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Luke as of ROTJ takes on Barriss Offee, who was quite a skilled Padawan, turned Knight.

Who do you think wins?

I don't think Offee was good enough to take on Skywalker.

Skywalker

Offee get handled very badly

Barriss Offee had a lot more formal training then Skywalker did, even if she lacks the raw power. A strong Form III practitioner and someone who survived the slaughter of Geonosis. And she was hardly a lightweight when it came to the Force. I'm not saying she's a clear-cut winner, but I think some of you are undercutting her talents here.

Agree with you Ryan, but she's more rank and file.

Originally posted by Andrew Ryan
Barriss Offee had a lot more formal training then Skywalker did, even if she lacks the raw power. A strong Form III practitioner and someone who survived the slaughter of Geonosis. And she was hardly a lightweight when it came to the Force. I'm not saying she's a clear-cut winner, but I think some of you are undercutting her talents here.
Skywalker outdueled Vader... Barriss has nothing on him.

Yea, what ares said. Barriss was likely a fairly above-average knight like most ones that get attention, but she would've never held her own in a duel with Vader.

In the book RoTJ, the Emperor feared Luke's power and Vader even admitted he couldn't believe how strong Luke became in such a short time follow ESB. Offee, I believe . . . no clearly doesn't have the strength of Luke.

who cares what they think.

fallible third parties aside, skywalkers fighting style was all power with no refinement or fluidity or tact to it; he was literally just swinging his lightsaber around in a blind rage. offee would manhandle him.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
who cares what they think.

fallible third parties aside, skywalkers fighting style was all power with no refinement or fluidity or tact to it; he was literally just swinging his lightsaber around in a blind rage.

You talk about fallible third parties, and then you give your interpretation of Skywalker's style as evidence? really?

I have to disagree. Vader stated that that Luke had honed his lightsaber skill (couldn't find Luke's form). When Luke unleashed his fury shortly after the Emperor goaded him, he embarressed Vader and pissed him off. Luke's raw power in the Force would easily overpower Offee. The Emperor would laugh away Offee, but took Luke seriously.

Originally posted by truejedi
You talk about fallible third parties, and then you give your interpretation of Skywalker's style as evidence? really?

err... how is that a contradiction?

errr... Why should I listen to you instead of Darth Vader?

i wasnt aware darth vader had out of universe knowledge.

He has a better insight of Luke's ability than you do, that's for sure. Do you have a star wars source that agrees with your assessment of his ability?

"Your skills are complete."

Skywalkers learn fast.

no, he doesnt have a better assessment than i.

i do have a source that agrees with my assessment. check it out.

3:08 to 4:13 sums up lukes ability pretty well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRY5dl_oxvo

yay for ultimate canon; the movies themselves, which overrides everything and anything else!

Another reason - before he became Vader, Anakin/Vader knew Offee's abilities in both lightsaber and the Force. Why did Vader (it states in the book too) want to rule the galaxy with his son? If Luke got really pissed off in RoTJ, it's possible, but unlikely he could have killed the Emperor. Even a fully trained Offee couldn't do that. Luke could.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRY5dl_oxvo



Yeah, but I disagree. I believe Luke's strategy there is very refined and skillful. What can you say to overcome that? That's why I can't take your assessment as canon, anybody disagreeing negates that. You know this.

right, and if you say the sky is green what can i say to override that.

thats... nice. i dont see what it has to do with this debate though.

regardless, the correct answer is that if you say its very skillful and tactical then that just proves that you dont know much about swordfighting, or fighting in general. so it hardly matters.

To fight you don't always need a lightsaber. There are other means to fight such as in ESB when Vader was throwing crap at Luke with the Force. If Luke started throwing junk at Offee during a scrap, Offee would be distracted, then it would be an easy kill.

You have to be kidding Marvel. Your interpretation of what you see on screen is now canon? When has that EVER held any weight on this website?

wut? im not sure i follow your logic. the films are considered primary canon. so... how am i in the wrong for following what the films show?

Not true Marvel. Luke was more than holding than his own against Vader especially at the end. He even handed his lightsaber to him, but when Vader pissed him off about Leia, Luke ripped through his (Vader's) Force shield and grabbed his lightsaber and handed Vader's ass to him.

Now, if that doesn't demonstrate Luke's power or lightsaber skills, then what does? Offee simply doesn't stand a chance.

The film shows Luke acting like an idiot and swinging his lightsaber like a baseball bat with no finesse or skill at all.

he defeated vader by swinging his sword in a frenzied haste like ray Charles at a a pinata festival. doesnt speak well for vader in that moment either.

though to be fair, post RotS vader's forte has never been with lightsabers, more with his powerful command of the force.

Besides me and a few others has anyone read RoTJ? In the book Force Unleashed, Galen Marek stated that he (Vader) combined the forms Ataru, Djem So and I think Soresu (correct me if I'm wrong). Luke defeated a Vader utilizing the 'swinging like a baseball bat' form? So can anyone explain to me how Luke was able to defeat that lightsaber form?

I don't know what form Luke used, but he would be able to defeat to his superiority in the Force and lightsaber. A rank and file Jedi like Offee can't.

obviously, vaders knowledge of those forms wasnt enough to overcome luke's frenzied retard charge. i watched the video again, it looks as if luke almost stumbles at 3:16

losing to luke really is pretty much vaders lowest point in the whole series.

and again translucent, thats an a>b>c argument

Some of that simply has to be chalked up to choerography at the time. They *were* supposed to be skilled fighters going at it.

possibly. personally, i could only see that with vader. from the movie standpoint luke never received formal training with the lightsaber. obi-wan died before he could train him, yoda died before he could train him. so from where could luke learn PT level training in two or so years? it makes perfect sense that he'd have to resort to swinging the thing around like a bat.

Vader was pretty heavily holding back against Luke and Luke only caught him by surprise with a sudden burst of the darkside amp. ROTJ Luke isn't even close to Vaders level.

Heck, when Celeste Morne fought him she scoffed at the very notion that he was a jedi and curbstomped him. He really isn't that great in swordsmanship.

edit.

Choreography back then was terrible, just look at the original trilogy, then look at the new one, that's obvious. Read the books and comics, and you'll see that while Vader could no longer perform the flashy Ataru like usual, he mixed a few styles and dominated based on height, raw power, skill, and bursts of speed you wouldn't expect from him.

I'm not saying Luke would stomp, but he would take a majority over Barriss.

wrong thread

edited.

Originally posted by Galan007
edit.

i do not remember that segment happening that way in the novel at all 0_0

surprise of the day

Edit: This no longer applies.

.... he's referring to her fight with luke.



context.

N
.... he's referring to her fight with luke.



context.

Why are there so many edits here?

Edit

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader was pretty heavily holding back against Luke and Luke only caught him by surprise with a sudden burst of the darkside amp. ROTJ Luke isn't even close to Vaders level.
I disagree. In SotE Vader muses that Luke managed to hurt him despite the fact that he was not holding back. He goes on saying Luke was the most powerful Jedi he had ever fought.


Very undersatndable. Luke at this time had very little training, after all this is before ESB. He only trained with Kenobi for a couple of hours.

Yeah, but didn't Luke have the Kaiburr crystal AND Ben's ghost helping him out?



And he doesn't have any other lightsaber training afterwards that I'm aware of.

SotE isnt even canon... thats been established many times >_>

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, but didn't Luke have the Kaiburr crystal AND Ben's ghost helping him out?
Nah, that's in Splinter's of the Mind's Eye. I was talking about Shadows of the Empire in which Vader muses over his duel with Luke in ESB.


He gets more practice. Its fairly obvious he is taught to use his saber his training with Yoda, anyway he uses his lightsaber to defeat the King of the Dragonsnakes. Not to mention Yoda furthered Luke's connection with the force, thus making him more deadily with the saber as well.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
SotE isnt even canon... thats been established many times >_>
What? lol.

SotME was created after ANH as a sequel in case ANH bombed in theaters, and as a result there's a ton of content in it that contradicts the entire series. for example its stated in the book that vader's lightsaber is blue, its stated that luke shot down vader at the end of a new hope, not han, han is never mentioned even once in the novel because lucas wasnt going to include him in ESB at first, luke is trained well enough to cut off vaders arm yet he can barely hold his own in ESB, leia with zero training can resist force attacks from vader, the kaiburr crystal is supposedly a power-up put into lukes lightsaber but is never mentioned again in any other eu, etc.

the whole thing was essentially retconned by ESB...

SotME is canon it has been refrenced in other sources. Its also in the timeline in the front of more recent books. And the only reason Luke managed to chop off Vader's arm was because he was possessed by Kenobi and empowered by the Kaibuur Crystal. Vader meanwhile was driven mad by its power. I just wish it was noncanon...

However I was talking about Shadows of the Empire.

well now i feel silly.

You would.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader was pretty heavily holding back against Luke and Luke only caught him by surprise with a sudden burst of the darkside amp. ROTJ Luke isn't even close to Vaders level.

Heck, when Celeste Morne fought him she scoffed at the very notion that he was a jedi and curbstomped him. He really isn't that great in swordsmanship.

That was pre-RotJ Luke though, even pre-ESB.

At that point there's no wonder he got stomped. Barriss could've beaten him then.

what lightsaber training did luke receive between ANH and RotJ that would make him a competent fighter.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
what lightsaber training did luke receive between ANH and RotJ that would make him a competent fighter.

Yoda's training (which, while not saber-centric, did improve him across the board), more experience with the rebellion in lots of combat (several years of fighting). Getting a first-hand lesson from his dad in ESB. Whatever stuff he did between ESB that made him go from being toyed with by Vader to able to hold his own.

so... nothing.

that would explain why he was swinging his bat like ray charles at a batting cage. vader being overwhelmed by it really is... inconsequential.

That's just the choreography of the day. There was no Ray Park or expectation for great swordsmanship.

The characters refer to him as improving, Vader's supposed to be more badass than all but a few of the Jedi seen in the PT, etc..

Originally posted by Q99
Yoda's training (which, while not saber-centric, did improve him across the board)

Quote please.



Irrelevant.



Irrelevant.

Also quote.



So?

Originally posted by Q99
That's just the choreography of the day. There was no Ray Park or expectation for great swordsmanship.

The characters refer to him as improving, Vader's supposed to be more badass than all but a few of the Jedi seen in the PT, etc..

The choreography in ESB was much better. Just because things didn't move as fast, does not mean that they had bad choreography. People have gotten too into the flashy nonsense fighting of the PT.

Originally posted by Shoes
Quote please.
Use your brain.


Nope.

Common sense.


So your going to discredit characters despite having no evidence for the contrary?

Combat experience helping improve combat skill is a pretty darn straitforward thing.

Originally posted by Autokrat
The choreography in ESB was much better. Just because things didn't move as fast, does not mean that they had bad choreography. People have gotten too into the flashy nonsense fighting of the PT.

Still, even if the choreography was worse, doesn't mean the characters were supposed to be. From dialog we know it's the opposite.

Originally posted by ares834
Use your brain.


To what extent did Yoda's training help Luke? And quote please.



Stormtroopers are not Barriss.



I didn't realize Luke engaged the Empire in actual ground combat consistently for several years between ANH and ROTJ.

Barriss on the other hand, was a veteran of the Clone Wars, and managed to survive Order 66.



You have stated no sources, no quotes, no feats for Luke. How could I possibly discredit a non-existent argument? See the above.

Originally posted by Shoes
To what extent did Yoda's training help Luke? And quote please.
Yoda taught him to use the force... Clearly his training was helpful as he held his own against Vader who has taken down Jedi far more powerful than Barriss.



Never said they were, but combat expirence is combat expirence.


There were plenty of battles he fought in between ESB and RotJ. Read the marvel comics. Or read SotE.


She did not survive Order 66...


I only need one feat, Luke defeated Vader. Barriss has no other feats in a similar caliber to this. None at all.

Originally posted by ares834
Yoda taught him to use the force... Clearly his training was helpful as he held his own against Vader who has taken down Jedi far more powerful than Barriss.

this is circular reasoning.

"luke defeated vader because hsi skills had improved due to hsi training."

"what was the extent of this training?"

"well it was good enough to give him the skills to best vader."

thats tautology i believe.

ares has as good an argument as "Luke was not a skilled lightsaber duelist, because I say so." like you were using earlier, Marvel.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
this is circular reasoning.

"luke defeated vader because hsi skills had improved due to hsi training."
I never said this.


I have said this.


Regardless Barriss has no feat to compare to Luke besting Vader.

Originally posted by ares834
Yoda taught him to use the force... Clearly his training was helpful as he held his own against Vader who has taken down Jedi far more powerful than Barriss.




Vader was holding back



CW



Misread this. Nonetheless, I doubt Luke could have.

Precisely how much it helped? Dunno. That it helped? That's pretty clear.

Originally posted by Shoes

I didn't realize Luke engaged the Empire in actual ground combat consistently for several years between ANH and ROTJ.

Well judging by the comics we have a whole lot of ground missions by him during that time, he was in plenty of fighting. 4 years when he's one of the most wanted people in the galaxy after all. A fair amount of it's off-screen so we don't know if he was studying Obi-Wan's and Yoda's journals like mad, replaying the Bespin fight in his head over and over, or what, but he definitely did get more skilled and experienced.

We see the results. Vader comments on his skill jumping between ESB and RotJ. He's able to fight a whole lot more conventional forces successfully, like we see on the sail barge.

hes a jedi knight by rotj isnt he? for some reason.

Originally posted by Shoes


Vader was holding back
Quote? LOLZ.


Never said she didn't have combat exprience.


Cool. I'm not using it as a strike against Barriss as plenty of very competent Jedi were killed.


Go ahead and name a feat tha Barriss has preformed that is better than Luke's.

BTW Vader considers Luke to be the most powerful Jedi he has ever fought. Yes it may be fatherly pride, but it shows Luke in a good light anyways.

Originally posted by Q99
Precisely how much it helped? Dunno. That it helped? That's pretty clear.


The question was this:



You have not answered this. So, without an answer, Vader's loss was either:

a) Him holding back
b) PIS

Vader was obviously a force titan. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that Vader would trash Luke in the force. Prove Luke's saber proficiency, and I will concede the point.



See the above.



Proof? I strongly suggest you choose another feat aside from his supposed victory over Vader.

EDIT 2:

Originally posted by ares834


Go ahead and name a feat tha Barriss has preformed


I suppose holding up several tons of rock when trapped in a cave . I don't exactly watch CW. Real disappointment.



See above.

Originally posted by Shoes
Vader was obviously a force titan. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that Vader would trash Luke in the force. Prove Luke's saber proficiency, and I will concede the point.

Its in SotE. I don't have it on me right now (I'll have it tomorrow night) but Vader muses that had Luke given into his anger he would have been defeated.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
this is circular reasoning.

"luke defeated vader because hsi skills had improved due to hsi training."

"what was the extent of this training?"

"well it was good enough to give him the skills to best vader."

thats tautology i believe.

A tautology would be something like: P>P

A tautology is a statement that is always true regardless of how it is interpreted. On a truth table its always true. Essentially a tautology in an argument is a sign that either someone is using math or is making unfounded truth claims.

okay, thanks for clearing that up.

Or (C) He improved off-screen due to experience and self-training, which he had ample opportunity, and training under a former Grand Master of the Order may've included some saber instruction too.

We have Vader *and* Palpatine comment on his skills. Plus his performance against normal enemies has skyrocketed.

"We don't see how his skills improved, therefore his skills must not have improved, even though it's both mentioned and demonstrated they have," is not a logical leap to make.

You've not offering any evidence he hasn't improved, you're just assuming that if we don't see the training it can't have happened. We have character's words on it matching his improved results.

Vader was clearly toying with him in ESB, but there's no mention or sign of him doing so by anyone in RotJ. So you're going to have to provide evidence on that, not just default to it.

Luke had the means to improve, the motive to, and the opportunity (3 years between ANH and ESB, one more between ESB and RotJ, training with a Jedi master, time in a warzone under which many missions were undertaken).

So Vader was lying to Luke about how good he had gotten with a lightsaber? Seriously? THAT'S the argument right now?

Why in the HECK would he do that?

Originally posted by truejedi
So Vader was lying to Luke about how good he had gotten with a lightsaber? Seriously? THAT'S the argument right now?

Why in the HECK would he do that?

Also apparently holding back far more than the ESB 'obviously toying with him' fight?

Honestly I'm not sure how someone could be of the opinion that Luke didn't improve a ton between the movies.

Barriss Offee was killed in the Clone Wars during Order 66. Officially she was a Jedi Healer and her clones murdered her on Felucia. Read Star Wars: Death Star.

Back to the point, Luke did manage to improve - when Luke attacked the first time and kicked him to the floor Vader stated:

"For the first time, the thought entered Vader's mind that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had aquired since their last duel, in Cloud City-not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth."

Well Yoda, Vader, The Emporer and Luke himself ALL thought Luke had the skills of a Jedi Knight. And Vader and the Emporer saw him as an especially Powerful Jedi Knight.

Luke- "But I came back to complete my training"
Yoda- "No more training do you require, already know you that which you need"
Luke- "Then I AM A Jedi??"
Yoda- "hahahaha... one thing remains, you Must Confront Vader"

Confronting Vader was obviously Luke's equivalent to the Jedi Trials.

Vader to Luke- "Your skills are now complete.. Indeed you are Powerful as the Emporer has Forseen"

The Emporer to Vader "Hes grown Strong in the Force since you last met. Only TOGETHER can we bring him to the Dark Side of the Force."

Emporer- "Take your fathers place at my side"
Luke- "No! Il never turn to the Darkside. Youve failed your highness! Im a Jedi! Like my Father before me!"
Emporer- "So be it. Jedi."

Now if just one character said that then I could agree it could just be the opinion of an In-Universe fallible character. But thats just too many In-Universe characters for me to ignore.

Not to mention that Movie Novelisations are considered G-Canon and that has Vader admitting being overpowered by Luke quite badly in the ROTJ novel.

And just look at the Title of the movie for God's sakes.. Return of the Jedi! Is anyone really arguing that Luke wasnt a True Jedi yet because he wasnt actually skilled enough??!! I doubt Lucas would agree.

Luke wielded Knight level abilities before he faced Vader in RoTJ. He had to face Vader to before he could call himself a Jedi Knight. 'Return of the Jedi' has another meaning - the Jedi had been destroyed due to Order 66. Luke was the first (other than Galen Marek) in over 30 years, to have extensive training in the Jedi arts and be knighted.

Originally posted by Q99
Or (C) He improved off-screen due to experience and self-training, which he had ample opportunity, and training under a former Grand Master of the Order may've included some saber instruction too.



I am awaiting Ares' post to clear things up on this subject, because you don't have a shred of proof of this. If there is no quote in SotE, I doubt any exists at all. What Translucent said is canon, but if you dissect each character, and look at their various feat and accolades, it doesn't add up. This is what leads me to believe that Vader's loss was PIS. Moreover, for this to be actually considered a feat, Luke's lightsaber skills must have been so far beyond Vader's, that he couldn't overpower him with the force. So far, I've yet to see an example of this. Anyone in possession of SotE is welcome to prove me wrong. To reiterate, prove Luke's lightsaber superiority, using anything else but his fight with Vader, and theories with no support.

I just glanced up at the title. What exactly do we know about Barriss?

feats and accolades fall to the wayside when you consider actual results from a fight.
If the Luke-Vader fight was PIS, and the Maul and Kenobi fight was PIS, and the Kenobi-Anakin fight was PIS (all of these have been argued) then basically what you are saying is you know better than lucas who should have won these fights.

Why should I take your opinion over Lucas's?

Originally posted by Shoes
I am awaiting Ares' post to clear things up on this subject, because you don't have a shred of proof of this. If there is no quote in SotE, I doubt any exists at all.

Hey, I'm mostly talking about stuff from *Return of the Jedi*, and him having plenty of opportunity for the state increase from the move to happen.

The idea that Luke didn't improve his skills to an impressive level between the movies is flat-out contradicted by highest level canon.




Says you. Evidence?

We know the results and we know there was opportunity. If someone goes off screen, then comes back with money, and someone says, "Hey, you have a lot more money," then I can assume there's a bank in the missing section, I don't need to assume the ability to purchase an expensive speeder is PIS.

There's no evidence he didn't train and get better, there is that he did.



Base on, as far as I can tell, nothing.



Hm, we *saw* Luke's force training, Palpatine commented on his tremendous strength in the force, and we know he basically has the potential of non-burned Anakin.

He needs to be good enough to beat Vader in a sword duel, but it's not like he couldn't be Vader's equal in the force power by this point.




Palpatine's comments. Yoda's comments. The quotes from the books. Really, have you even watched RotJ?

Prove Luke's inferiority. You've provided nothing to back your claims up. If you have to include a "but" to eliminate a major plot scene, that's a lot more than you've got.

"We didn't see him train in the one year of downtime between ESB and RotJ, so therefore he didn't, even though the three strongest force users in the galaxy all faun over how much he's improved," is not good logic.



A reasonable amount, though others are likely more expert than I.


But let's focus on your bewildering assertion that Luke didn't get more powerful between the movies.

Though I do think Vader could have beat Luke with the Force quite easily. ROTJ Luke simply didnt have the mastery of the Force to compete with the likes of Vader on that level.

However Vader and the Emporer wernt looking for Vader to simply take Luke out with a Force move. They were goading him into a Lightsaber combat. And testing how strong he was in that respect.

Not that Luke was bad with the force. End of the day he had the skills of a Jedi Knight, and the Power of a Skywalker. He Force choked 2 Gamorrean guards simultaneously and with Ridiculous ease!

So no. I dnt see Barriss being a match for Luke in the Force or Sabers.

I'd like to see a thread on Master Luminara against ROTJ Luke Skywalker.