Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

protege has prep.

And according to the whether forecast, a shitstorm is about to descend.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
protege has prep.
You can't really prep against a Supreme Being.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
protege has prep. What a funny stip.

protege can copy his powers just like he copied the tribunal

PM stomps.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
protege can copy his powers just like he copied the tribunal There's no proof he can copy a true Supreme Being.

No proof he could even surpass the living tribunal....

Originally posted by rotiart
No proof he could even surpass the living tribunal....
Energy Muzzle ftw.

Originally posted by rotiart

No proof he could even surpass the living tribunal....
Except that he did, (powerwise) with unquestionable proof, on panel and confirmed in the handbooks.

Btw. How you doin good friend?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Except that he did, (powerwise) with unquestionable proof, on panel and confirmed in the handbooks.

Btw. How you doin good friend?
And yet was defeated by a Celestial.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
And yet was defeated by a Celestial.

Uh oh. Now you have 'earned' the wrath of Mr Master!

Edit: aw damn, he logged of.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
And yet was defeated by a Celestial.

He "was" defeated in a pretty lame fashion, as I recall..

For all the hype, the actual match was kind of disappointing.

Originally posted by cdtm
He "was" defeated in a pretty lame fashion, as I recall..

For all the hype, the actual match was kind of disappointing.
Yep. Energy muzzle to the face, an attack that really had no clear effect that might have defeated a being that was supposedly above the LT.

^^ facepalm

Originally posted by Omega Vision

And yet was defeated by a Celestial.
...

I see you're under the impression Scathan is/was just another Celestial.

Protege copied the powers of
the LT/Eternity/Hawkgod/Beyonder/Mephisto/Malevolence and GOTG,
this made Protege more powerful than all of them combined,
then Scathan came by and stomped all that power with a gesture.

Anyone who believes Scathan is/was just a Celestial is posting with ignorant innocence.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yep. Energy muzzle to the face, an attack that really had no clear effect that might have defeated a being that was supposedly above the LT.

Anyways, it looked like Quasar 38 retconned it the moment a Watcher appeared on the scene and declared all of the abstracts "manifestations" or M-bodies, and "homogeneous in scale" looking ones at that.

M-body pretty much = the Thanos Clone excuse for lower end abstract showings.

Sometimes, I hate when they pull that though.. The epic Spectre/Great Evil Beast showdown was treated much the same way, when in the Last Days of the JSA story Spectre revealed he only sent a minor portion of his power to confront it, and that it's threat wasn't nearly as bad as the Ragnarok the JSA was facing..

Yeah, that wasn't really necessary, basically pumping up one story at the expense of Alan Moore's story.. Luckily, no one really seems to know or care about the retcon...

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ facepalm


...

I see you're under the impression Scathan is/was just another Celestial.

Protege copied the powers of
the LT/Eternity/Hawkgod/Beyonder/Mephisto/Malevolence and GOTG,
this made Protege more powerful than all of them combined,
then Scathan came by and stomped all that power with a gesture.

Anyone who believes Scathan is/was just a Celestial is posting with ignorant innocence.
I see you're under the impression that PIS isn't PIS just because its canon.

PIS is when a character performs a feat, or can not perform a feat
that's outside and/or beyond/or below the inherent characters power-set.
This is done to either defeat one that can not be defeated (at-least withIn whatever story)
or to bring a story to an end.

So, while I felt at first that it was PIS, I later realized it was not.

This was Protege's and Scathan's only appearances, so this was their character set powers,
therefore no PIS was involved.

Originally posted by cdtm

Anyways, it looked like Quasar 38 retconned it the moment a Watcher appeared on the scene and declared all of the abstracts "manifestations" or M-bodies, and "homogeneous in scale" looking ones at that.

M-body pretty much = the Thanos Clone excuse for lower end abstract showings.

False.

In Marvel comics, the M-bodies (fractal in-casings)
house the full power of the sentient abstract conceptual entity it gives form to.

M-bodies NEVER come in fractioned portions of power,
and Quasar 38 or any other issue has never made any statement or allusion to the contrary.

In fact, an Abstract can't make/have a showing without an M-body,
so this unsupported theory ('excuse for lower end showings') is not even possible.

Simple ... Protege copied the full power of the LT and company I mentioned,
then he got stomped by Scathan with a gesture.

This is the on panel fact, this is the fact that's corroborated in the LT's official handbook bio.

Originally posted by Mr Master
False.

In Marvel comics, the M-bodies (fractal in-casings)
house the full power of the sentient abstract conceptual entity it gives form to.

M-bodies NEVER come in fractioned portions of power,
and Quasar 38 or any other issue has never made any statement of allusion to the contrary.

In fact, an Abstract can't make/have a showing without an M-body,
so this unsupported theory ('excuse for lower end showings) is not even possible.
What's the name of the entity that manufactures the M-Bodies?

Originally posted by Omega Vision

What's the name of the entity that manufactures the M-Bodies?
It's an entire infinite dimension of entities/type of sentient lifeforms that create M-bodies
they're called "Fractals" and their prime manifester is called Anthropomorpho.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's an entire infinite dimension of entities/type of sentient lifeforms that create M-bodies
they're called "Fractals" and their prime manifestor is called Anthropomorpho.
Thanks, I've been wondering that for a while. It seems odd someone as powerful as the LT would have to rely on outside help though for manifestation.

arent they the embodiment of physical matter? or something like that

Originally posted by Mr Master
PIS is when a character performs a feat, or can not perform a feat
that's outside and/or beyond/or below the inherent characters power-set.
This is done to either defeat one that can not be defeated (at-least withIn whatever story)
or to bring a story to an end.

So, while I felt at first that it was PIS, I later realized it was not.

This was Protege's and Scathan's only appearances, so this was their character set powers,
therefore no PIS was involved.


False.

In Marvel comics, the M-bodies (fractal in-casings)
house the full power of the sentient abstract conceptual entity it gives form to.

M-bodies NEVER come in fractioned portions of power,
and Quasar 38 or any other issue has never made any statement or allusion to the contrary.

In fact, an Abstract can't make/have a showing without an M-body,
so this unsupported theory ('excuse for lower end showings') is not even possible.

Simple ... Protege copied the full power of the LT and company I mentioned,
then he got stomped by Scathan with a gesture.

This is the on panel fact, this is the fact that's corroborated in the LT's official handbook bio.

It's never explicitly stated, you're right. I'm basing this off of showings like Oblivion being choked to death, or Death being captured by the Elders..

But what we're really talking about is a service for abstracts? Well, it's more efficiant than what The Endless apparently has to do to manifest, like the coming of Daniel Dream..

Didn't Galactus use an M-body though? And Magus commented on using them in the same Quasar issue, 38. They're physical beings, why would they need them?

Originally posted by cdtm
It's never explicitly stated, you're right. I'm basing this off of showings like Oblivion being choked to death, or Death being captured by the Elders..

But what we're really talking about is a service for abstracts? Well, it's more efficiant than what The Endless apparently has to do to manifest, like the coming of Daniel Dream..

Didn't Galactus use an M-body though? And Magus commented on using them in the same Quasar issue, 38. They're physical beings, why would they need them?

Anyways, I wouldn't consider it PIS copying LT's full power set any more than Black Alice taking on The Spectres powers..

But Protege still went down pretty easy, for someone who claimed he was basically the One Above All at that point (Basically, not just LT powerful but stronger than LT powerful.)

Originally posted by cdtm

It's never explicitly stated, you're right. I'm basing this off of showings like Oblivion being choked to death, or Death being captured by the Elders..
Actually it was the Anamoly that was choked by Maelstrom, and that was PIS imo.
Death allowed the Elders their moment, to manipulate other events.
Originally posted by cdtm

But what we're really talking about is a service for abstracts?
Correct. That's the Fractals' only purpose,
but they can make M-bodys for physical beings as well,
this happens when a physical being wants to make an appearance somewhere
without actually (physically) having to be there.
Originally posted by cdtm

Didn't Galactus use an M-body though?
And Magus commented on using them in the same Quasar issue, 38. They're physical beings, why would they need them?
Addressed right above.

PM wins.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually it was the Anamoly that was choked by Maelstrom, and that was PIS imo.
That was such a strange showing. It seems like every writer has a different idea of what happens when you kill an abstract. Some have it doing nothing at all, and the abstract just reconstituting (1st Eternity/Dormammu), some have the concept they represent disappearing altogether (Death/Beyonder), and some have it being whoever kills it takes over it's role (Maelstrom/Anomaly).

It's all messed up.

Protege is one of the most powerful beings ever in comic history. He would stomp LT and others (he was already on a good way to stomp them), if not for Scathan. Actually, Primal Monitor (The Presence) is probably the only one from DC who would defeat Protege. From such being as Mxy, Spectre, Aniti-Monitor, Mandrakk, he would make a joke out of them.

The guy from Checkmate could probably beat him as well. He did adapt to take down Michael.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
The guy from Checkmate could probably beat him as well. He did adapt to take down Michael.

Who now?

Not the Archangel Michael? He died in Lucifer's story, unless this happened in Lucifer.. But I've read it, and don't recall a human taking him down.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Protege is one of the most powerful beings ever in comic history. He would stomp LT and others (he was already on a good way to stomp them), if not for Scathan. Actually, Primal Monitor (The Presence) is probably the only one from DC who would defeat Protege. From such being as Mxy, Spectre, Aniti-Monitor, Mandrakk, he would make a joke out of them.

But.. he DIDN'T stomp them!

If he had the power, maybe he didn't have the skill to use it? Either way, they took him down.

^ If only the fool had thought to copy the powers of Scathan.

Originally posted by cdtm
But.. he DIDN'T stomp them!

I said would stomp them. He couldn't stomp them because of Scathan.

Originally posted by cdtm
If he had the power, maybe he didn't have the skill to use it? Either way, they took him down.

He would put them down. It's just that Scathan was there.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
^ If only the fool had thought to copy the powers of Scathan.

Yeah, I know.

You'd think Scathan would be far enough blow LT where it shouldn't matter if Protege copied his powers or not.

That's why I'm saying either Protege just didn't know what he was doing, and "could" have weathered that attack if he had a little time with his new powers (And this is kind of supported by Beyonder training the kid, meaning just because he copies cosmic powers doesn't mean he has the knowledge to use it), or he didn't really have as much power as he thought he did (E.g, he copied something off of LT, but it wasn't his full power set. Maybe it's impossible to copy LT's full powers...)

There aren't too many other ways of looking at it. \

@mr master
I'm good friend but you know how I feel about thy storyline... The same way I feel about thanos calling himself god or anyone calling a character omnipotent.

The fact that he could be defeated at all by anyone other than himself does not make him toaa.

Although I guess you can be above living tribunal and below toaa now that I think about living tribunals dealings with pre retcon brothers/ beyonder/ protege... Etc

Originally posted by rotiart
@mr master
I'm good friend but you know how I feel about thy storyline... The same way I feel about thanos calling himself god or anyone calling a character omnipotent.

The fact that he could be defeated at all by anyone other than himself does not make him toaa.

Although I guess you can be above living tribunal and below toaa now that I think about living tribunals dealings with pre retcon brothers/ beyonder/ protege... Etc
How do you feel about Scathan though? Do you also put him above LT like Master or do you think it was just PIS and shit writing that should be ignored?

Originally posted by cdtm
Who now?

Not the Archangel Michael? He died in Lucifer's story, unless this happened in Lucifer.. But I've read it, and don't recall a human taking him down.

Chimera. I believe he turned INTO Michael. Sorry, I haven't read it in a long time.

Originally posted by cdtm

That's why I'm saying either Protege just didn't know what he was doing, and "could" have weathered that attack if he had a little time with his new powers (And this is kind of supported by Beyonder training the kid, meaning just because he copies cosmic powers doesn't mean he has the knowledge to use it), or he didn't really have as much power as he thought he did (E.g, he copied something off of LT, but it wasn't his full power set. Maybe it's impossible to copy LT's full powers...)

There aren't too many other ways of looking at it.
There is one more way to look at it, the way it was portrayed on panel,
and the way the official Marvel handbook supports what was portrayed on panel.

Protege copied the full power
of the LT/Eternity/Hawkgod/Beyonder/Mephisto/Malevolence & GOTG.

Beyonder stated: "any and all Realities rests on the boys shoulders" ... (the Omniverse)

The Writer himself then tells us how the LT/Eternity & Hawkgod feel about what Beyonder said:

For the LT its: "logical confirmation"

That aside,
the LT had to draw on external power that was not his own to supplement his own
in order to judge Protege.

That aside, the LT's own official handbook bio tells us that Protege copied the LT's power
and nearly usurped his position, (Protege was about to erase the LT and company)
right before Scathan came through with majesty and stomped Protege with a gesture
thus saving the Omniverse.

(just like it happened on panel)

That aslo aside,
Beyonder telling Protege about the cosmics (he wasn't training Protege)
has nothing to do with Protege being limited in his effectiveness with these powers he absorbed.

Originally posted by rotiart

The fact that he could be defeated at all by anyone other than himself does not make him toaa.
I never said he was anything close to TOAA, that was Protege fantasizing.
Originally posted by rotiart

Although I guess you can be above living tribunal and below toaa now that I think about living tribunals dealings with pre retcon brothers/ beyonder/ protege... Etc
Yea good friend, Protege definitely became more powerful than the LT.

And therefore this makes Scathan a beast.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I never said he was anything close to TOAA, that was Protege fantasizing.

Yea good friend, Protege definitely became more powerful than the LT.

And therefore this makes Scathan a beast.
I heard a theory on another site that Scathan was merely temporarily boosted by TOAA to be strong enough to defeat Protege. It has no real backing in the comic but it makes more sense than "Scathan is just a Celestial who somehow is > LT."

Because if that were the case and Scathan > LT then wouldn't that make him in effect more powerful than all his fellow Celestials combined? That sounds fishy.

Originally posted by Omega Vision

I heard a theory on another site that Scathan was merely temporarily boosted by TOAA to be strong enough to defeat Protege. It has no real backing in the comic but it makes more sense than "Scathan is just a Celestial who somehow is > LT."
I'm the one that actually came to that conclusion,
and I proved it here with persuasive indirect yet related proof.
That other site just regurgitated my work.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=492799&pagenumber=1

Page 5-6 seals the deal.

Actually I don't put scathan above lt...
He used a "celestial muzzle" which could be the equivalent of a un/ig or other cosmic artifact

Originally posted by rotiart
Actually I don't put scathan above lt...
He used a "celestial muzzle" which could be the equivalent of a un/ig or other cosmic artifact

The problem with that, is The Celestials having always had artifacts that could defeat the Living Tribunal is a less palatable explanation than Scathan getting a one time power up.

But even the "TOAA empowers Scathan" argument requires a leap of faith, since it's not directly supported by on panel evidence.. (And why empower Scathan, instead of your personal cosmic judge?)

I'm thinking it's just a case of old fashioned PIS. The writer didn't think this through, and ended it poorly.

Originally posted by cdtm
The problem with that, is The Celestials having always had artifacts that could defeat the Living Tribunal is a less palatable explanation than Scathan getting a one time power up.

But even the "TOAA empowers Scathan" argument requires a leap of faith, since it's not directly supported by on panel evidence.. (And why empower Scathan, instead of your personal cosmic judge?)

I'm thinking it's just a case of old fashioned PIS. The writer didn't think this through, and ended it poorly.
Agreed. Its best to just ignore this crappy story and the headaches trying to make sense of it induces.

Originally posted by cdtm
I'm thinking it's just a case of old fashioned PIS. The writer didn't think this through, and ended it poorly. This is the most plausible (and logical) explanation. All of the other opinions being thrown out in this thread are just that: opinions. ie. the opposite of a fact.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I heard a theory on another site that Scathan was merely temporarily boosted by TOAA to be strong enough to defeat Protege. It has no real backing in the comic but it makes more sense than "Scathan is just a Celestial who somehow is > LT."

Because if that were the case and Scathan > LT then wouldn't that make him in effect more powerful than all his fellow Celestials combined? That sounds fishy.
Scathan exists in the future, not the present. For all we know he could have been some kind of "super celestial" that developed.

PM FTW..even if Protege have the power of the entire Marvel multiverse..it's still nothing compare to PM..

Originally posted by Slaanesh
PM FTW..even if Protege have the power of the entire Marvel multiverse..it's still nothing compare to PM.. there are things beyond the marvel multiverse.
the marvel multiverse is nothing but a drop of water to a vast ocean to the beyond realm.
and thats were beyonder came from.
beyonder noticed a tiny multiverse in the beyond realm and went in to see it

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
there are things beyond the marvel multiverse.
the marvel multiverse is nothing but a drop of water to a vast ocean to the beyond realm.
and thats were beyonder came from.
beyonder noticed a tiny multiverse in the beyond realm and went in to see it

Protege was far more than Marvel Multiverse.
PreBeyonder was retconned. This is not about PreB but Protege Vs. PM.
PM wins.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
there are things beyond the marvel multiverse.
the marvel multiverse is nothing but a drop of water to a vast ocean to the beyond realm.
and thats were beyonder came from.
beyonder noticed a tiny multiverse in the beyond realm and went in to see it

that's why i think Beyonder = PM..but we're talking about Protege here..not Beyonder..

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Agreed. Its best to just ignore this crappy story and the headaches trying to make sense of it induces. If you ignore the story then you shouldn't debate about characters that were in this story such as the Protege.Originally posted by King Kandy
Scathan exists in the future, not the present. For all we know he could have been some kind of "super celestial" that developed. Exactly. Comparing him to the average celestial when we saw so little of him and we saw him outperform any Celestial prior to or since this is fault logic. Scathan is by far the greatest celestial we have ever seen on panel and fromt he future and any comparisons to 616 or other Celestials aren't fair by any stretch of the imagination.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
there are things beyond the marvel multiverse.
the marvel multiverse is nothing but a drop of water to a vast ocean to the beyond realm.
and thats were beyonder came from.
beyonder noticed a tiny multiverse in the beyond realm and went in to see it

Do you think Protege = Beyonder?