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Who wins?
Also can someone post some scans of the primal monitor?

PM = TOAA >> THOTI = Beyonder

Originally posted by galactusischere
PM = TOAA >> THOTI = Beyonder Can someone post scans of PM?What are his feats and what make him so strong?

Donnie Osmond.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Can someone post scans of PM?What are his feats and what make him so strong?

Check your private messages.

Originally posted by galactusischere

PM = TOAA >> THOTI = Beyonder
The PM is basically a rip off of what classic Beyonder was.

So in actuality: Beyonder = PM ... if anything.

TOAA > PM

Grant Morrison avatar from Animal Man #26 = TOAA

PM wasnt a rip off. He didn't even appear.

Based on feats, statements and everything else you could base your argument on. Capital B.

PM had feats?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
PM had feats?
That's the point.

Either way, the DC fanboys seem to wank the Primal Monitor out of proportion. All that was established in Superman Beyond was that universes existed within the original Monitor, the Primal Monitor, the Primal Monitor saw the DC universe as a germ and flaw so he sent a probe (Mandrakk) to destroy it.

Now if the Beyonder wanted a universe to be destroyed he'd will it and that would be it.

Beyonder had feats, though. I don't see the similarities.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The PM is basically a rip off of what classic Beyonder was.

So in actuality: Beyonder = PM ... if anything.

TOAA > PM

Grant Morrison avatar from Animal Man #26 = TOAA
Its not a rip-off if the later one is better written.

I'm not sure how you can put Grant Morrison's "The Writer" character above PM though. In all likelihood they're the same character with a different name and face.

Originally posted by galactusischere
PM = TOAA >> THOTI = Beyonder

Again, what happened to the presence?!

Originally posted by Omega Vision

Its not a rip-off if the later one is better written.
It's a rip off cause its nearly exactly what Beyonder did.
The Marvelverse was a drop of water next to his ocean,
he then discovered the droplet, he then entered the droplet to study it.

As for the "better written story" ... that's you personal opinion.
Originally posted by Omega Vision

I'm not sure how you can put Grant Morrison's "The Writer" character above PM though. In all likelihood they're the same character with a different name and face.
There is no doubt that the PM and the Morrison avatar have absolutely nothing common.
Because the PM was written to believe itself as some grand entity
where it needed to send an explorer to a supposed Multiverse and blah, blah, blah.

The Grant Morrison avatar knew it was nothing more
than a representation of a real world writer in a comic book
in full control of the drawings on the page it appeared on.
('I think for you, I tell you what to say ... you act because of me')

This is just like the TOAA knew it wasn't omniscient and all that fictionalized exaggeration
since again, it understood it was a representation of a finite human mind.

The dialogue was different ofcourse considering it was separate companies/writers
but they were trying to convey the same basic message in the end.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's a rip off cause its nearly exactly what Beyonder did.
The Marvelverse was a drop of water next to his ocean,
he then discovered the droplet, he then entered the droplet to study it.

As for the "better written story" ... that's you personal opinion.

There is no doubt that the PM and the Morrison avatar have absolutely nothing common.
Because the PM was written to believe itself as some grand entity
where it needed to send an explorer to a supposed Multiverse and blah, blah, blah.

The Grant Morrison avatar knew it was nothing more
than a representation of a real world writer in a comic book
in full control of the drawings on the page it appeared on.
('I think for you, I tell you what to say ... you act because of me')

This is just like the TOAA knew it wasn't omniscient and all that fictionalized exaggeration
since again, it understood it was a representation of a finite human mind.

The dialogue was different ofcourse considering it was separate companies/writers
but they were trying to convey the same basic message in the end.
Primal Monitor was a representation of infinite story, not a finite human mind. I have no idea where you got that from.

they are basically the same..probably a stalemate..

I don't believe the Beyonder hype Monitor ftw

From what I've heard the only difference is that beyonder doesn't have an avatar.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
From what I've heard the only difference is that beyonder doesn't have an avatar. The Beyonder was essentially Jim Shooter.

Originally posted by Nihilist
The Beyonder was essentially Jim Shooter.
Morrison>Shooter.

Originally posted by Nihilist
The Beyonder was essentially Jim Shooter. The writer?No.Beyonder=HOTU and thanos wasn't in control.Jim would decide what would happen on panel everytime.

Originally posted by Omega Vision

Primal Monitor was a representation of infinite story, not a finite human mind.
I have no idea where you got that from.
Well I got it from Marvel comics, because that's what I was referring to.

That aside, my point exactly.

The PM is written in fantastical imagination ("infinite story" yip yap,
while the Morrison avatar like TOAA knew they weren't "infinite" " or "omnipotent"
or any other ridiculous imagined notion of infinity.
Instead just simple human beings taking the form of illustrations within the comics they create
in order to to share the same canvas with their artwork.

TOAA even said, he didn't know what was next until it was thought up by the writer,
and Morrison in his conversation with a drawing said something akin to: I'm talking to myself.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well I got it from Marvel comics, because that's what I was referring to.

That aside, my point exactly.

The PM is written in fantastical imagination ("infinite story" yip yap,
while the Morrison avatar like TOAA knew they weren't "infinite" " or "omnipotent"
or any other ridiculous imagined notion of infinity.
Instead just simple human beings taking the form of illustrations within the comics they create
in order to to share the same canvas with their artwork.

TOAA even said, he didn't know what was next until it was thought up by the writer,
and Morrison in his conversation with a drawing said something akin to: I'm talking to myself.
I think the point of the PM was that he was bigger than any writer or reader could ever be. The Presence himself admitted that outside forces (in this case Neil Gaiman's pen) shaped him and Morrison's author avatar as you said was aware of his finite nature. Morrison intended the PM to represent more than that, it represents ALL possible stories by all possible writers. Unlike the Presence who was shaped by external forces the Primal Monitor was a "self-assembling hyper-story".

Originally posted by Astner
Either way, the DC fanboys seem to wank the Primal Monitor out of proportion. All that was established in Superman Beyond was that universes existed within the original Monitor, the Primal Monitor, the Primal Monitor saw the DC universe as a germ and flaw so he sent a probe (Mandrakk) to destroy it. Replace every use of the word "universe", with "multiverse" and it'd be more correct. You might also want to note that the original Monitor created by the PM (Rox Ogama), was split up upon entering the fictional story-world of DC. The 'persona' that separated from the original probe became the 'good' Monitor we saw during COIE -- then, out of necessity, Anti-Monitor was born to balance things out. After this 'defusion', what was left of Rox Ogama (the original Monitor) returned to the void and began feeding off the Bleed, and eventually became the story-eating Mandrakk that surfaced during Final Crisis.

In summary: a simple probe spat out by the PM, essentially became 3 different multiversal powers (the 'good' Monitor from COIE, Anti-Monitor, and Mandrakk.) Quite something.

Originally posted by Omega Vision

I think the point of the PM was that he was bigger than any writer or reader could ever be.
I'm liking you OV, but don't ever repeat this in a serious discussion again.

Because it implies that you're either joking or losing your mind.
Originally posted by Omega Vision

The Presence himself admitted that outside forces (in this case Neil Gaiman's pen) shaped him and Morrison's author avatar as you said was aware of his finite nature. Morrison intended the PM to represent more than that, it represents ALL possible stories by all possible writers. Unlike the Presence who was shaped by external forces the Primal Monitor was a "self-assembling hyper-story".
Cool, and that may be, but in actuality the PM was/is and will always be
nothing more than ink on paper who thinks/acts and is, because of a writer,
a writer who will continue to write so long as readers buy his shit

To suggest that a freakin drawing in a comic is somehow (in any fashion whatsoever)
dominant over the writer who creates him and the artist that brings him to life on paper,
is in all seriousness without disrespect, utter nonsense that borders on insanity.

btw. Shooter also placed Beyonder above himself,
so this ridiculous attempt by writers making the drawing more than it could ever be
is nothing new.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm liking you OV, but don't ever repeat this in a serious discussion again.

Because it implies that you're either joking or losing your mind.

Cool, and that may be, but in actuality the PM was/is and will always be
nothing more than ink on paper who thinks/acts and is, because of a writer,
who will continue to write so long as readers buy his shit

To suggest that a freakin drawing in a comic is somehow (in any fashion whatsoever)
dominant over the writer who creates him and the artist that brings him to life on paper,
is in all seriousness without disrespect, utter nonsense that borders on insanity.

btw. Shooter also placed Beyonder above himself,
so this ridiculous attempt by writers making the drawing more than it could ever be
is nothing new.
I think we have very different approaches to what fiction is. I don't think I'll be able to sway you and I know you'll never sway me so I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Galan007
Replace every use of the word "universe", with "multiverse" and it'd be more correct. You might also want to note that the original Monitor created by the PM (Rox Ogama), was split up upon entering the fictional story-world of DC. The 'persona' that separated from the original probe became the 'good' Monitor we saw during COIE -- then, out of necessity, Anti-Monitor was born to balance things out. After this 'defusion', what was left of Rox Ogama (the original Monitor) returned to the void and began feeding off the Bleed, and eventually became the story-eating Mandrakk that surfaced during Final Crisis.

In summary: a simple probe spat out by the PM, essentially became 3 different multiversal powers (the 'good' Monitor from COIE, Anti-Monitor, and Mandrakk.) Quite something. My bad. Dax Novu was the original Monitor/probe (who later became Mandrakk.) Rox Ogama was of the current race of Monitors, and ultimately transformed into the second incarnation of Mandrakk.

So replace Rox, with Dax.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I think the point of the PM was that he was bigger than any writer or reader could ever be. The Presence himself admitted that outside forces (in this case Neil Gaiman's pen) shaped him and Morrison's author avatar as you said was aware of his finite nature. Morrison intended the PM to represent more than that, it represents ALL possible stories by all possible writers. Unlike the Presence who was shaped by external forces the Primal Monitor was a "self-assembling hyper-story".

That's exactly what PM is. A larger than life representation of all the stories that are, were, and all the stories that could be in the DC universe.

The metaphorical representation of the canvas on which all artists in all mediums translate ideas onto, under DC's umbrella. This is why FC absolutely kicks ass as a cosmic event.

Originally posted by Allankles
That's exactly what PM is. A larger than life representation of all the stories that are, were, and all the stories that could be in the DC universe.

The metaphorical representation of the canvas on which all artists in all mediums translate ideas onto, under DC's umbrella. This is why FC absolutely kicks ass as a cosmic event.


Superman Beyond really should have been its own separate Crisis IMO.

It pretty much was.

Baring the 2nd version of Mandrakk appearing in Final Crisis, the two-parter had a beginning and end.

probably stalemate, pre-retcon beyonder was about the same as TOAA wasn't he?

Originally posted by 753
probably stalemate, pre-retcon beyonder was about the same as TOAA wasn't he? No.Pre-retcon beyonder was about the same as thanos w/ HOTU and he was but a pawn to TOAA.

Originally posted by Galan007
My bad. Dax Novu was the original Monitor/probe (who later became Mandrakk.) Rox Ogama was of the current race of Monitors, and ultimately transformed into the second incarnation of Mandrakk.

So replace Rox, with Dax. Nice save.

Care to misinterpret more events?

Originally posted by Blanket
Nice save.

Care to misinterpret more events?


over