NJO Luke vs RoT Bane

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Darth Truculent
Force
Lightaber
All Out

Who wins?

Shoes
Is this Bane with orbalisks?

Darth_Glentract
Either way, Luke wins all three.

Shoes
Bane with orbalisk armor isn't so easy to slice in half.

Red Nemesis
I like Bane here. He won't be wtfpwning Luke with his Force offensives, but has Luke done anything noteworthy with a blade yet? Lomi Plo? That was just about overcoming the invisibility trick. And Thul was just a Force challenge, as I remember.

4/10 for bane

BruceSkywalker
whether is it easy or hard NJO Luke takes all three

truejedi
You realize 4/10 for bane actually means 6/10 for luke, Red?

I will take Luke. His WTF pawning of all the slayers and the head Yuzzhon Vong guy convinces me he could take Bane. Electric Judgement to the orbalisks==Death for Bane.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by truejedi
You realize 4/10 for bane actually means 6/10 for luke, Red?

I will take Luke. His WTF pawning of all the slayers and the head Yuzzhon Vong guy convinces me he could take Bane. Electric Judgement to the orbalisks==Death for Bane.
Yes. That was intentional.

It protex me from crazies ranting about Luke, and gives me the option of "reconsidering my position"wink (to more heavily favor bane) after presenting my "argument."

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I like Bane here. He won't be wtfpwning Luke with his Force offensives, but has Luke done anything noteworthy with a blade yet? Lomi Plo? That was just about overcoming the invisibility trick. And Thul was just a Force challenge, as I remember.

4/10 for bane

He's gone toe-to-toe with Sidious at his peak. He's also fought through hundreds, if not thousands, of Yuuzhan Vong and then wtfpwned the best of the best Yuuzhan Vong warriors. There's plenty other stuff too, like his duels with Lumiya. Have you read much EU?

KingD19
His fight with Caedus solidifies him as one of, if not the best swordsman out there. I wouldn't be surprised if he just stabbed Bane in the face, then hit him with EJ.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by KingD19
His fight with Caedus solidifies him as one of, if not the best swordsman out there. I wouldn't be surprised if he just stabbed Bane in the face, then hit him with EJ. His fight with Caedus takes place like a decade after the NJO series, so...

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
His fight with Caedus takes place like a decade after the NJO series, so...
yes
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
He's gone toe-to-toe with Sidious at his peak. He's also fought through hundreds, if not thousands, of Yuuzhan Vong and then wtfpwned the best of the best Yuuzhan Vong warriors. There's plenty other stuff too, like his duels with Lumiya. Have you read much EU?
is any one of those warriors worth anything? If not, then we can't really say that killing a lot of them at once is going to be particularly helpful against bane.

Lumiya's appearances that I know about are all after NJO and all not-very-impressive.

I forgot about DE Sidious, mostly because it is eclipsed in my mind by the Caedus plotline. You're still going to have to explain how it translates into a surefire victory against Bane.

And yes. Yes I have. It is not usually a good policy to attack people based on their knowledge of EU instead of their interpretation of it. Please try not to be a jerk in the future.

truejedi
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
yes

is any one of those warriors worth anything? If not, then we can't really say that killing a lot of them at once is going to be particularly helpful against bane.



1 slayer did fight Kyp Durron to a standstill.

DE Sidious, however, gives Luke an opponent, the ilk of which Bane has never faced.

Yes, Bane has orbalisks, but he can still be stabbed in the head. Lastly, you haven't addressed Electric Judgement yet. Bane has a weakness to force-lightning apparently.

Shoes
Orbalisks do. Bane on the other hand, can simply absorb it.

ares834
Not Emerald Lightning...

Luke wins easily in all three.
I mean he beat a reborn Sidious in his prime in a lightsaber duel. Luke smashes his saber in Bane's face.

Gideon
I will respond shortly, and I will be indiscriminate in my slaughter.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
I will respond shortly, and I will be indiscriminate in my slaughter.

Oh HEEEEEEERE we go. Why do I feel the words "battle meld" and "luke sucks" are going to dominate Gideon's post?

Gideon
I'll address this towards the end.



Just for DS, Luke was using a battle meld and he sucks .

To clarify, the Essential Guide to the Force makes it clear that Luke was the beneficiary of a Jedi battle meld with Jaina and Jacen during his assault on Shimrra's citadel.

For the record, though, it ended when one of them left it; when Jaina engaged in her pursuit of Onimi and when Jacen was knocked unconscious by Shimrra.

DS doesn't like this, but no one cares. The fact is that Luke cannot be factually said to have invaded the citadel under his own power and he did not rely on his skills alone.



He's dueled Lumiya a total of four times, I think. Twice shortly after the Battle of Endor and twice during Legacy of the Force. In either case, it's not very reliable. Not to mention that Skywalker wasn't all that impressive during either fight.

On the other hand...



It is inarguable (yes, inarguable) that Palpatine is a far more dangerous opponent than Bane in any arena short of arm wrestling. He's smarter, more powerful, and more learned in the ways of the Force. Skywalker manhandled him in a lightsaber duel on board the Eclipse.

On the other hand, there is no evidence that suggests that Palpatine maintained his otherwise antiquated lightsaber skills between Revenge of the Sith and Dark Empire.

On the other, other hand, Palpatine apparently still saw use for a lightsaber and kept it on his person well into the original trilogy (the Force Unleashed). So perhaps he did keep up his lightsaber practice.

In any case, beating Palpatine is more impressive than anything Bane has ever or could possibly ever do.



Bingo.

If Bane has the orbalisks, it might not do any good; Luke has the capacity to destroy them and put Bane into a coma.

Really, what it comes down to is a consistent showing of NJO-era Luke's feats. His highest showings (beating Palpatine, etc.) eclipse Bane's showings but, to my knowledge, are far less consistent.

Dr McBeefington
I don't not like this, I'm just amused when you bring it up. Not in a negative way, you're genuinely funny when you bring up Luke's feats.

Eminence
I was under the impression that Leia's had a hand in this.

Gideon
Eminence
I was under the impression that Leia's had a hand in this.

As was I. And that may be the case. But I did not recall the source in particular that confirmed it.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
As was I. And that may be the case. But I did not recall the source in particular that confirmed it.

The source would be the actual DE comic. However, it's unclear as to how much impact she had on those two, as even she admitted that she couldn't even see them.

truejedi
Leia, 20 years AFTER DE, is a very vulnerable Jedi Knight with a very limited knowledge of the force. Considering accessing the force happens through training and experience, how much could she have POSSIBLY helped? I know we abhor common sense in favor of facts, but this is pretty common sensy here.

Gideon
"Common sense," as you define it, flies out the window when one remembers that Palpatine beat Luke's ass like an African drum like, what? Two hours prior to their second duel aboard the Eclipse?

Leia possesses a Skywalker-class attunement to the Force, just as powerful as Luke's connection according to Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor and demonstrates prodigious use of battle meditation during Dark Empire.

But I wasn't certain she used battle meditation during the duel with Palpatine, specifically.

truejedi
Originally posted by Gideon
"Common sense," as you define it, flies out the window when one remembers that Palpatine beat Luke's ass like an African drum like, what? Two hours prior to their second duel aboard the Eclipse?


i really dont know. i dont read comic books. embarrasment



Unless I am forgetting something, has she ever displayed the ability to access and channel that attunement though? Anakin Skywalker's attunement didn't give him the ability to completely access the force. That comes with training. The battle meditation thing from DE, i'm out on though. Does it say, in that portion of the comic that she uses BM?

Is it one of those things that is assumed from a picture (like the desintigrating of metal "feat" someone used to claim about sidious (i don't remember who really,maybe Blax)), and then the picture of the "feat" was posted, and it could be interpreted as any number of things?

It needs dialogue, or be very obvious before it could be said it really helped Luke.



Yup. hopefully someone can post the pic of the fight, and we can decide.

Shoes
Leia's saber: http://i40.tinypic.com/2w5q5o0.jpg

Fight 1: http://i44.tinypic.com/214xiy8.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/11llb9l.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/2jg5lrs.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/2441wt1.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/dha3hj.jpg

Shoes
Fight 2:

http://i42.tinypic.com/5fg3fk.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/wqvb6e.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/2vxgkkg.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/2cnifsg.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/nnjuya.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/2cr4y9x.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/5tzbdc.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/25umi37.jpg

Lord Lucien
Wow. Those comics... they're just awful.

truejedi
Those are Hideous. Hideous. But apparently, the lightsaber battle that Luke won, was on Luke's ability. Leia joins with him to defeat Sidious's force attack.

So pointless though. Those are pathetic.

Red Nemesis
That is kinda the point?

Edit:
Originally posted by truejedi
Those are Hideous. Hideous. But apparently, the lightsaber battle that Luke won, was on Luke's ability. Leia joins with him to defeat Sidious's force attack.

So pointless though. Those are pathetic.

Nope. Didn't you see the line "I already am"?

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
is any one of those warriors worth anything? If not, then we can't really say that killing a lot of them at once is going to be particularly helpful against bane.

Yeah, they are generally considered very good. They usually needed to be outnumbered 2-1 to lose to other forces. Luke was described as a maelstrom of the Force. His blade appeared to be 20 moving at once.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Lumiya's appearances that I know about are all after NJO and all not-very-impressive.

She fought Luke eariler as well. She was using her lightwhip.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I forgot about DE Sidious, mostly because it is eclipsed in my mind by the Caedus plotline. You're still going to have to explain how it translates into a surefire victory against Bane.

Sidious is the most powerful Darksider ever. Luke defeated him.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
And yes. Yes I have. It is not usually a good policy to attack people based on their knowledge of EU instead of their interpretation of it. Please try not to be a jerk in the future.

It wasn't all that pointed of an attack, so chill out man. We're all friends here, sorta beer

Red Nemesis
Yes.

Dr McBeefington
I find it hard to believe that Leia, someone who has never trained in the force, can close her eyes and concentrate to the point of "joining" Luke in somehow disrupting Sidious' ability.

truejedi
Originally posted by Red Nemesis


Nope. Didn't you see the line "I already am"?

I invite you to try to tie that line to the lightsaber duel, that Luke won.

Shoes
Hmm. Explain why he lost the first duel.

truejedi
Originally posted by Shoes
Hmm. Explain why he lost the first duel.

because he was fighting darth sidious? are you being serious with that question?

Shoes
...DUDE!

Did type what I think he did?

truejedi
First: Your last comment is typoed badly enough to be illegible.
Secondly: Lightsaber fights are unpredicable. They don't always go the same way. That's not that hard to figure out.

Shoes
Well, of course lightsaber fights are unpredicable, but I assume this is not your argument, because it has more holes than a danish dam made of swiss cheese. Explain exactly why Luke lost, then won.

Originally posted by truejedi
Those are Hideous. Hideous. But apparently, the lightsaber battle that Luke won, was on Luke's ability. Leia joins with him to defeat Sidious's force attack.

So pointless though. Those are pathetic.

By the same ability, he lost. Not a solid feat.

truejedi
Originally posted by Shoes
Well, of course lightsaber fights are unpredicable, but I assume this is not your argument, because it has more holes than a danish dam made of swiss cheese. Explain exactly why Luke lost, then won.



By the same ability, he lost. Not a solid feat.

If you can't understand that two beings at a certain high level can't have two fights with two different endings, without having different levels of ability for the two fights, you are beyond help.

Why do they play a best of seven series in the NBA? The same team always wins four in a row, right?

Nephthys
Carefull TJ, going down the path of claiming luck will only lead you to pain and disappointment.

truejedi
Originally posted by Nephthys
Carefull TJ, going down the path of claiming luck will only lead you to pain and disappointment.
luck? who claimed luck? I will say there is a certain amount of chance that impacts every fight. However, no amount of chance is going to help someone in a fight who is completely outmatched by another.

Clearly, from the posted comic we see that Luke has the ability to best DE sidious. However, this doesn't meant that sidious DOESN'T possess the ability to best Luke. The accolade we take for luke from that fight is simply that he is on Sidious's level, not that he is superior. Being on Sidious's level is something Bane has never been proven to be.

Shoes
Originally posted by truejedi
If you can't understand that two beings at a certain high level can't have two fights with two different endings, without having different levels of ability for the two fights

Well, I'd prefer you stick to facts. No assumptions.

Prove Luke could have handled the force attack without Leia.
Prove it wasn't PIS.
Prove Luke's force superiority.

Because you suggest Luke is on par with Sidious, in terms of saber combat, and therefore is able to exterminate Bane. Or, would you rather prefer to list some force feats, rivaling Bane's. If you want to ABC, fine. Kas'im, the most technically skilled duelist, was held off by Bane, demonstrating his dueling talents.

truejedi
Originally posted by Shoes
Well, I'd prefer you stick to facts. No assumptions.

Prove Luke could have handled the force attack without Leia.
Prove it wasn't PIS.
Prove Luke's force superiority.

Because you suggest Luke is on par with Sidious, in terms of saber combat, and therefore is able to exterminate Bane. Or, would you rather prefer to list some force feats, rivaling Bane's. If you want to ABC, fine. Kas'im, the most technically skilled duelist, was held off by Bane, demonstrating his dueling talents.

1. I don't have to prove that, since I never claimed it.
2. How the heck was it PIS? Burden of proof goes to the person calling something PIS. They have to show a vast body of evidence that supports the fact that it was anamoly.
3. I really don't have to,as you are the one bringing it up.

Try again. They fought a duel, in which Luke cut off Sidious's hand. They also fought a duel where Luke was disarmed by sidious. This puts them while perhaps not equal, at least SIMILAR footing. That is the only link i needed to use to put Luke on Bane's level, since bane never exhibited anything near the force-profiecieny of DE sidious.

Shoes
Oops. I assumed you considered force power to be a contributing factor in the fight. My bad.

Well, you say that NJO Luke > Bane because of his duel with Sidious. He cut off his arm, true, but this does not demonstrate why Luke would beat Bane. Palpatine's enormous command of the force was not applied in the fight, and that leads me to believe that Luke's "victory", was PIS.

In fact, now that you mention it, it's not a victory at all. Luke couldn't defend himself from Palpatine's storm alone; he needed Leia. They may be even in lightsaber skill, but not in force skill. And again, Bane held his own against Kas'im, whose bladework is far beyond Palpatine's, and by extension, Luke's own. So again, I ask you to prove that Luke > Bane in terms of force power. Don't tell me that just because he overpowered Palpatine in lightsaber combat results in a victory for Luke.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Shoes
Well, I'd prefer you stick to facts. No assumptions.

Prove Luke could have handled the force attack without Leia.
Prove it wasn't PIS.
Prove Luke's force superiority.

Because you suggest Luke is on par with Sidious, in terms of saber combat, and therefore is able to exterminate Bane. Or, would you rather prefer to list some force feats, rivaling Bane's. If you want to ABC, fine. Kas'im, the most technically skilled duelist, was held off by Bane, demonstrating his dueling talents.

You know he has to do NONE of these right?

Shoes
Why not? I mean, either prove the above, or explain why Luke > Bane. Becuase it's not in saber combat.

truejedi
Originally posted by Shoes
Oops. I assumed you considered force power to be a contributing factor in the fight. My bad.

it was your bad.


1. So Sidious fought a lightsaber duel without using the force? BULLSHIT. 2nd. Prove it was PIS, since you are so fond of demanding proof. I'm waiting.



HAHAHAHAHA. Let's quote that again.



Stick a fork in it. You are done.

Also this:


Bane got his ASS handed to him by Kas'im with sabers.



Get back to me when you can come up with a Bane equivalent of manipulating a black hole, and of cloaking an entire FREAKING planet.

The FORCE aspect of this fight has never been in doubt. The only question has been whether Bane's orbalisks will protect him from Luke's sabers long enough to get in a hit on Luke.

Considering Luke has electric judgement, and electricity is the kryptonite for orbalisks....

I'm going to leave you to figure that one out.

Gideon
I'm back.

Well, it looks like the comic scans provide for this particular question. I see two statements, coupled with two other facts, that lead me to conclude that Leia's battle meditation enhanced Luke's ability.

The first quote was already pointed out by Nemesis; when Luke asked Leia to join her power to his, she responded "I already am."

The second quote comes from the narration on the same scan, "As Leia's intensity continues to unlock unexpected resources within Luke"

The first fact has already been pointed out in this thread; Luke fought Palpatine before and was swiftly defeated.

The second fact comes from the Essential Guide to the Force, where the book concludes that Luke realized he "couldn't defeat Palpatine alone."

In other news, it also gives me more ammo for the Force Storm argument! shifty

Shoes

Gideon
Luke certainly has moments where his command of the Force is, well, miles beyond anything demonstrated by Bane. He was, for example, able to overpower UnuThul, an ex-Jedi Knight with access to an unbelievably vast reservoir of Force energy in the form of the Colony. If Denning's prose is to be taken literally, Skywalker was able to root himself in the Force to such an extent that the tractor beams of a Super Star Destroyer or even the supermassive black hole in the center of the galaxy could not move him.

Manipulating a dovin basal is one feat that I've never truly understood. I've been told across forums that he either played tug-o'-war with it and, other times, I've been told he simply manipulated the creature generating it, which is essentially like telekinetically pushing the firing mechanism of a nuclear warhead as opposed to generating the explosion itself.

On the other hand, if Bane has his orbalisks, Luke certainly can bring him down through his green lightning, which was strong enough to instantly kill a Slayer.

Shoes
Again, I was unaware of exactly how powerful Luke is. It annoys me that characters of his magnitude exist.

But why can't Bane simply block it with his lightsaber? He's certainly demonstrated control and technical power. And does this not apply to Luke as well? Bane had perfected his lightning to the point of it being able to kill on contact.

Nephthys
If it was the second one, why is it apparantly so draining (if I'm recalling correctly)? Unless of course they were thousands of miles away at the time, like when Caedus did the same thing, it seems like a pretty simple feat.

Gideon
Shoes
Again, I was unaware of exactly how powerful Luke is.

Hint: he's not nearly as powerful as some would have you believe.

But, if you believe George, he's supposed to be able to become more powerful than Palpatine, which is saying something.

Of course, I realized a while ago that it's statements like these that inexorably lead to disappointment. We get disappointed when Luke struggles with someone like Lumiya because Word of God says he's supposed to be at Level X when, on paper, he functions at Level Y.



He's not the worst.
Palpatine, Nihilus, Bane, Revan, Kas'im, et al. are orders of magnitudes more obnoxious than Luke. Their ridiculous feats are pretty consistent. Luke just has an outlier or two that overwhelms most.



no

Last time I checked, Luke did not generate lightning from his fingertips -- there was no energy being released that had to hit a specific target a la Force lightning or Harry Potter curses or rayguns. He simply gestured, the Slayer began to convulse with green sparks, and he toppled over dead.

Gideon
Nephthys
If it was the second one, why is it apparantly so draining (if I'm recalling correctly)? Unless of course they were thousands of miles away at the time, like when Caedus did the same thing, it seems like a pretty simple feat.

Caedus did the same thing? confused

I'm not sure. I suppose one could make an argument that an organism capable of generating an artificial black hole/gravity well/whatever must be pretty powerful to overwhelm.

I suppose it's more or less me trying to figure out why the hell they didn't use such telekinesis sooner or later if that's what they did .

Ms.Marvel
shut up

Shoes
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20051119151940/starwars/images/3/3c/ElectricJudgement.jpg

Not sure if canon, but there is a stream of energy being released. If you would so kindly find me the quote.

Nephthys
He gets an officer to shut down a planetary reactor or something from orbit. It basically turns him into jelly. This confused me at first becuase according to you guys Vader choked some guy from across the galaxy and Caedus is supposedly on his level. Though telepathy might be innately much more draining than FC I guess....

Gideon
Shoes
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20051119151940/starwars/images/3/3c/ElectricJudgement.jpg

Not sure if canon, but there is a stream of energy being released. If you would so kindly find me the quote.

That's not the same technique, but I'll check it.

Shoes
It was listed on Wookiepedia as Plo Koon using Electric Judgment on a droideka.

Gideon
Shoes
It was listed on Wookiepedia as Plo Koon using Electric Judgment on a droideka.

I'm aware.

But Electric Judgment is not the canonical name of Luke's technique. It was never given a name or replicated by any character.

Nephthys
Sorry, I'm still sort of sore at the whole 'chance' element of feats every since Burning Thought started claiming that obviously someone catching a bullet with their teeth was pure luck when that character is a casual bullet-timer.

Though if Luke wasn't being helped it might have been that he was able to 'centre' himself in the Force like Marek did just before he pwned Vader.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
The first fact has already been pointed out in this thread; Luke fought Palpatine before and was swiftly defeated.
Please define swiftly.


Which meant in an all out battle. Luke knew he couldn't destroy Palpatine without help. This hardly translates to a lightsaber duel.

It's unclear as to how much Leia has helped and again, she was untrained.

Gideon
The fact that she helped out at all means that Luke cannot be factually said to have defeated Palpatine on his own.

And I don't know about you, but defeat means defeat. No qualifier given.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
The fact that she helped out at all means that Luke cannot be factually said to have defeated Palpatine on his own.

And I don't know about you, but defeat means defeat. No qualifier given.

That's reaching and you know it Gideon. It can also mean "can't defeat in an all out fight" or "can't defeat in a force battle, or "can't defeat in beer pong."

Gideon
It sure can.

But one can examine the context of the sentence or the surrounding paragraph to rule out things like beer pong or arm wrestling.

Luke surrendered himself to eliminate the threat Palpatine posed to the New Republic; Luke is well aware that the only real way that that's going to happen is if Palpatine is dead.

So "defeat" clearly refers to a physical altercation or conflict of some kind. All out, Force-only, or saber-only. It does not say nor does it suggest a particular avenue.

Shoes
Please. The comic clearly states it was Leia who unlocked hidden resources buried within Luke. Without her, Luke would have perished then and there.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
It sure can.

But one can examine the context of the sentence or the surrounding paragraph to rule out things like beer pong or arm wrestling.

Luke surrendered himself to eliminate the threat Palpatine posed to the New Republic; Luke is well aware that the only real way that that's going to happen is if Palpatine is dead.

So "defeat" clearly refers to a physical altercation or conflict of some kind. All out, Force-only, or saber-only. It does not say nor does it suggest a particular avenue.

Nor does it rule out that Luke can defeat him in a particular venue. It certainly doesn't mean "Luke can't defeat him in any way, shape, or form."

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Shoes
Please. The comic clearly states it was Leia who unlocked hidden resources buried within Luke. Without her, Luke would have perished then and there.

My bad. Now THAT's reaching.

Gideon
You applied the term "reaching" to my contention and I'll now take the time to explain to you how the only one reaching here is you.

We have before us four pieces of evidence that support the idea that Luke's defeat of Palpatine is sketchy at best.



That's four.

Reaching is when someone makes a contention or a claim without anything to support it. Do you have any evidence to support the idea that Luke could beat Palpatine in anything related to combat on his own?

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
You applied the term "reaching" to my contention and I'll now take the time to explain to you how the only one reaching here is you.

We have before us four pieces of evidence that support the idea that Luke's defeat of Palpatine is sketchy at best.



That's four.

Reaching is when someone makes a contention or a claim without anything to support it. Do you have any evidence to support the idea that Luke could beat Palpatine in anything related to combat on his own?

No, I didn't ever say he could either. However, it was you who said "defeat is defeat", and virtually applied the term universally.

Also

This is still reachingsmile

Gideon
I said defeat means defeat. Since "defeat," in this instance, clearly refers to Luke being in a position to end Palpatine's life, yes, I applied the quote in such a way that precludes any victory on Luke's end without assistance.

And I am not responsible for Shoes and his words.

Shoes
@Gideon

Do you have any idea why Palpatine lost the second lightsaber duel?

@Beef

Enough. You are reaching. Can you disprove this?

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Shoes
@Beef

Enough. You are reaching. Can you disprove this?

It's clear that you don't know the laws of debate, otherwise you wouldn't be asking me or TJ to prove negatives.. Furthermore, Sidious eventually defeated Luke in their initial light saber duel. Luke was without Leia at the time. Please explain how Luke would have perished without her..

mattatom
Originally posted by Gideon
I'm aware.

But Electric Judgment is not the canonical name of Luke's technique. It was never given a name or replicated by any character. I thought it just counted as 'Emerald Lightning'? Or did i make that up?

Shoes
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Sidious eventually defeated Luke in their initial light saber duel. Luke was without Leia at the time. Please explain how Luke would have perished without her..


I have no response to this. Use your head.

Gideon
I have anthe idea, the idea that the comic and other sources provide: Luke's abilities were augmented/enhanced/improved by Leia's battle meditation during the second duel with Palpatine, whereas before she was not present.

Left to their own relative skills, Luke clearly hadn't accumulated the power or technique necessary to challenge the Emperor in any specific arena.



I've heard that expression as well, but it's simply a unattested colloquialism.



WTF

Shoes is saying that without Leia's presence and involvement, Luke would have died the second time he fought Palpatine.

Shoes
Originally posted by Gideon
Leia's battle meditation during the second duel with Palpatine,

Hmm. I don't see any evidence of Battle Meditation, if that is what she was doing. She seems to be glowing in one of the panels, but that's all. Are there any sources confirming this?

And would someone be so kind as to provide the page number on which Luke executed his variant of Electric Judgment?

Gideon
Shoes
Hmm. I don't see any evidence of Battle Meditation, if that is what she was doing. She seems to be glowing in one of the panels, but that's all. Are there any sources confirming this?

She demonstrates proficiency in battle meditation in Dark Empire II, if I recall correctly. But you're right: there is no indication that she was specifically using battle meditation in Luke's duel with Palpatine, so I withdraw that.

A more appropriate designation would be that Leia was doing something that bolstered Luke's performance. Be it battle meditation, the Force harmony technique that they would later use to defeat the Emperor's Force Storm, or some other variant.



I'm on campus and I don't have my copy of TUF on me, so someone else will have to do so.

EID
As if it hadn't been established about a gazillion times already...

The orbalisks are only "weak" to electricity in the sense that electricity is the only thing that has been established to be able to possibly damage them. However they are not "weak" to them in the sense that they are more vulnerable to its effects than say, the unprotected human skin or any battle armour that characters that typically partake in these threads will be equipped with.

In fact, the opposite would be the case, as they were still capable of absorbing hundreds of thousands of volts of electricity when they received a direct hit from a force pike and Bane's defences weren't up. So they're actually especially resistant to the effects of electricity, not vulnerable.

...Which is why it boggles the mind when people think Bane is somehow more vulnerable to the effects of Force Lightning than anybody else out there. There is literally zero reason to believe this.

Dr McBeefington
No noobaris

Hewhoknowsall
What "noobaris" said actually makes sense you know, provided that he is telling the truth.

Nephthys
@HWKA- In this forum Neb is automatically wrong. Even when he is right. The words 'sock' and '100 bans' seem to hae something to do with this. This is of course contrary to the VG forum where he actually is wrong in every post.

@Neb- Well the thing Neb, is that the problem with the Orbalisks is that they excrete a deadly poison when they die, as you know. Of course Bane learned the powa to nullify basically every poison in book 1 so that has pretty much no bearing at all. So yeah.... The idea that he goes down at the mention of lightning is complete bollocks really. Kind of like Vader really. Also, yes DS, everything he wrote was fact. You not liking him doesn't change that.

Red Nemesis
Surely he's broken a hundred by now...

EID
Originally posted by Nephthys
This is of course contrary to the VG forum where he actually is wrong in every post.

laughing out loud laughing out loud

Nephthys
Oh, its at least over 8999 by now.

Originally posted by EID
laughing out loud laughing out loud

stick out tongue

truejedi
I'll just do a blanket post, cause i'm not replying to 2 pages.

Shoes: Sorry my man, you took the high road, so i would like to apologize for the tone earlier. And I misunderstood the comment you were making about Sidious and Kas'sim. However, I do think there is enough evidence OUTSIDE of the DE sidious fight to establish Luke as a more powerful combatant than Bane. (see Unifying Force, fight with Nyax, )


Gideon: We are talking NJO luke, so you can throw out the Raynar Thul, and the "black hole at center of galaxy couldn't move him" quotes. FOTJ is making Luke look extremely human. (I've almost finished Backslash)
I would actually agree that it makes sense for Luke to be unable to handle sidious as of DE, all of that happened even BEFORE the events of the Jedi Academy series, right? However, all we have are a few comic panels, so everything that happens in them is up for debate and interpretation.


Star Wars just isn't consistent enough.
Was it Outbound Flight where Luke AND Mara almost couldn't take down a SINGLE destroyer droid?
THAT was the single most out of the power structure moment in the mythos. What was to stop Luke from simply picking it up and crushing it with the force? But no. They fought it for many pages.

Gideon
k

Dr McBeefington
Why don't we just chalk it up to PIS/CIS and assume Luke is the most powerful force user in the history of star wars. Otherwise, Georgie wouldn't have named his ranch after our herosmile

Gideon
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Why don't we just chalk it up to PIS/CIS and assume Luke is the most powerful force user in the history of star wars. Otherwise, Georgie wouldn't have named his ranch after our herosmile

no

Skywalker is one of the very main characters, not necessarily the strongest.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
no

Skywalker is one of the very main characters, not necessarily the strongest.

I think we all know George's intention with Luke's superiority. The man is a genius and innovator. He's just a god awful writer.

Gideon
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I think we all know George's intention with Luke's superiority.

Jesus H. Christ.

Do we? Do we really?

Do you know what I see, when I read the word "intent" regarding Luke's power?

This is what I see. I see the Empire Strikes Back; Palpatine: "the Force is strong with him," not "the Force is the strongest with him evar!!1! OMG i'm shittin my cloak!!1!"

I hear Vader tell Luke he can destroy the Emperor.

Then I watch Return of the Jedi, with Luke I-Can-Destroy-the-Emperor Skywalker getting destroyed by the Emperor. And then I see the Emperor die. Via Vader.

Do you want to know how Luke Skywalker destroyed the Emperor? Through Vader.

That, to me, is intent. Because that is what we saw. I get Anakin being the most powerful or potentially most powerful ever. But nowhere was that ever said to be Lucas's intent for Luke.

truejedi
that's the thing: LOTF turned luke into a godlike character (aided by DN and by NJO).

What FOTJ is doing to him is simply inconsistent.

So really, pick your own version of Luke. Mine has him as the most powerful figure in the mythos, and pointing at his positives makes it true.

Gideon wants sidious to be the most powerful figure in the mythos, so he points at Luke's NEGATIVE's, which does make Sidious seem more powerful than Luke.

That's fine. That's fiction. That's what its all about.

Gideon
truejedi
that's the thing: LOTF turned luke into a godlike character (aided by DN and by NJO).

What FOTJ is doing to him is simply inconsistent.

So really, pick your own version of Luke. Mine has him as the most powerful figure in the mythos, and pointing at his positives makes it true.

Gideon wants sidious to be the most powerful figure in the mythos, so he points at Luke's NEGATIVE's, which does make Sidious seem more powerful than Luke.

That's fine. That's fiction. That's what its all about.

Oh, geez lol. Please don't waste your time speculating as to my intent or my thoughts on this particular matter.

I've made it plain: I don't think there should be any accolade for a character other than Anakin's potential. Palpatine, Luke, Ragnos, Nihilus, Bane, Yoda? The extent of their power should be left somewhat ambiguous.

Because once you put a cap or a ceiling or a foundation for a character's power, i.e. Character X is the greatest duelist ever, you set yourself up for cliche and drivel.

The fact that I argue Palpatine is the most powerful Force user ever has nothing to do with my own preference.

Edit: Explain to me what in LotF turned Luke into a godlike character. Was it nearly dying at Lumiya's hands the first time, or struggling with her the second and third time? Or was it not killing his nephew even high on battle rage?

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
Jesus H. Christ.

Do we? Do we really?

Do you know what I see, when I read the word "intent" regarding Luke's power?

This is what I see. I see the Empire Strikes Back; Palpatine: "the Force is strong with him," not "the Force is the strongest with him evar!!1! OMG i'm shittin my cloak!!1!"

I hear Vader tell Luke he can destroy the Emperor.

Then I watch Return of the Jedi, with Luke I-Can-Destroy-the-Emperor Skywalker getting destroyed by the Emperor. And then I see the Emperor die. Via Vader.

Do you want to know how Luke Skywalker destroyed the Emperor? Through Vader.

That, to me, is intent. Because that is what we saw. I get Anakin being the most powerful or potentially most powerful ever. But nowhere was that ever said to be Lucas's intent for Luke.

You mean besides Luke supposed to be more powerful than the Emperor, who is more powerful than anybody else in the mythos?

Gideon
Dr McBeefington
You mean besides Luke supposed to be more powerful than the Emperor, who is more powerful than anybody else in the mythos?

confused

I'm not sure KMC has a function that makes the font big enough for you to read, since you're obviously vision impaired.

/sarcasm

Did you not read what I wrote? If it was clearly George's intent, then it must be manifest in the movies.

I challenge you to point out a single quote that says Luke had the potential to be more powerful than the Emperor.

truejedi
Originally posted by Gideon


The fact that I argue Palpatine is the most powerful Force user ever has nothing to do with my own preference.

It does, however, have everything to do with your interpretation of events. Drop the preference then, and just use the word interpretation, and my post is still there.



See, this proves my point exactly. Instead of actually pointing at his highlights, you pointed at his lowlights of the series instead. If you were actually seeking a serious answer, you would have given the highlights of the series, and asked if THAT was what I meant. You actually proved my first post to be true with this edit(minus the word preference), so thanks.

To continue to prove my first post true: I'll list his more notable accolades of the series:

1. He created an entire fleet that fooled a high-level Sith Lord into acting like a fool in front of his men.
2. Held that same Sith Lord captive in his chair for an entire conversation unable to move a muscle. Where has anything like that EVER been done to a character of ANY power in the history of the mythos?
3. Used the force to physically appear on-board Caedus's flagship and assist Jaina in a duel with Caedus before vanishing without a trace. Caedus never figured that out before his death. Luke can now apparently be in two places at once.
4. Defeated Lumiya fairly effortlessly in his second duel with her.
5. Managed to vanish off of an exploded Stealth-X, then reappear onboard the Anakin Solo. He either survived the vaccum of space, or physically removed himself, with the force, from the cockpit.
6. Held his stealth-x together with the use of the force in order to put it through impossible maneuvers.
7. Manipulated Caedus's visions of the future to see what Luke wanted him to see.

Hopefully you will get my point. YOu could have thought I was talking about any of these things, instead, you ask what I suppose you thought was a clever question? One that points out Luke's LOWPOINTS from the series instead of any of the things I would have obviously been referring to.

Gideon
Oh God. Should we go through each and every one of those feats? Do you really want to?

Because no one denies that many of them are impressive. But you used the adjective "godlike."

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
confused

I'm not sure KMC has a function that makes the font big enough for you to read, since you're obviously vision impaired.

/sarcasm

Did you not read what I wrote? If it was clearly George's intent, then it must be manifest in the movies.

I challenge you to point out a single quote that says Luke had the potential to be more powerful than the Emperor.

http://www.starwars.com/episode-iii/release/publicity/news20050104.html

I'll try and find the word for word interview so you can quit bitching. I didn't know those freshman liberal arts classes are having a negative effect on your personality.

Gideon
DS
http://www.starwars.com/episode-iii/release/publicity/news20050104.html

I'll try and find the word for word interview so you can quit bitching. I didn't know those freshman liberal arts classes are having a negative effect on your personality.

?



...Unless the interview with Vanity Fair appeared in one of the six episodes, it's irrelevant.

I'm not talking about what Lucas says now, which changes all the damn time, I'm asking what his original intent was. His canon intent.

Edit: And then you can explain to me how it's a detriment that I demand proof for your claims.

truejedi
Originally posted by Gideon
Oh God. Should we go through each and every one of those feats? Do you really want to?

Because no one denies that many of them are impressive. But you used the adjective "godlike."




I said together with DN and NJO. Put those things together, and you have a character that is using the force on a consistently ridiculous level.

Take them apart and treat them each as an isolated event, and you might be able to put together a case, but that would be taking things out of context, and you won't do that.

Dr McBeefington
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/the_cult_of_darth_vader/page/2

Dr McBeefington
I don't think you get to dictate what and when Lucas' intent was. This was his intent when he wrote the movies, so I don't know why you have to make up things like "original intent", implying it somehow changed... Seriously, cut out the rationalizations. You're worse than an Obama supporter.

truejedi
From Beefy's link:

That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe

truejedi
What Lucas says, regardless of when he says it, has always been indisputably canon.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by truejedi
From Beefy's link:

That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe

According to Gideon's "I'm on the rag" logic, it's not in the movie so it's not his original intent, and therefore it is moot.

Gideon
TJ
Is Oh God your new catchphrase?

It's copyrighted.



You and I must operate under different definitions of consistent. Maybe you'd have a point if we shortened each series by four to six books and put all of the ones in which he does uber things.



Well, taking things apart is sort've what we do when we analyze something.

But I know, I know. I shouldn't let little things like details or context affect my judgment.

It's not "Luke, Jaina, and Jacen slayed an army of Vong due to a Jedi battle meld."

Instead, it's "Luke, Jaina, and Jacenslayed an army of Vongdue to a Jedi battle meldbecause he's awesome!"

Gideon
Lucas had complete dominion over what did and did not appear in the movies. This is what the movies show:

The Emperor: "The Force is strong in him."

(Not "the Force is overwhelmingly awesome in him he's more powerful than EVERYBODY EVAR!!1!"wink

The Emperor: "He could destroy us."

(Not "He could kick my ass!"wink

Darth Vader: "Luke, you can destroy the Emperor; he has forseen this!"

(Not "You can kick his ass!"wink

As a matter of fact, the movies depict the Emperor tooling Luke 1v1. Luke did destroy the Emperor and Vader: through compassion, not power.

That was his power.



Is that in the canon structure?

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
Lucas had complete dominion over what did and did not appear in the movies. This is what the movies show:

The Emperor: "The Force is strong in him."

(Not "the Force is overwhelmingly awesome in him he's more powerful than EVERYBODY EVAR!!1!"wink

The Emperor: "He could destroy us."

(Not "He could kick my ass!"wink

Darth Vader: "Luke, you can destroy the Emperor; he has forseen this!"

(Not "You can kick his ass!"wink

As a matter of fact, the movies depict the Emperor tooling Luke 1v1. Luke did destroy the Emperor and Vader: through compassion, not power.

That was his power.



Is that in the canon structure?

And yet again, you do not get to dictate what Lucas meant and how badly he portrayed it or what is canon and what is "original". So once again, I point to:


That was his intent for the movies and he said it. It's canon, deal with it.

I find it funny though that when discussing the DE comics, you simply avoided further discussion by stating "defeat is defeat". But in this situation, you have a case of the "nuh uhs", and attempt to break everything down.

truejedi
Its an old argument, but you have never been able to quantify how much the battle-meld helped Luke when he took on 4 of the slayers while Jacen and Jaina took on 2 each. Or in his fight with Shimmrra in which Shimra controlled the gravity in the room.

But THAT isn't the fight that made Luke Uber. (well, the lightning thing kinda did, added anyway)

Luke's darkhole manipulation and planet cloaking is what comes out of that series on top.

His fight versus Thul, and then his "unable to be moved by black-hole in center of the galaxy" were his top feats in DN.


I'll say this: in my mind, Sidious was also godlike in his force exploits.

However, at the end of the day, he wasn't skilled enough in the force to avoid being thrown down a freaking ventilation shaft.

You DO always refer to Luke's low-points, as though they somehow DAMAGE his more powerful moments.


You seem to think that godlike MUST include infallibility, but I disagree. I dont' think one has to prove himself again to be godlike in every possible situation.

Sidious for example, isn't diminshed in mind because of his rather ignamonious ending. He is still godlike, despite his lowpoint of falling down a ventilation shaft.

Gideon

truejedi
Gideon, you are ignoring that something is canon UNLESS it directly contradicts the films. While you are saying "Show me from the films where luke was meant to be more powerful," You should instead be showing us where it says he ISN'T, and WON'T be. Lucas said later he was, and that doesn't directly contradict the movie. Thus its canon.

You argument against it as canon sounds a lot like the "Novel's aren't canon cause you don't see that stuff onscreen" crowd.

Gideon
TJ
Its an old argument, but you have never been able to quantify how much the battle-meld helped Luke when he took on 4 of the slayers while Jacen and Jaina took on 2 each. Or in his fight with Shimmrra in which Shimra controlled the gravity in the room.

I didn't say it effected his duel with Shimrra. Nor do I have to prove a damn thing about the extent of the battlemeld on Luke's performance.

The fact that he had any help at all means that he cannot be said to have performed those extraordinary feats unaided.



Merely an example of how details and context significantly alter a fact.



His manipulation of the dovin basal has yet to be explained or investigated, as I asked everyone repeatedly to do.



Even if that wasn't exaggeration, it brings us right back to consistency. Where is that awesome power everywhere else?



...Can you name other lowpoints for Sidious in particular? I've offered dozens for Luke.

Wouldn't the very definition of godlike include infallibility?

Dr McBeefington

truejedi
Originally posted by Gideon




"Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays." per Sue Rostini, Lucas Licensing's chief editor.



You yourself gave me the quote earlier saying anything that comes from Lucas or Lucas Arts is canon unless it directly contradicts anything else. Your post here doesn't contradict that.

Gideon
truejedi
Gideon, you are ignoring that something is canon UNLESS it directly contradicts the films. While you are saying "Show me from the films where luke was meant to be more powerful," You should instead be showing us where it says he ISN'T, and WON'T be. Lucas said later he was, and that doesn't directly contradict the movie. Thus its canon.

You argument against it as canon sounds a lot like the "Novel's aren't canon cause you don't see that stuff onscreen" crowd.

That's just it, you see. Formal canon structure does not take into account George Lucas's particular words. Otherwise, why would we have post-Endor Sith? Or Dark Empire. Or Mara Jade.

His opinion only extends so far.

There is nothing in the movies or subsequent EU that says that Luke Skywalker is more powerful than the Emperor or the most powerful Force user ever, is there?

Gideon
DS
Hmmm.. Raise me... Lucas' words>all. If he interprets the films based on the logic he used in those interviews, I can totally see it although it's not very well defined. Now unless you have proof that Lucas "periodically changed his mind" regarding this issue, I consider the matter closed. I'm going to sleep but I expect your next post to undoubtedly consist of insult, sarcasm, insult, insult, sarcasm, questioning my sexual orientation, etc.

No need, I've already won this round.

Contrary to what Ushgarak says, it was made painfully evident at TFN that George Lucas's words are not official canon.

So with that in mind:

1.) Give me proof that Lucas's words > all. Where is that reflected in the formal canon structure?

Or,

2.) Give me proof that Lucas's intent for Luke's power was reflected clearly and appropriately in his six canon movies.

If you fail to address or concede either of those, it's back to ignore you go.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
No need, I've already won this round.
Sure you did.


Have you lost your mind lol?



Translation: I'm going back on my contention that Lucas' words are Canon because that means I've exposed myself as NOT being objective. As a result, I'll declare myself a winner and claim "ignore", as to shorten the discussion I've already lost.
Gotchasmile

I'll raise you. Give me proof that someone other than Lucas has more precedent in deciding what's canon. As far as Star WArs is concerned, Lucas' word=it. Then you can show me proof of how George Lucas' original intent differs from his interview. I don't even know why this is a discussion, as you've lost your mind. Here's my advice..

http://www.monettoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/midol.jpg

Gideon
?

I send you a link with the official canon structure; Lucas's opinions aren't on the list. This you ignore

I send you examples of things (Dark Empire, post-Endor Sith, Luke getting married) that Lucas has specifically said does not happen in the Star Wars universe, but happen in the EU, and this you ignore.

And then you ask me to prove that Lucas's words are not canon?

I just did.

And I thought you were going to bed.

Might as well. Back to ignore you go, DS!

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
?

I send you a link with the official canon structure; Lucas's opinions aren't on the list. This you ignore

I send you examples of things (Dark Empire, post-Endor Sith, Luke getting married) that Lucas has specifically said does not happen in the Star Wars universe, but happen in the EU, and this you ignore.

And then you ask me to prove that Lucas's words are not canon?

I just did.

And I thought you were going to bed.

Might as well. Back to ignore you go, DS!



I didn't expect Gideon to argue George Lucas' vision for the original trilogy. THAT is hilarious, thanks for the laugh Gideon. I don't need to put you on ignore because you've clearly lost your mind smile

http://www.canonwars.com/SWCanon2.html#III-Canon

On another note, I found a like completely explaining Gideon's behavior.

http://www.canonwars.com/weblog/2009/09/george-lucas-on-matters-of-production.html

truejedi
Originally posted by Gideon
I didn't say it effected his duel with Shimrra. Nor do I have to prove a damn thing about the extent of the battlemeld on Luke's performance.

The fact that he had any help at all means that he cannot be said to have performed those extraordinary feats unaided.

Of course you don't HAVE to. That's not the nature of the discussion. It would be interesting is all.



This phrase should be profiled. Our entire forum is built on this phrase.



It has yet to be explained? Meaning you don't think he did what the books says he did? I'll explain it. He used the force to create a telekinetic pull powerful enough to move a BLACK HOLE. Maybe you haven't gotten an explanation because its explained in the text.



I've given numerous examples of that power manifesting itself. Simply because it doesn't in certain situations doesn't mean its not there. There are enough examples of him using the force on a very high level that you can't simply dismiss it as an aberration.
in backslash he pins himself to the side of a cliff with the force during a force-induced hurricane., and then 5 minutes later can't push away the force lightning of a Nightsister. its maddingly inconsistent, but there is no denying the power is there.


There are how many books written where Luke is the main character? Any count of flaws is going to obviously be lopsided.

However, Sidious lost to Mace. In a one-on-one, all other things equal duel. When has that happened with Luke in the last few series? Mace isn't a chump, but Sidious didn't just struggle with him, like you like to point out Luke doing, he lost.

He took long enough to overcome starkiller that the entire Rebel Alliance escaped on a small ship. Once again, not horrible, but a mistake. And he is still godlike.

He did lose to the skywalkers IN HIS PRIME (say it was a team effort if you want) one completely untrained individual, and one Jedi with less than 10 years of training. Is that better than Luke taking a few moments to dispatch Rhea and Vestera? in backslash, Luke says that Rhea was at the level of a FOTJ Jedi Master, and Vestera is at the level of a FOTJ Jedi Knight, so they weren't chumps.




Obviously not? almost every Greek and Roman god had a flaw. Almost every God in history for any civilization has had flaws. Besides, it depends on how far exactly you want to take the poetic license of: godlike anyway. Its obviously a literary term.

Dr McBeefington
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon#George_Lucas_and_Star_Wars_canon

truejedi
That should answer that.

Gideon
See, I don't consider losing a duel with the mighty Mace Windu or beating Starkiller lowpoints.

But there's a fundamental reason why: I don't claim that Palpatine is godlike.

You give Luke that standard and fail to meet it every single time.

truejedi
Originally posted by Gideon
See, I don't consider losing a duel with the mighty Mace Windu or beating Starkiller lowpoints.

But there's a fundamental reason why: I don't claim that Palpatine is godlike.

You give Luke that standard and fail to meet it every single time.

You failed to address 90% of my post.

Gideon
truejedi
That should answer that.

Now that I'll accept.

Dr McBeefington
This is what happens when I give you a link and you don't read it Gideon. I'll accept your concession and apologysmile

Gideon
truejedi
You failed to address 90% of my post.

Because I have elsewhere.

Several of us, Glentract included, can't make heads nor tails of the black hole feat, which is why I asked someone more scientifically inclined to explained what Luke did.

truejedi
Originally posted by Gideon
See, I don't consider losing a duel with the mighty Mace Windu or beating Starkiller lowpoints.

But there's a fundamental reason why: I don't claim that Palpatine is godlike.

You give Luke that standard and fail to meet it every single time.

You didn't address DE sidious losing to almost untrained skywalkers. Yet you want to call it a lowpoint for Luke when he takes a few minutes to kill someone who is at the level of Jedi Master, when also fighting a Jedi Knight. though it was the skywalkers, their low level of training makes that a pretty low point for sidious.

And by godlike: I mean in relation to other force-users, not in referring to actual meta-physical beings.

And what is so hard to understand about the black hole feat? It is very clearly explained, he used the force to tug on the black hole, which moved it out of the way of a missile. I think the word "tug" is even used in the text. What is it that doesn't make sense?

Gideon
truejedi
You didn't address DE sidious losing to almost untrained skywalkers.

Because the technique clearly hadn't much to do with skill as it did power. Otherwise, the unborn Anakin Solo's involvement would have been irrelevant, as would Leia's. There is a distinction between the two terms.

Not to mention the scan makes it abundantly clear that Palpatine was caught off guard and not overpowered, but was merely separated from his power.

In Luke's own words, "'s conquered himself!"

They didn't beat... anyone.



...Palpatine massacred three of the Jedi Order's finest while simultaneously fighting Mace Windu.

I guess I have high standards?



But... he's not.



Get Nemesis and/or Nai to examine the passage and I'll take their assessment of it.

truejedi
Originally posted by Gideon



Get Nemesis and/or Nai to examine the passage and I'll take their assessment of it.
very simple question: why would i do that? their assesment, whatever it is, isnt going to trump the text, which is self-explanatory.

Gideon
truejedi
very simple question: why would i do that? their assesment, whatever it is, isnt going to trump the text, which is self-explanatory.

...Because I don't understand nor am I inclined to take a physics lesson as to how much effort it takes to move a black hole, adjust it, outwit it, or manipulate it?

Or, better yet, since it's your point and you clearly understand every facet of it, why don't you explain it to me?

Autokrat
The black hole, even if it was a small one generated by the ship, would have at least a mass in magnitudes greater than that of Earth. Consider that Earth if it was turned into a singularity would be mere centimeters in size and then think about a what a Dovin Basal does, absorbing weapons fire. That is an incredible about of mass.

Q99
I'd hardly call Luke untrained at that point anyway. Skywalkers have, for whatever reason, always picked up skills fast and DE was years after he reached a level to fight with Vader. All that fighting with the Empire no doubt helped sharpen his skills further, and Palpatine helped train yet more.

And in simple raw amount of force power, Skywalkers are always pretty up there. With Leia and Anakin just adding raw omph and Luke actually directing it, I don't think many/any sith could do well there.

Gideon
Autokrat
The black hole, even if it was a small one generated by the ship, would have at least a mass in magnitudes greater than that of Earth. Consider that Earth if it was turned into a singularity would be mere centimeters in size and then think about a what a Dovin Basal does, absorbing weapons fire. That is an incredible about of mass.

I see.

TJ, this:

"During the Battle of Dantooine of the Yuuzhan Vong War, Luke tricked a vehicle's dovin basals into colliding its own black hole against itself by using the Force to hold the void against the pull of the dovin basals; then reversing the direction of his own pull, adding it to the pull of the dovin basals, so that the void would collide against the spine of the vehicle" (per Wookieepedia)

...Does not match your account of what happened. Which is pretty much why I want someone scientifically inclined to explain the situation.

Gideon
All right, I'm hitting the hay. We'll continue this later this week.

Nephthys
I can think of two off the top of my head from DE. The first one was in the comic posted where he gets his ass zapped by a baby edit: Actually it looks like he was zapped by Leia. And secondly he gets Judo thrown by Leia and she pick-pocketed the Holocron off him.. Both of which seem a complete surprise to him, which kinda make his precog skills seem lame.

Eminence
Gideon
I see.

TJ, this:

"During the Battle of Dantooine of the Yuuzhan Vong War, Luke tricked a vehicle's dovin basals into colliding its own black hole against itself by using the Force to hold the void against the pull of the dovin basals; then reversing the direction of his own pull, adding it to the pull of the dovin basals, so that the void would collide against the spine of the vehicle" (per Wookieepedia)That would be correct. I've posted the entire sequence at least twice; what more do you want elaborated upon?

Dr McBeefington
I still can't believe one would argue the validity of Lucas' statements in regards to canon.

EID
That's an interesting one actually. Perhaps in this case Lucas really is a canon authority but why exactly should he be? Who cares what the storyteller has to say when it's not included within the story he's telling?

Dr McBeefington
I'm completely shocked that out of anyone with vast SW knowledge, it would be Gideon who questions and disputes Lucas' authority in the realm of canon. I used to think he was objective but this kind of nit picking proves otherwise.

I'm not sure why anyone with any common sense would dispute Lucas' words, it makes no sense at all.. But as evidenced by this common rationalization:

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Autokrat
The black hole, even if it was a small one generated by the ship, would have at least a mass in magnitudes greater than that of Earth. Consider that Earth if it was turned into a singularity would be mere centimeters in size and then think about a what a Dovin Basal does, absorbing weapons fire. That is an incredible about of mass.

This isn't entirely accurate (I think).

Specifically, the wiki claims that "in principle, a black hole can have any mass above the Planck mass." This would suggest that Luke was doing no more work than moving a compressed pair of protons around, with the strain being from focusing/manipulating such a small point. Grip a pencil very hard and write as small as you can and you will understand this effect.

The point to this is that, based on what we've seen from the Dovin Basals, there cannot be a stellar body-level of gravitational pull from the black holes produced. It is simply not possible given the effects we've seen. (The descriptions of fights near or above planets are notably silent on the ecological devastation wrought by the massive tidal forces brought to bear by such objects.) The dovin basals most likely produce incredibly small black holes. To accomplish their locomotion (or defense) it is likely that the gravitational energy is directed in some way-- dovin basals producing black holes trying to travel in opposite directions would otherwise cancel each others' gravitational pull.

This feat is no nearly as clear-cut as some people would like to make it. It represents a fundamental shift away from real world physics (as I understand them, at least) that means we cannot simply default the feat to "IMPRESSIVE HAXZOR WIN" but must rather examine it more closely.

Autokrat
I'm guessing that whoever wrote the book wasn't really concerned how the logical consequences of having vessels that could generate black holes, even small ones.

If it isn't a black hole, then should it be treated as some unknown phenomenon that the denizens of SW just happen to call black holes?

Hewhoknowsall
What if Luke got the Orbalisks?

dun dun dun dun

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
What if Luke got the Orbalisks?

dun dun dun dun

http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/6515/original/jesus-facepalm-facepalm-jesus-epic-demotivational-poster-1218659828.jpg

Borbarad
Originally posted by Gideon
Get Nemesis and/or Nai to examine the passage and I'll take their assessment of it.

Wonder how you're going to do that, given that - last time I checked - you had me on ignore in this realms here... wink

But anyway...
Since I don't have the exact passage here, I will have to go by memories. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

a)
The dovin basal "black holes" have been shown to "absorb" enemy weapon fire. And it has been explained, that this happens via a gravitational field similar to a black hole.

b)
Luke did manage to manipulate the force to counter and even overpower that gravitational pull.

Right so far?
Now. Technically Nemesis is right. A black hole can be a very small phenomenon, which was a reason for critics to attack the experiments scientist wanted to do (and meanwhile did) using the Large Hadron Colider. But, as the Wiki also rightly claims, such miniature black holes would instantly disappear.

However. If we assume that the dovin basal phenomenon is caused by miniature black holes, the energy Luke used could be as low as 1 TeV, which equals the kinetic energy of a flying mosquito. Hard to imagine that working against that kind of force would cause any exhaustion in Luke.

However. It's quite unlikely that dovin basals only create that small bit of a gravitational pull, provided that the tactic known as "Yo'gand's Core" is based upon pulling a moon out of orbit using a single dovin basal.

Considering that fact, one might have a look at this little page here. 3.8E28 J of energy to reproduce that feat, which is an "oversimplified" and "low" estimation. Just for comparison: The same amount of energy is produced by our sun in 10 seconds. So simply imagine that Luke could exert more actual energy than a sun. One could also imagine that Luke could force push / pull a moon out of orbit, if that can be better imagined. Is that enough to qualify as "godlike"?

However. One should be careful when attempting to measure some fancy metaphysical energy field with RL terms. Meaning that this estimation could be totally wrong considering the fictional nature of the force. wink

Gideon
Accepted.

Eminence
You don't think it's possible that the dovin basal Luke grappled with didn't generate the kind of black hole used to pull planetary bodies together? The voids created by different dovin basals, if I recall correctly, vary in size and strength. I doubt the dovin basals that propel starfighters could tear a moon out of orbit.

If anyone here understands how dovin basals actually work, feel free to step in. I'm assuming that the gravitational field created by the dovin basal at a point in local space is tethered to it by other field(s?) of equal or greater strength, which is also the only way I can immediately rationalize your idea of Luke "overriding" the void's pull; it'd be via proxy, as he's overriding a equal or greater force relative to that of the void being manipulated.

Red Nemesis
Nai, I'm going to have to disagree with the direction you've taken with your analysis.

As Faunus noted, the strength of the various Dovin Basals' singularities varies greatly. In fact, if they did not then the basals themselves would be largely unusable as transportation mechanisms. The force of gravity varies with the inverse of the square of the distance, meaning that each singularity would have to be placed with much, much more accuracy than they appear to be. The basals would also have to have a much longer "casting range" under this system.


Nai takes two things as given:

The second is dubious, even if we allow for the fact that it is a vaguely remembered detail from a poorly written book. Gideon pulled the Wookiee's description, so we'll use that:

This indicates that Luke wasn't overcoming the (yet undefined) mass of a black hole alone. Rather, Luke was overcoming the manipulation of a Dovin Basal on a black hole. The difference here is staggering. Luke would, in the first case, have to overcome the inertia of a (presumably) very massive object. That assumption is, I believe, behind the awe given to this particular feat. However, the actual mechanism may have been very different. I am aware that this isn't the source material, but I have no reason to believe it is inaccurate.

The description given indicates that Luke simply canceled out (or even just muted) the controlling basal had over the black hole in question. Unless you want to argue that each ship-sized Basal is capable of putting out energy on the scale of a star it is incredibly likely that some specialized mechanism is behind the manipulation of singularities for maneuvering. This force is all that Luke would have to match. This scenario allows us to avoid a Stellar-Luke (which is not likely in given his other showings) and remain in canon. Luke would only have to match the applied force enough to get the Basal to overcompensate. Then his job is done for him, and down it goes.

In this way it becomes clear that Luke does not necessarily exceed the Sun in energy output (which is an idea I simply refuse to consider). This conclusion is upheld when we consider the variation between the singularities we've seen generated. Some Dovin Basal black holes are capable of absorbing various blaster shots, while other propel Vong ships through space. The two systems operate largely independently of each other, as seen by CoralSkippers maneuvering and using this active defense simultaneously. If the 'shields' cast a gravitational field strong enough to affect the course of a ship then locomotion would quickly become impossible, as ships get pulled towards blasts that they are being shielded from.
(Credit to Faunus for a much more concise version of this argument that I hadn't realized was there until after I'd already typed it up.)

From all this we can see that Luke's divinity is far from established. But what about the feat itself?

Nai, you say that the black holes would evaporate almost instantly. Isn't that what we see in the books? The Basals create the singularity, use it for whatever they need, and then move on. When their attention is divided (or their will broken) does the singularity remain? I can't remember, but I don't believe so. Moreover, the regions of space where battles take place are not left riddled with black holes. It seems entirely likely that the black holes are not self-sustaining (or, at least, radiate themselves away extremely quickly). After the missile/blast is absorbed, the black hole does disappear. This lends credence to the idea that the singularities are actually smaller than the .

On top of this we have the fantasy elements of the black holes. When they are activated as a method of propulsion, the effects are limited to a single coralskipper. In Star Wars dogfights the fighters tend to become mixed up in a sort of scrum. Would a propulsion system that interferes with the trajectory of your allies be carried into battle? It seems unlikely. Also, I would be hard pressed to find an example of an Alliance ship being pulled by the singularity. A black hole (without any fantasy overlay) would pull all ships around it, not just the one that generated it.

It seems likely that the actual system includes some sort of directionality; when moving, all of the gravitons are pointed in a certain direction, so the effects of a smaller mass are multiplied and can be controlled. Under this system the mass of the black hole that Luke moved might be much smaller indeed-- one third or less (depending on the spread of gravitational pull) of any equivalent body. So from your 3.8E28 J we can deduct two thirds, and then lower that even more if the dovin basals only use as much pull as is necessary for the situation.


I'm not convinced the feat means much at all right now.

Darth_Glentract
The black hole feat seems to be out there by itself in the middle of no where. We can't say with a reasonable degree of certainty whether it's ten times the power of the Sun or if it's equivalent to the energy of a flying mosquito. What we do know though is that neither Luke nor Kyp have ever demonstrated TK on that level at any other time. Why? Because they didn't feel like ever trying? I don't think so. Because of this I think it's safe to assume that it's on the much lower end. Still very impressive, but not godlike. Black hole seems to be a misnomer.

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