Darth Maul vs Kas'im

Shoes

Originally posted by Nephthys
(I'm assuming thats what you're basing it on as you have so far just said Kas'im>Maul over and over).

You misunderstand completely. I am saying that ares' Maul > Qui-Gon > Bane > Kas'im can't work, on many levels, PIS included. Bane is obviously more powerful than Maul in the force. Come on, we don't exactly have much to work with here, but what we do know, is that Kas'im was able to block Bane's TK, leaving Bane exhausted and dead if not for the temple. To me, that indicates Kas'im's force superiority over Maul, as anything he will throw at him will be shrugged off just as easily. Unless you can prove to me that Maul has demonstrated anything spectacular with the force, a feat that trumps Bane, I will assume that Kas'im is superior in terms of force power.

The rest is simple. Maul is a beast, true, but he's not even in the same league as Kas'im, saber-wise. I mean his mastery of all forms is obviously a better feat than whatever proficiency Maul has in Juyo. And so what if he doesn't have the advantage of an unfamiliar form? His blade work more than makes up for it. Even Bane acknowledges that Kas'im was the greatest swordsman in the galaxy.

tl;dr: his defending of Bane's TK, demonstrating his force superiority (or at least adequate defense against Maul), and his absolute mastery of the blade, seem to be beyond Maul.

Dr McBeefington

1. Kasim's mastery aside, you have to be a master of multiple forms to master Juyo.

2. Bane doesn't acknowledge that, I believe it's the author's point of view.

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by Shoes
You misunderstand completely. I am saying that ares' Maul > Qui-Gon > Bane > Kas'im can't work, on many levels, PIS included. Bane is obviously more powerful than Maul in the force. Come on, we don't exactly have much to work with here, but what we do know, is that Kas'im was able to block Bane's TK, leaving Bane exhausted and dead if not for the temple. To me, that indicates Kas'im's force superiority over Maul, as anything he will throw at him will be shrugged off just as easily. Unless you can prove to me that Maul has demonstrated anything spectacular with the force, a feat that trumps Bane, I will assume that Kas'im is superior in terms of force power.

The rest is simple. Maul is a beast, true, but he's not even in the same league as Kas'im, saber-wise. I mean his mastery of all forms is obviously a better feat than whatever proficiency Maul has in Juyo. And so what if he doesn't have the advantage of an unfamiliar form? His blade work more than makes up for it. Even Bane acknowledges that Kas'im was the greatest swordsman in the galaxy.

tl;dr: his defending of Bane's TK, demonstrating his force superiority (or at least adequate defense against Maul), and his absolute mastery of the blade, seem to be beyond Maul. Kas'im's good force defense is not going to help him out much against Maul since Maul hardly ever uses TK during a duel. Kas'im, having good defenses against TK, does not make him a force titan. It just makes him hard to overcome for force titans like Bane. Tell us how blocking a powerful force wave is going to win him a battle against Maul.

Maul did defeat Anoon, who was said to be the best the galaxy had to offer as far as technical skill and mastery. Maul himself had high end mastery of multiple forms. So this fight is a lot closer than what you make it out to be. So far this debate seems to be in Maul's favor.

Shoes

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kas'im's good force defense is not going to help him out much against Maul since Maul hardly ever uses TK during a duel. Kas'im, having good defenses against TK, does not make him a force titan. It just makes him hard to overcome for force titans like Bane. Tell us how blocking a powerful force wave is going to win him a battle against Maul.

What am I reading? This act demonstrates how powerful he is, in terms of force power. That's exactly it. Maul doesn't stand a chance in the force compared to Kas'im. See, this is also why Bane was beating Kas'im before he switched to two-handed saber combat. Even with all his instruction, all his technical skill, Bane was simply stronger in the force. So obviously their force power will be a contributing factor in the fight, as it boosts their saber combat prowess.

Irrelevant. Kas'im has mastered and perfected every form, right down to the last detail. This, coupled with his force power, seems to be in Kas'im's favor.

Also disregard this please. I remembered 16 minutes after I posted.

truejedi

I haven't really seen anything in Maul's favor yet. The best he seems to be able to do is have accolades that can put him in the discussion. I see nothing that gives him an advantage.

Lord Lucien

Originally posted by truejedi
I haven't really seen anything in Maul's favor yet. The best he seems to be able to do is have accolades that can put him in the discussion. I see nothing that gives him an advantage. Kind of like this?

Shoes

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Didn't you just answer your own question below? whistle

I was referring to Maul.

Then I remembered. So I posted the following.

SIDIOUS 66

Dr McBeefington

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Maul has a couple of accolades and victories to his name. Kas'im has one accolade.

So what? This isn't feat wars.

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
So what? This isn't feat wars. Are you new? This is a vs forum, feats and accolades are to be considered. Is this accolades only?

Dr McBeefington

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Are you new? This is a vs forum, feats and accolades are to be considered. Is this accolades only?

Yes, they're to be considered. But this was your entire post.

One can infer that you're giving the edge to Maul because he has more known feats to his name than Kas'im. That is what we call feat wars. smile

Shoes

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Maul has a couple of accolades and victories to his name. Kas'im has one accolade.

confused

What? You're saying that because there are more books written about Maul, he automatically wins? I may be new to this forum, but this is utter nonsense. It's been explained to you that:

-Kas'im > Maul in terms of force power

-Kas'im > Maul in saber combat

-Force power is a contributing factor to saber combat

How can you possibly say that Maul could win? Not logical in the least. If, and this is a pretty big if, Maul did take down someone of Kas'im's stature, it's most likely PIS.

Lord Lucien

Originally posted by Shoes
What? You're saying that because there are more books written about Maul, he automatically wins? I may be new to this forum, but this is utter nonsense. It's been explained to you that:I think Kas'im would win, but:

Originally posted by Shoes
-Kas'im > Maul in terms of force power Prove it.

Originally posted by Shoes
-Kas'im > Maul in saber combat Prove it.

Originally posted by Shoes
How can you possibly say that Maul could win? Not logical in the least. If, and this is a pretty big if, Maul did take down someone of Kas'im's stature, it's most likely PIS. How can you possibly say that Kas'im could win? Not logical in the least. If, and this is a pretty big if, Kas'im take down some of Maul's stature, it's most likely PIS.

See? Anyone can do that. I feel Kas'im would win only because I like the idea of the old generation being better. But "deadliest Sith apprentice in history" is a f*cking achievement. Can you kindly assert the validity of your candor?

Shoes

His defending of Bane's TK wave, proves to me that he is capable of producing a shield powerful enough to fend off a force titan's strongest attack. This clearly requires Kas'im to have some force power, and it's a force feat unmatched by any of Maul's.

Then we have his lightsaber mastery, of every form, which he then perfected. Sure, Maul has mastery over Juyo, Niman, and other forms, but certainly not every single one, and not to the degree that Kas'im had attained.

Ms.Marvel

the novel stated that every bone in his body was pulpified by it though, did it not? he "defended" himself from it by not dying, it was the temple collapsing that killed him, but he was clearly utterly defeated by the technique. he couldnt do a single thing to actually negate its affects...

and your second statement is another assertion with substantiation. its circular reasoning as well. "the reason why i think kas'im is a superior duelist is because he mastered his saber forms to a higher degree than maul did". thats circular logic unless you can back up the second half of that statement.

the truth is that theyre both ridicullous featless wonders. mauls saber prowess is a result of some ass kisser's quote quote stating that he is a "master" of juyo, and in order to become even proficient in juyo you have to be a master of multiple high end forms... and then theres kas'im who's saber prowess is a result of some ass kissing quote stating that hes a master of all forms. theyre both the same thing, honestly...

edit- for the record i havent read PoD in liek three years so i could be entirely wrong on that first point.

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yes, they're to be considered. But this was your entire post.

One can infer that you're giving the edge to Maul because he has more known feats to his name than Kas'im. That is what we call feat wars. smile

I never said Maul wins (just to point that out). I said this debate seems to be in Maul's favor so far.

But yes if Kas'im only has one accolade to his name, while Maul has a couple with feats to back it up, then I would say the edge goes to Maul. Wouldn't it kind of Make Kas'im an unknown?

Dr McBeefington

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I never said Maul wins (just to point that out). I said this debate seems to be in Maul's favor so far.

But yes if Kas'im only has one accolade to his name, while Maul has a couple with feats to back it up, then I would say the edge goes to Maul. Wouldn't it kind of Make Kas'im an unknown? You just described feat wars. Kas'im defeated bane. He mastered all seven forms and then honed his skills for decades while Maul was what,25? Kas'im's experience along trumps Maul's.

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You just described feat wars. Kas'im defeated bane. He mastered all seven forms and then honed his skills for decades while Maul was what,25? Kas'im's experience along trumps Maul's. Kas'im was losing to Bane for a good portion of the fight until he switched to a form Bane was unfamiliar with. This is not going to help him much here.

Maybe it's not the number of feats Maul has to his name, but it's the feats themselves which are hard to top. He defeated Qui Gon, who was more experienced. He defeated Anoon, who was more experienced and also who was said to have mastered all seven forms. Sidious trained Maul to be an "unstoppable" weapon, torturing and testing Maul to his very limits.

Shoes

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kas'im was losing to Bane for a good portion of the fight until he switched to a form Bane was unfamiliar with. This is not going to help him much here.

Maybe it's not the number of feats Maul has to his name, but it's the feats themselves which are hard to top. He defeated Qui Gon, who was more experienced. He defeated Anoon, who was more experienced and also who was said to have mastered all seven forms. Sidious trained Maul to be an "unstoppable" weapon, torturing and testing Maul to his very limits.

confused

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by Shoes
confused

Kas'im was losing to Bane because he was stronger in the force, not because his blade work was better. This has been explained to you several times, and each time you neglect to mention it. Force capability directly influences saber combat. And he doesn't the element of surprise in this situation. You can quote all you want, it's not going to change the fact that Maul can't pull a force feat out of his ass, and that his degree of mastery is nowhere near Kas'im's. I really could care less why he was losing to Bane. I am asking for you to prove how Kas'im is superior to Maul. Kas'im has good defenses against TK. Ok that's good, but how is that going to help him if Maul rarely ever uses TK in battle?

Yeah, being able to take a lot and still keep going. He was once starved and exhausted but still kept going, and managed to duel Sidious in a saber duel. Even though he lost, it still says a lot.

Shoes

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I really could care less why he was losing to Bane. I am asking for you to prove how Kas'im is superior to Maul. Kas'im has good defenses against TK. Ok that's good, but how is that going to help him if Maul rarely ever uses TK in battle?

What the hell? You brought it up. Remember this?

You must be kidding me. I was merely responding to your attack on Kas'im's saber talents, which is because force power influences saber combat. Moreover, you've neglected to mention any force feats of Maul's that rival Kas'im's force shield.

Enough with the bold font too. I will make this as simple as possible, because it's obvious you have many a neurological disorder. Blocking this attack is difficult, this is evident as the author described the effects of it, should it come in contact him. If Kas'im was able to conjure a force shield, powerful enough to absorb said blow, it would obviously require a great deal of force power. This has been repeated several times, and will not be again. If you can't understand it after this many times, there is no reason to continue.

Now you're just becoming desperate. How will that help him? Last time I checked, Maul is not immune to physical exertion, only pain. And even so, if a lightsaber does come in contact with him, he will die.

So did Agen Kolar.

Now, it's your turn. I have justified Kas'im's force domination and lightsaber mastery. What have you done? Instead of trying to disprove facts, back up Maul, because it seems to me this debate is in Kas'im's favor.

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by Shoes
What the hell? You brought it up. Remember this?

You must be kidding me. I was merely responding to your attack on Kas'im's saber talents, which is because force power influences saber combat. Moreover, you've neglected to mention any force feats of Maul's that rival Kas'im's force shield.

Enough with the bold font too. I will make this as simple as possible, because it's obvious you have many a neurological disorder. Blocking this attack is difficult, this is evident as the author described the effects of it, should it come in contact him. If Kas'im was able to conjure a force shield, powerful enough to absorb said blow, it would obviously require a great deal of force power. This has been repeated several times, and will not be again. If you can't understand it after this many times, there is no reason to continue.

Now you're just becoming desperate. How will that help him? Last time I checked, Maul is not immune to physical exertion, only pain. And even so, if a lightsaber does come in contact with him, he will die.

So did Agen Kolar.

Now, it's your turn. I have justified Kas'im's force domination and lightsaber mastery. What have you done? Instead of trying to disprove facts, back up Maul, because it seems to me this debate is in Kas'im's favor. Are you kidding me? You have not proved how Kas'im is superior in sabers. I am asking you to prove it. You keep saying "Oh, well he mastered all 7 forms." Ok, so did Anoon, but where did it get him? Bane lost the saber duel because of a style he was unfamiliar with. Maul knows this style, so it is an advantage he has that Bane does not. That is why I brought that up.

Are you telling me that because he blocked Bane's wave, that he is going to clobber Maul with the force?

Maul was starved and exhausted while fighting Sidious, Kolar was not. Try again. If someone is able to perform well while in great pain or exhaustion, what does that tell you?

Shoes

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Are you kidding me? You have not proved how Kas'im is superior in sabers. I am asking you to prove it. You keep saying "Oh, well he mastered all 7 forms." Ok, so did Anoon, but where did it get him? Bane lost the saber duel because of a style he was unfamiliar with. Maul knows this style, so it is an advantage he has that Bane does not. That is why I brought that up.

The degree that Kas'im mastered all forms is far beyond Maul. Far beyond Anoon. This is your dying hope. Because all I've seen is you trying to ABC with Anoon. Will you please get it through your head that Anoon =/= Kas'im. Anoon =/= Bane. Not in terms of force power, not in terms of saber proficiency. What's interesting to me is, here you are, again, trying to disprove canon, instead of looking for sources to support your ludicrous Maul > Kas'im in saber combat.

Your second point barely makes sense. I assume you're implying that Maul is a force and saber beast, who not only mastered, but perfected all forms. This is the issue I'm trying to press, but you won't listen. There are different degrees of mastery, and in different forms. At last you grasp the concept of Kas'im's force superiority, bringing back to this: force power influences saber combat. which was the whole reason Bane stood a chance against Kas'im in the first place. This is why Bane, who lacked the years and years of lightsaber instruction that Kas'im had, was able to overcome him until he switched forms.

No, but he will be able to use his superior command of the force to slice him up.

Irrelevant. Prove to me that Maul will even survive to the point of being exhausted.

Red Nemesis

In the interest of preventing more head-to-wall contacttime spent talking to S66, would you elaborate on this?

By asking this I prevent him from feeling the need to mash the keyboard in a (vain) attempt to produce an argument more frequently than he does now.

Shoes

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
In the interest of preventing more head-to-wall contacttime spent talking to S66, would you elaborate on this?

By asking this I prevent him from feeling the need to mash the keyboard in a (vain) attempt to produce an argument more frequently than he does now.

Well, I am basing this on the following statement:

Each time he tried to change tactics or switch forms, Bane anticipated, reacted, and seized the advantage. The outcome was inevitable. Bane was simply too strong in the Force.

Now, how can Kas'im be losing, after mastering and perfecting every form? Thus, force affinity has a direct influence over lightsaber combat, giving Bane the edge. This is why he was winning. This is why Kas'im, in combination with his technical skill, will disassemble Maul.

Red Nemesis

There. Loophole closed without adding another painful "paragraph."

truejedi

not quite. Prove Kas'sim was stronger than maul in the force, then the loophole is closed.

Red Nemesis

To my knowledge the best we've been given for Maul is indirect narration indicating that his "Deadliest Sith apprentice in history" is not limited to power with the blade.

We've also seen him tank some Force lightning from a Nightsister (Dathomir). The Wookiee (incorrectly) attributes Force Lightning to him (which is non-canon taken from the Ep.I video game) but otherwise calls his skills "modest" and fails to provide any evidence at all that he has noteworthy talent in any aspect of using the Force in combat.

What do we know about Kas'im?

We know that he tanked (successfully shielding himself from) one of the most destructive outbursts of offensive telekinesis in the mythos. (The quote has been generously provided by our new friend Shoes.)

The capacity to protect himself from such an attack is far beyond anything Maul has shown; it is emblematic of the distinction between the two. While Kas'im does not have the variety of accolades that Maul does (probably because he's found in a much smaller number of sources) his showings are unquestionably superior. Neither Maul's manipulation of rubble (debris?) during his fight in Ep. I nor his ability to withstand the Nightsister's lightning indicate a level of mastery equal to Kas'im's.

The question of 'achieved' potential, then, is settled. Kas'im's mastery of the Force, as indicated by the (favorable for him) comparison between the characters' demonstrated abilities removes from Maul's case the final hope for victory. There will be no upset of skill and technique by the Force, because both skill and the Force are on Kas'im's side.

truejedi

shoes is ivalice, red. So we might as well call him that.

I have problem with saying that Kas'sim is proven powerful because of a single attack that he protected himself from. In that same book, it says the lowest sith apprentices are taught to protect themselves from force attacks (bubble of protection) from the beginning of their training. The fact that Bane was able to choke one of the students despite that bubble was considered very unusual.

Kas'sim, who we assume would have had much more force mastery than a random apprentice, should be able to block an attack. Being able to protect yourself from an attack, in and of itself can't prove force mastery.

I do not disagree that Maul is comparatively weak in the force, but considering the only thing we know about Kas'sim was that he was able to block a single force attack from Bane, I would almost have to put him as an almost force unknown as well.

This of course, doesn't give anyone any reason to believe Maul would win, i just don't think there is a decisive amount of evidence.

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by truejedi
shoes is ivalice, red. So we might as well call him that.

If everyone is ivalice, then nobody is. I'll keep my ignorance, thank you very much. (This guy is more articulate and less angry than Ivalice ever was anyway. laughing out loud

)

Ivalice/Big S, please don't kill me with ur mad musculatures.

Do you know why it was unusual? It is unusual in the way that you do not expect a whitebelt to accomplish a death-poke. It is unusual in the way that you do not expect a seventeenth degree blackbelt to KO another seventeenth degree blackbelt in a single strike. It was noteworthy because Bane was at such a low level of training and because he broke the best student at the school.

This only holds if you take "mounting a defense immediately translates to a successful defense" as an axiom. There is nothing to suggest that a "random apprentice" would be able to block a powerful attack from, say, Palpatine. or Bane

What I'm getting at is that blocking Bane's attack is noteworthy because it is Bane. This attack was fueled by a particularly powerful individual who was given breathing room to store and unleash his prodigious arsenal of Force power. Blocking Bane is a big deal.

Here's the thing. I asked for substantiation on the idea that Kas'im "...will be able to use his superior command of the force to slice up." This concept relies on the idea that Kas'im is superior or roughly equal to Maul in Force mastery. The reason that this is important is that it removes from Maul's list of possible arguments the idea that superior Force power can compensate for lack of Saber skill. The only requirement for this is that Kas'im be proven to be on par, not necessarily superior to, Darth Maul. (The phrasing of Shoes's post is a little audacious, but is not technically wrong. A pedant may take issue with it, but S.66 isn't clever enough to spot the loophole without my help, and I've since closed it. Hence the talk about alleviating his compulsion to post here.)

Oh but there is. Kas'im is dramatically superior in both functional combat experience and technical skill. The two have (at worst) roughly equal Force capacities (which is much less likely than the alternative, which is that Kas'im is more adept in this category, too). These facts (which really can't be argued with) suggest that Kas'im will be the victor in a confrontation.

Gideon

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Oh but there is. Kas'im is dramatically superior in both functional combat experience and technical skill.

With a lightsaber? Someone either prove that or, if it's already been done, refer me to the post in question.

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by Shoes
The degree that Kas'im mastered all forms is far beyond Maul. Far beyond Anoon. This is your dying hope. Because all I've seen is you trying to ABC with Anoon. Will you please get it through your head that Anoon =/= Kas'im. Anoon =/= Bane. Not in terms of force power, not in terms of saber proficiency. What's interesting to me is, here you are, again, trying to disprove canon, instead of looking for sources to support your ludicrous Maul > Kas'im in saber combat.

Your second point barely makes sense. I assume you're implying that Maul is a force and saber beast, who not only mastered, but perfected all forms. This is the issue I'm trying to press, but you won't listen. There are different degrees of mastery, and in different forms. At last you grasp the concept of Kas'im's force superiority, bringing back to this: force power influences saber combat. which was the whole reason Bane stood a chance against Kas'im in the first place. This is why Bane, who lacked the years and years of lightsaber instruction that Kas'im had, was able to overcome him until he switched forms.

No, but he will be able to use his superior command of the force to slice him up.

Irrelevant. Prove to me that Maul will even survive to the point of being exhausted. You win the arguement. Kas'im wins the fight because he mastered all seven forms, and because you say so. He is superior to Anoon because you say so.

iamkadesh

Shoes is not Ivalice TJ (that would be me).

iamkadesh

BTW Anoon was never stated to have mastered all seven forms. He was stated to be the most technically skilled Jedi alive but that's pretty much it as far as his technical ability with a lightsaber goes.

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by Gideon
With a lightsaber? Someone either prove that or, if it's already been done, refer me to the post in question.

woahpoasts

This is self-evident. There is literally no doubt in my mind that this is the case, and after I have told you the reasons why this is so I suspect that you will agree with me, even if you never achieve the crazily biased outlook I possess.

The level of talent that Kas'im brings in to any competition is prodigious. From his personal history to the narration of Path of Darkness (PoD), everything he is can be distilled into one word: skill.

In PoD Kas'im is tasked with the job of training the Brotherhood of Darkness's most promising students in personal combat. In this job he must have a working knowledge of every form, at a level high enough to train the future leaders and kingpins of the movement. This indicates that he knows all the forms of this era. Darth Maul comes out the lesser in any comparison of general knowledge of saber combat; the most we can say about Maul is that he is a high-level master of multiple forms--not all.

How do we know that Kas'im's knowledge of the various forms equals Maul's knowledge of the subset that he does know? This too is solved with a simple recollection of the plotline of PoD. The method that Kas'im uses to teach his students is one focusing heavily on rote memorization. A new student is given a sequence of moves to learn, gradually weaving these "combinations" into a coherent fighting form. Kas'im knows all of these. In fact, he knows every combination for every form with any mainstream variation of the lightsaber (double blade or single, dual wield or otherwise) and some more obscure variants (like the lightwhip). Even if Darth Maul does not use these exact combinations, the degree of familiarity that Kas'im has with any fighting style thrown at him (with the possible exception of Vapaad is aware of]) puts him at a considerable advantage.

Rote memorization is not Kas'im's only tool, however. His functional skill can be seen in his duel with Darth Bane. When using his weapon of choice--dual wielding sabers--his speed and skill overwhelms both Bane's skills (which at this point were considerable, rivaling Kas'im's familiarity with the various forms of combat) and his Force precognition, which was powerful enough even in an untrained state to protect him on the front lines of the War against the Republic. This indicates that mere "technical mastery" is not the only thing Kas'im brings to a fight; he also has an excellent grasp of in-combat applications.

Kas'im has a greater degree of technical skill and combat experience than does Maul, making him the victor in any clash of blades between the two.

Gideon

Before I respond, I have but one question: did Bane master a single form of lightsaber combat?

Red Nemesis

It seems like it was Djem So, because he is so strong? I don't have the link to the Russian site anymore so I can't help you. Actually, could somebody post that please?

But my guess is that he spec'd Djem So, with an added emphasis on everything else. (He memorized everything i think, as can be seen by him teaching Zannah.)

mattatom

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
It seems like it was Djem So, because he is so strong? I don't have the link to the Russian site anymore so I can't help you. Actually, could somebody post that please?

But my guess is that he spec'd Djem So, with an added emphasis on everything else. (He memorized everything i think, as can be seen by him teaching Zannah.) All the students were taught everything but due to Bane's "2 meters even" muscular bulk he used Djem So the most and with his curved hilt sabed he could put more force on the blows. Can't find my copy of PoD at mo. Simply, you're right Red.

Nephthys

How would you know that? That was before you signed up. sneaky2

mattatom

Originally posted by Nephthys
How would you know that? That was before you signed up. sneaky2 Maybe he's not a new user? wink

Shoes

Originally posted by Nephthys
How would you know that? That was before you signed up. sneaky2

I got interested in Star Wars about 2 1/2 years ago, the first time I played KoTOR. I found this forum only 6 months ago. I just looked around, and saw how you treated people without EU knowledge. So, I went here, and learned. Then, I signed up, with a decent knowledge of the sith era, ROTS, LOTF, and DE. I saw you guys complaining about him before, plus threads don't have to be hot to read them.

Red Nemesis

It isn't that we enjoy being jerks, it is just that the only enjoyable usage of KMC after the fifth time explaining something like the metaphysics of Mace in combat is ridiculing people who say dumb things. That there is a correlation between not knowing what you are talking about (in any subject) and saying dumb things is only incidental.

Ms.Marvel

what is that in response to?

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
what is that in response to?
This.

He could also be SorgoGenesis, in contribution mode.

Red Nemesis

Yes that. The idea that we treat newcomers and people that want to learn poorly.

iamkadesh

Shoes are to socks, as what are to sock accounts, is the question.

iamkadesh

Am I on the right track Shoes?

iamkadesh

Red I need you to come up with a metaphor involving shoes, socks, and people having their accounts restricted from message boards and then going on to make other accounts.

Shoes

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
It isn't that we enjoy being jerks, it is just that the only enjoyable usage of KMC after the fifth time explaining something like the metaphysics of Mace in combat is ridiculing people who say dumb things. That there is a correlation between not knowing what you are talking about (in any subject) and saying dumb things is only incidental.

Your reaction is justified. I simply try to avoid being on the receiving end of it.

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by iamkadesh
Red I need you to come up with a metaphor involving shoes, socks, and people having their accounts restricted from message boards and then going on to make other accounts.

It seems like you'd be the one to ask about socks, Neb.

Eminence

Reported.

You know why.

Red Nemesis

Do I?

Gideon

Red Nemesis
It seems like it was Djem So, because he is so strong? I don't have the link to the Russian site anymore so I can't help you. Actually, could somebody post that please?

But my guess is that he spec'd Djem So, with an added emphasis on everything else. (He memorized everything i think, as can be seen by him teaching Zannah.)

You misunderstand me: it is my understanding that Bane had not mastered any particular form. He is a Djem So practitioner, but I believe it was previously established that he had not mastered it. I was checking for clarification before I proceeded.

Shoes

I can't find the exact quote, but Wookiepedia says the following:

"A master practitioner of Djem So, Darth Bane was a deadly lightsaber duelist."

The source in question was Rule of Two.

truejedi

wiki doesn't count without a page number though.

Gideon

truejedi
wiki doesn't count without a page number though.

Bingo.

And I can't very well proceed until I know. For some reason, I'm thinking Exodus may have dropped that bombshell.

truejedi

Is Bane's level of proficiency in ROT have anything to do with the skill level of Kas'sim in POD? I think not. Even if he was the master of seven form in ROT, it could be argued he learned some from Holocrons, and not from Kas'sim.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Gideon
Bingo.

And I can't very well proceed until I know. For some reason, I'm thinking Exodus may have dropped that bombshell.

Hey!

truejedi

So basially, Kas'sim knew all 7 styles well enough to teach them. (which is the highest knowledge someone can have of something physical like that.)

Gideon

truejedi
So basially, Kas'sim knew all 7 styles well enough to teach them. (which is the highest knowledge someone can have of something physical like that.)

Count Dooku was one of the Jedi Temple's lightsaber instructors and claimed to be able to "demonstrate responses" from each and every member of the High Council during the Clone Wars.

Vader's style, four weeks after Revenge of the Sith, borrowed from all lightsaber styles -- even the highest levels.

Yet neither of them were said to be absolute masters of all seven forms. The second I can get a definite answer on Bane's own level of knowledge, we'll proceed.

Red Nemesis

You'll have to look at his books yourself. As noted, I have lost the Russian link.

Eminence

sweu.ru seems at first glance to have been rendered inaccessible. If anyone cares to try and register, have fun.

ares834

What's up with the password?

Red Nemesis

Translated, the thingamajig reads

DrunknClockwork

Very soon, this place will be completely new, cool and regularly updated SWEU. Hold out some three weeks
smile

Shoes

Originally posted by Gideon

Yet neither of them were said to be absolute masters of all seven forms. The second I can get a definite answer on Bane's own level of knowledge, we'll proceed.

I doubt an answer exists. The advantage of having PoD and RoT as pdf documents, is I can search for key words. Djem So, Form V, and master, all yielded no results. All we can deduce is that Bane was a notable practitioner, with extensive training from Kas'im.

Red Nemesis

Gideon you might have to establish it yourself. (This has the added benefit of the level being whatever is most beneficial to your argument.)

And the hidden benefit of giving me another platform to undermine.

DrunknClockwork

Btw: You can get PoD here:
w w w .hungry-ewok.ru/sw/eng/db_1_pod.zip

smile

SIDIOUS 66

You have yet to prove this. Technical skill and experience does not equal a victory. If that were the case then Anoon would have defeated Maul.

truejedi

What is the perceived link between this fight and the number of forms mastered by Bane? That is a bit of an aside.

Red Nemesis

Bane is the only metric we have to judge Kas'im. It is perfectly reasonable to look for a way to quantify that.

Jinsoku Takai

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Bane is the only metric we have to judge Kas'im. It is perfectly reasonable to look for a way to quantify that.

Agreed.

truejedi

knowing how many forms he knew teaches us NOTHING about him as a combatant though. The only thing that matters is how good he was at the single form he uses in his fight with kas'sim.

Jinsoku Takai

Originally posted by truejedi
knowing how many forms he knew teaches us NOTHING about him as a combatant though. The only thing that matters is how good he was at the single form he uses in his fight with kas'sim.

Yeah man... that's what I said. confused

Red Nemesis

JT, just about everything you've just said is a non sequitur. (Except for where you agree with me, seemingly in contradiction to the rest of your tirade.)

Go back and look for where anyone wanted to ABC Kasim and Maul by way of Bane and tell me, because then we can give you the meds for people who imagine stuff.

Originally posted by truejedi
knowing how many forms he knew teaches us NOTHING about him as a combatant though. The only thing that matters is how good he was at the single form he uses in his fight with kas'sim.
Look at what I wrote to JT. Then apply it to yourself, only remove the props for agreeing with me.

And then multiply your fail by two because Gideon wasn't looking for the number of forms Bane knew but the quality of one of them. So the reason for the discussion is what you are telling us to talk about. If the best you can do is tell us we're off topic then maybe you could take the five minutes to look in your own sources and find the answer.

truejedi

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
JT, just about everything you've just said is a non sequitur. (Except for where you agree with me, seemingly in contradiction to the rest of your tirade.)

Go back and look for where anyone wanted to ABC Kasim and Maul by way of Bane and tell me, because then we can give you the meds for people who imagine stuff.

Look at what I wrote to JT. Then apply it to yourself, only remove the props for agreeing with me.

And then multiply your fail by two because Gideon wasn't looking for the number of forms Bane knew but the quality of one of them.

no u.

I'm asking the simple question of what does Bane's number of forms have to do with anything? Since you bothered to ANSWER my last comment by basically saying "YES THEY R 2 PERTINENT", your tactic here of saying you are agreeing with me doesn't work. Why bother to argue with your last comment that they do matter, if here you are going to claim they don't?

Confusing to me. So stop it. I don't sleep anymore, and i am too easily confused these days.

Dr McBeefington

TJ in case you haven't noticed, you're not JT.

truejedi

he did try to apply it to me directly after that though with:

Jinsoku Takai

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
JT, just about everything you've just said is a non sequitur. (Except for where you agree with me, seemingly in contradiction to the rest of your tirade.)

Go back and look for where anyone wanted to ABC Kasim and Maul by way of Bane and tell me, because then we can give you the meds for people who imagine stuff.

Look at what I wrote to JT. Then apply it to yourself, only remove the props for agreeing with me.

And then multiply your fail by two because Gideon wasn't looking for the number of forms Bane knew but the quality of one of them. So the reason for the discussion is what you are telling us to talk about. If the best you can do is tell us we're off topic then maybe you could take the five minutes to look in your own sources and find the answer.

Ok... tell me now... where did I refer to an ABC argument? Happy Easter!

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Ok... tell me now... where did I refer to an ABC argument? Happy Easter!
I took to mean that using Bane to compare Kas'im wouldn't work because it was an ABC. It looks a lot like my boilerplate response to such an attempt.

But whatever. You weren't actually being stupid and my post is pretty much out of line. Sorry.

TJ, you on the other hand...

need to sleep less, so that my rambling attempts at being good at stuff will make more sense, rather than less.

Gideon

Nicely done.

Bane's own level of proficiency is, perhaps, key to this entire argument. He clearly holds Kas'im in high regard, like Darsha Assant held Anoon Bondara. From her perspective (the narration of Shadow Hunter), he was the most skilled duelist in the Order. Subsequent references in other sources confirm that Bondara was only one of the most skilled duelists of the era.

If Bane is not a master of multiple forms, or any form, he's not in a position to realistically dictate how skilled Kas'im is. Contrast this with the sources on Darth Maul, which are objective and without bias (the Complete Visual Dictionary, the Ultimate Visual Guide, et al.)

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by Gideon
Nicely done.
wut?

As I remember, Bane memorized the forms well enough to match Kas'im when the later was using a weapon he was familiar with. Bane was winning the first half of the fight largely because he knew everything Kas'im could do with a saber. This came from hours upon hours of time spent dueling, but also hours spent memorizing specific forms and the "combinations" of those forms.

Add to that his ability to teach Zannah whatever form would be most effective (implying that he could also have taught her Makashi, for example) it certainly seems as though Bane is competent to judge Kas'im. I will defer to someone with sources, however, if there is something I've overlooked.

Ms.Marvel

i dont agree agree with that. you can memorize something to the point where it becomes mechanical, without necessarily understanding it. truly, the reason why bane was winning at all was due to the fact that he memorized every combination kas'im made, as well as the counters to those combinations, which is why he began to lose when kas'im switched to an unrecognizable form. that in itself leads me to believe then that bane's understanding of kas'im's teachings and abilities were purely mechanical and automatic (though frankly thats not his fault. katas are not a very efficent way of teaching people to fight)...

aside from that, bane hardly had a wide variety of teachers. it should go without saying that any opinion he has of kas'im would be heavily biased...

Shoes

Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all.

This is a very interesting point.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
And then multiply your fail by two because Gideon wasn't looking for the number of forms Bane knew but the quality of one of them.

Actually, the "fail" is with Gideon here, provided that this question doesn't make any sense, given the rules set for lightsaber engagements in the SWU. Who cares about the "quality" of a formal weapon training when people like Nomi Sunrider can pick up a lightsaber and handle the weapon "like a master" without one minute of actual instruction? Likewise Kas'im told Bane that the latter has "moved beyond forms" due to his strong connection to the force. The same can be said about Anakin's duels with the likes of Cin Drallig or Dooku. Those were two individuals who dedicated their lives to learning and understanding the art of lightsaber combat, which didn't help them to defeat the Chosen One. Do you really think this can be attributed to Anakin's "higher quality" of a certain lightsaber form (e.g. Djem So) - or is that rather a result of Anakin's strong connection to the force (which the RotS novel heavily implies)?

I also don't understand why it's necessary to use Bane here in order to compare Maul and Kas'im. Bane is most likely more powerful in the force than both individuals, while he has most likely gone through less training in Martial Arts / lightsaber forms than both Maul and Kas'im.

Using what we know about the two opponents here, I'd say that Kas'im maybe has the edge on Maul when it comes to natural force connection (shielding himself from Bane's final force attack that collapsed the Rakatan temple was impressive). Maul's martial art skill might give him an advantage in close quarter combat (see his duel with Qui-Gon). Yet when thinking about sheer lightsaber ability, one has to take into consideration that Maul kept a rigorous training regime but was, according to Dooku, a little bit unrefined ("skilled animal" wink

. Kas'im, on the contrary, also studied and taught lightsaber skills on a daily basis. A dedication that has led to supposed mastery of all forms to a level of nigh perfection with the ability to switch form and weapons (dual-blade, two-blades) while in combat.

Based on that observations, one might conclude that the two opponents are equipped with very similar skills, with a possible edge for Kas'im because of (possible) greater force mastery and the fact that he would know Maul's lightsaber style inside-out (including the limitations the double-blade causes), while he might have some tricks up his sleeve that Maul doesn't know (and won't survive).

Ms.Marvel

thats a very logically dawn conclusion thumb up

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
i dont agree agree with that. you can memorize something to the point where it becomes mechanical, without necessarily understanding it. truly, the reason why bane was winning at all was due to the fact that he memorized every combination kas'im made, as well as the counters to those combinations, which is why he began to lose when kas'im switched to an unrecognizable form. that in itself leads me to believe then that bane's understanding of kas'im's teachings and abilities were purely mechanical and automatic (though frankly thats not his fault. katas are not a very efficent way of teaching people to fight)...

aside from that, bane hardly had a wide variety of teachers. it should go without saying that any opinion he has of kas'im would be heavily biased...

Could you please explain the difference between "knowing every possible sequence in any of the forms" and "understanding" the forms?

Edit:
I never dislike the things Nai writes.

Gideon

Red Nemesis
wut?

You pointed out the exact reason why I wanted to know Bane's relative skill.

As I mentioned earlier, Count Dooku claimed in Labyrinth of Evil to General Grievous that he could demonstrate maneuvers and techniques from all of the standing members of the Jedi High Council and inflict them in assaults against the general.

Despite this, and the fact that Dooku was once one of the Temple's foremost combat instructors, no source states that Count Dooku is anything other than a master of Makashi, nor do we assume as much.

Darth Vader, in the Rise of Darth Vader, demonstrated a form unique and unprecedented to his enemies, borrowing techniques from all lightsaber forms.

Despite this, no source states that Vader is a master of anything other than Djem So.

The fact that he was able to competently stand against Kas'im does not mean that he is a Master of any specific form. As the narration concluded, Bane was winning solely because he was the more powerful Force user.

There's no doubt that Bane was proficient in lightsaber combat, perhaps in all forms. But I asked you if he was a Master of any. It's rather like Assant's ignorant perception of Anoon Bondara. She is a trained Jedi Knight, she has presumably witnessed other duelists and instructors in action, yet concludes Bondara is the greatest duelist alive.

Other sources disprove this. Why is Bane's perception much more acute Bane'sKAS'IM's skills]?

Ms.Marvel

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Could you please explain the difference between "knowing every possible sequence in any of the forms" and "understanding" the forms?

Edit:
I never dislike the things Nai writes.

there is a difference between memorization, and understanding.

blaxican is very proficent in computers, i am not. recently i was having problems getting a game i bought to install on my computer and when i asked him what to do he told me to go to the website for the video card i own and download the latest drivers, which i did, and now the game runs.

i have no idea what a driver is, nor what it does, or why, but i remember what to do if the same problem arises so ill do what he told me to do. thats the difference between a memorization and understanding.

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by Gideon

There's no doubt that Bane was proficient in lightsaber combat, perhaps in all forms. But I asked you if he was a Master of any. It's rather like Assant's ignorant perception of Anoon Bondara. She is a trained Jedi Knight, she has presumably witnessed other duelists and instructors in action, yet concludes Bondara is the greatest duelist alive.

Other sources disprove this. Why is Bane's perception much more acute?

I would say that the various accolades Kas'im receives from people that are not Bane (especially from the leaders of the Brotherhood, whose names I cannot remember) suggest that Bane's estimation of Kas'im is not inaccurate.

I am not particularly concerned with Bane at this point. If you think that a given level of power is conducive to your argument then take it as given and make your case. The conclusion you reach will be the optimal case. Then, in the interest of a full examination, take the opposite as a given. This will be suboptimal. This way we can move on and you get to stack contingencies behind your argument. You can cover your ass and avoid any chance that preformed opinions will be the flaw in your argument.

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
there is a difference between memorization, and understanding.

And could you please tell us what that is?

Ms.Marvel

edited

Gideon

Red Nemesis
I would say that the various accolades Kas'im receives from people that are not Bane (especially from the leaders of the Brotherhood, whose names I cannot remember) suggest that Bane's estimation of Kas'im is not inaccurate.

?
Bondara's skills were also heralded by Qui-Gon Jinn, someone else who was not Darsha Assant. But that did not lend credence to her assessment of Bondara's skills.

The point I'm trying to make here is that Bondara and Kas'im are both heralded and felated by their peers and students for their awe-inspiring skills with the lightsaber.

The point of this remains untouched: Kas'im and Bondara were both highly skilled duelists, but not necessarily to the extent that those students believed.

Or are there other statements from the Brotherhood corroborating Bane's exact assessment of Kas'im's ability?

You should be. A huge percentage of your pro-Kas'im argument comes from Bane's assessments.

Shoes

Originally posted by Gideon
The fact that he was able to competently stand against Kas'im does not mean that he is a Master of any specific form. As the narration concluded, Bane was winning solely because he was the more powerful Force user.

Not exactly, his experience and overall knowledge played a large part.

Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all.

Thus, Bane was aware of every technique a Master can use. And if that's not Mastery, I would have you define it.

Gideon

Shoes
Not exactly, his experience and overall knowledge played a large part.

Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all.

Thus, Bane was aware of every technique a Master can use. And if that's not Mastery, I would have you define it.

With a double-bladed lightsaber? Which would be, what? Jar'Kai?

Ms.Marvel

Originally posted by Shoes

Thus, Bane was aware of every technique a Master can use. And if that's not Mastery, I would have you define it.

there is a difference between memorization and understanding. laughing out loud

Shoes

Originally posted by Gideon
With a double-bladed lightsaber? Which would be, what? Jar'Kai?

So? From what I understand, there is no difference if you achieve Mastery over a form with a single-hilted lightsaber, or one of the double-bladed variety. Feel free to correct me.

Gideon

Shoes
So? From what I understand, there is no difference if you achieve Mastery over a form with a single-hilted lightsaber, or one of the double-bladed variety. Feel free to correct me.

This is an area I have trouble with as well. As I understand it, Jar'Kai is but one form.

Ms.Marvel

it doesnt take some mentally impaired eu author or george lucas to tell you that that is incorrect shoes, unless im misunderstanding what youre saying in which case i apologize.

any time you are using a duel sided weapon instead of a single sided weapon, every aspect of the fighting style becomes vastly different, even if it still falls under the same form...

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
there is a difference between memorization and understanding. laughing out loud

What is that difference, exactly?

I was under the impression that Kas'im was teaching Bane the forms with all of the various weapon variants. For instance, Bane knows how to teach Zannah how to use a double blade, even though he himself uses only a single hilt. He is also provided experience fighting against non-conventional weapons like the lightwhip.

So a specific form name might be irrelevant here.

I see now where this is going. It took me a while, but now it has clicked. You want to dispute the various accolades because they come from Bane. I suppose that this will be fairly difficult for you if you haven't got a book, because I was under the impression that these statements were coming from the narrator.

This may be very important.

The one I'm thinking of specifically is the one where Kas'im is sent off to fight Bane by the leader of the Brotherhood. At that point I thought there were mad props offered to him.

Shoes

Okay, then let me ask you this. If Kas'im disconnected his lightsabers and engaged Bane using only Djem So, would it have made any difference? In short, is it the weapon, the form, or both that make a difference?

Ms.Marvel

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
What is that difference, exactly?

i already answered this. confused

Ms.Marvel

Originally posted by Shoes
Okay, then let me ask you this. If Kas'im disconnected his lightsabers and engaged Bane using only Djem So, would it have made any difference? In short, is it the weapon, the form, or both that make a difference?

both

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
i already answered this. confused

Then you wont have any trouble quickquoting it, will you?

god damn ninjas!

ninja

Edit two:
SO then could you explain how it is that Bane memorized these forms and has been told that he is "beyond sequences" now?

Ms.Marvel

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
there is a difference between memorization, and understanding.

blaxican is very proficent in computers, i am not. recently i was having problems getting a game i bought to install on my computer and when i asked him what to do he told me to go to the website for the video card i own and download the latest drivers, which i did, and now the game runs.

i have no idea what a driver is, nor what it does, or why, but i remember what to do if the same problem arises so ill do what he told me to do. thats the difference between a memorization and understanding.

Gideon

RN
I see now where this is going. It took me a while, but now it has clicked. You want to dispute the various accolades because they come from Bane. I suppose that this will be fairly difficult for you if you haven't got a book, because I was under the impression that these statements were coming from the narrator.

This may be very important.

Bingo.

But you need to understand, right off the bat, that most of the Star Wars novels, PoD included, run through the perspective of a character.

It is not a completely omniscient narrator, otherwise the narrator would have said quite conclusively as to whether or not Kas'im was the greatest duelist in history, rather than a "perhaps."

It all comes from Bane's perspective. That doesn't necessarily make it wrong, but it's not absolute.

EID

RH is correct on the matter. It's the omniscient narrator that attributes Kas'im with mastery of all seven forms, not Bane. Likewise with Anoon, it's the omniscient narrator that attributes him to being the most skilled lightsaber practitioner in the order at the time.

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by Gideon
Bingo.

But you need to understand, right off the bat, that most of the Star Wars novels, PoD included, run through the perspective of a character.

It is not a completely omniscient narrator, otherwise the narrator would have said quite conclusively as to whether or not Kas'im was the greatest duelist in history, rather than a "perhaps."

It all comes from Bane's perspective. That doesn't necessarily make it wrong, but it's not absolute.

In this case it will actually be worthwhile to check out the phrasing in RoT, as well. There we get to see a more experienced Bane reminiscing (in combat) about Kas'im. That might be the best idea we've got.

Overall, however, I think you're fighting an uphill battle to toss out Bane's thoughts on Kas'im as too biased to be of use. You'd have to show that Bane is either incompetent (unlikely, based on his showings) or too awed by his mentor to be objective (also unlikely, mostly because of his own musings during their battle).

Gideon

A truly omniscient narrator wouldn't deal in possibilities, probabilities, or the like, since he'd know the answer.

The line regarding Kas'im being "perhaps the greatest swordsmen ever" or something to that effect is clearly not omniscient; the book is written from various perspectives and Bane's is one of them.

The line regarding Bondara's level of skill is also from a character's perspective since subsequent material has retconned Bondara from being the greatest to one of the greatest.

Shoes

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
In this case it will actually be worthwhile to check out the phrasing in RoT, as well. There we get to see a more experienced Bane reminiscing (in combat) about Kas'im.

Where is this?

Gideon

RN
Overall, however, I think you're fighting an uphill battle to toss out Bane's thoughts on Kas'im as too biased to be of use. You'd have to show that Bane is either incompetent (unlikely, based on his showings) or too awed by his mentor to be objective (also unlikely, mostly because of his own musings during their battle).

Bane is fallible, and clearly does not possess the extent of Kas'im's mastery. The point of his musings regarding Kas'im's ability remains untouched: he was clearly an extraordinarily gifted duelist. But how is Bane to know the extent?

We have precedent of characters' assuming facts that are not necessarily true: Darth Vader's musings regarding his relative skill with Palpatine in the Rise of Darth Vader and Death Star; Assant's perception of Bondara's ability.

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by Shoes
Where is this?

When he fights Raskta doesn't he compare her to Kas'im?

EID

PoD, that segment specifically, was not coming from Bane's perspective, as it clearly details information Bane was not in a position to know (that he had been winning the duel all the way until Kas'im switched to Jar'Kai, as well as the fact that the descriptions of Kas'im's mastery of the lightsaber were being used as the reason for Bane being unable to defeat him would indicate that the descriptions took into account Kas'im's mastery of Jar'Kai, a form Bane didn't even know that Kas'im was even a practitioner of until moments ago, affirming the idea that he clearly would not have been in a position to recall the extents of Kas'im's mastery in such detail).

Ms.Marvel

Originally posted by EID
PoD, that segment specifically, was not coming from Bane's perspective, as it clearly details information Bane was not in a position to know (that he had been winning the duel all the way until Kas'im switched to Jar'Kai, as well as the fact that the descriptions of Kas'im's mastery of the lightsaber were being used as the reason for Bane being unable to defeat him would indicate that the descriptions took into account Kas'im's mastery of Jar'Kai, a form Bane didn't even know that Kas'im was even a practitioner of until moments ago, affirming the idea that he clearly would not have been in a position to recall the extents of Kas'im's mastery in such detail).

knowing why youre losing as youre losing does not require omniscience.

EID

Originally posted by Gideon
It is not a completely omniscient narrator, otherwise the narrator would have said quite conclusively as to whether or not Kas'im was the greatest duelist in history, rather than a "perhaps."

An omniscient narrator in fiction isn't necessarily supposed to emulate an all knowing being down to the very phrasing and mannerisms and to the most emotive and psychological extents however, but to simply detail the story in a manner that the audience can trust that it's actually what has factually taken place (within the context of the story).