Myth, Legend and Religion

Wild Shadow

So i bn rereading some old Legends of gods, demons, angels and various mythological creatures like Demigods... i started thinking if all these creatures and beings did actually exist but were simply embellished in oral stories that would later be handed down and written about in religions perpetuating a believe of divine beings and certain religions.

Could giants really have walked the land in ancient times their description and modern medical evidence suggest that certain "giant" attributes can be found in modern humans and have scientific names for their condition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantism

some biblical accounts of giants were that they were extremely tall, as far as i know some modern men can grow to be 7 ft tall maybe some extreme rare case perhaps could grow to be 9 ft tall.. could ancient man have simply exaggerated when describing 9ft or 12 ft giant men?

keep in mind that ancient man average height could have bn no more then in the 5'5" ft area so to them a man being between 6 to 7 or maybe 8 ft tall would be a giant..

another description of giant men were that some had 6 digit fingers, we know that modern humans do possess that mutated trait..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polydactyly

another is that some giants even had double row set of teeth again not an unheard of condition in modern world but to an ancient man with little understanding could attribute these characteristic as unholy or supernatural....

their have bn a burial site in Nevada where giant skeletons were found and had the average height of 7 ft and also red hair on a continent where such a trait should not have bn likely to occur.

another genetic deformity that is now known and recognized is the bone growth in some human's skulls (horns) it is very rare but it does happen and it is documented and known.. early man again would have or could have confused these traits to being supernatural and the ppl being afflicted to them as being goat men saytrs, demons, even divine beings or gods...

http://thehumanmarvels.com/?p=78
http://prosites-wonesac.homestead.com/History_Unusual_Remains.html

also lets not forget the wolf boys who have the condition known as hypertrichosis easily could have bn confused as a werewolves forest creatures like a satyr or ape men ,wild men.. most of these ppl would have bn shunned and would have hid away maybe others would have taken advantage and declared themselves supernatural or godly beings demigods...

http://www.mexicancircus.com/wolfboys.htm

is it possible that some of these traits could have bn found on one single person in ancient times? a Giant afflicted with more then one genetic deformity which in turn would give rise to legends and myths of nephilims and or other various mythological beings?

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Races.html

now we also have myth heroes and demigods these men could have simply have bn a product of good healthy genetics, breeding and environment upbringing in a place where ur average person would have struggled and been malnourished and short could these god men not simply have bn our version of a modern athlete?

http://www.returnofthenephilim.com/GiantBonesDiscoveries.html

discuss and argue among one another of the possibility of actual saytrs, nephilim and demigods being real but not in the supernatural sense but in a more mundane genetic freak type sense and one person possessing more then one mutation...

could the stories have bn somewhat factual or just fiction without an iota of truth in it.

Symmetric Chaos

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
So i bn rereading some old Legends of gods, demons, angels and various mythological creatures like Demigods... i started thinking if all these creatures and beings did actually exist but were simply embellished in oral stories that would later be handed down and written about in religions perpetuating a believe of divine beings and certain religions.

Could giants really have walked the land in ancient times their description and modern medical evidence suggest that certain "giant" attributes can be found in modern humans and have scientific names for their condition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantism

some biblical accounts of giants were that they were extremely tall, as far as i know some modern men can grow to be 7 ft tall maybe some extreme rare case perhaps could grow to be 9 ft tall.. could ancient man have simply exaggerated when describing 9ft or 12 ft giant men?

keep in mind that ancient man average height could have bn no more then in the 5'5" ft area so to them a man being between 6 to 7 or maybe 8 ft tall would be a giant..

A race of giant humans would never survive on Earth unless they had dramatically superhuman physiology. Just look at all the medical problems that the world's tallest men have to deal with.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
now we also have myth heroes and demigods these men could have simply have bn a product of good healthy genetics, breeding and environment upbringing in a place where ur average person would have struggled and been malnourished and short could these god men not simply have bn our version of a modern athlete?

Yes this is possible. Just as we exaggerate how great modern athletes are (Bruce Lee can totally beat a tank in a fight) early man would have done the same thing.

There is evidence a similar effects happening. The story of Atlantis is hypothesized to refer to the Minoans of Crete who towered over their contemporaries with the superhuman feat of building a four story castle. Time goes by and the story kept up with technology until it says that they had lasers and flying cities.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
discuss and argue among one another of the possibility of actual saytrs, nephilim and demigods being real but not in the supernatural sense but in a more mundane genetic freak type sense and one person possessing more then one mutation...

The needed mutations don't line up very well. Urban legend style exaggerations sparked by competition strike me as much more likely.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
could the stories have bn somewhat factual or just fiction without an iota of truth in it.

A story doesn't have to be factual at all to transmit an important Truth.

Wild Shadow

@ Symmetric Chaos

so you dont think it could have bn possible for a race of giant men ranging from 6 to 7 ft tall to exist in ancient times?

keep in mind not all giants possessed the same trade some were taller then others some had bad teeth and an extra digit.

could these men simply interbred within their race and could have bn the cause of their deformities/mutations?

how would being and extra foot or two in height bn so detrimental to them?

there are modern african tribes whose height average is 7 ft tall in an area where game is not too abundant and struggle to hunt and feed themselves... another tribe is called the ostrich feet tribe accurately known as The Vadoma tribe also derogatorily referred to as the birdmen.

they have a deformity from interbreeding within their tribe so long that they have deformed feet that some say resembles ostrich feet.

why couldnt a small race or tribe of giants existed in the middle east in ancient times with similar deformities?

if i recall some european giant men like the vikings were tall robust men who lived in a harsh an unforgiving climate. although not giant to us would have bn considered to others as such.

would it be so unlikely that some of these men not bn born with an extra finger like the giants of legend? and if so why not another tall race of men in the middle east not have the same happen to them in a similar harsh environment

dont take offensive i really want to know the odds and what to talk about the possibility of such a think so dont think i am just being a pain or disagreeing with you?

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&resnum=0&q=ostrich+tribe&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=TcmzS93-Cs-F-QaH3ZiTAg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CB0QsAQwAw

Digi

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
so you dont think it could have bn possible for a race of giant men ranging from 6 to 7 ft tall to exist in ancient times?

If there were an entire race of them, there would be some fossil record of them. As it is, there is none whatsoever. Now, which do think is more likely, that we've never discovered a single fossil of a race of giants that once existed, or that they never existed? Both are possible, obviously, but one is far more likely. And contrary to some misinformation that exists on the subject, the modern fossil record of our lineage is very comprehensive.

I'm struggling with what exactly you consider to be a giant, though. A certain area of the world where the average height is 7 foot, as you mentioned up there, isn't a tribe of giants. They're just large men. Any larger and, like Smurph said, and there would be too many medical complications for them to have any kind of longevity.

One or two anomalies I could be convinced of, with the proper hard evidence. A race, or even a tribe, much less doubtful. Webbed feet can be lived with consistently. Being 10 foot+ can't, barring some radical physiological superiority to "normal" men.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
why couldnt a small race or tribe of giants existed in the middle east in ancient times with similar deformities?

They could have, but that's not the point. The point is that it's impossible to draw anything resembling an affirmation of this without evidence for it, and what you've alluded to in your words and links is not nearly enough, imo.

__________________

The idea that myths are grounded in some historical event or figure is not a new one. Some have plenty of evidence for it (Jesus, for example). But most have no solid basis for confirming it (Zeus, thousands of others, etc). So I think this particular musing takes the idea a bit too far.

Interesting topic, though. I hate coming down as a hardline skeptic on ideas that show genuine curiosity for something that's relatively harmless. But I also won't hold back my opinion.

Wild Shadow

now i am not saying they were actual mythological giants that are actually tall and robust and at an extreme height.

i was using the word giant as to how some one of ancient times would have described a modern average tall man.. perhaps a giant to them would have bn some one that was 6'2" maybe in extreme cases taller possibly reaching 7 ft...

i am not saying their would be a large race of giant men in ancient time but, why cant their be a group of ppl or tribe or an area where their men are taller more robust then ur average ancient man? that in itself is not unlikely or unheard of.. i personally have no problem believing in a group of men or tribe in the middle east whose average height could have bn some where in the 6 ft range as the norm and given rise to the legend of giants..

to me a race of such men or tribe could have bn small only numbering in the few 100 if that and simply spread out or mixed with the local population and slowly decrease their height they could also be the reason for certain men of legend who were great strong warriors simply b/c they were taller stronger then the norm.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Tallest-People-in-the-World-61130.shtml

dont you take this from me digi... let me muse... you probably tell a kid santa clause isnt real.

Symmetric Chaos

Digi

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
now i am not saying they were actual mythological giants that are actually tall and robust and at an extreme height.

i was using the word giant as to how some one of ancient times would have described a modern average tall man.. perhaps a giant to them would have bn some one that was 6'2" maybe in extreme cases taller possibly reaching 7 ft...

i am not saying their would be a large race of giant men in ancient time but, why cant their be a group of ppl or tribe or an area where their men are taller more robust then ur average ancient man? that in itself is not unlikely or unheard of.. i personally have no problem believing in a group of men or tribe in the middle east whose average height could have bn some where in the 6 ft range as the norm and given rise to the legend of giants..

to me a race of such men or tribe could have bn small only numbering in the few 100 if that and simply spread out or mixed with the local population and slowly decrease their height they could also be the reason for certain men of legend who were great strong warriors simply b/c they were taller stronger then the norm.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Tallest-People-in-the-World-61130.shtml

What myths specifically reference heroes of gigantic proportions? I just think that the whole deal seems unlikely. The classic hero myth (see: works of Joseph Campbell) draws from similar ideas and themes, but the actual physical appearance of the hero has little to do with it.

It would also seem far more likely to me that any "giant" hero figure would have attained such status because of the stature of their legend, not their physical stature...the immensity of a hero's deeds are far more likely to survive retelling than trivial details of appearance. And also just as likely (or moreso) that an average-sized hero grew in size as the telling of his tale grew. Jesus is depicted as white in the States more often than not, for example...appearance shifts according to culture. Stature is only metaphorical.

But let's take David and Goliath. Classic mythological giant. It's doubtful he ever existed. It seems far more like a token "giant evil" to stand in as a metaphor, and to display the power of faith in the face of "giant" adversity. He doesn't seem like an actual person, in other words. To me at least.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
dont you take this from me digi... let me muse... you probably tell a kid santa clause isnt real.

He's not real. Now take it like a man and quit yer cryin'

stick out tongue

Wild Shadow

Originally posted by Digi
What myths specifically reference heroes of gigantic proportions?

i was thinking more along the lines of being strong powerful men whose height would have attributed to their adventures of strength and various feats due to being above average height of the time.

Someone like Hercules comes to mind with his large stride when recounting the legend of him being responsible for some of the olympic games...

his strength feats of legends could have simply bn something that they used to exaggerate his above average strength..

i am sure there are myths of various heroes of gigantic proportions from across the globe but i am trying to focus mostly toward legends of the middle east and the roman empire..

so the only giants i am currently aware of, of that time that didnt reach the fantastic heights of beings like the ancient Titans size of mountain ranges were the supposed offspring of passed Giants Goliath and Gog. these two seem more plausible who may have slightly bn exaggerated in retelling of their stories.

also during the moses wandering in the desert and coming across a city of giants... the claiming that they felt like grasshoppers is their way of saying how small they felt compared to them...

these giants could have simply bn men of above average height in the 6 ft range when the average man of the time would have bn in the mid 5 ft range...

even in modern times some ppl have described their fellow man as giants from their perspective of awe and worship or fear...

there was a holocaust account of a woman who described the allied soldiers who had come to rescue them after liberating a concentration camp.

she described the soldiers who stood b4 her as giant men who picked her up as if she were a child that her guardian angels had come... her recount of her story some 100's of yrs or 1000's of yrs may one day be taken as literal and the ppl not knowing the full account or context of her story may consider it fictitious ....

another modern example was when i was in Iraq some of the locals described some of us as being like giants in height and strength.

me being average i had a local who seemed about my height but i was so used to being around soldiers and various nations warriors that to me he seemed like a man child small below what i would consider weight and strength class as well as below average muscle mass..

he used to follow me to the gym since he worked on base and would want to work out with me, i was able to casually lift 3x times what he did and he was constantly impressed... to me i was just an average man to him i was above average... i also think he might have bn bi now that i think about it i know he was cause he would tell me i was handsome, good looking and ask if i had a GF back home.. hmm.... sick

maybe he was just flattering me.. confused

also some links of supposed digs sites burial of above average men

http://hubpages.com/hub/Human-Giants
http://paranormal.about.com/od/mysteriousremains/a/aa060605.html
http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/N.Am/hidden.proofs.giant.race.html
http://www.sydhav.no/giants/overview.htm

King Kandy

Myths describe giant people usually as being powerful warriors but people with gigantism are usually less coordinated and healthy than regular people, so I doubt it.

Wild Shadow

Originally posted by King Kandy
Myths describe giant people usually as being powerful warriors but people with gigantism are usually less coordinated and healthy than regular people, so I doubt it. agreed. but where do you draw the line of what would have considered a giant in ancient times? and how tall could a healthy person hag gotten without suffering physical problems?

could a tall man in ancient times with 6 fingers bn possible for the legends and stories of nephilims?

Mindset

Originally posted by King Kandy
Myths describe giant people usually as being powerful warriors but people with gigantism are usually less coordinated and healthy than regular people, so I doubt it. Depends on what they considered giant.

There are 7ft(+) basketball players and mixed martial artists.

http://www.mma-core.com/images/fights/full/Junior_dos_Santos_vs_StefanStruve_1000096.jpg

Digi

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
even in modern times some ppl have described their fellow man as giants from their perspective of awe and worship or fear...

there was a holocaust account of a woman who described the allied soldiers who had come to rescue them after liberating a concentration camp.

she described the soldiers who stood b4 her as giant men who picked her up as if she were a child that her guardian angels had come... her recount of her story some 100's of yrs or 1000's of yrs may one day be taken as literal and the ppl not knowing the full account or context of her story may consider it fictitious ....

another modern example was when i was in Iraq some of the locals described some of us as being like giants in height and strength.

Examples like these only strengthen my argument, because we know there aren't 8 foot mammoths stalking around the armed forces saving individuals. The perceived physical stature becomes metaphoric for the nature of of their deeds. Multiply this phenomenon by thousands of years and you can begin to see the depth of my argument: no actual physical characteristics have survived from antiquity, and are merely standards applied to heroes who did something heroic.

It's also, as before, far more likely that these myths (Herc, etc.) weren't actual people, but a steady modification of stories told throughout cultures.

Digi

Your links generally seem to fall into two categories as well: links about giant-ness in various forms, and links about myths. The tether you create between them lacks evidence, which is necessary for any theory to be considered viable.

Your ideas are possible, but there's no good way to confirm them, so this thread is likely doomed to run in circles:
"Well what about this....?"
"Possible, but unlikely."
"Well what about..."
etc. etc.

And beware sites like the "Humans with Horns" one. Baloney detectors in your head should start going off. Ask yourself why no one in the general population has ever heard of it if we can confirm that the bones are real. Stories like that, corroborated by legit sources, spread like wildfire.

Mindset

Digi is scared of giants.

Wild Shadow

Originally posted by Mindset
Digi is scared of giants. yeah, they once ate a relative of his and ever since then has hated, despised and feared them..
now he works for a secret organization to eradicate them and spread misinformation of mythological giants in order to continue hunting and killing while unbeknown to the general population... MIB style...

Wild Shadow

now i am going to keep my eyes open for a tall 6 and a half man possibly 7 ft with six fingers just so i can post a pic here. and say in ur face!!!

maybe a tall man with a horn or double rowed teeth... run up takes some snap shots and load them up for you and be in ur face!!!

not only is it probable/possible but it is factual!!!

angel_not

also i am not saying every story had some grain of truth or based on something that may have happen just saying maybe one or two could have bn rooted in truth and is no longer recognized as such...

also i am not saying they are magical/mystical and acknowledgement of god's presence.. .. just saying genetic defects could have bn responsible for some stories.

Digi

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
alos i am not saying every story had some grain of truth or based on something that may have happen just saying maybe one or two could have bn rooted in truth and is no longer recognized as such...

- The word "maybe" identifies the idea as a presumption, not a substantiated theory.

- If the myths are no longer recognized as having come from a factual source, how are we to confirm that they are?

There's the heart of it. You're believing what you want to instead of admitting that we don't and likely can't ever know. Many people do it (all of us to some extent, though some much more than others) and often beliefs fly in the face of contradictory evidence instead of just in the face of no evidence either way. So there's varying degrees of willful denial, and this is far from the most extreme. But that's still what it is.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
also i am not saying they are magical/mystical and acknowledgement of god's presence.. .. just saying genetic defects could have bn responsible for some stories.

Understood. My points stand. Now, I think at this point we are going in circles, so I will attempt to bow out unless I have something new to say. Thanks for the discussion though. Like I said earlier, my abject disagreement with you doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the debate.

Wild Shadow

well it was nice talking with you i didn't think i was debating or anything just postulating out loud, an electronic sounding board.
i was house and you were my medical department assistance..
i throw out some ideas you guys argue among urselves tell me i am wrong, i point at something make a smart @$$ comment or parable like speech..

you then give me ur take i make fun of u some more, ignore it and go with what i know... and call myself a genius and take credit...

bye the bye many professionals jobs is to speculate no matter how unlikely and come up with what is probable and likely to happen..

lawyers, judges, jury, detectives, profilers, doctors, theorist, archeologoist and various scientist in their fields... i was doing no different with what is more likely to happen between certain likelihood of supernatural or a more mundane explainable reasons while acknowledging the possibility of certain things being somewhat factual or probable instead of saying out right it is all made up and nothing more then stories like comics of ancient times..

just entertaining the idea

Symmetric Chaos

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i was doing no different with what is more likely to happen between certain likelihood of supernatural or a more mundane explainable reasons while acknowledging the possibility of certain things being somewhat factual or probable instead of saying out right it is all made up and nothing more then stories like comics of ancient times..

However you failed to apply Occam's Razor.

Is it possible that there just happened to be a race of people who all had the mutations for giantism, horns and six fingers? From a position of strict intellectual honesty, yes. However it is absurdly unlikely so until we unearth this particular group and confirm that the skeletons are real it is best to look for another explanation.

The pastime of fishing leads us to a simpler explanation. People exaggerate events.

Wild Shadow

i didnt fail i was simply entertaining the notion.. i am aware of its unlikely occurrence of some possessing multiple traits in one body but, i did take into account certain biological mutations that have developed in certain races and small groups of ppl due to isolation...

some being extremely tall african races reaching 7 ft and disproportionate neck and head size and longer arms compared to the rest of humanity head and body ratio...

i also took into account negative harmful mutation of another certain african tribe called the ostrich tribe who have developed and carried a particular defect in their gene pool where 1 in 4 have deformed feet being two toed which some say resemble ostrich feet and consider it an advantage for tree climbing.

taking this into account i dont think it is anymore unlikely for a random tall person with bad teeth and possessing an extra digit to have existed in the middle east..

or a group of tall ppl with an extra digit mutation to have formed into cult like groups which have bn known to happen at the time...

rolling on floor laughing

Digi

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
well it was nice talking with you i didn't think i was debating or anything just postulating out loud, an electronic sounding board.
i was house and you were my medical department assistance..
i throw out some ideas you guys argue among urselves tell me i am wrong, i point at something make a smart @$$ comment or parable like speech..

you then give me ur take i make fun of u some more, ignore it and go with what i know... and call myself a genius and take credit...

laughing out loud

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
bye the bye many professionals jobs is to speculate no matter how unlikely and come up with what is probable and likely to happen..

lawyers, judges, jury, detectives, profilers, doctors, theorist, archeologoist and various scientist in their fields... i was doing no different with what is more likely to happen between certain likelihood of supernatural or a more mundane explainable reasons while acknowledging the possibility of certain things being somewhat factual or probable instead of saying out right it is all made up and nothing more then stories like comics of ancient times..

just entertaining the idea

Speculation is blind guessing. Most of the jobs you mentioned are working with various forms of hard evidence. Especially scientists, to whom speculating is only the first step in the scientific process. But I digress.

Also, I was never terribly skeptical of your proposed "perfect storm" of mutations in one person. Well, I was actually, but that wasn't the main focus. My skepticality was more centered on that hypothetical person being the cause of a myth, and the utter lack of evidence for such an idea. Occam's Razor indeed, however. You're stuck behind many, many more plausible theories.

Deja~vu

I'd like to think that there is truth out there to many of these type of stories, I've searched for years. I've bought many books from the source of the religions. I have bought lexicons, transcribed texts and visited certain churches to try to find out. The only conclusion is that it is all based on myths. It was heartbreaking when I learned that, btw. All stores are based on earlier stories. The further I went back and looked at history the more it was apparent. Now, I am not saying that there isn't something of some kind of intellegence, but I don't believe it can be found in religion. That's just my take on it all.

Digi

Originally posted by Deja~vu
I'd like to think that there is truth out there to many of these type of stories, I've searched for years. I've bought many books from the source of the religions. I have bought lexicons, transcribed texts and visited certain churches to try to find out. The only conclusion is that it is all based on myths. It was heartbreaking when I learned that, btw. All stores are based on earlier stories. The further I went back and looked at history the more it was apparent. Now, I am not saying that there isn't something of some kind of intellegence, but I don't believe it can be found in religion. That's just my take on it all.

Right, exactly! It's not heartbreaking though, imo, there's a certain comfort in knowing that the commonality of mythic structures can be traced to common themes and struggles in the human experience. These transcend time and culture. It's quite powerful, really. But trying to look for concretized versions of these myths is fruitless, and is mistaking metaphor for fact.

Wild Shadow

Originally posted by Digi
laughing out loud

Speculation is blind guessing. Most of the jobs you mentioned are working with various forms of hard evidence. Especially scientists, to whom speculating is only the first step in the scientific process. But I digress.

Also, I was never terribly skeptical of your proposed "perfect storm" of mutations in one person. Well, I was actually, but that wasn't the main focus. My skepticality was more centered on that hypothetical person being the cause of a myth, and the utter lack of evidence for such an idea. Occam's Razor indeed, however. You're stuck behind many, many more plausible theories.

jurors and judges go by interpretation of the law and opinions and hearsay of others who in turn try to twist and turn the truth and spin things around for ones favor..

anthropologist do almost nothing but guess work when trying to recreate the society of the past and its ppl when it comes to daily labors...

quantum physicist are on another lvl of speculation theny ur average physicist or chemist, engineers.. etc etc..

they do nothing but speculate with little or no hard or tangible evidence.. they are one step above fantasy writers and make more assumptions then in my proposed possibility of this thread.. cool

Deja~vu

People just love something tangible to hold on to. It is if they feel secure knowing that they would be taken care of just like a parent. When we leave our parents and go out on our own, we like the security of knowing that we will be taken care of in some way. Isn't this the same thing? God is our parent and he will take care of us if only....And we DO THESE, IF ONLY..then we are told we didn't do them good enough for our parent, (god) to pay attention, acknowlege, support us.

We hear words like:

He loves us.
It's for our own good.
He wants us to do better.
If your mind was more pure..just do that.
Are there hidden sins?
Maybe god is trying to tell you something, yes?
You just are not listening.
Hey, I died for you, but you didn't read the fine print, offspring...Like save once and only once, baptism is the way...you need to go door to door,you didn't baptise your dead relatives, your offering wasn't quit there, you think sinful thoughts..eww, you go to church on Sunday instead of the established Sabbath, (Saturday).., you don't take the sacrements, You believe in Jesus as the god.
Is god the father one and the only one? Is jesus the same as the father? Is there three gods in one? Is the holy spirt the same as three? Is the Trinity real? Why is it needed?
Why do we need baptised when the guy next to you wasn't?

Damn, ...Aren't we a screwed-up creation drear god not to understand what you want US TO DO. Hmm

And the purpose of this confusion is what, my savior?

Mindset

Originally posted by Deja~vu
I'd like to think that there is truth out there to many of these type of stories, I've searched for years. I've bought many books from the source of the religions. I have bought lexicons, transcribed texts and visited certain churches to try to find out. The only conclusion is that it is all based on myths. It was heartbreaking when I learned that, btw. All stores are based on earlier stories. The further I went back and looked at history the more it was apparent. Now, I am not saying that there isn't something of some kind of intellegence, but I don't believe it can be found in religion. That's just my take on it all. I can't trust you, you're a woman.

Women are the reason we're in this mess!

Wild Shadow

Originally posted by Mindset
I can't trust you, you're a woman.

Women are the reason we're in this mess! what mess? world full of sin, lust corruption and human mutations of giants and six finger ppl?

Deja~vu

Originally posted by Mindset
I can't trust you, you're a woman.

Women are the reason we're in this mess! blink

Digi

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
jurors and judges go by interpretation of the law and opinions and hearsay of others who in turn try to twist and turn the truth and spin things around for ones favor..

anthropologist do almost nothing but guess work when trying to recreate the society of the past and its ppl when it comes to daily labors...

quantum physicist are on another lvl of speculation theny ur average physicist or chemist, engineers.. etc etc..

they do nothing but speculate with little or no hard or tangible evidence.. they are one step above fantasy writers and make more assumptions then in my proposed possibility of this thread.. cool

Then you know nothing about how those professions actually work.

srug

Wild Shadow

Originally posted by Digi
Then you know nothing about how those professions actually work.

srug i do to.. i have taken classes in some studies and bn part of the criminal justice system....blue_bandana

and most importantly i watch star trek and listen to quantum theorist all the time on youtube.. stick out tongue

xNhzjzH5XBE

Deja~vu

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i do to.. i laughing out loud

Sorry, I was just imagining this in person.

Kinda sounds like me. LOL

Digi

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i do to.. i have taken classes in some studies and bn part of the criminal justice system....blue_bandana

and most importantly i watch star trek and listen to quantum theorist all the time on youtube.. stick out tongue

...then you should know that juries base their decisions on hard evidence and logic, and in the absence of either the person goes free. Or that quantum theorists and scientists make clear distinctions between that which we have direct evidence for, that which checks out mathematically but we haven't observed yet, that which certain aspects of have been tested/proven and others haven't, and that which is entirely theoretical. Conclusions are not based on fanciful guesses. They're based on evidence. You're mistaking an idea for a conclusion to say that your ideas require no less speculation.

Skew the facts if you must to feel like your idea is on the level with them. It's of little import to me.

Wild Shadow

why cant you just leave me alone? do you really need to nitpick every little thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc&feature=related
bawling

Digi

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
why cant you just leave me alone? do you really need to nitpick every little thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc&feature=related
bawling

Only the things that are wrong.

happy

What's Richard Dawkins line about convenient truths? "Just because something feels good doesn't make it true." ...paraphrased heavily, I'm sure, but no less pertinent.

Shakyamunison

Originally posted by Digi
Only the things that are wrong.

happy

...

How unfair of you... wink

Quiero Mota

Originally posted by Digi
If there were an entire race of them, there would be some fossil record of them. As it is, there is none whatsoever. Now, which do think is more likely, that we've never discovered a single fossil of a race of giants that once existed, or that they never existed? Both are possible, obviously, but one is far more likely. And contrary to some misinformation that exists on the subject, the modern fossil record of our lineage is very comprehensive.
it (Zeus, thousands of others, etc). So I think this particular musing takes the idea a bit too far.

You're familiar with the ceolacanth fish, right? Maybe a discovery similar that, but with a giant race might happen. One day: BOOM!, just like that a fossil is found.

Wild Shadow

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=chinese%20dragon&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

the oarfish mighty suspicious looking..

http://www.bloodydecks.com/forums/attachments/baja-mexico-fishing-reports-discussion/62699d1178665319-oarfish-east-cape-img_0672.jpg

Digi

WS, thumbnails bro.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
You're familiar with the ceolacanth fish, right? Maybe a discovery similar that, but with a giant race might happen. One day: BOOM!, just like that a fossil is found.

K. Doesn't do anything to refute my opinion though. I'm not going to acknowledge a hypothetical fossil that could be found someday, but probably doesn't exist. Would you consider an entire species as being plausible before any evidence was found of it?

Wild Shadow

a giant wouldnt be a new species it would be the same human species with slight variation in its bone structure and height.

also it is more then possible to find a 7 ft skeleton with six fingers and bad teeth.. stick out tongue

pretty sure we have some of those laying around in cemeteries as well as in the past in ancient iraq middle east..

also i dont know how to make thumb size and it wasnt that big when i was looking at it in another site.

Quiero Mota

Originally posted by Digi
WS, thumbnails bro.

K. Doesn't do anything to refute my opinion though. I'm not going to acknowledge a hypothetical fossil that could be found someday, but probably doesn't exist. Would you consider an entire species as being plausible before any evidence was found of it?

For the most part, I'm open to the possibility. But I doubt bigfoot and nessie.

Digi

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
For the most part, I'm open to the possibility. But I doubt bigfoot and nessie.

"open to the possibility" doesn't really mean much to me. You'd have to clarify. I'm open to the possibility of God, for example, but I don't believe in one. Being open doesn't mean believing in something without a valid reason. Or, I should clarify, it shouldn't mean that, though it often does for people.

Original Smurph

Originally posted by Digi
Any larger and, like Smurph said, and there would be too many medical complications for them to have any kind of longevity. Huh... ermmnone

I said that, did I?

Digi

Originally posted by Original Smurph
Huh... ermmnone

I said that, did I?

Sym then. All ya'll look the same to me.

ha-son

Wild Shadow

Originally posted by Digi
...then you should know that juries base their decisions on hard evidence and logic, and in the absence of either the person goes free. Or that quantum theorists and scientists make clear distinctions between that which we have direct evidence for, that which checks out mathematically but we haven't observed yet, that which certain aspects of have been tested/proven and others haven't, and that which is entirely theoretical. Conclusions are not based on fanciful guesses. They're based on evidence. You're mistaking an idea for a conclusion to say that your ideas require no less speculation.

Skew the facts if you must to feel like your idea is on the level with them. It's of little import to me.

Kw8dcb8iKSM

Digi

You're still missing my point. Kaku wouldn't publish that speech as evidence for extraterrestrial life. He's speaking in hypotheticals. A scientists first job is to formulate a theory....that's what he's doing, in a very broad sense. But it doesn't stop there. The theory must then be tested, verified or denied, and repeated. He's only dealing with step 1, as are you. But here's the difference between you: Kaku is testing his theories based on known science and math. He has several books published to this affect, and as I mentioned before he "makes clear distinctions between that which we have direct evidence for, that which checks out mathematically but we haven't observed yet, that which certain aspects of have been tested/proven and others haven't, and that which is entirely theoretical." Yes, scientists speculate, string theorists in particular. All the time. That was your point, right? Mine is that it's not all they do, but it's all you're doing.

You have a theory. That's it. An untested, unproven, theory. It's possible, but not likely. We're back at square one, in the same circle that I said you were stuck in back on page 1.

I also dislike how he speaks of "scientists" condescendingly as a general group. I'd like to see specific assumptions made by "scientists" that claim that all aliens are within a couple hundred years of us scientifically. My guess is that they don't exist, and he's merely attacking popular media conception of aliens. His actual writing is much better, because he's not forced into generalities by youtube-like soundbite explanations.

Symmetric Chaos

That's a very dubious source:

Michio Kaku is a string theorist so he doesn't count as a scientist any more than economists do stick out tongue

The General Theory of Relativity isn't "beyond Einstein" it was developed by Einstein. It also only allows you violate the speed of light under two conditions a) if you get there first or b) if you are willing to violate causality/logic.

Quantum physics wasn't discovered "5 years ago".

Also keep in mind that the good thing about Kaku is that he presents himself very well. He can sell science to the masses (which is great) but in doing so he has to leave out and rephrase a huge about of reasearch as well as extrapolate beyond what we actually know. This unfortunately results in things that are effectively less true than the work they're based on.

Bicnarok

Myth, Legend and Religion are the same thing, the sad thing is people believe them.

Shakyamunison

Originally posted by Bicnarok
Myth, Legend and Religion are the same thing, the sad thing is people believe them.

Really? Have you ever wandered why myths, legends and religions exist in the first place? From your point of view, they are a waste. However, they have lasted for as long as humans can remember. How many wasteful things can you think of that last?

Myths, legends and religions serve a vital importance; I would even go as far as to say they gave us humans an evolutionary advantage. To find that importance is a worthwhile endeavor. That is separate from the argument of what is true (in the simplest form of the word).

Symmetric Chaos

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Really? Have you ever wandered why myths, legends and religions exist in the first place? From your point of view, they are a waste.

Unless they are tools used to control the masses.

Shakyamunison

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Unless they are tools used to control the masses.

Like politics, nationalism and justice?

Quiero Mota

Originally posted by Bicnarok
Myth, Legend and Religion are the same thing, the sad thing is people believe them.

I know what you're saying, but its not true. "Myth" and "legend" have completely different definitions. Musicians will sometimes be called "living legends", not "living myths", and religion is in a category all its own.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison

Myths, legends and religions serve a vital importance; I would even go as far as to say they gave us humans an evolutionary advantage.

Dawkins thinks so. In The Greatest Show On Earth he says that strong beliefs in abstract concepts helped early human tribes survive in times of crisis because it strongly re-enforced the strength-in-numbers mentality.

inimalist

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Michio Kaku is a string theorist so he doesn't count as a scientist any more than economists do stick out tongue

marry me

Digi

Originally posted by inimalist
marry me

haermm

Bumping to highlight this sh*t.

Stoic

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
So i bn rereading some old Legends of gods, demons, angels and various mythological creatures like Demigods... i started thinking if all these creatures and beings did actually exist but were simply embellished in oral stories that would later be handed down and written about in religions perpetuating a believe of divine beings and certain religions.

Could giants really have walked the land in ancient times their description and modern medical evidence suggest that certain "giant" attributes can be found in modern humans and have scientific names for their condition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantism

some biblical accounts of giants were that they were extremely tall, as far as i know some modern men can grow to be 7 ft tall maybe some extreme rare case perhaps could grow to be 9 ft tall.. could ancient man have simply exaggerated when describing 9ft or 12 ft giant men?

keep in mind that ancient man average height could have bn no more then in the 5'5" ft area so to them a man being between 6 to 7 or maybe 8 ft tall would be a giant..

another description of giant men were that some had 6 digit fingers, we know that modern humans do possess that mutated trait..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polydactyly

another is that some giants even had double row set of teeth again not an unheard of condition in modern world but to an ancient man with little understanding could attribute these characteristic as unholy or supernatural....

their have bn a burial site in Nevada where giant skeletons were found and had the average height of 7 ft and also red hair on a continent where such a trait should not have bn likely to occur.

another genetic deformity that is now known and recognized is the bone growth in some human's skulls (horns) it is very rare but it does happen and it is documented and known.. early man again would have or could have confused these traits to being supernatural and the ppl being afflicted to them as being goat men saytrs, demons, even divine beings or gods...

http://thehumanmarvels.com/?p=78
http://prosites-wonesac.homestead.com/History_Unusual_Remains.html

also lets not forget the wolf boys who have the condition known as hypertrichosis easily could have bn confused as a werewolves forest creatures like a satyr or ape men ,wild men.. most of these ppl would have bn shunned and would have hid away maybe others would have taken advantage and declared themselves supernatural or godly beings demigods...

http://www.mexicancircus.com/wolfboys.htm

is it possible that some of these traits could have bn found on one single person in ancient times? a Giant afflicted with more then one genetic deformity which in turn would give rise to legends and myths of nephilims and or other various mythological beings?

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Races.html

now we also have myth heroes and demigods these men could have simply have bn a product of good healthy genetics, breeding and environment upbringing in a place where ur average person would have struggled and been malnourished and short could these god men not simply have bn our version of a modern athlete?

http://www.returnofthenephilim.com/GiantBonesDiscoveries.html

discuss and argue among one another of the possibility of actual saytrs, nephilim and demigods being real but not in the supernatural sense but in a more mundane genetic freak type sense and one person possessing more then one mutation...

could the stories have bn somewhat factual or just fiction without an iota of truth in it.

King Kandy

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
I know what you're saying, but its not true. "Myth" and "legend" have completely different definitions. Musicians will sometimes be called "living legends", not "living myths", and religion is in a category all its own.
God forbid that words have more than one definition.

King Castle

Originally posted by Stoic
that pic is a photoshopped image made by some college kids for their photography/com class

that my friend is not real.

King Kandy

Actually, looks to me like it's just the perspective.

Quiero Mota

Originally posted by King Kandy
God forbid that words have more than one definition.

That's basically what I said: "myth" and "legend" have two different meanings, even though people will sometimes incorrectly use them interchangeably.

And why are you waiting til now before deciding to quote a post I made 8 months ago?

Stoic

Originally posted by King Castle
that pic is a photoshopped image made by some college kids for their photography/com class

that my friend is not real.

http://members.toast.net/rjspina/Giants%20and%20Cannibalism.htm

Other human Fossil finds

A 19'6" human skeleton found in 1577 A.D. under an overturned oak tree in the Canton of Lucerne.

23-foot tall skeleton found in 1456 A.D. beside a river in Valence, France.

A 25' 6 " skeleton found in 1613 A.D. near the castle of Chaumont in France. This was claimed to be a nearly complete find.

A 9' 8" skeleton was excavated from a mound near Brewersville, Indiana (Indianapolis News, Nov 10, 1975).

In 1833 soldiers digging at a pit for a powder magazine in Lompock Rancho, California, discovered a male skeleton 12 feet tall. The skeleton was surrounded by carved shells, stone axes, and blocks of porphyry covered with unintelligible symbols. The skeleton had double rows of upper and lower teeth. These bones substantiated legends by the local Piute Indians regarding giants which they called Si-Te-Cahs.

In Clearwater Minnesota, the skeletons of seven giants were found in mounds. These had receding foreheads and complete double dentition.

http://www.bibleprobe.com/nephilim.htm