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Who wins?

Bronze Tiger

Cassandra, Tiger bows to her as the superior fighter.

Cassandra Cain.

Originally posted by Q99
Cassandra, Tiger bows to her as the superior fighter.
Definitely.

Cassandra beats BT like Shiva did.

Cassie 7/10

I'd say BT......when he fought slade they were pretty even due to his ma skill, but slade has fought cassie and simply toyed with her in the past........he's even taken her on along with a team of titans.

And Shiva made BT look like a chump.

Cassie snapped Shiva's neck and killed her.

ABC blah blah blah

Originally posted by namorsubby
I'd say BT......when he fought slade they were pretty even due to his ma skill, but slade has fought cassie and simply toyed with her in the past........he's even taken her on along with a team of titans.

What? Cass has gotten draws with Slade on numerous occasions (Slade has never gotten a win against her), and when he fought the Titans, he didn't match up against her, he mostly fought with his kids.


Btw, when I say "BT bows to Cassandra in skill," I mean, they met, he literally bowed out of respect.

Turner was also one of her trainers when she was a kid.

Cass beating Shiva is more to with CIS and some twisted motherly love than Cass being superior IMO.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cass beating Shiva is more to with CIS and some twisted motherly love than Cass being superior IMO.

Eh, whatever else, Shiva does also love to have an opportunity to give her all in a fight. And it's two wins.

It's not like Cassandra doesn't perform just as well against other top-tiers. Draws against Slade, has a slight edge against Bruce when they spar, loses to... well, pretty much only metas.

I like Turner 6/10.

He has been mishandled on several occasions.

The Bronze Tiger that decimated Batman in a few panels should be the standard.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cass beating Shiva is more to with CIS and some twisted motherly love than Cass being superior IMO.

Not true. They've fought multiple times, at least 4 or 5, and Cassie still has the majority on wins even though she spent time depowered during some fights.

Originally posted by Konton
Not true. They've fought multiple times, at least 4 or 5, and Cassie still has the majority on wins even though she spent time depowered during some fights.

And Shiva was still her biological mother in everyone of them...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And Shiva was still her biological mother in everyone of them...

And conversely, Cassandra was not trying to kill her in all but one of them.

Shiva seemed to speak of the fact that Cass actually managed that in glowing terms. Sandy doesn't seem to think she was holding back.

Plus, there is her showings against Bruce, and Slade, and pretty much everyone else.

Can Batgirl beat Batman like BT did?

I'll note, Batman at the time of that defeat was not written as strong in martial arts as he later was. Considering that years past in-plot, it's not surprising, especially after encountering fighters like Tiger.

So no, not that easy, but she could still do so.

Originally posted by Q99
I'll note, Batman at the time of that defeat was not written as strong in martial arts as he later was. Considering that years past in-plot, it's not surprising, especially after encountering fighters like Tiger.

So no, not that easy, but she could still do so.

Didn't pre-crisis Batman have a photographic memory, making it easier to learn MA's?

I dunno.

I think Bruce could overpower Cass.

Cass has the skill and speed maybe, but they're about on par with reflexes, and Bats has the strength.

Maybe, but before the 70s when kung fu became big, martial arts wasn't such a big part of his character and while he was a good fighter, the characters that came in with the martial arts craze believably surpassed him, the whole martial arts trio (Dragon, Tiger, Shiva) seemed to be on a different level. Nowadays? He's in DC's top ten list and no-one has an easy time with him.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon

I think Bruce could overpower Cass.

Cass has the skill and speed maybe, but they're about on par with reflexes, and Bats has the strength.

They've fought twice on panel I know of, even once on some drugs that made neither hold back (all the drug did was bring out someone's 'inner self,' not affect physical capabilities btw).

The first was a sparing match, pre-Shiva fight (still mute in fact. He rated her as below Shiva at this point), where he criticized her for not being at her best... then he coughed up blood. She had hit him with strikes causing internal damage he hadn't even noticed. Which made him grin- she had won in a way he didn't even see.

The second, the drug fight, lasted a double-issue and had Batman on the defensive for most of it, retreated constantly and using tricks and gadgets to avoid Cass.

And I'm pretty sure he acknowledges her as the best martial artist on Earth too, so that's something.


One real issue is strength doesn't matter that *much* in a world where stuff like nerve strikes really work, not to mention that Cass is still strong enough to kick through brick walls and inches of bulletproof glass. To turn it into a strength match, you need some hold or other way of making it muscle on muscle, without Cassandra simply going with it, or shifting to another form of attack, slipping out, coming in from a different angle, or what have you. Being small and fast than everyone, she's good at that.

Cass can take it to most peak human MA's, barring Tim Drake, who seems to punk her with laughable ease.


Understandable, considering his level of awesome, but still funny.

Originally posted by Q99

The first was a sparing match, pre-Shiva fight (still mute in fact. He rated her as below Shiva at this point), where he criticized her for not being at her best... then he coughed up blood. She had hit him with strikes causing internal damage he hadn't even noticed. Which made him grin- she had won in a way he didn't even see. If we exclude the fact that he stopped his hand prior to what would have been a fight ending blow, and she knew it as it came through the holes in her defense and froze up like a deer in headlights. And without looking since I'm lazy just getting home from work, if I remember right, Batman only used one hand the entire scene.

Cassandra is better than him, by continuity. She wins.

Originally posted by Juntai
If we exclude the fact that he stopped his hand prior to what would have been a fight ending blow, and she knew it as it came through the holes in her defense and froze up like a deer in headlights. And without looking since I'm lazy just getting home from work, if I remember right, Batman only used one hand the entire scene.

We only saw the very end of it, and the implication was she had already *won* with the unseen attacks before that, he just hadn't noticed.