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Both have fought extremely powerful Sith Lords so who wins this battle? The Old Republic Jedi or the Mandalorian trained Force wielder?

Jaina probably.

Jaina. Whatever Bastila has to her resume doesn't compete with Jaina's.

Jaina Solo has Skywalker-force aptitude and a lot of training. She's a fearsome duelist and I don't think Bastila is the same level.

Don't discount Bastila so easily. She was the leader of the team sent to stop Revan, after all.

good hard fought match.. the sword of the jedi 7/10 ftw

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Don't discount Bastila so easily. She was the leader of the team sent to stop Revan, after all.

True, but that was still a team and her forte was in battle coordination. Jaina went after her brother solo.

Mando training to fight dirty in addition to great duelist skill doesn't hurt.

I don't know one thing that Bastilla ever accomplished.

I'm saddened that DT didn't consider to mention that this should be a straight up catfight.

'Cat fights' between trained warriors tend to be normal martial arts battles.

Originally posted by Q99
'Cat fights' between trained warriors tend to be normal martial arts battles.

...

13eDfrMgFQM

LOL

Originally posted by Q99
True, but that was still a team and her forte was in battle coordination. Jaina went after her brother solo. Ha! I get it.

Originally posted by Q99 True, but that was still a team and her forte was in battle coordination. Jaina went after her brother solo.
6mv-1jlY0o0

We recieved 0 indication that Bastilla had the ability to beat Revan. Their fight was interrupted.

Originally posted by truejedi
Revan.

What do we know about him?

He lead the Jedi against the Mandalorians, a buncha known badasses like Kreia thought he was more badass than they were, and he schooled Malak.

Originally posted by Q99
He lead the Jedi against the Mandalorians, a buncha known badasses like Kreia thought he was more badass than they were, and he schooled Malak.

I was actually asking for specific instances of him displaying his force power, or the level of his lightsaber mastery skill. Also, what do we know about Malak?

nothing. about any of them. thus the term unknown.

Sure we do. Malak was a major character in the KotoR comics and was shown to be a pretty skilled Jedi even before he became a Sith.

Plus, there is the info from the games themselves. We know he had enough power to maintain the starforge, where even darkside Bastila didn't, for example.


Revan, we know his rough level by comparison to other people, but as he's a main character, the specifics on whether he spams force or was a great duelist or what is purposefully left fuzzy so as to allow players customization room.

Malak, Darth Traya, and others on the other hand we see showing and are not so fuzzy.

Traya killed three Jedi high council masters in the same fight, she's known for wielding three lightsabers at once via TK, and using a whole lot of force abilities (beast control, TK, lightning, foresight, etc.). And she looked up to Revan as the stronger in the force.

Malak, on the other hand, was a more normal Sith beatstick with a few tricks. Lightning and saber were the focus of his skills, but he could also freeze someone with the force. He'd also drain the life from others to replenish his strength. So a fairly dangerous fighter with plenty of raw power, but not with the wide range that Traya has or as high of showings, and of course Revan ultimately stomped him.

My Revan only learned force aura, and he fought with a blaster rifle. Since there is no indication as to how Revan beat Malak, I see an unknown.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure we do. Malak was a major character in the KotoR comics and was shown to be a pretty skilled Jedi even before he became a Sith.

Plus, there is the info from the games themselves. We know he had enough power to maintain the starforge, where even darkside Bastila didn't, for example.


Revan, we know his rough level by comparison to other people, but as he's a main character, the specifics on whether he spams force or was a great duelist or what is purposefully left fuzzy so as to allow players customization room.

Malak, Darth Traya, and others on the other hand we see showing and are not so fuzzy.

Traya killed three Jedi high council masters in the same fight, she's known for wielding three lightsabers at once via TK, and using a whole lot of force abilities (beast control, TK, lightning, foresight, etc.). And she looked up to Revan as the stronger in the force.

Malak, on the other hand, was a more normal Sith beatstick with a few tricks. Lightning and saber were the focus of his skills, but he could also freeze someone with the force. He'd also drain the life from others to replenish his strength. So a fairly dangerous fighter with plenty of raw power, but not with the wide range that Traya has or as high of showings, and of course Revan ultimately stomped him.

but we can't quantify ANY of that.

i beat malak with two heavy blaster pistols and grenades.

Originally posted by truejedi
but we can't quantify ANY of that.



Yep.



What?



Yep.



What?



Yep.



What?



Yep.



What?



She believed Revan was stronger in the force, and Revan was beaten by Malak?

Originally posted by Shoes
She believed Revan was stronger in the force, and Revan was beaten by Malak?



When did Malak defeat Revan?

BTW Revan did cut of Malak's jaw in a lightsaber duel. Malak is also pretty powerful with the force. He has been shown capable of effortlessly killing Jedi, place Bastilla in a stasis, and he forces pushes Rohlan very far in the comics.

Still both are realatively unknows.

jawdrop

WHEN HE TOOK HIS PLACE AS MASTER

You mean when revan is preparing to battle a group of Jedi and Malak decides to fire on Revan's ship... That's not beating him.

indeed!

Originally posted by ares834
You mean when revan is preparing to battle a group of Jedi and Malak decides to fire on Revan's ship... That's not beating him.

Yea, Revan was always > Malak, Malak just took an opportunity to steal the throne anyway, and for a time it worked.

He thought he could beat the revived Revan... but lost again.

Woah. I was under the impression that Malak assaulted Revan's mind, causing his memory to be lost and his force power to be diminished.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, Revan was always > Malak, Malak just took an opportunity to steal the throne anyway, and for a time it worked.

He thought he could beat the revived Revan... but lost again.

Revan > Malak because of storyline. Suppose Revan beat Malak unarmed. After countless hits from Malak's lightning, after countless drains on his life, he still knocks Malak out. This is why any debate involving KotOR will always come back to this: Revan is unkown. Malak is unkown.

Originally posted by Shoes
Woah. I was under the impression that Malak assaulted Revan's mind, causing his memory to be lost and his force power to be diminished.

No, quite different. Due to the attack, he ended up in the custody of the Jedi, who wiped his mind.






You have the weirdest arguments.

Anyone > anyone is because of the story line. It is part of a story.

Revan beat Malak when they were both Sith in the past, hence the jaw. Revan beats him again late in the game, no matter the ending (and the lightside ending is canon).


Malak's shown in multiple sources, and the game itself is a source, so no unknowns here.

This is meant to be a humorous? I do not find it so.



This is one of the least insightful things that has ever been said ever.

This is one of the least correct things said in any language during the last five minutes (on a planet with about 6 billion people, any number of which could be saying something unintelligent at any given time).

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
This is one of the least correct things said in any language during the last five minutes



Elaborate? He was in the KotoR comic with Jayne and we saw him in multiple fights in his Jedi days. So that's one source.

And, the game itself is a source. It's sometimes a fuzzy source for aforementioned reason, but stuff from it is hardly *unknown*. NPCs with a fair amount of screen time do have useful information on them.

Revan is not an unknown... Just ask Legend he'll show you just how powerful Revan is.

Originally posted by ares834
Revan is not an unknown... Just ask Legend he'll show you just how powerful Revan is.

Revan and the Exile are both trickier in that they're main characters.

So we have "canon powerful characters with observed badass feats say they're strong, but by nature we'll never find out the details unless a different version of the events is made."

Side-characters though, who follow a set plot? They have consistent portrayals and often have shown up in other stuff in that era.

It is not hard to quantify a character from a video game just because they're from a video game. If they do stuff in cutscenes and have a lot of screen time, that tells us a lot. It's only hard to tell some specific characters because they were not set in stone like the NPCs and other party members.

Originally posted by truejedi We recieved 0 indication that Bastilla had the ability to beat Revan. Their fight was interrupted.
She did killed his skilled quardians by herself. The point is that her forte was not just battle meditation. Why would the Jedi council want to send important agents in such a dangerous mission when they wouldn't be good in combat?

In addition, Jaina was also no match for Darth Caedus.

Originally posted by ares834 When did Malak defeat Revan?
1st phase of confrontation:

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2nd phase of confrontation:

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Originally posted by Shoes Woah. I was under the impression that Malak assaulted Revan's mind, causing his memory to be lost and his force power to be diminished.
This is what happened:

6mv-1jlY0o0

Malak ordered firing on Revan's position. This happened after Revan cut Malak's jaw in a duel prior to the events of KoTOR. Malak survived and waited for an opportunity to return the favor.

Originally posted by Shoes Revan > Malak because of storyline. Suppose Revan beat Malak unarmed. After countless hits from Malak's lightning, after countless drains on his life, he still knocks Malak out. This is why any debate involving KotOR will always come back to this: Revan is unkown. Malak is unkown.
To begin with, Malak was a highly skilled lightsaber duelist:

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5825/malakv.th.jpg

Malak effortlessly blocks firing of Rohlan Dyre from above. (This scene also reminds me of Mace Windu's confrontation with Jango Fett. )

This was during his days as a Jedi. He became more powerful after the end of the Mandalorian Wars.

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/17531/874113-479px_darth_malak_large.jpg

By JCW, his skills had improved to the point that he could handle multiple opponents simultaneously by himself:

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Malak's effortlessly kills two Jedi simultaneously at 2:05 - 2:17.

In addition, see his confrontation with Revan and his companions on Leviathan. In a 3 vs 1 match - Malak captured 1 and forced other 2 on retreat.

Originally posted by Shoes
Yep.



What?



Yep.



What?



Yep.



What?



Yep.



What?



She believed Revan was stronger in the force, and Revan was beaten by Malak?




Were you planning on making an argument Shoes? Because for all the nice words you put up there, you failed to quantify ANYTHING.

Who the hell is Rohlan Dyre and why is deflecting blaster bolts an impressive feat now?

Does this mean that TPM Kenobi is as powerful as Malak?



Inside a dark side nexus. Against two generic Jedi. Neither of which have a name, let alone a feat. (Who may even have had the same face?)

Originally posted by Q99
If they do stuff in cutscenes and have a lot of screen time, that tells us a lot.

Does it? I suppose by closely examining each cutscene with Revan, you can determine which lightsaber forms he learned. Or the degree of his force powers.



Elaborate. Did he even achieve mastery?



No, just typing.

An extremely badass Mandalorian, something of a legend among them during the Mandalorian wars.

We also learn he has significant force potential and had unconsciously used it, he just didn't know it.


Originally posted by Shoes
Does it?

Yes.

We know what he did. We know what people he fought did. We know what people they fought and trained with did. We have 50 issues and two games worth of stuff from the era.

From simple comparison, we can get a general view of his area at the least.

Our best data on Revan is on his generalship, but we are not operating in an information void by any means.

Originally posted by Q99

Yes.



Specify.

/off topic

Bastila did nothign

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Who the hell is Rohlan Dyre and why is deflecting blaster bolts an impressive feat now?
Rohlan Dyre was one of the commanders in Mandalorian forces and a highly skilled and respected warrior.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Does this mean that TPM Kenobi is as powerful as Malak?
The difference is that Malak managed to overpower Rohlan despite the skill and gadgets of latter.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Inside a dark side nexus. Against two generic Jedi. Neither of which have a name, let alone a feat. (Who may even have had the same face?)
Let us think logically - How did those two Jedi got that far? We do see several Jedi Strike Teams entering Star Forge. Among them, those two would have great skill to reach that far amidst the heavy resistance. However, they eventually met Malak and he incapacitated them with his Force powers simultaneously and killed them in front of Revan.

Originally posted by Shoes
Elaborate. Did he even achieve mastery?
According to Drew, he did.

Legend, are you ever going to respond to the thread where you got caught blatantly lying about your original argument? Remember? cause then you disappeared for 8 months, and now you are back spewing the same crap?

I'm very interested on seeing how you wiggle out of it. I was interested then, and I've not yet lost interest.

Originally posted by truejedi
Legend, are you ever going to respond to the thread where you got caught blatantly lying about your original argument? Remember? cause then you disappeared for 8 months, and now you are back spewing the same crap?

I'm very interested on seeing how you wiggle out of it. I was interested then, and I've not yet lost interest.
No! My response is not coming in that thread. I would let it die.

I am back not to solely argue for KoTOR but to participate in all topics of interest.

As is the case in this thread, my arguments will be strictly based on what has been depicted in proper and reliable sources and opinions of authors. Personal opinion is a thing of the past now. I would advice you to move on as well.

That wasn't Rohlan Dyre, that was Deamgol disguised as Rohlan. Not to mention that Malak did nothing impressive during those comics. JJM adheres to the Not Faster Than An Eyeblink School of Jedi abilities, so we have Malak getting beaten by non Force sensitive Jareel, punched in the face by Deamgol (he later nearly beat the shit out of Deamgol, but the still surprised him), and flattened by Mandalore.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100312063521/starwars/images/7/70/MalakDyreFight1.jpg

Originally posted by Autokrat
That wasn't Rohlan Dyre, that was Deamgol disguised as Rohlan.
My bad!

However, Demagol could use the Force (being a Force sensitive), was nonetheless a Mandalorian warrior, and a big nemesis to Jedi (specially known for performing experiments on Jedi captives). While he engaged Malak, he was well prepared: Using jetpack for keeping safe distance and firing relentlessly with twin blasters. And yet, Malak effortlessly deflected his fire and overpowered him.

Originally posted by Autokrat
Not to mention that Malak did nothing impressive during those comics. JJM adheres to the Not Faster Than An Eyeblink School of Jedi abilities,
Malak only began to show his potential once he reached the rank of the commander during the Mandalorian Wars. In addition, The KoTOR comics are not expected to cover the Mandalorian Wars till the end and his embrace of the dark side. However, the Star Wars Databank briefly covers the scenario like this: Foremost among the heroes of this era were the Jedi warriors Malak and Revan. Revan's clever military strategies proved successful time and again, while Malak gained a reputation as a headstrong warrior who would recklessly charge into danger.

Originally posted by Autokrat
so we have Malak getting beaten by non Force sensitive Jareel,
Malak had soft corner for her. It wasn't a duel of life and death for him. He also did not used any Force powers.

Originally posted by Autokrat
punched in the face by Deamgol (he later nearly beat the shit out of Deamgol, but the still surprised him),
Malak would have killed Demagol, if his companions would not have stopped him. The guise of Rohlan also helped Demagol.

Originally posted by Autokrat
and flattened by Mandalore.
Malak got outclassed by his attack. However, he decided not to fight him at that time.

Originally posted by truejedi
Legend, are you ever going to respond to the thread where you got caught blatantly lying about your original argument? Remember? cause then you disappeared for 8 months, and now you are back spewing the same crap?

I'm very interested on seeing how you wiggle out of it. I was interested then, and I've not yet lost interest.


LMFAO

You guys! Don't push him away, we need the arguments!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Rohlan Dyre was one of the commanders in Mandalorian forces and a highly skilled and respected warrior.

He still wasn't a trained force user, which means his chances to survive confrontation with Jedi (regardless of their skill-level) were pretty low. And please: padawans are capable of deflecting (and even redirecting) blaster shots. Some are even capable of handling more than one opponent shooting at them. So where is the display of skill. Malak can block two blaster pistols fired by one individual? ANH Luke could probably pull that off (while wearing a helmet with visor down, making him blind).



In AotC Kenobi almost kills Jango Fett, a guy who had killed Jedi with his bare hands, despite of the Mandalorians gimmicks and the fact that he got fire support from a freakin space-ship. So Malak < AotC Kenobi? Somehow I don't find that impressive.



You call that "logical thinking"?

Did you, by chance, forget that Revan drew most of the attention (translation: enemies) to himself (and his company), which would have allowed the other Jedi to slip through the Star Forge with relative few opponents in their way? May I also remind you that said opponents would have consisted of either droids (lol) or the Sith War equivalent of storm troopers (rofl)? And even that only applies if they didn't switch on their handy stealth devices and sneak through the station without confronting a single enemy.

And WTF: We don't know what happened before the two Jedi appeared in the cut-scene. They could have been disabled by other people and just brought to Malak for interrogation or execution. If they had actually fought their way to Malak, their wouldn't have been any opponents left for Revan, correct? But since there were enemies presents "thinking logically" leads to the conclusion that neither did they fought their way through the Star Forge nor did Malak overpower them personally. He just executed two already defenseless people...

This renders your pity argument void.



Ulic Qel-Droma was capable of doing the same - with the difference that his opponent was sitting on a freaking Basilisk war mount. Kenobi essentially did the same - with the difference that his opponent was assisted by a star-ship firing at the Jedi. Yoda in RotS is seen to deflect blaster fire from eight Clone Troopers at the same time without effort - just to cut them all down in seconds after doing so. If you want to take the Clone War Cartoon as example, serveral Jedi were capable of taking entire armies down on their own.

So what is so impressive about defeating a single guy with two blasters? I don't know too many Jedi who would fail at a task like that...



I must have missed the testament to Malak's power there. So he is headstrong and recklessly charges into danger? I bet one could say the same about Han Solo, but he seldomly appears on the "list of powerful SW characters". I wonder why...



So Malak is so powerful, that he gets his ass kicked by a trained warrior without force powers? Wow...

Originally posted by Nephthys
Jaina probably.

Quoted for agreement.

Bastila. Quite easily I say.

Ancient Force-users just had a lot more powers in their arsenal, really. We're talking Force waves, Force storms, Force Drain... Remember the duel against Bastila on the Star Forge? Has Jaina ever displayed anything close to that?

Originally posted by Borbarad He still wasn't a trained force user, which means his chances to survive confrontation with Jedi (regardless of their skill-level) were pretty low. And please: padawans are capable of deflecting (and even redirecting) blaster shots. Some are even capable of handling more than one opponent shooting at them. So where is the display of skill. Malak can block two blaster pistols fired by one individual? ANH Luke could probably pull that off (while wearing a helmet with visor down, making him blind).
We are talking about Mandalorians and not average Sith and Republic Troopers. Mandalorians are supposed to be tough opponents for even Jedi.

In AotC Kenobi almost kills Jango Fett, a guy who had killed Jedi with his bare hands, despite of the Mandalorians gimmicks and the fact that he got fire support from a freakin space-ship. So Malak < AotC Kenobi? Somehow I don't find that impressive.
Did Malak failed?

He overpowered his foe and would have killed him. The guise of Rohlan and Malak's companions saved Demagol from death.

You call that "logical thinking"?

Did you, by chance, forget that Revan drew most of the attention (translation: enemies) to himself (and his company), which would have allowed the other Jedi to slip through the Star Forge with relative few opponents in their way? May I also remind you that said opponents would have consisted of either droids (lol) or the Sith War equivalent of storm troopers (rofl)? And even that only applies if they didn't switch on their handy stealth devices and sneak through the station without confronting a single enemy.
This does not means that other Jedi were not facing resistance. We clearly see Jedi Strike Teams engaging in combat. Also! The focus of KoTOR was on actions of Revan rather than on Jedi Strike Teams. In addition, we do not see any Jedi on the Star Forge using stealth devices.

And WTF: We don't know what happened before the two Jedi appeared in the cut-scene. They could have been disabled by other people and just brought to Malak for interrogation or execution. If they had actually fought their way to Malak, their wouldn't have been any opponents left for Revan, correct? But since there were enemies presents "thinking logically" leads to the conclusion that neither did they fought their way through the Star Forge nor did Malak overpower them personally. He just executed two already defenseless people...

This renders your pity argument void.
Maybe! There were other paths? Some doors on Star Forge were locked which indicate as such. Malak indeed directed a large chunk of his forces to stop Revan from advancing which helps your point. However, Star Forge was still not safe in other corners. Malak did not wanted any of his enemies to reach him. However, two other Jedi besides Revan did. And it would be more accurate to suggest that Malak executed two trained Jedi. They were defenseless due to unable to counter Malak's power in the force.

Ulic Qel-Droma was capable of doing the same - with the difference that his opponent was sitting on a freaking Basilisk war mount. Kenobi essentially did the same - with the difference that his opponent was assisted by a star-ship firing at the Jedi. Yoda in RotS is seen to deflect blaster fire from eight Clone Troopers at the same time without effort - just to cut them all down in seconds after doing so. If you want to take the Clone War Cartoon as example, serveral Jedi were capable of taking entire armies down on their own.
Ulic and Kenobi count among the best of the Jedi. And I saw Yoda capable of destroying a portion of a Droid army in CW. Several others you are talking about were assisted by entire battalions as well.

So what is so impressive about defeating a single guy with two blasters? I don't know too many Jedi who would fail at a task like that...
A reputed Mandalorian would be more accurate term. It was just the begining. Malak, later on, earned recognition for engaging in dangerous battles and winning them.

I must have missed the testament to Malak's power there. So he is headstrong and recklessly charges into danger? I bet one could say the same about Han Solo, but he seldomly appears on the "list of powerful SW characters". I wonder why...
You are comparing apples and oranges here.

So Malak is so powerful, that he gets his ass kicked by a trained warrior without force powers? Wow...
Numerous times, I have seen Jedi surprised by non-force sensitives. Mandalore - The Ultimate was the most powerful Mandalorian of that time. In addition, we do not see Malak pursuing a battle with him.