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So, I've been hearing some info from some people that DBZ characters cannot move at lightspeed. On the other hand, there are people saying that even Raditz could move at lightspeed. It's very annoying how extreme the difference in opinions are.

So, what I want to know is this: Can a DBZ character move at the speed of light or not?

No.

Absolutely not.

Raditz being FTL was a dub fabrication, it is not present in the original manga.

To date, the best speed feat in the DBZ manga is Gotenks circling the world a few times in 20+ minutes.

Originally posted by NemeBro
No.

Absolutely not.

Raditz being FTL was a dub fabrication, it is not present in the original manga.

To date, the best speed feat in the DBZ manga is Gotenks circling the world a few times in 20+ minutes.

Piccolo was able to fire a beam to the moon and destroy it in about a second and a half when Gohan had transformed into an ape. I don't know the math, but I assume that's a pretty significant amount of speed on that shot. Raditz was able to dodge something like this, so a better explanation than "dub fabrication" is needed to debunk that fully. Still, it may not be close to light speed at all...

As for Gotenks, he took a nap in that amount time as well. In the anime, it took him about 6 seconds to circle the world 9 times, and he took a nap afterwards.

Also, I heard something about the Instant Transmission not being a speed feat because you cant be tagged out of it. Basically, it was said to be teleportation. Is this true as well?

Whoa, one doesn't have to be as fast as something to dodge it.

If the beam is fired from, let's say 40 feet, then Raditz needs to move out of it's path, maybe 2 feet, Raditz needs to move 40/2 = 20 = one twentieth as fast as the beam to get out of the way. Assuming he didn't anticipate it at all and start moving when the finger was pointed as opposed to when the beam was launched.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Piccolo was able to fire a beam to the moon and destroy it in about a second and a half when Gohan had transformed into an ape. I don't know the math, but I assume that's a pretty significant amount of speed on that shot. Raditz was able to dodge something like this, so a better explanation than "dub fabrication" is needed to debunk that fully. Still, it may not be close to light speed at all...

No, you're correct.

Radditz never said he could move lightspeed, but he could move far faster than a bullet. Radditz said that Pic's aim was a little off.

And, yeah, the blast didn't travel faster than light beacuse it takes about the same time in the show as it does in real life: a little over 1 second.


Originally posted by LLLLLink
As for Gotenks, he took a nap in that amount time as well. In the anime, it took him about 6 seconds to circle the world 9 times, and he took a nap afterwards.

Yeah, that's not even a percent of lightspeed. That doesn't really mean anything.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Also, I heard something about the Instant Transmission not being a speed feat because you cant be tagged out of it. Basically, it was said to be teleportation. Is this true as well?

Well, it's MUCH faster than light by many many times. But, they idiotically stated that it was light speed travel. Stupid, really.

Now, Kabito Kai does teleportation.

Originally posted by NemeBro
To date, the best speed feat in the DBZ manga is Gotenks circling the world a few times in 20+ minutes.
No time frame was given. Stop treating speculation as fact.

http://media1.mangavolume.com/Manga/Dragon%20Ball/Dragon%20Ball%20483/compressed/36895_780273.jpg

http://media1.mangavolume.com/Manga/Dragon%20Ball/Dragon%20Ball%20483/compressed/36895_780274.jpg

Originally posted by dadudemon

Well, it's MUCH faster than light by many many times. But, they idiotically stated that it was light speed travel. Stupid, really.

Now, Kabito Kai does teleportation.

EfBT6YHHsmg

Yeah, I watched Cooler's Revenge and Cooler was able to tag Goku out of Instant Transmission, which destroys the idea that it's teleportation.

Also, about Sayains in space, wasn't Bardock able to breathe in space when he confronted Frieza when he destroyed the planet Vegeta?

Originally posted by LLLLLink
EfBT6YHHsmg

Yeah, I watched Cooler's Revenge and Cooler was able to tag Goku out of Instant Transmission, which destroys the idea that it's teleportation.

Also, about Sayains in space, wasn't Bardock able to breathe in space when he confronted Frieza when he destroyed the planet Vegeta?

Actually no it doesn't destroy it because its a non canon movie.

I thought Endless Mike would post here by now. The main issue with DBZ feats is that ki beams can be either slow as hell or fast as hell. Their too hard to judge on since lightyears don't exist in DBZ IIRC.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
So, I've been hearing some info from some people that DBZ characters cannot move at lightspeed. On the other hand, there are people saying that even Raditz could move at lightspeed. It's very annoying how extreme the difference in opinions are.

So, what I want to know is this: Can a DBZ character move at the speed of light or not?

Well I believe what ever the anime says, so yes. When it comes to anime version of the characters. Now manga versions, prolly not. Goku could though, due to IT.

But as far as I know, there's no set speed limits so the whole speed thing in both the manga and anime are inconclusive.

Their traveling speed is obviously not lightspeed. Not sure about their battle speed.

Originally posted by LLLLLink

Yeah, I watched Cooler's Revenge and Cooler was able to tag Goku out of Instant Transmission, which destroys the idea that it's teleportation.



Non-canon. Cooler doesn't even exist in canon, so it doesn't count.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
EfBT6YHHsmg

Yeah, I watched Cooler's Revenge and Cooler was able to tag Goku out of Instant Transmission, which destroys the idea that it's teleportation.


I wouldn't say so. It simply seems to be teleportation via passing through whatever little dimension/space thing we see there, and then emerging at a completely unrelated point massive distances away.

also, the cooler movie is not canon

For the record, I was talking about battle speed and by believin' the anime, I mean the other instances in the anime where Goku and the gang were mentioned or inferred to be going faster than light, in battle. Not the Raditz thing.

Originally posted by LLLLLink

Also, about Sayains in space, wasn't Bardock able to breathe in space when he confronted Frieza when he destroyed the planet Vegeta?

Big plot hole there and so is with Gotenks flying around the Earth since saiyans supposedly suffer the same effect a human without a breathing apparatus in space would. Storing oxygen internally for a certain period of time? Just an idea but most likely not true.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Piccolo was able to fire a beam to the moon and destroy it in about a second and a half when Gohan had transformed into an ape. I don't know the math, but I assume that's a pretty significant amount of speed on that shot. Raditz was able to dodge something like this, so a better explanation than "dub fabrication" is needed to debunk that fully. Still, it may not be close to light speed at all...

As for Gotenks, he took a nap in that amount time as well. In the anime, it took him about 6 seconds to circle the world 9 times, and he took a nap afterwards.

Also, I heard something about the Instant Transmission not being a speed feat because you cant be tagged out of it. Basically, it was said to be teleportation. Is this true as well? 1. Not near lightspeed, and you do not necessarily need to be as fast as something to dodge it.

2. I was being generous. And... We do not actually see him taking a nap, according to Astner's scans we actually seem to see him land. So... where was the nap?

3. It is essentially teleportation, Cooler movie is noncanon, he has never shown to move while "Transmitting."

Originally posted by Astner
No time frame was given. Stop treating speculation as fact.

http://media1.mangavolume.com/Manga/Dragon%20Ball/Dragon%20Ball%20483/compressed/36895_780273.jpg

http://media1.mangavolume.com/Manga/Dragon%20Ball/Dragon%20Ball%20483/compressed/36895_780274.jpg The Fusion is thirty minutes long.

Piccolo said he onlyhas a minute left before it ends.

Thereforce, it took over twenty minutes.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The Fusion is thirty minutes long.

Piccolo said he onlyhas a minute left before it ends.

Thereforce, it took over twenty minutes.
Faulty assumption you're making:
He did only fly around the world as many times as you could see on panel
That his nap was under 9 minutes

Originally posted by Astner
Faulty assumption you're making:
He did only fly around the world as many times as you could see on panel
That his nap was under 9 minutes
1. We should assume it was more than we saw?

2. Point out the nap. We actually see him landing.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. We should assume it was more than we saw?

2. Point out the nap. We actually see him landing.
1. We shouldn't assume anything. He flew at least 5 times around the earth in orbits varying from 2/3 times to 2 times the circumference of the earth. You could say that he flew at least five times around the earth, but not that he flew exactly five times around the earth.

2.http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/2787/gotdn.jpg

Originally posted by Astner
1. We shouldn't assume anything. He flew at least 5 times around the earth in orbits varying from 2/3 times to 2 times the circumference of the earth. You could say that he flew at least five times around the earth, but not that he flew exactly five times around the earth.

2.http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/2787/gotdn.jpg 1. Afraid not, not going to assume it was anything much more.

2. Only we actually see him land.

Did he nap while flying?

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Afraid not, not going to assume it was anything much more.

2. Only we actually see him land.

Did he nap while flying?
1. Then you're a lier, interchanging facts with speculation. Next time you throw a "fact" based argument at me I'll be sure to ask for proof.

2. There's a reason for why there's a scene of the landscape before it shifts from landing to Piccolo arriving. It's called a time skip.

http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/6066/gotenks.jpg

Guys, guys...


There's no way to prove either or.

He said he took a nap. He probably did.

He said he flew around the Earth a lot, he probably did and the Anime shows that he did do both.

The manga is canon and the anime doesn't contradict that. Therefore, we go with the anime cause it has something to go by.

But, let's not get ahead of ourselves here: Nemebro is correct in the argument because Astner did his math wrong. 313

haha, just kidding. I simplified a force calculation by crossing out the same value in the numerator and the denominator...but that happened to the be the acceleration constant, which is necessary in order to express the force calculation: twas an idiotic mistake. So, no biggie, right? Just be right 95% or more the time when you do the math and you're still smart. awesome

Originally posted by dadudemon
, let's not get ahead of ourselves here: Nemebro is correct in the argument because Astner did his math wrong. 313
It's true and I'm ashamed of this.

Especially since I usually do calculations in rotating complex nth dimensional coordinate systems.

Originally posted by Astner
It's true and I'm ashamed of this.

Especially since I usually do calculations in rotating complex nth dimensional coordinate systems.




Just messing with you, bro. Did you see what type of stupid mistake I made in a force calculation? That's highschool shit, and I still simplified my fractions.

It happens.

Do Saiyin Space ships\Capsule Corp Ships travel faster than light?

Originally posted by No End N Site
Do Saiyin Space ships\Capsule Corp Ships travel faster than light?

No.

They travel galactic distances in like a month.

That is FTL travel.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Do Saiyin Space ships\Capsule Corp Ships travel faster than light?

Yup.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Do Saiyin Space ships\Capsule Corp Ships travel faster than light?

Yes..cause of what Nemebro said.

Guys, Gotenks DEFINITELY took a nap after his nine-lap flight. In the anime, you clearly see him lie down on the ground in a resting position. The anime supplements the manga here.

As for Cooler, I thought King Cold mentioned something about Cooler or "another son". Maybe I'm imagining it...yeah...

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Guys, Gotenks DEFINITELY took a nap after his nine-lap flight. In the anime, you clearly see him lie down on the ground in a resting position. The anime supplements the manga here.

As for Cooler, I thought King Cold mentioned something about Cooler or "another son". Maybe I'm imagining it...yeah...

You're imagining it. But, it's possible that you remember that from one of the movies.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Guys, Gotenks DEFINITELY took a nap after his nine-lap flight. In the anime, you clearly see him lie down on the ground in a resting position. The anime supplements the manga here.

As for Cooler, I thought King Cold mentioned something about Cooler or "another son". Maybe I'm imagining it...yeah...

Just want to give you an information, DBGT is considered the side story of original dragon ball series stated by Akira Toriyama himself. And in DBGT, we can see Cooler there. What do you think?

King Kai was able to track Goku's movement through space while he was on his way to Namik even though the ship was movin at FTL speeds. I also remember King Kai sayin' it was kinda hard to follow the ship cuz it was movin' so fast and he said somethin' else too, can't remember, but when Goku was fightin' Freeza, King Kai couldn't track Goku's movements anymore and noted that he had never encountered a speed like that in his long life. He said that.

I remember Burter also being said to have been faster than light and Goku was easily faster.

Piccolo also stated that when Goku and 50% Freeza where fightin', all he could see were beams light.

Now, what conclusions are the average viewer/reader to come to concernin' the speed for certain characters?

Originally posted by No End N Site
King Kai was able to track Goku's movement through space while he was on his way to Namik even though the ship was movin at FTL speeds. I also remember King Kai sayin' it was kinda hard to follow the ship cuz it was movin' so fast and he said somethin' else too, can't remember, but when Goku was fightin' Freeza, King Kai couldn't track Goku's movements anymore and noted that he had never encountered a speed like that in his long life. He said that.

I remember Burter also being said to have been faster than light and Goku was easily faster.

Piccolo also stated that when Goku and 50% Freeza where fightin', all he could see were beams light.

Now, what conclusions are the average viewer/reader to come to concernin' the speed for certain characters?

IIRC the spaceship is 300 times faster than light. If King Kai can't sense Goku's movement, then Goku's battle speed is much faster than that.

I would figure it'd be a lot harder to follow someone in a fight, moving around haphazardly in all kinds of directions, than in a strait line, which is after all, all the ship was doing. A strait line.

Originally posted by Q99
I would figure it'd be a lot harder to follow someone in a fight, moving around haphazardly in all kinds of directions, than in a strait line, which is after all, all the ship was doing. A strait line.

But if their battle speed is same with their travel speed (in this case, hypersonic which is nowhere near 300 times speed of light), then King Kai who can trace a 300 times lightspeed would trace it with no problem. Even though it's not as fast as 300 times lightspeed, it's still somewhere near 300 times lightspeed.

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
But if their battle speed is same with their travel speed (in this case, hypersonic which is nowhere near 300 times speed of light), then King Kai who can trace a 300 times lightspeed would trace it with no problem.

No, because that's assuming vector changes don't affect the difficulty of tracing. Fast or not, a strait line is a strait line. I can track things in a strait line far easier than I could in a chaotic 3-d situation.



Not at all. We don't know what makes difficulty in tracking. Lines are 100% predictable. Pure speed may have very little effect on trackability except at massive levels, while unpredictable and multi-vector speed may throw him off at far far lower speeds, because every time there's a change in direction he has to reevaluate their whole course.

Originally posted by Q99


No, because that's assuming vector changes don't affect the difficulty of tracing. Fast or not, a strait line is a strait line. I can track things in a strait line far easier than I could in a chaotic 3-d situation.



Not at all. We don't know what makes difficulty in tracking. Lines are 100% predictable. Pure speed may have very little effect on trackability except at massive levels, while unpredictable and multi-vector speed may throw him off at far far lower speeds, because every time there's a change in direction he has to reevaluate their whole course.

Then could you explain about when King Kai said that he had never encountered a speed like that? You want to say that you can see a missile flies but you can't see how two tigers fight each other? Hypersonic and 300 times speed of light has a very big difference. Fact.

It's generally common that in anime, battle speed is faster than travel speed even though it's not all of them. Example, Saint Seiya need to run from temple to temple when they want to save Athena while we all know how fast they are in battle.

The only things that are FTL in DBZ are:

- Spaceships
- Instant Transmission/Shunkan Idou (but keep in mind this is teleportation, not actual speed, and will not help against an opponent who is actually faster. For example Goku tried to use it in battle against Cell who didn't have it at that point but Cell was still winning)
- Kaioshin teleportation (another teleportation technique)

End of manga DBZ characters still take several minutes to fly to another point on the earth's surface. Goku was able to track Yakon via air displacement, if they were anywhere close to lightspeed that would have been useless.

There is no evidence for lightspeed/FTL DBZ characters whatsoever. One of the American dubs said Raditz was FTL but that was a mistake as that line was not present in the original. There is a photoshopped scan floating around on the internet where Burter says he's faster than light but again that is false as the original line has him merely saying he's the fastest in the universe (and even he knows that isn't true as Frieza was faster than him). Gotenks flew around the earth several times but he had 29 minutes to do so (as the fusion lasts 30 minutes and at the end Piccolo said he only had 1 minute remaining). In that 1 minute he spent most of it flying to Buu's house, so even if you assume it was on the exact opposite side of the planet that's still not even 1% of lightspeed.

Originally posted by Q99


No, because that's assuming vector changes don't affect the difficulty of tracing. Fast or not, a strait line is a strait line. I can track things in a strait line far easier than I could in a chaotic 3-d situation.

So you can see things movin' at the speed of light.



Originally posted by Q99
Not at all. We don't know what makes difficulty in tracking.

We do...speed. King Kai said it. It was hard for him to keep up with it because it was so fast.Originally posted by Endless Mike
The only things that are FTL in DBZ are:

- Spaceships
- Instant Transmission/Shunkan Idou (but keep in mind this is teleportation, not actual speed, and will not help against an opponent who is actually faster. For example Goku tried to use it in battle against Cell who didn't have it at that point but Cell was still winning)
- Kaioshin teleportation (another teleportation technique)

End of manga DBZ characters still take several minutes to fly to another point on the earth's surface. Goku was able to track Yakon via air displacement, if they were anywhere close to lightspeed that would have been useless.

There is no evidence for lightspeed/FTL DBZ characters whatsoever. One of the American dubs said Raditz was FTL but that was a mistake as that line was not present in the original. There is a photoshopped scan floating around on the internet where Burter says he's faster than light but again that is false as the original line has him merely saying he's the fastest in the universe (and even he knows that isn't true as Frieza was faster than him). Gotenks flew around the earth several times but he had 29 minutes to do so (as the fusion lasts 30 minutes and at the end Piccolo said he only had 1 minute remaining). In that 1 minute he spent most of it flying to Buu's house, so even if you assume it was on the exact opposite side of the planet that's still not even 1% of lightspeed.

So, are we to discredit other showings of pretty fair evidence, based on inconsistent showings of power becuase there is alot of that in DB and DBZ?

What showings are you talking about? Don't tell me you're bringing up the "King Kai couldn't track Goku and Frieza fighting" canard, since that never happened in the manga.

But how does that contradict anything that happened in the manga? Are we now goin' to say that 'everything' that happened in the anime that wasn't shown or said in the manga is impossible? I mean, one media does allow more plot detail to be implemented far easier than the other. It wasn't like Toriyama had nothin' to do with the anime. I remember even readin' an article in Shonen Jump were it was said there were many things he forgot to explain in the manga that he decided should be put in the anime, like Launches appearance at the end of DBZ for example among other things I can't remember.

There are some things worth disputin' when comparin' the 2 medias, but this? And if we are goin' to go by simple inconsistencies, there's alot of stuff said around here that needs to go out the window.

Originally posted by No End N Site
So you can see things movin' at the speed of light.

Yeah, cause light moves at the speed of light.





Originally posted by No End N Site
We do...speed. King Kai said it. It was hard for him to keep up with it because it was so fast.

So, are we to discredit other showings of pretty fair evidence, based on inconsistent showings of power becuase there is alot of that in DB and DBZ?

No. Endless Mike is the most correct one in the thread. No one fights or moves at the speed of light or even significant percentages of C, except when Gotenks flew around the Earth 9 times.


Wait a minute....



That's inconsistancy.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, cause light moves at the speed of light.

iorilmaoSo if someone punched you at the speed of light, you could see it commin'? Clearly you can, clearly.







Originally posted by dadudemon
No. Endless Mike is the most correct one in the thread. No one fights or moves at the speed of light or even significant percentages of C, except when Gotenks flew around the Earth 9 times.


Wait a minute....



That's inconsistancy.

I'm havin a hard time findin' truth in any stance or argument. It seems to me that this is all assumption and pickin' a choosin' what we want to be canon and what's not. None of us are Akira Toriyama, here. And I don't ever remember him sayin' that the anime was totally inadmissible and failed top even closely resemble his original work.

Originally posted by No End N Site
iorilmaoSo if someone punched you at the speed of light, you could see it commin'? Clearly you can, clearly.

that person would be destroyed by protons, hydrogen atoms, not to mention their body being torn to shreds by the velocity. In fact, they might just burst into a very brilliant bright light before they reached C. Also, consider that C is impossible, at a macroscopic level, to reach.

And, no, no one could see anything coming at them, if it were traveling at the speed of light...cause the person traveling at the speed of light would not get there before the light reflecting off their person, got there.









Originally posted by No End N Site
I'm havin a hard time findin' truth in any stance or argument. It seems to me that this is all assumption and pickin' a choosin' what we want to be canon and what's not. None of us are Akira Toriyama, here. And I don't ever remember him sayin' that the anime was totally inadmissible and failed top even closely resemble his original work.

The Gotenks speed feat is the fastest one in the series. This bars teleportation and instant transmission, of course. But out right speed, we only have proof of one being anything remotely close to C and that was Gotenks.

Originally posted by dadudemon
that person would be destroyed by protons, hydrogen atoms, not to mention their body being torn to shreds by the velocity. In fact, they might just burst into a very brilliant bright light before they reached C. Also, consider that C is impossible, at a macroscopic level, to reach.

And, no, no one could see anything coming at them, if it were traveling at the speed of light...cause the person traveling at the speed of light would not get there before the light reflecting off their person, got there.

Ga'dammit, you know what I mean. The act is impossible in more ways than one.


Originally posted by dadudemon
The Gotenks speed feat is the fastest one in the series. This bars teleportation and instant transmission, of course. But out right speed, we only have proof of one being anything remotely close to C and that was Gotenks.

0. Gotenks really wasn't trying

1. That was SS1 Gotenks, he's SS3 now.

2. Mystic Gohan is faster than SS3 Gotenks.

3. Super Buu is faster than Gohan.

4. Vegito is faster than Super Buu.

5. Super Vegito is faster than regular Vegito.

I don't think it's right to just go by showings alone to determine something like this. I should also note that these power jumps and transformations are clearly not minuscule in size. These character's power levels are 'very' far from each other.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Ga'dammit, you know what I mean. The act is impossible in more ways than one.







Originally posted by No End N Site
0. Gotenks really wasn't trying

1. That was SS1 Gotenks, he's SS3 now.

2. Mystic Gohan is faster than SS3 Gotenks.

3. Super Buu is faster than Gohan.

4. Vegito is faster than Super Buu.

5. Super Vegito is faster than regular Vegito.

I don't think it's right to just go by showings alone to determine something like this.

0. You have to prove that. You have to also prove that he could have flown faster if he wanted. Since you can't prove it, either way, this point can and will be thrown out as simply speculation.

1. Prove that that made him faster.

2. Prove that Mystic Gohan is Faster.

3. There's lots of different versions of Super Buu. Which version? Because, most versions are slower than Mystic Gohan.

4. Yup.

5. Prolly.



So what have you proven beyond the obvious? Nothing yet.


P.S. I still love you.

Originally posted by dadudemon


0. You have to prove that. You have to also prove that he could have flown faster if he wanted. Since you can't prove it, either way, this point can and will be thrown out as simply speculation.

1. Prove that that made him faster.

2. Prove that Mystic Gohan is Faster.

3. There's lots of different versions of Super Buu. Which version? Because, most versions are slower than Mystic Gohan.

4. Yup.

5. Prolly.



So what have you proven beyond the obvious? Nothing yet.


P.S. I still love you.

0. Based on the fact he was just lallygagging and even took a nap.

1. I don't feel like provin' that right now, but you know that SS3 is better in every way then the previous forms by miles. I shouldn't have to prove that to someone who watches and reads DBZ.

2. Gotenks Buu had the power of Gotenks, Piccolo, and Super Buu combined and all though Super Buu was more powerful, Gohan wasn't a complete peon.

3. Gotenks Buu

I'm just a tad bit to lazy to prove things to you I know damn well you already know. I mean hell, Master Roshi in DB is already faster than sound by several times. Multiply that by like a quadrillion to get just Cell's speed.

Originally posted by No End N Site
0. Based on the fact he was just lallygagging and even took a nap.

1. I don't feel like provin' that right now, but you know that SS3 is better in every way then the previous forms by miles. I shouldn't have to prove that to someone who watches and reads DBZ.

2. Gotenks Buu had the power of Gotenks, Piccolo, and Super Buu combined and all though Super Buu was more powerful, Gohan wasn't a complete peon.

3. Gotenks Buu

I'm just a tad bit to lazy to prove things to you I know damn well you already know. I mean hell, Master Roshi in DB is already faster than sound by several times. Multiply that by like a quadrillion to get just Cell's speed.

Ditto. Someone with more power level is obviously faster, more durable, more powerful.

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
Ditto. Someone with more power level is obviously faster, more durable, more powerful.

Trunks would like a word with you.

Originally posted by No End N Site
0. Based on the fact he was just lallygagging and even took a nap.

Non sequitor. You need to prove that he could have gone faster by:

1. Giving an example of Gotenks or another character saying he could have gone faster.

2. Gotenks saying he was taking it easy while flying.

3. A subsequent feat that has Gotenks going faster.

None of those exist. Therefore, you cannot logically prove that he wasn't trying.

Originally posted by No End N Site
1. I don't feel like provin' that right now, but you know that SS3 is better in every way then the previous forms by miles. I shouldn't have to prove that to someone who watches and reads DBZ.

It was never said that SSJ3 was better in every way compared to the previous forms. In fact, it most certainly is NOT better in every way.

I do not disagree that it is stronger, faster, more energy, etc. But, my point is, it's not stated.

Originally posted by No End N Site
2. Gotenks Buu had the power of Gotenks, Piccolo, and Super Buu combined and all though Super Buu was more powerful, Gohan wasn't a complete peon.

Nah, I'd say that that version of Buu was kicking Gohan's ass pretty thoroughly.

Originally posted by No End N Site
3. Gotenks Buu

I'm just a tad bit to lazy to prove things to you I know damn well you already know. I mean hell, Master Roshi in DB is already faster than sound by several times. Multiply that by like a quadrillion to get just Cell's speed.

Damn well, man. DAMN WELL!

Master Roshi is stronger that Broli.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Non sequitor. You need to prove that he could have gone faster by:

1. Giving an example of Gotenks or another character saying he could have gone faster.

2. Gotenks saying he was taking it easy while flying.

3. A subsequent feat that has Gotenks going faster.

None of those exist. Therefore, you cannot logically prove that he wasn't trying.

Maybe I would have to do all that crazy strenuous shit to satisfy you but any normal guy who was readin' or watchin' could tell he was just an arrogant kid who was playin' around. If he was really tryin' he woulda went SS3. He didn't even take Buu seriously. Gotenks went on a stroll.



Originally posted by dadudemon
It was never said that SSJ3 was better in every way compared to the previous forms. In fact, it most certainly is NOT better in every way.

I do not disagree that it is stronger, faster, more energy, etc. But, my point is, it's not stated.

What way is SS 1 and 2 better than SS3? I am very curious to see.



Originally posted by dadudemon
Nah, I'd say that that version of Buu was kicking Gohan's ass pretty thoroughly.

The same way Vegito kicked Buu ass? I would say it was a 'struggle' unlike any Gohan has ever faced, but it wasn't 0 to 100 in Buu's favor.



Originally posted by dadudemon
Damn well, man. DAMN WELL!

Master Roshi is stronger that Broli.

You know DAMN WELL! that Roshi isn't stronger than Broly. Stop pissin' in my pockets and tellin' me it's rain.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Trunks would like a word with you.

OK, I miss this one. Even though it's actually a form that gives Trunks more brute force than speed.

And how does it still taking him a minute to get to Buu's house correlate into everything? There is no reason to assuming he was going slower when flying eagerly to fight Buu. ANd he still left Piccolo in the dust like he was nothing.

Originally posted by No End N Site
What way is SS 1 and 2 better than SS3? I am very curious to see. Well they don't drain all your energy in minutes. I guess that's gotta count for something.

All the SSJ talk reminds me of Super Kaioken attack in the otherworld tourney.

Didn't Goku have to race to the Grand Kai's planet, but Grand Kai was much faster than all of them? Someone find that clip...

Not canon, filler.

I think anything moving at those speeds inside an atmosphere would destroy the environment irrevocably...

Immagine if you will, the massive air displacement that would happen... sonic booms of those magnitudes would break apart even meters long, meters wide, solid steel bricks...

Suspension of disbelief is what helps in this case.

Or there is some unknown aspect in their movement which prevents that sort of destruction.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I think anything moving at those speeds inside an atmosphere would destroy the environment irrevocably...

Immagine if you will, the massive air displacement that would happen... sonic booms of those magnitudes would break apart even meters long, meters wide, solid steel bricks...

Very rarely do manga get environmental effects right.


Imagine the wind displaced by someone even going 100mph. The effects and noise would be significant. The whole 'appear behind you unnoticed' thing would never happen.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Not canon, filler.

Filler, yes. Not canon? I'm not so sure. There are several statements where Goku mentions his training in Otherworld.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix

Or there is some unknown aspect in their movement which prevents that sort of destruction.

When I see this, it makes me think of the Flash. How does he save someone at that kind of speed without destroying the person or anything in his path for that matter? Moving at those kinds of speeds would have a dramatic effect.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Filler, yes. Not canon? I'm not so sure. There are several statements where Goku mentions his training in Otherworld.

Fillers makes the story inconsistent and inconsistency is due to different writers. So, you can't use fillers

Originally posted by LLLLLink
When I see this, it makes me think of the Flash. How does he save someone at that kind of speed without destroying the person or anything in his path for that matter? Moving at those kinds of speeds would have a dramatic effect. It's called the Speed Force.

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
Fillers makes the story inconsistent and inconsistency is due to different writers. So, you can't use fillers

I'm so going to use this quote on a different argument concerning comics.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Filler, yes. Not canon? I'm not so sure. There are several statements where Goku mentions his training in Otherworld. He did train in Otherworld. It is where he achieved the SSJ3 form. He however never participated in any Otherworld tournament.

5L, you decree any comic not written by the original writer of a character as being not canon. So... Don't do that.

In absence of an official canon policy or statement, then only the original work, in this case the manga, is canon.

Originally posted by NemeBro
He did train in Otherworld. It is where he achieved the SSJ3 form. He however never participated in any Otherworld tournament.

5L, you decree any comic not written by the original writer of a character as being not canon. So... Don't do that.
I still think that, which is why I sided with this:
Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
Fillers makes the story inconsistent and inconsistency is due to different writers. So, you can't use fillers

Originally posted by NemeBro
No.

Absolutely not.

Raditz being FTL was a dub fabrication, it is not present in the original manga.

To date, the best speed feat in the DBZ manga is Gotenks circling the world a few times in 20+ minutes.

And dodging a set explosion at point blank range, and showing up miles away from it seconds after.

Originally posted by dadudemon
1. Prove that that made him faster.

Because he stated it? That and the fact that he was far more able to keep up with his opponents.

Originally posted by Mr. Rhythmic
Because he stated it? That and the fact that he was far more able to keep up with his opponents.

I still don't see any proof.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I still don't see any proof.

Of what? That Gotenks was just messing around during his flight?

Originally posted by LLLLLink
I still think that, which is why I sided with this: DC and Marvel own the characters, they say who can or cannot make something canon.

They>>>Your stupid opinions.

Originally posted by NemeBro
DC and Marvel own the characters, they say who can or cannot make something canon.

They>>>Your stupid opinions.

Business dealings should have no true authority on canon. No company should be able to speak "ex cathedra" (so to speak) on canonical issues. Original author's work only.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
I'm so going to use this quote on a different argument concerning comics.

You'll look like an idiot if you do.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
You'll look like an idiot if you do.

I guess you should let Kirikaze Fuuma know that you think he is an idiot, don't you?

If Kirikaze thinks the past decades of comics are noncanon fillers then yes he is an idiot, if he doesn't think they are noncanon fillers then he isn't. You can not compare Manga/Anime and Comics when it comes to what's canon. Different writers are canon for comics so long as it's still under the same company and whatnot.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
If Kirikaze thinks the past decades of comics are noncanon fillers then yes he is an idiot, if he doesn't think they are noncanon fillers then he isn't. You can not compare Manga/Anime and Comics when it comes to what's canon. Different writers are canon for comics so long as it's still under the same company and whatnot.

That doesn't make it any less of a bullshit comparison, though.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
That doesn't make it any less of a bullshit comparison, though.

So exactly what do you not agree with exactly?

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Business dealings should have no true authority on canon. No company should be able to speak "ex cathedra" (so to speak) on canonical issues. Original author's work only.

Shared worlds are by design made of multiple author's works, and the original makers of many US comics are long gone (and didn't even include the iconic images of the characters).


There is a difference between shared world and just another author doing stuff, though. With a shared world, the original creators throw the gates open, or are working for a company where it's work-for-hire from the get go.

Don't you think it is gay when someone writes a comic where Supes is killed by Batman, even though you know Bats could never harm Supes? It is that kind of garbage that I hate. But, since it has the "stamp of approval" on it, its canon.

It was that kind of scenario which caused me to be so disgusted with the "canon laws" that everybody uses.

When has Batman ever killed Superman? Superman has always been the better of the two.

IIRC Batman killed Superman in the alternate future using a kryptonite batarang.

Even though the comic books are canon, there are inconsistencies on it especially Superman since there's so many writers wrote a story for Superman. Not only inconsistencies but sometimes bad writing. But I don't want to bring any of those inconsistencies and bad writings here since this thread is not about Comic's inconsistencies.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Don't you think it is gay when someone writes a comic where Supes is killed by Batman, even though you know Bats could never harm Supes? It is that kind of garbage that I hate. But, since it has the "stamp of approval" on it, its canon.

It was that kind of scenario which caused me to be so disgusted with the "canon laws" that everybody uses. That has never happened.

And when a real bad idea happens, there are retcons.

What you think of it does not change its canonicity.

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
IIRC Batman killed Superman in the alternate future using a kryptonite batarang.

Even though the comic books are canon, there are inconsistencies on it especially Superman since there's so many writers wrote a story for Superman. Not only inconsistencies but sometimes bad writing. But I don't want to bring any of those inconsistencies and bad writings here since this thread is not about Comic's inconsistencies.

1. Alternate Universe is already noncanon.
2. Even if Batman did hit Superman with a K-Batarang he wouldn't die
3. Superman could dodge, shoot or crush the batarang with his hand.

Or use his anti-Kryptonite Batarang vision.

No, Batman used a kryptonite ring, then killed him. Bat-a-rang was a different one, and kryptonite in the coffee is a different one still.

Also, this.

uklSyanOQfY


/batman and supes talk

The animated series? lol Again, you're using non-canon stuff.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
When has Batman ever killed Superman? Superman has always been the better of the two.

That's too bold of a statement.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I still don't see any proof.

Proof=Buu Saga

Originally posted by No End N Site
And I don't ever remember him sayin' that the anime was totally inadmissible and failed top even closely resemble his original work.

It's hard to say. The anime helps clarify some things better than the manga, but sometimes creates the issue of inconsistency.

For example, the filler shows Eighter's creator during the Red Ribbon Army Saga, and yet Dr. Gero is later said to be the one responsible. For the time, it added clarification, but it was a door open in the manga for a reason.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
The animated series? lol Again, you're using non-canon stuff.

No. There's a scene about that in comic book too.

Wa0vIZwmsmY

My bad, it's kryptonite ring actually. :P

Originally posted by Mr. Rhythmic
That's too bold of a statement.

Elaborate.

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
No. There's a scene about that in comic book too.

Wa0vIZwmsmY

My bad, it's kryptonite ring actually. :P

Precrisis is noncanon, it's been retconned for it's stupidity.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
No, Batman used a kryptonite ring, then killed him. Bat-a-rang was a different one, and kryptonite in the coffee is a different one still.

Also, this.

uklSyanOQfY


/batman and supes talk

Noncanon, even if he tried that in the comics he would've got owned himself.

Originally posted by Mr. Rhythmic
That's too bold of a statement. Superman is above Batman in almost everything, even willpower.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Superman is above Batman in almost everything, even willpower.

Batman is better at deductive reasoning and psychology

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Precrisis is noncanon, it's been retconned for it's stupidity.

Pre Crisis took place during DC Comic's publishing history prior to 1986. But the scan from that video was taken from Superman annual #3 (1991).

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Batman is better at deductive reasoning and psychology Look up the word "almost" for me Endless Mike, if you would?

EfBT6YHHsmg
Inertia control leaves something to be desired, based on that landing.

Originally posted by Mr. Rhythmic
Because he stated it?

Originally posted by dadudemon
I still don't see any proof.

Originally posted by Mr. Rhythmic
Proof=Buu Saga

Originally posted by dadudemon
I still don't see any proof.

Originally posted by dadudemon


Then that's your problem, because I gave you your proof. Watch the Majin Buu Saga. In fact, watch Kid Buu as well. There are plenty of moments showing increased speed. Punches Goku couldn't dodge prior were immediately simple.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Elaborate.

Superman is stronger, faster, more powerful (which is an understatement), and has a better set of morals.
Batman is more willing to break the law when necessary, meaner, smarter, lacks weaknesses Clark has, and more prepared for anything to the point in which he can be considered unbeatable (see Tower of Babel).

They both have superior qualities than the other, which can trade off during situations.
Batman can't defeat Darkseid, and Superman can't solve a case quick enough to save lives. Both have been proven.

Originally posted by Mr. Rhythmic
Superman is stronger, faster, more powerful (which is an understatement), and has a better set of morals.
Batman is more willing to break the law when necessary, meaner, smarter, lacks weaknesses Clark has, and more prepared for anything to the point in which he can be considered unbeatable (see Tower of Babel).

They both have superior qualities than the other, which can trade off during situations.
Batman can't defeat Darkseid, and Superman can't solve a case quick enough to save lives. Both have been proven.

Smarter is debatable.

Being meaner doesn't really mean anything, not necessarily good or bad but I can guarantee you that people would be more wary of pissing off Superman than Batman.

Yeah Bruce has weaknesses that Superman doesn't have like human durability, human speed, the need to eat, sleep and breathe.

Breaking the law is also not necessary for Superman to get the job done.

As you can clearly see, getting the canon out of comics/manga in comparison to the anime/cartoon is about as retarded as Zelda continuity.

Also, Goku has higher morality than Bats or Supes.

No he doesn't.

Originally posted by Mr. Rhythmic
Then that's your problem, because I gave you your proof.


No you didn't. You didn't give me anything except repeating yourself.

I see no scans with him saying that.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
As you can clearly see, getting the canon out of comics/manga in comparison to the anime/cartoon is about as retarded as Zelda continuity.

Also, Goku has higher morality than Bats or Supes.

Err... let's not make a debate about Goku vs Superman here. OK? ^^;;

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Smarter is debatable.

Being meaner doesn't really mean anything, not necessarily good or bad but I can guarantee you that people would be more wary of pissing off Superman than Batman.

Yeah Bruce has weaknesses that Superman doesn't have like human durability, human speed, the need to eat, sleep and breathe.

Breaking the law is also not necessary for Superman to get the job done.


Superman needs to breathe, too, I thought. (Tries to remember a comic, PC.)

Originally posted by LLLLLink


Also, Goku has higher morality than Bats or Supes.

No he doesn't...

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
No he doesn't...

Proof please. Has Superman ever been mind controlled for evil or something like that? At the very least, Goku has the Flying Nimbus as proof of pure-heartedness.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Proof please. Has Superman ever been mind controlled for evil or something like that? At the very least, Goku has the Flying Nimbus as proof of pure-heartedness. You act like Clark couldn't ride on Nimbus. Or that Gokou wouldn't be able to be controlled by Poison Ivy's powers. Or be mind controlled. They are pretty much equal when it comes to this. Which is kind of strange for Gokou since he also has the saiyan lust for fighting.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Proof please. Has Superman ever been mind controlled for evil or something like that? At the very least, Goku has the Flying Nimbus as proof of pure-heartedness.
Yet he gave a senzu bean to Cell. Batman and Supes would never do that if they were in his shoes.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Proof please. Has Superman ever been mind controlled for evil or something like that? At the very least, Goku has the Flying Nimbus as proof of pure-heartedness.

Being mind controlled has nothing to do with morals. Look at what Superman does day in and day out he is absolutely pure of heart. His no kill policy, the fact that he has died for Earth, the fact that he would do anything to protect one life. Yes he has been mind controlled but that doesn't mean anything against his heart.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Being mind controlled has nothing to do with morals. Look at what Superman does day in and day out he is absolutely pure of heart. His no kill policy, the fact that he has died for Earth, the fact that he would do anything to protect one life. Yes he has been mind controlled but that doesn't mean anything against his heart.

If Supes had the darkness in his heart pulled out by Babidi's magic, would he turn? Goku wasn't even a candidate for it.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
If Supes had the darkness in his heart pulled out by Babidi's magic, would he turn? Goku wasn't even a candidate for it.

There is no Darkness in Superman's heart.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
There is no Darkness in Superman's heart.

Red(?) Kryptonite.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Red(?) Kryptonite.

Red Kryptonite in Smallville does not do the same in the comics.

Well, does Supes have any feats of purity like Goku?

(Perhaps this needs to be in another thread...)

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Well, does Supes have any feats of purity like Goku?

(Perhaps this needs to be in another thread...)

I can get examples and scans later tonight or tomorrow when my resident Superman expert gets back.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
I can get examples and scans later tonight or tomorrow when my resident Superman expert gets back.

Kk.

Superman's soul was so pure that it actually burned demons that got too close to it. I don't know if that counts.

Superman doesn't need to breathe in space, or else he has insane lung capacity, given that he once engaged in battle for days on end in space with no breathing apparatus... they vary it, tbh.

either way, he can spend days in space without needing to inhale.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Kk.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/AOS587-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/AOS587-2.jpg

Satannus is a prince in Hell and even he got burned by the soul of Superman.

I see someone posted the anime scene of Gotenks flying around the earth. Please keep in mind that

A. The anime is non-canon

B. In that scene you can see the earth visibly rotating, meaning it would have taken hours. Of course this is impossible due to the fact that the fusion only lasts 30 minutes, which makes the entire scene worthless. This brings us back to A.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Well, does Supes have any feats of purity like Goku?

(Perhaps this needs to be in another thread...) When Batman was reduced to a gibbering wreck and driven insane from the memories of his hundreds of deaths and torture at the hands of Emperor Joker, Superman showed absolutely no hesitation in having Spectre literally place Batman's tormented memories inside of him, a process that could have mentally and emotionally crippled Clark.

Granted Clark was fine because his willpower is so immensely godlike, but still.

Oh and **** Squirrel Girl.

Also he stood up to Asmodel's Light of Heaven which would destroy the soul of anyone if it wasn't pure

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I see someone posted the anime scene of Gotenks flying around the earth. Please keep in mind that

A. The anime is non-canon

B. In that scene you can see the earth visibly rotating, meaning it would have taken hours. Of course this is impossible due to the fact that the fusion only lasts 30 minutes, which makes the entire scene worthless. This brings us back to A.


Good point. I didn't catch that.


Scene has to be thrown out.





But, on that same note, the manga shows the "flown" lines around earth to be all at once without the Earth blurring/moving, at all (to the Eye). That's much faster than the speed of light. Impossible to tell.


So, canon, Gotenks is many times faster than the speed of light. I concede the argument. Now don't rub it in too much.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I see someone posted the anime scene of Gotenks flying around the earth. Please keep in mind that

The anime is non-canon



Not really. Anime can be considered canon since anime "fill out" the plot of the Dragon Ball comic with many extended sequences. Besides, like No End N site said, there were many things akira Toriyama forgot to explain in the manga, so he decided to put them in the anime. So, anime is the second highest level of canon in Dragon Ball series.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Good point. I didn't catch that.


Scene has to be thrown out.





But, on that same note, the manga shows the "flown" lines around earth to be all at once without the Earth blurring/moving, at all (to the Eye). That's much faster than the speed of light. Impossible to tell.


So, canon, Gotenks is many times faster than the speed of light. I concede the argument. Now don't rub it in too much.

Um, I don't follow your logic here. All it shows is trails over a time-lapse amount (he had 29 minutes as after the end Piccolo said he had one minute remaining in the fusion, and it took him nearly that long to reach Buu's house).

And the anime is not canon at all, Toriyama did not contribute to it directly at all, in fact in interviews it's said that he was often surprised at what the anime writers decided to do. In absence of an official canon policy, only the original work (aka the manga) is canon. The anime is merely an adaptation based on the original and not canon at all. Not to mention they're redoing the anime and removing most of the fillers.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Um, I don't follow your logic here. All it shows is trails over a time-lapse amount (he had 29 minutes as after the end Piccolo said he had one minute remaining in the fusion, and it took him nearly that long to reach Buu's house).

No time lapse, but energy lines are all over the Earth. Earth looks exactly the same, no rotation, but all those lines are all over the Earth.

Therefore, he traveled all that time in in a virtual instant, not for a long time. Remember, there's no other interpretation than that because the Earth has no blurring.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
And the anime is not canon at all, Toriyama did not contribute to it directly at all, in fact in interviews it's said that he was often surprised at what the anime writers decided to do. In absence of an official canon policy, only the original work (aka the manga) is canon. The anime is merely an adaptation based on the original and not canon at all. Not to mention they're redoing the anime and removing most of the fillers.

I agree. Manga shows bunches of lines, Earth was sitting still, I was wrong, so I admitted it. That's where I was coming from. If you saw earlier in the thread, I debunked the idea that the anime was faster than light. I was a "sublighter". But, then, you brought up a good point that I didn't even think about: the Earth rotates in the anime, but it doesn't in the manga.

Probably because instead of being animated it is a single page.

I'm not sure if it matters at all, but in the Gotenks flight scene in the anime all you see are clouds moving around the earth, not actual continents or islands. I just though that I'd make that clear.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No time lapse, but energy lines are all over the Earth. Earth looks exactly the same, no rotation, but all those lines are all over the Earth.

Therefore, he traveled all that time in in a virtual instant, not for a long time. Remember, there's no other interpretation than that because the Earth has no blurring.

It's a manga panel. How is it supposed to show animation? You realize there is such a thing as time lapse in sequential art, right?





That makes no sense at all.



Um, no, we see the whole planet rotating. There are no clouds moving independently from the surface of the planet itself.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Um, no, we see the whole planet rotating. There are no clouds moving independently from the surface of the planet itself.

So, what you're saying is that there is not one piece of landmass on the entire planet. Intelligent.

If the planet made any sort of rotation, we would have been able to see land coming around as the planet rotated. However, all that was seen is clouds moving. No land came into view at any point. So either:

A) The clouds were moving, not the planet,

or,

B) There is no landmass on Earth.

Take your pick.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Probably because instead of being animated it is a single page.

You pointed out what I've already stated and getting at.

In case you did not know what EndlessMike and I were discussing:

In the anime, the Earth is spinning.


In the Manga, it shows the lines, all at once, on an unspun Earth. A major speed difference and something stringent people will not be able to get around.


Originally posted by Endless Mike
It's a manga panel. How is it supposed to show animation? You realize there is such a thing as time lapse in sequential art, right?

It doesn't matter as there's nothing saying that what he did, just then, was all at once, was over a time period, etc. etc.


What we DO have is an Earth has his travel lines, all at once, with no sign of movement by the planet.

You can add to that in anyway you want, but it is still speculation: the only way to interpret it exactly, without being wrong, is infinite velocity or that he flew around the Earth so fast that the change in motion of the Earth is not observable.





Originally posted by Endless Mike
That makes no sense at all.

Odd since it was your idea to begin with.


The Earth moved in the anime, the Earth didn't move in the manga.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
So, what you're saying is that there is not one piece of landmass on the entire planet. Intelligent.

No, I'm saying that we can see the entire planet rotating at the same velocity.



Or

C. The clouds were fully covering the planet as it was rotating.

What you're proposing is some kind of unheard-of super wind that blows every cloud on earth at the exact same speed in the exact same direction at the same time, and blows them so fast they would be beyond the speed of any hurricane or tornado ever recorded. I certainly didn't see any evidence of that anywhere.



That makes no sense at all. Using this logic every time someone uses a flurry of punches it means they actually grew a dozen arms.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
No, I'm saying that we can see the entire planet rotating at the same velocity.

Then explain the lack of landmass.



Originally posted by Endless Mike

C. The clouds were fully covering the planet as it was rotating.

What you're proposing is some kind of unheard-of super wind that blows every cloud on earth at the exact same speed in the exact same direction at the same time, and blows them so fast they would be beyond the speed of any hurricane or tornado ever recorded. I certainly didn't see any evidence of that anywhere.


I most certainly did not propose anything like that. I merely think that your explanation was insufficient to explain what was happening.
You know full-well that clouds were not covering the entire planet because we can see the ocean through gaps in the clouds. On top of that, if you believe that the earth was rotating as fast as the video portrayed clouds moving, then much more time than 30 minutes would have passed, and their fusion would have expired. But, we know this didn't happen, and therefore the explanation of the earth rotating is probably wrong.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Then explain the lack of landmass.

It was all covered by clouds.



Yes you did. It's implied by your explanation.



Obviously the earth was rotating, there's no other way to interpret the scene. If you think those blue gaps were ocean, then they were moving at the same speed as the clouds, meaning the planet was rotating. The white bits (clouds) were not moving independently from the blue bits (ocean), which would be the case if it were just the clouds moving. The entire point is the anime is non-canon and thus unreliable, and it has mistakes like this that prove it can't be used.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
It was all covered by clouds.


No, it wasn't.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Yes you did. It's implied by your explanation.

There is a difference between implying and proposing, and I did not propose anything of the sort. Also, you already know for sure by my last statement that I don't think that, so your argument is moot.


Originally posted by Endless Mike

Obviously the earth was rotating, there's no other way to interpret the scene. If you think those blue gaps were ocean, then they were moving at the same speed as the clouds, meaning the planet was rotating.

So, you really do think that there is no landmass on the earth...


Originally posted by Endless Mike

The white bits (clouds) were not moving independently from the blue bits (ocean), which would be the case if it were just the clouds moving. The entire point is the anime is non-canon and thus unreliable, and it has mistakes like this that prove it can't be used.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
No, it wasn't.

You yourself admit there's no visible land. Unless you think DBZ earth is all water now.



Then explain how your argument can work without implying that as a consequence.



No, I think it was covered by the clouds, like I just said. Can't you read?



I'm not seeing a rebuttal here.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You yourself admit there's no visible land. Unless you think DBZ earth is all water now.


http://www.toy-tma.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Dragonball-Z-Earth-Map-580x442.png


As you can see, in DBZ, the landmass on earth is basically one giant super-continent similar to the "pangea" idea. If this is the case, then all of the land could be on one side of the planet while the rest of the earth is water.
Your move.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Then explain how your argument can work without implying that as a consequence.

The argument is moot.


Originally posted by Endless Mike

No, I think it was covered by the clouds, like I just said. Can't you read?

And you are wrong. Present a new idea, please.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

I'm not seeing a rebuttal here.

Look harder.

1. First of all, that's an entire world map, not a half of the world map. Therefore what you see in that map covers the entire planet.

2. So you retract it then?

3. WTF are you talking about? You are making less and less sense here.

4. All you did was post a smiley. You realize that you have no argument, right?

Let's go over this again: You're claiming that only the clouds were moving in that sequence, not the planet itself. I pointed out that if this were true it would imply a wind blowing them around the planet all at the same speed and direction at a speed higher than any hurricane or tornado ever. You ignored this. I then noted that the blue you can see between the clouds is likely the ocean, and it is also moving directly in pace with the clouds, meaning that the entire planet is turning.

Now I agree with one thing, no one in DBZ can FLY at the speed of light but combat, far above it.

Dragonball Z flight is crap but their short burst of speed during combat is so much more.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
1. First of all, that's an entire world map, not a half of the world map. Therefore what you see in that map covers the entire planet.

2. So you retract it then?

3. WTF are you talking about? You are making less and less sense here.

4. All you did was post a smiley. You realize that you have no argument, right?

Let's go over this again: You're claiming that only the clouds were moving in that sequence, not the planet itself. I pointed out that if this were true it would imply a wind blowing them around the planet all at the same speed and direction at a speed higher than any hurricane or tornado ever. You ignored this. I then noted that the blue you can see between the clouds is likely the ocean, and it is also moving directly in pace with the clouds, meaning that the entire planet is turning.

Wow, there is so much to facepalm over in your post, but I'll just say this: "Explain the lack of landmass." That is my argument.
If you disagree with my thought, then show me where the land is underneath all of the clouds.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Wow, there is so much to facepalm over in your post, but I'll just say this: "Explain the lack of landmass." That is my argument.
If you disagree with my thought, then show me where the land is underneath all of the clouds.

How can I show it to you if it's underneath the clouds

Are you seriously claiming that there is no land on the planet?

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Smarter is debatable.

not really.




But Clark WON'T get pissed. Batman's willing to get his hands dirty.




And yet with those limitations he's STILL caught up with the rest of the JLA.




Sometimes it is, actually. There is an 80s comic lying around somewhere in my house where Superman calls upon Batman to help him stop Luthor because the level of spying broke almost every law that wasn't murder.