Lugia vs. Ho-Oh

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Nemesis X
It's the guardian of the seas versus the guardian of the skies. Lugia and Ho-Oh are for some reason, not liking eachother and are in a battle.

Which of these Pokemon would win?

ScreamPaste
Grats on pitting two of the best walls in pokemon against each other. no expression Endless stall war.

MooCowofJustice
Lugia. Water over Fire, and Lugia is much better at taking attacks than Ho-Oh. We haven't even seen much of Ho-Oh.

Don't get me wrong, Ho-Oh is still way cooler.

AsbestosFlaygon
A Lugia already defeated Ho-oh in the manga no expression

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Lugia. Water over Fire, and Lugia is much better at taking attacks than Ho-Oh. We haven't even seen much of Ho-Oh.

Don't get me wrong, Ho-Oh is still way cooler. To be fair, Lugia is technicly psychic/flying.

Nemesis X
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
A Lugia already defeated Ho-oh in the manga no expression

Pics or it didn't happen.

AsbestosFlaygon
Originally posted by Nemesis X
Pics or it didn't happen.
GSC chapter - Volume 14: The Last Battle.

It's somewhere before Red and the gang battle The Mask of Ice.

ares834
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Grats on pitting two of the best walls in pokemon against each other. no expression Endless stall war.
MEh, Ho-Oh does have a pretty good attack stat though.
Still Lugia wins with via spamming Waterfall.

Edit: Asbestos is the manga worth reading?

AsbestosFlaygon
Yes.
Much, much better than watching the anime.

Pokemon and people actually die in the manga, something I've not seen in the anime since the first movie.

BloodRain
Lugia. Aeroblast and Zen headbutt stab and Aqua tail x2

ares834
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Yes.
Much, much better than watching the anime.

Pokemon and people actually die in the manga, something I've not seen in the anime since the first movie.
Know anyplace where I can donwload it.

Heythere,Honey
Lugia learns various water attacks that>Ho-Oh, so Lugia. But then, HG>>>SS.

Sin_Volvagia
Water Attacks, superior defense, Ho-oh has double weakness to rock?

SPITE!

wakkawakkawakka
Does Ho-oh really lose that badly? I mean doesn't Ho-oh have Sacred Fire to counter its attacks or something? Maybe Mewtwo would have been a better opponent...I don't know.

P.S: Do they really have a Pokemon manga with mortal characters?

BloodRain
Sacred Fire isnt going to help too much. Lugia has Aeroblast, psycho boost/zen headbutt and hydro pump/aqua tail. Shouldn't be that hard.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Grats on pitting two of the best walls in pokemon against each other. no expression Endless stall war.
Especially if they go back and forth between Rain Dance and Sunny Day, in which case, the result could go either way.

Originally posted by ares834
MEh, Ho-Oh does have a pretty good attack stat though.
Still Lugia wins with via spamming Waterfall.
Lugia's base special attack = 90
Ho-oh's base special defense = 154

Waterfall alone ain't gonna beat it.

Originally posted by Heythere,Honey
Lugia learns various water attacks that>Ho-Oh, so Lugia.
Good thing Ho-oh's got Roost and Recover then.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Lugia. Aeroblast and Zen headbutt stab and Aqua tail x2
Don't know about Aqua Tail, but Sacred Fire will deal more damage to Lugia than Zen Headbutt and Aeroblast will to Ho-oh (the latter of which isn't even effective against the phoenix type-wise), especially with SF being physical now instead of special, making it stronger.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Water Attacks, superior defense, Ho-oh has double weakness to rock?

SPITE!
Ain't that much spite. The only rock attack Lugia learns anyway is Ancient Power, which is special now instead of physical, giving Ho-oh a considerably better chance to survive it, especially with Calm Mind and such.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Sacred Fire isnt going to help too much.
If the move causes a burn it probably will, which it's got a 50% chance of doing so unlike other fire attacks. Then Ho-oh can proceed to do more damage with Thunder/Thunderbolt, Overheat, or something.

And Lugia's no Deoxys, so Psycho Boost won't KO Ho-oh.



Also, Ho-oh resurrected three dead Pokemon in a burnt tower and in doing so, created Raikou, Entei, and Suicune. Lugia hasn't displayed such mystical powaz. At least not on that level.

BloodRain
Overall damage wise Aqua tail and a Crit Aeroblast > Sacred fire. And as Lugia is mentioned to have control of the weather ie keep rain dance on, hydro pump and aqua tail do more damage. (especially aqua tail now) Lugias speed will allow it to get the first/more hits in and evade.

Yeah Ho-oh has the healing powers but Lugia has the destructive ones. A flutter of his wings can blow apart houses, strong flap can make a 40 day storm.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by BloodRain
Overall damage wise Aqua tail and a Crit Aeroblast > Sacred fire.
Even with a critical hit, Aeroblast still isn't very effective against Ho-oh, and not like Sacred Fire is the only decent move its got against Lugia. Although Lugia has a good chance of winning here, it's not guaranteed either, and can still go either way depending on the circumstances. I've beaten plenty of Lugias with a Ho-oh before.

Originally posted by BloodRain
And as Lugia is mentioned to have control of the weather ie keep rain dance on, hydro pump and aqua tail do more damage. (especially aqua tail now)
Easily countered by Sunny Day.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Lugias speed will allow it to get the first/more hits in and evade.
This is true, although a Ho-oh holding Choice Scarf, Salac Berry, Quick Claw, or some other held item of the sort can fix that problem easily enough.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Yeah Ho-oh has the healing powers but Lugia has the destructive ones. A flutter of his wings can blow apart houses, strong flap can make a 40 day storm.
Ho-oh's powaz go beyond just healing, as he transformed three deceased Pokemon into elemental legendary beasts that race casually across the land. Raikou shoots bolts of lightning from the rain clouds on its back, Entei shoots flames hotter than volcanic magma & can make a volcano erupt on the other side of the world when it roars, and Suicune purifies water & can walk across it, along with having a variety of wind powers; and Ho-oh created all three of them.

Ho-oh's creation of the three beasts > blowing apart houses and causing 40-day storms


Ho-oh also has much greater control of his powers. Lugia isolates itself deep underwater to hibernate because he has such trouble controlling his.

BloodRain
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Even with a critical hit, Aeroblast still isn't very effective against Ho-oh, and not like Sacred Fire is the only decent move its got against Lugia. Although Lugia has a good chance of winning here, it's not guaranteed either, and can still go either way depending on the circumstances. I've beaten plenty of Lugias with a Ho-oh before.
By a quick calc -(atkxmove/def)xstab-weakness/resistance- Sacred fire is 150, Crit Aeroblast is 175, Aqua tail 180
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Easily countered by Sunny Day.

This is true, although a Ho-oh holding Choice Scarf, Salac Berry, Quick Claw, or some other held item of the sort can fix that problem easily enough.
Lugia can control the weather not just cast rain dance/sunny day.
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Ho-oh's powaz go beyond just healing, as he transformed three deceased Pokemon into elemental legendary beasts that race casually across the land. Raikou shoots bolts of lightning from the rain clouds on its back, Entei shoots flames hotter than volcanic magma & can make a volcano erupt on the other side of the world when it roars, and Suicune purifies water & can walk across it, along with having a variety of wind powers; and Ho-oh created all three of them.

Ho-oh's creation of the three beasts > blowing apart houses and causing 40-day storms


Ho-oh also has much greater control of his powers. Lugia isolates itself deep underwater to hibernate because he has such trouble controlling his.

Reincarnate the beasts to stronger forms, and giving life < destruction in a fight.

ares834
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime

Lugia's base special attack = 90
Ho-oh's base special defense = 154

Waterfall alone ain't gonna beat it.

Waterfall is physical and Ho-OH's defense is 90... Ancient Power can also be used.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by BloodRain
Lugia can control the weather not just cast rain dance/sunny day.
Altering the weather is nothing special when plenty of Pokemon such as Groudon, Kyogre, etc. can also do it.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Reincarnate the beasts to stronger forms, and giving life < destruction in a fight.
Because blowing apart houses is something beyond what Ho-oh and the three beasts can do, mirite?

Originally posted by ares834
Waterfall is physical and Ho-OH's defense is 90... Ancient Power can also be used.
Ah, I forgot Waterfall was physical now. Still, nothing an Impish nature Ho-oh or somethin' can't Recover from.

And Ancient Power is no longer physical, it's special. Ho-oh's special defense is 154. AP's base power is only 60.

wakkawakkawakka
Well won't Aeroblast and Hydro Pump still give Ho-oh hell? However I really do think that Sacred fire will still mess up Lugia pretty badly despite its stats.

ares834
Never mind.

BloodRain
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Altering the weather is nothing special when plenty of Pokemon such as Groudon, Kyogre, etc. can also do it.

Because blowing apart houses is something beyond what Ho-oh and the three beasts can do, mirite?

Yeah and Ho-oh isnt one of them. Its Rain dance will stay up

No but a 40 day storm with a single movement is. One flap that makes that destructive force, how is Ho-oh's reincarnation going to help in this match?

MooCowofJustice
Ho-Oh learns Sunny Day.

BloodRain
I know, im saying that those tms < natural strong powers of weather control like Lugia what Groudon have.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by BloodRain
I know, im saying that those tms < natural strong powers of weather control like Lugia what Groudon have. Learns sunny day naturally. no expression

BloodRain
Sunny day is still < weather control.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by BloodRain
Sunny day is still < weather control. Sunny Day is weather control. If you wanna get technical, MewTwo probably has the best feat of weather control in the movies and stuff.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Well won't Aeroblast and Hydro Pump still give Ho-oh hell? However I really do think that Sacred fire will still mess up Lugia pretty badly despite its stats.
And when the opponent Pokemon gets a burn status (which Sacred Fire has a 50% chance of causing), its attacks become not as strong, making it even easier for Ho-oh to survive.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Yeah and Ho-oh isnt one of them.
Yes he is... Like Moo said, Ho-oh learns Sunny Day, and naturally, not just through TMs.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Sunny Day is weather control. If you wanna get technical, MewTwo probably has the best feat of weather control in the movies and stuff.
That he does.

And Lugia's no Kyogre. Its Rain Dance effect will still wear off in battle just like Ho-oh's Sunny Day does.

BloodRain
All im saying is that I don't see a 40 say storm powered Rain dance will be equal to a normal Sunny day. And a Hydro pump can stop any Sacred fire before its near Lugia.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by BloodRain
All im saying is that I don't see a 40 say storm powered Rain dance will be equal to a normal Sunny day.
Scream's point still stands regardless, and there's nothing that says Lugia's 40-day storm can't be cancelled out by another Pokemon's weather control powers.

Originally posted by BloodRain
And a Hydro pump can stop any Sacred fire before its near Lugia.
Hydro Pump's lower accuracy says otherwise, and SF is no ordinary attack. Highly unlikely that a mystical sacred flame which instantly destroyed a tower and created 3 legendary beasts would be stopped by just an ordinary water attack that has no additional properties.

MooCowofJustice
Ho-Oh also always carries Sacred Ash, so he gets a free revival.

BloodRain
By damage Hydro pump would be more then enough to stop it.

Heythere,Honey
Ho-Oh can still win if Sacred Fire burns Lugia.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by BloodRain
By damage Hydro pump would be more then enough to stop it.
Normally, perhaps, but both of Ho-oh's attack stats are way higher than Lugia's.

BloodRain
100 damage 130 atk 1.5 STAB
120 damage 90 spatk x2 for Water>Fire move

The attack will stop Sacred flame and damage it in the precess.

MooCowofJustice
Lugia does not get STAB from Hydro Pump. He's Psychic/Flying I believe.

However, Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire is now a Physical Attack. And I believe his Attack stat is 134.

BloodRain
Top on was Sacred fire, bottom was Hydro pump.

MooCowofJustice
Ho-Oh still comes out on top. Stats have a much greater effect on power than the moves power.

150 power off 130 Attack vs 120 power off 90 special attack. X2 only puts the power at 240.

BloodRain
Sacred fire's damage is 100.
100x130x1.5=19500
120x90x2=21600

MooCowofJustice
STAB adds half the move's power. Type advantages double the moves power. Stats do not get doubled. They are only increased by stat increasing moves.

150 X 130 = 19500

240 X 90 = 21600


Damn it. embarrasment

BloodRain
XD

Now Sacred fires mostly dealt with Lugia shouldn't have too much trouble.

MooCowofJustice
I still disagree! Lugia's movepool is mostly Special based, which Ho-Oh has as his strongest defensive stat. And Lugia's stat is I think 110. A decent advantage.

We should do more fun threads. Like the trios. Beasts vs Birds vs Golems vs Lake Guardians. I'd allow trio masters, but that gives Arceus to the Lake guardians.

BloodRain
Oh yeah? Aqua tail takes down Ho-oh fast~ Stats-wise its the strongest move either can land on each other.

Should make it. But not so much the Lake guardians, they only have one type to the other trios three.

MooCowofJustice
The Lake Guardians also have some of the craziest powers. Azelf erases a beings willpower when harmed. They don't even have the willpower to move after that.

Uxie can erase memories if someone comes into contact with its eyes.

Mesprit is just there.

Their souls can also leave their bodies without dying.

BloodRain
Azelf vs Sephs and his 'will power' lol

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by BloodRain
Azelf vs Sephs and his 'will power' lol

laughing

Sephiroth takes control of the lifestream and wills Azelf out of existence. That's how a Sephiroth fanboy would put it. I always found those will powers really funny.

Nemesis X
Don't be off topic.

BloodRain
Originally posted by Nemesis X
Don't be off topic.

Neva!

Technically its still on the pkmn topic shifty

ScreamPaste
For the record, Azelf rapestomps Sephiroth so hard it's not worth discussing. erm Being of will-power, with his two friends, is on par with Palkia or Dialga.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Ho-Oh also always carries Sacred Ash, so he gets a free revival.
Ah yes. Almost forgot Ho-oh can be reborn from its own ashes, being a phoenix and all. Another good advantage.

Originally posted by BloodRain
100 damage 130 atk 1.5 STAB
120 damage 90 spatk x2 for Water>Fire move

The attack will stop Sacred flame and damage it in the precess.
Based on actual feats, Hydro Pump's got nothing on Sacred Fire.

feats > gameplay mechanics

BloodRain
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Ah yes. Almost forgot Ho-oh can be reborn from its own ashes, being a phoenix and all. Another good advantage.

Based on actual feats, Hydro Pump's got nothing on Sacred Fire.

feats > gameplay mechanics

Reborn = Lost the match.

And what feats does Sacred fire even have that puts it above Hydro pump?

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by BloodRain
Reborn = Lost the match.
Wrong. Ho-oh can legitimately come back to life if he's defeated via Sacred Ash, so the match only continues.

Originally posted by BloodRain
And what feats does Sacred fire even have that puts it above Hydro pump?
Already mentioned 'em earlier in the thread. Sacred Fire instantly destroyed a tower in Ecruteak and was the very force that created Raikou, Entei, and Suicune. Hydro Pump has no feats that put it above that.

edit:
While slightly more powerful than some of the following attacks in the metagame, Hydro Pump has nothing that actually puts it above Doom Desire, Shadow Force, Special Rend, Roar of Time, or Judgement either.

Heythere,Honey
IMO stats are gameplay mechanic. no expression

And leave pewr Sephy alone. >_<

ScreamPaste
lolsephsmall <.<

Heythere,Honey
That vid made me lol when I first saw it.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by Heythere,Honey
IMO stats are gameplay mechanic. no expression
That's a fact actually, not an opinion, and like I said

feats > gameplay mechanics


How is Hydro Pump, a random blast of water, more powerful than (or on par with) something that can create 3 legendary beasts, or attacks that control space, time, etc.?

Demonic Phoenix
Durr, it's performed by the overrated flying-whale.
They believe that a Lugia Water spray > Space/Time Distortion.

Ridley_Prime
Oh right. Sacred Fire is no ordinary fire though obviously. I'll believe Hydro Pump can stop it the day I see it out-perform SF in creating 3 legendary beasts (one of which can use Hydro Pump itself). xD

BloodRain
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Wrong. Ho-oh can legitimately come back to life if he's defeated via Sacred Ash, so the match only continues.

Already mentioned 'em earlier in the thread. Sacred Fire instantly destroyed a tower in Ecruteak and was the very force that created Raikou, Entei, and Suicune. Hydro Pump has no feats that put it above that.

edit:
While slightly more powerful than some of the following attacks in the metagame, Hydro Pump has nothing that actually puts it above Doom Desire, Shadow Force, Special Rend, Roar of Time, or Judgement either.

In this Vs world one loss, even if they could come back still means they lost the match, its what everyone has agreed on somewhere. Besides, Sacred Ash is a Recovery item not a held item. Ho-oh cant use it on itself (same as Lugia using potions) nor could it as it would need to faint then have someone use it.

Ho-oh didnt destroy the now Burned Tower, a lightning strike did. And the fire from the lightning killed them in which Ho-oh 'then' revived them when it fled. The only feat shown was in an anime flashback where the flames ashes gave life to the land, attack wise it has no feats... Even if we ignore damage power its still got the x2 type advantage.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by BloodRain
In this Vs world one loss, even if they could come back still means they lost the match, its what everyone has agreed on somewhere. Besides, Sacred Ash is a Recovery item not a held item. Ho-oh cant use it on itself (same as Lugia using potions) nor could it as it would need to faint then have someone use it.
A wild Ho-oh is always holding the Sacred Ash though, so presumably, it would activate when it faints. This is evident by the fact Ho-oh comes back to the Tin Tower in Heart Gold if you make it faint after beating the Elite 4.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Ho-oh didnt destroy the now Burned Tower, a lightning strike did. And the fire from the lightning killed them in which Ho-oh 'then' revived them when it fled. The only feat shown was in an anime flashback where the flames ashes gave life to the land, attack wise it has no feats... Even if we ignore damage power its still got the x2 type advantage.
I'm pretty sure Ho-oh destroyed the tower with Sacred Fire when people who were once loyal to it tried capturing it to use its power for themselves, which then he struck back and fled. And feeling guilty for the death of three Pokemon that perished in the fire, he revived them with the mystical powers of his signature move and made them into the three legendary beasts they are now.

At least that's how I remember it. The games and the anime usually contradict each other on things like how the tower was originally destroyed, or how Mewtwo was created/born, etc.

BloodRain
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
A wild Ho-oh is always holding the Sacred Ash though, so presumably, it would activate when it faints. This is evident by the fact Ho-oh comes back to the Tin Tower in Heart Gold if you make it faint after beating the Elite 4.
Could flip into this can it use it or not thing, but its easier to go by one faint is a loss.
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
I'm pretty sure Ho-oh destroyed the tower with Sacred Fire when people who were once loyal to it tried capturing it to use its power for themselves, which then he struck back and fled. And feeling guilty for the death of three Pokemon that perished in the fire, he revived them with the mystical powers of his signature move and made them into the three legendary beasts they are now.

That's just how I remember it though. The games and the anime usually contradict each other on things like how the tower was originally destroyed, how Mewtwo was created/born, etc.

Ive seen several things saying lightning, havnt seen that one. Blah, setting fire to an old building, a normal Flamethrower could do that. Only difference is its ashes can bring life.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.