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H2H fight, no weapons

Fight takes place in a UFC cage

Scenario 1: KO

Scenario 2: To the death

Rambo; He showed some martial arts skill in the third installment.

This has been done already. Rambo wins 10/10.

I actually forgot what Rambo 3 was about

Rambo stomps, tells Dutch to be in Predator remake

Originally posted by steverules_2
I actually forgot what Rambo 3 was about Dead Russians.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Dead Russians.

....was there a tank near the end?

Yeah which transformed into a robot.

Originally posted by Kazenji
Yeah which transformed into a robot.

Lol how about that Kazenji can trasnform into a jackass, impressive

Well back to your question....yes there was a tank.

Originally posted by Kazenji
Well back to your question....yes there was a tank.

There we go Thank you, haven't seen Rambo 3 for a while

Originally posted by steverules_2
....was there a tank near the end? Yes, and alot of dead Russians.

Rambo is such a racist

Nah, he kills without discrimination.

He's never Killed an American, always foreigners

Russians, Gooks, and he killed Galt in First Blood.

Oh yeah he did...but he didn't mean to kill him did he?

Irrelevant.

Think it is, he means to kill the Russians and other foreigners

Well, he IS a United States soldier, dude.

You coulda just said that earlier

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Well, he IS a United States soldier, dude.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
This has been done already. Rambo wins 10/10.

"Screen feats can be overlooked at times, like now." Dutch would bend Rambo into a pretzel.

haermm



No. Rambo makes Dutch his *****.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
haermm



No. Rambo makes Dutch his *****.

Dutch killed a Predator, a Predator that could have soloed every single enemy Rambo took down; all at once.

Originally posted by Robtard
Dutch killed a Predator, a Predator that could have soloed every single enemy Rambo took down; all at once. Mhm, and Dutch couldn't even faze the Predator H2H.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Mhm, and Dutch couldn't even faze the Predator H2H.

And? Dutch took on and defeated a foe FAR greater than the hicks of First Blood, the VC/Russians of Rambo II, The Russians of Rambo III and the slops in Rambo.

ie Dutch > Rambo, plus Dutch had a cooler accent and was is better shape.

Sorry, who exactly did Dutch take on and WIN h2h?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Sorry, who exactly did Dutch take on and WIN h2h?

He survived H2H with the Predator; that's greater than beating on a few Russians.

The fight would probably end with Dutch ripping off his shirt and flexing his superior build, as Rambo would likely run after that.

Originally posted by Robtard
He survived H2H with the Predator; that's greater than beating on a few Russians. No, who did he WIN against h2h? Not the Predator, that's for sure.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No, who did he WIN against h2h? Not the Predator, that's for sure.

He took the super-strength hits of the Predator; I remember one being hard enough to send his 225lbs ass flying.

Rambo could beat on him all day; Dutch would only laugh and say "you're like a poor-man's Billy."

And those hits, just a coupla them, reduced Dutch to a crawling cripple.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And those hits, just a coupla them, reduced Dutch to a crawling cripple.

Um, no. He bleed, he was hurt; he was okay though. Considering how strong they were, his damage-soak is higher than Rambo (aka Bargain-Box Billy) can output.

Originally posted by Robtard
Um, no. He bleed, he was hurt; he was okay though. Considering how strong they were, he's damage-soak is higher than Rambo (aka Bargain-Box Billy) can output. Really now? From what I remember, Dutch was crawling around like a crackhead looking for a crack rock.

Rambo has four movies worth of abuse, of taking punishment and kicking ass.

Gouged arm. Fall from a cliff. Electrical torture. Shot in the side. Shot in the leg. Shot in the shoulder.

He took all this and never slowed down, always kept going and won in the end. The man took out a helicopter with a stone, that'd make even McClane whistle in awe.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Really now? From what I remember, Dutch was crawling around like a crackhead looking for a crack rock.

Rambo has four movies worth of abuse, of taking punishment and kicking ass.

Gouged arm. Fall from a cliff. Electrical torture. Shot in the side. Shot in the leg. Shot in the shoulder.

He took all this and never slowed down, always kept going and won in the end. The man took out a helicopter with a stone, that'd make even McClane whistle in awe.

He was playing, to lure the Predator into his ingenious trap.

Bargain-Box Billy is tough, but Dutch took hits that would have crushed a man.

Don't bring in McClane, he took out an F35 Lighting, Bargain-Box Billy and his David-like stone toss can't compare.

Originally posted by Robtard
He was playing, to lure the Predator into his ingenious trap.

Bargain-Box Billy is tough, but Dutch took hits that would have crushed a man.

Don't bring in McClane, he took out an F35 Lighting, Bargain-Box Billy and his David-like stone toss can't compare.

Dutch, aka Goldmember, was NOT playing, man. He was crawling because after a few hits he was done.

Schwarzenegger>Stallone but as far as these characters Rambo has the more impressive screen feats. The brief martial arts display and stick fight in Rambo 3 confirm this. Dutch likely lifted more. Doesn't necissarily mean he was in better shape.

Thai stick fighting, dude.

Dutch takes this. Lifted a truck, impaled a man to a door with a simple knife throw, tanked a plasma cannon to the shoulder (which blew off Dillion's arm), a water fall, immediately started setting traps for the Predator despite the pain, took a beating from the Predator, and then immediately after outran and semi-tanked a mini-nuclear explosion. Rambo's tough, but IDK if he's that tough.

Tough one. Rambo is a master hunter and killer, but Dutch beat a Predator at it's own game. I'd say they're pretty equal. But when you factor in Rambo's kill count and it's just no fair.

So I have to go with Rambo.

Edit: Didn't see this is a H2H fight. Dutch ftw then.

Killcount means nothing, because we don't know how Dutch would act in those circumstances (although, IMO, I think Dutch could replicate Rambo's feats based on how he did against the rebels and the Predator)

Originally posted by Lestov16
Killcount means nothing, because we don't know how Dutch would act in those circumstances (although, IMO, I think Dutch could replicate Rambo's feats based on how he did against the rebels and the Predator)

Rambo has more feats. So while they seem pretty equal it's logical to give Rambo the edge in an all-out battle.

H2H fight Rambo wins. Dutch never really did do anything impressive h2h.

Arnold is 6'2" and Sly is 5'10". That's a hell of a lot of reach for H2H, not counting mass.

Keep in mind that Dutch is also a 'Nam vet and an overall veteran of a lot of conflicts. If anyone is a good match for Rambo, it's him.

As I stated before, Dutch is more stronger and durable. TBF, reconsidering how Rambo dispatched the Burmese pirates, he'd probably win a gunfight. But H2H goes to Dutch.

Dutch and easily

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Arnold is 6'2" and Sly is 5'10". That's a hell of a lot of reach for H2H, not counting mass.

Keep in mind that Dutch is also a 'Nam vet and an overall veteran of a lot of conflicts. If anyone is a good match for Rambo, it's him.

Size would probably matter if they were somewhat close in skill. But all Dutch ever did was throw a couple of wild swings and haymakers (unless I'm forgetting something). Unless he's proven any decent sill, Rambo outskills him.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Size would probably matter if they were somewhat close in skill. But all Dutch ever did was throw a couple of wild swings and haymakers (unless I'm forgetting something). Unless he's proven any decent sill, Rambo outskills him. Originally posted by Lestov16
Dutch takes this. Lifted a truck, impaled a man to a door with a simple knife throw, tanked a plasma cannon to the shoulder (which blew off Dillion's arm), a water fall, immediately started setting traps for the Predator despite the pain, took a beating from the Predator, and then immediately after outran and semi-tanked a mini-nuclear explosion. Rambo's tough, but IDK if he's that tough.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Size would probably matter if they were somewhat close in skill. But all Dutch ever did was throw a couple of wild swings and haymakers (unless I'm forgetting something). Unless he's proven any decent sill, Rambo outskills him.

Size usually always matters in a fight. That is why there are weightclasses in all combat sports. Dutch isn't some big muscle bound chump off the street.. he has just as much training if not more than Rambo. They are both special forces guys. So we're talking about very similiar training and styles. Just because Rambo fought some nobody with no feats in a street fight contest means very little. That doesn't prove he's some awesome fighter now. Dutch is bigger.. stronger... and most likely equally skilled.. and imo shown a higher damage soak. This is dutch's fight to lose.. not the other way around.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Size usually always matters in a fight. That is why there are weightclasses in all combat sports. Dutch isn't some big muscle bound chump off the street.. he has just as much training if not more than Rambo. They are both special forces guys. So we're talking about very similiar training and styles. Just because Rambo fought some nobody with no feats in a street fight contest means very little. That doesn't prove he's some awesome fighter now. Dutch is bigger.. stronger... and most likely equally skilled.. and imo shown a higher damage soak. This is dutch's fight to lose.. not the other way around.

Rambo has shown more fighting skills, though. Like when he fought that guy with sticks in Thailand and the big Russian dude in Rambo III.

Yeah and for the fight with the russian guy.. he was LOSING... He won't have a gernade to blow up Dutch.. this is h2h combat only fight.. You can't call that a victory when it wasn't even h2h how he won.. and the h2h part he was losing.. again to a bigger stronger guy.

Has Rambo ever fought anybody strong enough to easily deadlift a truck and durable enough to withstand a beating from an extraterrestial and moments later outrun/semi-tank a mini-nuke? If the Predator couldn't put Dutch down, how is Rambo supposed to?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Size usually always matters in a fight. That is why there are weightclasses in all combat sports. Dutch isn't some big muscle bound chump off the street.. he has just as much training if not more than Rambo. They are both special forces guys. So we're talking about very similiar training and styles. Just because Rambo fought some nobody with no feats in a street fight contest means very little. That doesn't prove he's some awesome fighter now. Dutch is bigger.. stronger... and most likely equally skilled.. and imo shown a higher damage soak. This is dutch's fight to lose.. not the other way around.

Size usually matters in a fight where both combatants are equally skilled. But it is not quite that effective when one combatant is a lot more skilled than you. Besides, Rambo isn't exactly a puny guy. If they fought in the ring they'd both be heavyweights.

Plus like I said, there's still no proof of Dutch's h2h skills. He impaled a guy with a knife. Great. It's h2h, no knife throwing here. He deadlifted the back of a truck. Great. It's h2h, not a powerlifting match.

Dutch is bigger, there's no proof that he's actually stronger. ANd there's no feat that shows that Dutch has great h2h skill. As for damage soak, well, Rambo has 4 movies of tanking a whole load of damage. A lot more than Dutch has.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Has Rambo ever fought anybody strong enough to easily deadlift a truck and durable enough to withstand a beating from an extraterrestial and moments later outrun/semi-tank a mini-nuke? If the Predator couldn't put Dutch down, how is Rambo supposed to?

I'm going to watch Predator again just to make sure, but IIRC Dutch didn't deadlift the entire truck, he simply lifted the back of the truck. And although that's an impressive feat, there are quite a few strong men out there that can easily replicate that feat.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I'm going to watch Predator again just to make sure, but IIRC Dutch didn't deadlift the entire truck, he simply lifted the back of the truck. And although that's an impressive feat, there are quite a few strong men out there that can easily replicate that feat.

Correct. He lifted the back end of the truck a few inches and sent it rolling downhill. Impressive, but not superhuman.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Has Rambo ever fought anybody strong enough to easily deadlift a truck and durable enough to withstand a beating from an extraterrestial and moments later outrun/semi-tank a mini-nuke? If the Predator couldn't put Dutch down, how is Rambo supposed to?

Better question. Has Dutch ever fought anyone at all? Aside from losing to the Predator.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Size usually matters in a fight where both combatants are equally skilled. But it is not quite that effective when one combatant is a lot more skilled than you. Besides, Rambo isn't exactly a puny guy. If they fought in the ring they'd both be heavyweights.

Except that Rambo isn't explicitly 'more skilled'. He just has more 'on screen' feats, of debatable value. It has been many years but I don't recall Rambo outfighting anyone of Dutch's size with training comparable to his own. Both Dutch and Rambo are Nam vets and vets of many battles. Dutch gets a laundry list of accolades in the beginning of Predator and the novelization which supplements the movie goes into even more detail. Plus as has already been noted, Dutch is wicked durable and tough. Rambo isn't going to just punch him three times and win. Aside from having inferior reach and presumably weight, if it ever goes to ground game or submission, Dutch will overpower Rambo rather than the reverse.



Actually, Spec Ops have to have high proficiency with combatives, and these skills translate into survivalability in real world situations. Dutch was not a mountain of muscle who couldn't do H2H. If anything, the implication is that he has comparable training and superior reach, weight, and durability, which doesn't bode well for Rambo.

It won't be a stomp for either party; it will be a brutal, bloody battle. But I give it to Dutch more often than not.



This is rubbish. When did Rambo lift a truck, bro? Even if it's only a few inches, he did it solo, and with the front end, IIRC, on a higher incline.



Just ridiculous survival skills, a long and celebrated career as spec ops from the same era as Rambo, and muscles the size of small children. Really, I find the idea that anyone in such a role could be unused to or non-proficient in H2H/CQC methods to be ridiculous.



Moar movies != moar durability. You must cite an instance against an instance.

For once moosiepoo is on the right side of the fence here... he pretty much covers most of the points in question.

I will only say again...

WHO did rambo beat h2h that was even noteworthy at all? The Vietnam big russian dude.. he didn't beat him h2h.. he pushed him against the electric device made for interrogation. Next, in Rambo three.... he faced another BIG guy.. and this time again.. he didn't defeat him h2h... He was losing the fight and ended up pulling a slick grenade move.. But that doesn't translate to this fight. In BOTH instances he was being overpowered by guys in the league of dutch.. and I would submit.. not as strong as dutch.

Lastly, there is this celebrated scene where he wins a street fight contest against some no name no feats guy.. I'm not sure what is suppose to be impressive about that. So what are we left with... As I said before..

Dutch has just as much training as Rambo if not more, and likely very similiar training at that. Dutch is bigger.. stronger.. longer reach and better durability imo. So again, it would be a good fight.. but it's Dutch's fight to lose.

So what H2H feats does Dutch have other than getting owned by a Predator?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
For once moosiepoo is on the right side of the fence here... he pretty much covers most of the points in question.

I will only say again...

WHO did rambo beat h2h that was even noteworthy at all? The Vietnam big russian dude.. he didn't beat him h2h.. he pushed him against the electric device made for interrogation. Next, in Rambo three.... he faced another BIG guy.. and this time again.. he didn't defeat him h2h... He was losing the fight and ended up pulling a slick grenade move.. But that doesn't translate to this fight. In BOTH instances he was being overpowered by guys in the league of dutch.. and I would submit.. not as strong as dutch.

Lastly, there is this celebrated scene where he wins a street fight contest against some no name no feats guy.. I'm not sure what is suppose to be impressive about that. So what are we left with... As I said before..

Dutch has just as much training as Rambo if not more, and likely very similiar training at that. Dutch is bigger.. stronger.. longer reach and better durability imo. So again, it would be a good fight.. but it's Dutch's fight to lose.

You may not think Rambo's opponents noteworthy, but at least he did fight and beat someone in h2h. Multiple someones. Whom did Dutch beat in h2h? Whom did he fight where he showed some degree of h2h skill?

He got his ass completely beat up by the Pred. And it's not just being overpowered. I could understand that the pred is stronger. But did he show skill by ducking or dodging around the pred's lumberingly slow blows? Did he even throw a decent hook or cross or any sort of proper punch or kick? No. All he did was throw a slow haymaker backhand that any amateur boxer could easily avoid.

So again, show me any feat of Dutch that shows him having some degree of h2h skill.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Except that Rambo isn't explicitly 'more skilled'. He just has more 'on screen' feats, of debatable value. It has been many years but I don't recall Rambo outfighting anyone of Dutch's size with training comparable to his own. Both Dutch and Rambo are Nam vets and vets of many battles.

Rambo beat up an entire police precint barehanded. Granted it was a pretty small precint, but he was still outnumbered by armed and trained men and he beat them up displaying decent h2h skill. What has Dutch done to compare to that?

This is the MvF where we debate by screen feats. You can't assume people have skills just because they say they do.

Originally posted by FrothByte
You may not think Rambo's opponents noteworthy, but at least he did fight and beat someone in h2h. Multiple someones. Whom did Dutch beat in h2h? Whom did he fight where he showed some degree of h2h skill?

He got his ass completely beat up by the Pred. And it's not just being overpowered. I could understand that the pred is stronger. But did he show skill by ducking or dodging around the pred's lumberingly slow blows? Did he even throw a decent hook or cross or any sort of proper punch or kick? No. All he did was throw a slow haymaker backhand that any amateur boxer could easily avoid.

So again, show me any feat of Dutch that shows him having some degree of h2h skill.

Why do you keep saying he got beat up by the predator.. He ended up BEATING the Predator. Again though...

Why do you keep acting like Rambo beat up the big russian guys h2h in 2 or 3? He didn't... The h2h portion of the fight he was LOSING.. and in neither fight did he win via h2h. So again... all we're left with is him beating up some no name street guy in a fight.. and geating up a bunch of police guys with little to no training that we know of? I mean honestly, do you believe Dutch wouldn't ahve manhandled those officers just the same?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Why do you keep saying he got beat up by the predator.. He ended up BEATING the Predator. Again though...

Why do you keep acting like Rambo beat up the big russian guys h2h in 2 or 3? He didn't... The h2h portion of the fight he was LOSING.. and in neither fight did he win via h2h. So again... all we're left with is him beating up some no name street guy in a fight.. and geating up a bunch of police guys with little to no training that we know of? I mean honestly, do you believe Dutch wouldn't ahve manhandled those officers just the same?

That's because he got beat up by the predator. He landed 1 single punch. The only way he beat the predator was because he led it to a trap. That shows great tactical skills, not h2h.

As for Rambo's fight in 3, you're right, he was losing to the big russian. But he still showed way more fighting skill there than Dutch ever did. In Rambo 2 though, he wasn't losing that fight. First time he fought that big russian in 2, there were like 3-4 guys that he beat up, and then that big one takes a swing at him which he ducks, delivers a couple of hook punches, then electrecutes the guy. Later when they fight again on the chopper they grapple and Rambo wins.

Then you seem to skip over the part where he beats up a skilled stick fighter, beats up an entire police precint in Rambo 1, and beats up a couple of random soldiers in both Rambo 2 and 3.

Dutch, for all of his supposed training and immaculate physique, never showed reflexes and agility that showed him capable of ducking and dodging blows. Never showed him delivering any skilled punches or kicks.

Rambo murders him

Originally posted by Psychotron
Aside from losing to the Predator.

He didn't lose to the Predator. He withstood the Predator's superhuman blows and then outran a mini nuke. Can't outrun nuclear blasts if you're "beat". Again, who has Rambo withstood blows from with the strength of the Predator? Who has Rambo fought who can deadlift the back of a truck?

Originally posted by Lestov16
He didn't lose to the Predator. He withstood the Predator's superhuman blows and then outran a mini nuke. Can't outrun nuclear blasts if you're "beat". Again, who has Rambo withstood blows from with the strength of the Predator? Who has Rambo fought who can deadlift the back of a truck?

This isn't just a fight of strength though. It's not a wrestling match. Dutch's supposed strength advantage won't mean anything if he can't even hit Rambo.

He may have withstood the Preds blows, but those blows were slow enough that he shouldn't have had any trouble avoiding them if he had any decent skill. Plus he was limping and crawling away during that fight, showing that those blows really beat him up. As for him outrunning that bomb, well, both Rambo and Dutch have inconsistent feats like that. One second you're limping, the next you're running. Rambo was tortured, starved, and electrocuted for a couple of days and yet when he got loose he was killing people and running like he was in tip top shape.

You ask whom Rambo has fought that's as strong as Dutch? I ask whom Dutch has fought who's as skilled as Rambo.

There is no contest here. Rambo wins

Originally posted by Lestov16
He didn't lose to the Predator. He withstood the Predator's superhuman blows and then outran a mini nuke. Can't outrun nuclear blasts if you're "beat". Again, who has Rambo withstood blows from with the strength of the Predator? Who has Rambo fought who can deadlift the back of a truck?

Yeah, right. That's why he needed the trap to win, right? Arnold beat the Predator at it's own game, not by fighting it, but by out-hunting it. Great tactical feat, but not H2H.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Rambo beat up an entire police precint barehanded. Granted it was a pretty small precint, but he was still outnumbered by armed and trained men and he beat them up displaying decent h2h skill. What has Dutch done to compare to that?

When was this? I'd like to find it on Youtube so I can examine and compare if possible, if this is indeed the case and not taken out of context. Did he get the jump on them? Were all of the cops big buff burly military men? Did he fight them all at once?

Context is pretty important. Dutch is a HUGE guy. I don't think you understand just how big and strong he really is. But in case you did, here's something for you:

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p245/Coolcicada/photo-1.jpg

Arnold lifted a similar weight (in fact, apparently that may even BE him above) of 506 German pounds, which translates to about 560 'Murican. He was Mr. Olympia something like six events consecutively, and weighed on average somewhere around 230-236 lbs.

To compare, here's Rambo's weight:



Source.

Oh hey, look what I found:

http://sylvesterstallone.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/slyarnold-300x206.jpg

There's some obvious height and weight disparity, and again, Dutch is not a mook. He is not a small town cop. He is not a Russian faceless soldier, and he is not a civilian. He is ex-Spec ops with the height and weight of one of the best bodybuilders in history, who probably knows Army combatives, just like Rambo.

So unless you have a video of Rambo killing Spetznaz, I don't see this going anywhere.



No, but I can't assume they balls out suck when I know for a fact they're spec ops, highly trained combatants. Do you know any H2H gimped oversized body building Vietnam vets I can compare Dutch to?

Didn't think so.

Try sticking with some screen feats that you can share with the group. At least give me something, like the precinct thing, to work with and some context. I'll try to Youtube what I can, but Youtube kinda blows lately for some movies.

There were about 3-4 of the police ganging up on him. Most of the others he did get a jump on. There were fat police and fit police, and while I don't believe they're as trained as spec ops they should still be a lot better trained than your average joe

stDpdrKo_lA

I couldn't find a better vid on youtube. And I"m not going to claim it's a super impressive feat, but it's hell of a lot better than anything Dutch has shown.

As for the lifting feat, there's a difference between lifting strength and combative strength. A body builder can probably lift heavier weights than a wrestler, that doesn't mean he can overpower the wrestler.

If the only basis you have of saying "Dutch is stronger" is the truck lifting feat, then that's a pretty weak basis to claim that he'll also be stronger in a fight.

Originally posted by FrothByte
There were about 3-4 of the police ganging up on him. Most of the others he did get a jump on. There were fat police and fit police, and while I don't believe they're as trained as spec ops they should still be a lot better trained than your average joe

stDpdrKo_lA

Thank you for the video.

I've reviewed it (and laughed at the no-audio slow mo scenes, repeating his takedowns), and I stick to my original conclusion. Reasons being the following:

1. None of these guys are comparable in the least.
2. They are not trying to kill him, and are attempting to subdue him miserably.
3. They vary from normal build to slightly overweight build.
4. Most of these takedowns are against unwitting opponents.

It's an excellent display of the disparity between crazed vet Rambo and Joe Cop, but doesn't convince me that Dutch is in serious danger. Now, to reiterate, it would be a brutal beatdown. Dutch isn't going to just flex and Rambo dies, but in 10 battles, Dutch wins something like 7-8 times total. Similar training background, one guy is larger and stronger.



I missed this thanks to your edit.

This statement is pretty ignorant given that I gave a secondary example of Dutch/Arnold's relative strength above with the Bavarian stone-lifting example. 560 lbs pretty much deadlifted. That's pretty definitive. Also, we understand they have similar army H2H backgrounds. You provided me with ONE example which does not hold up to scrutiny.

So I should be asking you; do you have anything from Sly/Rambo to compare?

Since when did lifting strength matter on the outcome of a fight

Thats like saying Ronnie Coleman can kick Bruce Lee's ass.

Originally posted by Supra
Since when did lifting strength matter on the outcome of a fight

Thats like saying Ronnie Coleman can kick Bruce Lee's ass.

Because when two unarmed guys get in close, reach and strength will be decisive, more often than not. This is why Bubba is thought of as a big black guy who rapes you in prison, and not a small sinewy one.

Let's think about this again:

1. You have two Vietnam-era Army veterans, who have pretty much the same base training.
2. You have nothing else to assume any additional training of one over the other.
3. One guy has more reach, weight, and is much bigger all around.
4. You tell me that the smaller guy will win because he knocked around some mall cops trying to detain him.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/28840319.jpg

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ronnie+coleman+vs+bruce+lee

Originally posted by Supra
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ronnie+coleman+vs+bruce+lee

Do Ronnie Coleman and Bruce Lee have the same martial arts background?

Well, we know Rambo is oevrall better trained, but you're right about us not knowing if he had better HTH training.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose


Let's think about this again:

1. You have two Vietnam-era Army veterans, who have pretty much the same base training.
2. You have nothing else to assume any additional training of one over the other.
3. One guy has more reach, weight, and is much bigger all around.
4. You tell me that the smaller guy will win because he knocked around some mall cops trying to detain him.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/28840319.jpg

Let's think about this again:

1. You have two Vietnam-era Army veterans who have pretty much the same base training... but they aren't base level soldiers and we can assume they received higher training.But it really doesn't matter, because similar training does not equate to similar skill.

2. We can't assume that one has had more training than the other. We can however see from multiple examples that Rambo has demonstrated his fighting ability. Dutch has zero feats that demonstrate his fighting ability.

3. One person is bigger, one is smaller. If you automatically assume that the bigger opponent is stronger, then it's just fair to automatically assume that the smaller opponent is faster. Both are key elements to winning a fight.

4. You're only basis for claiming Dutch is stronger is because he deadlifted the rear of a truck. Rambo was able to hang on to a cliff face using only his fingers if memory serves me correct. Both are very good examples of different kinds of strenght.

5. You claim they're only mall cops and may not be that much trained. I agree. That still doesn't change the fact that Rambo has at least demonstrated his fighting ability against able men whereas Dutch has never demonstrated his. Rambo has at least demonstrated that he knows how to evade a punch. Dutch hasn't.

Now let me ask you. What exactly has Dutch done specifically that makes you think he holds the upperhand? He's not winning this fight by deadlifting. And he hasn't shown any feats of fighting skill. So what has he SHOWN specifically that makes you believe he will win?

Dutch dies, its a simple as that, You can't argue with crazy or kill crazy and Rambo is crazy.

The bigger they are the harder they fall.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Let's think about this again:

1. You have two Vietnam-era Army veterans who have pretty much the same base training... but they aren't base level soldiers and we can assume they received higher training.

But you can't verify it for either party. So instead of speculating, go with what you know. The US Army has basic H2H techniques, combatives, CQC, etc. that they train to all their troops. This kind of training is explicitly given more emphasis for spec ops style soldiers, of which Rambo and Dutch both belonged to. They are peers in a very big way and this fight is a better matchup because of it.



Right, which is why I gave Dutch a 70-80% win margin out of 10 fights. I don't have to prove that Dutch dominates conclusively every time; I just have to make an argument for him winning more often than not. In any case, his speed only benefits him if he can pummel before Dutch can react, and avoid in-close where his smaller size would not benefit him as much. Hit and run, basically.

This would go better for your argument if you could demonstrate Rambo defeating someone in H2H who is in the same ballpark as himself/Dutch.



This was reinforced with Arnold's real world feats. If you are applying any kind of consistent logic, you have to agree that the characters directly mirror the physical characteristics of their actors. Arnold can deadlift 560 lbs, and was a body builder for years. His physical strength is immense, and he set records IIRC. Sly, while receiving similar training from Mr. Olympia legend Lou Ferrigno, did not grow as big, for two reasons: he is naturally smaller, and he did not want to be as large. His boxer persona was smaller.

In turns of agility, endurance, and overall fitness, Rambo/Sly at his peak might eclipse Dutch/Arnold.



Right, but he doesn't need insane climbing skills to win this fight. There are great mountain climbers who compete in American Ninja all the time. I don't see them beating anyone else by virtue of strong fingers.



Absence is proof is not proof of absence though. The only person Dutch had to throw down with was the Predator, who has strength far surpassing humans and durability off of the charts. The Predator picks Dutch up by the neck and holds him aloft using one hand.

I would concede this point if Dutch did not have damn near the same training, but he does. He is not a mall cop. He is not a faceless mook. On paper, Rambo and Dutch are very similar, and one is bigger and stronger.

Also, Sly said he would lose to Arnold.

I kid, honestly these days Sly would take Arnold to the cleaners.

You're right, we can't verify it for either party. We have no idea what kind of training they went through. So we go with what we know: FEATS. Rambo has shown fighting skill. Dutch hasn't. It's as simple as that. Just because I went to karate school doesn't mean I can kick ass in a street fight. Just because 2 people went to the same exact training doesn't mean they have similar skill.





Goes both ways dude. You also can't show Dutch defeating, or even fighting against a skilled h2h fighter near Rambo's skill.




Lol. If you really want to start using real actor's physical attributes as a basis for their character's then we can also say that Rambo is definitely more skilled than Dutch because Sly is more skilled than Arnold.




You don't mountain climb in a fight the same way that you don't deadlift in a fight. But deadlifting shows your lifting strength in the same way that that mountain climbing feat showed Rambo's grip strength. And any grappling fighter will tell you that grip strength is a big advantage in a grapppling fight. Two different kinds of strength, both just as important in a fight. so you can't simply say Dutch is "stronger" because of his truck lift and automatically assume that will grant him the win. I said it before and I'll say it again, lifting strength is not equal to combat strength.





Yeah the pred was strong. It was also very slow. And Dutch was unable to showcase any of that h2h skill that you keep insisting he has. Rambo would have danced circles around that Pred. Probably would still lose in pure h2h, but at least he would have given it a better fight and utilized his speed and agility to land a couple of hits. Dutch was completely helpless against it.



On screen, Rambo is a crazy motherf***** who has a lot of feats to back up his "paper". Dutch is all titles.

Besides, if you trully believed that size and strength are such a big factor as long as both fighters have had similar training, well... have you seen the fight between Oscar Dela Hoya and Manny Pacquiao?

Both have had similar training (as would be expected of any world class boxer) and Dela Hoya had a huge size and reach advantage. Still didn't stop Pacquiao from beating him up due to pure skill and speed.

Rambo Wrecks Dutch's Get to the Choppa

Originally posted by FrothByte
You're right, we can't verify it for either party. We have no idea what kind of training they went through. So we go with what we know: FEATS. Rambo has shown fighting skill. Dutch hasn't. It's as simple as that. Just because I went to karate school doesn't mean I can kick ass in a street fight. Just because 2 people went to the same exact training doesn't mean they have similar skill.

Okay, so training does not count/exist because lack of feats? Do you not understand this concept? This isn't 'Feat Wars'; it's coming to a reasonable conclusion based on available evidence. Dutch may lack the amount of evidence, but there's nothing to suggest he is a pushover as you are implying, and the only people you've shown me Rambo can defeat I could probably beat up, so there's that.

Fact: Both are Vietnam-era peers, with similar training. This is not suddenly a non-issue because Dutch doesn't overwhelm a half dozen mooks of questionable value. It's still a valid piece of evidence. You can downplay this all you want, but it exists.



Okay, so stalemate. I rely on the additional information; if neither can be conclusively shown to be better, Dutch is bigger and stronger and has the reach.

Happy?



This is unreal that you could come to this conclusion based off of what I said.

Let's keep this simple, since I don't want to lose you in your battle to ignore anything valid I might say:

Physically, Dutch and Rambo are identical to their actors, because of the super super obvious principle of "they are portrayed by their actors". For this reason alone, when considering physical attributes like their height, weight, eye color, etc. we consider the actors as valid because... they ARE them.

We do NOT arbitrarily assign knowledge, talents, or other values that are not strictly physical. In other words, we wouldn't say "Arnold is super smart, and therefore Dutch would outsmart Rambo" or "Sly is a knows boxing because he trained for Rocky film series".

This is not a complicated thought process.



That's a valid point, but you didn't present it that way and you provided zero context. However, deadlifting is a facet of Arnold's superior strength, which is kind of the point. If someone is trying to batter me into paste or wrestle me into submission, their superior strength is probably going to be a factor, more than my iron tiger grip.



Dutch knew after the Predator broke the log with its forearm that he wasn't going to win the fight, and his subsequent punch confirmed it. Dancing around like a fool, considering his fatigue and situation, would be pretty stupid. I just rewatched the fight. He didn't sit there like a tool. He was in disbelief at how strong the Pred was and then his face was being pummeled. End of melee.



If this is so obvious and you have so much proof, bring it here. I'll concede the moment you provide something viable. If you insist that Rambo could surpass Dutch in facing the Predator, I could easily say Dutch could manhandle the cops too. We seem to have equal proof in that regard.



Neither of which is trained to kill the other by the same army? Because that's just so relevant.



Right, but in boxing the smaller fighter can get in close and ruin the reach advantage without being put in a sleeper hold and never waking up again. It's not quite the same situation. Rocky was the underdog and small fry in the fight against 6'3", 235 lbs Ivan Drago, and he did well once he got inside of the reach. That's boxing basics.

Army H2H is not boxing. It has different focuses, does not adhere to rules in real-world situations, and is meant to kill the other guy as soon as possible. So a little guy cannot just go into the reach of a bigger fighter and win using the magical speed of whatever. If Rambo is singled out for being an uber grappler, or is shown taking out anyone even remotely within his range, then I'll concede the point just to have had some evidence to satisfy things. I can link you to the Dutch fight, but you're not impressed so what difference does it make?

If you take two guys with similar training to kill people with H2H, and one is bigger, who is the favored fighter? The guy with more movies?

K.

Originally posted by Supra
Rambo Wrecks Dutch's Get to the Choppa

Go get 'em, cheerleader.

@StealthMoose

Saying Dutch is incapable of H2H because we didn't see it onscreen is comparable to saying Dutch is incapable of urination because we didn't see it onscreen.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Well, we know Rambo is oevrall better trained, but you're right about us not knowing if he had better HTH training.

We know Rambo is overall better trained? how do we know this?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
We know Rambo is overall better trained? how do we know this?

Because he actually fights people h2h? Dutch didn't do shit in h2h, anything people say about his skills is pure speculation.

Originally posted by FrothByte
You're right, we can't verify it for either party. We have no idea what kind of training they went through. So we go with what we know: FEATS. Rambo has shown fighting skill. Dutch hasn't. It's as simple as that. Just because I went to karate school doesn't mean I can kick ass in a street fight. Just because 2 people went to the same exact training doesn't mean they have similar skill.





Goes both ways dude. You also can't show Dutch defeating, or even fighting against a skilled h2h fighter near Rambo's skill.




Lol. If you really want to start using real actor's physical attributes as a basis for their character's then we can also say that Rambo is definitely more skilled than Dutch because Sly is more skilled than Arnold.




You don't mountain climb in a fight the same way that you don't deadlift in a fight. But deadlifting shows your lifting strength in the same way that that mountain climbing feat showed Rambo's grip strength. And any grappling fighter will tell you that grip strength is a big advantage in a grapppling fight. Two different kinds of strength, both just as important in a fight. so you can't simply say Dutch is "stronger" because of his truck lift and automatically assume that will grant him the win. I said it before and I'll say it again, lifting strength is not equal to combat strength.





Yeah the pred was strong. It was also very slow. And Dutch was unable to showcase any of that h2h skill that you keep insisting he has. Rambo would have danced circles around that Pred. Probably would still lose in pure h2h, but at least he would have given it a better fight and utilized his speed and agility to land a couple of hits. Dutch was completely helpless against it.



On screen, Rambo is a crazy motherf***** who has a lot of feats to back up his "paper". Dutch is all titles.

Besides, if you trully believed that size and strength are such a big factor as long as both fighters have had similar training, well... have you seen the fight between Oscar Dela Hoya and Manny Pacquiao?

Both have had similar training (as would be expected of any world class boxer) and Dela Hoya had a huge size and reach advantage. Still didn't stop Pacquiao from beating him up due to pure skill and speed.

Did you just use the Pac vs. Mayweather fight as any kind of reference for anything? This tells me you literally have no idea what you're talking about with this analogy. Oscar was WAY past his pime when he fought Pac.. while Pac was prime or close to prime. Plus you're also forgetting that not only was Oscar not prime.. he was FORCED via contract.. that he couldn't come in above the catch weight Roach and Pac had set. This carch weight was a weight Oscar hadn't seen in many years... He was weight drained just trying ot make the BS weight stipulation the Pac camp came up with. Not only that, but Oscar isn't big over Pac.. like Dutch is over Rambo.. Not even close to comparable. You were better of using a number of other fights I won't even mention.

Next, it seems some of you have never been in real life fights.. more times than not.. fight go to the ground or to a grappling phase of the fight. This is where arnolds strength would translate very well... If he got a hold of Rambo.. he would literally be able to ragdoll him all over the place and take the fight where he wants. Not saying it will be easy.. but this is exactly where strength can and does come into play in a fight.

Again, just reference the fight in Rambo 3... rambo foght a slower than Arnold guy.. who is a big bruising guy like you're trying to make dutch out to be. Rabmo was losing that fight until the grenade trick.. there are no grenades here. Point is, that guy was able to land blows on Rambo... yet some of the arguments I've been seeing is how rambo's speed and agility with me Dutch won't land... well that russian guy seems just fine landing blows and taking the fight to rambo and using his size to dominate.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Because he actually fights people h2h? Dutch didn't do shit in h2h, anything people say about his skills is pure speculation.

That premise doesn't support your conclusion though... We don't KNOW Rambo is better trained do we? Rambo being in more fights doesn't make him better trained. That's like me saying Dutch is better trained to take mini nuke explosions.. cause look he took one and rambo didn't... ummm okay... Absence of proof isn't proof.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
We know Rambo is overall better trained? how do we know this?

Because we see Rambo doing things like driving tanks and flying helicopters, while Dutch showed no such abilities.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That premise doesn't support your conclusion though... We don't KNOW Rambo is better trained do we? Rambo being in more fights doesn't make him better trained. That's like me saying Dutch is better trained to take mini nuke explosions.. cause look he took one and rambo didn't... ummm okay... Absence of proof isn't proof.

It's like this. We've seen Rambo fight so his skills are known. We have not seen Dutch fight so we don't know what he can do. It's possible that he's better than Rambo, but it's also possible that's he's far worse. And given their similar training, experience, hunting skills, and peak physical conditioning it's only logical to bet on the guy who we actually know is good.

Originally posted by Psychotron
It's like this. We've seen Rambo fight so his skills are known. We have not seen Dutch fight so we don't know what he can do. It's possible that he's better than Rambo, but it's also possible that's he's far worse. And given their similar training, experience, hunting skills, and peak physical conditioning it's only logical to bet on the guy who we actually know is good.

Which is why we need some H2H feats for Rambo that say he can contend with someone within his own expertise range. Getting the drop on some average joe cops who are trying to subdue him peacefully isn't a great showing, and if what KT is saying is correct, Rambo had a poor showing against a guy Dutch's approximate size, training unknown at this point.

We already established they have similar training. Dutch is bigger, more reach, etc. More feats = more win is making a quantity over quality style argument.

Originally posted by Lestov16
@StealthMoose

Saying Dutch is incapable of H2H because we didn't see it onscreen is comparable to saying Dutch is incapable of urination because we didn't see it onscreen.

That was actually going to be my next point. I mean, we don't see Dutch shave on screen. OMG HE MUST BE ALWAYS CLEAN SHAVEN!

Dela Hoya is only 5 yrs older than Pacquaio. At the time of that fight, Dela Hoya was like what, 34? Past his prime but not way past his prime like you're implying. And by the time fight night came about he had put on a lot more weight already.

But ok, if you don't like that example then you can go with Tim Sylvia vs. Randy Couture. Sylvia had a 7 inch height advantage, about 60 lbs of weight advantage and about 8 yrs age advantage. Didn't stop Couture from beating him through sheer skill. And then you have Tim Sylvia vs. Marius Pudzianowski. Marius who is a multi time strongman champion and weighs in at over 300 lbs. He outweighed Sylvia by 40 lbs and I don't think Sylvia can do half the strongman feats that Marius does. Guess what, Sylvia won, proving that strength isn't all that matters in a fight.



Lol. I think you're the one who's never been in a real life fight, or maybe you're mistaking real life fights for UFC fights. I've been in 3 fights and 2 brawls, and none of them ever went to the ground. Neither have most of the ones I've witnessed first hand. You wanna know why? Because the ground is a very bad place to be in a real fight. The ground is usually uneven with lots of obstacles in the way and is a good way to get stomped on. Grappling is very useful in a cage match with rules, but you try to grapple in the streets and nothing is protecting you from an eyepoke or a bite or a knee to the crotch or a stomp on the head. I'm not saying grappling isn't used in a street fight, but majority of the time fighters would rather finish it standing up.



Uhuh, the guy who got the jump on Rambo? That the one you're referring to? Are we assuming that Dutch will also get the jump on Rambo? Besides, that big "bruiser" guy at least showed he can fight. What has Dutch done?

I'm not saying Dutch has no training whatsoever or that he's just an average joe at fighting, but based on what we've seen (or not seen) he doesn't seem to employ any fighting techniques that I can see and seems to use brute force over speed/technique.

Let's be honest here. You only have 2 reasons why you're saying Dutch wins:

1. He's bigger, therefore he must be stronger
2. He's spec ops, therefore he must be as skilled a fighter as Rambo if not more so.... despite the fact that he never has shown such skills.

You know, 2 people can go through the same exact training and still not be as skilled as each other. That's just ridiculous.

So basically what all your reasoning boils down to is: assumption. You "assume" that Dutch is stronger and you "assume" that he's a good fighter.

But you know, that's your opinion and I can respect that. You want to place your bet on the fighter who "looks" good, that's fine. Personally, I'd prefer to put my bet on the fighter who's "shown" himself to be good.

This is like saying Dutch beats Bruce Lee.

Bruce Lee wrecks him..

Rambo is Bruce Lee on steroids and homicidal maniac.

Rambo Wins.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Which is why we need some H2H feats for Rambo that say he can contend with someone within his own expertise range. Getting the drop on some average joe cops who are trying to subdue him peacefully isn't a great showing, and if what KT is saying is correct, Rambo had a poor showing against a guy Dutch's approximate size, training unknown at this point.

We already established they have similar training. Dutch is bigger, more reach, etc. More feats = more win is making a quantity over quality style argument.



That was actually going to be my next point. I mean, we don't see Dutch shave on screen. OMG HE MUST BE ALWAYS CLEAN SHAVEN!

We already established they have similar training? Where have we established that? Did they come from the same training camp? Were they in the same military division? Rambo spent time fighting and living in Thailand (or was it Burma?) where he learned to stick fight. Did Dutch have the same training?

I agree that quantity over quality is a stupid argument. However in this case, both quantity and quality favor Rambo. He's the one with more feats and he's the one with better feats. If you can show me a single feat which shows Dutch's "quality" fighting skills then I'll change my mind.

As for that big russian guy that Rambo had problems with in Rambo 3, that guy got the jump on him. Are we assuming Dutch gets the jump on Rambo in this fight as well?

Rocky kicked that russian's ass.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Which is why we need some H2H feats for Rambo that say he can contend with someone within his own expertise range. Getting the drop on some average joe cops who are trying to subdue him peacefully isn't a great showing, and if what KT is saying is correct, Rambo had a poor showing against a guy Dutch's approximate size, training unknown at this point.

We already established they have similar training. Dutch is bigger, more reach, etc. More feats = more win is making a quantity over quality style argument.



That was actually going to be my next point. I mean, we don't see Dutch shave on screen. OMG HE MUST BE ALWAYS CLEAN SHAVEN!

This is absurd. You want the guy with some actual feats to prove he's as good as a guy without any? This is not how it works. You have to find something to prove that Dutch is as good as Rambo. Get serious.

And Dutch wasn't clean shaven btw.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Dela Hoya is only 5 yrs older than Pacquaio. At the time of that fight, Dela Hoya was like what, 34? Past his prime but not way past his prime like you're implying. And by the time fight night came about he had put on a lot more weight already.

But ok, if you don't like that example then you can go with Tim Sylvia vs. Randy Couture. Sylvia had a 7 inch height advantage, about 60 lbs of weight advantage and about 8 yrs age advantage. Didn't stop Couture from beating him through sheer skill. And then you have Tim Sylvia vs. Marius Pudzianowski. Marius who is a multi time strongman champion and weighs in at over 300 lbs. He outweighed Sylvia by 40 lbs and I don't think Sylvia can do half the strongman feats that Marius does. Guess what, Sylvia won, proving that strength isn't all that matters in a fight.



Lol. I think you're the one who's never been in a real life fight, or maybe you're mistaking real life fights for UFC fights. I've been in 3 fights and 2 brawls, and none of them ever went to the ground. Neither have most of the ones I've witnessed first hand. You wanna know why? Because the ground is a very bad place to be in a real fight. The ground is usually uneven with lots of obstacles in the way and is a good way to get stomped on. Grappling is very useful in a cage match with rules, but you try to grapple in the streets and nothing is protecting you from an eyepoke or a bite or a knee to the crotch or a stomp on the head. I'm not saying grappling isn't used in a street fight, but majority of the time fighters would rather finish it standing up.



Uhuh, the guy who got the jump on Rambo? That the one you're referring to? Are we assuming that Dutch will also get the jump on Rambo? Besides, that big "bruiser" guy at least showed he can fight. What has Dutch done?

I'm not saying Dutch has no training whatsoever or that he's just an average joe at fighting, but based on what we've seen (or not seen) he doesn't seem to employ any fighting techniques that I can see and seems to use brute force over speed/technique.

Let's be honest here. You only have 2 reasons why you're saying Dutch wins:

1. He's bigger, therefore he must be stronger
2. He's spec ops, therefore he must be as skilled a fighter as Rambo if not more so.... despite the fact that he never has shown such skills.

You know, 2 people can go through the same exact training and still not be as skilled as each other. That's just ridiculous.

So basically what all your reasoning boils down to is: assumption. You "assume" that Dutch is stronger and you "assume" that he's a good fighter.

But you know, that's your opinion and I can respect that. You want to place your bet on the fighter who "looks" good, that's fine. Personally, I'd prefer to put my bet on the fighter who's "shown" himself to be good.

The difference between 29 and 34 can be immesne... Pac was in his physical prime... Hoya wasn't. Further, Pac was growning into his body and moving up in weight as all the great fighters do.. that was what he was in the process of doing before he fought Hoya and when he fought him. Hoya on the otherhand had ALREADY done his moving up phase and by then a part time fighter just looking for big money fights.

Lastly, hoya WASN'T allowed to hydrate and get back some weight because the other part of the stip Roach and Pac made him sign was SAME DAY weigh-in to prevent him from putting on more points the night before. The whole thing was a shame and bs,.

You listed the Sylvia fight and I could go into more context of that fight.. but I won't.. I'll just have to say this one thing.. I could name 25 fights of people moving up to face bigger people and losing compared to ever ONE fight you could name where the little guy wins. If you want to get into a fight naming game.. you will lose and lose big. There is a reason for weight classes in combat sports..it's not a marketing ploy. Like the say goes.. when you have two equally or close to equally skilled fighters fighting and one is bigger than the other.. the bigger guy usually wins. A good big guy usually beat a good small guy... It's a saying for a reason. Which oddly enough.. is the case with this fight in question.

now I know you've never been in a real life fight... Many fights end up GRAPPLING is what I was saying.. Most fights are boxing matches... at one point or another.. somebody tries to get ahold of the other guy or take him down.. That is just how it goes the majority of the time. Even saying that isn't so.. tells me you haven't witnessed many fights nor been in many fights.

So now the big russian guy can fight just cause he fought Rambo.. yet has no other feats of note.. nor do we know his training... odd. Point is though, that he might have got the jump on him.. but Rambo was given space and time to recover and the big guy STILL was able to dominate Rambo with his size.. even when Rambo was given space. Why wouldn't dutch do the same thing?

I like how you say we ASSUME Dutch is stronger.. there is no assumption about that.. he IS stronger than Rambo.. In fact, using your logic.. he has the FEATSORZ to prove it and Rambo doesn't.. Remember the truck dead lift thing? What has rambo done that equals that. This is just using your logic. Forgetting that line of thought though... we clearly know Arnold is stronger than Sly.. this isn't an assumption it's a fact.

What we're are left with is simply.. A good big guy usually beats a good little guy.

And I don't disagree. A good big guy will almost always beat a good small guy. Except in this case, we don't really have any clue how good Dutch is. Actually we do, we know he's not great at ducking/dodging nor is he good at delivering proper punches or kicks. So unless you can prove that he's actually good, it will basically be a big guy vs. a good smaller guy (and Rambo isn't exactly small).



Uhuh, sure. Go ahead and kid yourself. You've probably seen a couple of schoolyard fights that end on the ground and you mistake that for real life fights. Next time you ever see a serious street fight, pay attention. Yes they can go to the ground and they can grapple, but majority of the time the fighters will stay at striking distance.



Let me break down the fight for you. The russian guy got the drop on Rambo, beat him up a bit, but Rambo was able to reverse the fight due to his fighting skill and dominate. Then he got caught in a bear hug that squeezed his alread injured side (from the wound that he later cauterized) and was causing him to black out. Rambo isn't some invincible fighter, but everything he showed thus far is way better than anything Dutch has. That russian fighter was the only fighter that Rambo came close to losing against, and that's what makes him a decent fighter. Rambo has fought big opponents before (see Rambo 2) and didn't experience the same amount of difficulty.

Why wouldn't Dutch do the same? Because, like I keep repeating, you really don't know what Dutch is capable of. Just because he's big doens't mean he can do something.



Holding on to a cliff face using just his finger tips... different form of strength but equally if not more impressive. But hey, grip strength won't win Rambo the fight, just like lifting strength won't win Dutch the fight. In the end, lifting and grip strength does not equate to combat strength. If that was the case then Marius PUdzianowski should be overpowering opponents left and right.




What you're left with basically is a big guy who has impressive muscles and with one impressive deadlift feat that automatically makes you assume he's very strong and that he's an awesome h2h fighter without any feats to back it up.

vs.

A smaller guy who has some decent strength feats of his own who proven himself to be a pretty good h2h fighter.

You want to go with size, that's fine. I'm going with skill. If Dutch had shown any decent h2h skills then I'd automatically go with the big guy (just like Thor vs. Bruce Wayne). But in this case, all Dutch has going for him is his bigger size, and it's not even such a big difference. No thank you.

Originally posted by Psychotron
This is absurd. You want the guy with some actual feats to prove he's as good as a guy without any? This is not how it works. You have to find something to prove that Dutch is as good as Rambo. Get serious.

And Dutch wasn't clean shaven btw.

As Lestov said and I said, absence of tons of H2H on-screen doesn't mean he's a mook. Rambo's H2H 'feats' that have been brought to the table include the cops (which I reviewed and commented on) and the Russian, which I apparently had to go find for myself:

Rambo versus Russian Soldier Kourov.

Now, how recently have you seen this fight? Rambo does a good sleeper hold, and his grappling technique is good. I approve of this. But he is not winning by virtue of his lightning speed. The Russian gets a few blows and throws, etc. off on him, and furthermore Rambo won because he had a pit, some rope, and a grenade.

In other words, the fight ended because Rambo successfully used the environment to his advantage. Not because he bested the other guy in melee. If you ask me, Rambo was doing better with holds and strikes, but Kourov beat him up badly and so on.

After reviewing the new evidence, Rambo's grappling ability is strong and I think he better demonstrates his ability in this fight, pushing the odds more in his favor. So he wins say, 6-7 times out of 10. This is a huge push in his direction, but Kourov is comparably strong and a military trained opponent.

Originally posted by Psychotron
This is absurd. You want the guy with some actual feats to prove he's as good as a guy without any? This is not how it works. You have to find something to prove that Dutch is as good as Rambo. Get serious.

And Dutch wasn't clean shaven btw.

1. Except that all I had been given was Rambo flailing at some average joe cops who weren't trying to murder him with army trained H2H. Also, people seem to think that being a highly trained Vietnam spec ops means people can beat you by virtue of beating up aforementioned mall cops. Or that by having a lot of movies and people just saying "HE WINS CUZ MOAR FEATS VERSUS NO FEATS" is a logical argument, when evidence exists that the "NO FEAT" guy has "training".

I reviewed new evidence, which I had to dig up myself because apparently you were too busy being awesome to provide it in defense of your own assertion. I changed my mind, because I'm not an unreasonable ass.

2. Dutch being clean shaven is a joke. Some people have no sense of humor.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
As Lestov said and I said, absence of tons of H2H on-screen doesn't mean he's a mook. Rambo's H2H 'feats' that have been brought to the table include the cops (which I reviewed and commented on) and the Russian, which I apparently had to go find for myself:

Rambo versus Russian Soldier Kourov.

Now, how recently have you seen this fight? Rambo does a good sleeper hold, and his grappling technique is good. I approve of this. But he is not winning by virtue of his lightning speed. The Russian gets a few blows and throws, etc. off on him, and furthermore Rambo won because he had a pit, some rope, and a grenade.

In other words, the fight ended because Rambo successfully used the environment to his advantage. Not because he bested the other guy in melee. If you ask me, Rambo was doing better with holds and strikes, but Kourov beat him up badly and so on.

After reviewing the new evidence, Rambo's grappling ability is strong and I think he better demonstrates his ability in this fight, pushing the odds more in his favor. So he wins say, 6-7 times out of 10. This is a huge push in his direction, but Kourov is comparably strong and a military trained opponent.



1. Except that all I had been given was Rambo flailing at some average joe cops who weren't trying to murder him with army trained H2H. Also, people seem to think that being a highly trained Vietnam spec ops means people can beat you by virtue of beating up aforementioned mall cops. Or that by having a lot of movies and people just saying "HE WINS CUZ MOAR FEATS VERSUS NO FEATS" is a logical argument, when evidence exists that the "NO FEAT" guy has "training".

I reviewed new evidence, which I had to dig up myself because apparently you were too busy being awesome to provide it in defense of your own assertion. I changed my mind, because I'm not an unreasonable ass.

2. Dutch being clean shaven is a joke. Some people have no sense of humor.

It's worth pointing out that Rambo was shot when he was fighting the Russian. He still did well. And those cops were beating him, that's why he snapped and beat the shit out of them. Like it or not, beating up mall cops is still a feat. Dutch doesn't even have that.

I like Dutch, I really do, and I know he's a badass, but until he has some solid h2h feats we can't really speculate on his fighting ability. If this was Rambo vs. Dutch in a jungle hunting match it would be far more equal and interesting imo.

I'm curious moosie... what grappling skills did he display? In the majority of the grappling portions of the fight he was tossed around? That isn't showing good grappling. Him getting on top of the guy and putting him in a sleeper hold.. again isn't good grappling at all.. it's a move we do messing around with friends as young kids with no training. Him grabbing the guys face and pulling at it to break or hold or gain the advantage.. again isn't a good grappling move.. it's a move out of desperation. Lastly, Rambo didn't even want to go h2h.. he tried to pull a knife out.. and was quickly disarmed for his troubles. That makes him look worse. Seeing this again and refreshing my memory further convinces me Dutch wins.. not the other way around.

Psychotron, you reply was amiable and I understand where you're coming from. Also, I agree in a jungle hunt scenario this would make a good movie, much less a versus thread.

KT, I earlier said I would concede my position if evidence came about of Rambo doing good against a comparable opponent. While it's not a Dutch clone it's a good fight that I found, and while I personally still favor Dutch the evidence is in Rambo's favor. So the debate, for me, is over. The evidence was found, and I must stick to my condition.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Psychotron, you reply was amiable and I understand where you're coming from. Also, I agree in a jungle hunt scenario this would make a good movie, much less a versus thread.


Shame they never made one while they were still young. An 80s team-up movie with them would have been epic.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Shame they never made one while they were still young. An 80s team-up movie with them would have been epic.

It would have. Arnold has let himself go. Conversely, Sly is still in pretty good shape, considering his age. Watched Expendables 2, and man, Dolph's legs look so tiny.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It would have. Arnold has let himself go. Conversely, Sly is still in pretty good shape, considering his age. Watched Expendables 2, and man, Dolph's legs look so tiny.

If they made the Expendables in the 80s or early 90s it would have been insanely huge. Avengers huge.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Psychotron, you reply was amiable and I understand where you're coming from. Also, I agree in a jungle hunt scenario this would make a good movie, much less a versus thread.

KT, I earlier said I would concede my position if evidence came about of Rambo doing good against a comparable opponent. While it's not a Dutch clone it's a good fight that I found, and while I personally still favor Dutch the evidence is in Rambo's favor. So the debate, for me, is over. The evidence was found, and I must stick to my condition.

No issue there bud... I was just wondering WHAT about that fight impressed you... You said Rambo's grappling ability.. which is what I was finding odd. When I watch the fight.. Rambo showed very little grappling skills. Tying a rope around somebody or choking them like we did when kids with no training.. isn't a good grappling. Neither is losing said dominate position like Rambo ended up doing. Him ripping at the guys face while in close.. again isn't good grappling. Neither is getting ragdolled tossed. To say nothign of pulling a knife and getting disarmed. So what I'm trying to find is what specifically impressed you. I actually refreshed my memory and further confirmed why I believe Dutch would win.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Because we see Rambo doing things like driving tanks and flying helicopters, while Dutch showed no such abilities.

Absence of proof isn't proof... When did dutch fail and being able to fly a helicopter or drive a tank. That's like me saying that Dutch is better trained in tactics and traps because I never saw Rambo be able to set traps against somebody as skilled as the pradator.. therefore he couldn't. Doesn't work that way. So point me to the scense where Dutch wasn't able to fly a chopper or drive a tank

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Absence of proof isn't proof... When did dutch fail and being able to fly a helicopter or drive a tank. That's like me saying that Dutch is better trained in tactics and traps because I never saw Rambo be able to set traps against somebody as skilled as the pradator.. therefore he couldn't. Doesn't work that way. So point me to the scense where Dutch wasn't able to fly a chopper or drive a tank


By all means, post proof that Dutch can fly a helicopter or drive a tank.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Absence of proof isn't proof... When did dutch fail and being able to fly a helicopter or drive a tank. That's like me saying that Dutch is better trained in tactics and traps because I never saw Rambo be able to set traps against somebody as skilled as the pradator.. therefore he couldn't. Doesn't work that way. So point me to the scense where Dutch wasn't able to fly a chopper or drive a tank

Yeah, and you've never seen me have a threesome with Natalie Portman and Mila Kunis. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Yeah, and you've never seen me have a threesome with Natalie Portman and Mila Kunis. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

To further your point, Rambo was never shown creating a universe, doesn't mean he can't do it.

Originally posted by Silent Master
By all means, post proof that Dutch can fly a helicopter or drive a tank.

You said he was better trained because he did somethign Dutch was never shown to do.. that isn't how critical thinking arguments work. Absence of proof isn't proof. You would have to show dutch NOT being able to fly a helicopter or drive a tank in order to make such a claim. This NEVER happened. If you have some deleted scene I don't post it. If not, than you have no clue whether he can or can't drive a tank or chopper. he was never given a chance or shown that he couldn't. So post the scene where he wasn't able to to support your claim that he's better trained.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You said he was better trained because he did somethign Dutch was never shown to do.. that isn't how critical thinking arguments work. Absence of proof isn't proof. You would have to show dutch NOT being able to fly a helicopter or drive a tank in order to make such a claim. This NEVER happened. If you have some deleted scene I don't post it. If not, than you have no clue whether he can or can't drive a tank or chopper. he was never given a chance or shown that he couldn't. So post the scene where he wasn't able to to support your claim that he's better trained.

Unless you can show that Dutch was also a trained tank driver and helicopter pilot...then Rambo was better trained.

you still don't know how arguments work and the logical progession they follow.. okay no worries.. but get back to me when you find that scene was dutch was unable to fly chopper or drive a tank.. I'll be waiting.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
you still don't know how arguments work and the logical progession they follow.. okay no worries.. but get back to me when you find that scene was dutch was unable to fly chopper or drive a tank.. I'll be waiting.

Prove that Rambo doesn't have magic powers.

You said Dutch couldn't do those things... I'll await the proof of where this was shown.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You said Dutch couldn't do those things... I'll await the proof of where this was shown.

No, I said that Dutch showed no such abilities...which is true..so if you're going to claim that he has the ability, it's up to you to provide proof.

No you said Ramob was better trained.. YOU need to support your claim... Dutch not doing something DOESN'T prove your case. Not how evidence and support work. You said you KNOW rambo is better trained.. you made such a claim based on Dutch not being shown doing something.. That is how proof works... You'd have to show dutch UNABLE to do something.. this wasn't the case. So again, I'm waiting on yoru proof that Rambo was better trained in things like flying chopper or driving tanks etc.

I guess dutch is better trained at making weapons since he made a bow and arrow out of materials he found in the forest and some gun powder. I also don't think Rocky can take a piss since I never saw him take a piss... he must not be able to do that. See how that works, or in this case, doesn't work.

You can't prove a negative. You can't prove Dutch can't drive a tank just like you can't prove unicorns don't exist. Doesn't mean that they do, and it doesn't mean that Dutch can drive a tank unless we see it. If you claim that Dutch is as skilled as Rambo than the burden on proof is on you.

Originally posted by Silent Master
No, I said that Dutch showed no such abilities...which is true..so if you're going to claim that he has the ability, it's up to you to provide proof.

I did support my claim, I named two types of training that Dutch wasn't shown to have.

Originally posted by Psychotron
You can't prove a negative. You can't prove Dutch can't drive a tank just like you can't prove unicorns don't exist. Doesn't mean that they do, and it doesn't mean that Dutch can drive a tank unless we see it. If you claim that Dutch is as skilled as Rambo than the burden on proof is on you.

Follow the discussion before interjecting your opinion. I never made ANY claim. Silent made the claim that Rambo was better trained since we saw him drive a tank and helicopter and dutch wasn't shown doing so. That doesn't prove his conclusion at all and that is the point I'm making. I'm waiting for the scene where dutch was unable to fly a chopper or tank and given the chance. Just like it would be idiotic for me to say Psychotron can't have sex.. well because.. I've never seen him have sex. Doesn' twork that way.. that doesn't prove my premise or conclusion. Absence of proof isn't proof.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I did support my claim, I named two types of training that Dutch wasn't shown to have.

Really.. how was he not shown to have it? SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM.. Show me the scene where Dutch couldn't fly a chopper or tank or show the narration where Dutch comments on ont having training in those areas.. Simple. Now support your claim.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Really.. how was he not shown to have it? SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM.. Show me the scene where Dutch couldn't fly a chopper or tank or show the narration where Dutch comments on ont having training in those areas.. Simple. Now support your claim.

Rambo was shown to have the training to both drive a tank and fly a helicopter, Dutch showed no such training.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Follow the discussion before interjecting your opinion. I never made ANY claim. Silent made the claim that Rambo was better trained since we saw him drive a tank and helicopter and dutch wasn't shown doing so. That doesn't prove his conclusion at all and that is the point I'm making. I'm waiting for the scene where dutch was unable to fly a chopper or tank and given the chance. Just like it would be idiotic for me to say Psychotron can't have sex.. well because.. I've never seen him have sex. Doesn' twork that way.. that doesn't prove my premise or conclusion. Absence of proof isn't proof.

It doesn't work that way. We've seen Rambo do those things, we haven't Dutch do them. These skills aren't something just everyone knows. This isn't like having sex, or taking a piss, or whatever. Operating these machines takes a lot of training, and we can't just assume Dutch can do these things, because he's a badass.

I never said he could or couldn't.. WHAT I AM SAYING is it was never shown that he couldn't. Period. What I'm also claiming is.. Dutch isn't a carpenter and thus probably wouldn't be trained in flying a chopper or tank... Dutch is a highly trained Special Operations member. He was a veteran of Nam and clear presented as one of the best of the best of the special forces. He was the commander of his unit which again implies being badass as one of the best of the best. Thus it's far more likely dutch has received training ni flying a chopper than a bus driver would. So me not wanting to exclude the possibility that he very well could be trained in such things is far more sound than some joe schmoe. In either case, my only piont is and has been... Dutch not being shown doing something doesn't mean he can't nor does it mean Rambo is better trained like suggested.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Rambo was shown to have the training to both drive a tank and fly a helicopter, Dutch showed no such training.

Dutch was trained by the same people (Green Berets) as Rambo was. Just because he didn't come into a situation that required those skills in the brief 2 hours we saw him doesn't mean he's incapable of doing. Characters have lives outside of what we see on screen. It's logical to assume Dutch would share Rambo's skillset since they were trained by the same unit.

Also, Rambo was only in the military for 10 years (1964-1974), two of which were spent in captivity. Dutch was in the military for 13 (1967-1980), and that's not including his merc work. Dutch not only has longer military experience, but more advanced skill, since he's trained in tactics not around during Rambo's time. Saying Dutch isn't trained in the things Rambo is simply because he didn't display during the brief 2 hours we saw him is utterly ridiculous. That's like saying Dutch is incapable of driving a station wagon just because we never saw his driver's silence.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Dutch was trained by the same people (Green Berets) as Rambo was. Just because he didn't come into a situation that required those skills in the brief 2 hours we saw him doesn't mean he's incapable of doing. Characters have lives outside of what we see on screen. It's logical to assume Dutch would share Rambo's skillset since they were trained by the same unit.

So basically, you're claiming that all Green Berets are trained in driving tanks and flying helicopters?

Originally posted by Lestov16
Dutch was trained by the same people (Green Berets) as Rambo was. Just because he didn't come into a situation that required those skills in the brief 2 hours we saw him doesn't mean he's incapable of doing. Characters have lives outside of what we see on screen. It's logical to assume Dutch would share Rambo's skillset since they were trained by the same unit.

Also, Rambo was only in the military for 10 years (1964-1974), two of which were spent in captivity. Dutch was in the military for 13 (1967-1980), and that's not including his merc work. Dutch not only has longer military experience, but more advanced skill, since he's trained in tactics not around during Rambo's time. Saying Dutch isn't trained in the things Rambo is simply because he didn't display during the brief 2 hours we saw him is utterly ridiculous. That's like saying Dutch is incapable of driving a station wagon just because we never saw his driver's silence.

I may have forgotten, but where in Predator do they talk about Dutch's career?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I never said he could or couldn't.. WHAT I AM SAYING is it was never shown that he couldn't. Period. What I'm also claiming is.. Dutch isn't a carpenter and thus probably wouldn't be trained in flying a chopper or tank... Dutch is a highly trained Special Operations member. He was a veteran of Nam and clear presented as one of the best of the best of the special forces. He was the commander of his unit which again implies being badass as one of the best of the best. Thus it's far more likely dutch has received training ni flying a chopper than a bus driver would. So me not wanting to exclude the possibility that he very well could be trained in such things is far more sound than some joe schmoe. In either case, my only piont is and has been... Dutch not being shown doing something doesn't mean he can't nor does it mean Rambo is better trained like suggested.

Well, that's fine, but I don't see how Dutch MAYBE having the same training proves he's better than Rambo. All this comes down to is feats and Dutch doesn't have any h2h ones.

You made the claim that Rambo has had more training.. your justification for said stance was because Rambo was shown driving tanks and helicopters and dutch wasn't. That DOESN'T support YOUR claim.. What is so hard to understand about this?

They're all trained in H2H combat. Odd to assume Rambo was but Dutch wasn't? And how do you know the helicopter/tank driving was learned through his Green Beret training? How do you know a friend or fellow soldier didn't teach him?

Originally posted by Psychotron
I may have forgotten, but where in Predator do they talk about Dutch's career?

It was stated in the novelization, which is official canon. Imp already stated EU can be used. Are you going to claim he was in the military for less time than Rambo? I'd like proof of that from the film please, by your same standards.

xQyS_YSWyQs

And what in that musical montage indicates that Rambo learned helicopter flying from the Green Berets rather than a fellow soldier in the field? And more importantly, how the phuck does that prove Dutch didn't learn H2H in the Green Berets? Is H2H also a skill they don't teach regular Green Berets?

Originally posted by Lestov16
And what in that musical montage indicates that Rambo learned helicopter flying from the Green Berets rather than a fellow soldier in the field?

So if not the military, where are you claiming Rambo learned to fly?

and further how does Ramo flying a chopper mean that dutch can't?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and further how does Ramo flying a chopper mean that dutch can't?

If you want to claim that Dutch can fly one, post a clip of him doing so.

Originally posted by Lestov16
It was stated in the novelization, which is official canon. Imp already stated EU can be used. Are you going to claim he was in the military for less time than Rambo? I'd like proof of that from the film please, by your same standards.

Relax. I didn't say Dutch wasn't a Green Barret, I just didn't remember. Anyway, this really isn't about who can fly choppers or not. It's about a fist fight, and since Dutch doesn't have any h2h feats we can't honestly judge his abilities, and say he can beat Rambo.

You can't say that for certain. You act like because he has no H2H feats, he is incapable of H2H, even though he was a certifiable Green Beret, which means he definitely received H2H training. Looking at the facts (same Green Beret H2H training, longer military service, stronger, more durable) Dutch would be the conclusive victor. It's ridiculous to say he loses solely because he didn't find the circumstance to fight somebody onscreen for the brief 2 hours the audience sees him.

Saying Dutch loses purely because we didn't see him fight is like saying Tyler Durden could beat Hoot from Black Hawk Down, AK from Tears of the Sun, or Willard from Apocalypse Now in H2H purely because they never fought onscreen. It's a nonsense argument.

And again, how does Rambo beat Dutch when hits from the Predator couldn't keep Dutch (who was also hit with a plasma cannon which blew off another man's arm) down? And LOL if you say Rambo is better skilled in H2H than the Predator.

Originally posted by Lestov16
You can't say that for certain. You act like because he has no H2H feats, he is incapable of H2H, even though he was a certifiable Green Beret, which means he definitely received H2H training. Looking at the facts (same Green Beret H2H training, longer military service, stronger, more durable) Dutch would be the conclusive victor. It's ridiculous to say he loses solely because he didn't find the circumstance to fight somebody onscreen for the brief 2 hours the audience sees him.

Saying Dutch loses purely because we didn't see him fight is like saying Tyler Durden could beat Hoot from Black Hawk Down, AK from Tears of the Sun, or Willard from Apocalypse Now in H2H purely because they never fought onscreen. It's a nonsense argument.

And again, how does Rambo beat Dutch when hits from the Predator couldn't keep Dutch (who was also hit with a plasma cannon which blew off another man's arm) down? And LOL if you say Rambo is better skilled in H2H than the Predator.

Dutch was wrecked by the Predator, it was toying with him. I don't know why you're bringing that up. Harrigan did better than him.

Has it ever occurred to you that not all soldiers are expert h2h fighters? Maybe Dutch was a great tactician and shooter, but a mediocre fighter? Like that Navy SEAL who tried his luck in MMA and did pretty poorly. Until he has some h2h feats we can't assume he'd beat Rambo.

Just because you received h2h training doesn't mean you excel at it. C'mon people, this is common sense. If a thousand soldiers all graduated from the same training camp, you don't expect them to all be exactly as good as each other. Some would be great, some would be better than others, and some would be just good enough to pass.

"Absense of proof is no proof" is a stupid argument. You say someone can do something, then prove it. You say Dutch is a good h2h fighter, then prove it.

Rambo isn't Bruce Lee. You act like he's some H2H god. Rambo isn't a "H2H specialist". Prove he's more skilled in H2H than your basic Green Beret.

And again, how does he put down somebody a superhuman couldn't down?

Originally posted by Lestov16
Rambo isn't Bruce Lee. You act like he's some H2H god. Rambo isn't a "H2H specialist". Prove he's more skilled in H2H than your basic Green Beret.

And again, how does he put down somebody a superhuman couldn't down?

No he isn't, but beating up 3-4 cops ganging up on him is a decent feat as well. Very few people can actually do that. Even trained fighters would have a hard time beating 3 people at the same time.

What do you mean the superhuman couldn't down Dutch? He was beating the crap out of him. It's not like Dutch is going to use some form of log trap on Rambo right?

Predator wants to fight him, when he picked Dutch up with one hand he could of taken the life from him in that very second, then guess what?

Movie would have been over..

Originally posted by Lestov16


Are we talking about the same film? Dutch was getting stomped.

Fat and unfit small town cops.

And Dutch withstood that beating and then outran a nuke. And you say "beating the crap out of him" like Rambo has comparable strength to the Predator. If Dutch could withstand the Predator's blows, what makes you think the far weaker Rambo will effect him?

Originally posted by Psychotron
Are we talking about the same film? Dutch was getting stomped.

Yes we are, Dutch got curb stomped.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Are we talking about the same film? Dutch was getting stomped.

at the misinterpretation. I didn't say he beat the Predator. I said the Predator couldn't put him down, which it couldn't, since he was spry enough to outrun a nuke afterwards. It's about the durability.

Originally posted by Lestov16
I didn't say he beat the Predator. I said the Predator couldn't put him down, which it couldn't, since he was spry enough to outrun a nuke afterwards. It's about the durability.

Originally posted by Lestov16
at the misinterpretation. I didn't say he beat the Predator. I said the Predator couldn't put him down, which it couldn't, since he was spry enough to outrun a nuke afterwards. It's about the durability.

He won because of the prep and traps, not because he was stronger.
Predator could have removed his life any second but they like to fight. Your don't understand the predators culture and way of life.

Originally posted by Lestov16
at the misinterpretation. I didn't say he beat the Predator. I said the Predator couldn't put him down, which it couldn't, since he was spry enough to outrun a nuke afterwards. It's about the durability.

So why didn't he escape from the Predator then? The Predator was going to finish him and Arnold knew it. If he didn't have the log trap it would have been over right there.

Again, at the interpretation. I didn't say Dutch did or could beat the Predator. I said he had the durability to withstand the Predator's beating. What part of this are you guys not comprehending?

Originally posted by Lestov16
Again, at the interpretation. I didn't say Dutch did or could beat the Predator. I said he had the durability to withstand the Predator's beating. What part of this are you guys not comprehending?

Him crawling on the ground to his trap fortress after Predator kicked the shat out of him.

And then he outran a nuke. Again, if the Predator couldn't KO Dutch into unconsciousness, how is the far weaker Rambo supposed to? Durability. Research what this word means.