Darth Nihilus vs. Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin Skywalker

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AncientSithLord
Darth Nihilus... because he could drain the life from anyone. His hunger and power was so great he could even destroy the populations of entire worlds. There is no defense against the mega drain, unless one is a wound in the Force like the Exile. Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin Skywalker aren't. There's no contest, Darth Nihilus wins.

Samurai100
no way sidious could solo easy

AncientSithLord
Please explain how he could accomplish this. Sidious walks towards Nihilus, Nihilus walks towards Sidious, Nihilus extends a hand, and drains the life from Sidious. Consumes his soul. Instant death.

Dr McBeefington
Except there are techniques for withdrawing from the force, and hiding one's force presence.

truejedi
Originally posted by AncientSithLord
Please explain how he could accomplish this. Sidious walks towards Nihilus, Nihilus walks towards Sidious, Nihilus extends a hand, and drains the life from Sidious. Consumes his soul. Instant death.

Please explain the instaneous nature of the drain? I am shocked that you have the proof that it is an instaneous, duel styled force attack! never in all my years have i found any proof of this! Please inform us wherein we have erred! From whence came this proof?!?!

Red Nemesis
ha sarcasm

AncientSithLord
Have you played KOTOR 2? The Jedi Exile walks onto the bridge of the Ravager and approaches Nihilus. Nihilus stuns her and her companions, the Exile dares Nihilus to feed on her, and Nihilus extends his hand and drains. Instantly. But the Exile is a wound in the Force, so Nihilus collapses. If the Exile wasn't, however, then she'd be dead. Then the weakened Nihilus draws his lightsaber and begins battle.

That's aside from a scene, ultimately cut due to time constraints, where Darth Sion confronts Nihilus. He ignites his lightsaber, and Nihilus spins around and uses some form of Force Drain combined with Force lightning, Force pull and Force crush on him. Again, instantly. And in that circumstance Nihilus was not trying to kill Sion; Sion gets up again and Nihilus simply trips him over, and sends Sion on his way.

Also Visas Marr says "My lord spoke, and every living thing on Katarr died."

The whole hiding in the Force thing doesn't work either; Nihilus simply wiped out Katarr with the mega drain, and even chose to spare one life. Other life is said to be beneath him and almost irrelevant, "dust motes caught in a storm" as Tobin put it.

Red Nemesis
You seem articulate and at least marginally competent. I will provide you with an earnest response.


Yes. The majority of us have. It is almost certainly not a good idea to imagine that you know more than the people here, especially during the introductory phase of your posts.

That said, Welcome! Prepare to lose hours and hours of your life. evil face


This is your interpretation of the events. It's nice, but your version of events is not considered canon. There are things that we do not know about the events. The most important one is how much preparation is needed for the Drain to kick in. Can N. spam it as easily as Kun can amulet blasts, or Sidious can lightning, or does it take a greater amount of concentration, along the lines of Zannah's dark tentacles of doom power? How do you know?


Cut content isn't considered canon, and so cannot be used to support a position. While it can be used to indicate the authors' intentions, it does not and can not fully replace actual events.


Visas was in awe of N. There is the possibility that she was using poetic license. Also, she isn't exactly in a position to know what level of preparation the act took, as she was on the surface while he was in space. There is no way to know if the planet-buster drain required prep-time (making it a ritual and largely useless in combat) or even if that drain was the same one attempted against the Exile.


This is a bit of a non-sequitur; your comment about Katarr doesn't have much to do with the efficacy of hiding oneself from the Force. Do you have reason to believe that there was anyone practicing the technique while they were being targeted by the planet drain? Do you have any evidence that the hiding technique was even known by the Jedi at that time? It is possible (some say likely) that they did not know of it, making Kreia's "no defense" line moot.

While it is certainly tempting to assume that we know about the mechanics of N.'s giga-drain, it can only serve to make an ass out of you and me.

truejedi
Originally posted by AncientSithLord
Have you played KOTOR 2?



Indeed I have.


So obviously THAT wasn't the drain, or else they would be dead, according to your definition.



Quotation please? Nihilus could have been doing any number of force attacks by merely extending his hand in such a manner, am i not right? Perhaps it was a failed choke, or failed lightning. Difficult to say from a mere cut-scene.



Obviously since it didn't work, you have no idea if it was going to be instant or not.



Proof of that, please?



Which, i hope your realize, makes it non-canon.


What?!? Can you prove ANY of that? From a cut scene, you claim proof of a combination force attack, and then try to call it a drain as well?!? Obviously Nihilus was NOT using his drain in this instance, or he wouldn't have had the lightning, pull and crush... You are really reaching with that one.


Again, you can't prove it was the drain, you can't prove Nihilus didn't want to kill him, and you can't prove, if it WAS the drain, that it would have been instantly fatal (considering it wasn't fatal at all.




She wasn't there when he spoke. She was presumably told this by the same man holding her captive... Definitly not a reliable witness. In-universe quotes are rarely proof.



Once again, Tobin has never seen what he is talking about, he is presumably taking the word of Nihilus.



Your move.

big grin

truejedi
but as Red said, welcome, you seem one of the more competent new members we have had in aeons.

Red Nemesis
double whammy
erm

Slash_KMC
Yes, 'new' member.

Amazing Vrayo!!
Sure, Nihilus tried to drain the exile, and maybe it would work against someone who wasn't a wound in the force, but he only was able to do it to one person (instantaneouly that is) and it is only logical that it would take more time for him to force drain multiple victims. Therefore, someone would attack him while he was trying to drain someone else, or, if he tried to drain them all at once, they would kill him while he was focusing the power to use it against multiple people. Its a catch 22 situation. The furious four take the win.

Red Nemesis
no

N. still wins, he just doesn't do it by eating souls. That would be an evil action anyway. No, N. wins because he has some of the strongest and most impressive telekinesis found in the series.

He breaks Anakin's neck and then accelerates his body to relativistic speed, hitting the other three as it bounces around the room from the initial impact.

Shoes
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
no

N. still wins, he just doesn't do it by eating souls. That would be an evil action anyway. No, N. wins because he has some of the strongest and most impressive telekinesis found in the series.

When were we shown this?

Red Nemesis
During the loading screen which says that N. "dragged his ship out of the mass shadow generator" at Malachor. Also, Tobin may also have referenced it? In any event, the canonicity of the loading screen is not in question and the numbers (in terms of Force, force, work, power and energy) are all testament to his astronomical powahs.

truejedi
Originally posted by Red Nemesis


No, N. wins because he has some of the strongest and most impressive telekinesis found in the series.

He breaks Anakin's neck and then accelerates his body to relativistic speed, hitting the other three as it bounces around the room from the initial impact.

This is a bit of a stretch. he has some impressive telekinesis, no doubt, but is his TK greater than Sidious's? The Most Powerful Sith in History? Combined with Yoda's? Who stalemated him? Luke? Who arguably is more powerful than either one? Anakin is of course immaterial in this duel. If the 3 can't take N, anakin can't.

I like your theory, but his removal of ships from a gravity well doesn't make him untouchable. Dorsk 81 removed over EIGHTY star destroyers from a SOLAR SYSTEM in a single moment in Jedi Academy.

Size matters not. I don't see why any of the other 3 couldn't do the same thing in a crucial situation. (see Galen)

The thought being: If N is THAT powerful, sidious must be even more powerful. The other 2 have been shown to be in the same range as Sidious.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by truejedi

The thought being: If N is THAT powerful, sidious must be even more powerful.

Based on what, exactly? Throwing some pods at Yoda?


weak




big. whoop.

(Whats this about dork92?)

Shoes
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
During the loading screen which says that N. "dragged his ship out of the mass shadow generator" at Malachor. Also, Tobin may also have referenced it? In any event, the canonicity of the loading screen is not in question and the numbers (in terms of Force, force, work, power and energy) are all testament to his astronomical powahs.

This does not prove his TK is beyond that of Sidious. In fact, I would say it doesn't come close to what Sidious did with that Star Destroyer.

truejedi
Originally posted by Red Nemesis


Based on what, exactly? Throwing some pods at Yoda?


weak

Based on Sidious being the most powerful lord of the Sith. Obviously. I refuse to explain to you why he is. To a newbie, perhaps, to you, NO U!



It really kinda is. Luke has the best feat of TK in the mythos when he holds himself to the deck, and an out of universe quote is: "even the black hole that held the galaxy together could not have moved him."

If Sidious is more powerful (Greatest DLOTS)
And Luke is,
And Yoda is equivalent, or just below Sidious (based on Duel)
Then we have 3 beings more powerful than N.

It is a big whoop.



Dorsk 81 Red. C'mon now. This was written almost 20 years ago. He uses the force to remove Pellean's fleet of 80 star destroyers from the Jedi Academy. Thrusts them entirely out of the system. It kills him. But he does it. Size matters not.

Red Nemesis
Obviously, I don't kneed to explain to you that "Greatest DLOTS" doesn't mean "Better than joo in every possibible way imaginable. Surely I can count on your sense of subtleties and abstraction to account for the fact that while we have quotes calling Sidious the best there is, we haven't got feats to show that in every single facet of existence. We know he's the best, but by specializing in one technique even the greatest may be defeated.

(Incidental BLEACH quote there. Sorry, it won't happen again.)

You're going to have to prove that best also applies to TK, because nothing is specific on that particular issue.



cool. Source?


Size matters not a little bit more for Yoda than for the rest of . -Mace. (paraphrased)

Unless you'd like to defend the idea that size matters not for Johun as much as it matters not for Yoda, your gonna wanna drop this particular punctuation.

truejedi
Originally posted by Red Nemesis



cool. Source?



Jedi Academy Trilogy. Made Daala made as Hell too, incidently. pretty good story.

You need to prove that Nihilus could overpower the TK of the of the group. You have given no proof of that, and that is the basis of your entire scenario.

I just gave you Luke's TK quote. That puts him alone on a level above N. If that was the source you were asking for, sorry about the misundertanding: That source is from Dark Nest. (final book, i don't remember the name.)

Shoes
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
You're going to have to prove that best also applies to TK, because nothing is specific on that particular issue.


He made everyone in Coruscant forget that he took down a SSD and buried it below the crust.

Red Nemesis
This one I know about. That is why N. is using Anakin's body as a relativistic bomb (e=mv^2 as v->infinity e-> infinity^2) to overwhelm him.

Yoda is strong, but honestly? We haven't got any DBZ stuff to prove his strength in this context so we're stuck with vague notions of midichlorians and pwnage. Sidious remains stuck without feats.

(Your Luke quote probably sank me. You must realize though that the other three on the team are largely periphery? As in, N. could take those three I bet.)

edit:
Originally posted by Shoes
He made everyone in Coruscant forget that he took down a SSD and buried it below the crust.
wuT?

truejedi
Originally posted by Shoes
He made everyone in Coruscant forget that he took down a SSD and buried it below the crust.

i forgot about this, but it sounds familiar. recap por favor? i'm too lazy to wiki it. (Unless you give me a link)

Shoes
EGC tells us that he (Palpatine), used his mind powers to obliterate all memory of the incident (the burying of the SSD).

truejedi
lol, tell me about the incident. Thats what interests me. I know Sidious has crazy mind-clouding powers.

Red Nemesis
More information first about the burying. Did he do it? Was it done with the Force?

etc.

Nephthys
Gideon used to talk about that feat alot, but he never gave it the elaboration it deserves, so I figure it must be a ritual or have some circumstance attached to it.

truejedi
Originally posted by Nephthys
Gideon used to talk about that feat alot, but he neer gae it the elaboration it deserves, so I figure it must be a ritual or have some circumstance attached to it.

just curious where it came from.

Dr McBeefington
Regarding the Tobin quote. Did he see Nihilus pick up his fleet from malachor V using TK? Furthermore, what exactly makes him credible in dictating the intricacies of the force?

Nephthys
I think anyone can see something levitate out of orbit and put two and two together.

truejedi
Originally posted by Nephthys
I think anyone can see something levitate out of orbit and put two and two together.

Tobin's quotes, however, aren't really reliable, considering he lies to you more than once in the game.

The kicker is though, the loading screen that say N did pull the fleet out.

Gideon
Nephthys
Gideon used to talk about that feat alot, but he never gave it the elaboration it deserves, so I figure it must be a ritual or have some circumstance attached to it.

You would probably like to believe that. The exact quote comes from the New Essential Guide to Characters, under Ysanne Isard's profile. It states that, "...with the help of the Emperor's mind-fogging powers, Imperial engineers buried beneath Coruscant."

truejedi
so not really a feat then.

Gideon
truejedi
so not really a feat then.

...In what regard?

truejedi
a TK feat. And nothing new really in mind-clouding powers, most jedi can do things like that. Pointless to this thread, in other words.

Gideon
truejedi
And nothing new really in mind-clouding powers, most jedi can do things like that. Pointless to this thread, in other words.

?



no expression

Two key phrases: Super Star Destroyer. Coruscant.

As in his mind-fogging powers enabled engineers to bury a 19 kilometer ship beneath a planet with trillions of people on it. He must have pooled the veritable wool over, what? Thousands? Millions? With telepathy.

truejedi
right, but has nothing to do with TK, nor anything to do with this thread.

Gideon
truejedi
right, but has nothing to do with TK, nor anything to do with this thread.

?



no expression

Nephthys
Bees. My God. no expression


Edit: Also, that feat is obviously some godlike mind****ing, he could probably overwhelm Nihilus with just that.

truejedi
Originally posted by Gideon
?


mind-fogging powers is hardly going to matter in a fight between these 4 and N, so frankly, its pointless to discuss it further.

Gideon
no expression

Well somebody truejedi doesn't like to be corrected tonight.

truejedi
I haven't been corrected. I asked for information, i appreciate you giving it, and I decided it was irrelevant to the thread.

Gideon
truejedi
I haven't been corrected.





no expression

I decided you were corrected.

truejedi
all you are doing is derailing yet another kotor2 thread, so i guess it hardly matters.

Gideon
truejedi
all you are doing is derailing yet another kotor2 thread, so i guess it hardly matters.

no expression

Well somebody truejedi is very sensitive tonight.

I'm not sure if you're just grouchy because of your argument with Ms. Marvel, but you did make a mistake (assuming most Jedi could perform that feat) and you were corrected.

In other words: I WIN U LOSE LOL

truejedi
Originally posted by Gideon
no expression

Well somebody truejedi is very sensitive tonight.

I'm not sure if you're just grouchy because of your argument with Ms. Marvel, but you did make a mistake (assuming most Jedi could perform that feat) and you were corrected.

In other words: I WIN U LOSE LOL

meh. i don't even care enough to be grouchy. about either thread. cool

so, lol, congrats on your victory. Happy Dance

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by AncientSithLord
Darth Nihilus... because he could drain the life from anyone. His hunger and power was so great he could even destroy the populations of entire worlds. There is no defense against the mega drain, unless one is a wound in the Force like the Exile. Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin Skywalker aren't. There's no contest, Darth Nihilus wins. Are you making a Vs. thread or a statement?

AncientSithLord
First of all, Nihilus does also show incredible power apart from the mega drain, which I'll get into later. He tears his *entire fleet* from Malachor. It is not said in a way that suggests he very slowly pulled each ship either, it is simply said, he pulled his entire fleet, and not only that, but the Ravager and likely others as well should have had no atmosphere and been torn apart long ago. Instead, Nihilus used his power to keep it all together, like a ghost ship. Nihilus seems to pretty much ignore all laws of physics, and almost carelessly uses the Force on a massive scale not seen elsewhere. He decides he wants a fleet. He doesn't hire several thousand workers to build one for millions of credits. He uses the Force to pull an entire fleet of smashed ships from the grip of the Mass Shadow Generator. Oops, they're smashed to bits, are open to space... basically they're not ships at all, or at least not ships anyone could use. No problem, Nihilus' power keeps them all together, with atmosphere. He needs a crew. He drains most of the life from some people until they're his utter slaves. Like zombies. He can stun three people, two of which are powerful Force-sensitives, in an instant. All at once. And then of course the mega drain, which he uses to consume all life on an entire planet. Including hundreds of Jedi, even a very powerful one like Vandar Tokare. The same could be done to Coruscant in the prequel era. Nihilus arrives, drains the entire planet... that's the Senate and most of the Jedi in the galaxy gone at the same time.

Now, as for the drain being instant... Yes, the power he uses on the Exile is drain, and frankly I can't believe you'd try to deny that. The Exile says "If you would feed on Jedi, then feed on me." Nihilus extends his hand, and the red drain beam extends from it. It hits the Exile, and Nihilus collapses. The Exile points out Nihilus has weakened himself due to him trying to feed on a wound in the Force, and the hunger is consuming him now. Look it up on Wookieepedia if you wish.

Also, there's Nihilus' confrontation with Kreia. Nihilus and Sion walk in. Kreia and Sion ignite their lightsabers, and Nihilus Force pushes her into a wall. Now, Kreia is a powerful Force-user. The fact that Kreia could not block the Force push is a sign of, as was pointed out, Nihilus' awesome telekinetic power. Not only that, but I'd say the drain on Kreia must have been pretty instant, since within seconds of hitting the wall, Kreia cannot use the Force to summon her lightsaber.

And of course there's Kreia herself and her confrontation with the Jedi Masters in the Dantooine Enclave. Kreia knows how to use Force Drain too, but not on the same level as Nihilus. She walks in, says a few words, and then drains three powerful Jedi Masters. All at once. Instantly. The drain is only "in operation" for a few seconds at most, showing that it does not take long either, and works on multiple people, even powerful Force-sensitives, at once. And this is Kreia, who is nowhere near Nihilus when it comes to draining. Nihilus can drain entire planets.

So, we know the drain is instant, and can work on multiple powerful Force-sensitives... If Kreia can do it on three Jedi then there's no problem Nihilus, far more accomplished in draining than Kreia, can *easily* do it on one Sith and three Jedi. That's the point. Force Drain is a technique against which there is NO defense. It is a way of feeding on the Force, on life... Nihilus took the drain to its extreme. He was a wraith, no body, just a dark spirit with robes, a skull mask and a lightsaber. His hunger and his power was almost incomprehensible. His mere presence killed... "In his wake, life dies, sacrificing to his hunger." His voice brought pain and death. He could turn others into utter slaves by draining most of their essence, leaving almost empty shells. Kreia drained three Jedi Masters. Nihilus drained Kreia. Nihilus drained entire planets. Nihilus could have drained the Exile, if she weren't a wound in the Force like him. Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin aren't wounds in the Force. And if anything their great power in the Force just make them easier targets for Nihilus, since the drain feeds on the Force. Nihilus did not see in terms of individuals, but entire planets. Only several billion people to drain with a sidedish of several hundred Jedi are enough for him to notice, for him to even bother focusing on. Four Force-sensitives? Pah, Nihilus would drain them with barely any notice. They would be insignificant to him. Pretty much irrelevant. There's no contest. Nihilus wins.

Oh, and thanks for the welcome. stick out tongue

AncientSithLord
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Are you making a Vs. thread or a statement?

Both. stick out tongue

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by AncientSithLord
First of all, Nihilus does also show incredible power apart from the mega drain, which I'll get into later. He tears his *entire fleet* from Malachor. It is not said in a way that suggests he very slowly pulled each ship either, it is simply said, he pulled his entire fleet, and not only that, but the Ravager and likely others as well should have had no atmosphere and been torn apart long ago. Instead, Nihilus used his power to keep it all together, like a ghost ship. Nihilus seems to pretty much ignore all laws of physics, and almost carelessly uses the Force on a massive scale not seen elsewhere. He decides he wants a fleet. He doesn't hire several thousand workers to build one for millions of credits. He uses the Force to pull an entire fleet of smashed ships from the grip of the Mass Shadow Generator. Oops, they're smashed to bits, are open to space... basically they're not ships at all, or at least not ships anyone could use. No problem, Nihilus' power keeps them all together, with atmosphere. He needs a crew. He drains most of the life from some people until they're his utter slaves. Like zombies. He can stun three people, two of which are powerful Force-sensitives, in an instant. All at once. And then of course the mega drain, which he uses to consume all life on an entire planet. Including hundreds of Jedi, even a very powerful one like Vandar Tokare. The same could be done to Coruscant in the prequel era. Nihilus arrives, drains the entire planet... that's the Senate and most of the Jedi in the galaxy gone at the same time.

Now, as for the drain being instant... Yes, the power he uses on the Exile is drain, and frankly I can't believe you'd try to deny that. The Exile says "If you would feed on Jedi, then feed on me." Nihilus extends his hand, and the red drain beam extends from it. It hits the Exile, and Nihilus collapses. The Exile points out Nihilus has weakened himself due to him trying to feed on a wound in the Force, and the hunger is consuming him now. Look it up on Wookieepedia if you wish.

Also, there's Nihilus' confrontation with Kreia. Nihilus and Sion walk in. Kreia and Sion ignite their lightsabers, and Nihilus Force pushes her into a wall. Now, Kreia is a powerful Force-user. The fact that Kreia could not block the Force push is a sign of, as was pointed out, Nihilus' awesome telekinetic power. Not only that, but I'd say the drain on Kreia must have been pretty instant, since within seconds of hitting the wall, Kreia cannot use the Force to summon her lightsaber.

And of course there's Kreia herself and her confrontation with the Jedi Masters in the Dantooine Enclave. Kreia knows how to use Force Drain too, but not on the same level as Nihilus. She walks in, says a few words, and then drains three powerful Jedi Masters. All at once. Instantly. The drain is only "in operation" for a few seconds at most, showing that it does not take long either, and works on multiple people, even powerful Force-sensitives, at once. And this is Kreia, who is nowhere near Nihilus when it comes to draining. Nihilus can drain entire planets.

So, we know the drain is instant, and can work on multiple powerful Force-sensitives... If Kreia can do it on three Jedi then there's no problem Nihilus, far more accomplished in draining than Kreia, can *easily* do it on one Sith and three Jedi. That's the point. Force Drain is a technique against which there is NO defense. It is a way of feeding on the Force, on life... Nihilus took the drain to its extreme. He was a wraith, no body, just a dark spirit with robes, a skull mask and a lightsaber. His hunger and his power was almost incomprehensible. His mere presence killed... "In his wake, life dies, sacrificing to his hunger." His voice brought pain and death. He could turn others into utter slaves by draining most of their essence, leaving almost empty shells. Kreia drained three Jedi Masters. Nihilus drained Kreia. Nihilus drained entire planets. Nihilus could have drained the Exile, if she weren't a wound in the Force like him. Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin aren't wounds in the Force. And if anything their great power in the Force just make them easier targets for Nihilus, since the drain feeds on the Force. Nihilus did not see in terms of individuals, but entire planets. Only several billion people to drain with a sidedish of several hundred Jedi are enough for him to notice, for him to even bother focusing on. Four Force-sensitives? Pah, Nihilus would drain them with barely any notice. They would be insignificant to him. Pretty much irrelevant. There's no contest. Nihilus wins.

Oh, and thanks for the welcome. stick out tongue Wow that was long.

A.) Star Wars+Physics=Paradox.

B.) With few exceptions, KotOR characters=Unknowns. Nihilis' TK is one such exception and lends him the most weight in a match. But please don't use Kreia as an example to bounce off--she's a microbe compared to the PT-NJO era greats.

C.) I don't know 100% but the likes of Palpatine and Luke can "withdraw" themselves from the Force. Nihilus is gonna have a hard time doing anything about that.

D.) There's never been any conclusive (non-cryptic) evidence that says Nihilus' Doomsday Drain is instantaneous. His Drain he used on individuals---the three Unknown masters and the Wound Exile---was immediate, yes, but the Planet Killer, no.

AncientSithLord
The planet killing drain may not be, although I see no reason for it not to be. But it doesn't matter; we're dealing with a mere four Force-sensitives. In that case, the drain is instant. And we do know the planet killing drain is fast enough so that the Jedi can't evacuate; that says it can't have taken much longer than a few minutes. And again, the way Visas says it, "When my lord spoke, every living thing on Katarr died," certainly implies that it didn't take hours of preparation in a ritual which slowly wiped out Katarr. In fact, the whole idea for a complex Sith ritual goes against everything said about Force drain, and Nihilus' hunger. It's about a primal hunger which wipes out life, regardless of whether they are Force-sensitive or not, Jedi or Sith.

As for the withdrawing from the Force... that is a technique practically every single Jedi and Sith in the galaxy knows in some form or another, in the KOTOR era at least. There were hundreds of Jedi on Katarr; you think they were openly broadcasting their signature in the Force when the whole point of the Jedi conclave was because many other Jedi had already been mysteriously wiped out? Force Drain is a technique against which there is NO defense. That has been made crystal clear. So, no, hiding in the Force makes no difference, just as it does not make a difference if Force lightning is flying at you, or you're stuck on a planet targeted by the Death Star, or at the blast site of a thought bomb. The only thing that can stop the drain is not so much a Force defense method but simply the fact you're a wound in the Force that CANNOT be fed upon.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by AncientSithLord
The planet killing drain may not be, although I see no reason for it not to be. But it doesn't matter; we're dealing with a mere four Force-sensitives. In that case, the drain is instant. And we do know the planet killing drain is fast enough so that the Jedi can't evacuate; that says it can't have taken much longer than a few minutes. And again, the way Visas says it, "When my lord spoke, every living thing on Katarr died," certainly implies that it didn't take hours of preparation in a ritual which slowly wiped out Katarr. In fact, the whole idea for a complex Sith ritual goes against everything said about Force drain, and Nihilus' hunger. It's about a primal hunger which wipes out life, regardless of whether they are Force-sensitive or not, Jedi or Sith. Please stop with the poeticism.

Everything Visas says is cryptic--it's the theme of that game. We have no idea if Nihilus spent days, hours, minutes, seconds etc. consolidating power, focusing his energies--there's nothing conclusive.

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
As for the withdrawing from the Force... that is a technique practically every single Jedi and Sith in the galaxy knows in some form or another, in the KOTOR era at least. There were hundreds of Jedi on Katarr; you think they were openly broadcasting their signature in the Force when the whole point of the Jedi conclave was because many other Jedi had already been mysteriously wiped out? Force Drain is a technique against which there is NO defense. That has been made crystal clear. So, no, hiding in the Force makes no difference, just as it does not make a difference if Force lightning is flying at you, or you're stuck on a planet targeted by the Death Star, or at the blast site of a thought bomb. The only thing that can stop the drain is not so much a Force defense method but simply the fact you're a wound in the Force that CANNOT be fed upon. Did you not play that game? The Conclave on Katarr was broadcasting their presence, hence Nihilus' presence.

I hope you don't view Drain, or Lightning, or Force Choke the same way you see them in the video-games. Drain especially has a myriad of effects and uses. Kun's version kept him harnessed to Yavin's temples. Malak's Drain replenished his energy. Palpatine Drained the lifeforce of the inhabitants of Byss over a time frame of years. Nihilus' Drain was a "feeding" technique--feeding on the Force itself. His technique was mentioned by Kreia to be one as old as the Sith themselves. One such as Palpatine, who as Gideon preached, had the entire galaxy at his disposal, may very well have come across this particular device. And they're not "hiding" within the Force, he... separates himself from it. An artificial Wound of his own crafting, if you will.


Please get over your obsession with Nihilus. He's a cool character in premise but otherwise very dull.

AncientSithLord
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Please stop with the poeticism.

Everything Visas says is cryptic--it's the theme of that game. We have no idea if Nihilus spent days, hours, minutes, seconds etc. consolidating power, focusing his energies--there's nothing conclusive.

Did you not play that game? The Conclave on Katarr was broadcasting their presence, hence Nihilus' presence.

I hope you don't view Drain, or Lightning, or Force Choke the same way you see them in the video-games. Drain especially has a myriad of effects and uses. Kun's version kept him harnessed to Yavin's temples. Malak's Drain replenished his energy. Palpatine Drained the lifeforce of the inhabitants of Byss over a time frame of years. Nihilus' Drain was a "feeding" technique--feeding on the Force itself. His technique was mentioned by Kreia to be one as old as the Sith themselves. One such as Palpatine, who as Gideon preached, had the entire galaxy at his disposal, may very well have come across this particular device. And they're not "hiding" within the Force, he... separates himself from it. An artificial Wound of his own crafting, if you will.


Please get over your obsession with Nihilus. He's a cool character in premise but otherwise very dull.

Pretty much all of that is some of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard, or rather read, on a Star Wars EU forum.

Palpatine "artificially creates a wound in the Force?" He "separates himself from it?" Please... That is utter and complete nonsense. Wookieepedia may not be 100% reliable, but I will quote, "A wound in the Force, also known as a hole in the Force, was a type of catastrophic disturbance in the Force. It was a weakness in the fabric of the Force caused by a traumatic event." To say different is utterly ridiculous. It is still Force concealment, or Art of the Small, or whatever you wish to call the variants, but its all the same... hiding in the Force. A wound is much different. So, need I repeat that there is no defense against Force Drain? And need I repeat that Nihilus' mere presence was killing those around him, showing that it did not require arcane Sith rituals and constant preparation to drain? (If Nihilus was even capable of such after he had became what he was).

As for the poeticism, sadly it's necessary as that's the only way Nihilus' hunger and power has been described in Star Wars work. However it was said does not deny that Nihilus, according to his former apprentice AND former master who should know him best, was a wound in the Force that had the potential to wipe out all life in the galaxy if left unchecked.

As for the Conclave, I'd like the source that states they were broadcasting their presence please. Everything I know about it says it was a hidden meeting to, in part, discuss the mysterious attacks against the Jedi. It was Atris, and Atris alone, who leaked information about the Conclave, intending to lure Nihilus there, NOT the Jedi on Katarr. The Jedi there had quite opposite intentions.

Finally, I wasn't aware I was obsessed with Nihilus. Thank you for enlightening me. I thought we were just discussing a hypothetical fight between fictional characters?

Nephthys
Actually, I'm not sure if it was cut-content or not, but Atris actually gave him the location, hoping he'd show up and get his ass Jedi-handed to him. It... didn't work out that way. sad

Thats why she wasn't there apparently.

Also: Try not to take anything too personally AncientSithLord. Most people can come off as assholes here, but thats mostly becuase they've had this argument 3-4 times already. Only about 70% of us are really assholes.

Huh, ******* is filtered, but not assholes.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by AncientSithLord
Pretty much all of that is some of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard, or rather read, on a Star Wars EU forum.You've not been doing this long then. Excuse my... poeticism.

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
Palpatine "artificially creates a wound in the Force?" He "separates himself from it?" Please... That is utter and complete nonsense. Wookieepedia may not be 100% reliable, but I will quote, "A wound in the Force, also known as a hole in the Force, was a type of catastrophic disturbance in the Force. It was a weakness in the fabric of the Force caused by a traumatic event." To say different is utterly ridiculous. It is still Force concealment, or Art of the Small, or whatever you wish to call the variants, but its all the same... hiding in the Force. A wound is much different. So, need I repeat that there is no defense against Force Drain? And need I repeat that Nihilus' mere presence was killing those around him, showing that it did not require arcane Sith rituals and constant preparation to drain? (If Nihilus was even capable of such after he had became what he was). So... you have any evidence, any canon proof for your "There is no defense against Force Drain?" Can you give me a canon quote or statement that says that Palaptine's... withdrawal isn't a defence?

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
As for the poeticism, sadly it's necessary as that's the only way Nihilus' hunger and power has been described in Star Wars work. However it was said does not deny that Nihilus, according to his former apprentice AND former master who should know him best, was a wound in the Force that had the potential to wipe out all life in the galaxy if left unchecked.If that trite prose is all Nihilus has going for him... and it is. His Drain is an ambiguity outside KotOR, his saber skills are average at best, and his TK is his one saving grace---but even that will not stand up to the likes of Palpatine, Luke and Yoda.

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
As for the Conclave, I'd like the source that states they were broadcasting their presence please. Everything I know about it says it was a hidden meeting to, in part, discuss the mysterious attacks against the Jedi. It was Atris, and Atris alone, who leaked information about the Conclave, intending to lure Nihilus there, NOT the Jedi on Katarr. The Jedi there had quite opposite intentions.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually, I'm not sure if it was cut-content or not, but Atris actually gave him the location, hoping he'd show up and get his ass Jedi-handed to him. It... didn't work out that way.Thank you, Exodus. Conceded.

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
Finally, I wasn't aware I was obsessed with Nihilus. Thank you for enlightening me. I thought we were just discussing a hypothetical fight between fictional characters? Considering your candor...

AncientSithLord
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You've not been doing this long then. Excuse my... poeticism.

So... you have any evidence, any canon proof for your "There is no defense against Force Drain?" Can you give me a canon quote or statement that says that Palaptine's... withdrawal isn't a defence?

If that trite prose is all Nihilus has going for him... and it is. His Drain is an ambiguity outside KotOR, his saber skills are average at best, and his TK is his one saving grace---but even that will not stand up to the likes of Palpatine, Luke and Yoda.



Thank you, Exodus. Conceded.

Considering your candor...

May I point out that you don't seem to have argued many of my points? You're not bringing any evidence to the table. You refuse to even concede on your point that Palpatine hiding in the Force is artificially creating a wound, which is quite frankly ludicrous... I'd appreciate if you brought some solid evidence that Palpatine hiding in the Force could be such a defense.

As for evidence for Force drain having no defense, just read the article on it at Wookieepedia. It provides plenty of references, sources and quotes. Offhand I know Kreia says "There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense," when referring to Force Drain. She also says how Force drain is the opposite of bolstering the wills and strengths of others... if you claim hiding in the Force is a defense against Force drain then you must also claim it is a defense against battle meditation. These are powers which affect individuals over a large area; just as users of battle meditation need not search out in the Force every single target and concentrate on them, users of Force drain on the level of Nihilus do not need to seek out specific targets and concentrate on draining them. Take Malachor V as an example; hiding in the Force does not provide aid against the echoes of that world. Nihilus was like a mini Malachor, a wound in the Force whose hunger slowly consumed those around him. As long as there's life nearby it's going to be affected. If it's 'worthy' of Nihilus' attention he will drain it.

The only way I see Palpatine, Yoda, Luke or Anakin surviving is that Nihilus dismisses them as far below his attention, too little to drain... Of course, if they actually challenge him that would change.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Only about 70% of us are really assholes.

Comforting. stick out tongue

Nephthys
Well, just don't mention Dr McBeefington's indescribably tiny penis and you'll be fine.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by AncientSithLord
May I point out that you don't seem to have argued many of my points? You're not bringing any evidence to the table. You refuse to even concede on your point that Palpatine hiding in the Force is artificially creating a wound, which is quite frankly ludicrous... I'd appreciate if you brought some solid evidence that Palpatine hiding in the Force could be such a defense.Christ, talk about not understanding quotation marks and insinuations.

How can I possibly argue against Nihilus when his entire fight revolves around the ambiguous Drain?

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
As for evidence for Force drain having no defense, just read the article on it at Wookieepedia. It provides plenty of references, sources and quotes. Offhand I know Kreia says "There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense," when referring to Force Drain.That Kreia knows of. Of course being that this is 4000 years prior to the films... she MUST know all about the future. You do know what an in-universe source is, don't you?

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
She also says how Force drain is the opposite of bolstering the wills and strengths of others... if you claim hiding in the Force is a defense against Force drain then you must also claim it is a defense against battle meditation.She says, she said, she claims, she states. Do you have anything NOT backed up by Kreia's manipulative, in-universe, 4000-years-behind-schedule voice?

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
The only way I see Palpatine, Yoda, Luke or Anakin surviving is that Nihilus dismisses them as far below his attention, too little to drain... Of course, if they actually challenge him that would change.
You are aware of Yoda's position of "greatest foe the darkness had ever seen"? Of Palpatine's position of most powerful and accomplished Sith Lord/scholar? Of Luke's demi-God status of illusion-maker and black hole mover? Of Anakin's... something. He's just Anakin right now.

AncientSithLord
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Christ, talk about not understanding quotation marks and insinuations.

How can I possibly argue against Nihilus when his entire fight revolves around the ambiguous Drain?

That Kreia knows of. Of course being that this is 4000 years prior to the films... she MUST know all about the future. You do know what an in-universe source is, don't you?

She says, she said, she claims, she states. Do you have anything NOT backed up by Kreia's manipulative, in-universe, 4000-years-behind-schedule voice?

You are aware of Yoda's position of "greatest foe the darkness had ever seen"? Of Palpatine's position of most powerful and accomplished Sith Lord/scholar? Of Luke's demi-God status of illusion-maker and black hole mover? Of Anakin's... something. He's just Anakin right now.

If Kreia says Force lightning is generally blue-white, that does not change 4,000 years later. Kreia basically says, in so many words, Force Drain is like the opposite of Battle Meditation. This doesn't change 4,000 years later either.

As for the drain, how ambiguous is it?

1. There is no defense against it. Unless you're a wound in the Force, you're doomed. Everyone knows this and to argue against it is folly.

2. Force Drain can be instantaneous, at least when working on a few people at once.

3. Force Drain can wipe the life from entire planets, seemingly within a few minutes at the very most.

So, Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin are not wounds in the Force. They're defenseless against the drain. Nihilus wins.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by AncientSithLord
If Kreia says Force lightning is generally blue-white, that does not change 4,000 years later. Kreia basically says, in so many words, Force Drain is like the opposite of Battle Meditation. This doesn't change 4,000 years later either.

As for the drain, how ambiguous is it?

1. There is no defense against it. Unless you're a wound in the Force, you're doomed. Everyone knows this and to argue against it is folly.

2. Force Drain can be instantaneous, at least when working on a few people at once.

3. Force Drain can wipe the life from entire planets, seemingly within a few minutes at the very most.

So, Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin are not wounds in the Force. They're defenseless against the drain. Nihilus wins.

http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/facepalm.gif

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by AncientSithLord
If Kreia says Force lightning is generally blue-white, that does not change 4,000 years later. Kreia basically says, in so many words, Force Drain is like the opposite of Battle Meditation. This doesn't change 4,000 years later either.

As for the drain, how ambiguous is it?

1. There is no defense against it. Unless you're a wound in the Force, you're doomed. Everyone knows this and to argue against it is folly.

2. Force Drain can be instantaneous, at least when working on a few people at once.

3. Force Drain can wipe the life from entire planets, seemingly within a few minutes at the very most.

So, Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin are not wounds in the Force. They're defenseless against the drain. Nihilus wins. *facepalm*

Jesus Christ, dude...

Shoes
Originally posted by AncientSithLord
Sidious wins.

FTFY

truejedi
Originally posted by AncientSithLord
May I point out that you don't seem to have argued many of my points?


You need to respond to Red's, and mine post as well. Then we can look into dissecting this.

First thing though: It is canon fact that Sidious > Nihilus, from multiple sources.

If you work from there, you have set Nihilus up for a speedy death.

But please respond to the earlier posts.
Thanks.

smile

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by AncientSithLord
First of all, Nihilus does also show incredible power apart from the mega drain, which I'll get into later. He tears his *entire fleet* from Malachor. It is not said in a way that suggests he very slowly pulled each ship either, it is simply said, he pulled his entire fleet, and not only that, but the Ravager and likely others as well should have had no atmosphere and been torn apart long ago. Instead, Nihilus used his power to keep it all together, like a ghost ship. Nihilus seems to pretty much ignore all laws of physics, and almost carelessly uses the Force on a massive scale not seen elsewhere. He decides he wants a fleet. He doesn't hire several thousand workers to build one for millions of credits. He uses the Force to pull an entire fleet of smashed ships from the grip of the Mass Shadow Generator. Oops, they're smashed to bits, are open to space... basically they're not ships at all, or at least not ships anyone could use. No problem, Nihilus' power keeps them all together, with atmosphere. He needs a crew. He drains most of the life from some people until they're his utter slaves. Like zombies. He can stun three people, two of which are powerful Force-sensitives, in an instant. All at once. And then of course the mega drain, which he uses to consume all life on an entire planet. Including hundreds of Jedi, even a very powerful one like Vandar Tokare. The same could be done to Coruscant in the prequel era. Nihilus arrives, drains the entire planet... that's the Senate and most of the Jedi in the galaxy gone at the same time.

Now, as for the drain being instant... Yes, the power he uses on the Exile is drain, and frankly I can't believe you'd try to deny that. The Exile says "If you would feed on Jedi, then feed on me." Nihilus extends his hand, and the red drain beam extends from it. It hits the Exile, and Nihilus collapses. The Exile points out Nihilus has weakened himself due to him trying to feed on a wound in the Force, and the hunger is consuming him now. Look it up on Wookieepedia if you wish.

Also, there's Nihilus' confrontation with Kreia. Nihilus and Sion walk in. Kreia and Sion ignite their lightsabers, and Nihilus Force pushes her into a wall. Now, Kreia is a powerful Force-user. The fact that Kreia could not block the Force push is a sign of, as was pointed out, Nihilus' awesome telekinetic power. Not only that, but I'd say the drain on Kreia must have been pretty instant, since within seconds of hitting the wall, Kreia cannot use the Force to summon her lightsaber.

And of course there's Kreia herself and her confrontation with the Jedi Masters in the Dantooine Enclave. Kreia knows how to use Force Drain too, but not on the same level as Nihilus. She walks in, says a few words, and then drains three powerful Jedi Masters. All at once. Instantly. The drain is only "in operation" for a few seconds at most, showing that it does not take long either, and works on multiple people, even powerful Force-sensitives, at once. And this is Kreia, who is nowhere near Nihilus when it comes to draining. Nihilus can drain entire planets.

So, we know the drain is instant, and can work on multiple powerful Force-sensitives... If Kreia can do it on three Jedi then there's no problem Nihilus, far more accomplished in draining than Kreia, can *easily* do it on one Sith and three Jedi. That's the point. Force Drain is a technique against which there is NO defense. It is a way of feeding on the Force, on life... Nihilus took the drain to its extreme. He was a wraith, no body, just a dark spirit with robes, a skull mask and a lightsaber. His hunger and his power was almost incomprehensible. His mere presence killed... "In his wake, life dies, sacrificing to his hunger." His voice brought pain and death. He could turn others into utter slaves by draining most of their essence, leaving almost empty shells. Kreia drained three Jedi Masters. Nihilus drained Kreia. Nihilus drained entire planets. Nihilus could have drained the Exile, if she weren't a wound in the Force like him. Palpatine, Yoda, Luke and Anakin aren't wounds in the Force. And if anything their great power in the Force just make them easier targets for Nihilus, since the drain feeds on the Force. Nihilus did not see in terms of individuals, but entire planets. Only several billion people to drain with a sidedish of several hundred Jedi are enough for him to notice, for him to even bother focusing on. Four Force-sensitives? Pah, Nihilus would drain them with barely any notice. They would be insignificant to him. Pretty much irrelevant. There's no contest. Nihilus wins.

Oh, and thanks for the welcome. stick out tongue No matter how much you carry on about Nihilus, Sidious is his superior according to canon sources. You seem to take wookieepedia for granted. Did you miss where it said Sidious was the most powerful sith lord?

It was believed Sidious mastered just about every force technique. Maybe he was not the best in every category, but he was ONE of the best in every category, which would pretty much make him the best all around. Galen also showed far greater feats of TK than Sidious, but that did not save him from being overpowered and destroyed by Sidious' lightning.

As for Nihilus' drain, you would have to prove he can use that against Sidious before Sidious can use his superior force lightning against Nihilus. Or before Sidious can shove a lightsaber through his chest with his superior force aided speed. Kreia Knows nothing about the PT era jedi, so she has no idea what they are capable of. Yoda spent centuries developing defenses against different dark side techniques, so it's possible he knew some sort of technique against the drain.

Slash_KMC
No, you are all wrong, I agree with AncientSithLord. There is no defense against Nihilus his Force Drain, the only way to take him down is by being a wound in the Force like the Exile.

It doesn't matter how much proof there is that puts those four above Nihilus, he is just better thanks to his Force Drain.

Eminence
Source?

teehee, iz funny cu i no there isn't one.

Prick.

truejedi
Dorsk 81 removed over EIGHTY star destroyers from a SOLAR SYSTEM in a single moment in Jedi Academy.Further - if less significant - the scan at the top-right of Dorsk 81's page notes that the fleet was pushed "halfway through the Yavin system."facepalm

truejedi
Originally posted by Eminence
Source?

teehee, iz funny cu i no there isn't one.

Prick.

Further - if less significant - the scan at the top-right of Dorsk 81's page notes that the fleet was pushed "halfway through the Yavin system."facepalm

Eminence. I did know this. Your facepalm is pointless. My reason for listing Dorsk 81 was to point out how the fact that Nihilus used the force to remove a fleet from a planet hardly proves he is the greatest TK-er ever.
Can you prove Nihilus didn't do the same thing? He had THOUSANDS of sith working with him, and we have no proof he didn't recieve similar help.

Point still is: None of that is as impressive as Luke being immovable, even to the black hole at the center of the galaxy. AncientSithLords did not address that.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by AncientSithLord
If Kreia says Force lightning is generally blue-white, that does not change 4,000 years later. Kreia basically says, in so many words, Force Drain is like the opposite of Battle Meditation. This doesn't change 4,000 years later either.

If all around Smart Guy Aristotle says that humans will never be able to fly, then are we still human? (because, in case you haven't noticed, we can fly.)

It is entirely possible for there to have been no defense against the infantry version of the drain (the one that she used on the Masters, and (presumably) the one N. used on her before the "indignities"wink at the time she was speaking. Luckily, knowledge is not static. So:


"Everyone" doesn't know this at all. How can N. attack one's bond to the Force if he cannot find it? How can he attack it if it isn't there? Both are achievable by techniques that may not have been known to Kreia.

Prove it. Then prove that it is the same as the unblockable technique. Then prove that it is not affected by the aforementioned techniques.


Cool?


Your second sentence has not been substantiated. Try again.


*and my post...



Now you've done it. What if you've reminded him/her that it is her time of the month again!? Lord have mercy on us all.

lawl activity
vision? darn it alot]

edit:

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/facepalm.gif

truejedi
Originally posted by AncientSithLord
First of all, Nihilus does also show incredible power apart from the mega drain, which I'll get into later. He tears his *entire fleet* from Malachor. It is not said in a way that suggests he very slowly pulled each ship either, it is simply said, he pulled his entire fleet, and not only that, but the Ravager and likely others as well should have had no atmosphere and been torn apart long ago.
first, you inserted the word ENTIRE into that claim. Secondly, don't get us wrong, we do believe he TK'd them from the surface, BUT you can't prove he used the force to do it, i don't believe. He could have "torn" the fleet from Malachor with tractor beams. Unlikely, but still possible, and therefore not something you want to plan your argument around.


No one here will tell you that N is trivial. But we have muliple sources that state Darth Sidious is the most powerful DLOTS. Basically, anything Nihilus displays to prove his power STILL falls short of the canon quotes that put Sidious at the top.



Wookipedia is not a canon source. It is someone's intepretation of what they saw in a cutscene. You simply can't prove what you are saying here.
YOU may use wookipedia to hunt me down a real source, and then you will have proof, but I promise you, such a source doesn't exist.

You think that cutscene sets up, and looks like a drain. If i don't think it looks that way, you can't prove i'm wrong, meaning you can't prove it was a drain. You would need another source. (which i'm open to , but i know doesn't exist. )

If it was the drain, where did you get the idea that it was instant? Nothing that you said supports that.



Where is the proof of a drain? Kreia couldn't use the force to summon her lightsaber because she was stunned from hitting the wall. (at least, that could be another interpretation.) you aren't helping yourself so far.

Kreia is absolutely nowhere near the level of Sidious, Luke, or Yoda in TK. When DOES she use TK? You saying: "Now, Kreia is a powerful Force-user" Means absolutely nothing. It is relative to nothing else.



Nothing Kreia does has any relevance to what Nihilus is capable of.

You may know this, but you certainly haven't proven it yet.

Wrong. Those 3 jedi are absolute UNKNOWNS. we have no idea how powerful they are in the force. You picked 3 of the most powerful force-users of all time in Sidious/Yoda/Luke. No comparison. None. You are trying to draw a parallel that doesn't exist.



Citation needed.



you don't understand the meaning of proof at this point. This entire thing is pure speculation. You are using Kreia's feats to prove what Nihilus can do, for crying out loud. It just doesn't work.
You are welcome to your opinion, but you can't present it as fact.

truejedi
red, we replied at the same time again. Double-whammy is the name of the game i suppose.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by truejedi
red, we replied at the same time again. Double-whammy is the name of the game i suppose.
Except that your post makes me want to argue with you.

Tractor beams?
wutno

truejedi
its a possible explanation. Not that it is likely, but since the quote is "Nihilus tore his fleet from the gravity-well at Malachor" We really don't have proof that he DID use the force, and DIDN'T use tractor beams.

Red Nemesis
Except that if he was on the planet then it is unclear how he would actually use tractor beams?

So just no

truejedi
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Except that if he was on the planet then it is unclear how he would actually use tractor beams?

So just no

of course its unclear. but lack of clarity isn't proof.

Red Nemesis
unclear as in impossible for him to

truejedi
not at all, actually. If he was on the planet anyway, the word "ripped from" is erroneous. You can't rip something from someplace you already are.

But we are arguing schematics.

Red Nemesis
laughing out loud

Eminence
truejedi
Eminence. I did know this.Not even a little.

... And twisting the feat completely is the way to go about that?

no expression

truejedi
Its not outside the realm of possibility.

Red Nemesis
Tj, that was a weak deflection. Faunus can call Burden of Proof on you now. (What with your failure of mistakage there, I'm not sure he would be out of line. That was pure speculation. As our friend acquaintance DS would say, "reaching." DS doesn't have friends, so it was inaccurate to call him one. I apologize.)

truejedi
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Tj, that was a weak deflection. Faunus can call Burden of Proof on you now. (What with your failure of mistakage there, I'm not sure he would be out of line. That was pure speculation. As our friend acquaintance DS would say, "reaching." DS doesn't have friends, so it was inaccurate to call him one. I apologize.)

mistakage?

Red Nemesis
Yes mistakage.

As in: "The mistakage in that post warrants someone calling you on Burden of Proof."

(I've adopted a descriptivist paradigm for tonight, mirroring my IRL behavior.)

truejedi
whatever pleases you i suppose. I'm going to go watch more LOST. hooray.

Eminence
truejedi
Its not outside the realm of possibility.The edit is an improvement, but Anakin being Yoda's illegitimate lovechild isn't outside the realm of possibility either. That doesn't make it a valid point in this debate.

The rather simple point I was making before you tried your hand at deflection was that you screwed up your citation of the Yavin incident. You then appeared to chide Nemesis for not being familiar with it (which triggered the facepalm).

You're refusing to admit you were wrong, which apparently happened two pages ago with Gideon.

If you aren't wrong, the first explanation that comes to mind requires that you intentionally ignored the discrepancies between your version of the Yavin incident and the real one - in which Dorsk 81 shoves seventeen (not "EIGHTY"wink Star Destroyers halfway through the system while standing atop a Force apex and uniting the power of thirty Jedi and Kyp Durron with his own - to draw some parallel to the possibility that Nihilus had "similar help" from some of the "THOUSANDS of Sith working with him," which would reconcile your last few posts with your assertion that " did know ," all of which seems so incredibly unnecessary and stupid - given the contention you'd apparently been trying to have me disprove and the incontrovertible distortion of an important numerical figure - that I won't even bother coming up with a second one.

The "absence of proof" argument only goes so far, and in this case it would appear that you're only using it to cover for your previous mistake, which again seems absurd because as noted above, you wouldn't even be pulling that off. How does the specific feat of Dorsk 81 shoving seventeen Star Destroyers halfway through a star system suggest that Nihilus isn't "the greatest individual?] TK-er ever"?

Further, don't make the mistake of assuming I'm debating for Nihilus because I addressed a mistake in the opposition's argument, or even that I'm addressing the case at large at all. I almost included a disclaimer at the end of that first post to dissuade you or anyone else from doing something like this, but decided no one would be tactless enough to try it.

Good job.

Ms.Marvel
you would say that douche >\

Eminence
Your mom.

truejedi
Originally posted by Eminence
The edit is an improvement, but Anakin being Yoda's illegitimate lovechild isn't outside the realm of possibility either. That doesn't make it a valid point in this debate.


What is the point of this debate Faunus? What is valid in this debate was whether or not Nihilus has greater TK ability than Luke, Yoda, or Sidious. Red stated that his feat of "ripping a fleet" out of the gravity well at malachor was the greatest Tk feat on record. I respectfully disagreed, saying that the Dorsk 81 feat was greater.


My screw-up of the Yavin incident was in the number of Star Destroyers. I was honestly thinking it was 80, but you say it is 17, so we will leave it at that. The entire point of introducing Dorsk was to say that Nihilus's feat was NOT the greatest in the mythos. Whether dorsk had help or not is immaterial when it comes down to which feat was greatest.

If you don't believe me on that, check back: That is the same post in which i listed Luke's feat: (black hole, center of galaxy, etc.)

The whole point of that post was to disagree with Kyle that N. had the greatest feat in history. If I am making that point, why would i bring up the other jedi on Yavin? The feat occurred, and it was greater than N., and that was all that mattered.

When i referenced it the first time, I assumed Red would know what I was talking about, so why would I include the details? And why would I intentionally mis-represent something about star wars on THIS website? Like there is no one around who would catch me in my "deceit"? You think i don't know better than that? You insult me.

Finally: I was not chiding Red, and I'm pretty sure he knew that. We were having a perfectly civil discourse.

I was wrong about the number of star destroyers. I was not wrong about the occurence of a feat on a larger scale than N's.

Gideon got pissy because I wasn't really interested in Sidious's mind-fogging powers. It was irrelevant to this thread, and we ALL know that Sidious has great powers in that category based on his ability to limit the Force for 10,000 Jedi. It was irrelevant. In all honesty,
If you can explain to me whatever the hell Gideon was talking on about off-topic, you will have done better than Gideon. Mostly he just used emoticons.



I tried to read this sentence 3 times. It is confusing. Try reading this one sentence by itself, and tell me again what you are accusing me of.

I think you are saying I'm reaching, and I freely admit that. "realm of possibility" should clue you in on that. My personal opinion is that N. did just what Tobin and Kreia said he did. He pulled that fleet up in a moment.
There is, however, no proof of that. I have given you the scenario of the Sith assistants as a mere example of something else that could have affected the small amount of information we have. I would have to be a fool to believe it happened like that, and I don't.

My point is, you can't prove he pulled the fleet out by himself anymore than I can prove he had help. We have two different scenarios (by himself vs. thousands of helpers) and can't prove either one. They are equal in that regard.


The dorsk incident was merely to show he wasn't the owner of the greatest feat of TK in the mythos.

It was followed up by the Luke incident to show that even one of the combatants in the fight had a greater feat.

Nothing more, nothing less.


Obviously not. You notice I haven't even attempted to engage you in the actual debate at all.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Eminence
Source?

teehee, iz funny cu i no there isn't one.

Prick. *slurp*

I just licked your face. Now it's sticky.

Eminence
truejedi
What is the point of this debate Faunus?Further, I demand a concession.

And cash.

Not in this thread.

"Some of the strongest and most impressive" =/= "the greatest."

Which is likely true, but an enormously stupid comparison to make. Dorsk 81 had the backing of a Force apex, thirty Jedi students, and Kyp Durron. Is there any evidence that Nihilus had remotely similar assistance, if any?

Nihilus destroyed the Jedi. Therefore Nihilus = Sidious, because Sidious also destroyed the Jedi!

You can't make a fair comparison if you remove every goddamn detail of a given event.

Nope. That was the next post.

Which he never said to begin with.

See above.

You tell me.

Chiding doesn't necessitate vitriol.Looks like a reprimand to me.

Later.

I'm very proud of it.

a.) The Nihilus contention was stupid.

b.) SmudgingIgnoring the facts about the Dorsk incident was stupid.

Then don't waste my time bringing it to the table, TJ.

Tell me what that had to do with my original post to you.

Paul McCartney
Nihilus wins. He can kill anyone.

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