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Congress clears historic health care bill 219-212


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100322/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_overhaul

It's a watered down compromise and costs way too much money. I still fail to see how this will REDUCE the deficit.


It doesn't satisfy the libtards or the conservatards.

And the moderates are still facepalming.

The only conglomerate of people it will satisfy will be the health insurance companies who knew from the very beginning that Congress would put more $-signs inside their eyes. The sickening thing was that they lobbied extremely hard against some of the reforms that vaguely represented universal health care (i.e. the public option). Then, the whole charade of the Stupak amendment just made this one mime show too many

Cool, America sucks more then it did before.

i know someone that will actually benefit from this in a huge way, so as cold as it sounds, i really don't care about all the complaints.

Hooray a piece of historic legislation. Historians will best remember it for accomplishing basically nothing!

It's impossible to get anywhere when we're warring with ourselves. I mean honestly, republicans and democrats have been fighting for a year over something that doesn't even matter that much.

Originally posted by Amazing Vrayo!!
It's impossible to get anywhere when we're warring with ourselves. I mean honestly, republicans and democrats have been fighting for a year over something that doesn't even matter that much. "A year"? Just how long have you been paying attention for?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
"A year"? Just how long have you been paying attention for? i dunno, but im pretty sure that that's when the 1000 page (*gasp* a thousand pages...has that happened before?!) bill was released.

This bill does a lot of amazing things. Rock on America!

I am so proud.

The US National Debt is approaching 13 trillion dollars! Entitlement programs - Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security - amount to 50+ trillion dollars. (A figure conveniently overlooked by the media and Obama Administration.) And now... we seemingly have a new entitlement program: Health Care! How are we going to pay for this?

Meanwhile, the US Government continues to borrow money from China and Japan, amongst other countries, and the FED continues to print fiat money (while American citizens and businesses are taxed to oblivion). On top of that, the US has a trade deficit - meaning, the US imports more than it exports. This does not strengthen the US dollar and/or the US economy, and it certainly does not create jobs. It only ensures chaos, poverty and dependence on government. This is a mathematical fact.

Our country is in such dire shape, that countries like China, Singapore and Saudi Arabia are opting for a new world reserve currency! Reports have even circulated over the US loosing it's AAA credit score. These are screaming indicators of a major storm brewing.


V
V
V
V


eZA0qNsf4m0

National Inflation Association

^
^
^
FAIL

How so, Ordo?

Originally posted by Ordo
This bill does a lot of amazing things. Rock on America!

I am so proud.

Proud of slavery, huh...,?communist bastard.

Originally posted by Ordo
Suck on that you Christian capitalist pigs!

Originally posted by ushomefree
How so, Ordo?

here is a series of graphs disproving your point in a lame, post-nothing-but-a-link post

Originally posted by Ordo
This bill does a lot of amazing things. Rock on America!

I am so proud.

South Carolina, Nebraska, Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, Michigan, Colorado, Pennsylvania, Utah, Washington, Idaho, South Dakota and Florida file lawsuits against healthcare bill.

I am so proud.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I am so proud.

I agree. Nothing is more importnat than to be prouder of reactionary litigation based on non-understanding of American law, which has been clearly defined in this area for over 200 years. Good luck overturning that.

Think of all the money this over-litigation will cost the taxpayers, hitting them from both the state (plantiff) and federal (defendant) sides. I thought we were against wasteful litigation that simply drives up costs for the taxpayers...

Originally posted by Ordo
I agree. Nothing is more importnat than to be prouder of reactionary litigation based on non-understanding of American law.

Think of all the money this over-litigation will cost the taxpayers, hitting them from both the state (plantiff) and federal (defendant) sides.

Well, sense you are so smart, why don't you save the world?

You missed the the significance of states refusing to implement the healthcare bill.

I'm working on it.

And you miss the points of:
*supremacy clause (federal law superceeding state law).
*noncompliance warrants cuts from federal funding (even Republicans wont break their hold on the teet of Medicaid and Medicare)

Originally posted by Ordo
I'm working on it.

And you miss the points of:
*supremacy clause (federal law superceeding state law).
*noncompliance warrants cuts from federal funding (even Republicans wont break their hold on the teet of Medicaid and Medicare)

Commerce clause:

I just don't want to see an 1861.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Well, sense you are so smart, why don't you save the world?

Maybe the world doesn't want to be saved.

*puts on sunglasses*
*rides off into the night*


And actually that's a legitiamte answer. Unless you rule the world being a genius or having all the answers means that the first step is getting people to support you. If the truth is unpopular you need something more than that.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Commerce clause:

"The Supreme Court has long allowed Congress to regulate and prohibit all sorts of "economic" activities that are not, strictly speaking, commerce. The key is that those activities substantially affect interstate commerce." ~Washington Post

The government already regulates health insurance benefits and standards throuhg ERISA, COBRA, and HIPPA.

Regardless, "any state power to "nullify" unconstitutional federal laws has long been rejected." ~WashPo

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I just don't want to see an 1861.

Well, the 'tards who are doing this are already comparing health care reform to Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854.

You're welcome to go join the neo-Confederacy though.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Maybe the world doesn't want to be saved.

*puts on sunglasses*
*rides off into the night*


And actually that's a legitiamte answer. Unless you rule the world being a genius or having all the answers means that the first step is getting people to support you. If the truth is unpopular you need something more than that.


It was sarcasm.

Originally posted by Ordo
"The Supreme Court has long allowed Congress to regulate and prohibit all sorts of "economic" activities that are not, strictly speaking, commerce. The key is that those activities substantially affect interstate commerce." ~Washington Post

The government already regulates health insurance benefits and standards throuhg ERISA, COBRA, and HIPPA.



Well, the 'tards who are doing this are already comparing health care reform to Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854.

You're welcome to go join the neo-Confederacy though.

Have you already joined the neo-union? Referring to people with real objections as tards is really enlightened. However, that seems to be typical of the new democrats.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Have you already joined the neo-union? Referring to people with real objections as tards is really enlightened. However, that seems to be typical of the new democrats.

There is the difference between having (generally uninformed) objections and calling the bill the "apocalypse," comparing it to the start of the American Civil War, and intentially misrepresenting established law to pander to your (uninformed) base.

Originally posted by Ordo
There is the difference between having (generally uninformed) objections and calling the bill the "apocalypse," comparing it to the start of the American Civil War, and intentially misrepresenting established law to pander to your (uninformed) base.

That is a reasonable point. However, the democrats have not used that way of thinking for 9 years now. The truth is the democrats are getting back what they served to the republicans. Therefore, all is fair is love, war and politics?

How's that? The democrats actually voted for legislated brought up by the republicans when dems were in the minority. The republicans have not, and will not.

Originally posted by BackFire
How's that? The democrats actually voted for legislated brought up by the republicans when dems were in the minority. The republicans have not, and will not.

That is selective memory, but that's not the point I was getting at. Hate is what is at the core of a bigger problem. Hate has spread life a virus, and I hope that we are not seeing a repeat of history.

It's not selective memory. It's fact. Democrats voted for some things. Republicans have voted for almost nothing. Even after Obama and the democrats make changes to legislation based on complaints of the republicans, they still refuse to vote for it. They did this for the health care bill. Republicans said they couldn't vote for it because of so and so. The dems then put what the republicans wanted in the bill, and then they still refuse to vote for it. And then they complain about a lack of compromise. Say what you will about the democrats, but they did, factually, compromise when they were not in power. They voted for things they were not crazy about and met republicans half way on some things.

Originally posted by BackFire
It's not selective memory. It's fact. Democrats voted for some things. Republicans have voted for almost nothing. Even after Obama and the democrats make changes to legislation based on complaints of the republicans, they still refuse to vote for it. They did this for the health care bill. Republicans said they couldn't vote for it because of so and so. The dems then put what the republicans wanted in the bill, and then they still refuse to vote for it. And then they complain about a lack of compromise. Say what you will about the democrats, but they did, factually, compromise when they were not in power. They voted for things they were not crazy about and met republicans half way on some things.

Wow! the demarcates are as pure as the driven snow, and have worked so hard to give the evil republicans everything they wanted.

Were was you 5 years ago?

Lazy hyperbole right there. Actually has nothing to do with the fact that I stated and doesn't retort a thing. They voted for some things. The republicans have not. Even after compromise.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Wow! the demarcates are as pure as the driven snow, and have worked so hard to give the evil republicans everything they wanted.

Were was you 5 years ago?

Selective memory? Really? Members on both sies have always crossed party lines.

Remeber John McCain...the "maverick" who always crossed lines on lots of issues? Now the same guy says "There will be no cooperation for the rest of the year" on ANY issue. Republicans now claim you need 60 votes for passage in the senate, and they have used the filibuster more times THIS YEAR than throughout the entire two decades of the civil rights movement combined. Single Republicans hold dozens of nominees in a holding pattern.

You want to talk about Hate? Only ONE side of this debate is calling the other socialist, communist, un-american, baby-killing, constitution shreadding n*ggers and f*ggots. Only one side is calling this an "apocalypse" (Bohener and Steele), calling Obama Hitler, is pro-secessionist, and claming outrageous things like dems are trying to kill people. Public death threats are comming from one side, the only side with rhetoric so over the top that they have no choice to continue it. Its pretty hard to negotiate killing Grandma with black Hitler.

btw...thats the side you're on...the one threatening segregation (re: Rick Perry).

Not that there haven't been partisan votes before...but damn you have NO memory.

Originally posted by BackFire
Lazy hyperbole right there. Actually has nothing to do with the fact that I stated and doesn't retort a thing. They voted for some things. The republicans have not. Even after compromise.

Ok. They think it's shit. So, you want them to vote for shit?

shakya...

Originally posted by Ordo
...btw...thats the side you're on...the one threatening segregation (re: Rick Perry).

Not that there haven't been partisan votes before...but damn you have NO memory.

I'm not on any side. I have not, at any point in this conversation said what my "side" is. It seems that you have placed me on one side because of Hate. All you have done is proved my point.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
shakya...

If they think it's shit then they think their own ideas are shit, since the bill implemented a number of them. Ideas they complained were being ignored. Then they got put into the bill, and they still refused to vote or offer any particularly meaningful or intelligent criticism or alternatives. It's easy to say something is bad when you don't offer any serious alternative. Which is what they're doing.

Their only serious alternative is to offer out of state options. Great. So someone who's sick with cancer in Colorado and has gotten turned down by all insurance companies based in Colorado can now also get turned down by all the insurance companies in Minnesota and Nevada, how helpful.

Originally posted by BackFire
If they think it's shit then they think their own ideas are shit, since the bill implemented a number of them. Ideas they complained were being ignored. Then they got put into the bill, and they still refused to vote or offer any particularly meaningful or intelligent criticism or alternatives. It's easy to say something is bad when you don't offer any serious alternative. Which is what they're doing.

Their only serious alternative is to offer out of state options. Great. So someone who's sick with cancer in Colorado and has gotten turned down by all insurance companies based in Colorado can now also get turned down by all the insurance companies in Minnesota and Nevada, how helpful.

I take it that this is just a general commit to the thread and not a reply to my post.

Sure okay. Despite the fact that it directly retorts your last post. Have fun.

Originally posted by BackFire
Sure okay. Despite the fact that it directly retorts your last post. Have fun.

Sorry, but we are not communication here. What does that have to do with 13 states filling lawsuits against the healthcare bill?

US National Dept Clock

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Ok. They think it's shit. So, you want them to vote for shit?

Originally posted by BackFire
If they think it's shit then they think their own ideas are shit, since the bill implemented a number of them. Ideas they complained were being ignored. Then they got put into the bill, and they still refused to vote or offer any particularly meaningful or intelligent criticism or alternatives. It's easy to say something is bad when you don't offer any serious alternative. Which is what they're doing.

Their only serious alternative is to offer out of state options. Great. So someone who's sick with cancer in Colorado and has gotten turned down by all insurance companies based in Colorado can now also get turned down by all the insurance companies in Minnesota and Nevada, how helpful.

Do you see how these two posts are related, now?

!

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I'm not on any side. I have not, at any point in this conversation said what my "side" is. It seems that you have placed me on one side because of Hate. All you have done is proved my point.

Hahahaha, you are one of the most biased posters on this forum. You are a one to one translation of Cartman's "Just asking questions" to real life.

Originally posted by BackFire
Do you see how these two posts are related, now?

The new democrats are not trustworthy. So, when they say that they put republican ideas into the bill, it turns out they didn't.

Now, don't be confused. The republicans are not trustworthy ether.

saying "they must be lying because I think they are liars" is a really retarded arguement.

Especially when there are facts that explicitly state the obvious. There are over 200 Republican amendments, the bill has a lot of key similarities to the Republican Massachusetts plan, and the reconciliation bill has specific republican requests from the summit, including rasing medicare reimbursement rates to doctors, somethign that actually INCREASED the cost of the bill.

Sorry, you lose.

Originally posted by Ordo
saying "they must be lying because I think they are liars" is a really retarded arguement.

Especially when there are facts that explicitly state the obvious. There are over 200 Republican amendments, the bill has a lot of key similarities to the Republican Massachusetts plan, and the reconciliation bill has specific republican requests from the summit, including rasing medicare reimbursement rates to doctors, somethign that actually INCREASED the cost of the bill.

Sorry, you lose.

Again the R word from a democrat.

Originally posted by ushomefree
US National Dept Clock

Who cares about the debt?

WE HAVE HEALTHCARE NOW! WOOO!

Yep... it's pretty sad. Who cares about the future of our country and future generations?

im sure god will save us

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Again the R word from a democrat.

1. It is apt and used in a proper context.

2. Am I a democrat?

Lets not turn the discussion away from your irrational arguments.

Originally posted by ushomefree
US National Dept Clock

I wish there was a clock showing what amount is from administrations when you did not care.

Originally posted by Ordo
I wish there was a clock showing what amount is from Republican administrations when you did not care.

how dare you question the over-inflated spending of neo-conservatives!

don't you know they are the only ones taxing you into the poor house to stop Communists from taking control of the government and taking your money for foolish things, like your own health?

Originally posted by ushomefree
Yep... it's pretty sad. Who cares about the future of our country and future generations?

We can just blame it on George Bush.

right, because all American economic problems go back, roughly, 10 years

under Clinton there was no economic inequality. period. /fact.

The only thing I have read on is this:

Hgk76AKHzfc

WTF?

Liberals are like real life trolls.

Trolls that improve your standard of living.

This opposed to the "HELL NO!" trolls, the "Apocalypse" trolls, or the "let me make up facts" trolls.

Originally posted by Impediment
WTF?

Your avatar is reminding me that I need to study for my exam. fracking PQ interval!

PQ Interval? What does that mean?

It means I want to do your wife.

How big are you? She doesn't like big meat in her dumper, if you get my drift. She might just have a BM. (Yeah, I admit. I'm average.)

Vag? Yeah. She can take it.

I want it all. She can handle it.

Lotsa Tequila Blanco.

Don't forget the salt.

She just might lick it off of your..........


Yeah.

I'm coming over now.

Easy killer... no need for shots below the belt. Let's be civil, please. Honestly.



What I don't understand is this: die-hard Obama supporters, never supported Bush! And yet, they admire and trust Obama. The irony is... Obama supports the same foreign/domestic and fiscal policies that Bush embraced - aside from a few minor differences. And Obama takes things to the extreme - George Bush 2.0 (as I call him)! Heck... Obama just extended the Patriot Act and sent additional troops to Afghanistan! It leads one to wonder what people base their opinion's on. The point is, politicians today, say what needs to be said in order to get elected. Once voted into office, they maintain the status quo, while Americans get screwed. This will not fly much longer, as history shows - backed against a corner (so to speak) the masses always rise! If I had to point the finger at any member of Congress to run for President of the United States in 2012... it would be Ron Paul. Never mind what the man has said; his voting record speaks for itself.

Consider this:

G7d_e9lrcZ8

Originally posted by Ordo
Trolls that improve your standard of living.

This opposed to the "HELL NO!" trolls, the "Apocalypse" trolls, or the "let me make up facts" trolls.



Your avatar is reminding me that I need to study for my exam. fracking PQ interval!

How did they improve my standard of living?

Originally posted by Ordo
1. It is apt and used in a proper context.
...

Wow! You didn't get that reference. Never mind then.

Wow. This thread went into a completely wild direction.

Makes my day happy

Originally posted by ushomefree
Easy killer... no need for shots below the belt. Let's be civil, please. Honestly.

Civil? That was like the most civil comment I've made in this thread. Geez, grow some skin.


Originally posted by ushomefree
What I don't understand is this: die-hard Obama supporters, never supported Bush! And yet, they admire and trust Obama. The irony is... Obama supports the same foreign/domestic and fiscal policies that Bush embraced - aside from a few minor differences.

Easy. I didn't support Bush because he was an idiot who ignored our problems while creating new ones.

Lets examin your aspirious claims.

Foreign:
Obama has reached out to Muslims as opposed to demonizing them.
Obama has placed much more effort on international cooperation as opposed to "with us or against us."
Obama is actually fighting the Taliban/AlQueda in Afghanistan, as opposed to ignoring it.
Obama is actually ending the war in Iraq, as opposed to escalating it.

Domestic:
Obama is practical as opposed to ideological
Obama's tax cuts have emphasized the middle class as opposed to the top 5%.
Obama has actually tackled tough reform issues, like health care, that disporportionately affect the middle class.
Obama is at least trying to close Gitmo.
Obama has increased federal funding for science, stem cells.
Obama can complete a full sentance containing more than three words.

Thats a lot of difference to me.

Originally posted by ushomefree
This will not fly much longer, as history shows - backed against a corner (so to speak) the masses always rise! If I had to point the finger at any member of Congress to run for President of the United States in 2012... it would be Ron Paul. Never mind what the man has said; his voting record speaks for itself.

Such shocking analysis! How could anyone be so brilliant as to pick the straw-poll-winning libertarian leader who is against the very idea of government to be the candidate of a bunch of people who *gasp* HATE GOVERNMENT! You should really be paid for this.

And by the way, a bunch of dumb hicks holding signs and nooses aren't a mass, they're a mob who has invented a corner so they can be dicks about it. You lost. When you're 23% of America and hyperbolically demonize everyone who doesn't agree with you...you're not going far. Never have and never will.

Originally posted by KidRock
How did they improve my standard of living?

See above.


Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Wow! You didn't get that reference. Never mind then.

I did, I just refused to acknowledge it.

dur
Edit - Sorry, didn't mean to post here.

Why do people in your view "hate" government, aside from the Constitution being ripped to threads?



What are you talking about?

Originally posted by Ordo
...I did, I just refused to acknowledge it.

That just makes it worse.

Originally posted by Ordo

Easy. I didn't support Bush because he was an idiot who ignored our problems while creating new ones.

Lets examin your aspirious claims.

Foreign:
Obama has reached out to Muslims as opposed to demonizing them.
Obama has placed much more effort on international cooperation as opposed to "with us or against us."
Obama is actually fighting the Taliban/AlQueda in Afghanistan, as opposed to ignoring it.
Obama is actually ending the war in Iraq, as opposed to escalating it.

Domestic:
Obama is practical as opposed to ideological
Obama's tax cuts have emphasized the middle class as opposed to the top 5%.
Obama has actually tackled tough reform issues, like health care, that disporportionately affect the middle class.
Obama is at least trying to close Gitmo.
Obama has increased federal funding for science, stem cells.
Obama can complete a full sentance containing more than three words.

Thats a lot of difference to me.



.

I'm a liberal (more of a socialist side, and if people want to make fun of that they'd better be able to back it up), but Obama does not appeal to me at all. IMO, he resembles every bit of a right-winger with a glossy and shiny Democratic coating.

Foreign: Obama reached a tiny olive branch to Muslims in Cairo, but half his Cabinet are staunch AIPAC supporters and friends of Israel. Palestinians, Iraqis, Syrians, Afghanis and Iranians continue to be demonized, just not in an overt way

The only way to get the job done that America wants to get done in the Middle East is by utilizing international support with the Europeans against the Chinese and the Russians. Against such "threats" as Iran, Washington wants to capitulate and appear to "negotiate" with Moscow and Beijing in order to get its agenda taken care of.

Obama is fighting the Taliban and al-Qaeda, but his generals have undertaken the policy of any Muslim taking up arms in whatever scenario (be it either attack or self-defence) against the NATO and US troops to be branded as a member or supporter of the terrorist networks.

Obama is not ending the war in Iraq. No heavy fighting like from 2003-2006 will occur on a broad scale. On the outskirts of Baghdad, the US will maintain a humongous base and act as overpowering security guards for Nouri al-Maliki who cannot hold the country together without US firepower to back him up.

Domestic: Obama as practical? No president has been a practical president. Obama doesn't run the show. He's a pretty face for all the lobbying financiers who allowed him the position under the farce election processes we Americans undertake every four years.

Obama's bailouts of Wall Street and his breakdown of Detroit puts the middle class tax cuts into the incinerator.

Obama has crafted a healthcare bill that is exactly to the health insurance conglomerate's liking. Medicare and Medicaid will be gutted during this decade, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it.

Obama will close Gitmo and then move the detainees to Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan. Or move them to Morocco, Georgia, Latvia, or Turkey. Either way, torture and rendition will continue.

Enough R&D is good, but Obama's heart is not in that matter.

That was the whole idea of handing the Democrats the win in 2008. Bush's "Bushisms" cast the country in a negative light and upset the Europeans and even Israel. The people in charge of this country wanted a President that looked and sounded more intelligent to persuade the American people that everything was alright in the world.

That is my take on the situation.

Originally posted by Moscow
I'm a liberal (more of a socialist side, and if people want to make fun of that they'd better be able to back it up), but Obama does not appeal to me at all. IMO, he resembles every bit of a right-winger with a glossy and shiny Democratic coating.

Apprently you need a refresher on what right-wingers are then. Unfortunately, we live in a real world with real problems. Pragmatism works best. Just because Obama is more conservative on some issue does not make him a blue M&M.

For example,

Muslims: All the anti-Iran rhetoric has been dropped (even to the point of keeping pretty much silent on the unrest), Obama has made major outreach to moderate Muslim nations (Turkey, Egypt, Indonesia) and is actually standing up to Isreal over this settlement flap.

Afghanistan: "Muslim taking up arms" scenario is bunk. The US is actively recruiting Muslims and paying them to fight for us.

Iraq: a lot of troops are leaving for it not to be a de-escalating war.

Domestic:
Conspiracy theory much?

Wall Street Bailout was done under Bush, not Obama, who actively is going after (somewhat successfully) CEO bonuses, etc. Ford never needed a bailout, and GM seems to be stabilizing nicely, which I think is of great benefit to our economy and its workers.

Healthcare lulz. Apparently you missed the insurance company adds running aginst HCR. I guess that was a cover then? Medicaid is being expanded...and the day the government lets Medicare die will be the day every politicain in Washington commits suicide. Never going to happen. Its not going to be unicorns and rainbows, but this is a hell of a step forward for our ack-basswards system.

Even Bush stopped torturing prisoners. I sincerely doubt Obama is dumb enough to continue that policy.

And how do you know where Obamas heart is? Stem cell research was one of the first things he did in office and he has been a bit busy with other major issues. Hell, I've worked as a scientist and I'd be talking about health care reform over R&D too.

I dont think hyperbole is really valuable from either side.

Ordo... give it a rest. The majority of Americans do not trust the government any longer, not to mention the media.

I don't like how the tea party movement is now equated with libertarians, there's a lot of very sensible libertarians who don't believe in Republican propaganda either....

Ron Paul

...on Health Care Reform!

Originally posted by Ordo
Apprently you need a refresher on what right-wingers are then. Unfortunately, we live in a real world with real problems. Pragmatism works best. Just because Obama is more conservative on some issue does not make him a blue M&M.

For example,

Muslims: All the anti-Iran rhetoric has been dropped (even to the point of keeping pretty much silent on the unrest), Obama has made major outreach to moderate Muslim nations (Turkey, Egypt, Indonesia) and is actually standing up to Isreal over this settlement flap.

Afghanistan: "Muslim taking up arms" scenario is bunk. The US is actively recruiting Muslims and paying them to fight for us.

Iraq: a lot of troops are leaving for it not to be a de-escalating war.

Domestic:
Conspiracy theory much?

Wall Street Bailout was done under Bush, not Obama, who actively is going after (somewhat successfully) CEO bonuses, etc. Ford never needed a bailout, and GM seems to be stabilizing nicely, which I think is of great benefit to our economy and its workers.

Healthcare lulz. Apparently you missed the insurance company adds running aginst HCR. I guess that was a cover then? Medicaid is being expanded...and the day the government lets Medicare die will be the day every politicain in Washington commits suicide. Never going to happen. Its not going to be unicorns and rainbows, but this is a hell of a step forward for our ack-basswards system.

Even Bush stopped torturing prisoners. I sincerely doubt Obama is dumb enough to continue that policy.

And how do you know where Obamas heart is? Stem cell research was one of the first things he did in office and he has been a bit busy with other major issues. Hell, I've worked as a scientist and I'd be talking about health care reform over R&D too.

I dont think hyperbole is really valuable from either side.

Well, it's not rainbows and unicorns.

The anti-Iran rhetoric has not stopped. The Green Revolution was fomented by the Obama administration in order to regime change Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and significantly influence the Ayatollahs to garner into Washington's interests. From 1953 to 1979, Iran was one of America's favorite lapdogs, and they were quite pissed when the 1979 revolution happened. Currently, they are pressuring the P5+1 to sanction immensely Iran and thwart the possibility of the Iranians obtaining a nuclear weapon when they themselves as well as the IAEA declare that that is not what the Iranians are doing. Russia has conceded to sanctions, but very limited ones that would not do harm to the Iranian citizens. China remains opposed to any such sanctions. Plus, the American MSM is abysmal on reporting any type of news that does not have a preconceived bias or deals with celebrities.

There are certain Muslim countries that are loyal US lapdogs: Egypt, Turkey and Saudi Arabia are the three that come quickest to my mind. Egypt is now playing a grand part in stifling the life and breath out of the Gazans, helping Israel defend its cruel policy of walling the Palestinians in that tiny stretch of land and cutting off their food and medical supplies. Speaking of Israel, no the US is not standing up to Israel over the settlement flap pure and simple. Watch next week's annual AIPAC meeting and watch how many Senators and Congressmen greet and give Prime Minister Netanyahu a wonderful "afterglow". The Israelis have plans to build 50,000 new settlements in the West Bank. They will get their wish. Congress will let them.

You're right about the US. That's what toned down the deaths for the United States in Iraq. American armed both the Sunnis and the Shias to make them stop fighting the US while negotiating a deal with Iranian-backed Shias to head the government in Baghdad while giving the Sunni Awakening Council key slots in Maliki's Cabinet. Pure insidious bribery, but what can you do? In Afghanistan, free flows of arms is quite common, and the Afghanis do in fact take up arms to defend themselves against American and NATO troops especially now that the Marja and Kandahar missions have started.

It's quite expensive to fund massive prolonged wars. Obama will deplete the troop number but still keep a massive base on the outskirts of Iraq. American MSM will stop reporting about troops in Iraq, and it'll look like the war has ended when it's still a fragile and unstable quagmire. European, Asian and American oil speculators have already mapped out huge sites for their plundering pleasures, and both Maliki and these oil tycoons need American firepower to protect their business dealings.

Domestic

What conspiracy theory are you referring to?

Bush created the 750 billion dollar TARP fund that both McCain and Obama heavily endorsed in the 2008 elections. Obama himself declared the move to be of utmost urgency, because these banks were too big to fail. Neil Barofsky, the special auditor, calculated that Obama and his successors will fork out over $23 trillion to bail out and finance these big-time banks in order "to keep America afloat" so we can continue to live out our previously exorbitant lifestyles that partially caused this tremendous collapse in Sep/Oct 2008.

Ford did not need a bailout because they quietly gutted their worker's pensions before the US government could do it for them. GM and Chrysler not so much. I've been to the Rust Belt since the restructuring. Go there and tell me if the Michigan, Ohio and Pennslyvania workers are doing fine in this "great" economy.

The insurance companies ran ads against the health care bill, because they are aghast at anything that would even stink of relating to universal single payer health care for all. They abhored the public option. They influenced wily Senators and Congressmen to not appropriate funds to help abortions or cover illegal immigrants. Those were the ads they made. And even now as the bill is passed, they still find something wrong with it. But they are more satisfied now than anything else. They call the shots, and we suffer the losses. Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security is running a $50 to $75 trillion deficit, and each retiring baby boomer this decade will exhaust what little payment they get out of this. I and my future children will not be able to get any of these benefits, even though I am funding my grandparents to get their f**king check.

The torturing of prisoners is still going on in black cell sites all around the world. After waterboarding became public and news that Dick Cheney had authorized it from inside his office, the lid was demanded to be forced shut from the public eye. Obama had not renounced nor honestly apologized for the evil practices. He had merely used an Orwellian tactic of making it all just disappear. Like I said, sooner or later he will close Guantanamo, everyone will cheer and stroke him again, and he will move it somewhere else. It's not that he's dumb. He's trying to cover his tracks and keep his puppet handlers happy. (Plus.. don't mistake that as being a conspiracy. This is a very old ploy. The people are never in charge, they just act it and are allowed certain things to keep them from uprising and killing the people in charge)

I concede the fact that at this moment I do not know where Obama's heart is. Presumably it is in his chest, hopefully, but ideologically and after studying his behavior, Cabinet choices, and foreign/domestic policies I can pretty much interpret him quite easily. I'll reiterate. R&D is great. That's not a top priority for anyone at the top. Clean Coal! Nuclear Energy! Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I personally don't think any side has any value at all. The Republicans and the Democrats are the same party in control over all of us. You'll find little nuggets and thorns that stick out and snag you and influence your thinking, but that's not saying much.

***One last word of thought. Pragmatism does work best, but pragmatism doesn't mean telling Iran that "all options are on the table" and slamming it in their face every single day with ever increasing veracity. "All options" includes the threat of armed force.

Moscow: an educated American!

Originally posted by ushomefree
Ordo... give it a rest. The majority of Americans do not trust the government any longer, not to mention the media.

I find your logical, well reasoned argument both compelling and strangely erotic. Oh wait, you just spouted a few homilies. Nevermind then.

The US is 12+ trillion dollars in debt. Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security adds an additional 50+ trillion dollars in unfounded liabilities (towards the National Debt). The list goes on. The interest alone is 2 trillion, and we have a trade deficit! We can NEVER pay this back. This is madness, and yet Health Care reform is bashed/forced upon the American people under the guise of it being "the right thing to do." Health care reform only ensures the collapse of our country, not to mention an ad hoc health care program (that will die in a decade or less). Government regulation and bureaucratic nonsense is the reason why Health Care is so expensive to begin with! And you want more government intervention? Why do you support a government that turns their back on Americans, Symmetric Chaos?! Somewhere, somehow... you are missing the point. America is about to loose it'a AAA credit rating, and various countries want the US currency booted off the map, especially China. Our country is in way over it's head. Wake up!

Originally posted by ushomefree
Ron Paul

...on Health Care Reform!

Ron Paul seems very sensible in many interviews, however he got some issues.

Originally posted by ushomefree
The US is 12+ trillion dollars in debt. Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security adds an additional 50+ trillion dollars in unfounded liabilities (towards the National Debt). The list goes on. The interest alone is 2 trillion, and we have a trade deficit! We can NEVER pay this back. This is madness, and yet Health Care reform is bashed/forced upon the American people under the guise of it being "the right thing to do." Health care reform only ensures the collapse of our country, not to mention an ad hoc health care program (that will die is in a decade or less). Government regulation and bureaucratic nonsense is the reason why Health Care is so expensive to begin with! And you want more government intervention? Why do you support a government that turns their back on Americans, Symmetric Chaos?! Somewhere, somehow... you are missing the point. America is about to loose it'a AAA credit rating, and various countries want the US currency booted off the map, especially China. Our country is in way over it's head. Wake up!

Increase inflation

Originally posted by ushomefree
The US National Debt is approaching 13 trillion dollars! Entitlement programs - Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security - amount to 50+ trillion dollars. (A figure conveniently overlooked by the media and Obama Administration.) And now... we seemingly have a new entitlement program: Health Care! How are we going to pay for this?

Meanwhile, the US Government continues to borrow money from China and Japan, amongst other countries, and the FED continues to print fiat money (while American citizens and businesses are taxed to oblivion). On top of that, the US has a trade deficit - meaning, the US imports more than it exports. This does not strengthen the US dollar and/or the US economy, and it certainly does not create jobs. It only ensures chaos, poverty and dependence on government. This is a mathematical fact.

Our country is in such dire shape, that countries like China, Singapore and Saudi Arabia are opting for a new world reserve currency! Reports have even circulated over the US loosing it's AAA credit score. These are screaming indicators of a major storm brewing.


Originally posted by ushomefree
The US is 12+ trillion dollars in debt. Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security adds an additional 50+ trillion dollars in unfounded liabilities (towards the National Debt). The list goes on. The interest alone is 2 trillion, and we have a trade deficit! We can NEVER pay this back. This is madness, and yet Health Care reform is bashed/forced upon the American people under the guise of it being "the right thing to do." Health care reform only ensures the collapse of our country, not to mention an ad hoc health care program (that will die in a decade or less). Government regulation and bureaucratic nonsense is the reason why Health Care is so expensive to begin with! And you want more government intervention? Why do you support a government that turns their back on Americans, Symmetric Chaos?! Somewhere, somehow... you are missing the point. America is about to loose it'a AAA credit rating, and various countries want the US currency booted off the map, especially China. Our country is in way over it's head. Wake up!


Curious

Bardock42... you cease to amaze me!

Originally posted by ushomefree
Ordo... give it a rest. The majority of Americans do not trust the government any longer, not to mention the media.

I never denied any of that . However, the opinon of Americans doesn't alter fact.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't like how the tea party movement is now equated with libertarians, there's a lot of very sensible libertarians who don't believe in Republican propaganda either....

Meh. its a wierd movement and its hard to define (just like libertarianism has been). The tea party is an amalgam of movements, ones that don't necessarily get along. its a conservative movement...perhaps radically so, but it has a lot of libertarian ideals as well, certianly more libertarian ideas than Republican (which seem just slightly les toxic as Democrats).

There are sensible people in most groups, be they socialists, conservatives, or libertarians.

Originally posted by Ordo

There are sensible people in most groups, be they socialists, conservatives, or libertarians.

That is, weirdly, very true.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Bardock42... you cease to amaze me!

I amazed you before?

Originally posted by Moscow
Plus, the American MSM is abysmal on reporting any type of news that does not have a preconceived bias or deals with celebrities.

Yup, though I think its quite obviosu that MSM is dead/dying.

As to Iran, I must continue to disagree that the attitude has not changed. Obama wrote Ahmadenijad...personally. There is no more "war on terror," "axis of evil" junk. If you (aspiriously) doubt his motives fine, but there certainly has been a decrease in rhetoric.

On Isreal, we will see how the settlement issue works out....Bibi sure as hell shut his mouth after meeting with Obama...and despite AIPAC and other political crap, the US hasn't budged, and unlike during the Clinton and Bush administrations when similar things happened (Albright was furious)...the US has thus far stood it ground.

But remeber Egypt went to war with Isreal and is continually dogged by sharia-promoting polticians themselves. Improving relations doesn't equate to accomplice.

and ah...Oil. Why not capitalize a ocountry if not to plate it with McDonlads' and Wal-Marts?

TARP only ended up costing 110B. All I can say in regards to the banks is that I hope some finnacial regulation reform with teeth passes. Soemthgin will pass I think...teeth is another issue.

I'm from Illinois (which coincidentially also has the only successful Midwestern city...though Minneapolis might count). I almost lived in Peoria...the only two places open wer the VA and Salvation army. I'm aware.

I really think Illegals will be covered as part of immigration reform. Their health issues are a two-step process. Before Medicare, being old was a sentace to poverty. Trust me, France has the best insurance model in the world and I hope we can work towards that. As someone with a pre-existing condition, I appreciate the reforms.

And I trust we will get our benefits...because congress won't touch the system.

At least Clean Coal (if it ever exists) and Nuclear Energy are better than coal and oil.

I think both sides have value, but they are also politicians. Likewise, politicains have been b*tched about by everyone in every poltiical system ever. A nihilistic approach is just as damaging to the system as absolute partisanship.

Originally posted by Ordo
Yup, though I think its quite obviosu that MSM is dead/dying.

As to Iran, I must continue to disagree that the attitude has not changed. Obama wrote Ahmadenijad...personally. There is no more "war on terror," "axis of evil" junk. If you (aspiriously) doubt his motives fine, but there certainly has been a decrease in rhetoric.

On Isreal, we will see how the settlement issue works out....Bibi sure as hell shut his mouth after meeting with Obama...and despite AIPAC and other political crap, the US hasn't budged, and unlike during the Clinton and Bush administrations when similar things happened (Albright was furious)...the US has thus far stood it ground.

But remeber Egypt went to war with Isreal and is continually dogged by sharia-promoting polticians themselves. Improving relations doesn't equate to accomplice.

and ah...Oil. Why not capitalize a ocountry if not to plate it with McDonlads' and Wal-Marts?

TARP only ended up costing 110B. All I can say in regards to the banks is that I hope some finnacial regulation reform with teeth passes. Soemthgin will pass I think...teeth is another issue.

I'm from Illinois (which coincidentially also has the only successful Midwestern city...though Minneapolis might count). I almost lived in Peoria...the only two places open wer the VA and Salvation army. I'm aware.

I really think Illegals will be covered as part of immigration reform. Their health issues are a two-step process. Before Medicare, being old was a sentace to poverty. Trust me, France has the best insurance model in the world and I hope we can work towards that. As someone with a pre-existing condition, I appreciate the reforms.

And I trust we will get our benefits...because congress won't touch the system.

At least Clean Coal (if it ever exists) and Nuclear Energy are better than coal and oil.

I think both sides have value, but they are also politicians. Likewise, politicains have been b*tched about by everyone in every poltiical system ever. A nihilistic approach is just as damaging to the system as absolute partisanship.

Yeah, the American MSM is very much on life support. So is the BBC, but by and large European media have retained some iota of lucidity to them. I hate to lament, but we just don't have gutsy reporters anymore like we somewhat had during Vietnam. But, it would take a lot of strenuous motivation to the American public to demand more comprehensive journalism skills.

For Iran, alright, I don't want to get into a slapping match about this, but we'll probably just have to shake hands to settle this matter. The dying rhetoric as you look at it is a result of America's MSM following the wills of its masters as well as the dictates of the White House propaganda machine (paging Mr. Gibbs). Ahmadinejad can see the writing on the wall. So does Khameni.

For Israel (side note: is Netanyahu's nickname Bibi? Kinda creepy if you ask me) AIPAC is political crap, but it is the richest and most successful lobbying power on Capitol Hill. They thwarted Jimmy Carter who had the most successful attempt at establishing peace issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians. Clinton's Oslo Accords was a direct ripoff to the Palestinian people. Read Edward Said's copious essays on that subject. Biden just got publicly humiliated by Netanyahu, and Obama barely mentioned it in his addresses. I firmly believe he won't stop the Prime Minister's plans, and Benny knows this. Benny is the most defiant Israeli leader after Lieberman and Sharon and one of the most ruthless and despicable men on the planet. Leaves Cheney behind in the dust.

Egypt was attacked by Israel in a preemptive war in 1967, after the Israelis believed a coalition of Arab countries was going to suppress the tiny country. The Six-Day War literally quashed the Egyptians, thanks to a copious amount of financial and military help from the Americans and the British. Sinai and Gaza were at issue then, with Israel getting Gaza in the process. In the 80s, Sinai again became an issue but Egypt did not have a Nasser then, and they very much had been coddled into Western ideologies. Is Mubarak really a tough guy? Hell no. If anything, it would be plausible to call him a dictator, but that's a whole other issue.

Oil. Yes, there are many people that call "Bush went to war for oil" people nuts and buffoons. To each their own spin, but history tells the ultimate truth. Oil and global corporatism dominates the fundamental belief system of so-called democracy. The will of the majority is supplanted by the wishes of the minority (in this case, rich property elites in the past and gigantic corporations in the present). I cannot believe this, but Dubai has a f**king McDonalds. That tells you everything you need to know. The Koran has no business there anymore. Let us remember also... for centuries (strike that) milleniums the Mediterranean Sea, Red Sea, Persian Gulf and the Strait of Hormuz have been the royal fantasies of many nations and their leaders. That stretch of watery region is the bread and butter of anyone who wants to lead the world. And everyone who was poor and destitute living around it were either enslaved or executed under the mighty fist of success, accomplishment, imperialism and power.

Half of the TARP fund went literally missing and unaccounted for. Canary Isles anyone? The most likely culprit. Bankers pocketed my tax money and your tax money and your average Burger King worker's tax money to inflate a deceiving stock market and fill the coffers of their CEOs employees. Mother Jones gave a great diagram of the TARP fiasco, in which your figure $110b ends up to be a well-formulated manipulation of data that the big banks use to tell the American people that they've "behaved". If you want good banking regulation.... don't assign Frank or Dodd to craft it for you. I mean, Frank/Dodd. It makes me sick just thinking about it.

Ah, Illinois. Yes, that's another Rust Belt state. Yes, you have indeed experienced the utter devastation automotive workers and manufacturing workers have suffered under. The Detroit restructuring last year only drove more nails into the coffin. Clinton's NAFTA BS really killed the Rust Belt bad. Manufacturing went offshore to third world countries for cheap labor, and American retirement pensions went the way of the dodo.

France, Britain, Netherlands... these are countries we should try to emulate when it comes to healthcare. And think about their situation: in the 20th century for almost 50 years they lost tens (maybe even hundreds) of millions of people through a terrible scorched-earth policy called total and destructive warfare. Single payer healthcare and its equivalents were born in this era, because leaders of these countries figured out they were pretty f**ked, and they needed to solve their problems fast. The Europeans are not perfect (the NHS has some glaring problems) but they are much better off than we Americans. About this new bill's appreciation for pre-existing conditions... well I only hope that they keep their word on it. Time will tell.

I don't know how old you are, but I'll take a gander that you're around my age: early 20s. Again here on this issue, I don't want to get into a slapping match. But I firmly believe that I will never see a dime of that unfunded liabilty: Medicare and Social Security

Clean coal is an oxymoron. Burning coal "efficiently" is a ludicrous idea. A real bigtime issue is the mountaintop removal that absolutely devastates the Appalachian mountain ecosystem in order to get hard-to-reach shale rock and coal down there. One look at West Virginia shows a side of poverty that rivals Baltimore ghettos. I agree that nuclear energy should be used instead of oil. We should take our 8000 to 10,000 warheads (convincing Moscow in the process) and reduce them all down to compatible nuclear energy. Now... before you start... I am aware that Obama and Medvedev signed an "agreement" to reduce warhead quantities. Let me clap my hands on that one. The Russians and the Americans doubt each other so much, especially after Bush threatened to install warhead capacities in Poland and Georgia. Obama backed off of that only as a pretext for Moscow helping Washington to back sanctions against Tehran. If Medvedev and Putin do not play along, Poland will again be a base for warhead facilities. Mark my words.

Yes, I am nihilistic. I am also not a Christian, and I guess that may explain it. I am trying to work at being a little more optimistic. It just doesn't seem to be in my blood, though.

Aside from government spending, inflation is a major, major problem! Why would you want to increase it? That would only mandate more printing of US currency (via the FED) out of thin air to manage toxic debt - debt that can never be paid back! It would also force our government to borrow money from international banks and raise taxes on Americans. Believing the hype, over reducing taxes, means that you need to read more. It's a lie. Printing money - which is based on NOTHING - to cover debt will reduce the purchasing power of US currency. That's precisely the reason China wants to over throw our currency (for another). The National debt, plus entitlement programs is 60+ trillion dollars. The interest alone is 2 trillion (maybe more, not less)! We - as a Nation - are completely engulfed in debt. Completely! Government spending needs to stop, immediately in order to save the country! The Federal government is dead asleep on the issue, and we have President Obama pushing Health Care reform (which only adds to the National Debt). Again, debt the government can not pay. And so... Health Care will decline. Federal Regulations also frustrate things. What an idiot, but I'm sure Obama is a nice guy. Obama promises, that Health Care reform will reduce our National Debt; this is a crock! It's impossible, and yet... many drink the kool-aid (because he's the president). Wake up! National Health Care... only ensures the demise of the United States of America. It also jeopardizes the best Health Care system in the world (with more regulation) - regulation that makes Health Care so expensive to begin with.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Aside from government spending, inflation is a major, major problem! Why would you want to increase it? That would only mandate more printing of US currency (via the FED) out of thin air to manage toxic debt - debt that can never be paid back! It would also force our government to borrow money from international banks and raise taxes on Americans. Believing the hype, over reducing taxes, means that you need to read more. It's a lie. Printing money - which is based on NOTHING - to cover debt will reduce the purchasing power of US currency. That's precisely the reason China wants to over throw our currency (for another). The National debt, plus entitlement programs is 60+ trillion dollars. The interest alone is 2 trillion (maybe more, not less)! We - as a Nation - are completely engulfed in debt. Completely! Government spending needs to stop, immediately in order to save the country! The Federal government is dead asleep on the issue, and we have President Obama pushing Health Care reform (which only adds to the National Debt). Again, debt the government can not pay. And so... Health Care will decline. Federal Regulations also frustrate things. What an idiot, but I'm sure Obama is a nice guy. Obama promises, that Health Care reform will reduce our National Debt; this is a crock! It's impossible, and yet... many drink the kool-aid (because he's the president). Oh... he must care about the American people. Wake up! National Health Care... only ensures the demise of the United States of America. It also jeopardizes the best Health Care system in the world (with more regulation) - government regulation that makes Health Care so expensive to being with.

I don't want to increase inflation, it was a suggestion in jest how that would get rid of the debt...w-which it obviously would.

However I read a paper a few weeks ago that did suggest that in earnest.


Besides, you know that most of your government's debt is held by your people, yes?

What do you mean by your "people"?

Originally posted by ushomefree
What do you mean by your "people"?

Most of the debt, the 12 trillion you talk about is not held by China, or any other country for that matter. It is US held.

No, no, no... the debt is owed to China - we (as a Country) borrowed the money at interest. And so... we owe that debt to China (or whatever country/or countries lent us the money)! When the US becomes a risk, countries will refrain from lending us their money... because their not going to get a return. In other words, it's waisted investment. Don't you see? In the near future, the US credit card - so to speak - will be snatched away. What will we do then? Since we are no longer a lending Nation (or a producing Nation), we are screwed! Expect more tax hikes to cover the difference. Go Obama!

Originally posted by ushomefree
No, no, no... the debt is owed to China - we (as a Country) borrowed the money at interest. And so... we owe that debt to China (or whatever country/or countries lent us the money)! When the US becomes a risk, countries will refrain from lending us their money... because their not going to get a return. In other words, it's waisted investment. Don't you see? In the near future, the US credit card - so to speak - will be snatched away. What will we do then? Since we are no longer a lending Nation (or a producing Nation), we are screwed! Expect more tax hikes to cover the difference. Go Obama!

...no, really, what I said.


Don't be silly, China is as dependent on the US as you are on it anyways, there's no way they "snatch" the credit card away....how would they even do that, ask nicely?

Originally posted by ushomefree
No, no, no... the debt is owed to China - we (as a Country) borrowed the money at interest.

Even if you only count debt owed by the US to other countries China doesn't hold even half of the debt.

In fact: http://www.treas.gov/tic/mfh.txt

That means China owns less than 1/4 of the debt owed to other countries. Since the US owes itself about 30% of it's debt that means that the percentage of the US debt owed to China is less than 18%.

Pal... your reaching (hardcore)!

Except the truth!

First off, China is a lending/producing country! Second, China actually has national savings. The US has neither - no source of income and zero savings, other than to borrow or print money (via the FED) to compensate our debt! China can afford to take a hit - the US can not. All China needs to do is manage their money properly, and they'll be okay, aside from taking an initial hit. China will not go under; their currency will remain strong, since it's not inflated. They are currently doing this now - preparing for the collapse of the US dollar. In fact, China is encouraging their citizens to purchase Gold and Silver to off set the lose. This is a slap in the face to America, but I can't blame them. They want to protect their investment (and take the smallest lose possible lent to the US). In any case, China currently owns most of our US Treasury Bonds, second to Japan (if my memory is correct). If China decides to cash them out, the US economy would crash overnight! China is beginning to see America as a RISK, thanks to inflation. Our money is not backed by anything - no goods, and no services. We - as a nation - can not pay back the debt they loaned to us, thanks to government spending. Yes, Health Care is a problem - a step in the opposite direction of where we need to be. China sees this; and you better believe they are pissed! The US is running on fumes! Go Obama!

Inside Story: China's Economic Policy

Tensions are rising over China's economic policy. Beijing is accused of deliberatly undervaluing its currency, and critics say its damaging the global economy. But what can be done? And could it lead to a trade war?

S8rsDIJGf3c







and, btw, while there are many macro and microeconomic indicators that the American economy is in a slump, that China owns a significant portion of US debt is irrelevant. This isn't the third world, China doesn't dictate aid policy to the US, and has no mechanism by which it can claim its ownership.

As this video shows pretty plainly, neither side is interested in China owning America, BECAUSE THERE IS NO MONEY TO BE MADE FROM AMERICAN DEBT. China is actually trying to offload it.

Right... you've just proved my point.

which is?

Originally posted by ushomefree
Right... you've just proved my point.

Was your point that China doesn't want control of the US debt and has no way to get it if they did? I guess you must have been using some sort of superirony.

Seriously, let's look at the worst case scenario.

China asks America for every penny owed.
- Obama laughs at them, hurls a few insults and walks away.
An upset China appeals to the UN to get their money back.
- The UN explains that they're not actually in the business of bankrupting large countries. (and for my conspiracy theorist buddies I say they would never do so openly)
Enraged at common sense China declares war on the US to claim what they are owed.
- The US hands off Iraq and Afghanistan to Europe then flexes to reveal that, like the noble Sumo wrestler, its layers of decadent fat conceal the world's most powerful military and most heavily armed population. While China reels from this discovery Russia shanks them in the kidneys and the US pummels them senseless.
-- The fallout of this is that the US has a reduced presence in the Mid East (so fewer complaints from there), is less tied up with those insurgencies (so less spending there), has boosted its economy through industrial production. That debt to China is gone and much of the debt to Japan is burned up.

Everybody wins.

Except men between 18 and 30. Also China.

marry me

You've gotten ahead of me Symmetric Chaos, but here is by rebuttal. It should suffice in bringing truth to your posts.

No... China has already lent the US the money. That money is history (or at least a percentage of the amount loaned to the US, anyway). Since the US is unable to repay the debt (loaned), China will stop lending the US money. We can't pay it back; we are a RISK! Do you think countries lend us money because we are Americans and we have MTV, ha ha!? Of course not! Any time a bank loans you money (for instance) or a nation loans funds to another Nation, it is a business transaction - for profit (at whatever interest rate). If the US is showing signs of trouble, countries internationally will stop lending the US money - they don't want to loose their investment. They want profit in lending their money, not getting screwed over! For example, if you wish to buy a 50 thousand dollar car, but only bring in 15 thousand annually - guess what? - you're not going to get the loan to buy the car! You do not have the means to pay it back. Simple, right?! Well... the same applies to the US, but at a much larger scale. Countries are beginning to wake up, and the US (AAA) credit score is under threat, not to mention our note as the world's currency. It is only a matter of time before China (or any other international country) says, "Alright... we want our money back." And yet, we need Health Care reform. What a joke. If your angry, join the majority of Americans - Americans that Obama turned his back on.

For you latter post:

US imports, exceed "exports" - trade deficit! Most of everything you see is made in China or other foreign countries. No profit towards the GDP! The American tax payer contributes about 2 trillion a year to the US Treasury. Two trillion! That's it!! In other words, despite all the fancy talk and words of wisdom, the US is way over their head. The US National debt is 12+ trillion, and that does not include 50+ trillion dollars needed to support entitlement programs like Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. And yet, Obama pushes Health Care Reform. 100% of the country should have been up in arms over this! If you think tax payers acquired all this debt, you are out of your mind! The majority of the debt came from borrowing money from foreign countries and printing fiat currency (via the FED). We can not pay this back. NEVER! The interest alone is about 2 trillion. Wake up! Despite what Bush may have handed Obama, the president should have cut Federal spending (at minimum) in half. NO MORE ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS! NO UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE! Truth does not always come with a basket of fruit, but it is the truth - the things the American people need to know. Politicians turn their backs on the American people and do as as they wish. They have re-elections to be concerned about. Go Obama!

Originally posted by ushomefree
You've gotten ahead of me Symmetric Chaos, but here is by rebuttal. It should suffice in bringing truth to your posts.

No... China has already lent the US the money. That money is history (or at least a percentage of the amount loaned to the US, anyway). Since the US is unable to repay the debt (loaned), China will stop lending the US money. We can't pay it back; we are a RISK! Do you think countries lend us money because we are Americans and we have MTV, ha ha!? Of course not! Any time a bank loans you money (for instance) or a nation loans funds to another Nation, it is a business transaction - for profit (at whatever interest rate). If the US is showing signs of trouble, countries internationally will stop lending the US money - they don't want to loose their investment. They want profit in lending their money, not getting screwed over! For example, if you wish to buy a 50 thousand dollar car, but only bring in 15 thousand annually - guess what? - you're not going to get the loan to buy the car! You do not have the means to pay it back. Simple, right?! Well... the same applies to the US, but at a much larger scale. Countries are beginning to wake up, and the US (AAA) credit score is under threat, not to mention our note as the world's currency. It is only a matter of time before China (or any other international country) says, "Alright... we want our money back." And yet, we need Health Care reform. What a joke. If your angry, join the majority of Americans - Americans that Obama turned his back on.

For you latter post:

US imports, exceed "exports" - trade deficit! Most of everything you see is made in China or other foreign countries. No profit towards the GDP! The American tax payer contributes about 2 trillion a year to the US Treasury. Two trillion! That's it!! In other words, despite all the fancy talk and words of wisdom, the US is way over their head. The US National debt is 12+ trillion, and that does not include 50+ trillion dollars needed to support entitlement programs like Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. And yet, Obama pushes Health Care Reform. 100% of the country should have been up in arms over this! If you think tax payers acquired all this debt, you are out of your mind! The majority of the debt came from borrowing money from foreign countries and printing fiat currency (via the FED). We can not pay this back. NEVER! The interest alone is about 2 trillion. Wake up! Despite what Bush may have handed Obama, the president should have cut Federal spending (at minimum) in half. NO MORE ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS! NO UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE! Truth does not always come with a basket of fruit, but it is the truth - the things the American people need to know. Politicians turn their backs on the American people and do as as they wish. They have re-elections to be concerned about. Go Obama!

Except that they're investing in the US itself, they're selling responsibility more than money. Many times in the past the US has shown that its sheer size and available resources present an incredible economic force. By investing in the power of the US economy now they can ensure it will be around tomorrow.

China doesn't want the US to collapse because that would be the next step in making them a major power. They don't want the responsibilities that come with that.
Europe doesn't want the US to collapse because they know the fallout from that would destabilize the entire rest of the planet. No US military to help the UN or provide the threat of MAD pointed at hostile nuclear powers, no US aid to help keep 3rd world countries from imploding, no US to shield them from responsibility in the middle east.
Japan doesn't want the US economy to collapse because then China and North Korea would kill them.
The entire rest of the world doesn't want the US to collapse because the US is helping to sustain them.

Letting the US die would be political, economic and literal suicide for just about every other country.

This isn't to say that the whole system isn't absurd, just that it is inherently self sustaining.

Both China and the United States have terrible economies despite all the grand-sounding news emanating out of the propaganda mouthpieces of both country's major newspapers. Both New York City and Shanghai report market outlooks that directly contradict real and dire circumstances on the streets of Los Angeles, Newark, Miami, Beijing, Guandong, and even Hong Kong.

My personal feelings is that the Chinese are in a more precarious position of a double-dip recession leading to a devastating depression than the US. However, because the dollar and the yuan are so intertwined and the US Treasury and the Federal Reserve are so in bed with the CHinese Central Bank, a devastating hit to China would crush the United States.

It is in all the major player's interests that these 2 countries do not fall flat on their face so fast and so quickly. However, both countries have leaders that are not in tune with their surroundings and thus are constantly jostling into each other with hepped-up testosterone.

The best thing to do is to hold your breath and think happy thoughts while you wait the storm out.

Originally posted by Ordo
Civil? That was like the most civil comment I've made in this thread. Geez, grow some skin.




Easy. I didn't support Bush because he was an idiot who ignored our problems while creating new ones.

Lets examin your aspirious claims.

Foreign:
Obama has reached out to Muslims as opposed to demonizing them.
Obama has placed much more effort on international cooperation as opposed to "with us or against us."
Obama is actually fighting the Taliban/AlQueda in Afghanistan, as opposed to ignoring it.
Obama is actually ending the war in Iraq, as opposed to escalating it.

Domestic:
Obama is practical as opposed to ideological
Obama's tax cuts have emphasized the middle class as opposed to the top 5%.
Obama has actually tackled tough reform issues, like health care, that disporportionately affect the middle class.
Obama is at least trying to close Gitmo.
Obama has increased federal funding for science, stem cells.
Obama can complete a full sentance containing more than three words.

Thats a lot of difference to me.



Such shocking analysis! How could anyone be so brilliant as to pick the straw-poll-winning libertarian leader who is against the very idea of government to be the candidate of a bunch of people who *gasp* HATE GOVERNMENT! You should really be paid for this.

And by the way, a bunch of dumb hicks holding signs and nooses aren't a mass, they're a mob who has invented a corner so they can be dicks about it. You lost. When you're 23% of America and hyperbolically demonize everyone who doesn't agree with you...you're not going far. Never have and never will.



See above.




I did, I just refused to acknowledge it.

What do you mean see above?

Nothing you wrote explained how my standard of living will become better because of this bill.

Obama is practical?

Would you say the same thing about someone that goes out and buys a 100,000 dollar car when they they're already 100,000 in debt?

Originally posted by KidRock
Would you say the same thing about someone that goes out and buys a 100,000 dollar car when they they're already 100,000 in debt?

Depends on how much this person makes.




But, your example is sh*t, KR. It doesn't even do good to expess what you mean.



Better example:

You are 13,000 dollers in debt.

And you are increasing your debt by 1900 dollars a year.
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm

Your revenue is 4600 a year.
http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/



And then you decide to make a purchase that will cost you $200 a year, by it's 10th year...but saves you 138 dollars in, net, in those 10 years?
http://gothamist.com/2010/03/18/report_health_care_bill_costs_940_b.php


I'd rather go with the direct numbers..

You make a purchase that will cost 940 dollars it's first year:
http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/03/18/cbo-health-care-bill-costs-940b-lowers-deficit-130b/




So, not only are you increasing your short term spending, you're also STILL waaaaaaaay over spending.




In other words, we are in major debt, are increasing our debt, and only pipe dreams tell us we will decrease debt. We all know that we won't save jack after 10 years and it will just increase our debt. But, I hope I'm wrong.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Depends on how much this person makes.




But, your example is sh*t, KR. It doesn't even do good to expess what you mean.



Better example:

You are 13,000 dollers in debt.

And you are increasing your debt by 1900 dollars a year.
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm

Your revenue is 4600 a year.
http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/



And then you decide to make a purchase that will cost you $200 a year, by it's 10th year...but saves you 138 dollars in, net, in those 10 years?
http://gothamist.com/2010/03/18/report_health_care_bill_costs_940_b.php


I'd rather go with the direct numbers..

You make a purchase that will cost 940 dollars it's first year:
http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/03/18/cbo-health-care-bill-costs-940b-lowers-deficit-130b/




So, not only are you increasing your short term spending, you're also STILL waaaaaaaay over spending.




In other words, we are in major debt, are increasing our debt, and only pipe dreams tell us we will decrease debt. We all know that we won't save jack after 10 years and it will just increase our debt. But, I hope I'm wrong.

All the feds have to do is legalize pot, and tax it. Then the pipe dream comes true.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
All the feds have to do is legalize pot, and tax it. Then the pipe dream comes true.



Shakya for pres.

Originally posted by dadudemon




Shakya for pres.

My campaign slogan would be "I did inhale".

Originally posted by ushomefree
All China needs to do is manage their money properly, and they'll be okay, aside from taking an initial hit. China will not go under; their currency will remain strong, since it's not inflated. They are currently doing this now - preparing for the collapse of the US dollar. In fact, China is encouraging their citizens to purchase Gold and Silver to off set the lose. This is a slap in the face to America, but I can't blame them.

Are you that naive?

Check that: http://www.uschina.org/statistics/tradetable.html

Look at the 2 last table, and ask yourself:"Would it be a good thing for China to crash US?"

If it would suck for everybody that US fall under another economical crisis (specially for us, canadien), it would also suck for China, to loose what is, by far, their most important partner.

As for the thread itself, well, congrats America!

cheers

The Dollar Bubble

eZA0qNsf4m0

you posted that already. we thought it was silly the first time.

O I C... why? I'm just curious

Originally posted by ushomefree
O I C... why? I'm just curious

Probably due to all the things you ignored by Symmetric Chaos, inimalist and bouboumaster over the last few pages...

Well... what? I just offered my opinion. It's hard to keep up with everyone on the forum.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Well... what? I just offered my opinion. It's hard to keep up with everyone on the forum.

Well, you offered an opinion, then it was debated, then you posted a somewhat unrelated youtube video...

Many people debated over my opinion - some agreed, others did not. The video I posted, which deals with government spending and inflation, is the base of the argument. I thought I'd post it again. Have you watched it?

Some Obamownage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uOSBLi_6VQ&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pUeDfoukpk&feature=channel

You prescribe to President Obama?

Originally posted by ushomefree
You prescribe to President Obama?

Absolutly not, as I'm a canadian. I don't have any power here, like you, who can vote.

Still, I'm happy that he do some ownage, as some dicks seemed to push to hard on that "socialist plan" and "nazi plan" or whatever.

I've been to Nova Scotia, Camp Brenton twice! Loved it! I was visiting a girl I met in S. Korea (while serving in the US Army). Where are you from?

I'm from the most awesome province of all ten: I'm from Quebec, of course!

:P


Still, Nova-Scotia and New-Brunswick are both really nice! I wish I could go visit once more Ontario and travel to British Colombia. It would be the first time.

But Quebec kick way more ass!

Ha ha, what about Toronto?

Originally posted by ushomefree
Ha ha, what about Toronto?

Fun to visit, the poeple there are a tad cold.

Originally posted by The Daily Beast
After a yearlong struggle, health-care reform is finally here. The House has approved the health-care reconciliation bill tonight with a vote of 220-207. Instead of the bill heading straight to President Obama's desk, Republicans noted parliamentary problems that required the House to vote again on technical issues. Earlier today, the Senate passed the bill 56-43, and it makes amendments to the historic bill which became law on Tuesday. The bill will crack down on insurance industry abuses and is expected to reduce federal deficits by nearly $143 billion over a decade.

~ The Daily Beast

WIN.

Well, they passed it and their approval ratings might edge up a little bit.

$143 billion over a decade is a drop in the p*ss bucket compared to the US government's skyrocketing federal deficit. If you look next decade at the federal government's budget chart, this purported "save" (green) on money will be lost in the sea of "spend" (red) on actuality.

Originally posted by Moscow
Well, they passed it and their approval ratings might edge up a little bit.

$143 billion over a decade is a drop in the p*ss bucket compared to the US government's skyrocketing federal deficit. If you look next decade at the federal government's budget chart, this purported "save" (green) on money will be lost in the sea of "spend" (red) on actuality.


I don't expect it to save money, at all. In fact, I think the numbers are wrong and it will end up like any other program that pretends to save money: it will create more long term debt.




However, if we had a bunch of programs that saved us money long term: $100 billion here, $200 billion there, we would eventually end back up in the black.


I say we start with the DEA. Legalize weed, shrooms, and other "less harmful" drugs. Put a hefty federal excise taxes on them. Then cut and slash other programs...like SS.

The end.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Depends on how much this person makes.




But, your example is sh*t, KR. It doesn't even do good to expess what you mean.



Better example:

You are 13,000 dollers in debt.

And you are increasing your debt by 1900 dollars a year.
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm

Your revenue is 4600 a year.
http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/



And then you decide to make a purchase that will cost you $200 a year, by it's 10th year...but saves you 138 dollars in, net, in those 10 years?
http://gothamist.com/2010/03/18/report_health_care_bill_costs_940_b.php


I'd rather go with the direct numbers..

You make a purchase that will cost 940 dollars it's first year:
http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/03/18/cbo-health-care-bill-costs-940b-lowers-deficit-130b/




So, not only are you increasing your short term spending, you're also STILL waaaaaaaay over spending.




In other words, we are in major debt, are increasing our debt, and only pipe dreams tell us we will decrease debt. We all know that we won't save jack after 10 years and it will just increase our debt. But, I hope I'm wrong.

Ok? You said exactly what I did, except you decided to get real specific and waste your time turning this into a scientific experiment.

The point still stands: When you are in debt, you shouldn't do something that will throw you even farther into debt.

Originally posted by KidRock
Ok? You said exactly what I did, except you decided to get real specific and waste your time turning this into a scientific experiment.

How is this a scientific experiment? Your numbers didn't even come close to being in a proper ratio with the real numbers.


Your numbers implied that Obama is going to be spending 12 trillion more dollars. Not even close to being accurate.



My numbers were in the proper ratio...almost exact, to be specific. (lulz)


Your example was shit and I hated it. It HAS to be RIGHT, damnit!



However, I obviously agreed with your point. 313


Originally posted by KidRock
The point still stands: When you are in debt, you shouldn't do something that will throw you even farther into debt.


According to the numbers, it will take us out of debt a little.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I don't expect it to save money, at all. In fact, I think the numbers are wrong and it will end up like any other program that pretends to save money: it will create more long term debt.




However, if we had a bunch of programs that saved us money long term: $100 billion here, $200 billion there, we would eventually end back up in the black.


I say we start with the DEA. Legalize weed, shrooms, and other "less harmful" drugs. Put a hefty federal excise taxes on them. Then cut and slash other programs...like SS.

The end.

Eventually would be a long time. Legalizing and taxing weed and prostitution alongside gutting the Defense Dept would make a considerable stab at reaching partially the goal I would think.

We would still need some more creative and gutsy minds to take care of the rest

Originally posted by Moscow
Eventually would be a long time. Legalizing and taxing weed and prostitution alongside gutting the Defense Dept would make a considerable stab at reaching partially the goal I would think.

We would still need some more creative and gutsy minds to take care of the rest

Yes. One of the other groups I want to dismantle or cut down to a small stump is the FDA.

Also, I want to get rid of The Fed.


I'd definitely be assisnated by multiple groups from Corporate contract assasins, Mafia (Russian, Italian, Irish, etc.), government highered, down to the little guy that lost a job due to my actions. The only peole that wouldn't come after me would be the right-wing extremists, white supremicists, some old school conservative repbulicans, ibertarains, etc.


So...like..I'd piss off everyone except the people that I really don't like...except the libertarians.

Getting rid of the Fed would be a wonderful idea. I'm not a typical Jacksonian nut, but the Federal Reserve is one instance of money power that has gone too far over the edge.

It's always interesting to be on a Mafia hit list-- you could learn a new language that way.

Finally, pissing off a crapload of people is always b*tching fun

Proud of america, now the Johnsons won't have to sell there house because of complications in there pregnancy. Some things are worth a little national debt. Cut back on F-22 raptors, hold back the Mars plan and cut back on shit you don't need in the next few decades and US may be in the Black by about 2030.

You have got to stop believing everything politicians and media outlets purport. Fact of the matter is, our national debt exceeds 12 trillion dollars. We have a trade deficit and zero savings (to make matters worse). Entitlement programs like Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security has a 50+ trillion dollar price tag! 50 trillion! And now... we've seemingly adopted another entitlement program: Universal Health Care. This is completely insane, and it only adds to our national debt. Since tax payer money can not account for all government spending (including entitlement programs), our government is forced to borrow money from foreign nations like China and Japan (amongst others) or print fiat money via the FED to cover expenses. This of course, inflates the US currency, since it's based on nothing (other than debt). Government spending is completely out of control, and Health Care reform ensures the demise of our country. And just to be clear, let me say this: not every American will be cover under the Obama plan. I you think different: read HR 3200. Again, stop believing everything politicians and media outlets purport. Be critical of your government. It depends on your stupidity and time watching "American Idol." Meanwhile, China - the true power house of the world - is calling for a new reserve currency beneath the surface, not to mention other nations with sound money. I say "beneath the surface," because... the media almost never reports such truth. Instead, it focuses on the false hope of a utopian environment promised by Health Care reform, coverage of President Obama shooting hoops at the White House or the first pitch. People... wake up! Please! The bill can still be re-pealed, but you need to educate yourself and start thinking logically, not emotionally. For a glimpse of what I'm talking about, please consider the videos below. God bless us all.

YyMk6LXIN1U

tm_slbLGwkU&feature=channel

Fn3X7-3YpkE&feature=related

Originally posted by ushomefree
You have got to stop believing everything politicians and media outlets purport. Fact of the matter is, our national debt exceeds 12 trillion dollars. We have a trade deficit and zero savings (to make matters worse). Entitlement programs like Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security has a 50+ trillion dollar price tag! 50 trillion! And now... we've seemingly adopted another entitlement program: Universal Health Care. This is completely insane, and it only adds to our national debt. Since tax payer money can not account for all government spending (including entitlement programs), our government is forced to borrow money from foreign nations like China and Japan (amongst others) or print fiat money via the FED to cover expenses. This of course, inflates the US currency, since it's based on nothing (other than debt). Government spending is completely out of control, and Health Care reform ensures the demise of our country. And just to be clear, let me say this: not every American will be cover under the Obama plan. I you think different: read HR 3200. Again, stop believing everything politicians and media outlets purport. Be critical of your government. It depends on your stupidity and time watching "American Idol." Meanwhile, China - the true power house of the world - is calling for a new reserve currency beneath the surface, not to mention other nations with sound money. I say "beneath the surface," because... the media almost never reports such truth. Instead, it focuses on the false hope of a utopian environment promised by Health Care reform, coverage of President Obama shooting hoops at the White House or the first pitch. People... wake up! Please! The bill can still be re-pealed, but you need to educate yourself and start thinking logically, not emotionally. For a glimpse of what I'm talking about, please consider the videos below. God bless us all.

Simple fix. REAL, ENFORCED, PROGRESSIVE TAXATION. Tax the rich at a 70% income and 85% capital gains tax rate. Also, go after all the fortune 500 companies that haven't been paying taxes and take em for everything they owe...retroactively.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Simple fix. REAL, ENFORCED, PROGRESSIVE TAXATION. Tax the rich at a 70% income and 85% capital gains tax rate. Also, go after all the fortune 500 companies that haven't been paying taxes and take em for everything they owe...retroactively.

Not that I necessarily disagree, but wouldn't that kill the Economy?

As well as scare off human capital?

Originally posted by Autokrat
Not that I necessarily disagree, but wouldn't that kill the Economy?

As well as scare off human capital? Nope, once again, EVERY case in a market economy has shown that taxes are directly related to wages so the economy would not "be killed". "Human capital" wouldn't suffer because higher wages mean more consumers, especially when inflation is driven by wages, not prices (classic, demand side, anti-reagan economics). As for enforcement, how about if you're an executive for a debtor corporation, you surrender your passport and any and all air and sea craft you own till the debt is repaid, and if you step within 500 feet of the ocean, Canada, Mexico, or an international airport, the nearest armed guard takes aim at your head and opens fire?

Originally posted by Autokrat
Not that I necessarily disagree, but wouldn't that kill the Economy?

As well as scare off human capital?

What it would do would be slightly reduce tax revenue as the incredibly rich simply go live in places with lower taxes.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What it would do would be slightly reduce tax revenue as the incredibly rich simply go live in places with lower taxes. Like where? Saudi Arabia? The UAE? Russia? Somalia? Good ****ing luck.

The tax hikes that you recommend, would put (nearly) every American out of a job! An 85% capital gains tax? That makes zero sense. Sorry. What needs to happen is this: a flat tax, to include a reduction in government spending. This would reduce the government's need to leach off of Americans in the form of taxation, not to mention dependance on foreign nations and the FED for reserves. With reduced spending, our government can better balance our national debt, and Americans will have more of their hard earned money! Of course, our government is doing the complete opposite.

FbvA60KMotg

But...of course...its perfectly all right for Americans can lose all of their hard earned money when their kid gets run over by a car or they get cancer

ps...this is healthcre thread...not a tax thread.

For the US government to provide Health Care for every American in our country, it is only possible through taxation, and/or borrowing funds via foreign countries and the FED - mostly printed money, since foreign banks are beginning to see our currency as a toxic asset and tax payer money does not fit the bill. Tax revenue equates to approximately 2 trillion dollars, and that money is already spent! Do the math. How can you not talk about taxes?! Nothing is free in this world, dude. If my calculator works as well as yours, this means we - as a nation - are flat broke! And this does not equate to savings - only more debt. We've got a 12+ trillion dollar national debt, 50+ trillion in entitlement programs and a trade deficit. Health Care reform is guaranteed to raise taxes (since our government lacks a balanced budget). Duh! If also guarantees lesser quality of life. If you think things are bad now, wait until 2014! What then? More government regulation? More entitlement programs, ha ha?! Who's going to lend us the money when we having zero means to pay it back or have next to zero collateral? Answer: no one. And so... we'll just print more money via the FED to cover our debt (further devaluating our currency in the process). It blows my mind how people think the US is somehow impervious to international market principles, not to mention history. Good job!