's energy reserves are so deep that it has enough power to burn with the energy of half a million Suns. wow..galactus should just suck on mjolnir then...that would feed him for eons.

where do you pull this garbage?

Originally posted by Galan007
Imo, the Surfer/Bill fight is a poor reason to think Surfer always holds back to that degree. They (Surfer and Bill) are good friends, after all.
He's done the same to Doom, to Super Skrull, Morg, etc. Plenty of people. He always does it.

Originally posted by Galan007
I haven't seen anyone trying to use B&T Thor... Yet.
*shrugs* The omnidirectional blast scan you used was from B&T. I was just assuming....and, to be clear, I have no problems using B&T as an example of a Thor not holding back. I was simply saying barring that episode, I think Surfer takes it. 'Cause obviously, with that episode, Thor came off as much more powerful.

Originally posted by Galan007
Power output is meaningless in a Surfer/Thor confrontation. Energy absorption is where it's at.
Agreed. I was talking about the overall match, with Flash and Superman in the mix.

Originally posted by Starscream M
doesn't make sense. just sounds like you're making excuses for his poor performances.

No, I'm going by what's actually happened. Thor's literally said his using his full might, and then goes on to say that he was holding back in an comic. Go back to the kids table son. The adults are talking.

Originally posted by Starscream M
can't surfer create blackholes?

blackholes are far more destructive and devastating in power than a godblast.

Black holes are more destructive simply due to their nature. They are not however more powerful.

In the end black holes are just cosmic cheese feats. Multiple beings can survive in a black hole. Those same beings would be erased by a Godblast. Norrin is a good example. Even Bill was being sucked in two different directions by black holes and I think at a point his limbs were even inside of them, but he through sheer strength and no leverage over came their pull and destroyed the machine that was creating them.

Logic says, that a being who can survive a black hole should be nigh invulnerable. That's obviously not the case.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yeah, Thor's never created a black hole but how much energy does it take to do so? An evolved Stardust easily whipped one up -- And BRB (Thor's rough equal) was more than a match for that version of 'dust. *shrugs* I don't think the ability to create a singularity has much of a bearing on a given character's overall power.

Originally posted by Galan007
An evolved Stardust easily whipped one up -- And BRB (Thor's rough equal) was more than a match for that version of 'dust. *shrugs* I don't think the ability to create a singularity has much of a bearing on a given character's overall power. maybe not...but singularity is still more destructive than anything else any of these characters can do.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor isn't as pacifistic as Norrin true and I'm not debating that, I'm just saying that Thor also constantly holds back. Even when he says he doesn't. And most of the time he fights like more of a brick than Norrin does.
I know. And I agree to an extent, although I'd add that Norrin fights without using his exotic abilities just as often as Thor does. Blasts and fists. That's about it. Just like Thor.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Clarify that. Uni-Lord Surfer is usually considered Surfer after he absorbed all of that power which is like me using King Thor. Plus from what I can gather it didn't actually happen. It was sort of an in story "What If?".
Pretty sure its canon, and he absorbed souls, not power per se. There are two binary suns in Godwheel, so amping is a tactic. Not that I'm claiming he'd do it even without CIS. But it wasn't like B&T Thor wasn't 'drawing strength from his madness' and thus somewhat amped, either.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
When has Silver Surfer destroyed a Solar System?
Uni-Lord saga. Haha.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yeah, Thor's never created a black hole but how much energy does it take to do so? Mjolnir's energy reserves are so deep that it has enough power to burn with the energy of half a million Suns.
I didn't know that. Do you happen to know the issue #? 'Cause that sounds cool. And if not, don't worry about it, I believe you.

Originally posted by Galan007
An evolved Stardust easily whipped one up -- And BRB (Thor's rough equal) was more than a match for that version of 'dust. *shrugs* I don't think the ability to create a singularity has much of a bearing on a given character's overall power.

Another good example.

It shouldn't. I don't understand why anyone would be impressed by black holes at this point. Just cosmic cheese.

Originally posted by Enyalus
He's done the same to Doom, to Super Skrull, Morg, etc. Plenty of people. He always does it.


*shrugs* The omnidirectional blast scan you used was from B&T. I was just assuming....and, to be clear, I have no problems using B&T as an example of a Thor not holding back. I was simply saying barring that episode, I think Surfer takes it. 'Cause obviously, with that episode, Thor came off as much more powerful.


Agreed. I was talking about the overall match, with Flash and Superman in the mix. I know Surfer normally holds back, but the Bill instance was just sickening.

B&T Thor may have been more physically capable then standard Thor, but his prowess with Mjolnir certainly didn't improve. That's why I didn't see a problem with posting a Mjolnir feat from the B&T arc as an argument for standard Thor..? If it's going to cause a fuss, we can revert to the omni-blast scans Rage posted earlier.

absorption ftw.

Originally posted by Starscream M
wow..galactus should just suck on mjolnir then...that would feed him for eons.

where do you pull this garbage?

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_MjolnirBurnwithMillSuns.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_ThorvsSurtur3.jpg

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_MjolnirBurnwithMillSuns.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_ThorvsSurtur3.jpg dood...that's hyperbole. also neither scan says it has the energy of a million sons.

one says 'heat'.

another says 'might'.

Originally posted by Galan007
An evolved Stardust easily whipped one up -- And BRB (Thor's rough equal) was more than a match for that version of 'dust. *shrugs* I don't think the ability to create a singularity has much of a bearing on a given character's overall power.
To me it came off as Stardust just "creating" the black hole rather than doing what Surfer did. More of a transmutation type thing rather than an energy output feat. Other's might disagree, but it seemed more like Stardust just kinda waving his hand and the blackhole appearing rather than a chain reaction.

Originally posted by Starscream M
dood...that's hyperbole. also neither scan says it has the energy of a million sons.

one says 'heat'.

another says 'might'. Heat is energy. Just saying.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Another good example.

It shouldn't. I don't understand why anyone would be impressed by black holes at this point. Just cosmic cheese.
I'd like to remind you and Galan that it wasn't a cheesy little black hole like Stardust tore open, or the...tiny rift, really, that Superman had trouble escaping. This thing looked truly massive when Thanos and Skreet comment on it.

But anywho.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I know. And I agree to an extent, although I'd add that Norrin fights without using his exotic abilities just as often as Thor does. Blasts and fists. That's about it. Just like Thor.

Thor fights with fists more often than Norrin from what I've seen though.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Pretty sure its canon, and he absorbed souls, not power per se. There are two binary suns in Godwheel, so amping is a tactic. Not that I'm claiming he'd do it even without CIS. But it wasn't like B&T Thor wasn't 'drawing strength from his madness' and thus somewhat amped, either.

Nah, as I understood it, what we saw didn't actually happen. It was something that happened in Norrin's head or something akin to that. He absorbed the souls and converted them to the Power Cosmic as it was something he had more control over. Hence he was more powerful. At least that's how I remember it.

How large are the Suns? Norrin went mad trying to absorb the Sun. Besides, extra energy is pointless seeing how much power Mjolnir can absorb.

A statement made by an ignorant Bill who thought Thor was under the true Warrior Madness. Which he was not. It was a psychic malady. There was absolutely no outside power up or interference for Thor in Blood and Thunder. The Valkyrie was simply a psychic manifestation of Thor's problems with his multiple incarnations that led him deep into a dark hole of madness within himself.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Uni-Lord saga. Haha.

Lol.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I didn't know that. Do you happen to know the issue #? 'Cause that sounds cool. And if not, don't worry about it, I believe you.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_MjolnirBurnwithMillSuns.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
Heat is energy. Just saying. well...I'm still going with it being a hyperbolic

Mjolnir has nowhere near the power of a million suns...unless suns are as weak as lightbulbs

to have even the energy of one sun is damn impressive

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_MjolnirBurnwithMillSuns.jpg
Volume 2 when the Enchanter was messing with his hammer, right? I've got it. Just didn't recall that particular statement. Thanks.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I'd like to remind you and Galan that it wasn't a cheesy little black hole like Stardust tore open What was chessy about the BH Stardust made?

Originally posted by Galan007
What was chessy about the BH Stardust made?
It didn't look as big as Surfer's.

Also, like Goober said, it sort of seemed like a transmutation feat, more than a power output feat.

Originally posted by Starscream M
dood...that's hyperbole. also neither scan says it has the energy of a million sons.

one says 'heat'.

another says 'might'.

How did I know you were going to say that? And why was it hyperbole? I mean even in the second scan, apparently Surtur feared the power from the throw enough to deflect it with Twilight. The same Surtur who destroyed a Galaxy and all it's Star's with a smile while making Twilight.

Isn't heat energy technically? And it even says that the Enchanter reversed Mjolnir's power (That being the key word.) to the point it glowed with the heat of a million Suns.

The second one has Thor specifically say, "....burn with the might of a thousand Suns, energy enough...."

Originally posted by Enyalus
Volume 2 when the Enchanter was messing with his hammer, right? I've got it. Just didn't recall that particular statement. Thanks.

Yup. It was #15 as I recall. No problem. It's a recap of what happened in Thor Vol. 1 #143 I believe.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
How did I know you were going to say that? And why was it hyperbole? I mean even in the second scan, apparently Surtur feared the power from the throw enough to deflect it with Twilight. The same Surtur who destroyed a Galaxy and all it's Star's with a smile while making Twilight.

Isn't heat energy technically? And it even says that the Enchanter reversed Mjolnir's power (That being the key word.) to the point it glowed with the heat of a million Suns.

The second one has Thor specifically say, "....burn with the might of a thousand Suns, energy enough...." do you know how much energy is in a million suns? think about it...for a second.

hopefully, you realize how ridiculous it is to take those scans literally.

Originally posted by Starscream M
do you know how much energy is in a million suns? think about it...for a second.

hopefully, you realize how ridiculous it is to take those scans literally.

I really do not see the problem. Mjolnir has absorbed enough power to destroy a Galaxy. Contained and absorbed a blast that was going to nullify 1/5 of the Universe. What is so hard to believe about it's energy reserves being that deep? It's not as if it would have a problem containing that much energy.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I really do not see the problem. Mjolnir has absorbed enough power to destroy a Galaxy. Contained and absorbed a blast that was going to nullify 1/5 of the Universe. What is so hard to believe about it's energy reserves being that deep? It's not as if it would have a problem containing that much energy. I just find it a ridiculous hyperbole to say mjolnir has energy of 1 million suns. I think whoever wrote that line has no concept of the energy that resides within even one sun, let alone a million.

maybe I'm the only one thinking like this. meh.

Originally posted by Starscream M
I just find it a ridiculous hyperbole to say mjolnir has energy of 1 million suns. I think whoever wrote that line has no concept of the energy that resides within even one sun, let alone a million.

maybe I'm the only one thinking like this. meh.

Simonson was always into the cosmic/mythic type big events with Thor.

I mean the first page of the first issue of his Thor run showed us a Galaxy core along with countless Suns/Stars exploding as Surtur forged Twilight.

Originally posted by Enyalus
It didn't look as big as Surfer's. I thought it was purty big:
http://img641.imageshack.us/i/singularity1.jpg/
http://img412.imageshack.us/i/singularity2.jpg/

But at their event horizon, all black holes contain (relative) infinite gravity anyway. Surfer's hole = Stardust's hole.































Giggity.

Surfer's is clearly more endowed than Stardust's.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Surfer's is clearly more endowed than Stardust's. mmm

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/6857/ss1lj.th.jpg http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/4170/ss2eo.th.jpg


You sure?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Surfer's is clearly more endowed than Stardust's. just because his hole is wider and more stretched?

Originally posted by Starscream M
just because his hole is wider and more stretched?
Ohhh snap!

I can't believe Brucey was the one to take the best shot.

As goober said these comparisons between surfers blackhole and stardusts blackhole are faulty comparisons. Surfers blackhole was created as a aftereffect of his energy blast.. Thats why it is relevant in regards to power output. The creation of the blackhole tells us the level of energy being discharged. Stardust feat was more in the vein of matter manipulation and hence is not analogous to the surfers. Further whethr high herald levelers can survive a blackhole or not is also irrelevant since the blackhole isnt whats key here but rather the level of energy output suggested by its creation.

In regards to this fight.

1.Surfer
2. Flash
3. Cant decide on superman vs thor. Thor has probly got the most powerful attacks out of all the combatants here, but in this scenario speed might be his undoing.

Perhaps I am in the minority, but I still think that the capacity to absorb energy is more important in this match than overall power output.

^Im confident that surfer can put up a high level of resistance to a thor energy drain.

Pulling energy from Surfer isn't necessarily where I was going. I was talking more along the lines of Thor absorbing any attack(s) Surfer throws his way. If he wanted, Thor could even amplify those attacks and sling them right back at Surfer.

Originally posted by Galan007
Pulling energy from Surfer isn't necessarily where I was going. I was talking more along the lines of Thor absorbing any attack(s) Surfer throws his way. If he wanted, Thor could even amplify those attacks and sling them right back at Surfer. can thor absorb all types of energy attacks?

Originally posted by Starscream M
can thor absorb all types of energy attacks? All types? Who knows? What I do know is that Mjolnir has absorbed an array of different energies (inc. the power cosmic from Surfer himself.)

Originally posted by Galan007
Pulling energy from Surfer isn't necessarily where I was going. I was talking more along the lines of Thor absorbing any attack(s) Surfer throws his way. If he wanted, Thor could even amplify those attacks and sling them right back at Surfer.

True. However thats why i think encasing the hammer in his silvery glaze or some similarly nigh unbreakable substance would be the smartest strategy for surfer to use. Use his speed to get the jump on thor and then disable his hammer.

Originally posted by Naija boy
True. However thats why i think encasing the hammer in his silvery glaze or some similarly nigh unbreakable substance would be the smartest strategy for surfer to use. Use his speed to get the jump on thor and then disable his hammer.

Thor could always will Mjolnir to teleport back to him. He doesn't have to be holding it to will it to teleport.

Doubt Thor would so easily part with the hammer if it all though. It can't even be removed from his hand if he wills it not to be removed.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor could always will Mjolnir to teleport back to him. He doesn't have to be holding it to will it to teleport.

Doubt Thor would so easily part with the hammer if it all though. It can't even be removed from his hand if he wills it not to be removed. what if his hands were crushed?

Originally posted by Starscream M
what if his hands were crushed?

Who here has the strength to crush Thor's hands?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Nah, as I understood it, what we saw didn't actually happen. It was something that happened in Norrin's head or something akin to that. He absorbed the souls and converted them to the Power Cosmic as it was something he had more control over. Hence he was more powerful. At least that's how I remember it.
That arc is more like a What if - diff. Parallel Universe, kinda like Elseworld however the diff. is that in Marvel there exist a spacial rift that connects/binds all this multiple universes together. To make a long story short Unilord Sufer escaped into this rift and then is merged to his 616 version...
Originally posted by Galan007
All types? Who knows? What I do know is that Mjolnir has absorbed an array of different energies (inc. the power cosmic from Surfer himself.)
Very similar to Surfer, that incl. the Odin power itself..

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Who here has the strength to crush Thor's hands? superman would I would think

Originally posted by Starscream M
superman would I would think



Superman being able to crush Thor's hands? Lol.

Originally posted by Ambient
That arc is more like a What if - diff. Parallel Universe, kinda like Elseworld however the diff. is that in Marvel there exist a spacial rift that connects/binds all this multiple universes together. To make a long story short Unilord Sufer escaped into this rift and then is merged to his 616 version...

I thought that what happened was that the memories of the Surfer from that Universe were transferred to the 616 Norrin when he past the rift. Hence why he remembered what happened but it didn't actually happen. There bodies merged? Have to re-read it then.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


Superman being able to crush Thor's hands? Lol. for a guy who buys the mjolnir = energy of a million suns, I'm not sure you find it hard to believe superman could crush thor's hands if he desired to

Originally posted by Ambient
Very similar to Surfer, that incl. the Odin power itself.. Oh I understand full well that Surfer can absorb energy attacks and the like. However, you won't be convincing me that his absorption prowess is on Mjolnir's level.

His energy absorping powers aren't on Thor's level. His hit his limit in the past. The closest that's happened to Mjolnir is when Thor tried to absorb and contain the energy of the null reactior (I'm not sure whether that was it's name.) which was so powerful it destroy all of existence. Thor tried to contain it and was able for a few moments as I recall but could not hold the energy.

Originally posted by Starscream M
for a guy who buys the mjolnir = energy of a million suns, I'm not sure you find it hard to believe superman could crush thor's hands if he desired to

That's because it was stated on panel. Hence why I believe it's the case.

What hasn't been shown, at least to my knowledge is Superman being able to crush the hands of someone like Thor. Someone who his peer and equal in strength.

It's as if you actually to say the most asinine thing possible at times.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I thought that what happened was that the memories of the Surfer from that Universe were transferred to the 616 Norrin when he past the rift. Hence why he remembered what happened but it didn't actually happen. There bodies merged? Have to re-read it then.
His got no recollection of the Unilord arc, doubt there is any memory transfer..
Originally posted by Galan007
Oh I understand full well that Surfer can absorb energy attacks and the like. However, you won't be convincing me that his absorption prowess is on Mjolnir's level.
Pretty much similar in my opinion..

Even when he was depowered, the Dark Gods couldn't crush Thor's body. Nor could Mangog. Ridiculous to think Superman can.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

What hasn't been shown, at least to my knowledge is Superman being able to crush the hands of someone like Thor. Someone who his peer and equal in strength.
umm...superman can generate millions of tons with his grip

Originally posted by Starscream M
umm...superman can generate millions of tons with his grip

Ummm so what? Thor surviving in the core of the Sun unharmed, or being crushed by an energy field that had the weight of a score of planet shows that millions of tons of pressure would not hurt Thor. Much less crush his hands.

Originally posted by Ambient
His got no recollection of the Unilord arc, doubt there is any memory transfer..


Really? I gotta go re-read it then.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Even when he was depowered, the Dark Gods couldn't crush Thor's body. Nor could Mangog. Ridiculous to think Superman can.

Yea, freaking Jake Olsen, Thor's human form was tanking being tossed around by an amped Destroyer, and being crushed by Perrikus.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
His energy absorping powers aren't on Thor's level. His hit his limit in the past. The closest that's happened to Mjolnir is when Thor tried to absorb and contain the energy of the null reactior (I'm not sure whether that was it's name.) which was so powerful it destroy all of existence. Thor tried to contain it and was able for a few moments as I recall but could not hold the energy.
Early 90's, however there's been a lot of changed..

Surfer absorb/destroyed something similar, the null wave.. supposedly destroy anything/everything in existence..
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Really? I gotta go re-read it then.
good luck.. Try making some sense into that missed..lol

Originally posted by Ambient
Pretty much similar in my opinion.. I am quite curious what you're basing this on? I have never seen anything from Surfer that would lead me to believe his energy absorption abilities are Mjolnir-level.

Surfer should take this. CIS free fights aren't as much about who can do the most, but who can do the most with the greatest ease. Yeah Thor can do most of the same stuff Surfer can, but much of it he can't do as easily. For instance Thor's hammer gives him the ability to fly fast enough to stay in the fight, it gives him sufficient absorption capabilities to absorb energy attacks from Supes and Surfer, it gives him ranged attacks powerful enough to hurt the other combatants, and it gives him forcefields strong enough to withstand his opponents attacks... but Thor's going to be far more limited than Surfer in how many of those options he can exersise at one time. If he's using his hammer to keep up with one of his opponents in flight, he's not going to be able to use it to block/absorb attacks from other directions. If he's raising a forcefield, he's not firing an energy blast.

Surfer's board also gives him a major advantage in a fight like this since he can send it to attack/defend against one opponent while engaging a different opponent or have it lend a hand attacking his current opponent.

Here's what the power of that reactor did:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_ThorContainUniverDestroy3.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_ThorContainUniverDestroy4.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_ThorContainUniverDestroy5.jpg

Here Thor tries and albeit fails trying to contain the energy of the reactor.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_ThorContainUniverDestroy1.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_ThorContainUniverDestroy2.jpg

To Thor's credit though, it didn't look like the standard absorption.

Originally posted by Ambient
Early 90's, however there's been a lot of changed..

Surfer absorb/destroyed something similar, the null wave.. supposedly destroy anything in existence..

Scans or issue number? Never read this myself or maybe I just forgot.

I doubt Norrin could do this though. Even current Surfer was near death's door from the simple strain of directing the Big Crunch. I highly doubt he can absorb anything as powerful as being able to destroy anything in existence.

Fun fact: The gods Thor will be fighting in Matt Fraction's arc are powerful enough to stave off the Big Crunch. I hope Thor kicks ass.

Originally posted by Ambient
good luck.. Try making some sense into that missed..lol

Okay.

I hate Matt Fraction and his run on X-Men needs to be retconned out of existence.


...On a sidenote, I hate a lot of things today, apparently.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Surfer should take this. CIS free fights aren't as much about who can do the most, but who can do the most with the greatest ease. Yeah Thor can do most of the same stuff Surfer can, but much of it he can't do as easily. For instance Thor's hammer gives him the ability to fly fast enough to stay in the fight, it gives him sufficient absorption capabilities to absorb energy attacks from Supes and Surfer, it gives him ranged attacks powerful enough to hurt the other combatants, and it gives him forcefields strong enough to withstand his opponents attacks... but Thor's going to be far more limited than Surfer in how many of those options he can exersise at one time. If he's using his hammer to keep up with one of his opponents in flight, he's not going to be able to use it to block/absorb attacks from other directions. If he's raising a forcefield, he's not firing an energy blast.

Surfer's board also gives him a major advantage in a fight like this since he can send it to attack/defend against one opponent while engaging a different opponent or have it lend a hand attacking his current opponent.

Thor's flown while encircled in a vortex before. So yes he can defend himself and fly at the same time.

He can also absorb energy from all directions drawing them into the hammer head, so flying and absorbing attacks is no problem.

It depends on what kind of force field he creates. If he creates a vortex it will only take a moment but in that moment he won't be able to attack unless he uses some lightning.

This is of course not taking into account the fact that Thor can fly at speeds that would allow him to keep up with his opponents without Mjolnir, unleash energy attacks that would definitely hurt his opponents without Mjolnir, create force fields with a simple raise of his hand etc. He doesn't normally do this but C.I.S. is off.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor's flown while encircled in a vortex before. So yes he can defend himself and fly at the same time.

He can also absorb energy from all directions drawing them into the hammer head, so flying and absorbing attacks is no problem.

It depends on what kind of force field he creates. If he creates a vortex it will only take a moment but in that moment he won't be able to attack unless he uses some lightning.

This is of course not taking into account the fact that Thor can fly at speeds that would allow him to keep up with his opponents without Mjolnir, unleash energy attacks that would definitely hurt his opponents without Mjolnir, create force fields with a simple raise of his hand etc. He doesn't normally do this but C.I.S. is off.
What vortex are you talking about?

Since when has his hammer ever been able to absorb an energy blast that's coming from behind him? All his absoption feats I'm aware of have him blocking the blast.

Since when can he fly faster than light without his hammer or raise forcefields powerful enough to hinder the opposition without his hammer? And when has he ever used an energy blast without his hammer while he did anything else? I mean I know he can pull out blasts without his hammer, but given the speed of all his opponents multitasking feats would be nice to support his being able to pull out a hammerless blast while still using his hammer defensively.

he can whip up a vortex around himself, then fire blasts from within it. (like that electromagnetic uber blast he needed time to pull from the planet)

pretty sure he could do that since his will would be sustaining the vortex.

^Yes he could do that too. He can enter or exit his vortex's at will. Heck, his even created a vortex that was intangible and invisible to anyone else besides those he allowed but he entered and exited it just fine.

Originally posted by darthgoober
What vortex are you talking about?

Since when has his hammer ever been able to absorb an energy blast that's coming from behind him? All his absoption feats I'm aware of have him blocking the blast.

Since when can he fly faster than light without his hammer or raise forcefields powerful enough to hinder the opposition without his hammer? And when has he ever used an energy blast without his hammer while he did anything else? I mean I know he can pull out blasts without his hammer, but given the speed of all his opponents multitasking feats would be nice to support his being able to pull out a hammerless blast while still using his hammer defensively.

Thor can create generic force fields or a vortex to defend himself. Thor has in the past created a vortex to carry himself and other people.

Thor can draw energy from different directions into his hammer head.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/AbsorbThanosEnergy1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/AbsorbThanosEnergy2.jpg

He has flown from Asgard to Earth in moments. And used the wrong route apparently. That's his greatest speed feat with or without the hammer in terms of flight. Asgard is described as being farther than the farthest galaxy and beyond mortal comprehension of space and time yet at the same time being as close as your heart. That's because Asgard exists in a dimension parallel to Earth and you can use the rainbow bridge to get their instantly or take the long route.
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/FlywithoutMjolnirinSpace.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/FlyWithoutMjolnirInSpace1.jpg

He has casually created a force field to contain the blast of nuclear warheads.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/King%20Thor/ContainsNukes1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/King%20Thor/ContainsNukes2.jpg

He can emit energy without Mjolnir.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/King%20Thor/DefeatsDesak5.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/King%20Thor/DefeatsDesak6.jpg

His hurting Desak himself. And that guy literally drinks godly power. That's like hurting Superman with a blast of pure Solar radiation. The power must have been immense.

I can't recall Thor ever doing something akin to absorbing energy with his hammer while blasting a different opponent which is what I'm assuming your looking for. I don't see why you would ever argue though that he cannot as he has shown he can emit energy from his hands or even in an omnidirectional fashion from his body. C.I.S is not in play here so he'd use tactics his never normally used. This is something everyone's been doing for Norrin.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor can create generic force fields or a vortex to defend himself. Thor has in the past created a vortex to carry himself and other people.
Was it a defensive vortex he created to carry the people?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor can draw energy from different directions into his hammer head.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/AbsorbThanosEnergy1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/AbsorbThanosEnergy2.jpg
Yeah but he's still aware of the attack and "willing" the hammer to absorb the energy. I've never seen him just set the absorption to "on" while he goes on about his buisness...

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He has flown from Asgard to Earth in moments. And used the wrong route apparently. That's his greatest speed feat with or without the hammer in terms of flight. Asgard is described as being farther than the farthest galaxy and beyond mortal comprehension of space and time yet at the same time being as close as your heart. That's because Asgard exists in a dimension parallel to Earth and you can use the rainbow bridge to get their instantly or take the long route.
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/FlywithoutMjolnirinSpace.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/FlyWithoutMjolnirInSpace1.jpg.
Seems a bit odd... what book is that from?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He has casually created a force field to contain the blast of nuclear warheads.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/King%20Thor/ContainsNukes1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/King%20Thor/ContainsNukes2.jpg
I wouldn't say casually, I mean he does specifically say that he can't hold it forever. He also attributes the feat to the Odin Force...

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He can emit energy without Mjolnir.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/King%20Thor/DefeatsDesak5.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/King%20Thor/DefeatsDesak6.jpg

His hurting Desak himself. And that guy literally drinks godly power. That's like hurting Superman with a blast of pure Solar radiation. The power must have been immense.
Yeah, I already said that I know he can blast without his hammer, though that was another instance where he attributed it to the Odin Power.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I can't recall Thor ever doing something akin to absorbing energy with his hammer while blasting a different opponent which is what I'm assuming your looking for. I don't see why you would ever argue though that he cannot as he has shown he can emit energy from his hands or even in an omnidirectional fashion from his body. C.I.S is not in play here so he'd use tactics his never normally used. This is something everyone's been doing for Norrin.
Because as you guys have mentioned a couple of times now, Thor "wills" things to happen and his will sustains the effects, but it's not as if his "will" is infinite. A human character with the proper training could run as fast a race horse, break a cinder block with one hand, and throw a 100 mile an hour fastball. But that doesn't automatically mean that he could break a cinderblock with one hand and throw a 100 mile an hour fastball with the other WHILE he's running as fast as a race horse. We'd need to see him actually doing all of them at once before we could credit him with that kind of multitasking ability.

Sufer on the other hand, has feats where he's absorbing energy from a distant sun while blasting with one hand and sustaining a protective field on in another dimension/universe/astral plane(hard to tell which it was) and also sustaining a forcefield while navigating his board for a friend while he's engaged in combat with someone. I'm not saying that he can use every ability he's got continuosly or anything, but we know for a fact that he can do quite a bit at once.

cis-less pis-less surfer is above herald imo
so i go with surfer

Originally posted by Galan007
I am quite curious what you're basing this on? I have never seen anything from Surfer that would lead me to believe his energy absorption abilities are Mjolnir-level.
A plenty; nearly draining Molecule Man of all his energies, absorbing energies from a blackhole, the crunch feat, absorbing energies that could destroy half a universe, a lot more...
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Scans or issue number? Never read this myself or maybe I just forgot.
SS V3 # 145 and my bad it wasnt him that destroyed the waved but he did stopped the psychic energy feedback that would have destroyed sub-atomica microverse and earth by repelling the feedback with his pc.. not energy absorb. feat dough..

Originally posted by darthgoober
Was it a defensive vortex he created to carry the people?

His done it many times. Here is one instance:
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/FlyWithoutMjolnir3.jpg

It obviously has protective properties. Thor is the only there who can survive in space or travel at such speeds unhindered.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah but he's still aware of the attack and "willing" the hammer to absorb the energy. I've never seen him just set the absorption to "on" while he goes on about his buisness...



Why would he simply will his hammer to continuously absorb energy? Of course his aware of the attack. If his in a fight, he'd be ready to absorb energy if he needed to. If awareness is the problem in a fight like this he can use his senses to keep him aware of attacks from multiple sources. Or simply protect himself with a force field.

The fact that his tossed Mjolnir at energy and had Mjolnir absorb said energy shows that he can leave a command on Mjolnir to absorb energy but I've never seen him do it continuously and expecting him to do so in a normal environment is rather unreasonable.

In a fight like this he can simple will Mjolnir to continuously absorb energy. That should be no problem. It would have no strain on him.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Seems a bit odd... what book is that from?

Thor Vol. 1 162.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I wouldn't say casually, I mean he does specifically say that he can't hold it forever. He also attributes the feat to the Odin Force...

Yeah, I already said that I know he can blast without his hammer, though that was another instance where he attributed it to the Odin Power.

He did it casually. He just said he can't hold it forever which is true. He can't just stay there floating. He either has to absorb the energy or disperse it. He choose to disperse it.

In those instances Thor consciously knew he had the Odin Force so he attributed a lot of his feats without Mjolnir to them. It was revealed however that subconsciously he was blocking the Odin Force with a massive barrier. He was only the King of Asgard in title as he was still the God of Thunder. This revelation happened in Thor Vol. 2 #57.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Because as you guys have mentioned a couple of times now, Thor "wills" things to happen and his will sustains the effects, but it's not as if his "will" is infinite. A human character with the proper training could run as fast a race horse, break a cinder block with one hand, and throw a 100 mile an hour fastball. But that doesn't automatically mean that he could break a cinderblock with one hand and throw a 100 mile an hour fastball with the other WHILE he's running as fast as a race horse. We'd need to see him actually doing all of them at once before we could credit him with that kind of multitasking ability.

When I walk down the street while eating, I'm willing myself to do those things. It seems as if your just trying to find reasons as to why Thor cannot do something that should be no problem to him in such a situation. Something as simply as blasting an opponent while absorbing energy or defending himself is something Thor should be capable of doing easily.

Willpower is something Thor that Thor does not lack at all. He has plenty of willpower to spare. His willpower is truly the most godly think about him in my personal opinion. It's why when his in a human body he can keep toiling in slavery for hours while Gods around him die over the stress and by all rights his human body should have died long ago. It's why Thor can will himself to overpower a being who has all of Thor's own strength added to his own Class 75 strength. It's why Thor can stalemate or hurt beings that should technically be above him.

Heck, at times I really do think Thor's willpower is infinite despite the notion being silly. I mean, he has willed himself to literally resist his weight multiplied infinitely.

Lack of willpower is NOT a problem for Thor.

And it's his want and need that affects Mjolnir more than his will in my opinion. He want's Mjolnir to absorb energy and it does. He doesn't have to exert any force of will over it. It obeys his commands without question except in certain circumstances when other forces were in play.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Sufer on the other hand, has feats where he's absorbing energy from a distant sun while blasting with one hand and sustaining a protective field on in another dimension/universe/astral plane(hard to tell which it was) and also sustaining a forcefield while navigating his board for a friend while he's engaged in combat with someone. I'm not saying that he can use every ability he's got continuosly or anything, but we know for a fact that he can do quite a bit at once.

I never argued Norrin can't do what you mention.

Originally posted by Ambient
A plenty; nearly draining Molecule Man of all his energies, absorbing energies from a blackhole, the crunch feat, absorbing energies that could destroy half a universe, a lot more... Heh, there were extenuating circumstances behind a few of those feats. So the fact that you still chose to acknowledge them in lieu of that leads me to believe Surfer's absorption feats aren't as plentiful or as uber as you're claiming.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
His done it many times. Here is one instance:
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/FlyWithoutMjolnir3.jpg

It obviously has protective properties. Thor is the only there who can survive in space or travel at such speeds unhindered.





Why would he simply will his hammer to continuously absorb energy? Of course his aware of the attack. If his in a fight, he'd be ready to absorb energy if he needed to. If awareness is the problem in a fight like this he can use his senses to keep him aware of attacks from multiple sources. Or simply protect himself with a force field.

The fact that his tossed Mjolnir at energy and had Mjolnir absorb said energy shows that he can leave a command on Mjolnir to absorb energy but I've never seen him do it continuously and expecting him to do so in a normal environment is rather unreasonable.

In a fight like this he can simple will Mjolnir to continuously absorb energy. That should be no problem. It would have no strain on him.



Thor Vol. 1 162.



He did it casually. He just said he can't hold it forever which is true. He can't just stay there floating. He either has to absorb the energy or disperse it. He choose to disperse it.

In those instances Thor consciously knew he had the Odin Force so he attributed a lot of his feats without Mjolnir to them. It was revealed however that subconsciously he was blocking the Odin Force with a massive barrier. He was only the King of Asgard in title as he was still the God of Thunder. This revelation happened in Thor Vol. 2 #57.



When I walk down the street while eating, I'm willing myself to do those things. It seems as if your just trying to find reasons as to why Thor cannot do something that should be no problem to him in such a situation. Something as simply as blasting an opponent while absorbing energy or defending himself is something Thor should be capable of doing easily.

Willpower is something Thor that Thor does not lack at all. He has plenty of willpower to spare. His willpower is truly the most godly think about him in my personal opinion. It's why when his in a human body he can keep toiling in slavery for hours while Gods around him die over the stress and by all rights his human body should have died long ago. It's why Thor can will himself to overpower a being who has all of Thor's own strength added to his own Class 75 strength. It's why Thor can stalemate or hurt beings that should technically be above him.

Heck, at times I really do think Thor's willpower is infinite despite the notion being silly. I mean, he has willed himself to literally resist his weight multiplied infinitely.

Lack of willpower is NOT a problem for Thor.

And it's his want and need that affects Mjolnir more than his will in my opinion. He want's Mjolnir to absorb energy and it does. He doesn't have to exert any force of will over it. It obeys his commands without question except in certain circumstances when other forces were in play.



I never argued Norrin can't do what you mention.

Kids are crying so I can't continue an extended debate with this level of involvement(have to step away every couple of minutes), but I'll respond to this one tomorrow...

Iight man. Take your time.

Originally posted by Galan007
Heh, there were extenuating circumstances behind a few of those feats. So the fact that you still chose to acknowledge them in lieu of that leads me to believe Surfer's absorption feats aren't as plentiful or as uber as you're claiming.

Context. It's important people. I could just as well say Thor contained the energies of a reactor with the power to nullify creation as it would sound a lot more impressive. However I said something akin to "Thor tried to contain and eventually failed." in my original post despite it sounding less impressive because it's important.

It just pisses me off when people throw around feats when the context or full story behind them would change someone's view of them in terms of impressiveness.

I challenge someone to post scans or issue numbers of feats that support Norrin being on the level of Mjolnir in terms of energy absorption as I have not seen any.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Iight man. Take your time.



Context. It's important people. I could just as well say Thor contained the energies of a reactor with the power to nullify creation as it would sound a lot more impressive. However I said something akin to "Thor tried to contain and eventually failed." in my original post despite it sounding less impressive because it's important.

It just pisses me off when people throw around feats when the context or full story behind them would change someone's view of them in terms of impressiveness.

I challenge someone to post scans or issue numbers of feats that support Norrin being on the level of Mjolnir in terms of energy absorption as I have not seen any. QFT.

I'm not saying Surfer doesn't have some good absorption feats under his belt, but if you're going to claim he's got absorbing prowess on Mjolnir's level, you'd better have some solid/unquestionable evidence to support that claim... And I for one, doubt such proof exists.

Originally posted by Galan007
QFT.

I'm not saying Surfer doesn't have some good absorption feats under his belt, but if you're going to claim he's got absorbing prowess on Mjolnir's level, you'd better have some solid/unquestionable evidence to support that claim... And I for one, doubt such proof exists.

Agreed. If there was evidence to support Norrin being on the level of Mjolnir in terms of energy absorption I would have no doubt read the evidence in question, seen the scans or at the very least heard of it by this point. I'll concede if there is such evidence but since neither of the things I've listed has happened I'm skeptical.

Originally posted by Galan007
QFT.

I'm not saying Surfer doesn't have some good absorption feats under his belt, but if you're going to claim he's got absorbing prowess on Mjolnir's level, you'd better have some solid/unquestionable evidence to support that claim... And I for one, doubt such proof exists.
Surfer absorbed the entirety of the Oan Power Battery. biscuits

and dummied orion's ass

Originally posted by Enyalus
Surfer absorbed the entirety of the Oan Power Battery. biscuits Touche. vin

Originally posted by Galan007
Heh, there were extenuating circumstances behind a few of those feats. So the fact that you still chose to acknowledge them in lieu of that leads me to believe Surfer's absorption feats aren't as plentiful or as uber as you're claiming.
Like what? Tell me what were the extenuating circumstance behind some of the feats i mentioned? I think those i mentioned are quite fair.. I could have said a few more however i don't feel the need to mention anything that i think are far lesser than what i've seen of Thor. + Too lazy to type all the details for all those feats..

Say how about i ask you similar question of Thor.. What makes his absorbing feat uber than Surfer?

Post scans or an issue number of what is in your opinion Silver Surfer's most impressive absorbing feat. I will then post what I think is Thor's.

I have to go right now, but I'm interested in seeing the result. I really have not seen feats from Silver Surfer to put him on par with Mjolnir in this category.

Agh! Kay maybe later..

How about the unilord saga.. lol Most empressive one his done..

Originally posted by Ambient
Like what? Tell me what were the extenuating circumstance behind some of the feats i mentioned? Well for starters, Molecule Man a.) allowed Surfer to absorb his powers, and b.) was drastically weakened from his battle with Beyonder -- here's a statement from Owen just prior to lending Surfer his power:
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7818/mm1e.jpg

Yeah, weak as hell.


Absorbing a BH? Cool, but not overly impressive.


As for the Crunch incident: channeling it's energies for a few seconds literally killed Surfer. Had Galactus not intervened he would have stayed that way.

I think there was one more thing you mentioned, but I can't remember it off hand... It was probably sketchy too, though.

Didn't take as long as i expected..

here's one..

Feeding MM more energy then absorbing all and some of it back..
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/5923/ssww6.jpg
http://img212.imageshack.us/i/ssfj0.jpg/
http://img181.imageshack.us/i/ss1xt9.jpg/

Here's from the Unilord - saga.

Absorbs the Unilord's blast and return it a million X over..
http://img68.imageshack.us/i/unilord4fk0.jpg/

Him absorbing the Unilord's energies..
http://img75.imageshack.us/i/unilord5bx8.jpg/
http://img75.imageshack.us/i/unilord6oq6.jpg/
http://s436.photobucket.com/albums/qq88/KherubimBacklash/?action=view&current=Upgrade2.jpg
http://s436.photobucket.com/albums/qq88/KherubimBacklash/?action=view&current=Upgrade3.jpg

Draws energies from a blackhole..
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/2585/mcp5030ampinghh6.jpg

Absorbs energies being fired..
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/4230/silversurferv3103p18sa8.jpg
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/6012/silversurferv3103p17qd1.jpg
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9425/silversurferv3103p19ox6.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
Well for starters, Molecule Man a.) allowed Surfer to absorb his powers, and b.) was drastically weakened from his battle with Beyonder -- here's a statement from Owen just prior to lending Surfer his power:
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7818/mm1e.jpg

Yeah, weak as hell.
I thought we were just talkin about absorbing capacity..

I mentioned this said so feat because even at his weakest he was still capable, considering his powers was the only thing holding the Planet together.. Was it not Surfer that lend Owen Energies and according to Owen Surfer could have absorbed all of his remaining power, very impressive i might add..
Originally posted by Galan007
I think there was one more thing you mentioned, but I can't remember it off hand... It was probably sketchy too, though.
Yeah, thats just you man ..

Originally posted by Starscream M
can't surfer create blackholes?

blackholes are far more destructive and devastating in power than a godblast.

Galactus and his heralds have effortlessly walk through black holes. however Thor's Godblast was able to hurt Galactus

Originally posted by Starscream M
hopefully, you realize how ridiculous it is to take those scans literally. You aren't very familiar with him, are you?

CIS-free Surfer takes this... it's just so easy to forget just how monumentally powerful he is... he's got the speed, he's got the overall power, he's got the versatility, he's got the cosmic awareness (itself the single most decisive factor in any forums battle, imo) and he's got the imagination (the most skilled herald bar none).

Originally posted by 753
Is he? As I understand it, only the Olympians are truly immortal, not the Asgardians. But...Thor's close enough. Besides, "beyond mortal AND immortal ken" didn't sound as cliche or shlocky as the plain ol' "beyond mortal ken."