Kain vs Team

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MooCowofJustice
Four rounds. Kain is on his own. Kind of a gauntlet, I guess. Yeah he'll be fully healed after each round he passes, or whatever.

Rounds:
1. vs Dante, Kratos, Alex Mercer.
Takes place on the set of The View. First people to kill the hosts get ten internets.

2. vs Kessler, Ridley and Bowser.
Takes place on Yoshi's Island. If it isn't over in five minutes, the island is overrun with the Fuzzys from the Touch Fuzzy, Get Dizzy level. Galaxy Bowser, MP3 Ridley.

3. vs Rundas, Articuno, Ice Mario.
Battle takes place on a large lake which is suspiciously still. If the fight is not over in five minutes, the area swarms with Metroids. In the event they all die, Metroid Prime rises from the lake to finish everyone off.

4. vs Nanite Nick Fury, Dark Khan, Chaos Sorceror Hero.
Takes place on Planet Fastoon, the home world of the Lombaxes. After five minutes Ratchet will use the Dimensionater to send them all to the World of Warcraft, where everyone will attack them. I wasn't sure how I could end this one, so I threw the entirety of Warcraft at them.

ScreamPaste
no expression
LOLWTF

Burning thought
Kain can beat 1, through his nigh invulerability and special powers such as those of time, and blood and soul. Dont know the rest of the characters.

MooCowofJustice
You don't know Ridley and Bowser? Or Mario, Dark Khan or Articuno?

Come on, even you have played Pokemon.

Burning thought
I have played pokemon and I know who they are, just not what they can do.

ScreamPaste
1. Dante will kill the host before Kain.
2. Lol fuzzies. But uh.. Yeaaaah. Kain can't fight Ridley or Bowser. I don't know much about Kessler.
3. They wait for the Metroids just to be jackasses. Metroids are HAX no expression
4. They'll kill Kain quickly enough to avoid Warcraft tossings.

RLAuPnUz0HI

Wei Phoenix
Fury and Dark Khan? Kain's screwed.

Burning thought
You dont know much about Kain either, you have a grand total of 1 game under your belt, the weakest showing too....

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Kain's screwed.


Also,
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
1. Dante will kill the host before Kain.


Mercer, not Dante.

ScreamPaste
I see Dante's name O.o

BloodRain
^What Scream said.

Kesseler is basically Cole turned up to 11.... or 100.

MooCowofJustice
Metroids eat souls, so you know. And if I recall the only things that have survived a Metroid attack are Samus and Ridley. There might be some others but I forget them.

Nanite Nick Fury is the main villain of Marvel: Ultimate Alliance 2. You've debated him against Kain before and tried arguing that Kain could mind control him. The problem was his brain is controlled by Nanites, little machines.

See the second Pokemon movie for Articuno stuff. Rundas is the Ice Bounty Hunter from Metroid Prime 3.

Scenario may be kind enough to provide info on both Rundas and Ridley, or at least Ridley. So you should be nice to him, BT.

I can halp with Kessler. Played through inFamous quite a few times.

mechagoomba
I dont care what happens in the first three lol but the chaos sorceror scrafices kains soul to Slannesh or whatever lesser deamon of slannesh will take the flithy thing :#

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Metroids eat souls, so you know. And if I recall the only things that have survived a Metroid attack are Samus and Ridley. There might be some others but I forget them.

Nanite Nick Fury is the main villain of Marvel: Ultimate Alliance 2. You've debated him against Kain before and tried arguing that Kain could mind control him. The problem was his brain is controlled by Nanites, little machines.

See the second Pokemon movie for Articuno stuff. Rundas is the Ice Bounty Hunter from Metroid Prime 3.

Scenario may be kind enough to provide info on both Rundas and Ridley, or at least Ridley. So you should be nice to him, BT.

I can halp with Kessler. Played through inFamous quite a few times.

You forgot Khan and his Darkseid half noob. miffed

ScreamPaste
gay_rage

MooCowofJustice
BT knows about Dark Khan. We all do.

Burning thought
Whats ice mario?

ScreamPaste
Mario shooting ice from his hands, and walking on water as it freezes beneath his feet.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I see Dante's name O.o

I meant Mercer will kill the hosts before Dante. Why would Dante kill humans anyway?

ScreamPaste
For ten internets?

MooCowofJustice
He skates on it too. Not that it really helps, it's just cool.

But shit, that's got to be pretty cold to instafreeze water as you step on it.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I meant Mercer will kill the hosts before Dante. Why would Dante kill humans anyway?

Have you ever seen even a second of that show? Also, many men would argue that those women are not women, they are hens. We all know chickens are evil.

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Four rounds. Kain is on his own. Kind of a gauntlet, I guess. Yeah he'll be fully healed after each round he passes, or whatever.

Rounds:
1. vs Dante, Kratos, Alex Mercer.
Takes place on the set of The View. First people to kill the hosts get ten internets. Kratos rapes to death.

Don't really know much about any of them.

If I'm not mistaken, Articuno is the greatest asset here. I don't recall Kain's weakness to water/ice but if he does have one then he's screwed.

Fury comes with good durability to tank. Dark Khan is half Darkseid so Omega Effect, Omega Sanction, use those reality warping powers he had.

Nephthys
Does Mercer even have a soul? If not I can see him soloing round 1. Though really, both his teammates can too.

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by Nephthys
Does Mercer even have a soul? If not I can see him soloing round 1. Though really, both his teammates can too.

He was born a human so I don't see why not unless something happened in the game and you find out he's some test tube baby or something.

MooCowofJustice
What's the matter with you two? Throwing in issues of morality and having a soul into car smashing, people killing gorey goodness.

Nephthys
I think you do, except he's actually a virus or something, not to mention he has all those memories...

The Scenario
Alex Mercer: He's not the actual Mercer, but a mass of Blacklight Virus that took the guy's memories. I don't think he has blood or a soul, being a mass of viral cells.

Rundas: Phyrgissian Bounty Hunter with cryokinesis. He has several ice related abilities, including ice armor, flight using a slide, summonning icebergs, and a freeze-then-shatter technique. He can use Hypermode, injecting phazon into his body to increase his abilities and durability. Phazon ice supposedly never melts.

Omega Ridley: Half-Robot Phazon Corrupted Space Dragon Pirate General. He breathes plasma, is armed with bombs and energy blasts, has forcefields for wings, and can fire phazon from his mouth or tail. Can summon phazite armor to protect himself further.

Sin_Volvagia
Based on what I know....

1. Kain loses unless he can instantly steal souls or make the hosts' heads explode with TK.

2. Kain kills Bowser and might be able to take on Ridley. I barely played Infamous so Kessler is unknown to me.

3. Articuno and Mario get slaughtered. Rundas would last past 5 minutes with Hyper mode and will take down with the Metroids. Kain ends here.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Metroids eat souls, so you know.

Lies. Metroids drain an organism's life force.

MooCowofJustice
How does Kain kill Bowser, exactly? Or even Articuno for that matter.

And what exactly do you think Life Force is?

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
For ten internets?

Nahh. Mebbe twenty mmm

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice

Have you ever seen even a second of that show? Also, many men would argue that those women are not women, they are hens. We all know chickens are evil.


I wouldn't watch that show even if my life depended on it >__>. I exaggerate, but you understand amirite?

Dante wouldn't never kill evil chickens uhuh. Even if he did, Mercer loves to eat chicken.

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
How does Kain kill Bowser, exactly? Or even Articuno for that matter.

Well he can teleport, control minds, use telekinesis, drain victims of their blood, shoot lighting, teleport, steal souls, and use pyrokinesis. That should be enough to take them both out.



It's biological. Souls are more spiritual.

ScreamPaste
mariofacepalm

MooCowofJustice
It's the same damn thing, but Life Force applies a more biological view to it.

None of that means Kain can kill Bowser. Mind controlling won't even help, because Bowser can't kill himself either.

NemeBro
Spiritual, or even the word spirit is not even necessarily related to souls at all.

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
It's the same damn thing, but Life Force applies a more biological view to it.

None of that means Kain can kill Bowser. Mind controlling won't even help, because Bowser can't kill himself either.

Souls aren't biological. Metroids eat biological essences.

Bowser can't kill himself? Toonforce!

MooCowofJustice
GTFO my thread with your Toonforce stupidity. I even specified SMG Bowser.

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by NemeBro
Spiritual, or even the word spirit is not even necessarily related to souls at all.

Proof! mad

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
mariofacepalm

Cyner
Anyone from Metroid > Kain

Burning thought
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
mariofacepalm

BloodRain
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
mariofacepalm

ermm Didnt want to be left out.

Sin_Volvagia

MooCowofJustice
Quotes from Metroid Prime state that whatever the Metroids eat takes no physical form and they have found no true purpose for it. Yet, without it, the victim dies. They call it "Life Energy", but as your definition of the soul says, it is immaterial.

MooCowofJustice
So did we all agree Kain lost at round 1?

ScreamPaste
I kinda wanna watch BT try to argue against Metroids. haermm

MooCowofJustice
As do I. Even if Kain loses a round, I'll let him move on to the next one, because I enjoy the idea of a wrinkly old vampire, a fat dragonturtle, a space dragon and an old electricity powered super villain all stumbling around Yoshi's island as they touch the Fuzzys.

Ridley should fly around and crash into one of the mountains. laughing

Burning thought
I dont really understand round 1, whats the "hosts"?

MooCowofJustice
The View is a TV talk show that has somehow been around for a while. The hosts are just the hens that sit there clucking.

Burning thought
So their just people ? if this is true, how is this a challenge?

MooCowofJustice
The object of the round isn't to kill them. erm

It's a fight. Ten internets are completely worthless.

Burning thought
Oh, thats why you confused me. I thought you were saying the goal was to be the first to kill the people in this show.

If its a fight then Kain wins with some difficult spell casting. Dantes the only threat.

MooCowofJustice
Well I dunno. I've been told GoW3 Kratos is rather amazing.

So, can Kain kill Bowser, Ridley and Rundas in five minutes? If not, can he survive an onslaught of Metroids? And if so, can he defeat Metroid Prime with the help of the other three?

Burning thought
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Well I dunno. I've been told GoW3 Kratos is rather amazing.

So, can Kain kill Bowser, Ridley and Rundas in five minutes? If not, can he survive an onslaught of Metroids? And if so, can he defeat Metroid Prime with the help of the other three?


GoW 3 Kratos still has the same weaknesses he had in previous games that Kain can use to his advantage. That being speed. Mercer, Kain and Dante will be fighting miles away from him through speed, teleportation etc and he will never keep up, even with Hermes boots.

I still dont know enough about the others to make a decision, Sin seems to think Kain can beat Bowser and Ridley.

MooCowofJustice
Don't ever take Sin's word on anything. He still believes in toonforce when I've specified it not to matter.

Bowser took a Supernova. And we're not talking about a Sephiroth one, either. And Ridley is like, crazy with Phazon powers. I guess he can fly at 72 times the speed of light and smash the hull of Samus' ship which is also incredibly durable. As well as survive in space, Metroid attacks, and atmospheric reentries.

Burning thought
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Don't ever take Sin's word on anything. He still believes in toonforce when I've specified it not to matter.

Bowser took a Supernova. And we're not talking about a Sephiroth one, either. And Ridley is like, crazy with Phazon powers. I guess he can fly at 72 times the speed of light and smash the hull of Samus' ship which is also incredibly durable. As well as survive in space, Metroid attacks, and atmospheric reentries.

"shrug", hes knowledgable on these characters, I dont even know them. Therefore I see no reason why not.

Assuming its not toonforce or based on some inconsistent nonsense then that only cancels out Kains physical blows as a way to kill him. kain deals in few physical blows. I cant see how Sin would give Kain a win over smeone who can go 72 times the speed of light unless the attack itself is slow to get started. Whats his reaction time like?

What can a metroid do other than the "drain life essence" or w/e was mentioned earlier?

MooCowofJustice
Phazon Metroids can become intangible. There are a few species who have different abilities. Hunter Metroids have a tentacle that they use. I think there was an Omega Metroid in Fusion which was a lot like Ridley. Outside of that, not much.

Kain's spells still do physical damage. no expression

It's not an attack, it's a flight speed. And I dunno. It's just good enough to give Samus a decent fight, and Samus is pretty incredible.

Burning thought
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Phazon Metroids can become intangible. There are a few species who have different abilities. Hunter Metroids have a tentacle that they use. I think there was an Omega Metroid in Fusion which was a lot like Ridley. Outside of that, not much.

Kain's spells still do physical damage. no expression

It's not an attack, it's a flight speed. And I dunno. It's just good enough to give Samus a decent fight, and Samus is pretty incredible.

They dont sound that impressive, why are they such a great threat?

No they dont, most of them just use magic and curses to effect the opponent, its blood, its soul etc. The only ones that do physical damage is the blasts like energy bolt.

Can you show him going at 72x lightspeed?

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Burning thought
They dont sound that impressive, why are they such a great threat?

No they dont, most of them just use magic and curses to effect the opponent, its blood, its soul etc. The only ones that do physical damage is the blasts like energy bolt.

Can you show him going at 72x lightspeed?

They're pretty durable. And they eat souls.

But they would still have to harm Bowser, which it is pretty safe to say they can't do.

Probably in some manga that I don't have scans of. It'll show you Ridley outrunning Samus' ship. Keep being nice to Scenario and I bet he has some.

Burning thought
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
They're pretty durable. And they eat souls.

But they would still have to harm Bowser, which it is pretty safe to say they can't do.

Probably in some manga that I don't have scans of. It'll show you Ridley outrunning Samus' ship. Keep being nice to Scenario and I bet he has some.


They would just take his soul, or control his blood. kains energy blasts cant break Bowsers body if he can survive supernovas though.

MooCowofJustice
If you're talking about the sword, it has to break the skin to steal a soul. This I remember. Controlling Bowser's blood seems rather pointless and impossible, as there are two other people Kain has to deal with at the same time.

Burning thought
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
If you're talking about the sword, it has to break the skin to steal a soul. This I remember. Controlling Bowser's blood seems rather pointless and impossible, as there are two other people Kain has to deal with at the same time.

This is never said or even implied and Kain has two spells to take souls, not just a sword. Its also illogical to think skin has to be broken due to the fact Kain is taking the soul, nothing to do with the flesh. And pointless? why, it would just send it to his heart, killing him instantly, or to his brain or to clog up his arteries. He wouldnt have a chance and if Kain drinks some he gains bowsers physical stats.

XanatosForever
Assuming Kain makes it the round three, he will stop there. The instant he goes mist form, Ice Mario will skate through it and freeze the liquid molecules solid, or Articuno will vie flying through the mist. So long Kain. 131

Burning thought
Yeh, assuming Kain doesnt just reform on top of either and kill them then and there.

XanatosForever
How would he have time to do something like that? Mario and Articuno's ice powers are instantaneous, the minute they get within range the mist will freeze. Kain might be able to reform part of the mist before he is completely frozen, but that still leaves him in quite a bad state.

Burning thought
And so is Kains transformation. He could change the instant they even get close. Not that they would, a great steaming bird and a man made of ice running at you is a bit obvious. Kain shatters ice mario and I dont know about Articuno, not sure of its powers.

Nephthys
When has it ever taken a soul without breaking the skin, for arguments sake?

Not that he doesn't get owned in the first round though.

XanatosForever
Steaming? Where did you get that from? Articuno is an Ice pokemon. Also, please show evidence of the speed of Kain's reformation.

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by XanatosForever
Steaming? Where did you get that from? Articuno is an Ice pokemon. Also, please show evidence of the speed of Kain's reformation.

KhLQXcaVM0k

Burning thought
Originally posted by XanatosForever
Steaming? Where did you get that from? Articuno is an Ice pokemon. Also, please show evidence of the speed of Kain's reformation.

It turns moisture in the air into snow, its going to be constantly creating some kind of vapour. And i was sniped.

Originally posted by Nephthys
When has it ever taken a soul without breaking the skin, for arguments sake?

Not that he doesn't get owned in the first round though.


Its not. That doesnt mean that Kain is wrong however, only that it just so happens to be an impalement that Kain favours in combat.

Not that you could argue that though right?

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Burning thought
This is never said or even implied and Kain has two spells to take souls, not just a sword. Its also illogical to think skin has to be broken due to the fact Kain is taking the soul, nothing to do with the flesh. And pointless? why, it would just send it to his heart, killing him instantly, or to his brain or to clog up his arteries. He wouldnt have a chance and if Kain drinks some he gains bowsers physical stats.

Great, now do tell how they work and how he'll do them before Kessler shoots him or Ridley is in his face.

To drink Bowser's blood, Kain has to get it out of him. Not happening.

Nephthys
'Kain' is wrong? Are you getting confused between you and him? And if he hasn't ever done something then he can't do it. Why would it even need to be a sword if it can just take the soul whenever?



Dante is too fast for Kain to ever stand a chance of hitting and is versatile to beat seven shades of shit into him, from what I can tell the sword can't pierce Kratos' skin and Kratos is also versatile enough to kick Kains ass and Kain has no hope of putting Mercer down. THe three working in tandum will pwn him.

Burning thought
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Great, now do tell how they work and how he'll do them before Kessler shoots him or Ridley is in his face.

To drink Bowser's blood, Kain has to get it out of him. Not happening.

not sure if theres a vid of blood shower on youtube, all I can say is that they are all more or less instant casts.

Based on what? there are many places blood can get out from in a body, durability does not stop blood from reaching Kain. Durability is unaffected by Kains magic.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Nephthys
'Kain' is wrong? Are you getting confused between you and him? And if he hasn't ever done something then he can't do it. Why would it even need to be a sword if it can just take the soul whenever?



Dante is too fast for Kain to ever stand a chance of hitting and is versatile to beat seven shades of shit into him, from what I can tell the sword can't pierce Kratos' skin and Kratos is also versatile enough to kick Kains ass and Kain has no hope of putting Mercer down. THe three working in tandum will pwn him.

Kain points out that his reaver takes souls on strike. Kain already has a spell to take a soul from range on the fly, its a sword because it takes souls on strike as Kain says. Not on pierce, which is an unfounded assumption not really supported by anything.


Not true, Dante is fast but not "too" fast and Dantes not that strong either. Cant pierce Kratos' skin? so what? and Kratos is going to kick Kains ass when kains teleported far beyond his reach? good job....Mercer is nearly as bad.

Nephthys
You're twisting semantics to your own ends and Kain is a fallible character anyway. What he says is not fact. Unless theres actual proof that Kain doesn't need to pierce the skin, Kain can't. And is it Kain taking the soul or the Soul Reaver in this long range version?



Dante is waay too fast for Kain and much stronger. If Kain can't pierce his skin he can't take his soul, not that he could anyway. And what pray tell would Kain running away accomplish? Kain can't put Mercer down, Mercer will eventually put Kain down.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Burning thought
not sure if theres a vid of blood shower on youtube, all I can say is that they are all more or less instant casts.

Based on what? there are many places blood can get out from in a body, durability does not stop blood from reaching Kain. Durability is unaffected by Kains magic.

Blood Shower doesn't work on things with durability.

Bowser taking a supernova. For it to not disintegrate him every part of his body is incredibly durable. Kain's magic still has to do damage. Fire causes burns, whether it's magical fire or not. You know this.

XanatosForever
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
KhLQXcaVM0k

So I assume the moments where Kain is dashing and faded out is supposed to be the mist form?

Burning thought
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Blood Shower doesn't work on things with durability.

Bowser taking a supernova. For it to not disintegrate him every part of his body is incredibly durable. Kain's magic still has to do damage. Fire causes burns, whether it's magical fire or not. You know this.


based on what evidence?

Him taking a supernova does not mean his blood cannot be sprayed throughout his body and cause him to go into cardiac arrest, or make his heart explode. Your trying to claim his blood has some sort of resistance just beacuse he took a little supernova (its not a real supernova, the "sun" was just a lump of magma, not that large.). Yeh I do know this, and Blood shower does not make "burns", it just calls blood and opens the body through sorcery, theres no physical strike involved.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're twisting semantics to your own ends and Kain is a fallible character anyway. What he says is not fact. Unless theres actual proof that Kain doesn't need to pierce the skin, Kain can't. And is it Kain taking the soul or the Soul Reaver?



Dante is waay too fast for Kain and much stronger. If Kain can't pierce his skin he can't take his soul, not that he could anyway. And what pray tell would Kain running away accomplish? Kain can't put Mercer down, Mercer will eventually put Kain down.

Falliable? hes using a weapon and claiming what it does on first hand knowledge, how is he falliable? And no, you still need to prove your assertion, that Kain has to pierce skin to take souls. The Soul reaver if he strikes with the sword, Kain rips a soul out using Soul rip spell.

Not based on feats, based on feats Dante is bested by slower attacks from vergil rather than quicker ones and could not dodge an impalement from Vergil that kain can do quicker. It would allow him to use his blood manipulation spells and TK from range to kill Kratos in one move, and Kratos has shown blunt durability, how much PSI he can take is unknown. lol mercer? hes just a lump of viral matter, just rip him apart until he loses his matter. The blood and soul powers would work here as well.

Kain can stop them all from moving using TK alone, especially Dante. Mercer may be able to get free using one of his forms. Kain can get out of their reach in a few teleports only to rip their souls and blood from them. Its all easy stuff. Also considering Kain>you, Kain just uses dimentional teleport, 1 move says he beats them all, taking their souls with every strike.

ScreamPaste
Hey, 3:31 shows Kain teleporting, and it takes time. HM!

XanatosForever
In a cutscene, no less.

ScreamPaste
InDEED! And cutscenes > gameplay.

Burning thought
Yes, that teleport is the likes of which he probably will not use. his faster reaver based one is a better teleport. As is his "dematerialise" version in Soul reaver 1.

Then again, that teleport would get him away from them, and serve its purpose.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Burning thought
based on what evidence?

Him taking a supernova does not mean his blood cannot be sprayed throughout his body and cause him to go into cardiac arrest, or make his heart explode. Your trying to claim his blood has some sort of resistance just beacuse he took a little supernova (its not a real supernova, the "sun" was just a lump of magma, not that large.). Yeh I do know this, and Blood shower does not make "burns", it just calls blood and opens the body through sorcery, theres no physical strike involved.



Falliable? hes using a weapon and claiming what it does on first hand knowledge, how is he falliable?

That's the beauty of it, it isn't based on any evidence. Because Blood Shower has never worked on anything with durability.

Blood Shower has never been shown to do that, for one. And for two Kain still has to get it done before Kessler or Ridley stops him. Actually, I'm claiming that Kain can't rip his blood out of his body, because his body took a supernova and Kain doesn't have the ability to pull blood through anything more durable than what, human skin?

Doesn't matter, it still creates a black hole, which takes far more force than Kain can even dream of.

And as for that fallible thing, I find this hilarious, because we made the exact same argument for Ganondorf's knowledge of the Triforce. Yet he was still fallible. Hmm...I smell something fishy. Must be the hosts.

Burning thought
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
That's the beauty of it, it isn't based on any evidence. Because Blood Shower has never worked on anything with durability.

Blood Shower has never been shown to do that, for one. And for two Kain still has to get it done before Kessler or Ridley stops him. Actually, I'm claiming that Kain can't rip his blood out of his body, because his body took a supernova and Kain doesn't have the ability to pull blood through anything more durable than what, human skin?

Doesn't matter, it still creates a black hole, which takes far more force than Kain can even dream of.

And as for that fallible thing, I find this hilarious, because we made the exact same argument for Ganondorf's knowledge of the Triforce. Yet he was still fallible. Hmm...I smell something fishy. Must be the hosts.

So you have no evidence for your assertion that Blood shower is halted by durability?

Your making the assumption that Kain is physically pulling blood through skin through some sort of physical force or something? this is a spell Moocow, that has a specific effect.

Far more force in real life, not in toonforce realm where Stars have cute little eyes and "grow up to be galaxies".

Your argument was different, you assumed Ganon knew everything about the triforce, if your argument was he knew about the exact powers that he has used then you may have a point.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes, that teleport is the likes of which he probably will not use. his faster reaver based one is a better teleport. As is his "dematerialise" version in Soul reaver 1.

Then again, that teleport would get him away from them, and serve its purpose. Seeing as I can't recall these other teleports being used in a cutscene, and there's nothing specified about this one, or mentioned about it prior... You're making assumptions.

BloodRain
Doppel>TK >_> Hm Alex cant be beaten by Kain if im thinking right.

Burning thought
You cant recall? the dematerialise one in Soul reaver 1 is in a cutscene. And what assumptions exactly? Your the one who seems to be making the assertion that this teleport is his only one or something? despite having a reaver based dimentional one thats far quicker.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Burning thought
So you have no evidence for your assertion that Blood shower is halted by durability?

Your making the assumption that Kain is physically pulling blood through skin through some sort of physical force or something? this is a spell Moocow, that has a specific effect.

Far more force in real life, not in toonforce realm where Stars have cute little eyes and "grow up to be galaxies".

Your argument was different, you assumed Ganon knew everything about the triforce, if your argument was he knew about the exact powers that he has used then you may have a point.

Yes, but that doesn't mean I am incorrect. You have no evidence that it isn't. And I believe assuming it would work the same on everything is what we call the no limit fallacy.

Based on what you said he opens the body. It has never opened a durable body.

Must be a point in that somewhere. Ah, there it is. Oh, it's irrelevant. erm

...what? He uses the Triforce firsthand. That's how Kain has all his knowledge, right? There's that fishy smell again.

Nephthys
He is fallible by not being omniscient, as are most beings, which is why when someone says something it is rarely fact unless backed up. For instance if Kain said that the Soul Reaver could even take Gods soul, it would be worthless becuase its never shown that level of power. Just like how its never shown the power to take ouls without making a cut. Not only that but you are basing your entire stance over your interpretation of the word 'strike'. Kain could have misspoke, or simply been wrong, assuming it always takes souls becuase he's never run into someone the sword fails to cut. Either way Kain's opinion does not equal fact.



PIS. Kain couldn't stop Raziel from ripping out his heart and Dante is physically above Raz. Only using characters weakest feats doesn't do justice to their true abilities.



Not before Dante appears to hack his head off. Rememer he needs to do all these things while keeping 2 other people off his back.



Mercer has neither blood nor a soul, and I very much doubt Kain can rip him apart.



Kain has only ever TK'd one person at a time to my knowledge and has to concentrate to do it. No good here. And as soon as Kain materialises to do those attacks Dante shoots him in the face.

Burning thought
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Yes, but that doesn't mean I am incorrect. You have no evidence that it isn't. And I believe assuming it would work the same on everything is what we call the no limit fallacy.

Based on what you said he opens the body. It has never opened a durable body.

Must be a point in that somewhere. Ah, there it is. Oh, it's irrelevant. erm

...what? He uses the Triforce firsthand. That's how Kain has all his knowledge, right? There's that fishy smell again.

The spell is simply a sorcerous ability that drains blood from all enemies in the area. Thats what it does, I am assuming nothing. Your the one who seems to think durability is important despite nothing physical striking the opponent is important without evidence to boot.

Durability is irrelevant, nobody here has feats to suggest their blood vessles can take their own blood pouring throughout the body trying to get to kain, your forgetting the target is the blood, not the body which is why your trying to reach for durability protection.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Doppel>TK >_> Hm Alex cant be beaten by Kain if im thinking right.


Dopel is just a copy cat, a featless one, he will either be hung up in the air like its creator or just left behind with Kratos because its too slow, or cannot make sophisiticated decisions.

Why? Alex cant keep up with a teleporter and he cant survivie being frozen in time and cleaved apart into piecies. His regen only works well when he has humans to absorb.

Son of Sparda
Isn't doppelganger... basically Dante's shadow given sentience though?

Burning thought
Originally posted by Nephthys
He is fallible by not being omniscient, as are most beings, which is why when someone says something it is rarely fact unless backed up. For instance if Kain said that the Soul Reaper could even take Gods soul, it would be worthless becuase its never shown that level of power. Just like how its never shown the power to take ouls without making a cut. Not only that but you are basing your entire stance over your interpretation of the word 'strike'. Kain could have misspoke, or simply been wrong, assuming it always takes souls becuase he's never run into someone the sword fails to cut. Either way Kain's opinion does not equal fact.



PIS. Kain couldn't stop Raziel from ripping out his heart and Dante is physically above Raz. Only using characters weakest feats doesn't do justice to their true abilities.



Not before Dante appears to hack his head off. Rememer he needs to do all these things while keeping 2 other people off his back.



Mercer has neither blood nor a soul, and I very much doubt Kain can rip him apart.



Kain has only ever TK'd one person at a time to my knowledge and has to concentrate to do it. No good here. And as soon as Kain materialises to do those attacks Dante shoots him in the face.


Hes not fallible, your using it completly wrong and have no idea how to use it by the sounds of things. Apprently a guy who is simply claiming what the sword does based on what hes actually seen is fallible, and your example would indeed be fallible but its nothing to compare to what Kains actually saying. kain simply says "on strike" and it makes sense too, why you belive without evidence that Kain has to cut someone to take souls is confusing to say the least.

name the feat that shows Dante is above Raz....and no thats not PIS, Kains is, but Dante actually tries to stop vergil and fails. Its a fair fight and Dante is bested easily by slower moves. Obviously his reaction time is not as fast as his blind slashes.

Off his back when he could teleport multiple times to make sure their all away from him? they have no chance and his blood shower works on all of them. And why? I dont recall him canonically taking much damage.

Dante is not omnicient, he would not know Kain is behind him and would not react in the 0.2 he has before he is dead. And Kain can use TK shackles to hold enemies in the air seperatly. Tbh he would only need to do it to Dante, the other two are easy game.

Kain can also cast Inspire hate to make one of them kill the others, or mind control.

Originally posted by Son of Sparda
Isn't doppelganger... basically Dante's shadow given sentience though?

In the cutscene all we see is its his shadow given some physical form and it can copy him move for move in the slow punches/kicks exactly. Its like a mirror image almost.

BloodRain

Burning thought

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by XanatosForever
So I assume the moments where Kain is dashing and faded out is supposed to be the mist form?

Yes, but that's only one usage of it.

Son of Sparda
Dude... Mercer has thrown much more than a car.

He was stated to have punched through a six feet steel door. Can throw destroyed tanks hundreds of meters into the air... etc.

Doppelganger was also matching Dante blow for blow. That alone should put it at DMC3 Dante level. No idea if it grows in power with him.

Make of that what you will.

ScreamPaste
In gameplay. Can you prove they're even seperate teleports?

Burning thought
Originally posted by Son of Sparda
Dude... Mercer has thrown much more than a car.

He was stated to have punched through a six feet steel door. Can throw destroyed tanks hundreds of meters into the air... etc.

Doppelganger was also matching Dante blow for blow. That alone should put it at DMC3 Dante level. No idea if it grows in power with him.

Make of that what you will.

I have never thrown a destroyed tank in the game, although when Tanks get blown up in Prototype theres not a lot left of them. A full operationral Tank weighs less than the 100 tonnes Raziel can push around, and an Abrams which is what the Prototype tanks are only weighs 60 short tonnes. I think the tanks lose their turrets when destroyed dont they?

It was just copying exactly what Dante was doing. The same exact move. Hence why its a doppelganger, its just a copy cat.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
In gameplay. Can you prove they're even seperate teleports?


Yeh, the one in the cutscene does not use the reaver and is not called the dimentional reaver. The magic Kain uses is white, not green like the dimension reaver as well.

As for the cutscene in SR, Kain does not move his hands or gesture. He just disapears.

Very different teleports.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Burning thought
The spell is simply a sorcerous ability that drains blood from all enemies in the area. Thats what it does, I am assuming nothing. Your the one who seems to think durability is important despite nothing physical striking the opponent is important without evidence to boot.

Durability is irrelevant, nobody here has feats to suggest their blood vessles can take their own blood pouring throughout the body trying to get to kain, your forgetting the target is the blood, not the body which is why your trying to reach for durability protection.


Maybe it's just my body, but I've never had a problem with blood leaking out. This would mean it's perfectly sealed, you know, so the blood doesn't leak. In order to drain it, Kain would have to create some sort of opening to get the blood out. And since he's never made an opening on anything durable, well, you know the rest.

Kain doesn't have feats to suggest he can perfectly manipulate blood in whatever way he chooses. Blood Shower could be like a magnet to something like nails. It pulls it one way and one way only. I cannot use a magnet to throw a nail any direction I choose. There is kind of a cool thing of Bowser never taking any injuries, ever. Even a bruise brings blood to the surface, and Bowser has never been bruised by anything, not even his supernova. His blood vessels are just as ubar as his skin.

Son of Sparda
Yeah but throwing them in the air several hundred meters is bound to warrant a hundred tons of strength at least.

Even if they are some what destroyed.

He can do the same to helicopters too.

Link me to Raziel's 100 ton feat? I admit I haven't played LoK for some time but I don't remember it.

ScreamPaste
This is not proof it's a seperate teleport.

We know: Kain can teleport.
We see him do so in a cutscene. The cutscene teleport has no reason to be a seperate teleport other thna your assertions that it looks different. Kain does not learn this other teleport during the course of LoK. It's never mentioned that he has a seperate teleport.

This must be the same teleport he already has. You are assuming he has a whole new teleport based on difference between gameplay and a cutscene. The problem is that obviously the cutscene takes precedence, and there's no proof of a seperate teleport.

Imagine Link had ... Purple! Fire arrows in a cutscene, it would be wrong for me to assume these were new and seperate fire arrows, and that Link has a new spell. This is what you are doing.

No assumptions. Kain's teleportation takes time.

BloodRain
Originally posted by Burning thought
This has not been proven, it just seems to copy what he does but theres nothing to suggest is just as strong, as fast, as clever etc

Based on what? I think the heaviest thing Mercer can lift is a car or something from what I can recall. And Mercer cannot reform without mass, if his body parts were torn off, like Kain he would not be able to regenerate physically.

No thats not true, Kain did nothing to stop Raziels obvious attack which was indeed very slow and much slower than what Kain has reacted to before. Kain was also badly weakened after taking the reaver to the chest. Iirc Dante was not harmed before that point and actually tried, he was bested by a better swordsman. Theres no room for PIS. vergil was superior to him at the time. Raziel on the other hand is weaker in every way than Kain.
Punches with the same strength, even gameplay attacks have the same damage as Dantes attacks. Nothing disproves this.

Raz; Can manage to lift 45tons. Alex: 'Easily' carries cars, helicopters and tanks (70tons). Why easily? Because he can carry a tank and still run and jump at full speed. Throwing tanks is childs-play for him.

Dante had a fight with Vergil... and you think he wasn't hurt? Wouldn't gloat about loosing to a weaker foe. Stabbed by a slower attack which later made him gain powers, im seeing PIS.

Burning thought
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Maybe it's just my body, but I've never had a problem with blood leaking out. This would mean it's perfectly sealed, you know, so the blood doesn't leak. In order to drain it, Kain would have to create some sort of opening to get the blood out. And since he's never made an opening on anything durable, well, you know the rest.

Kain doesn't have feats to suggest he can perfectly manipulate blood in whatever way he chooses. Blood Shower could be like a magnet to something like nails. It pulls it one way and one way only. I cannot use a magnet to throw a nail any direction I choose. There is kind of a cool thing of Bowser never taking any injuries, ever. Even a bruise brings blood to the surface, and Bowser has never been bruised by anything, not even his supernova. His blood vessels are just as ubar as his skin.

No it would just mean that blood does not push towards an entity whos forcing it towards them. And the opening assuming the blood doesnt just burst through soft tissue like under the eyes, inside the nose etc which has no feats then the magic Kain uses may just open the body for the blood to run towards Kain, through sorcery, not physical harm.

No he has feats of moving blood however, which is what hes doing here. And assuming your right, its a magnet, if the metal the magnet is pulling cannot get to the magnet then its still going to be pushing against the surface. No one here is going to survive all their blood pouring through their body to one side, they would die almost instantly. Has Mario ever bled? or Peach?

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This is not proof it's a seperate teleport.

We know: Kain can teleport.
We see him do so in a cutscene. The cutscene teleport has no reason to be a seperate teleport other thna your assertions that it looks different. Kain does not learn this other teleport during the course of LoK. It's never mentioned that he has a seperate teleport.

This must be the same teleport he already has. You are assuming he has a whole new teleport based on difference between gameplay and a cutscene. The problem is that obviously the cutscene takes precedence, and there's no proof of a seperate teleport.

Imagine Link had ... Purple! Fire arrows in a cutscene, it would be wrong for me to assume these were new and seperate fire arrows, and that Link has a new spell. This is what you are doing.

No assumptions. Kain's teleportation takes time. Cause it got skipped.

Burning thought
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This is not proof it's a seperate teleport.

We know: Kain can teleport.
We see him do so in a cutscene. The cutscene teleport has no reason to be a seperate teleport other thna your assertions that it looks different. Kain does not learn this other teleport during the course of LoK. It's never mentioned that he has a seperate teleport.

This must be the same teleport he already has. You are assuming he has a whole new teleport based on difference between gameplay and a cutscene. The problem is that obviously the cutscene takes precedence, and there's no proof of a seperate teleport.

Imagine Link had ... Purple! Fire arrows in a cutscene, it would be wrong for me to assume these were new and seperate fire arrows, and that Link has a new spell. This is what you are doing.

No assumptions. Kain's teleportation takes time.

Two cutscenes, one gameplay supported by canon, three different teleports.

Your assertion that their the same teleport, despite Kain using the dimension reaver to do the green one which is completly different is unfounded.

No I am not, I am saying that a teleport thats far faster, used differently and uses unique animation and comes from a sword that Kains not using in the cutscene is different, your trying to reach for it being the same.

Originally posted by Son of Sparda
Yeah but throwing them in the air several hundred meters is bound to warrant a hundred tons of strength at least.

Even if they are some what destroyed.

He can do the same to helicopters too.

Link me to Raziel's 100 ton feat? I admit I haven't played LoK for some time but I don't remember it.

Yeh I guess so.

VWFp_M6BHpc&feature=related

These blocks have been calculated to be about 45+ tonnes each in weight, Raziel can push them around with ease and his lightest tap can send it sliding along a meter or so. He pushes two on top of eachother as well, although he does not pick them up and throw them like Mercer can throw Tank wreckage.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Burning thought
No it would just mean that blood does not push towards an entity whos forcing it towards them. And the opening assuming the blood doesnt just burst through soft tissue like under the eyes, inside the nose etc which has no feats then the magic Kain uses may just open the body for the blood to run towards Kain, through sorcery, not physical harm.

No he has feats of moving blood however, which is what hes doing here. And assuming your right, its a magnet, if the metal the magnet is pulling cannot get to the magnet then its still going to be pushing against the surface. No one here is going to survive all their blood pouring through their body to one side, they would die almost instantly. Has Mario ever bled? or Peach?

That's a problem, because Bowser doesn't have any soft tissue under his eyes or inside his nose. It wasn't me who first suggested the opening, either, it was you.

Kain would still have to get it out of his blood vessels and veins. And Kain's spell has no feats above making it happen to a normal human.

No, Mario and Peach do not bleed.

Burning thought
Originally posted by BloodRain
Punches with the same strength, even gameplay attacks have the same damage as Dantes attacks. Nothing disproves this.

Raz; Can manage to lift 45tons. Alex: 'Easily' carries cars, helicopters and tanks (70tons). Why easily? Because he can carry a tank and still run and jump at full speed. Throwing tanks is childs-play for him.

Dante had a fight with Vergil... and you think he wasn't hurt? Wouldn't gloat about loosing to a weaker foe. Stabbed by a slower attack which later made him gain powers, im seeing PIS.

Nothing proves that Doppel is as intelligent, fast and skilled as Dante. One cutscene proves it can copy a few simple moves.

He can also easily push 100 tonnes, and he does not carry tanks. He carries part of a tank wreckage which is about 60-67 tonnes. This does not put him far above Kain, if at all and Kains strikes will still hurt him a lot more.

We dont see him get hurt until he gets impaled. I would if its to prove the point of PIS. it happened twice, a slower attack disarmed him, and a slow impale defeated him.


Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
That's a problem, because Bowser doesn't have any soft tissue under his eyes or inside his nose. It wasn't me who first suggested the opening, either, it was you.

Kain would still have to get it out of his blood vessels and veins. And Kain's spell has no feats above making it happen to a normal human.

No, Mario and Peach do not bleed.


Proof for these claims? he has eyes, therefore he has skin under them, theres a lot softer tissue inside the body and blood would not even have to break veins to screw him up.

Its affect on a normal human would be the same here, its a sorcerous power Bowser has never faced. Hes doomed.

didnt think so.

ScreamPaste
The numbers for those blocks let Raziel lift I think 43 tons over his head if I remember right, tops. Maybe 45.

but yeah, there's no evidence the cutscene teleport is a new teleport or seperate teleport. Still waiting for you to prove it's seperate.

Burning thought
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The numbers for those blocks let Raziel lift I think 43 tons over his head if I remember right, tops. Maybe 45.

but yeah, there's no evidence the cutscene teleport is a new teleport or seperate teleport. Still waiting for you to prove it's seperate.

based on the easy moving of one block. Despite him easily moving 2 on top of eachother and pushing htem along with ease.

Yes there is. Your just ignoring evidence like you usually do. You cannot apprently see the difference between a Reaver invoked spell that takes the form of green magic in comparison to a white hand movement in the cutscene or simply disapearing in the SR 1 cutscene. if you cant see differences like that then theres no good shwing you anything.

Reaching for this is not going to help you btw. Kain can still even use the white magic teleport to do exactly the same as the green, only slightly slower.

ArtificialGlory
Both the "green" teleport and the one he uses after the fight with the Elder God have about the same start-up time.

Nephthys
I think you don't know what it means, which is that his words are not absolute and have reason to be doubted. Kain never takes someones soul without slicing them. Trying to say he can is nothing but speculation without a shred of real evidence. Not to mention, as I've said, its just your interpretation of a word.



Dante is a casual bullet timer, and can shatter rock with a fist.



First of all, in the cutscene I'm watching Dante is staggered and can't defend himself. Second on all, Vergil is fast enough to scoop bullets out of the air, being blitzed by him is no shame. And Kain gets put on his ass by a weak-ass slow-ass slash by Raziel before he gets his heart ripped out anyway.



Yes, Kain is no bullet-timer, and sooner or later Dante will hit him, he's fast enough to find Kain whereever he teleports. It's very doubtful that he'll get a shower off. Doesn't he need to be very close to use it? And it won't work on Mercer at least, who has no blood. And he's durable enough to survive direct hits from hellfire missiles, tank shells and hunters, notably some hunters are stronger than Alex who can toss tanks around. He also seems completely unaffected from falls; even ones from the top levels of skyscrapers. Kain has no chance of hurting him.



Dante can cut bullets in half from 3 meters away. Average handgun speed is 1100 feet per second. You do the math. no expression



I don't know if it'll work, though its doubtful he'll be able to before DAnte blows his head off.

ScreamPaste
No, based on Raziel's most impressive showing of strength in that entire scene, when he tosses the blocks a short distance, with a clear show of effort.

Irony. Pot, kettle, black, no u, ect.
Because a gameplay animation and a cutscene animation can be different, and often are. For example, in LoZ, the ending blow in a cutscene causes Link to jump far higher and do a flip, ect, while in gameplay it's more modest. Also:

A.G. has highlighted a key similarity.


The teleport is too slow to be practical against fast opponents.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Burning thought
Proof for these claims? he has eyes, therefore he has skin under them, theres a lot softer tissue inside the body and blood would not even have to break veins to screw him up.

Its affect on a normal human would be the same here, its a sorcerous power Bowser has never faced. Hes doomed.

didnt think so.

Do you really have to ask? Supernova. Said explosion is a lot more than just pure force. Yeah, it would actually. In order for that to do anything at all Kain would have to maintain the pull, or else the spell would fail and Bowser's body will resume it's normal movement. For Kain to stand there, Ridley and Kessler have to not move at all. To be blunt, I doubt Kain can win this. He only has five minutes to take down Kessler who is easily his peer in speed, if not his superior. And Ridley who's flight speed shits on Kain. Technically these guys can just stall until the Fuzzys arrive, effectively screwing over everyone.

This sorcerous power has never faced durability. Ever. It's doomed.

Wasn't even relevant.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Nephthys
I think you don't know what it means, which is that his words are not absolute and have reason to be doubted. Kain never takes someones soul without without slicing them. Trying to say he can is nothing but speculation without a shred or real evidence. Nottomention, as I've said, its just your interpretation of a word.



Dante is a casual bullet timer, and can shatter rock with a fist.



First of all, in the cutscene I'm watching Dante is staggered and can't defend himself. Second on all, Vergil is fast enough to scoop bullets out of the air, being blitzed by him is no shame. And Kain gets put on his ass by a weak-ass slow-ass slash by Raziel before he gets his heart ripped out anyway.



Yes, Kain is no bullet-timer, and sooner or later Dante will hit him, he's fast enough to find Kain whereever he teleports. It's very doubtful that he'll get a shower off, doesn't he need to be very close. and it won't work on Mercer at least, who has no blood. And he's durable enough to survive direct hits from hellfire missiles, tank shells and hunters, notably some hunters a stronger than Alex who can toss tanks around. He also seems completely unaffected from falls; even ones from the top levels of skyscrapers. Kain has no chance of hurting him.



Dante can cut bullets in half from 3 meters away. Average handgun speed is 1100 feet per second. You do the math. no expression



I don't know if it'll work, though its doubtful he'll be able to before DAnte blows his head off.

Ofc I do, I also know that someone who uses a power first hand, obviously knows what its doing because he can see it happen. If he can take the souls of enemies just by striking with a sword hes got in his hands then its not fallible. If he claimed he can do it to anyone and anything regardless of spiritual resistances then he would be fallible. Kain never takes someones soul without slicing them, therefore thats evidence he cannot take their souls without slicing them? No, wrong....

kain and especially when using the reaver is more than strong enough to slice through most in his universe.


Dante predicts aim and moves, anyone can predict the aim of someone else, the only time he did otherwise I think was against lady but he hardly moved tbh. Shatter rock? when, the little statue whos head just exploded?

After being disarmed Dante staggers yet still actually attempts to stop verigl and fails, you see his hands on Vergils sword. Weak? based on what, Kain can take Raziels strikes without a scratch on him, the reaver and w/e punishment Raziel puts on Kain in their fight weakens him enough. Kain then shows PIS by doing nothing.

hes never done so, Kain can teleport too quickly for Dante to react to. Kains average reaction time is 0.3 seconds beyond the average for a human and Kain can make concious movements in this time as well. I have not seen such from Dante who is fast but not as good at reactions. Hes never going to turn around his whole body to somehow find Kain behind him and strike/block before Kan kills him in 0.2. In what cutscene do we see this? weve seen him take one missle, I dont see it beating the PSI of 100< tonnes strength behind a sword.

Average bullet from a gun, Dantes reactions are slower than the speed of his bullets.

Yes because Dantes guns have shown to be able to deal that much damage to a guy who can take tens of thousands of tonnes of PSI from Raziel without a scratch. Bullets as I pointed out in another thread, even the biggest magnums only make a small amount of PSI in comparison.

BloodRain
Originally posted by Burning thought
Nothing proves that Doppel is as intelligent, fast and skilled as Dante. One cutscene proves it can copy a few simple moves.

He can also easily push 100 tonnes, and he does not carry tanks. He carries part of a tank wreckage which is about 60-67 tonnes. This does not put him far above Kain, if at all and Kains strikes will still hurt him a lot more.

We dont see him get hurt until he gets impaled. I would if its to prove the point of PIS. it happened twice, a slower attack disarmed him, and a slow impale defeated him.

Cutscene proves that it can do what Dante can (in combat at least) Seeing as it was a boss, its sentient. Even the gameplay shows that the strength is even.

Raz's 'lift' strength is 45tons, Kains 50. Alex easily 60tons. Raz slowly pushes them, Alex runs faster then cars/up buildings while carrying a tank and can throws them far.

Yeah, the Stupidity Induced for the Plot is like that.

Burning thought
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
No, based on Raziel's most impressive showing of strength in that entire scene, when he tosses the blocks a short distance, with a clear show of effort.

Irony. Pot, kettle, black, no u, ect.
Because a gameplay animation and a cutscene animation can be different, and often are. For example, in LoZ, the ending blow in a cutscene causes Link to jump far higher and do a flip, ect, while in gameplay it's more modest. Also:

A.G. has highlighted a key similarity.


The teleport is too slow to be practical against fast opponents.

There was no effort, your reaching. Raziel pushes with a prod one of those blocks a meter or so with ease as well.

Colours, source of power of teleport, all unique.

Which makes your argument pretty pointless anyway.

Obviously not, because it can strike at 0.2 from random angles and places and most of those here have few reaction time feats to put them above human apart from perhaps Dante.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Cutscene proves that it can do what Dante can (in combat at least) Seeing as it was a boss, its sentient. Even the gameplay shows that the strength is even.

Raz's 'lift' strength is 45tons, Kains 50. Alex easily 60tons. Raz slowly pushes them, Alex runs faster then cars/up buildings while carrying a tank and can throws them far.

Yeah, the Stupidity Induced for the Plot is like that.

It can copy what basic moves Dante displated.

False, and Kains would be far more as Raziel can do all this easily, and Kain can beat Raz easily.

Dante was not stupid at any point, he even attempted to stop vergil. He was outmatched by someone superior. Kain was beaten by someone vastly inferior, PIS.

ArtificialGlory
Lmao. I just noticed an Ad at the bottom of the page saying "Lower Your Blood Pressure."

Son of Sparda
Dante can actually shoot FAMAS rounds out of the air with his own at point blank range.

He can also catch bullets with his teeth

FAMAS rounds have a MV of mach 2

so yeah

Burning thought
Reacting/predicting ladies aim, again....

Although I would like to see him catch bullets with his teeth.

ScreamPaste
...haermm Raziel puts his whole body behind the "prod" and barely sends the block more than a meter. You're the one who is reaching.
Colour, you have no proof of source of power.
No it makes your argument pointless. Kain's canon teleport is slow.
In gameplay, not in canon.

Nephthys
BT, I think you need to watch the scene again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsbrwIvDKIE

Also, what does PSI mean?

Burning thought
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
...haermm Raziel puts his whole body behind the "prod" and barely sends the block more than a meter. You're the one who is reaching.
Colour, you have no proof of source of power.
No it makes your argument pointless. Kain's canon teleport is slow.
In gameplay, not in canon.

He just gives it a light push and it moves along easily. He shows no effort.

yes I do, dimension reaver is for the green teleport. Dimentional, its a completly seperate ability that Kain gains halfway through the game.

According to A.G, its just as fast to start.

Samr thing in this case, a scripted player characters ability with outlined use.

Son of Sparda
What, he flat out shoots them after she fires them at him.

That is bullet timing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8YUWC-tWNY

As for Dante catching bullets with his teeth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAOq6nW1_Cs

the second bullet, you hear the clang and then he spits it out

Nephthys
DMC is so lame.

BloodRain
Originally posted by Burning thought
It can copy what basic moves Dante displated.

False, and Kains would be far more as Raziel can do all this easily, and Kain can beat Raz easily.

Dante was not stupid at any point, he even attempted to stop vergil. He was outmatched by someone superior. Kain was beaten by someone vastly inferior, PIS.
And shown in gameplay, all of his moves are available. Capable.

Lifting a 45ton block >>> Casually running faster then cars with a tank over your head.

PIS not CIS, this was a persons mistake for the plot.
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Lmao. I just noticed an Ad at the bottom of the page saying "Lower Your Blood Pressure."
Mine says 'sign up to BT' lol

Son of Sparda
1st game was brill

Those were the days, before Dante became a B-movie cowboy. sad

Burning thought
Originally posted by Son of Sparda
What, he flat out shoots them after she fires them at him.

That is bullet timing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8YUWC-tWNY

As for Dante catching bullets with his teeth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAOq6nW1_Cs

the second bullet, you hear the clang and then he spits it out


dante does not have to react just to the bullet in the first part of the scene. He can determine her footsteps although I admit, its probably his best feat. however dodging a bullet and dodging a large sword is completly different.

Ladies and Dantes guns barrels were prob only a few inches away, the bullets hardly had time to travel in a non predictable pattern.

Fair enough.


Originally posted by Nephthys
BT, I think you need to watch the scene again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsbrwIvDKIE

Also, what does PSI mean?

Pounds per square inch. Its multiplied massively at a sharp point like Kains sword tip and Raziels claws.

Also I remember the scene correctly, at 0:55 we see them just pushing swords together, indicating they likely cannot put much strength into their slashes at speeds. 1:11 shows us Dante is holding the sword already, he was just too slow to react.

Just shows how easily Dante is distracted as well.

Burning thought
Originally posted by BloodRain
And shown in gameplay, all of his moves are available. Capable.

Lifting a 45ton block >>> Casually running faster then cars with a tank over your head.

PIS not CIS, this was a persons mistake for the plot.

Mine says 'sign up to BT' lol

I would like to see this.


Pushing 100 tonnes still shows Raziel has more weight/strength, just not as much technique, balance and grip. And btw, can you show me this? carrying tank wreckage is something I never did myself.

What mistake? there was no mistake, Dante was just beaten fair and square by someone who was better than him. Show me what indicates Dante is superior to vergil at that point?

ScreamPaste
I was stupid enough to try and teach this sort of thing to BT, and he takes it way out of context, bungles numbers, ect..


No it doesn't. no expression

Son of Sparda
He jumped after she fired and he shot the bullets. Looked fairly obvious too me.

Want combat speed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1JZkoxPjA8

1 minute in.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Do you really have to ask? Supernova. Said explosion is a lot more than just pure force. Yeah, it would actually. In order for that to do anything at all Kain would have to maintain the pull, or else the spell would fail and Bowser's body will resume it's normal movement. For Kain to stand there, Ridley and Kessler have to not move at all. To be blunt, I doubt Kain can win this. He only has five minutes to take down Kessler who is easily his peer in speed, if not his superior. And Ridley who's flight speed shits on Kain. Technically these guys can just stall until the Fuzzys arrive, effectively screwing over everyone.

This sorcerous power has never faced durability. Ever. It's doomed.

Wasn't even relevant.

Because it was missed/ignored the first time.

Son of Sparda
Vergil was superior to Dante in 1st fight
Equal in second
equal in third, vergil got sloppy due to plans failing etc: thats why Dante won

Burning thought
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Do you really have to ask? Supernova. Said explosion is a lot more than just pure force. Yeah, it would actually. In order for that to do anything at all Kain would have to maintain the pull, or else the spell would fail and Bowser's body will resume it's normal movement. For Kain to stand there, Ridley and Kessler have to not move at all. To be blunt, I doubt Kain can win this. He only has five minutes to take down Kessler who is easily his peer in speed, if not his superior. And Ridley who's flight speed shits on Kain. Technically these guys can just stall until the Fuzzys arrive, effectively screwing over everyone.

This sorcerous power has never faced durability. Ever. It's doomed.

Wasn't even relevant.

This is not a real supernova, because the sun in question is not a real sun. No it would just kill Bowser instantly, and anyone nearby, their hearts would be splattered by all its blood spraying through wrong arteries and veins etc.

Irrelevant point is irrelevant. Durability is never even implied or mentioned by the spell.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I was stupid enough to try and teach this sort of thing to BT, and he takes it way out of context, bungles numbers, ect..


No it doesn't. no expression

Nah, its a simple calculation. The only "bungled" numbers are the ones that do not slide in your favour it seems.

100 tonnes>under 40/50.

Originally posted by Son of Sparda
He jumped after she fired and he shot the bullets. Looked fairly obvious too me.

Want combat speed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1JZkoxPjA8

1 minute in.

Same fight as argued earlier. Dante was outperformed by a slower attack, the quick, inaccurate and likely weak attacks did little.

It seems to me based on that alone is that Dante is outperformed when he actually faces strength and force rather than quick jabs.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Burning thought
This is not a real supernova, because the sun in question is not a real sun. No it would just kill Bowser instantly, and anyone nearby, their hearts would be splattered by all its blood spraying through wrong arteries and veins etc.

Irrelevant point is irrelevant. Durability is never even implied or mentioned by the spell.


Doesn't matter. The explosion still created a black hole, making it as powerful as a supernova. You're ignoring the durability points, and the point that Kain does not have the ability to control blood that well.

None of the things you claim Kain can do are implied or mentioned either. Regardless, durability remains a thorn in Blood Shower's sided. Similar to how a gentle breeze remains a thorn in the side of Mist form.

ScreamPaste
And yet you screw it up.

Pushing 100 slowly < carrying 60 easily. Let's scale this down to human terms. If I can run around holding 60 lbs over my head, and you can slowly push 100 across the ground, who is stronger? I am.

Son of Sparda
No he just ran out of stamina, hell he hadn't even awakened his demonic heritage yet until Rebellion was shoved into his chest.

He just bulldozed through several floors of fodder and high level demons. He didn't get a chance to rest before fighting Vergil.

well from what i remember anyway

Burning thought
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
And yet you screw it up.

Pushing 100 slowly < carrying 60 easily. Let's scale this down to human terms. If I can run around holding 60 lbs over my head, and you can slowly push 100 across the ground, who is stronger? I am.

Nope, you even said in PM that I was doing it correctly. Its funny how i only got it wrong when I got numbers that do not work with yours or that give Kain advantages, you dont like that lol.

Pushing 100 with ease>carrying 50 with ease especially when concerning fighting. Why would you be stronger? it depends on the object, balance, stamina etc not just strength.


Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Doesn't matter. The explosion still created a black hole, making it as powerful as a supernova. You're ignoring the durability points, and the point that Kain does not have the ability to control blood that well.

None of the things you claim Kain can do are implied or mentioned either. Regardless, durability remains a thorn in Blood Shower's sided. Similar to how a gentle breeze remains a thorn in the side of Mist form.

Assuming ofc that, unlike the sun, the stars and the origin of galaxies and the fact you can breathe in space in this game the blackhole was anywhere near as powerful as a real one. He can move blood, theres nothing that hard to get about this, blood shower brings blood to Kain, durability is not even mentioned and because its a magic spell its irrelevent tbh. Bowser could have blood pouring from his ass and nose for all Kain cares.

Sounds like another baseless point, as if your trying to get me back for my amazingly awsome counter to your last statement. Your getting frustrated and angry again, if you dont want to debate dont, just leave and dont bother with your half assed arguments and trolling.

ScreamPaste
You did one part correctly. Once. How about when low numbers like 180 000 get turned into 1 500 000 by your poor math? That's not bias, that's you doing it wrong.

Burning thought
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You did one part correctly. Once. How about when low numbers like 180 000 get turned into 1 500 000 by your poor math? That's not bias, that's you doing it wrong.

The one part that pretty much makes up the whole calculation. Once I have the calculation, all I have to do is put in the figuires. My math was fine, I have your calculation, I have the actual feat, theres nothing more to it. I dont know where you got those random figuires from to try and discredit me, from thin air? probably is my guess.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Burning thought
Assuming ofc that, unlike the sun, the stars and the origin of galaxies and the fact you can breathe in space in this game the blackhole was anywhere near as powerful as a real one. He can move blood, theres nothing that hard to get about this, blood shower brings blood to Kain, durability is not even mentioned and because its a magic spell its irrelevent tbh. Bowser could have blood pouring from his ass and nose for all Kain cares.

Sounds like another baseless point, as if your trying to get me back for my amazingly awsome counter to your last statement. Your getting frustrated and angry again, if you dont want to debate dont, just leave and dont bother with your half assed arguments and trolling.

Mario can breathe in space because of the Luma under his hat. And yes, I agreed that he can move blood, but only towards him. He cannot manipulate it in any direction he wishes. There's nothing that hard to get about it. It isn't irrelevant, because there are things in the way of the blood. You cannot ignore that. That you would choose to try shows your bias.

You lacked a counter argument.

You also remain bad at interpreting language. I mentioned this yesterday, it's ironic that you choose to argue for LoK games when they use language so figuratively. I am about as far from angry and frustrated as I can be.

I also haven't trolled you at all. no expression

If you wish to continue ignoring the rest of the team then let's just move on to the next round. Do you think Kain can kill Rundas, Articuno and Ice Mario in under five minutes? Does he have any ice spells?

ScreamPaste
Doing it correctly once doesn't mean you've done it twice.

Also, those numbers are:
180 000 Raziels strength based on his best feat.
1 500 000 Kain's strength you suggested at one point. You added over a million joules to Raziel's strength. This is obviously wrong.

Burning thought
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Mario can breathe in space because of the Luma under his hat. And yes, I agreed that he can move blood, but only towards him. He cannot manipulate it in any direction he wishes. There's nothing that hard to get about it. It isn't irrelevant, because there are things in the way of the blood. You cannot ignore that. That you would choose to try shows your bias.

You lacked a counter argument.

You also remain bad at interpreting language. I mentioned this yesterday, it's ironic that you choose to argue for LoK games when they use language so figuratively. I am about as far from angry and frustrated as I can be.

I also haven't trolled you at all. no expression

If you wish to continue ignoring the rest of the team then let's just move on to the next round. Do you think Kain can kill Rundas, Articuno and Ice Mario in under five minutes? Does he have any ice spells?


no your adding things that are not there, your addiing weaknesses and limits in degrees that make no sense. Its like using a fireball spell and you asking me to prove its beaten someone with water resistance, durability is a non factor. Kains shown he can move blood, blood will, assuming it works the way you think (magnet) move up and down arteries, every artery, through the heart, into the brain etc to try and get to kain. ofc I disagree, my assumption is different and more likely.

Yes you have, with all your ignoring of previous points. Anyone can do that, over and over again.

No I dont think Kain has any ice spells. He has energy, lightning but no ice.

Burning thought
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Doing it correctly once doesn't mean you've done it twice.

Also, those numbers are:
180 000 Raziels strength based on his best feat.
1 500 000 Kain's strength you suggested at one point. You added over a million joules to Raziel's strength. This is obviously wrong.

Its the same calculation only with different figuires. Getting PSI is still the same. The fact I am using a different figuire would not change what I have to do with it.

I dont remember doing that, unless ofc I had a different number for Raziels "best feat" than you do. And ofc, if I took into account speed and PSI for the final figuires. I have a spreasheet in front of me now with my old workings, theres no 180k in there.

ScreamPaste
Because I was the one who gave you 180K.

Lemme go find the post.

Burning thought
The only thing that mires my figuires is your daft 1/144th of an inch calculation for the tip of a sword.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
K, using some rough numbers:

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/razielexample.jpg
This took about 0.7-0.8 of a second, by my admittedly fallible human ability to measure it. You gave a mass of 50 tons.

The block moved approx 1 meter. So, 1 meter in 0.7 seconds = 10 meters in 7 seconds. 10/7 = 1.42847 meters per second. so.. in our example he'd be unable to lift it over his head, but let's use the example where he threw a block up higher (1:09), and call it 2 meters. (hard to tell, the camera is behind Raziel.) This raises it to 2.85 meters per second. So, he'd be able to lift /about/ that much weight overhead.

Let's go ahead anyway:

If K = 1/2mv^2 then K = 184215.2012... joules. (lulz, 2012!)

Now, we know his joule output, K, so we can do...

m=2K/v^2

K = 184215.20126615
and v = 3 (what we decided a character coudl lift over their head.)

so m =:

40936.711392478 kilogram
90250.000000001 pound
40.936711392478 ton metric
45.125000000001 ton short

For Raziel to lift.


Above.




Actually, it was 144th of a square foot is a square inch, which yields PSI.

Burning thought
Dividing by that number gives huge and unreal figuires.

Nephthys
I take it you're judging the blocks weight on the closest looking type of rock? As well as assuming its not hollow?

At BT then.

ScreamPaste
Only if you forget to divide the force as well.



Ask BT, he said it was 50 tons, I just ran with it for the sake of doing math. I should math the blocks myself sometime.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Burning thought
no your adding things that are not there, your addiing weaknesses and limits in degrees that make no sense. Its like using a fireball spell and you asking me to prove its beaten someone with water resistance, durability is a non factor. Kains shown he can move blood, blood will, assuming it works the way you think (magnet) move up and down arteries, every artery, through the heart, into the brain etc to try and get to kain. ofc I disagree, my assumption is different and more likely.

Yes you have, with all your ignoring of previous points. Anyone can do that, over and over again.

No I dont think Kain has any ice spells. He has energy, lightning but no ice.

How is that like it at all? I'm telling you to prove that someone who has pulled blood through human flesh can pull it through something stronger than human flesh. Even a centimeter of steel would do. There's an extreme difference. And assuming you are right, it means Kain's blood pulling strength is even weaker, as it would follow the path of the veins to the front of a person's body because it can't escape, to where he created an opening on the person's body. So yeah, the veins of a human would be sufficient to hold blood away. no expression

I haven't ignored anything. Notice how my replies are not always the same, they merely work towards the same point.

Without ice spells, Kain is extremely vulnerable to Metroids. They'll avoid Mario all together because he's coated in ice, Articuno as well is extremely cold. Rundas can put up some ice armor, so they'll likely avoid him as well. That means it'll end up being Kain vs Metroids. So unless he can muster the power of some Samus weaponry, he is completely boned.

So, Kain has to kill them all in 5 minutes.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Nephthys
I take it you're judging the blocks weight on the closest looking type of rock? As well as assuming its not hollow?

We (me and bloodrain) judged it on what materials are usually used for building with. Found out the desnity based on height and etc etc.

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