Cloud Vs. Zidane

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GrieverSquall

NemeBro
Zidane wins for being ****ing awesome and not emosteak like Cloud is.

TacDavey
I'm going to have to go with Zidane. He was made to destroy a world, after all.

wakkawakkawakka
Damn! There hasn't been a swarm of Cloud fanboys here yet. I know Zidane would probably win but it kind of weird to not see anyone supporting Cloud.

NemeBro
On a serious note Cloud has much better feats than Zidane.

no expression

TheAuraAngel
Depends. What materia is Cloud receiving for this fight? And what abilities does Zidane get?

Nephthys
If Zidane can Trance he probably wins with his harcoar explosion attacks and shit. But yeah, th only time he shows himself near Clouds level physically is at the end when he saves Kuja.

Youtube edit: Yeah, he's pretty impressive, but more Tifa level than Cloud. A suped up Prince of Persia kind of.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Depends. What materia is Cloud receiving for this fight? And what abilities does Zidane get?

Well... I haven't specified that. I suppose any Materia... The problem is that we don't know which Materia Cloud uses in the story-line.
Zidane can use all of his abilities, this is a free fight. But I think that stealing from Cloud wouldn't help much, lol.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Well... I haven't specified that. I suppose any Materia... The problem is that we don't know which Materia Cloud uses in the story-line.
Zidane can use all of his abilities, this is a free fight. But I think that stealing from Cloud wouldn't help much, lol.

Any materia means Cloud could summon, which makes it a bit unfair. But materia like Toad for example, wouldn't work on Zidane who'd likely have an ability that protects against it. Cloud is only forced to have materia equipped in the very beginning. Thunder and Blizzard. So he is pretty magically challenged here. lol

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Any materia means Cloud could summon, which makes it a bit unfair. But materia like Toad for example, wouldn't work on Zidane who'd likely have an ability that protects against it. Cloud is only forced to have materia equipped in the very beginning. Thunder and Blizzard. So he is pretty magically challenged here. lol

Well I think yes, but I recall he canonically receives the Shiva Materia if I am not mistaken (In Final Fantasy VII) correct me if I'm wrong, I think it's after saving a little girl. So, if that counts, we have Thunder, Blizzard and a Summon Materia for Cloud including his super-human strength. Although, I suppose we are comparing the Cloud from the present, which it doesn't uses Materia.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Well I think yes, but I recall he canonically receives the Shiva Materia if I am not mistaken (In Final Fantasy VII) correct me if I'm wrong, I think it's after saving a little girl. So, if that counts, we have Thunder, Blizzard and a Summon Materia for Cloud including his super-human strength. Although, I suppose we are comparing the Cloud from the present, which it doesn't uses Materia.

No. Thats correct. I forgot about that. I was just using the materia the game makes you have equipped and Shiva can just be given to anyone after you get it. In that case, Cloud would also receive cure, since Barret gives it to you. With that, plus the summon, Cloud has a very high probability of success. In a straight up melee fight, not sure. I don't recall many strength feats from Zidane, but he is most likely more nimble than Cloud.

First_Tsurugi06
Originally posted by NemeBro
Zidane wins for being ****ing awesome and not emosteak like Cloud is.

thumb up

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
No. Thats correct. I forgot about that. I was just using the materia the game makes you have equipped and Shiva can just be given to anyone after you get it. In that case, Cloud would also receive cure, since Barret gives it to you. With that, plus the summon, Cloud has a very high probability of success. In a straight up melee fight, not sure. I don't recall many strength feats from Zidane, but he is most likely more nimble than Cloud.

Oh I see, well if that's the case then let's leave the Summons away, is also unfair for Zidane. What I see from this fight is that Cloud got the upper hand in physical strength and endurance, on the other hand Zidane got the upper hand in agility and speed, Zidane must be the most agile Final Fantasy character in my opinion. But hey, Cloud is also fast, not agile like a monkey though. Zidane can't pass to his Trance form like nothing, remember that 'Trance' is induced by a surge of emotion.

TacDavey
You can't use materia just like you can't use FFXII's skills. It's all up to the player who uses what. Unless GrieverSquall want's to specifically lay out materia that Cloud has, of course.

Zidane was an ultra powerful "angel of death" as the game puts it. Sent to destroy the world, basically. That must mean at full strength he's more than a nimble thief. I don't see Cloud topping that at all. Zidane is probably one of the most powerful FF characters now that I think about it.

GrieverSquall
Well... Actually Cloud doesn't use Materia anymore...

Zidane was made to destroy the world? What world? Gaia? Kuja was the 'Angel of Death' at first, he caused destruction by giving birth to powerful Black Mages and provoking wars in the planet, that's the true purpose of the 'Angel of Death' as far as I know.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by TacDavey
You can't use materia just like you can't use FFXII's skills. It's all up to the player who uses what. Unless GrieverSquall want's to specifically lay out materia that Cloud has, of course.

Zidane was an ultra powerful "angel of death" as the game puts it. Sent to destroy the world, basically. That must mean at full strength he's more than a nimble thief. I don't see Cloud topping that at all. Zidane is probably one of the most powerful FF characters now that I think about it.

Technically not. We have been specifying what materia Cloud does get story wise through the game. Blizzard and Thunder are a given, and Cure is also possibly acceptable.

Zidane also lacks the control of his powers. He "can" be a super awesome angel of death. But he never really taps into the power. Trance is the closest he gets to it.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Well... Actually Cloud doesn't use Materia anymore...

Zidane was made to destroy the world? What world? Gaia? Kuja was the 'Angel of Death' at first, he caused destruction by giving birth to powerful Black Mages and provoking wars in the planet, that's the true purpose of the 'Angel of Death' as far as I know.

You said in the op, Final Fantasy VII. Meaning we have to tuck AC away until otherwise. Lets not limit Cloud to his big sword. Rather unfair.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
You said in the op, Final Fantasy VII. Meaning we have to tuck AC away until otherwise. Lets not limit Cloud to his big sword. Rather unfair.

Ok, got it. So this is Final Fantasy VII Cloud, then.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Zidane also lacks the control of his powers. He "can" be a super awesome angel of death. But he never really taps into the power. Trance is the closest he gets to it.

Actually, Zidane has never shown that kind of power whatsoever, not even near. I don't remember Garland speaking such thing either. Like I said, the true purpose of the 'Angel of Death' is just to cause destruction in Gaia, mostly with wars, giving birth to Black Mages, manipulating countries, etc. (What Kuja did). Not to blow a planet. The difference between Zidane and Kuja, is that Zidane is a Genome who developed feelings and the power to pass to a Trance form normally, when Kuja lacks that ability.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Zidane was made to destroy the world? What world? Gaia? Kuja was the 'Angel of Death' at first, he caused destruction by giving birth to powerful Black Mages and provoking wars in the planet, that's the true purpose of the 'Angel of Death' as far as I know.

That's one way to do it, but Kuja destroyed Terra all by himself. They have the ability. Plus, doesn't Garland say Zidane is stronger than Kuja at one point? He's says "Kuja couldn't stand to see a genome more powerful than him."

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Technically not. We have been specifying what materia Cloud does get story wise through the game. Blizzard and Thunder are a given, and Cure is also possibly acceptable.

Yes but who equips them? Cloud, or Barret or Tifa? All up to the player. Sure, maybe the plot says they get the materia, but it's still up to the player to decide who uses it. You could say Cloud uses Blizzard and Thunder because that's what he started out with, but even that is easily changed.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Zidane also lacks the control of his powers. He "can" be a super awesome angel of death. But he never really taps into the power. Trance is the closest he gets to it.

True, but I'd still be willing to bet a part of "super awesome angel of death" would be enough to beat most people. Though it's true we never really know how much of his original abilities he has.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
That's one way to do it, but Kuja destroyed Terra all by himself. They have the ability. Plus, doesn't Garland say Zidane is stronger than Kuja at one point? He's says "Kuja couldn't stand to see a genome more powerful than him."

That's the way to do it. Yes, Kuja destroyed Terra by himself, but he can't Trance naturally like Zidane, remember? Zidane is superior to him. That wasn't supposed to happen either. He developed such power just by absorbing all the souls from the Invincible, otherwise he wouldn't have destroyed absolutely anything. The Trance form Kuja has got, is something Zidane could never reach.

Nephthys
Garland says that Zidane was made to surpass Kuja, meaning he had the potential to do so. Potential power /= Actualised power.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Nephthys
Garland says that Zidane was made to surpass Kuja, meaning he had the potential to do so. Potential power /= Actualised power.

You don't get it.
Yes, Zidane was made to replace Kuja.
But Kuja reached that Trance form just because he absorbed all the souls from the Invincible, not because those are his own powers, therefore Zidane could never be able to reach/surpass that. Zidane is superior to Kuja because he can reach Trance normally through his feelings, Kuja can't, Zidane is superior to him.

Either way, Zidane has never shown the potential to surpass Kuja in his normal form even if he does have the potential to do so.

Heythere,Honey
What specific weapons are they using here?

GrieverSquall
Cloud is using his Buster Sword (since it's Final Fantasy VII Cloud) and Zidane his Daggers, I suppose.

Nephthys
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You don't get it.
Yes, Zidane was made to replace Kuja.
But Kuja reached that Trance form just because he absorbed all the souls from the Invincible, not because those are his own powers, therefore Zidane could never be able to reach/surpass that. Zidane is superior to Kuja because he can reach Trance normally through his feelings, Kuja can't, Zidane is superior to him.

Either way, Zidane has never shown the potential to surpass Kuja in his normal form even if he does have the potential to do so.

That doesn't make him stronger in a one-on-one setting, it means that he has the potential to be stronger if he trances and even then there is no proof that Trace Zidane (current)> Kuja. Zidane was made to surpass Kuja, there is no proof that he did so. Thus the fact that he was made for that is redundant.

And I always get it! miffed (from your mum)

Damn you with your edit/me just not reading the last paragraph skillz thus making you agree with me and making my entire post redundant itself!!!!

*shakes fist*

Heythere,Honey
Cloud might not be able to hit Zidane.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Nephthys
That doesn't make him stronger in a one-on-one setting, it means that he has the potential to be stronger if he trances and even then there is no proof that Trace Zidane (current)> Kuja. Zidane was made to surpass Kuja, there is no proof that he did so. Thus the fact that he was made for that is redundant.

That's okay.

The fact here is, that Trance Kuja is beyond Zidane or Trance Zidane. Because Kuja absorbing all the souls from the Invincible is something that NEVER is supposed to happen. Hell, Trance Kuja would destroy Alexander.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That's okay.

The fact here is, that Trance Kuja is beyond Zidane or Trance Zidane. Because Kuja absorbing all the souls from the Invincible is something that NEVER is supposed to happen. Hell, Trance Kuja would destroy Alexander.

You may have a point there.

Even so, I'd still say Zidane comes out on top. Kuja was powerful before trance, and Zidane was made to be more powerful. He may not have the ability to destroy the world, but he was made to be a killing machine nonetheless.

MadMel
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You don't get it.
Yes, Zidane was made to replace Kuja.
But Kuja reached that Trance form just because he absorbed all the souls from the Invincible, not because those are his own powers, therefore Zidane could never be able to reach/surpass that. Zidane is superior to Kuja because he can reach Trance normally through his feelings, Kuja can't, Zidane is superior to him.

Either way, Zidane has never shown the potential to surpass Kuja in his normal form even if he does have the potential to do so.
just to add to this...
zidane surpasses kuja in the aspect that he is immortal, unlike kuja, who had a limited lifespan, as garland said erm

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Heythere,Honey
Cloud might not be able to hit Zidane.

I wouldn't say that, Cloud's pretty fast.

Originally posted by Tac
I'd still say Zidane comes out on top. Kuja was powerful before trance, and Zidane was made to be more powerful. He may not have the ability to destroy the world, but he was made to be a killing machine nonetheless.

Zidane hasn't shown to be more powerful than Kuja, though. I repeat, Zidane might be superior to Kuja, due that he developed feelings, through them can enter Trance normally and his life can be longer than other Genomes (Including Kuja). But Kuja can't do anything of that he lacks those abilities.

I'd say: Trance Zidane > Kuja.
Still, Zidane hasn't shown to be stronger than even Beatrix.

Originally posted by MadMel
just to add to this...
zidane surpasses kuja in the aspect that he is immortal, unlike kuja, who had a limited lifespan, as garland said erm

He can live longer, yes. Immortal? Where it says Zidane is immortal?

Heythere,Honey
Can Cloud use his limit breaks at the start of the fight?

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Zidane hasn't shown to be more powerful than Kuja, though. I repeat, Zidane might be superior to Kuja, due that he developed feelings, through them can enter Trance normally and his life can be longer than other Genomes (Including Kuja). But Kuja can't do anything of that he lacks those abilities.

I'd say: Trance Zidane > Kuja.
Still, Zidane hasn't shown to be stronger than even Beatrix.

Perhaps not, though I think Trance Zidane is likely stronger.

But even if Zidane never fully becomes stronger than Kuja, we was still made to be stronger. And that still says a lot. A lesser form of a god is still a god when compared to mortals.

Nephthys
To an ant, I am a lesser form of God. Can I kick Clouds ass?

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Heythere,Honey
Can Cloud use his limit breaks at the start of the fight?

Well... I dunno, yes, I suppose.

Originally posted by Heythere,Honey
Perhaps not, though I think Trance Zidane is likely stronger.

But even if Zidane never fully becomes stronger than Kuja, we was still made to be stronger. And that still says a lot. A lesser form of a god is still a god when compared to mortals.

Ok, if Trance Zidane is literally or supposedly stronger than Kuja, why Zidane didn't fought Kuja by himself? In all the story it seems Kuja is stronger than Zidane or at least he have got more power (Remember that Kuja is the Angel of Death at first). Perhaps Zidane successfully surpasses him when Kuja dies. But that didn't happen.

TheAuraAngel
Zidane may have been designed to be stronger than Kuja. But on a site where feats are the only thing that matters, what is stated hardly matters much. Most of us need to see feats to argue for or against Zidane here.

NemeBro
Zidane never reached that potential and definately never showed it.

TacDavey
Originally posted by Nephthys
To an ant, I am a lesser form of God. Can I kick Clouds ass?

You missed the point completely.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Well... I dunno, yes, I suppose.



Ok, if Trance Zidane is literally or supposedly stronger than Kuja, why Zidane didn't fought Kuja by himself? In all the story it seems Kuja is stronger than Zidane or at least he have got more power (Remember that Kuja is the Angel of Death at first). Perhaps Zidane successfully surpasses him when Kuja dies. But that didn't happen.

I never said he was stronger than Kuja. Especially since Kuja absorbed the souls. But he was made to be ultra powerful, and even though he only has a fraction of that power, I would argue that is still more than Cloud has.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Zidane may have been designed to be stronger than Kuja. But on a site where feats are the only thing that matters, what is stated hardly matters much. Most of us need to see feats to argue for or against Zidane here.

Sadly there is no such feats. Zidane never does anything by himself, really. He always has his team with him. If you will only accept feats, then Zidane doesn't really have anything that can be used here. He fought Trance Kuja, who had the power to destroy a world like it was nothing, but he had his team with him, so it's hard to really judge anything from that. He also fought that ultimate crazy last boss which was going to basically destroy all life everywhere, but again, he had his team with him.

The same can be said of Cloud. He didn't do much on his own either. We don't only look at feats. Cloud being genetically enhanced is as much evidence as him fighting Sephiroth.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
I never said he was stronger than Kuja. Especially since Kuja absorbed the souls. But he was made to be ultra powerful, and even though he only has a fraction of that power, I would argue that is still more than Cloud has.

him fighting Sephiroth.

Normal Kuja alone seems to be more powerful than Zidane, unless you suggest Zidane got the power to create Black Mages or to manipulate monsters from the Mist. Trance Kuja is far more powerful and he, abosorbing those souls is something that isn't suppposed to happen.

Again, Zidane is superior to Kuja by default, by 'default' I mean his Trance and feelings, that's default. Zidane was made to replace Kuja and become the new 'Angel of Death', until that moment Zidane isn't stronger nor powerful than Kuja and since that NEVER HAPPENED (Because Kuja was never replaced as the Angel of Death) we can't say Zidane got that potential whatsoever.

Sephiroth is stronger than Cloud though.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Normal Kuja alone seems to be more powerful than Zidane, unless you suggest Zidane got the power to create Black Mages or to manipulate monsters from the Mist. Trance Kuja is far more powerful and he, abosorbing those souls is something that isn't suppposed to happen.

Again, Zidane is superior to Kuja by default, by 'default' I mean his Trance and feelings, that's default. Zidane was made to replace Kuja and become the new 'Angel of Death', until that moment Zidane isn't stronger nor powerful than Kuja and since that NEVER HAPPENED (Because Kuja was never replaced as the Angel of Death) we can't say Zidane got that potential whatsoever.

Sephiroth is stronger than Cloud though.

Kuja doesn't have the ability to just pop up Black Mages with a snap of his fingers. He makes then in a factory.

No, Garland says he is more powerful. Those are his words. He isn't better because he can go into Trance, that is only a part of it. Even though he never fully realized those powers, that still shows he is a force to be reckoned with, especially when he's got Trance on his side.

The fact that Sephiroth is stronger than Cloud is irrelevant. I was just making a point.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
Kuja doesn't have the ability to just pop up Black Mages with a snap of his fingers. He makes then in a factory.

No, Garland says he is more powerful. Those are his words. He isn't better because he can go into Trance, that is only a part of it. Even though he never fully realized those powers, that still shows he is a force to be reckoned with, especially when he's got Trance on his side.

But Kuja uses his powers to do it.

I'm not saying Zidane wasn't made to be more powerful.
He's superior because he can go into Trance naturally through his feelings, Kuja can't, Zidane is superior by default, when Zidane becomes the Angel of Death as Garland stated he will be definitely more powerful than Kuja. But that never happened.

MadMel
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
He can live longer, yes. Immortal? Where it says Zidane is immortal?
garland was trying to make the perfect immortal angel of death
kuja was exp no. 1 - and a failure, because he would eventually die
zidane was exp no. 2 - and a success, because he could live forever erm

thats the whole reason why kuja went berserk when he learned he was mortal, and tried to destroy the life crystal - because he believed that nothing else should live while he died..

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by MadMel
garland was trying to make the perfect immortal angel of death
kuja was exp no. 1 - and a failure, because he would eventually die
zidane was exp no. 2 - and a success, because he could live forever erm

thats the whole reason why kuja went berserk when he learned he was mortal, and tried to destroy the life crystal - because he believed that nothing else should live while he died..

True that.
It doesn't matter what Garland WAS trying to do though.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
But Kuja uses his powers to do it.

I'm not saying Zidane wasn't made to be more powerful.
He's superior because he can go into Trance naturally through his feelings, Kuja can't, Zidane is superior by default, when Zidane becomes the Angel of Death as Garland stated he will be definitely more powerful than Kuja. But that never happened.

There isn't some kind of ceremony Zidane goes through to become the angel of death. He just is. He doesn't have his full powers because he grew up on Gaia and never learned of his abilities until halfway through the game. He's not superior JUST because he can go into Trance.

GrieverSquall
Tac, Kuja is the Angel of Death, Zidane was made to replace him, he wasn't officially the Angel of Death. The one causing destruction as we see in Gaia, is Kuja. I repeat, Kuja absorbing all the souls from the Invincible, is something that it wasn't supposed to happen.

What do you mean by that? Are you saying that just because Zidane learned about his past he became stronger? And yes, he's superior because he can go into Trance, another points are Zidane's feelings and his life, he can live longer than Kuja.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Tac, Kuja is the Angel of Death, Zidane was made to replace him, he wasn't officially the Angel of Death. The one causing destruction as we see in Gaia, is Kuja. I repeat, Kuja absorbing all the souls from the Invincible, is something that it wasn't supposed to happen.

What do you mean by that? Are you saying that just because Zidane learned about his past he became stronger? And yes, he's superior because he can go into Trance, another points are Zidane's feelings and his life, he can live longer than Kuja.

Angel of Death is just a title, GrieverSquall. It doesn't make anyone stronger by having it.

But that's not the whole thing. It's not just Trance, he was made to be more powerful, Garland says so. He didn't say, "Kuja couldn't stand to see a genome that could go into Trance." Zidane was created to be more powerful than Kuja, plain and simple. Part of that is Trance, but that doesn't make up ALL of it. If it does, then we would have to say Zidane is stronger than Kuja, because if all it takes to be stronger than Kuja is to go into Trance, than Zidane is stronger than Kuja, because he can. And before you say anything, I'm talking about normal Kuja here. Furthermore, his feelings and life don't contribute to his power at all. I wouldn't say someone is stronger than another because he will out live him, that doesn't make any sense.

NemeBro
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
True that.
It doesn't matter what Garland WAS trying to do though. He said Zidane was a success, so we can safely assume he is immortal.

TheAuraAngel
One can't just limit oneself to just feats at all times. You have to consider other things, like the characters. Cloud joined a mercenary group, fought with a huge sword, and was by logic, a very strong combat specialist. Zidane on the other hand, is a thief. He carries smaller weapons, so we can't assume he is particularly physically strong without a feat. That being said, he has shown to be far more nimble that Cloud and has a tail to compliment unorthodox style of combat. Him and his crew were also trained to be strong in combat, as you can tell from the beginning of the game. If Cloud has access to his magic, he takes it. If not, I want to know if Zidane shows any feat of being able to keep up with someone who is genetically enhanced to be strong.

TacDavey
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
One can't just limit oneself to just feats at all times. You have to consider other things, like the characters. Cloud joined a mercenary group, fought with a huge sword, and was by logic, a very strong combat specialist. Zidane on the other hand, is a thief. He carries smaller weapons, so we can't assume he is particularly physically strong without a feat. That being said, he has shown to be far more nimble that Cloud and has a tail to compliment unorthodox style of combat. Him and his crew were also trained to be strong in combat, as you can tell from the beginning of the game. If Cloud has access to his magic, he takes it. If not, I want to know if Zidane shows any feat of being able to keep up with someone who is genetically enhanced to be strong.

Keep up? Zidane himself is enhanced beyond human capabilities. He's a genome created to reek havoc and chaos. Especially when he's Tranced. Zidane and Cloud are both super human, though Zidane isn't actually a human.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
Angel of Death is just a title, GrieverSquall. It doesn't make anyone stronger by having it.

But that's not the whole thing. It's not just Trance, he was made to be more powerful, Garland says so. He didn't say, "Kuja couldn't stand to see a genome that could go into Trance." Zidane was created to be more powerful than Kuja, plain and simple. Part of that is Trance, but that doesn't make up ALL of it. If it does, then we would have to say Zidane is stronger than Kuja, because if all it takes to be stronger than Kuja is to go into Trance, than Zidane is stronger than Kuja, because he can. And before you say anything, I'm talking about normal Kuja here. Furthermore, his feelings and life don't contribute to his power at all. I wouldn't say someone is stronger than another because he will out live him, that doesn't make any sense.

I didn't said that makes Zidane stronger or less stronger than Kuja. Kuja was doing what an Angel of Death does though, cause destruction.

I never said Zidane wasn't made to be more powerful. Trance is a higher level of power, which Zidane can naturally reach, Kuja lacks that ability, thus making Zidane superior by default, why are you denying it? No, we can't say Zidane is stronger than Kuja, Zidane may have the potential to surpass him, but that doesn't mean that he's automatically stronger even when don't have evidence of that, I mean... Come on, Kuja is stronger, you can see it in the game itself, there are no signs of Zidane having a greater power than him. We have just Garland's words to prove it, but that isn't enough. His feelings and life contributes that he's superior to Kuja. Not all is power when it comes to be superior, you know. That's stated anyway, unless you're going against facts.

Originally posted by NemeBro
He said Zidane was a success, so we can safely assume he is immortal.

I never said he wasn't.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I didn't said that makes Zidane stronger or less stronger than Kuja. Kuja was doing what an Angel of Death does though, cause destruction.

I never said Zidane wasn't made to be more powerful. Trance is a higher level of power, which Zidane can naturally reach, Kuja lacks that ability, thus making Zidane superior by default, why are you denying it? No, we can't say Zidane is stronger than Kuja, Zidane may have the potential to surpass him, but that doesn't mean that he's automatically stronger even when don't have evidence of that, I mean... Come on, Kuja is stronger, you can see it in the game itself, there are no signs of Zidane having a greater power than him. We have just Garland's words to prove it, but that isn't enough. His feelings and life contributes that he's superior to Kuja. Not all is power when it comes to be superior, you know. That's stated anyway, unless you're going against facts.

It sounded like you were saying that the only reason Zidane was more power than Kuja was because Garland gave him Trance, correct me if I'm wrong.

No, I know Zidane isn't stronger than Kuja. But he was MADE to be. If he uses the full amount of his abilities he WOULD be.

But even though he doesn't have all his abilities, just a fraction of them is still pretty powerful, especially when you toss Trance into the mix.

Now, it's a little uncertain how much of his abilities he ever gets. It's also uncertain just how much Cloud's Jenova Cells enhance his abilities, so we have to guess a little here. I would argue that Zidane enhancements, if you want to call it that, surpass Cloud's. But even if we accept that, say, they are equal. Zidane still has Trance on his side.

AsbestosFlaygon
Cloud VS Zidane?

This level of faggotry is too much for me to take.

TacDavey
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Cloud VS Zidane?

This level of faggotry is too much for me to take.

Thanks for keeping us informed....

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
It sounded like you were saying that the only reason Zidane was more power than Kuja was because Garland gave him Trance, correct me if I'm wrong.

No, I know Zidane isn't stronger than Kuja. But he was MADE to be. If he uses the full amount of his abilities he WOULD be.

But even though he doesn't have all his abilities, just a fraction of them is still pretty powerful, especially when you toss Trance into the mix.

Now, it's a little uncertain how much of his abilities he ever gets. It's also uncertain just how much Cloud's Jenova Cells enhance his abilities, so we have to guess a little here. I would argue that Zidane enhancements, if you want to call it that, surpass Cloud's. But even if we accept that, say, they are equal. Zidane still has Trance on his side.

No, that's not what I meant, I never said that GARLAND gave Trance to Zidane, therefore he's more powerful than Kuja just only because of THAT. I didn't say that. I said, that Trance is one of the powers that makes Zidane superior by DEFAULT than Kuja. I mean... If both of them were about to be born again, Zidane would be always superior by default, because he IS superior by default, was made to replace Kuja and, obviously, was made to be more powerful than him. I hope you understand.

Exactly, we have an agreement here, Tac. We don't know 'how much' power, but we do know they are enhanced, thus they are super-humans. Still, comparing Zidane to a normal human i.e. (Tidus or Vaan) would make him literally, super-human (even if he isn't a human). We really NEVER see Zidane's feats, anything at all, we do know he goes into Trance and that enhances his abilities, still we can't say those powers surpasses Cloud's though.

AsbestosFlaygon
Originally posted by TacDavey
Thanks for keeping us informed....
NO U!

You're acting all tough now just coz you're behind that monitor.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No, that's not what I meant, I never said that GARLAND gave Trance to Zidane, therefore he's more powerful than Kuja just only because of THAT. I didn't say that. I said, that Trance is one of the powers that makes Zidane superior by DEFAULT than Kuja. I mean... If both of them were about to be born again, Zidane would be always superior by default, because he IS superior by default, was made to replace Kuja and, obviously, was made to be more powerful than him. I hope you understand.

Exactly, we have an agreement here, Tac. We don't know 'how much' power, but we do know they are enhanced, thus they are super-humans. Still, comparing Zidane to a normal human i.e. (Tidus or Vaan) would make him literally, super-human (even if he isn't a human). We really NEVER see Zidane's feats, anything at all, we do know he goes into Trance and that enhances his abilities, still we can't say those powers surpasses Cloud's though.

I think it does. We know they are both Super Human. I'd say that Zidane's abilities are more than Clouds, but since we don't have conclusive evidence for that, we really can't say more than they are both above human abilities. But on top of that, Zidane has Trance, which greatly increases his power, so that puts Zidane ahead.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
NO U!

You're acting all tough now just coz you're behind that monitor.

And because I'm tough.

wakkawakkawakka
I was on Zidane's side at first because I thought that Trance was pretty much the Super Saiyan power-up of IX and the fact that Cloud annoys me. However I'm confused as to how Zidane would win now; I'm a little discouraged.

Also how does levelling the power of Trance that Zidane has give Cloud an edge?

TacDavey
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I was on Zidane's side at first because I thought that Trance was pretty much the Super Saiyan power-up of IX and the fact that Cloud annoys me. However I'm confused as to how Zidane would win now; I'm a little discouraged.

Also how does levelling the power of Trance that Zidane has give Cloud an edge?

What do you mean? Trance pretty much is the super saiyan of IX. What do you mean by leveling the power of Trance?

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
I think it does. We know they are both Super Human. I'd say that Zidane's abilities are more than Clouds, but since we don't have conclusive evidence for that, we really can't say more than they are both above human abilities. But on top of that, Zidane has Trance, which greatly increases his power, so that puts Zidane ahead.

Why Zidane's abilities are more than Cloud's? What do you mean by that? Yeah, Trance increases his abilities and I guess he can use some sort of Magic with it as he showed in the game (attacks like Tidal Flame). But... Also Cloud with Materia (if you give him the opportunity to do it).

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Why Zidane's abilities are more than Cloud's? What do you mean by that? Yeah, Trance increases his abilities and I guess he can use some sort of Magic with it as he showed in the game (attacks like Tidal Flame). But... Also Cloud with Materia (if you give him the opportunity to do it).

But I wouldn't. What materia would he have? It's completely left up to the player. Unless you want to specify exactly what materia Cloud has in this fight.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
But I wouldn't. What materia would he have? It's completely left up to the player. Unless you want to specify exactly what materia Cloud has in this fight.

Thunder and Blizzard (for example).

Still... How comes Zidane's abilities are more than Cloud's? You can say this when he's in his Trance form, but Zidane has not abilities at his disposal in his regular form. I suppose he starts the battle with his regular form...

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Thunder and Blizzard (for example).

Still... How comes Zidane's abilities are more than Cloud's? You can say this when he's in his Trance form, but Zidane has not abilities at his disposal in his regular form. I suppose he starts the battle with his regular form...

Alright, let's say Cloud has Blizzard and Thunder. He doesn't seem to be much of a mage. He's more of a close range fighter. I don't think those will help him all that much.

I can't say for certain that his abilities are more advanced because, again, we have no idea the extent either one of them are. But it seems to me that a lesser powered genome angel of death destructo thing would still be more powerful than a genetically enhanced super soldier.

But again, that can't really be verified. It really all comes down to Trance, I think. That gives Zidane an edge Cloud doesn't have.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
Alright, let's say Cloud has Blizzard and Thunder. He doesn't seem to be much of a mage. He's more of a close range fighter. I don't think those will help him all that much.

I can't say for certain that his abilities are more advanced because, again, we have no idea the extent either one of them are. But it seems to me that a lesser powered genome angel of death destructo thing would still be more powerful than a genetically enhanced super soldier.

But again, that can't really be verified. It really all comes down to Trance, I think. That gives Zidane an edge Cloud doesn't have.

Zidane doesn't seem to be much of a mage either, still that doesn't mean he can't use Magic and that his attacks can't be powerful. Zidane is also a close range fighter.

Actually... We don't have anything that shows Zidane's true abilities. Not even a strong hint. We have just that little Gameplay cutscene showing to us, that he can have access to Trance, we have nothing to rely on... You said that the: 'Angel of Death' was just a title and that doesn't make him stronger if I recall. Being a Genome doesn't mean he's super-powerful as there are a lot of them and they aren't strong.

I dunno.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Zidane doesn't seem to be much of a mage either, still that doesn't mean he can't use Magic and that his attacks can't be powerful. Zidane is also a close range fighter.

Okay, so? This is irrelevant. We were talking about Cloud, not Zidane. I never said Cloud couldn't use magic, I simply said it wouldn't help him much. The fact that Zidane is also a close range fighter has no relation to the previous point at all.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Actually... We don't have anything that shows Zidane's true abilities. Not even a strong hint. We have just that little Gameplay cutscene showing to us, that he can have access to Trance, we have nothing to rely on... You said that the: 'Angel of Death' was just a title and that doesn't make him stronger if I recall. Being a Genome doesn't mean he's super-powerful as there are a lot of them and they aren't strong.

I dunno.

I never said the Angel of Death title gave him anything, nor did I say he was more powerful just because he was a genome. But Genome's are artificially created creatures. They aren't pre-existing things that you have to upgrade, like Cloud is. So if you have one made specifically to be a powerful killing machine, I would think it would be more powerful than taking a previous life from and augmenting it's abilities.

But this doesn't matter anyway. I already admitted I can't actually back any of this up, and there is no real demonstration of either of the characters level of power.

So again, all we know for certain is both of them are super human. But on top of that, Zidane has Trance.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
Okay, so? This is irrelevant. We were talking about Cloud, not Zidane. I never said Cloud couldn't use magic, I simply said it wouldn't help him much. The fact that Zidane is also a close range fighter has no relation to the previous point at all.

Why irrelevant? I know you were talking about Cloud. Although, I'm talking about both. I never said that you said Cloud couldn't use Magic. You said that Cloud doesn't seem to be much of a mage, I said that does not mean his attacks can't be powerful and that he can't use Magic. You said he was a close range fighter, I said Zidane is also a close range fighter. Just pointing things out.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I never said the Angel of Death title gave him anything, nor did I say he was more powerful just because he was a genome.

Why did you said: 'But it seems to me that a lesser powered genome angel of death destructo thing would still be more powerful' then? I mean... You are using both words here to point out that Zidane is more powerful, however you are saying that does not make him more powerful. This isn't a bit contradictory?

Originally posted by TacDavey
But Genome's are artificially created creatures. They aren't pre-existing things that you have to upgrade, like Cloud is. So if you have one made specifically to be a powerful killing machine, I would think it would be more powerful than taking a previous life from and augmenting it's abilities.

But this doesn't matter anyway. I already admitted I can't actually back any of this up, and there is no real demonstration of either of the characters level of power.

So again, all we know for certain is both of them are super human. But on top of that, Zidane has Trance.

Yeah, Zidane has Trance but he couldn't take Beatrix with it.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Why irrelevant? I know you were talking about Cloud. Although, I'm talking about both. I never said that you said Cloud couldn't use Magic. You said that Cloud doesn't seem to be much of a mage, I said that does not mean his attacks can't be powerful and that he can't use Magic. You said he was a close range fighter, I said Zidane is also a close range fighter. Just pointing things out.

My original point was that giving Cloud magic wouldn't up his chances very much, depending on the spell, obviously.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Why did you said: 'But it seems to me that a lesser powered genome angel of death destructo thing would still be more powerful' then? I mean... You are using both words here to point out that Zidane is more powerful, however you are saying that does not make him more powerful. This isn't a bit contradictory?

I'm using those words to describe him, I'm not saying that's where he gets his power.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Yeah, Zidane has Trance but he couldn't take Beatrix with it.

Well, then the obvious next question is:

Do you think Cloud can?

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
My original point was that giving Cloud magic wouldn't up his chances very much, depending on the spell, obviously.

Oh, I see. Well, like I said, if we give Cloud the opportunity to use some Magical Spells, then those would be Blizzard and Thunder.
Well, giving Cloud some Magic would obviously increase his chance a bit. Zidane has no abilities in his regular form and he can't go into Trance whenever he wants.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I'm using those words to describe him, I'm not saying that's where he gets his power.

Ok, cool.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Well, then the obvious next question is:

Do you think Cloud can?

You mean if he can defeat Beatrix by himself? Why not? He didn't fought the strongest warrior in his own world? Even if we know that Cloud isn't stronger than Sephiroth, he still could go against him. Besides Sephiroth is a super-human and Beatrix is a very skilled and strong human. She defeated Zidane, Freya and Vivi by herself without any kind nor signs of efforts whatsoever. I also think Cloud is a more experienced fighter than Zidane which can give him the edge.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Oh, I see. Well, like I said, if we give Cloud the opportunity to use some Magical Spells, then those would be Blizzard and Thunder.
Well, giving Cloud some Magic would obviously increase his chance a bit. Zidane has no abilities in his regular form and he can't go into Trance whenever he wants.

But we still have to count it as one of his abilities. It's not very clear exactly what a "surge of emotion" entails, but doesn't seem to be a very rare thing.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You mean if he can defeat Beatrix by himself? Why not? He didn't fought the strongest warrior in his own world? Even if we know that Cloud isn't stronger than Sephiroth, he still could go against him. Besides Sephiroth is a super-human and Beatrix is a very skilled and strong human. She defeated Zidane, Freya and Vivi by herself without any kind nor signs of efforts whatsoever. I also think Cloud is a more experienced fighter than Zidane which can give him the edge.

Well, that's the thing. Beatrix defeated a super human, along with his team, by herself. What makes you think Cloud can do it ALONE? Beatrix is somewhat of an oddity. She's apparently the baddest mutha licka in all of Gaia. She even used her power to break that supposedly unbreakable spell that the twins, who specialize in magic, cast on Garnet.

Let's not underestimate Beatrix, here. She may technically be human, but she's pretty flippin powerful. (Though she is substantially weaker when she joins up with you...)

TheAuraAngel
Well, lets at least list feats that make Cloud super human here: He is able to wield the buster sword, take a stab straight through the chest by Sephiroth and still send him flying off a reactor bridge, and survived falling off a bridge at mountain height when he was 9 years old and ending up with only a few scrapped knees whereas Tifa was out for weeks. This is all before he was genetically upgraded to be super strong. Now we need some Zidane feats and because I've yet to beat 9 all the way, I can't list them.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
But we still have to count it as one of his abilities. It's not very clear exactly what a "surge of emotion" entails, but doesn't seem to be a very rare thing.

Of course. But in this battle, Zidane would begin with his regular form, not already in Trance, right? Well, surely they meant something about his feelings, they literally explains that Trance is somewhat related to their feelings. For example, Steiner goes into Trance when he's fighting along with Beatrix, in those battles (I don't really remember what they said) both of them talks to each other, and in some of those lines, Steiner goes automatically into Trance (correct me if I'm wrong). Also Zidane when Garnet is captured by that monster and is totally in danger. I don't know how Zidane's Trance would surge in a fight against Cloud...

Originally posted by TacDavey
Well, that's the thing. Beatrix defeated a super human, along with his team, by herself. What makes you think Cloud can do it ALONE? Beatrix is somewhat of an oddity. She's apparently the baddest mutha licka in all of Gaia. She even used her power to break that supposedly unbreakable spell that the twins, who specialize in magic, cast on Garnet.

Let's not underestimate Beatrix, here. She may technically be human, but she's pretty flippin powerful. (Though she is substantially weaker when she joins up with you...).

Beatrix is far more experienced that Zidane and all of his team, that's why she defeated them. Still, I wouldn't call Zidane so 'super-human' at that point, he surely never showed being a super-human in any of the battles you fight against Beatrix. Beatrix defeated all of his team. He never showed to be above Beatrix. Cloud is different, I do believe Cloud is more experienced than Zidane. You admit Zidane isn't stronger than Beatrix then, even with Trance included. Because in all of those battles Zidane has Trance already and he could have used it. And if he hasn't used it in those, then what makes us think he will use it against Cloud? You said Beatrix defeated a super-human, aren't you overrating Zidane here? Maybe he isn't so strong as you want him to be.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Now we need some Zidane feats and because I've yet to beat 9 all the way, I can't list them.

I have beat the game several times and I can't list them either. I don't remember much about his feats besides he is VERY agile.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Of course. But in this battle, Zidane would begin with his regular form, not already in Trance, right? Well, surely they meant something about his feelings, they literally explains that Trance is somewhat related to their feelings. For example, Steiner goes into Trance when he's fighting along with Beatrix, in those battles (I don't really remember what they said) both of them talks to each other, and in some of those lines, Steiner goes automatically into Trance (correct me if I'm wrong). Also Zidane when Garnet is captured by that monster and is totally in danger. I don't know how Zidane's Trance would surge in a fight against Cloud...

Anger maybe? I dunno.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Beatrix is far more experienced that Zidane and all of his team, that's why she defeated them. Still, I wouldn't call Zidane so 'super-human' at that point, he surely never showed being a super-human in any of the battles you fight against Beatrix. Beatrix defeated all of his team. He never showed to be above Beatrix. Cloud is different, I do believe Cloud is more experienced than Zidane. You admit Zidane isn't stronger than Beatrix then, even with Trance included. Because in all of those battles Zidane has Trance already and he could have used it. And if he hasn't used it in those, then what makes us think he will use it against Cloud? You said Beatrix defeated a super-human, aren't you overrating Zidane here? Maybe he isn't so strong as you want him to be.

Why? Because he lost to Beatrix? Like I said, Beatrix isn't just some human. She seems to have quite the talent for magical abilities. She defeated, I think it was 100 soldiers by herself.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I have beat the game several times and I can't list them either. I don't remember much about his feats besides he is VERY agile.

There really isn't much Zidane does on his own. Most of the time he has his party with him.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
Anger maybe? I dunno.

Why? Because he lost to Beatrix? Like I said, Beatrix isn't just some human. She seems to have quite the talent for magical abilities. She defeated, I think it was 100 soldiers by herself.

There really isn't much Zidane does on his own. Most of the time he has his party with him.

Very likely. Look at Vivi when he went into Trance. Hey, I don't remember if all the characters have shown their Trance, I guess that the only ones are Zidane, Vivi and Steiner... I don't really remember much, Final Fantasy IX is my favorite game and I have played it a lot of times (even the Spanish version) but I don't remember much about the plot.

Yes, because he lost to Beatrix and not just once. Zidane lost to her three times with his team and Trance included. Beatrix is more experienced in battle, that's the thing. She's a human that uses Magic, like almost all the characters from Final Fantasy, if I recall. Being experienced gives her the edge here. I don't really think Zidane is that strong, not much as you making it sound. He almost gets killed in the third disc, he was saved by Garnet and one of her Magics. The only ones Zidane has defeated by himself are Baku and Amarant... Not a big deal. Zidane is most like an humanoid rather than a super-human, in my opinion.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Very likely. Look at Vivi when he went into Trance. Hey, I don't remember if all the characters have shown their Trance, I guess that the only ones are Zidane, Vivi and Steiner... I don't really remember much, Final Fantasy IX is my favorite game and I have played it a lot of times (even the Spanish version) but I don't remember much about the plot.

Yes, because he lost to Beatrix and not just once. Zidane lost to her three times with his team and Trance included. Beatrix is more experienced in battle, that's the thing. She's a human that uses Magic, like almost all the characters from Final Fantasy, if I recall. Being experienced gives her the edge here. I don't really think Zidane is that strong, not much as you making it sound. He almost gets killed in the third disc, he was saved by Garnet and one of her Magics. The only ones Zidane has defeated by himself are Baku and Amarant... Not a big deal. Zidane is most like an humanoid rather than a super-human, in my opinion.

That's because he doesn't really get a chance to show his abilities by himself. And wasn't Amarant known through out the land or something like that? That's a little bit of a big deal.

But I'll return to the question. Do you think Cloud can beat Beatrix and why?

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
That's because he doesn't really get a chance to show his abilities by himself. And wasn't Amarant known through out the land or something like that? That's a little bit of a big deal.

But I'll return to the question. Do you think Cloud can beat Beatrix and why?

Huh? He doesn't get the chance to show his abilities? What do you mean by that? And the whole game? Amarant is known through the land? What land? I recall he was just a bodyguard or something.

Yes, I guess Cloud would have more probabilities to win against Beatrix than Zidane who hasn't shown to be above her abilities, at all. First off, Cloud is more experienced in battle than Zidane, Vivi and probably Freya. Cloud has faced Sephiroth who is also a super-human and the best warrior in his world, what would stop Cloud in defeating Beatrix who is just a strong human? Wasn't Cloud genetically enhanced? I think he would definitely last more in a battle. Zidane lost three times against her and with his team, that's not even a joke and I don't think due Beatrix is a Goddess or something, she's actually pretty strong, I think Zidane isn't that strong. At least, this is what I think. You probably think that Beatrix is stronger than Cloud because she defeated Zidane and his team, I don't know. Plus, I don't really think that Beatrix could handle Cloud's above-human speed, strength and endurance nor his giant sword. Well, that's all.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Huh? He doesn't get the chance to show his abilities? What do you mean by that? And the whole game? Amarant is known through the land? What land? I recall he was just a bodyguard or something.

Yes, I guess Cloud would have more probabilities to win against Beatrix than Zidane who hasn't shown to be above her abilities, at all. First off, Cloud is more experienced in battle than Zidane, Vivi and probably Freya. Cloud has faced Sephiroth who is also a super-human and the best warrior in his world, what would stop Cloud in defeating Beatrix who is just a strong human? Wasn't Cloud genetically enhanced? I think he would definitely last more in a battle. Zidane lost three times against her and with his team, that's not even a joke and I don't think due Beatrix is a Goddess or something, she's actually pretty strong, I think Zidane isn't that strong. At least, this is what I think. You probably think that Beatrix is stronger than Cloud because she defeated Zidane and his team, I don't know. Plus, I don't really think that Beatrix could handle Cloud's above-human speed, strength and endurance nor his giant sword. Well, that's all.

No, he was known as the flaming Amerant, or something. He was known. Oh well, not important.

You seem to be continually downplaying Beatrix's abilities. She's not just "a strong human" she's practically a legend in that world. Her abilities surpass even that of the twins, who specialize completely in magic. She takes out small armies by herself.

I don't see any reason to consider Zidane weak for loosing to her. I don't see any of the other characters as weak, and they all lost.

I think Beatrix would be a match for Cloud all by himself. I wouldn't say Cloud could beat the entire FFIX team at once, would you?

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
No, he was known as the flaming Amerant, or something. He was known. Oh well, not important.

You seem to be continually downplaying Beatrix's abilities. She's not just "a strong human" she's practically a legend in that world. Her abilities surpass even that of the twins, who specialize completely in magic. She takes out small armies by herself.

I don't see any reason to consider Zidane weak for loosing to her. I don't see any of the other characters as weak, and they all lost.

I think Beatrix would be a match for Cloud all by himself. I wouldn't say Cloud could beat the entire FFIX team at once, would you?

Oh, I think you're right, he had that nickname, but I don't remember him being 'known' anywhere.

No... I'm not downplaying her abilities. If she's not a strong human, then what is she? She's very experienced I said. Twins? You mean Ton and Son (Zorn and Thorn)? But those two are weak, obviously she's stronger than both of them. What makes you think that Cloud wouldn't take that small army as well?

I'm not saying they are weak. I don't consider Zidane so 'strong' and 'powerful' after losing 3 times against her and aided by the members of his own team. Remember... You are the one saying that Zidane is super-human and powerful. I don't think it anymore. He is not even a human, he's from another race. He's like an humanoid, like I said. Freya, Quina, Garnet and Eiko (including Vivi) are from different races, the only humans in his team are Amarant and Steiner.

No, Cloud wouldn't beat 8 characters by himself, of course not. Beatrix either.

Nephthys
Amarant is human!!? Jesus Chist did he ever get his ass beat with an ugly stick.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Oh, I think you're right, he had that nickname, but I don't remember him being 'known' anywhere.

No... I'm not downplaying her abilities. If she's not a strong human, then what is she? She's very experienced I said. Twins? You mean Ton and Son (Zorn and Thorn)? But those two are weak, obviously she's stronger than both of them. What makes you think that Cloud wouldn't take that small army as well?

I'm not saying they are weak. I don't consider Zidane so 'strong' and 'powerful' after losing 3 times against her and aided by the members of his own team. Remember... You are the one saying that Zidane is super-human and powerful. I don't think it anymore. He is not even a human, he's from another race. He's like an humanoid, like I said. Freya, Quina, Garnet and Eiko (including Vivi) are from different races, the only humans in his team are Amarant and Steiner.

No, Cloud wouldn't beat 8 characters by himself, of course not. Beatrix either.

That's the thing. You claim that Zidane is weak because he lost to Beatrix. That's what you said, right?

"I don't consider Zidane so 'strong' and 'powerful' after losing 3 times against her and aided by the members of his own team."

But that doesn't show that Zidane is weak. Sephiroth is stronger than Cloud but that doesn't mean Cloud is weak. Beatrix is practically on a whole other level.

Your argument might be justified if Beatrix was shown to not be anything special, and Zidane lost to her. But that is not the case, in fact, it's quite the opposite.

Her ability to break Zorn and Thorns spell isn't something to sneeze at. Those two were powerful mages. They were the ones in charge of the magical tasks for the queen. They even went to far as to claim their spell was "unbreakable" but Beatrix was able to break it by herself, and she doesn't even specialize solely in magic, as the twins do.

Also: "He's like an humanoid, like I said. Freya, Quina, Garnet and Eiko (including Vivi) are from different races, the only humans in his team are Amarant and Steiner."

That doesn't matter. It's just a term used to show that he is above human abilities. I'd consider Superman super human, even though he isn't a human, really.

TheAuraAngel
Beatrix does have vastly superior magic to most characters. She's also a very strong sword fighter. But that's the problem. Her strength comes from her magic. Her Seiken skills all cost magic and you'll eventually run out. Other than that, she seems to be a normal but talented solider. I don't know if she could beat Cloud.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
That's the thing. You claim that Zidane is weak because he lost to Beatrix. That's what you said, right?

No, you got it wrong. You are misunderstanding.

Originally posted by TacDavey
But that doesn't show that Zidane is weak.

Beatrix is practically on a whole other level.

Your argument might be justified if Beatrix was shown to not be anything special, and Zidane lost to her. But that is not the case, in fact, it's quite the opposite.

Of course not, but it doesn't show he's incredibly powerful like you said either. He's just: 'strong', but not experienced as Beatrix is/was, that's why he lost. You have to look at the character's background. Their experience is something VERY important, the plot says it, Beatrix is a more experienced warrior than Zidane. Zidane is a thief, Beatrix is the best warrior in the Kingdom. The plot itself makes a difference between them.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Her ability to break Zorn and Thorns spell isn't something to sneeze at. Those two were powerful mages. They were the ones in charge of the magical tasks for the queen. They even went to far as to claim their spell was "unbreakable" but Beatrix was able to break it by herself, and she doesn't even specialize solely in magic, as the twins do.

Yes, she did break the spell, but you are overrating Zorn and Thorn now. They weren't anything special, at all. They said 'irrevocable', but it doesn't matter what they says (Beatrix said: 'I don't know if I can'), it matters to know that Beatrix is stronger than both of them, that's why she's the general. It could have been impressive if Vivi could have broken the spell. She specializes in both, combat and Magic.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That doesn't matter. It's just a term used to show that he is above human abilities. I'd consider Superman super human, even though he isn't a human, really.

He's above human abilities? In what sense? Because Beatrix shows the opposite, you know. If that were absolutely true (Which I doubt it NOW) then, it wouldn't make sense, seeing Zidane laying in a floor almost losing consciousness after been defeated by a human. I mean... Hey, Zidane isn't like the Superman in the Final Fantasy IX Universe, that's a joke.

linkownsyousobs
Didn't Kuja whip on Beatrix towards the end of the game? Zidane could take on Kuja at the very end of the game, so shouldn't he be stronger than Beatrix at the end?

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by linkownsyousobs
Didn't Kuja whip on Beatrix towards the end of the game?

Where and when...? huh Refresh my memory.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No, you got it wrong. You are misunderstanding.



Of course not, but it doesn't show he's incredibly powerful like you said either. He's just: 'strong', but not experienced as Beatrix is/was, that's why he lost. You have to look at the character's background. Their experience is something VERY important, the plot says it, Beatrix is a more experienced warrior than Zidane. Zidane is a thief, Beatrix is the best warrior in the Kingdom. The plot itself makes a difference between them.

I'm having trouble seeing your point. I know Beatrix is stronger than Zidane, how does this relate to Cloud?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Yes, she did break the spell, but you are overrating Zorn and Thorn now. They weren't anything special, at all. They said 'irrevocable', but it doesn't matter what they says (Beatrix said: 'I don't know if I can'), it matters to know that Beatrix is stronger than both of them, that's why she's the general. It could have been impressive if Vivi could have broken the spell. She specializes in both, combat and Magic.

She doesn't specialize in magic alone, like they do. They're one thing is magic. And why don't you think they're powerful? They were the ones performing the magic on Garnet to harvest the summons, if I'm not mistaken. They placed that spell on Garnet too. They seem pretty powerful to me, at least enough to be right hand to the Queen, so that's saying something. And Beatrix tops them, and doesn't even solely specialize in magic, as they do. So that's REALLY saying something.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
He's above human abilities? In what sense? Because Beatrix shows the opposite, you know. If that were absolutely true (Which I doubt it NOW) then, it wouldn't make sense, seeing Zidane laying in a floor almost losing consciousness after been defeated by a human. I mean... Hey, Zidane isn't like the Superman in the Final Fantasy IX Universe, that's a joke.

Just because someone is super human doesn't mean it's IMPOSSIBLE to be defeated by a human. Wasn't that one of your original top arguments in the Cloud vs Squall debate?

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
I'm having trouble seeing your point. I know Beatrix is stronger than Zidane, how does this relate to Cloud?

Cloud is not related. I'm talking about Zidane. I don't know... You said Zidane was super-powerful and all of that if I am not mistaken.

Originally posted by TacDavey
She doesn't specialize in magic alone, like they do. They're one thing is magic. And why don't you think they're powerful? They were the ones performing the magic on Garnet to harvest the summons, if I'm not mistaken. They placed that spell on Garnet too. They seem pretty powerful to me, at least enough to be right hand to the Queen, so that's saying something. And Beatrix tops them, and doesn't even solely specialize in magic, as they do. So that's REALLY saying something.

So? Vivi specializes solely in Magic still was defeated by Beatrix. Really? I could say Garnet is even more powerful than both of them because she has the ability Summon those powerful Eidolons. Yes, they are strong mages, that's all, at least to me, I respect your opinion though. The Queen is some fat lady, I wouldn't say they are powerful due of that they serves her. Beatrix is the most powerful warrior in the whole kingdom. At least THAT says something.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Just because someone is super human doesn't mean it's IMPOSSIBLE to be defeated by a human. Wasn't that one of your original top arguments in the Cloud vs Squall debate?

Huh? From where you brought that up? I never said that in my life.
What kind of argument is that? Squall is enhanced by GFs, he has got above-human capabilities by the way.

Aside from that, you say a human can defeat a super-human, then?

linkownsyousobs
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Where and when...? huh Refresh my memory.

idk, i ont remember too much about it. I haven't played 9 in like 4 or 5 years. I think it was around the time when she joins your side, instead of the queen's an kuja's.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Cloud is not related. I'm talking about Zidane. I don't know... You said Zidane was super-powerful and all of that if I am not mistaken.

Well, yeah. I'd say Zidane is powerful, but I never used Beatrix to show this.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
So? Vivi specializes solely in Magic still was defeated by Beatrix. Really? I could say Garnet is even more powerful than both of them because she has the ability Summon those powerful Eidolons. Yes, they are strong mages, that's all, at least to me, I respect your opinion though. The Queen is some fat lady, I wouldn't say they are powerful due of that they serves her. Beatrix is the most powerful warrior in the whole kingdom. At least THAT says something.

That's not the point. Beatrix showed that her MAGIC abilities were above that of the twins, not just her overall strength. She is more powerful in magic than someone who specializes in that art, and it's not even her specialty.

For example. Take someone who is really good at Piano. They spend their time playing piano and learning it. That is their instrument, and they've worked very hard at that instrument. Then there is someone who only plays piano on the side. They play a few instruments, they don't specialize in just the piano. Never the less, they are better at the piano than the person who solely specializes in it.

Beatrix is like that person. She's better than magic users even though she only does magic on the side. She doesn't solely specialize in it.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Huh? From where you brought that up? I never said that in my life.
What kind of argument is that? Squall is enhanced by GFs, he has got above-human capabilities by the way.

Aside from that, you say a human can defeat a super-human, then?

Oh, don't try denying it. Back in the early days on Youtube... wait. Maybe that was 17xjf, or whatever. Ah, I may have mixed you two up.

Well, me and 17 had this talk before on Youtube. Yes, being super human does not grantee you a victory over a normal human. Especially in a world with magic, where you can technically be a human, yet still be very powerful. It helps, obviously, and by default they would be. But it's still possible for a human to beat a super human.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
Well, yeah. I'd say Zidane is powerful, but I never used Beatrix to show this.

Okay... Uh, let me see. You are saying that Zidane is powerful just because Garland said: "Yes, my angel of death. But only until you came of age."? I don't know what you got from these words but... That does not mean Zidane is superior to the human race, at all. That's why I'm using Beatrix. Beatrix could have killed Zidane if she would have wanted. Plus, Garland created another Genome in order to replace Zidane, because he refused to accept his fate. I don't know if you will remember, but her name was Mikoto.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That's not the point. Beatrix showed that her MAGIC abilities were above that of the twins, not just her overall strength. She is more powerful in magic than someone who specializes in that art, and it's not even her specialty.

For example. Take someone who is really good at Piano. They spend their time playing piano and learning it. That is their instrument, and they've worked very hard at that instrument. Then there is someone who only plays piano on the side. They play a few instruments, they don't specialize in just the piano. Never the less, they are better at the piano than the person who solely specializes in it.

Beatrix is like that person. She's better than magic users even though she only does magic on the side. She doesn't solely specialize in it.

Don't worry, I already got your point.
Yes, that's why I gave you Vivi as an example, Beatrix also defeated him without specializing solely in Magic. Remember that her attacks are directly related to White Magic, like a Paladin. But I also understand what you're trying to say here. You are saying that because Beatrix broke the spell, her Magic is more powerful than of the twins, am I right?

I have to agree that, her, breaking the spell, was a good show of her abilities, indeed, that was really impressive.

I also got your analogy. But, Beatrix could have trained and mastered both arts as equal, not because they specializes solely in Magic means their Magic power would be always superior, it means they had more spells at their disposal, also more magical skills. They were the ones the Queen ordered to extract the Eidolons from Garnet's body, Beatrix couldn't have done that because she doesn't have that power. That was something unique from them, something that only them could perform, (as when they tried doing it with Eiko). And Just because Beatrix fights with a sword does not mean she can't be good at Magic. Beatrix is the general of the kingdom, that is saying something.

Well... I think we agree after all... Right? confused
Although I disgree that she's better that any Magic user just because she broke a spell.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Oh, don't try denying it. Back in the early days on Youtube... wait. Maybe that was 17xjf, or whatever. Ah, I may have mixed you two up.

Well, me and 17 had this talk before on Youtube. Yes, being super human does not grantee you a victory over a normal human. Especially in a world with magic, where you can technically be a human, yet still be very powerful. It helps, obviously, and by default they would be. But it's still possible for a human to beat a super human..

Yes, you are indeed confused. I never said something like that.

Well, it's not a bad argument, but if a super-human fights a normal human, obviously that the super-human would have the advantage from the beginning, you know. Okay, let's say it's possible. But not likely. But we're off topic now, what do you mean by this?

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Okay... Uh, let me see. You are saying that Zidane is powerful just because Garland said: "Yes, my angel of death. But only until you came of age."? I don't know what you got from these words but... That does not mean Zidane is superior to the human race, at all. That's why I'm using Beatrix. Beatrix could have killed Zidane if she would have wanted. Plus, Garland created another Genome in order to replace Zidane, because he refused to accept his fate. I don't know if you will remember, but her name was Mikoto.

No, I got it from when Garland told Zidane he was created for the sole purpose of killing people. That, and the fact that he was originally designed to be more powerful, even, than Kuja, who is obviously a super human. Thus, Zidane is a super human, even if he isn't using all of his power.



Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Don't worry, I already got your point.
Yes, that's why I gave you Vivi as an example, Beatrix also defeated him without specializing solely in Magic. Remember that her attacks are directly related to White Magic, like a Paladin. But I also understand what you're trying to say here. You are saying that because Beatrix broke the spell, her Magic is more powerful than of the twins, am I right?

I have to agree that, her, breaking the spell, was a good show of her abilities, indeed, that was really impressive.

I also got your analogy. But, Beatrix could have trained and mastered both arts as equal, not because they specializes solely in Magic means their Magic power would be always superior, it means they had more spells at their disposal, also more magical skills. They were the ones the Queen ordered to extract the Eidolons from Garnet's body, Beatrix couldn't have done that because she doesn't have that power. That was something unique from them, something that only them could perform, (as when they tried doing it with Eiko). And Just because Beatrix fights with a sword does not mean she can't be good at Magic. Beatrix is the general of the kingdom, that is saying something.

Well... I think we agree after all... Right? confused
Although I disgree that she's better that any Magic user just because she broke a spell.

No, not better than ANY mage. But as far as mages go, the twins aren't pushovers. It certainly gives her a pretty high rank in terms of magic users.


Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Yes, you are indeed confused. I never said something like that.

Well, it's not a bad argument, but if a super-human fights a normal human, obviously that the super-human would have the advantage from the beginning, you know. Okay, let's say it's possible. But not likely. But we're off topic now, what do you mean by this?

I mean that humans can beat super humans. So Beatrix defeating Zidane doesn't show him to not be super human. In order to be super human, you don't have to be able to literally defeat every human.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
No, I got it from when Garland told Zidane he was created for the sole purpose of killing people. That, and the fact that he was originally designed to be more powerful, even, than Kuja, who is obviously a super human. Thus, Zidane is a super human, even if he isn't using all of his power.

Killing people? Being an assassin doesn't makes you super-human. Do you know at least what are Garland's plans? I mean, what was Garland's plan? No, Zidane has never surpassed Kuja, not even in his regular form. Kuja specializes in Magic as I can see, Zidane's abilities are different. Garland created Mikoto to replace Zidane. He refused to accept his fate and Garland proceeded in removing his soul leaving him in the Pandemonium. You can see it in the third disc. You are constantly talking about 'power' here, but power alone means nothing anyway.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, not better than ANY mage. But as far as mages go, the twins aren't pushovers. It certainly gives her a pretty high rank in terms of magic users.

The twins aren't push-overs, but they aren't so powerful either. Black Mages are more powerful. She uses White Magic combined with sword attacks like I said. Vivi's Magic are more powerful.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I mean that humans can beat super humans. So Beatrix defeating Zidane doesn't show him to not be super human. In order to be super human, you don't have to be able to literally defeat every human.

But Zidane isn't super-human because he isn't a human. The right term should be Genome or humanoid. Dunno, I don't think Zidane is that powerful as you want to make it sound.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Killing people? Being an assassin doesn't makes you super-human. Do you know at least what are Garland's plans? I mean, what was Garland's plan? No, Zidane has never surpassed Kuja, not even in his regular form. Kuja specializes in Magic as I can see, Zidane's abilities are different. Garland created Mikoto to replace Zidane. He refused to accept his fate and Garland proceeded in removing his soul leaving him in the Pandemonium. You can see it in the third disc. You are constantly talking about 'power' here, but power alone means nothing anyway.

What does any of that matter? Who cares that Zidane didn't accept his fate and Mikoto was going to replace him? That is all irrelevant information. The point was, Zidane is genetically created to cause destruction. That was his purpose.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
The twins aren't push-overs, but they aren't so powerful either. Black Mages are more powerful. She uses White Magic combined with sword attacks like I said. Vivi's Magic are more powerful.

I don't know about that. Vivi didn't break the spell, Beatrix did.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
But Zidane isn't super-human because he isn't a human. The right term should be Genome or humanoid. Dunno, I don't think Zidane is that powerful as you want to make it sound.

Now you're just arguing semantics. By super human, I mean above human potential. Forget the fact that he isn't technically a human. It's just a term.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
What does any of that matter? Who cares that Zidane didn't accept his fate and Mikoto was going to replace him? That is all irrelevant information. The point was, Zidane is genetically created to cause destruction. That was his purpose.

How can you call all of that irrelevant when is part of the plot?
Garland decided that Zidane wouldn't be the Angel of Death and removed his soul.
Where it says he is 'genetically created' to cause destruction?
And exactly, that WAS his mission.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I don't know about that. Vivi didn't break the spell, Beatrix did.

What I meant, is that Vivi's spells are more powerful. Vivi was made to cause destruction. I didn't said Vivi is stronger than Beatrix because is obvious that she's stronger.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Now you're just arguing semantics. By super human, I mean above human potential. Forget the fact that he isn't technically a human. It's just a term.

No. Of course, I already know that. Yes, a term, not the right one though. But Garland didn't said the Genomes were absolutely superior to the human race. I don't remember that. It's like saying that Vivi is superior to the human race in Final Fantasy. Just no.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
How can you call all of that irrelevant when is part of the plot?
Garland decided that Zidane wouldn't be the Angel of Death and removed his soul.
Where it says he is 'genetically created' to cause destruction?
And exactly, that WAS his mission.

It's plot, sure, but it does not have any relevance to what we are talking about right now. Zidane's original purpose was to replace Kuja. He was made stronger than Kuja, and since Kuja is obviously a super human, it logically follows that Zidane is as well. He was created to be a powerful killing machine, like Kuja.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No. Of course, I already know that. Yes, a term, not the right one though. But Garland didn't said the Genomes were absolutely superior to the human race. I don't remember that. It's like saying that Vivi is superior to the human race in Final Fantasy. Just no.

Not all genomes are superior, Zidane is special. Zidane isn't like the other Genomes, he was created as a tool of war, basically. He was suppose to be doing basically what Kuja was doing. Blowing stuff up and causing chaos.

Pyron_Knight
Vivi is superior to most people in FF9 and so are the other Black Mages. Why else were the Black Mages feared? Why else did we specifically get to see a cutscene of Lindblum's gathered forces fleeing like bitches before an army of BMs?

Black Mages > FFIX humans on average. Someone like Beatrix obviously > them but just as a general rule, the Black Mages were definitely better than regular people in FF9.

Better than Burmecians too as we get to see burmeciains vaporized by Black mage fire spells in Cleyra.

And by the end of the game, Zidane is obviously stronger than Beatrix so who cares what she did way the heck bac on Disk 1 and 2?

TacDavey
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Vivi is superior to most people in FF9 and so are the other Black Mages. Why else were the Black Mages feared? Why else did we specifically get to see a cutscene of Lindblum's gathered forces fleeing like bitches before an army of BMs?

Black Mages > FFIX humans on average. Someone like Beatrix obviously > them but just as a general rule, the Black Mages were definitely better than regular people in FF9.

Better than Burmecians too as we get to see burmeciains vaporized by Black mage fire spells in Cleyra.

And by the end of the game, Zidane is obviously stronger than Beatrix so who cares what she did way the heck bac on Disk 1 and 2?

Are you sure? I don't think Zidane ever got stronger than Beatrix, at least not that they showed.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
It's plot, sure, but it does not have any relevance to what we are talking about right now. Zidane's original purpose was to replace Kuja. He was made stronger than Kuja, and since Kuja is obviously a super human, it logically follows that Zidane is as well. He was created to be a powerful killing machine, like Kuja.

Umm, actually, it does have relevance, that's why I'm mentioning it. Correct me if I'm wrong, (Maybe my memory is failing) but where it says Zidane was made 'stronger'? As far as I know, Kuja had mortality, meaning that his life was temporary, while Zidane is not. Like I said, being an assassin does not makes you super-human nor superior to human race. Plus, powerful killing machine? You are indeed overrating Zidane.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Not all genomes are superior, Zidane is special. Zidane isn't like the other Genomes, he was created as a tool of war, basically. He was suppose to be doing basically what Kuja was doing. Blowing stuff up and causing chaos.

Exactly, Zidane have a soul (Which made him superior to other Genomes). I mean, he HAD a soul, unlike the regular Genomes whose are just vessels and aren't powerful or anything. Kuja hasn't blown anything, all the destruction he caused was mostly with the help of the Black Mages, the Queen, the Invincible and Garnet's Eidolons. All of what you say WAS Garland's plans by the way. In Gaia there are humans and warriors that can stop those 'supposed superior-to-human-race' Genomes, Beatrix is the example. Freya, Amarant, Steiner all of them are warriors from Gaia, and they are strong. The Black Mages are tool of war.

Pyron_Knight
Originally posted by TacDavey
Are you sure? I don't think Zidane ever got stronger than Beatrix, at least not that they showed.

Well it's a very roundabout thing but yes, I do think he got stronger than her or was at least her equal.

Kuja: You two just don't get it! I need an eidolon more powerful than Alexander! An eidolon with the power to bury Garland! His powers are so incredible; I cannot even come close.

Garland >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kuja.

The same Kuja who smiled off a direct attack from one of the strongest summons around in Bahamut.
A summon who we saw not only efforlessly one-shotting warships but who is most likely stronger than Odin and Odin can drop attacks that are about as strong as the original Atomic Bombs. (I've had people calc this by scaling the size of the attack he used on Cleyra)

Now the party, not just Zidane, was able to bring down both Garland and Kuja. However, we know that Garland is significantly stronger than Kuja and by all evidence, Kuja is more powerful than Beatrix. I just find it highly unlikely that Zidane would be weaker than someone who is weaker than someone else who is massively weaker than the person he helps defeat.

I hope I'm not going too far out on a limb here; I think it's resonable enough.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Well it's a very roundabout thing but yes, I do think he got stronger than her or was at least her equal.

Kuja: You two just don't get it! I need an eidolon more powerful than Alexander! An eidolon with the power to bury Garland! His powers are so incredible; I cannot even come close.

Garland >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kuja.

The same Kuja who smiled off a direct attack from one of the strongest summons around in Bahamut.
A summon who we saw not only efforlessly one-shotting warships but who is most likely stronger than Odin and Odin can drop attacks that are about as strong as the original Atomic Bombs. (I've had people calc this by scaling the size of the attack he used on Cleyra)

Now the party, not just Zidane, was able to bring down both Garland and Kuja. However, we know that Garland is significantly stronger than Kuja and by all evidence, Kuja is more powerful than Beatrix. I just find it highly unlikely that Zidane would be weaker than someone who is weaker than someone else who is massively weaker than the person he helps defeat.

I hope I'm not going too far out on a limb here; I think it's resonable enough.

That isn't saying much. Zidane lost his soul, making him like the rest of the Genomes, an empty vessel.

Garland to Zidane (after refusing his fate):

"Regrettable... I thought your soul would be perfect for a new angel of death..."

"Foolishness..."

"The body becomes a vessel, which greets a new soul..."

He isn't even equal to Kuja in power. Never was. He said it by himself:

Zidane to Garland: "You mean you won't need Kuja's soul once I grow stronger than him?"

Zidane defeated Kuja and Garland with the help of seven people.
I don't think that is reason enough to think Zidane got stronger than Beatrix, who defeated him and his party several times.
And Kuja being stronger than Beatrix is something we can't tell. Only Trance Kuja is stronger.

Pyron_Knight
Prove he lost his soul. Garland tried to remove it but there's absolutely no evidence he succeeded.



Garland: I built you to last only until the worthy Genome, Zidane, grew.
There's a limit on your life... You'll be dead soon...

Zidane was near his maturity at which point he would surpass Kuja. Which is when Kuja would die soon.



Nope, he's stronger. By a good bit.

5VGYTT5J8Js

Beatrix is pathetic compared to the power the eidolons displayed.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Prove he lost his soul. Garland tried to remove it but there's absolutely no evidence he succeeded.

What the hell are you talking about? Garland created Zidane, he didn't tried to remove his soul, he removed his soul and left him in the Pandemonium, I don't need to prove anything. Play Final Fantasy IX.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Garland: I built you to last only until the worthy Genome, Zidane, grew.
There's a limit on your life... You'll be dead soon...

Zidane was near his maturity at which point he would surpass Kuja. Which is when Kuja would die soon..

Indeed. But that never happened.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Nope, he's stronger. By a good bit.

Beatrix is pathetic compared to the power the eidelons displayed.

I don't know, Kuja never fought Beatrix by himself.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Umm, actually, it does have relevance, that's why I'm mentioning it. Correct me if I'm wrong, (Maybe my memory is failing) but where it says Zidane was made 'stronger'? As far as I know, Kuja had mortality, meaning that his life was temporary, while Zidane is not. Like I said, being an assassin does not makes you super-human nor superior to human race. Plus, powerful killing machine? You are indeed overrating Zidane.

Garland specifically says "Kuja couldn't stand seeing a Genome MORE POWERFUL THAN HIMSELF."

He did NOT say "Kuja couldn't stand seeing a genome WITH A SOUL AND LIFESPAN."

Besides, when Kuja ditched Zidane for being more powerful, he didn't even know he had a set lifespan at that point. He only found out in the events of FF9.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Exactly, Zidane have a soul (Which made him superior to other Genomes). I mean, he HAD a soul, unlike the regular Genomes whose are just vessels and aren't powerful or anything. Kuja hasn't blown anything, all the destruction he caused was mostly with the help of the Black Mages, the Queen, the Invincible and Garnet's Eidolons. All of what you say WAS Garland's plans by the way. In Gaia there are humans and warriors that can stop those 'supposed superior-to-human-race' Genomes, Beatrix is the example. Freya, Amarant, Steiner all of them are warriors from Gaia, and they are strong. The Black Mages are tool of war.

Kuja shrugs off a blast from Bahamut like it was nothing. Zidane wasn't more powerful than the other genomes because he had a soul. He was more powerful because Garland made him to be more powerful. I'll say it again. When Graland was creating Zidane, he was creating a being the would be more powerful than Kuja, who is a powerful killing machine, and would replace him.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What the hell are you talking about? Garland created Zidane, he didn't tried to remove his soul, he removed his soul and left him in the Pandemonium, I don't need to prove anything. Play Final Fantasy IX.

That's debatable. Garland says he was going to remove Zidane's soul but this was never confirmed. He starts out like an "empty vessel" but that doesn't last long, and he ultimately snaps out of it. Had he no soul, like the other Genomes, he should be like them. An emotionless robot, basically. But he isn't. Leading me to believe he never lost it, or was about to but was able to regain it.

Pyron_Knight
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What the hell are you talking about? Garland created Zidane, he didn't tried to remove his soul, he removed his soul and left him in the Pandemonium, I don't need to prove anything. Play Final Fantasy IX.

I did.

There's absolutely zero proof Garland succeeded in removing Zidane's soul.

So prove up or shut up.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
Garland specifically says "Kuja couldn't stand seeing a Genome MORE POWERFUL THAN HIMSELF."

He did NOT say "Kuja couldn't stand seeing a genome WITH A SOUL AND LIFESPAN."

Besides, when Kuja ditched Zidane for being more powerful, he didn't even know he had a set lifespan at that point. He only found out in the events of FF9.

You don't understand. Zidane isn't the only one with a soul, Kuja also have a soul, and Mikoto. Zidane clearly states by himself that he isn't more powerful than Kuja, and by seeing all the events in the whole game, I assume he isn't equal either. At least it wasn't yet at that point.

"You mean you won't need Kuja's soul once I grow stronger than him?"

Besides, that's nothing special, the Angel of Death is just to bring wars to Gaia, it's not like Kuja was blowing up cities and continents with his powers.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Kuja shrugs off a blast from Bahamut like it was nothing. Zidane wasn't more powerful than the other genomes because he had a soul. He was more powerful because Garland made him to be more powerful. I'll say it again. When Graland was creating Zidane, he was creating a being the would be more powerful than Kuja, who is a powerful killing machine, and would replace him.

Zidane was superior to the other Genomes precisely because he had a soul, Garland created him with a soul. Garland didn't created him to be more powerful without any reason, he created him to be the new Angel of Death. And I'll say it again, that never happened, I don't know why are you having problems in understanding this.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That's debatable. Garland says he was going to remove Zidane's soul but this was never confirmed. He starts out like an "empty vessel" but that doesn't last long, and he ultimately snaps out of it. Had he no soul, like the other Genomes, he should be like them. An emotionless robot, basically. But he isn't. Leading me to believe he never lost it, or was about to but was able to regain it.

It is the debatable if you try to ignore facts, obviously.

Garland
"He's too good to make into a regular Genome..."
"But I have no choice."

Then Zidane wakes up in the Pandemonium with his mind all messed up for some reason. But Zidane developed feelings, just look at his speech with Garland, he refused to accept his fate, the plot makes this very clear, just look at Vivi, he should be a robot like the others too, but he isn't. Besides, Zidane is still stronger than those other Genomes, but he's just a regular one without a soul. Garland removed his soul. Zidane wasn't going to be the Angel of Death, Garland states this very clearly. And nope, sorry, he can't 'regain' anyhing, you're making things up.

Originally posted by Pyron
There's absolutely zero proof Garland succeeded in removing Zidane's soul.

Garland is the one who created Zidane, why he wouldn't 'succeed' ? Zidane is more powerful than Garland or something to be able to retaliate?

I don't have to prove anything by the way, you have to prove that Kuja is stronger than Beatrix which by the way is what you claimed, mate.

Pyron_Knight
First off, not all the Black Mages are robots. A good deal of them become sentient and feeling creatures. Vivi is not unique in any way except he lives longer because he was a prototype.

Second, there is no proof Garland succeeded in removing Zidane's soul. It was his intent but you have no proof he succeeded. Zidane is the same as ever after he awakens.

Third, I already proved Kuja was stronger. Beatrix never showed anywhere near the durability to stand up to an attack from one of the strongest summons in FFIX. Summons in FFIX are all casual cityblock destroying monsters and Beatrix sadly never showed she could take such damage.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
First off, not all the Black Mages are robots. A good deal of them become sentient and feeling creatures. Vivi is not unique in any way except he lives longer because he was a prototype.

Like the Genomes, just look at Zidane or Mikoto.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
there is no proof Garland succeeded in removing Zidane's soul.

Garland is the one who created Zidane, why he wouldn't 'succeed' ? Zidane is more powerful than Garland or something to be able to retaliate? Zidane does retaliate? What makes you think that?

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
It was his intent

And it did.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
you have no proof he succeeded.

Except Zidane isn't the Angel of Deah anymore, that is saying something.

And again:
Garland is the one who created Zidane, why he wouldn't 'succeed' ?

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Zidane is the same as ever after he awakens.

Are you sure...? shifty He does not look so good after he awakens.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
I already proved Kuja was stronger.

When...?

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Beatrix never showed anywhere near the durability to stand up to an attack from one of the strongest summons in FFIX.

Kuja never showed skills to be able to beat Zidane and his party... no expression

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Summons in FFIX are all casual cityblock destroying monsters and Beatrix sadly never showed she could take such damage.

But this is Summons Vs. Beatrix, then? Lol.

Pyron_Knight
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Like the Genomes, just look at Zidane or Mikoto.

Both of whom have souls.



Because he's not perfect.



Don't put words in my mouth. It's rude.

Also, can you tell me how Garland removes souls? No? Then how can you prove he succeeded in removing Zidane's? He just left Zidane alone after he said that and he wasn't the least bit surprised when Zidane arrived the same as ever later on.




Except the Angel of Death si just a title. It has no physical meaning beyond the fact you're stronger than other Genomes.



Because Zidane's friendship and willpower was stronger.



Looks fine to me. A little messed up but he's good as new after some peptalks so it wasn't anything serious.



I've already explained this to you.

Kuja > eidolons.
Eidolons > Beatrix.
Kuja > Eidolons > Beatrix.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You don't understand. Zidane isn't the only one with a soul, Kuja also have a soul, and Mikoto. Zidane clearly states by himself that he isn't more powerful than Kuja, and by seeing all the events in the whole game, I assume he isn't equal either. At least it wasn't yet at that point.

"You mean you won't need Kuja's soul once I grow stronger than him?"

Besides, that's nothing special, the Angel of Death is just to bring wars to Gaia, it's not like Kuja was blowing up cities and continents with his powers.

But he was MADE to be. I've already admitted Zidane isn't more powerful than Kuja, but that's because Kuja screwed it up when Zidane was a baby, or something. He was still designed to be more powerful than Kuja. The simple fact that he didn't realize the full extent of his powers, or the fact that Kuja also has a soul, or the fact that Garland didn't want to make him the angel of death will never change that.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Zidane was superior to the other Genomes precisely because he had a soul, Garland created him with a soul. Garland didn't created him to be more powerful without any reason, he created him to be the new Angel of Death. And I'll say it again, that never happened, I don't know why are you having problems in understanding this.

So? Zidane was suppose to become the Angel of Death. It's a title, dude. Zidane doesn't get special powers for having it, nor does he loose any power when he looses the title. It's just words.

Garland made him to be better than Kuja. The game uses the words MORE POWERFUL. This does not mean "have a soul" to me. Does it to you?


Originally posted by GrieverSquall
It is the debatable if you try to ignore facts, obviously.

Garland
"He's too good to make into a regular Genome..."
"But I have no choice."

Then Zidane wakes up in the Pandemonium with his mind all messed up for some reason. But Zidane developed feelings, just look at his speech with Garland, he refused to accept his fate, the plot makes this very clear, just look at Vivi, he should be a robot like the others too, but he isn't. Besides, Zidane is still stronger than those other Genomes, but he's just a regular one without a soul. Garland removed his soul. Zidane wasn't going to be the Angel of Death, Garland states this very clearly. And nope, sorry, he can't 'regain' anyhing, you're making things up.

The only thing that quote shows is that Garland was GOING to remove his soul. Not that he ever did. If he did, Zidane should be like the other Genomes. What is the point of removing the soul if NOTHING about the genome changes? Zidane was fine a little while after he woke up.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Garland is the one who created Zidane, why he wouldn't 'succeed' ? Zidane is more powerful than Garland or something to be able to retaliate?

Maybe. Maybe Garland simply hadn't done it yet when the rest of the team busted him out. Maybe since they were there, he was able to snap out of it.

All we know is that, while Garland SAID he was going to do it, we never actually see him do it. On top of that. Zidane doesn't suffer any ill effects whatsoever. While we don't know the exact details, it seems Zidane never lost his soul.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
But he was MADE to be. I've already admitted Zidane isn't more powerful than Kuja, but that's because Kuja screwed it up when Zidane was a baby, or something. He was still designed to be more powerful than Kuja. The simple fact that he didn't realize the full extent of his powers, or the fact that Kuja also has a soul, or the fact that Garland didn't want to make him the angel of death will never change that.

Kuja felt threatened, it's not like he saw Zidane's powers or anything. He knew Zidane was going to be immortal while Kuja had mortality.

Originally posted by TacDavey
So? Zidane was suppose to become the Angel of Death. It's a title, dude. Zidane doesn't get special powers for having it, nor does he loose any power when he looses the title. It's just words.

Garland made him to be better than Kuja. The game uses the words MORE POWERFUL. This does not mean "have a soul" to me. Does it to you?

Except he does, that's why the Angel of Death is different from regular Genomes and is clearly superior, if not, ask Kuja why he's stronger than regular Genomes. Also, don't you read the quotes I have posted? That's from the game, I'm not making up things.

He says more powerful, but he doesn't says at what extent nor in what sense. It can be more powerful in the sense he was about to be immortal and permanently getting stronger and stronger, unlike Kuja who had mortality and his life was ending.

Originally posted by TacDavey
The only thing that quote shows is that Garland was GOING to remove his soul. Not that he ever did. If he did, Zidane should be like the other Genomes. What is the point of removing the soul if NOTHING about the genome changes? Zidane was fine a little while after he woke up.

That's because Zidane is different, I'll post more quotes to prove what I'm saying, it seems you are being stubborn about it or you don't pay attention to the plot. It's not something I'm speculating, it's the plot.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Maybe. Maybe Garland simply hadn't done it yet when the rest of the team busted him out. Maybe since they were there, he was able to snap out of it.

All we know is that, while Garland SAID he was going to do it, we never actually see him do it. On top of that. Zidane doesn't suffer any ill effects whatsoever. While we don't know the exact details, it seems Zidane never lost his soul.

But you don't have evidence to prove that, you're now speculating, I'm not speculating. I don't need to do it either.

Garland didn't said he was about to do it, he DID. You don't need to see him doing to know he did, Tac. Ill effects? And from where you drawn the conclusion that he must feel ill effects? You perfectly know what happens to Zidane when he's in the Pandemonium. Zidane became an empty vessel = Without a soul.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Both of whom have souls.

She states that both of them are vessels though. But that Zidane have an important purpose.

Zidane
"R-Restore the people of Terra? You mean people besides these guys here?"

Girl (Mikoto)
"They are merely vessels. So am I, and so are you."
"But the true people of Terra have been asleep for ages, waiting for their time to come."
"When the time is right, the light of this planet will change from blue to red, and Gaia will become Terra."

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Because he's not perfect.

Huh? Who is not perfect? huh

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Don't put words in my mouth. It's rude.

I didn't... no expression

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Also, can you tell me how Garland removes souls? No? Then how can you prove he succeeded in removing Zidane's?

Nonsense. And can you tell me how Garland insert souls to the Genomes? No?
Im proving it, actually. I'm putting evidence of his own words, which you seem to ignore as I can see. And again, he is Zidane's creator, he doesn't need to 'succeed' in anything.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
He just left Zidane alone after he said that and he wasn't the least bit surprised when Zidane arrived the same as ever later on.

He just left Zidane alone...? What the f**k?
You are clearly making things up.

Zidane
"I wouldn't want that kind of power... if I only had a place to call home..."
"My brothers in Tantalus, Vivi, Freya, Amarant, Quina, Steiner, Eiko, and...Dagger..."
"My home is with them in Gaia!"
"If you say I have a motive, then it's to punish all of you who brought pain to my friends!"
"I'll destroy Terra! That's reason enough for my birth here as a Genome!"

Garland
"Regrettable... I thought your soul would be perfect for a new angel of death..."

Zidane
"I AM the new angel of death! Yours!!!"

Garland
"Don't you know what it means to meet your maker?"

Zidane
"Shut up! I've heard enough of your crap! I'm taking you out, right here, right now!"

Garland
"Foolishness..."

"The body becomes a vessel, which greets a new soul..."

Zidane
"What's happening!?"



Garland
"He's too good to make into a regular Genome..."
"But I have no choice."

He had no coice, he did removed his soul. This clearly proves it. Even the script seems to agree. Also go to Wikipedia and look by yourself in Zidane's page, this is a part of it:

Drained by this new revelation, Zidane attempts to fight Garland, only to have his Terran soul removed and his body chained in Pandemonium's depths. With anguish, he fell into the belief that everything he knew was a lie and his true purpose in life was to aid in Gaia's destruction. When his friends come to his aid, Zidane shuns them, not wanting to draw their lives into Garland's genocidal plot.

If you also disagree, then go to argue with them. You are claiming and suggesting random things without any kind of evidence whasoever. You have nothing to prove your own words and anything to backing them up. If you are unable to understand the plot, then you're hopeless. Tell me, what do you have to back your words? Are you going to disagree with this? Because this is from the own game. Plus, prove your own words, bring something to the tabe instead of denying the plot and making stupid assumptions.
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Except the Angel of Death si just a title. It has no physical meaning beyond the fact you're stronger than other Genomes.

Not really. The Angel of Death is the one that causes wars, sends the souls to the Lifa Tree and obviously superior to regular Genomes. Which by the way, Zidane isn't, never was and it would never be, that WAS in Garland's original plans. Zidane isn't equal to Kuja in power, that's very clear in the whole game.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Because Zidane's friendship and willpower was stronger.

Completely retarded, Irrelevant and made up argument.
I'll give you a chance though. Proof, evidence, logic, please. Thanks. thumb up

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Looks fine to me. A little messed up but he's good as new after some peptalks so it wasn't anything serious.

Except he wasn't fine and almost gets killed in the way.
Plus, look at Garland and Zidane's speech, Zidane isn't like the rest of the Genomes, he refused to accept his fate and to become the Angel of Death, he even says he would destroy Terra if he could instead of causing wars in Gaia. He developed feelings, he was raised in Gaia after all, he isn't like the rest of the Genomes. How come you are having problems in understanding the plot? I have all the evidence is in my side, I am not making things up like you're doing here.


"I... I am...an... empty...vessel..."

"Zidane!"

"Who?"

"Wake up, Zidane!"

"Who...?"

"Come on, Zidane, wake up!"

I hope you remember that scene.
He says he's an empty vessel by himself. Because he is, he lost his soul. Garland removed his soul. In those moments he was like a robot, but was able to regain his own self thanks to his friends, and the feelings he developed with them. But he lost is soul. You'll have to deal with it, it's part of the plot.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
I've already explained this to you.

facepalm

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Kuja > eidolons.

So Kuja is stronger than all the Eidolons? What makes you think that? He needed them for his plans. If you want to claim that Kuja is stronger than the Eidolons, then you must provide evidence and then use logic to support it, I doubt you can use logic though... erm

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Eidolons > Beatrix.

I never saw one beating Beatrix though.
I could say:

Beatrix > Zidane and party.
Zidane and party > Kuja
Beatrix > Kuja

Elaborate, that isn't an argument.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Kuja > Eidolons > Beatrix.

Read above. smile

Also, you support Cloud or Zidane here? confused1 Because you haven't posted anything relevant to the current topic at hand since your first post in this thread. You're like... Trolling or something. We're already on this Angel of Death topic with Tac, and as far as I can tell, you're not saying nor adding anything new. Just repeating what Tac already said and posting nonsense. Well... At least Tac knows how to debate properly, though. laughing

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Kuja felt threatened, it's not like he saw Zidane's powers or anything. He knew Zidane was going to be immortal while Kuja had mortality.

Kuja didn't know he had mortality at the time! He found that out in FF9. I believe he found it out after he killed Garland on that balcony in Terra.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Except he does, that's why the Angel of Death is different from regular Genomes and is clearly superior, if not, ask Kuja why he's stronger than regular Genomes. Also, don't you read the quotes I have posted? That's from the game, I'm not making up things.

Okay, you say the soul is what makes Zidane more powerful than the other Genomes? So why is he still more powerful after you claim he lost his soul? You say he lost his soul in Pandemonium. But he regained all his powers completely. So, if you want to claim he lost his soul, you have to also accept that his power is built in from somewhere other than the soul. Or, you could claim that his soul is what makes him more powerful, and accept that he didn't loose his soul in pandemonium. Which is it?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
He says more powerful, but he doesn't says at what extent nor in what sense. It can be more powerful in the sense he was about to be immortal and permanently getting stronger and stronger, unlike Kuja who had mortality and his life was ending.

That makes NO sense at all. If someone is going to live longer than me, I wouldn't describe them as being more powerful than me. That's just a stupid, confusing way to talk. It's far more rational that when he said power, he actually meant power.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That's because Zidane is different, I'll post more quotes to prove what I'm saying, it seems you are being stubborn about it or you don't pay attention to the plot. It's not something I'm speculating, it's the plot.

So Garland made him, but didn't know he would be fine without a soul? Or he knew taking his soul would do absolutely nothing, yet did so anyway for the fun of it? That doesn't make sense.

But please. By all means bring more quotes. I haven't played the game in some time, it's perfectly possible I am forgetting stuff. If you have quotes that prove your point, bring them.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
But you don't have evidence to prove that, you're now speculating, I'm not speculating. I don't need to do it either.

I'm not speculating. Garland wanted to turn him into those other Genomes. That was his goal. He wanted him to be a lifeless, mindless robot like the others. He said so himself in the quote you provided. "He's too good to turn into a regular Genome." So he wanted an "empty vessel" Zidane, but that's not what he got. He failed somewhere along the line because Zidane didn't become a "regular Genome" like Garland wanted. Garland failed.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Garland didn't said he was about to do it, he DID. You don't need to see him doing to know he did, Tac. Ill effects? And from where you drawn the conclusion that he must feel ill effects? You perfectly know what happens to Zidane when he's in the Pandemonium. Zidane became an empty vessel = Without a soul.

Did he? I'm not so sure. Zidane didn't turn into a lifeless, empty vessel like the others. So obviously something went wrong. Garland screwed something up.

GrieverSquall

TacDavey

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
Okay, then Zidane's power isn't based off his soul. So we are in agreement.

Zidane's full potential yes though. Yes, agreed.
He's still stronger than regular Genomes anyway. Either way, as far as I can tell, regular Genomes have no sings of being warriors nor anything of the sort.

Originally posted by TacDavey
But Kuja's powers showed no signs of weakening.

This is pointless. Zidane was suppose to be more powerful than Kuja, that's all that is really important here.

Kuja's powers showed no signs of weakening? Sorry, what do you mean? I don't get it. He's obviously stronger than Zidane.

I agree. He WAS about to be and to get stronger than Kuja, but he isn't, and he wasn't. Never. That never happened.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Sure he was. He was a little off at the beginning but after a few talks with his team he was just like he used to be. The other Genomes can't do that. The other Genomes can't develop emotions like that, so he wasn't like the others, was he? Garland tried to make him like the others but failed. So what does that mean? Zidane didn't loose his soul, recovered it, or was somehow able to not be an "empty vessel" even though he was. Those are our options, really.

Few talks? That's one of the most important parts of the whole story, Tac. Zidane was a robot there and regained his self due of his friends and friendship, the bond between them. Zidane isn't like the other Genomes, because he developed feelings, he was raised in Gaia, not in Terra like the rest of them, he was given an important purpose, Mikoto states it very clearly. Trance is evidence of his own emotions, a power that surges by the emotions, even Moogles can have access to Trance as Kuja stated. Zidane's Trance didn't came thanks to his Terrain soul, but from his own emotions he developed. Those are just a few reasons of why Zidane isn't like the others and he will never be like the others. Garland didn't tried, he did. Zidane's soul was removed, but again, read what I'm writting, Zidane is different from regular Genomes even if he lost his soul, the plot makes things very clear, actually.

Originally posted by TacDavey
We can't say for sure which one of those options it is, because we really don't know, but I think it's more rational to think it's one of the first two.

The other Genomes were mindless robots because they did not have souls. That's what you are like when you don't have one. There is no evidence that any of them can simply develop feelings, nor is there any evidence that Zidane's time with his soul would somehow allow him to retain feelings when lost.

In the end YOU are speculating as well. You are speculating that either Zidane was created with the ability to have feelings without a soul, or that Zidane's time with a soul somehow allowed him to retain feelings after he had lost it. But, as far as I know, neither one is ever backed up in the game.

The game never specifies what the real reason Zidane didn't become a lifeless being was. All we can do is speculate, and I think that of the three possibilities mentioned above, the first two are more likely.

None of them.

Zidane is different, read above.

Not really. All what I'm saying is in the plot, there's not speculation whatsoever from my part. It's okay if you are speculating, that also helps to understand. Read above.

Well, the Genomes aren't lifeless, you are now exaggerating. They may be not like humans or like the people of Gaia, but we can't say they are lifeless robots either. What I have mentioned above is more likely, because it's supported by the plot, not by mere speculations without any basis in fact.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I'm not trying to insinuate anything. Like I said, it has been some time since I have played the game, I don't remember every line that was ever spoken. If they DO prove your point in the dialog then I honestly want to know.

I posted several quotes above, just read the way I elaborated that argument.

Originally posted by TacDavey
You brought up when Garland said: "he's too good to make into a regular Genome, but I have no choice."

But that quote only specifies that Garland WILL turn him into one, not that he ever did. Besides, it was Garlands attempt to turn him into a regular Genome, but we all know Garland failed. The question is HOW did he fail. Did he fail in the fact that he didn't know that Zidane wouldn't turn into a regular one without his soul? I find that hard to believe since, as you have pointed out on numerous occasions, he made Zidane. He should know.

Or did he fail to ever fully remove the soul? I find this explanation more likely. The scene in Pandemonium looks like Zidane is in the process of becoming a lifeless being. It doesn't look like it has fully happened yet. He seems to be slowly wasting away as he goes through the images of his friends. It seems to be a gradual degradation. But Eiko and Vivi show up before he is fully lost, and through the rest of the scenes, and finally Dagger showing up, the overall process fails.

Yeah, and also other many quotes... Can you go back and read all of them? If it's necessary I'll post more. I even posted one from the Final Fantasy Wikipedia, Zidane's page...

What Zidane was suffering in the Pandemonium after that, isn't coincidence. He didn't even remembered his name. Garland removed his soul and left him in the Pandemonium. Garland's original plans have failed, the Angel of Death plan. Not him, in removing Zidane's soul. Again, read above, it seems in every quote you say the same... Also, if you admit that Garland created Zidane, then he couldn't have failed in removing his soul, that wouldn't make any sense. Zidane tried to fight him and he removed his soul as he stated. Simple as that.

False. Zidane wasn't in any process (See? That's speculation). He had his soul removed and was suffering the consequences. Garland wasn't there with him to know what was happening, so keep Garland outside of this. He didn't know about Zidane's friends, at all. 'I am an empty vessel...'

Originally posted by TacDavey
Read above.

thumb up

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Kuja's powers showed no signs of weakening? Sorry, what do you mean? I don't get it. He's obviously stronger than Zidane.

Only because he never gained his full power.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Few talks? That's one of the most important parts of the whole story, Tac. Zidane was a robot there and regained his self due of his friends and friendship, the bond between them. Zidane isn't like the other Genomes, because he developed feelings, he was raised in Gaia, not in Terra like the rest of them, he was given an important purpose, Mikoto states it very clearly.

Yeah. He was different than the other Genomes because he had a soul. Kuja, Zidane, and Mikoto are the only Genomes with souls and they are the only Genomes with emotion. The rest are just a bunch of mindless robots. No soul = no emotion.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Trance is evidence of his own emotions, a power that surges by the emotions, even Moogles can have access to Trance as Kuja stated. Zidane's Trance didn't came thanks to his Terrain soul, but from his own emotions he developed. Those are just a few reasons of why Zidane isn't like the others and he will never be like the others. Garland didn't tried, he did. Zidane's soul was removed, but again, read what I'm writting, Zidane is different from regular Genomes even if he lost his soul, the plot makes things very clear, actually.

I don't think it does. It is never specified that Zidane absolutely lost his soul. The only reason you think so, is that Garland said he would, and since Garland made him, it is likely he would be able to remove his soul.

But for this line of reasoning to work, you need to speculate that Zidane can have emotions without a soul. But this is never backed up by story. All the Genomes without souls are emotionless. Garland wanted Zidane to be emotionless, thus he concluded that he needed to remove Zidane's soul to accomplish this. We can see this by his quote, which you gave.

"He's too good to make into a regular Genome."

Notice Garlands goal here. He wants to make Zidane like all the other Genomes that you see walking around. A lifeless robot, basically. That's what he's trying to do. And he decided that the way to do this, was to remove Zidanes soul. That seems to suggest, that removing the soul takes away the emotions, and this is back up again, by looking at the Genomes that have souls, and the Genomes that don't. All the genomes that have souls, have emotions. And all the Genomes that don't, don't. Now, if Garland made Zidane to be able to possess emotions without a soul, then he should have KNOWN that removing the soul wouldn't give him the result he was looking for! The only logical explanation is that Garland was going to, or was in the process of removing the soul when Zidane's team showed up and stopped it.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Not really. All what I'm saying is in the plot, there's not speculation whatsoever from my part. It's okay if you are speculating, that also helps to understand. Read above.

No, there IS speculation on your part. As far as I know, at least. None of your quotes absolutely dictate that your stance is the correct one. Unless you have more quotes that you did not bring.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Well, the Genomes aren't lifeless, you are now exaggerating. They may be not like humans or like the people of Gaia, but we can't say they are lifeless robots either. What I have mentioned above is more likely, because it's supported by the plot, not by mere speculations without any basis in fact.

No, the Genomes ARE lifeless. Look at when they meet them in the game. They show no emotion whatsoever, and that's when the even respond. The party even comments about it.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Yeah, and also other many quotes... Can you go back and read all of them? If it's necessary I'll post more. I even posted one from the Final Fantasy Wikipedia, Zidane's page...

The FF Wiki isn't absolute. It is written by fans.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What Zidane was suffering in the Pandemonium after that, isn't coincidence. He didn't even remembered his name. Garland removed his soul and left him in the Pandemonium. Garland's original plans have failed, the Angel of Death plan. Not him, in removing Zidane's soul. Again, read above, it seems in every quote you say the same... Also, if you admit that Garland created Zidane, then he couldn't have failed in removing his soul, that wouldn't make any sense. Zidane tried to fight him and he removed his soul as he stated. Simple as that.

Garland WOULDN'T have failed in removing the soul if it wasn't for Zidane's team showing up. Since Garland made Zidane, then he should know if removing the soul will remove the emotions or not, right? But accourding to you, he DIDN'T know that. According to you, Garland simply screwed up. But that's not what I'm saying. Garland WAS removing the soul and WOULD have succeeded had Zidane's team not saved him.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
False. Zidane wasn't in any process (See? That's speculation). He had his soul removed and was suffering the consequences. Garland wasn't there with him to know what was happening, so keep Garland outside of this. He didn't know about Zidane's friends, at all. 'I am an empty vessel...'

The game never 100% tells us what happened or why Zidane regained feelings. Some speculation IS required.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
Only because he never gained his full power.

And never showed that kind of power either, Correct. Then you can't claim he's stronger than Kuja as you did in one of your first posts.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Yeah. He was different than the other Genomes because he had a soul. Kuja, Zidane, and Mikoto are the only Genomes with souls and they are the only Genomes with emotion. The rest are just a bunch of mindless robots. No soul = no emotion.

Do you really think Mikoto has emotions like Zidane or Kuja...? If she has, then I never noticed it or her emotions weren't so easily to tell. Look at this.

Black Mage No. 288
"Of course it is. So, this was Vivi's idea?"

Zidane
"Yeah..."
"He wanted the Genomes to start their new lives here."

Black Mage No. 288
"We're similar in many ways... Maybe we can understand them better, and they might open up to us."

Zidane
"Right... He also said..."
"If you guys can get along with the Genomes, maybe humans and black mages can live alongside each other someday..."

The Black Mage said they might open to them, meaning that they are not lifeless robots as you said, and they just need to find their emotions and reasons to live, just as Zidane did. Now look at this.

Zidane
"What are you still doing here!? We need to evacuate."

Girl
"What's the point? They're only empty vessels..."

Zidane
"Stop talking like that! Do you really believe what you just said!?"

Girl
"...Unlike the rest of them, Garland gave me a soul, that I might replace you and Kuja."
"But Garland is dead. Terra will soon be destroyed. What's the point?"

Zidane
"I asked myself the same question..."

Girl
"Did you find an answer?"

Zidane
"No... But maybe the point is to just try."
"It's gonna be hard... but I've got my friends. It isn't so bad."

Girl
"..."

Zidane
"Hey, what's your name?"

Girl
"Huh?"

Zidane
"Garland gave you a name, didn't he?"

Girl
"My name is...Mikoto."

Zidane
"Mikoto, huh? That's a nice name... A lot of people are gonna call you that from now on."
"You have to find the answer yourself. It'll be hard, but you can do it."
"Let's go to the new world, Mikoto! There, you can find your answer..."

Here, we can see when Mikoto states that Garland gave her a soul and that she was about to replace Zidane or Kuja, knowing that, we can easily tell that Zidane became also an empty vessel without a soul, but he have got friends. Also they states that Garland is now dead, so there's no point anymore, this back up what I was saying, the Angel of Death thing is gone, so we shouldn't bring that thing again, Tac. Zidane says that she have to find her answer from now on, but that it will be hard, he clearly speaks about friendship and the meaning of life. Something that he have learned. This also back up my other points.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I don't think it does. It is never specified that Zidane absolutely lost his soul. The only reason you think so, is that Garland said he would, and since Garland made him, it is likely he would be able to remove his soul.

But for this line of reasoning to work, you need to speculate that Zidane can have emotions without a soul. But this is never backed up by story. All the Genomes without souls are emotionless. Garland wanted Zidane to be emotionless, thus he concluded that he needed to remove Zidane's soul to accomplish this. We can see this by his quote, which you gave.

Garland didn't say he would, he did, Tac.

Yes, Trance is evidence of Zidane's emotions, why Kuja hadn't access to Trance? He was indeed emotionless. The plot makes things clear, even Eiko's Moogle was able to go into Trance, by the surge of its emotions, after seeing that, Kuja got the plan to absorb all the souls from the Invincible. Everything is backed up by evidence, I am not speculating, I have evidence. Garland didn't wanted Zidane to be emotionless, he saw that Zidane refused to accept his fate, tried to fight him and even said he would destroy Terra once he has the power to do it, it's obvious that before this situation, Garland removed his soul. It could have been a completely threat to him. Zidane sided with Gaia instead with Terra, Garland's plans went to trash.

Originally posted by TacDavey
"He's too good to make into a regular Genome."

Notice Garlands goal here. He wants to make Zidane like all the other Genomes that you see walking around. A lifeless robot, basically. That's what he's trying to do. And he decided that the way to do this, was to remove Zidanes soul. That seems to suggest, that removing the soul takes away the emotions, and this is back up again, by looking at the Genomes that have souls, and the Genomes that don't. All the genomes that have souls, have emotions. And all the Genomes that don't, don't. Now, if Garland made Zidane to be able to possess emotions without a soul, then he should have KNOWN that removing the soul wouldn't give him the result he was looking for! The only logical explanation is that Garland was going to, or was in the process of removing the soul when Zidane's team showed up and stopped it.

Garland didn't said anything about Zidane's emotions though. He just removed his soul. I never said Garland made Zidane with the ability to possess emotions, you are making that up, Zidane developed strong feelings so that's why he awakened is Trance in the first place, and maybe he did it because he was made to be superior to Kuja who could never reach that power due that Kuja is rather emotionless. I said that Zidane's case is totally different from the rest of the Genomes and I gave enough reasons from the plot itself. I brought enough evidence to back my claims, you are repeating the same with different words, read above. The scene in the Pandemonium (One of the most important in the plot, I must add) disagrees with your argument completely and back what I'm saying. You have nothing to back any of your claims. Garland wasn't doing nor tried to do anything when they encountered him and then fought him.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, there IS speculation on your part. As far as I know, at least. None of your quotes absolutely dictate that your stance is the correct one. Unless you have more quotes that you did not bring.

I don't really think so, but whatever, if you say so...

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, the Genomes ARE lifeless. Look at when they meet them in the game. They show no emotion whatsoever, and that's when the even respond. The party even comments about it.

That's when they were in Terra, so in that case, the correct definition is they WERE lifeless. Just look at them once they are with the Black Mages in Gaia, they are learning things about life and begin to socialize. Once again, Zidane HAD a soul AND was raised in Gaia.

Originally posted by TacDavey
The FF Wiki isn't absolute. It is written by fans.

But it's coherent information and 97% accurate, go and try to change something from there. Plus, I don't need that source, I just wanted to showing it to you.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Garland WOULDN'T have failed in removing the soul if it wasn't for Zidane's team showing up. Since Garland made Zidane, then he should know if removing the soul will remove the emotions or not, right? But accourding to you, he DIDN'T know that. According to you, Garland simply screwed up. But that's not what I'm saying. Garland WAS removing the soul and WOULD have succeeded had Zidane's team not saved him.

Your first sentence is already covered and is false.
Wow... And I'm the one who is speculating without evidence?
Read above.

Originally posted by TacDavey
The game never 100% tells us what happened or why Zidane regained feelings. Some speculation IS required..

Zidane didn't regained his feelings, when Garland removed his soul, it directly affected his current feelings, that's why he was losing his self and thanks to his friends he regained it and could overcome that situation. Hell, he didn't even remembered his own name! He was a robot and just look at his health, he seems tired and all messed up. Plus, the time that passed during when Garland was with Zidane and removed his soul and when he left Zidane in the Pandemonium is unknown, but I suppose is a very long time until the party arrived, because the party didn't even knew about Pandemonium, only Zidane, so this also back me up.

TacDavey
Greiver, you are just repeating yourself now. You claim that Garaland removed his soul, and your only defence is, "Because he said he was going to do it." How is that a defence? Then you bring in a whole bunch of quotes, that do NOT show what you claim they show. The Black Mage thing proves NOTHING. They said maybe they would open up to them, so what? How does that show anything? All it shows is that the Black Mages where similar because they were just toys made by Kuja and Galrand. Nothing more.

Like I said, we HAVE to speculate. The game never actually spells out what happened. We HAVE to look at the evidence. Here's yours:

1.) Garland said he would remove Zidanes soul
2.) He did... because I say he did.
3.) The genomes live with Black Mages now.
4.) Zidane grew up on Gaia.

Tell me which one of those points actually proves that Zidane lost his soul? The correct answer is none of them. They are all irrelevant information that you are trying to draw conclusions from that simply don't exist.

Here is what we know for SURE.

1.) Genomes that have souls, have emotions.
2.) Zidane has emotions.
3.) Garland wanted to make Zidane like all the other Genomes.
4.) Obviously, this means he wanted Zidane to not have emotions.
5.) Garland says he will take Zidanes soul, but we never see him do it.
6.) We don't know the process involved with taking the soul, or how long it takes.
7.) Zidane was on the verge of becoming a lifeless being, but wasn't fully there, since we see him having plenty of emotions even before Dagger shows up.
8.) Zidane regains his emotions.

That's IT. That's the only information we have available to us. Now what part of that says, that with 100% God certainty Zidane lost his soul? I want a number, GrieverSquall because I'm tired of playing this game with you. Give me a number.

You HAVE to speculate because we don't have enough information to give an answer with 100% certainty.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
Greiver, you are just repeating yourself now. You claim that Garaland removed his soul, and your only defence is, "Because he said he was going to do it." How is that a defence?

Oh my God, the hypocrisy! I'm sorry... I think that's you.
How comes that is the only thing I said? I brought a lot of stuff to back that up. I don't know why you're calling it my defense now, maybe this is YOUR defense.
Garland never said he WAS going to do it, he definitely did something to Zidane in those moments after their chat, you can't deny it. He removed his soul and left Zidane in the Pandemonium. Simple as that.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Then you bring in a whole bunch of quotes, that do NOT show what you claim they show. The Black Mage thing proves NOTHING. They said maybe they would open up to them, so what? How does that show anything? All it shows is that the Black Mages where similar because they were just toys made by Kuja and Galrand. Nothing more.

That shows they aren't lifeless robots as you said they were, and that they can be normal beings with emotions, just as Vivi and Zidane are (And most of those Black Mages if I am not mistaken). That is what it shows. Huh? The Black Mages weren't made by Garland.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Like I said, we HAVE to speculate. The game never actually spells out what happened. We HAVE to look at the evidence. Here's yours:

1.) Garland said he would remove Zidanes soul
2.) He did... because I say he did.
3.) The genomes live with Black Mages now.
4.) Zidane grew up on Gaia.

Tell me which one of those points actually proves that Zidane lost his soul? The correct answer is none of them. They are all irrelevant information that you are trying to draw conclusions from that simply don't exist.

That "Irrelevant" information is evidence from the plot itself. Plus, those aren't really all of my points, arguments and evidences, as those aren't really my words nor the way I have expressed them, they pretty much showed what I was suggesting. I have elaborated each of those points, actually, if you could read my post, then you would understand. You're downplaying my entire post and points now, you're just putting them here, simplifying them, disregarding evidence and information to make them look simple and without any basis in fact, or at least that's what I'm seeing. Now sure: "they don't show anything". I am not going to waste my time in repeating myself with another post, I don't have time for mind games. I have pretty much replied entirely to your previous posts and points without skipping nor ignoring anything. You're clearly having lacks of argument. Good trick.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Here is what we know for SURE.

1.) Genomes that have souls, have emotions.
2.) Zidane has emotions.
3.) Garland wanted to make Zidane like all the other Genomes.
4.) Obviously, this means he wanted Zidane to not have emotions.
5.) Garland says he will take Zidanes soul, but we never see him do it.
6.) We don't know the process involved with taking the soul, or how long it takes.
7.) Zidane was on the verge of becoming a lifeless being, but wasn't fully there, since we see him having plenty of emotions even before Dagger shows up.
8.) Zidane regains his emotions.

No.

Same case here. These points are YOUR arguments and you keep repeating them, these have been disproven in my post AND previous posts, we were discussing them. Do you really think I can fall so easily? I have elaborated and replied to each of those previous points and arguments already, and these are the same as before, do you want me to repeat myself or something? You are repeating yourself, now with a form of: "Points" to make them look as evidence and disregarding mine. All of what you mention here is the same you posted before, those aren't evidence from the plot by the way. You are making things up by saying stuff like: "Garland wanted to erase Zidane's emotions", that was pretty much disproven and already discussed in our previous posts, that doesn't make any sense either, as Garland never said anything about emotions, at all. You said it by yourself, we don't need to see something to know something, so who cares if we don't know the process in removing a soul from a Genome? We don't know the process in creating a Genome either nor the process in inserting a soul, we don't know a bunch of stuff, so? How's that even relevant? Before Dagger shows up he was a lifeless being not even remembering his own name and all messed up, but thanks to her and his friends, Zidane regained his true self and could overcome that situation as he already have developed feelings/emotions, but he lost his soul. And again... Trance is evidence of his emotions, that has nothing to do with souls. Trance is something that surges due of the emotions, strong emotions. Something that Kuja couldn't achieve, because he's an emotionless being, he HAD to absorb souls instead, EVEN Vivi has Trance and I'm sure he doesn't have any soul as he is just like a puppet that can live longer. The plot make things clear. Even Wiki agrees with me even if you call it 'inaccurate' information written by fans, but those 'fans' as you call them knows more than you as I can see, I don't really think they would make that up. Anyway, I thought you was about to elaborate a good argument for my posts and quotes. I am disappointed.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That's IT. That's the only information we have available to us. Now what part of that says, that with 100% God certainty Zidane lost his soul? I want a number, GrieverSquall because I'm tired of playing this game with you. Give me a number.

You HAVE to speculate because we don't have enough information to give an answer with 100% certainty.

False.
I suggest you to not repeat yourself like this to prove your stance, this is getting old. You SHOULD reply to my previous post to prove your stance, Tac. If you can't, then this is over. I don't have more to add, I see you didn't even replied to my post, just to the Black Mage stuff. At the moment, nothing of what you claimed puts Zidane above Cloud, AT ALL.

In some cases.
This is like Squall and Laguna, that is never told in the game, but he's Squall's father.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Oh my God, the hypocrisy! I'm sorry... I think that's you.
How comes that is the only thing I said? I brought a lot of stuff to back that up. I don't know why you're calling it my defense now, maybe this is YOUR defense.
Garland never said he WAS going to do it, he definitely did something to Zidane in those moments after their chat, you can't deny it. He removed his soul and left Zidane in the Pandemonium. Simple as that.


laughing laughing laughing See? Thanks for proving my point. "He removed his soul and left Zidane in the Pandemonium. Simple as that." Nice defense bro.

Sure he did something to Zidane, but we don't KNOW that he removed his soul. My theory is he was in the process of removing it. That explains a lot of the scene. Notice that Zidane isn't mindlessly repeating "I am an empty vessel" when the scene starts. As it progresses, you see him continuously wither away. By the end of that little scene, he has started with the "empty vessel" rant, but Vivi and Eiko snap him out of it.

Don't pretend I haven't supported my stance, as I have MORE than adequately. I have given you the three possibilities of what happened, then went through each to see which made the most logical sense. Yours didn't make the cut.

But you didn't respond the my data, instead you brought a bunch of quotes and claimed they showed something they did not.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That shows they aren't lifeless robots as you said they were, and that they can be normal beings with emotions, just as Vivi and Zidane are (And most of those Black Mages if I am not mistaken). That is what it shows. Huh? The Black Mages weren't made by Garland.

No it doesn't. Why does it show that? I see no evidence that that suggests they can have emotions. All it says is that the Genomes would fit in better with the mages, because they are similar. Obviously they can't dump the Genomes in Alexandria, now can they?

Also, I said made by Kuja and Garland.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That "Irrelevant" information is evidence from the plot itself. Plus, those aren't really all of my points, arguments and evidences, as those aren't really my words nor the way I have expressed them, they pretty much showed what I was suggesting. I have elaborated each of those points, actually, if you could read my post, then you would understand. You're downplaying my entire post and points now, you're just putting them here, simplifying them, disregarding evidence and information to make them look simple and without any basis in fact, or at least that's what I'm seeing. Now sure: "they don't show anything". I am not going to waste my time in repeating myself with another post, I don't have time for mind games. I have pretty much replied entirely to your previous posts and points without skipping nor ignoring anything. You're clearly having lacks of argument. Good trick.

Those are the simplified version of your points. And explaining them better does not make them more logical.

I have provided a rational form of reasoning supporting my stance, which you blatantly ignored. Instead, you brought a ton a quotes that I refuted already.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No.

Same case here. These points are YOUR arguments and you keep repeating them, these have been disproven in my post AND previous posts, we were discussing them.

You most certainly have not. You didn't even touch my process explanation. All you have done is repeated that garland took it, and that Genomes can have emotions. You then backed this up with some quotes. Garlands being "I'm gonna take his soul" and the Genomes being "Lets ditch them with the mages, they'll fit in better here." And then you claimed that that supported your stance and refuted mine, and it did NEITHER of those things.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Do you really think I can fall so easily? I have elaborated and replied to each of those previous points and arguments already, and these are the same as before, do you want me to repeat myself or something? You are repeating yourself, now with a form of: "Points" to make them look as evidence and disregarding mine. All of what you mention here is the same you posted before, those aren't evidence from the plot by the way. You are making things up by saying stuff like: "Garland wanted to erase Zidane's emotions", that was pretty much disproven and already discussed in our previous posts, that doesn't make any sense either, as Garland never said anything about emotions, at all.

Disproven was it? I don't remember that. When did that happen? Oh wait, it never did.

GrieverSquall, Garland never said specifically that he wanted to take Zidane's emotions, you have to use a little bit of common sense to figure that out. Garland says "He's too good to make into a REGULAR GENOME." Now, what are the REGULAR GENOMES like? Oh right, they are those emotionless robots. So, that means that when Garland wants to make him into one of THOSE, he wants to make him into a mindless robot, because that's what they are.

It's not hard, and it IS a logical conclusion to draw. Far more logical than yours, which is basically:

Garland removed his soul for no reason. He knew Zidane wouldn't loose his emotions, and he knew Zidane wouldn't loose any skill, and he knew Zidane wouldn't loose Trance. So he took it for fun.

Nevermind that Zidane wasn't like the other genomes AT ALL at the end of it, which is what Garland was going for the whole time.

So tell me, GrieverSquall, why did Garland remove Zidane's soul? What was he hoping to accomplish? Why remove his soul if he knew that Zidane would go RIGHT back to how he was the moment he met back up with his friends?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Something that Kuja couldn't achieve, because he's an emotionless being, he HAD to absorb souls instead, EVEN Vivi has Trance and I'm sure he doesn't have any soul as he is just like a puppet that can live longer.

Kuja wasn't an emotionless being!? What are you talking about? Kuja was FULL of emotions that whole game. Now you just making stuff up! Kuja had a soul, as did Zidane. That's why they had emotions. Kuja couldn't go into trance because emotions aren't the only thing needed to do that. Notice Beatrix couldn't go into trance, yet she had emotions, did she not?

It's stated at the beginning of the game that only special people can go into trance. Not anyone who has emotions. Emotions are simply what triggers it.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
False.
I suggest you to not repeat yourself like this to prove your stance, this is getting old. You SHOULD reply to my previous post to prove your stance, Tac. If you can't, then this is over. I don't have more to add, I see you didn't even replied to my post, just to the Black Mage stuff. At the moment, nothing of what you claimed puts Zidane above Cloud, AT ALL.

In some cases.
This is like Squall and Laguna, that is never told in the game, but he's Squall's father.

No, because the soul argument doesn't do ANYTHING in the Cloud vs. Zidane debate. Really, I don't know why you brought it up in the first place, since as far as the main debate is concerned it's completely irrelevant. Never the less, we started debating it and here we are.

I have given my reasons behind Zidane beating Cloud. We know that he is a genetically created weapon. Even his villains are more powerful. His team defeated Trance Kuja, who destroys planets on his off days, and then went on to defeat Necron, who basically ends all existence. True, this isn't fully accurate since we are dealing with teams, but evidence can still be found from it. We know Zidane is the strongest in his team, for instance. Thus we know he played an important role in the defeat of both of those characters. Cloud can't beat Sephirtoh, who isn't nearly as powerful as Trance Kuja or Necron.

GrieverSquall
I'll reply to the soul debate. About your argument on Zidane beating Cloud, I'll respond to it once we are done with this first, I don't want to transform this into a bunch of confusing posts.

Originally posted by TacDavey
laughing laughing laughing See? Thanks for proving my point. "He removed his soul and left Zidane in the Pandemonium. Simple as that." Nice defense bro.

That would be the conclusion, not defense.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Sure he did something to Zidane, but we don't KNOW that he removed his soul. My theory is he was in the process of removing it. That explains a lot of the scene. Notice that Zidane isn't mindlessly repeating "I am an empty vessel" when the scene starts. As it progresses, you see him continuously wither away. By the end of that little scene, he has started with the "empty vessel" rant, but Vivi and Eiko snap him out of it.

The dialogues and events suggests that Garland in fact removed Zidane's soul, or, that he did something to it. There isn't any kind of "process", why Garland would require a process? Nothing really suggest that. Zidane isn't repeating "I am an empty vessel"? And what that shows? I do agree his friends helped, but not to recover his soul nor to stop any "process", it's about his emotions, his memories, his true self. Even if I do accept what you say, we never know when the party learns about Pandemonium in its totality, nor the time they took to reach it and to even find Zidane inside of it. It is logical to assume they took much time since Mikoto was the only one who knew about that place, the time that passes between these two scenes is unknown. So there was enough time for Garland to have done whatever he wanted to Zidane. Garland drained Zidane's soul when their chat ended or Garland had enough time to do it after having him totally defenseless and at his mercy. You choose. There is enough time. There is also a third option.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No it doesn't. Why does it show that? I see no evidence that that suggests they can have emotions. All it says is that the Genomes would fit in better with the mages, because they are similar. Obviously they can't dump the Genomes in Alexandria, now can they?

Also, I said made by Kuja and Garland.

The Genomes may learn new things and they may open up to them, Zidane said that if the Black Mages get along with the Genomes, they may live together with humans someday, I don't know what he meant but they will not remain as lifeless and they are no longer vessels from Terra, they can develop feelings and start a new life in Gaia, just as Zidane did, with his friends, not alone. There's absolutely nothing suggesting it's IMPOSSIBLE for them to develop feelings. Also, some of the Black Mages doesn't seem to be emotionless, you don't have to be "hyper" to have emotions, most of them are simply shy.

Okay, but I'm pointing out that Kuja is the one who created Black Mages.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Those are the simplified version of your points. And explaining them better does not make them more logical.

I have provided a rational form of reasoning supporting my stance, which you blatantly ignored. Instead, you brought a ton a quotes that I refuted already.

Points requires elaboration and construction, not simplification. Never tried to make them more logical. I never ignored anything. You can't refute any quotes, I just brought them here from the game itself.

Originally posted by TacDavey
GrieverSquall, Garland never said specifically that he wanted to take Zidane's emotions, you have to use a little bit of common sense to figure that out. Garland says "He's too good to make into a REGULAR GENOME." Now, what are the REGULAR GENOMES like? Oh right, they are those emotionless robots. So, that means that when Garland wants to make him into one of THOSE, he wants to make him into a mindless robot, because that's what they are.

And Garland achieved that, actually. Zidane became an empty vessel, but his true emotions, feelings and memories were recovered thanks to his friends. Plus, if you didn't know, 'vessel' is just a term used to call the Genomes and 'Zombie' is a term used by Zidane, they aren't robots. Garland's plan was to make Zidane the new Angel of Death, but since Zidane refused to do so and even claimed that he would punish the people of Terra if he had the power, Garland had no other choice but removing his soul, THAT IS in the scene. I watched it. Another logical possibility is that Garland gave a new soul to Zidane replacing the old one. And this clearly suggest it:

Garland
"Well...now you should be fully aware of the meaning of your existence..."
"!?"

Zidane
"I wouldn't want that kind of power... if I only had a place to call home..."
"My brothers in Tantalus, Vivi, Freya, Amarant, Quina, Steiner, Eiko, and...Dagger..."
"My home is with them in Gaia!"
"If you say I have a motive, then it's to punish all of you who brought pain to my friends!"
"I'll destroy Terra! That's reason enough for my birth here as a Genome!"

Garland
"Regrettable... I thought your soul would be perfect for a new angel of death..."

Zidane
"I AM the new angel of death! Yours!!!"

Garland
"Don't you know what it means to meet your maker?"

Zidane
"Shut up! I've heard enough of your crap! I'm taking you out, right here, right now!"

Garland
"Foolishness..."

(The screen suddenly goes black and these words appears, words that Garland spelled)

"The body becomes a vessel, which greets a NEW soul..."

Zidane
"What's happening!?"

(Zidane passes out)

This also means Garland could have modified Zidane and gave him a new soul (read the quote), he was about to be an immortal Angel of Death but Garland changed his mind about this. That also means he removed his soul. You have three choices now and the three of them suggest Garland drained Zidane's soul or modified him. Remember that Garland gave a soul to Mikoto and she was supposed to replace Zidane. This option seems even more pausible than the first one since there are more evidence supporting it. But again, Zidane's friends played an important role, they helped him to recover from such state, just read what they say, all the things they shared together, the moments he helped and protected each of them, all of that have an important meaning in the plot. Zidane didn't remember the meaning of friendship, not even his own name. Garland achieved in making Zidane an empty vessel, but his friends in fact helped him to recover, that doesn't mean they brought back Zidane's soul. Zidane's true soul is, in essence, his friends.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Kuja wasn't an emotionless being!? What are you talking about? Kuja was FULL of emotions that whole game. Now you just making stuff up! Kuja had a soul, as did Zidane. That's why they had emotions. Kuja couldn't go into trance because emotions aren't the only thing needed to do that. Notice Beatrix couldn't go into trance, yet she had emotions, did she not? It's stated at the beginning of the game that only special people can go into trance. Not anyone who has emotions. Emotions are simply what triggers it.

You got it wrong. disgust What I meant is that Kuja hadn't strong emotions. Eiko's Moogle awakened Trance, then Kuja learned about it, that's why he decided to absorb all the souls that resides in the Invincible, to obtain such power and to surpass even Garland's. Notice that Kuja already had his own soul, but he needed others to triggers its emotions, emotions that seems to be within them since they are souls that "can't die", just like the soul from the Queen, that's why he entered in such powerful Trance.

Trance is surged by strong emotions, like anger, Kuja is "emotionless" in the way that he doesn't have any kind of compassion for people and is totally narcissist, he doesn't care about anything but him, and he would never protect others, he didn't wanted the world to exist without him, if he was going to die, then the world must end as well. Beatrix couldn't go into Trance, a Moogle says that there are some sort of 'chosen ones' who can, but a simple conclusion is that she isn't a main character, just like Blank and Marcus couldn't either. Steiner could, the player can use his earlier in the game despite that it seems he goes into Trance in the third disc while fighting alongside Beatrix.

The Black Mages are soulless, they are toys of war made with Magic, but look at Vivi, he has Trance. Same applies to Zidane who is still capable of entering into Trance without relying in a soul, because he still have his emotions, friends and the people whose cares about him. Zidane was the only Genome capable of entering Trance naturally, because he developed feelings, he isn't like the rest of the Genomes. Being raised in Gaia is also something that never was supposed to happen. That wasn't in Garland's plans either, remember that Kuja was the one who changed Zidane's fate and left him in Gaia. Garland never mentioned something about the power of Trance, I do believe is because that power is unknown for the people of Terra, that also explains why Kuja and Zidane didn't know about it either.

You're right about that this is never fully explained in the game, but I do have my own interpretations, just like you, and is valid.

whats up!
zidane head butts him

TacDavey
You did not respond to my questions GrieverSquall.

Why did Garland remove Zidane's soul if it is not tied to his power, memories, or emotions? If the soul is not responsible for those things, and Garland DID succeed in removing Zidanes soul, WHY did he want to, since it changed NOTHING? It did NOTHING to Zidane AT ALL. He wanted to stop Zidane, because he was powerful and had turned against him, and YOUR argument is that he decided the best way to accomplish this feat was to remove something that wouldn't alter Zidane in any way? How is that logical?

Also, Kuja wasn't emotionless at all. He just couldn't perform Trance. Some people, heck, MOST people can't. That's just how it is. I could have the strongest emotions possible and still not be able to use Trance. Beatrix can't use Trance, is SHE emotionless? No, of course not. The beginning of the game makes it VERY clear that only a select few "Chosen ones" have the ability to use Trance. Emotions are simply what triggers Trance IF you already have it.

Kuja was just one of the ones who didn't have it.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
Why did Garland remove Zidane's soul if it is not tied to his power, memories, or emotions? If the soul is not responsible for those things, and Garland DID succeed in removing Zidanes soul, WHY did he want to, since it changed NOTHING? It did NOTHING to Zidane AT ALL. He wanted to stop Zidane, because he was powerful and had turned against him, and YOUR argument is that he decided the best way to accomplish this feat was to remove something that wouldn't alter Zidane in any way? How is that logical?


Have you read what I've posted...? Where I said the soul it is not tied to anything? I don't remember saying that. Zidane WAS about to be immortal and powerful. Garland wanted to stop Zidane and he DID stop Zidane. I said that the quotes were suggesting that he removed his soul, inserted a new soul, or simply modified Zidane. His friends just helped him to recover from that state, that is all.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Also, Kuja wasn't emotionless at all. He just couldn't perform Trance. Some people, heck, MOST people can't. That's just how it is. I could have the strongest emotions possible and still not be able to use Trance. Beatrix can't use Trance, is SHE emotionless? No, of course not. The beginning of the game makes it VERY clear that only a select few "Chosen ones" have the ability to use Trance. Emotions are simply what triggers Trance IF you already have it.

Kuja was just one of the ones who didn't have it.

Seriously... Have you read or not? Why are you repeating that Kuja wasn't emotionless? I have explained that I didn't mean that, read my post. You are repeating the same I have posted, there are chosen ones who can go into Trance... Yes, I know. What's your point?

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Have you read what I've posted...? Where I said the soul it is not tied to anything? I don't remember saying that. Zidane WAS about to be immortal and powerful. Garland wanted to stop Zidane and he DID stop Zidane. I said that the quotes were suggesting that he removed his soul, inserted a new soul, or simply modified Zidane. His friends just helped him to recover from that state, that is all.

But look at Zidane after the process. He hasn't changed AT ALL. Yet you are saying that Garland succeed with whatever it was he was trying to do, so that must mean that whatever it was he was trying to do, didn't do anything to Zidane. That means that, since his power, memories, and emotions are all still intact even though Garland succeeded in removing his soul, that all those things are not linked to Zidane's soul.

So you think Garland removed Zidanes soul and put in another one? Where are you getting this radical, baseless argument? There is nothing to suggest that is the case at all.

It's far more likely that Zidane was going to loose his soul, but didn't because his friends snapped him out of it and ruined the process before his soul was lost.



Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Seriously... Have you read or not? Why are you repeating that Kuja wasn't emotionless? I have explained that I didn't mean that, read my post. You are repeating the same I have posted, there are chosen ones who can go into Trance... Yes, I know. What's your point?

"What I meant is that Kuja hadn't strong emotions."

Emotions aren't what give you the ability to go into Trance is my point. Kuja wasn't Tranceless because his emotions weren't strong enough, he was Tranceless because he wasn't a chosen one.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
But look at Zidane after the process. He hasn't changed AT ALL. Yet you are saying that Garland succeed with whatever it was he was trying to do, so that must mean that whatever it was he was trying to do, didn't do anything to Zidane. That means that, since his power, memories, and emotions are all still intact even though Garland succeeded in removing his soul, that all those things are not linked to Zidane's soul.

He hasn't changed? Zidane was intact? Are you serious? Look at Zidane when Garland leaves him in the Pandemonium for God's sake. If Zidane was fine AFTERWARDS, it is just because his friends helped him, not because they stopped some kind of 'process', or because Garland has failed. He said it by himself and to Zidane, "Don't you know what it means to meet your maker?" Garland implies that he can do whatever he wants to Zidane. Stop ignoring evidence.

Originally posted by TacDavey
So you think Garland removed Zidanes soul and put in another one? Where are you getting this radical, baseless argument? There is nothing to suggest that is the case at all.

I have posted the quotes already, please don't ignore evidence. When Garland and Zidane's chat ends, Garland performs some kind of "spell", the screen goes suddenly black and these words: "The body becomes a vessel, which greets a NEW soul..." appears, then Zidane passes out. Notice in those words, THE BODY BECOMES A VESSEL WHICH GREETS A NEW SOUL, afterwards Zidane was at Garland's mercy, there's no escape, Tac.

Originally posted by TacDavey
It's far more likely that Zidane was going to loose his soul, but didn't because his friends snapped him out of it and ruined the process before his soul was lost.

No, it isn't far more likey. You are basing that off of what? Nothing.
Once again, where in those scenes suggests that Zidane is confronting some kind of process? In none of them. We see Zidane as an empty vessel, which agrees with the quote I have posted above, THE BODY BECOMES A VESSEL.

Originally posted by TacDavey
"What I meant is that Kuja hadn't strong emotions."

Emotions aren't what give you the ability to go into Trance is my point. Kuja wasn't Tranceless because his emotions weren't strong enough, he was Tranceless because he wasn't a chosen one.

I didn't meant Kuja hadn't any emotions. Instead of ignoring my post, I suggest you to read it.

Trance is induced by a surge of emotion, it does not say "Trance is helped with the power of emotions". It's not like Emotions = Trance, but it says by a surge of emotion, it can be referred as an strong emotion, far more strong than normal, that's why there are "chosen ones". Still is contradictory, Vivi is a soulless toy, if a soulless toy can develop feelings, then go into Trance naturally, I don't see why a soulless Genome can't either. Taking into consideration that there are one Genome who developed feelings BEFORE losing his soul. Thing is, the game makes clear that every being can develop feelings, even those whose are soulless.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
He hasn't changed? Zidane was intact? Are you serious? Look at Zidane when Garland leaves him in the Pandemonium for God's sake. If Zidane was fine AFTERWARDS, it is just because his friends helped him, not because they stopped some kind of 'process', or because Garland has failed. He said it by himself and to Zidane, "Don't you know what it means to meet your maker?" Garland implies that he can do whatever he wants to Zidane. Stop ignoring evidence.

I have ignored no evidence. You are simply drawing conclusions from unacceptable bits of evidence.

Look at your example here. You bring one quote, which says "Don't you know what it means to meet your maker" and from that one, single quote, you draw the conclusion that Garland can do whatever he wants to Zidane and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it.

But that quote does NOT say that at all, or even mildly suggest it! All it says is that Garland made Zidane, AND THAT IS IT. You are drawing baseless conclusions from that one quote that you just can't draw, GreiverSquall.

And on top of all that, you have still blatantly ignored my question! I'll ask it again.

You claim the the soul is not responsible for emotions, memories, power, or Trance. So tell me. WHY did Garland remove it when it did NOTHING to Zidane? Garland wanted to stop Zidane because he had turned against him, and to do this he decided to remove Zidane's soul. But why? Since everything that made Zidane a threat isn't linked to the soul at all! Why remove it?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No, it isn't far more likey. You are basing that off of what? Nothing.
Once again, where in those scenes suggests that Zidane is confronting some kind of process? In none of them. We see Zidane as an empty vessel, which agrees with the quote I have posted above, THE BODY BECOMES A VESSEL.

No, I am basing it off of all the evidence and reasoning I have been providing this entire debate.

That quote shows us that Garland was planning to take Zidane's soul.

We know Garland tried to take Zidane's soul. I'm arguing that he failed. Garland tried to take Zidanes soul, but his team showed up before he turn him into one of the regular Gnomes. They saved him, so Garland failed.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I didn't meant Kuja hadn't any emotions. Instead of ignoring my post, I suggest you to read it.

Trance is induced by a surge of emotion, it does not say "Trance is helped with the power of emotions". It's not like Emotions = Trance, but it says by a surge of emotion, it can be referred as an strong emotion, far more strong than normal, that's why there are "chosen ones". Still is contradictory, Vivi is a soulless toy, if a soulless toy can develop feelings, then go into Trance naturally, I don't see why a soulless Genome can't either. Taking into consideration that there are one Genome who developed feelings BEFORE losing his soul. Thing is, the game makes clear that every being can develop feelings, even those whose are soulless.

What? Kuja had a soul, what Genome are you talking about? Don't forget that I don't accept that Zidane ever lost his soul. Nor did I ever make the argument that Trance was linked to the soul.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
I have ignored no evidence. You are simply drawing conclusions from unacceptable bits of evidence.

Look at your example here. You bring one quote, which says "Don't you know what it means to meet your maker" and from that one, single quote, you draw the conclusion that Garland can do whatever he wants to Zidane and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it.

But that quote does NOT say that at all, or even mildly suggest it! All it says is that Garland made Zidane, AND THAT IS IT. You are drawing baseless conclusions from that one quote that you just can't draw, GreiverSquall.

That's not quite right, I'm drawing conclusions from a canon source, which are the quotes, unlike you.

Of course he can do whatever he wants to Zidane. What the hell are you talking about? He has created him, THAT is what he implies, that since he has created him has the enough power to stop him, and he does. Why else Zidane passes out? For no reason? Stop being ridiculous.

IT DOES! I'm having trouble understanding your denial here.

Originally posted by TacDavey
And on top of all that, you have still blatantly ignored my question! I'll ask it again.

You claim the the soul is not responsible for emotions, memories, power, or Trance. So tell me. WHY did Garland remove it when it did NOTHING to Zidane? Garland wanted to stop Zidane because he had turned against him, and to do this he decided to remove Zidane's soul. But why? Since everything that made Zidane a threat isn't linked to the soul at all! Why remove it?

I have ignored no question.

I cannot respond to that question because I have no made such claim. Point me out where, I do not remember saying that, AT ALL. The soul is linked to emotions, memories and Trance, why the hell Kuja needed to absorb hundred of souls to be able to enter Trance? You have no point.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, I am basing it off of all the evidence and reasoning I have been providing this entire debate.

That quote shows us that Garland was planning to take Zidane's soul.

We know Garland tried to take Zidane's soul. I'm arguing that he failed. Garland tried to take Zidanes soul, but his team showed up before he turn him into one of the regular Gnomes. They saved him, so Garland failed.

You're clearly not. You base that off of nothing more that your own interpretation from a little scene where we see Zidane's friends talking to him, and from where you jump to "Yeah they stopped a process".

That quote shows to us that Garland removed Zidane's soul, I gave even other two logical options, which implies basically the same and even implies that Garland modified Zidane.

And I'm arguing that he did not failed. That he turned Zidane into an empty vessel with no memories and his friends helped him to recover little by little. We have a difficult disagreement here. I have no intentions in changing my mind, for you, what you suggest sounds more rational even basing it off of nothing, and for me what I said sounds more rational, that's the way it is, Tac.

Originally posted by TacDavey
What? Kuja had a soul, what Genome are you talking about? Don't forget that I don't accept that Zidane ever lost his soul. Nor did I ever make the argument that Trance was linked to the soul.

I'm talking about Zidane, and it does not really matters if you don't accept my argument, it's not like I am accepting yours.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That's not quite right, I'm drawing conclusions from a canon source, which are the quotes, unlike you.

Of course he can do whatever he wants to Zidane. What the hell are you talking about? He has created him, THAT is what he implies, that since he has created him has the enough power to stop him, and he does. Why else Zidane passes out? For no reason? Stop being ridiculous.

IT DOES! I'm having trouble understanding your denial here.

It DOES NOT. You are simply assuming that since Garland made him, that means he can do whatever he wants to Zidane. Like he is omnipotent when it comes to Zidane, but you're wrong.

Garland can remove Zidanes soul, sure. But how does he do it? How long does it take? These are things that you have no answer for, yet you are SO SURE it can be done before the events take place in Pandemonium, as well as being completely irreversible. How? How do you know how long it takes for a soul to be removed? How do you know the process can't be stopped? You don't. So it is perfectly possible that Zidane never fully lost his soul in Pandemonium because he had yet to loose it, right? It IS possible, since you don't know how long it takes to remove a soul, or what is involved in doing so.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I have ignored no question.

I cannot respond to that question because I have no made such claim. Point me out where, I do not remember saying that, AT ALL. The soul is linked to emotions, memories and Trance, why the hell Kuja needed to absorb hundred of souls to be able to enter Trance? You have no point.

Are you now saying that the soul IS linked with memories, power, and emotions? So tell me, if Zidane lost his soul, why did he not loose all of those things since, according to you, they are linked?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You're clearly not. You base that off of nothing more that your own interpretation from a little scene where we see Zidane's friends talking to him, and from where you jump to "Yeah they stopped a process".

That quote shows to us that Garland removed Zidane's soul, I gave even other two logical options, which implies basically the same and even implies that Garland modified Zidane.

And I'm arguing that he did not failed. That he turned Zidane into an empty vessel with no memories and his friends helped him to recover little by little. We have a difficult disagreement here. I have no intentions in changing my mind, for you, what you suggest sounds more rational even basing it off of nothing, and for me what I said sounds more rational, that's the way it is, Tac.

The quote never says he removed Zidanes soul, only that he was GOING to. That was his plan, NOT that he ever succeeded.

"I'm going to remove your soul."

is NOT the same as:

"I just removed your soul."

If Garlands plan was to remove his memories and emotions by removing his soul, that means that those things are linked to his soul, which means that once the soul is gone, those are gone. But since Zidane still has those things, that means that he either got his soul back, or never lost it in the first place.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
It DOES NOT. You are simply assuming that since Garland made him, that means he can do whatever he wants to Zidane. Like he is omnipotent when it comes to Zidane, but you're wrong.

IT DOES. You are just being ridiculous here. What the f**k?
I never said "omnipotent", but Zidane was at Garland's total mercy! It is so hard to understand? Garland just performed some sort of "spell" with words and Zidane passed out automatically like it was NOTHING! Don't you know what it means to meet your maker? He, ironically implies that has control over Zidane since he has designed him. Zidane tried to "fight" and Garland stopped him like it was nothing. Stop ignoring evidence. You have no point here and YOU are wrong.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Garland can remove Zidanes soul, sure. But how does he do it? How long does it take? These are things that you have no answer for, yet you are SO SURE it can be done before the events take place in Pandemonium, as well as being completely irreversible. How? How do you know how long it takes for a soul to be removed? How do you know the process can't be stopped? You don't. So it is perfectly possible that Zidane never fully lost his soul in Pandemonium because he had yet to loose it, right? It IS possible, since you don't know how long it takes to remove a soul, or what is involved in doing so.

I have already adressed this point some pages back. I'm warning you, we're going in circles. I repeat, the time that passes between the moment when Garland spells that "incantation" to Zidane, and when the party FINALLY finds Zidane already laying down in that chair is totally unknown, but it's safe to assume Zidane has been there for a very long time, Mikoto was the only one who knew about Pandemonium. No one else. So even if I do accept what you say about a supposedly "process" (I do not), between that period of time it is pretty much possible to have been complete.

Also, there isn't any process, you keep claiming that, but honestly, there's nothing suggesting it. However, it is clear that Garland already did what he said he was going to do to Zidane. Plus, it is not really necessary or important to show a "removing soul process" (if there is any) to the players, it is never shown how Garland creates the Genomes either, why? Because is irrelevant. Zidane was at Garland's hands, COMPLETELY, he could have easily kept Zidane with him if there is a "process", why Garland would leave Zidane all alone there in that chair if there is still a "process" waiting to be complete? Is Garland some old idiot? That makes NO sense.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Are you now saying that the soul IS linked with memories, power, and emotions? So tell me, if Zidane lost his soul, why did he not loose all of those things since, according to you, they are linked.

Yes, because I NEVER SAID they weren't. Less knowing Kuja had to absorb hundred of souls to be able to go into Trance, duh. Because Zidane had his friends with him, they were there for him, and they helped him... http://tacticalairsoftteam.esforos.com/archivos/tacticalairsoftteam/emoticonos/facepalm.gif. That's the true meaning of everything. But he WAS lost before his friends showed up, hell, he does not even remember his own name.

And it isn't "according to me", you have to use a bit of common sense and a logical reasoning. Is pretty OBVIOUS that the souls are related and linked somehow with emotions AND Trance.

Originally posted by TacDavey
The quote never says he removed Zidanes soul, only that he was GOING to. That was his plan, NOT that he ever succeeded.

"I'm going to remove your soul."

is NOT the same as:

"I just removed your soul."

If Garlands plan was to remove his memories and emotions by removing his soul, that means that those things are linked to his soul, which means that once the soul is gone, those are gone. But since Zidane still has those things, that means that he either got his soul back, or never lost it in the first place.

Are you saying is IMPOSSIBLE to attain, to have and develop emotions without a soul? That's literally what's you're saying, if that's so, then ask Vivi why he does have emotions without having any soul, as he's just some toy made with Magic, so just as he can, I don't see why Zidane wouldn't have overcome his state with the help of his friends and recover all of his emotions and feelings without relying on his Terra soul, which by the way is the real meaning of that scene and everything. His soul, has been, in fact, drained by Garland. Garland performs that spell and Zidane falls under it, "THE BODY BECOMES A VESSEL, WHICH GREETS A NEW SOUL", thus Zidane has been modified somehow, simple as that. Friendship was the real key there.

TacDavey
The spell that made Zidane fall over wasn't him removing his soul, GreiverSquall, it just knocked him out so Garland could remove it. And again, you don't know what is involved in taking out a soul. You think he can just reach his hand into his chest and pop it out? How do you know it isn't a process?

The truth is we don't know. Just like I can't say for certain it isn't as simple as pulling it out, neither can you say for certain it isn't a slow process.

So where does that leave us?

1.) We don't know if Zidane lost his soul by the time we see him in Pandemonium.

Next, you said that memories, power, and emotions are all linked to a soul, BUT Zidane never lost any of them when he lost his soul. See the contradiction here? If his soul is responsible for all those things, hearing some kind words from some friends isn't going to bring them back after it has been taken. That means, if he can have memories, power, and emotions perfectly well without a soul, then that means that a soul ISN'T necessary for those things, and thus loosing one shouldn't take them away. But if that is the case, why did Garland decide to take his soul? He decided to do so to remove his Emotions, memories, and power. So we can logically say that they ARE linked to a soul.

2.) Memories, power, and emotions are linked with a soul.

So with these two points in mind, we can determine the logical conclusion. Keeping in mind that point 1 could go either way, we can use point 2 to decide which way it went. Since all those things are linked to a soul, and Zidane never lost any of those things, it must mean he never lost his soul.

The only other alternative is this:

Zidane lost his soul, lost all his emotions and memories and somehow got them back for no reason at all. Somehow, simply seeing his friends could restore them, which means they weren't tied to a soul, because a soul isn't necessary to have them. Thus, Garlands plan was, in fact, pointless.

But MY explanation is far more logical.

Zidane was taken to Pandemonium while his soul was being removed. The scene even supports the process theory as we can see that he isn't a "lifeless vessel" at the start of the scene, like he SHOULD be if he has already lost his soul. Instead, we see him slowly degrading over time. It isn't until close to the end of that scene that he starts with the "lifeless vessel" talk, at which point, his friends come and snap him out of it. Then, over the course of the next few scenes, his friends help stop him from loosing/regain his soul.

My explanation fully covers and explains all aspects of the scene. Yours contains a bunch more questions that need answering, like why the process of removing a soul would ever take emotions and memories since the two are obviously not codependent.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
The spell that made Zidane fall over wasn't him removing his soul, GreiverSquall, it just knocked him out so Garland could remove it. And again, you don't know what is involved in taking out a soul. You think he can just reach his hand into his chest and pop it out? How do you know it isn't a process?

The truth is we don't know. Just like I can't say for certain it isn't as simple as pulling it out, neither can you say for certain it isn't a slow process.

So where does that leave us?

The spell that made Zidane pass out, was him taking his soul away.
See what I did there? Do not point your finger at me when you're the one making incoherent assumptions.

Also, you ignore completely the meaning of the words, for some reason those made Zidane scream and to pass out. "What's happening?!?!" sounds like something is happening to Zidane's body or organism that is beyond his own comprehension, if you ask me.

Originally posted by TacDavey
1.) We don't know if Zidane lost his soul by the time we see him in Pandemonium.

Next, you said that memories, power, and emotions are all linked to a soul, BUT Zidane never lost any of them when he lost his soul. See the contradiction here? If his soul is responsible for all those things, hearing some kind words from some friends isn't going to bring them back after it has been taken. That means, if he can have memories, power, and emotions perfectly well without a soul, then that means that a soul ISN'T necessary for those things, and thus loosing one shouldn't take them away. But if that is the case, why did Garland decide to take his soul? He decided to do so to remove his Emotions, memories, and power. So we can logically say that they ARE linked to a soul.

That's your assumption, not mine.

I did not say "power". I specified "emotions" over all. We know this, because Kuja needed hundred of souls to enter Trance. If he needed souls, it means the souls are somehow related to emotions, and emotions to Trance. Zidane hasn't lost his emotions and part of his memories? Are you sure? Watch the video again or play the game. Some kind words from his friends isn't going to bring them back? Lol, and what makes you think some kind words would stop a "removing soul process"? It's a plot point for God's sake, you are having difficulties in understanding that concept, Tac. Like saying, because I have some friends does not mean I will travel through time and prevent myself being absorbed by a Time Compression. It's a plot point. Welcome to the Fantasy.

Originally posted by TacDavey
2.) Memories, power, and emotions are linked with a soul.

So with these two points in mind, we can determine the logical conclusion. Keeping in mind that point 1 could go either way, we can use point 2 to decide which way it went. Since all those things are linked to a soul, and Zidane never lost any of those things, it must mean he never lost his soul.

Read above.

Zidane lost his soul or was modified, I gave three logical options.
You are also forgetting that Mikoto was going to replace Zidane and Garland specifically gave her a soul for that purpose. Play the game.
I know all of this is contradictory, I'm having difficulties myself, don't worry. I'm basing all of this from canon.

Originally posted by TacDavey
The only other alternative is this:

Zidane lost his soul, lost all his emotions and memories and somehow got them back for no reason at all. Somehow, simply seeing his friends could restore them, which means they weren't tied to a soul, because a soul isn't necessary to have them. Thus, Garlands plan was, in fact, pointless.

But MY explanation is far more logical.

Yeah, good, I gave also some alternatives, those you ignored.

One of those alternatives, is that Garland replaced Zidane's soul, but my point still stands as he STILL REMOVED HIS SOUL. Garland did not failed at all, you seem to think he is some old idiot, which he is not.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Zidane was taken to Pandemonium while his soul was being removed. The scene even supports the process theory as we can see that he isn't a "lifeless vessel" at the start of the scene, like he SHOULD be if he has already lost his soul. Instead, we see him slowly degrading over time. It isn't until close to the end of that scene that he starts with the "lifeless vessel" talk, at which point, his friends come and snap him out of it. Then, over the course of the next few scenes, his friends help stop him from loosing/regain his soul.

My explanation fully covers and explains all aspects of the scene. Yours contains a bunch more questions that need answering, like why the process of removing a soul would ever take emotions and memories since the two are obviously not codependent.

Huh? He was taken to Pandemonium? Lmao. Zidane WAS ALREADY in Pandemonium, he was left there in that damn chair. Your knowledge about the game is really vague. The scene supports what? Garland would still leave him alone knowing that there's still is a process going on?! You are no making sense anymore. Wrong, he became an EMPTY vessel, Mikoto states that "Vessel" is a term used to call the Genomes, including herself AND Zidane. Also, read above.

No, it does not. That process could take just seconds or minutes, no one knows. What evidence do you have that the soul is leaving Zidane's body little by little? Nothing, just as we don't have knowledge about Garland making Genomes, that's irrelevant. Since you need answers that the game lacks, you jump to your own conclusions, I can do the same. In the end, both sides are valid, Tac.

TacDavey
Both sides are not valid at all. I gave logical reasoning behind my explanations, I didn't "assume" anything, as you have blatantly done. Zidane wasn't a "lifeless vessel" at the beginning of that scene. Did you notice that, or what? He didn't start with the "lifeless vessel" talk until near the END. This implies he was slowly drifting away. As the scene goes on, we see him sink more and more into the "lifeless vessel" role.

Your stance is confusing me, honestly. You claim that emotions are linked to the soul, but then you are perfectly fine with Zidane having all his emotions after he lost his soul... which means they AREN'T linked. So which is it? Choose one.

Garland sounds more the fool in YOUR version of the happenings than mine. According to you, Garlands master plan wasn't so great after all, since removing Zidane's soul never fixed anything at all.

MY version has Garlands plan working perfectly, only it was interrupted by Zidane's friends before he could complete it.

GrieverSquall
Tac, let's leave it for later, I got bored... pinch

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Tac, let's leave it for later, I got bored... pinch

Fine by me.

GrieverSquall
Lol.

rapswag1
Cloud IS STRONGER LISTEN ZIDANE IS TO CHILDISH DUMMYS CLOUD CAN DO
LIMIT BREAK THAT PROFESSER HOJO PUT INTO HIM CLOUD IS LIKE A SECOUND SEPHITROTH EXEPT HE LOOK WAY DIFFERENT AND HE AIN"T EVIL ZIDANE TAKES NOTHIN SERIOUS PLUS CLOUD HAS SOMMONS AND MATRIA WHO CARES ABOUT PLAYER ZIDANE DOES LIGHT DAMAGE EXPET TRANCE STRENGTH BEATS NIMBLE GET THAT IN UR HEAD

Zack Fair
Originally posted by rapswag1
Cloud IS STRONGER LISTEN ZIDANE IS TO CHILDISH DUMMYS CLOUD CAN DO
LIMIT BREAK THAT PROFESSER HOJO PUT INTO HIM CLOUD IS LIKE A SECOUND SEPHITROTH EXEPT HE LOOK WAY DIFFERENT AND HE AIN"T EVIL ZIDANE TAKES NOTHIN SERIOUS PLUS CLOUD HAS SOMMONS AND MATRIA WHO CARES ABOUT PLAYER ZIDANE DOES LIGHT DAMAGE EXPET TRANCE STRENGTH BEATS NIMBLE GET THAT IN UR HEAD

http://mlkshk.com/r/5RY

SpadeKing
I couldn't tell if that was serious or trolling erm

Kosmic King
Zidane wins because Cloud is so overrated he reeks to high heaven.

GrieverSquall
My thread have been revived! Lol.

If we base our arguments on Advent Children then we already know Cloud would win.

Now, I don't know if I should respond to Tac. I still believe Garland successfully removed Zidane's soul anyway. Heh.

SpadeKing
May as well, it should only take a 748 word response.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
My thread have been revived! Lol.

If we base our arguments on Advent Children then we already know Cloud would win.

Now, I don't know if I should respond to Tac. I still believe Garland successfully removed Zidane's soul anyway. Heh.

Didn't think I'd catch that did ya?

He didn't remove the soul by the way. stick out tongue

Nephthys
If Zidane goes Trance then he spanks Cloud imo. Other than that Cloud has too many other appearences not to win.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
Didn't think I'd catch that did ya?

He didn't remove the soul by the way. stick out tongue

That... sounds convincing. sad
I left this discussion, someone else revived the thread. I won't keep debating whether he did or not. Sorry, Tac. erm

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That... sounds convincing. sad
I left this discussion, someone else revived the thread. I won't keep debating whether he did or not. Sorry, Tac. erm

Cuz you know I'm right. evil face

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
Cuz you know I'm right. evil face

You wish. cool

Kosmic King
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
My thread have been revived! Lol.

If we base our arguments on Advent Children then we already know Cloud would win.

Cloud Strife in Advent Children almost died after one bullet through his armour.

Nephthys
Yeah, and Zidane almost died from a Holy. erm




........... wait

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Kosmic King
Cloud Strife in Advent Children almost died after one bullet through his armour.

Yeah but he fought Kadaj and then Sephiroth before of that bullet, though. What is your point?

TacDavey
Originally posted by Kosmic King
Cloud Strife in Advent Children almost died after one bullet through his armour.

What's your point? I don't see Zidane walking through bullets either.

Nephthys
He tanked a Holy. no expression

Holy > Bullet.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Nephthys
He tanked a Holy. no expression

Holy > Bullet.

Wait. You mean Ultima? Zidane (with his team) were defeated by that attack. And in the second fight with Trance Kuja they were killed.

Cloud was stabbed multiple times in his chest by Sephiroth's Masamune and survived. I don't see Zidane doing the same.

MadMel
Originally posted by Kosmic King
Cloud Strife in Advent Children almost died after one bullet through his armor.
First of all - What armor? He's wearing a shirt. erm
Secondly - That isn't a normal bullet. It didn't even put a hole in Cloud's clothes, or make him bleed. We can't gauge its properties.
Thirdly - Almost died? Nonono, he 'almost died' from that giant explosion after he got shot. The 'bullet' had him on the ground for about 5 seconds, after he had just been cut to pieces by Sephy.

As much as I like Zidane, he doesn't have the kind of feats that AC gives Cloud, so he loses.

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