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Infinity Man
Takion
Orion
Lightray
Mr. Miracle
Big Barda

Vs.

Silver Surfer
Morg
Firelord
Stardust
Terrax
Red Shift

At standard levels, Lightray, Miracle, and Barda are borderline non-factors.

Heralds, ftw.

Originally posted by Galan007
At standard levels, Lightray, Miracle, and Barda are borderline non-factors.

Heralds, ftw.


pretty much everyone is at their most recent levels except for Mr. Miracle. No anti-life equation for him.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
pretty much everyone is at their most recent levels except for Mr. Miracle. No anti-life equation for him. Non-factors it is.

Originally posted by Galan007
At standard levels, Lightray, Miracle, and Barda are borderline non-factors.

Heralds, ftw.


you're not even considering that Infinity Man and Takion may be above high herald level? Barda and Mr. Miracle probably, but Lightray a non factor too... he's got some tricks up his sleeve doesn't he?

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Barda and Mr. Miracle probably, but Lightray a non factor too... he's got some tricks up his sleeve doesn't he? Nah.

Lightray could give Firelord a fight. Same with Redshift. He did hold his own against Orion.,

Originally posted by Galan007
Nah.


Oh snap!!! u just slapped Takion and Infinity Man fans!!! New Gods fans even!! =P

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Lightray could give Firelord a fight. Same with Redshift. He did hold his own against Orion.,

Plus, he's created a sun before, and knocked Highfather to his knees with a cheap shot. Impressive, considering Hightfather is about Skyfather level.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Oh snap!!! u just slapped Takion and Infinity Man fans!!! New Gods fans even!! =P No, just the Lightray fans. So hopefully the one or two guys won't be mad at me.

Originally posted by Galan007
No, just the Lightray fans. Hopefully the one or two guys won't be mad at me.


fight!!! fight!!!

srsly though... it would take at least 3 heralds to put down IM and Taks. and that 3 definitely has to have the Silver Surfer!!!

Originally posted by Galan007
No, just the Lightray fans. Hopefully the one or two guys won't be mad at me.

S'allright, long as we don't go there with Orion.

Firelord has some impressive feats too (Broke Surfers board, for one.)

But he's sort of like Heralds version of Lightray.. High feats, but generally looked down on compared to other heralds because of his lows. (About the time SpidermanVsFirelord was born. )

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
fight!!! fight!!!

srsly though... it would take at least 3 heralds to put down IM and Taks. and that 3 definitely has to have the Silver Surfer!!! Feat-wise Surfer can match (or possibly exceed) Takion. And before people start crying about that statement: yes, I understand full well that Takion was the 'avatar of the Source' or whatever - but look at his actual feats, then compare them to Surfer's... That's all I'm saying.

As for IM, you are correct. It would take multiple heralds to put him down, imo.

Originally posted by cdtm
S'allright, long as we don't go there with Orion.

Firelord has some impressive feats too (Broke Surfers board, for one.)

But he's sort of like Heralds version of Lightray.. High feats, but generally looked down on compared to other heralds because of his lows. (About the time SpidermanVsFirelord was born. )


oooh!!! why you gotta hit below the belt!?!? that was uncalled for. =P

Originally posted by Galan007
Feat-wise Surfer can match (or possibly exceed) Takion. And before people start crying about that statement: yes, I understand full well that Takion was the 'avatar of the Source' or whatever - but look at his actual feats, then compare them to Surfer's... That's all I'm saying.

As for IM, you are correct. It would take multiple heralds to put him down, imo.


since you dont think much of this New Gods roster.. look at my Team New Gods Vs. Team Marvel thread. i'm dying to know wut u think.

Orion, Takion, AND IM on the same team? I'd give this to the New Gods. Plus Mr. Miracle and Barda work better with each other. They're no slouch, either.

Well, this really is basically four on six. Personally, I think Surfer has the feats to go 1 vs 1 with Infinity Man and do well.

Toss out Barda and Miracle and put in someone like Metron and Mantis/Darkseid, and the scales start tipping towards team New Gods.

IM would crush Surfer one on one. Just look at what he did in DONG.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
IM would crush Surfer one on one. Just look at what he did in DONG.


he was pickin them off one by one though.

^ He was also more than a match for an ALE-enhanced Scott Free.

With ease, though. One of Orion's confrontations with him, Orion admitted he was way out of his league. And I'd say Orion can definitely hang with Surfer.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
IM would crush Surfer one on one. Just look at what he did in DONG.

Yeah, but he was also The Sources personal Harbinger of the Apocalypse at the time. I can't see regular Infinity Man sparring with the Anti Life Equation like he did. (And Scott destroyed the Source Wall with his full potential, which was previously thought impossible..)

Originally posted by cdtm
Yeah, but he was also The Sources personal Harbinger of the Apocalypse at the time. I can't see regular Infinity Man sparring with the Anti Life Equation like he did. (And Scott destroyed the Source Wall with his full potential, which was previously thought impossible..)


kinda agree

Originally posted by cdtm
Yeah, but he was also The Sources personal Harbinger of the Apocalypse at the time. I can't see regular Infinity Man sparring with the Anti Life Equation like he did. (And Scott destroyed the Source Wall with his full potential, which was previously thought impossible..) Classic IM was still far superior to the likes of classic Mantis, pre-crisis Superman, and Orion. Plus he has that pesky deus ex machina ability: the infini-beam.

Generally speaking Infinity Man tends to be about Thanos level, maybe a little lower. He was supposed to be the counter to Darkseid, but of course Darkseid proved capable of taking him out time and time again.

Takion never had a lot of feats, but his series didn't really lend itself to big battles. When he was attacked by anyone conventional, they generally got handled on accident.

Lightray doesn't do great against very physical foes, but he's got raw power feats above those of Red Shift and Firelord, so far as I can tell. He's been pretty thoroughly owned by Kalibak and Orion too, though. He's more of a thinker than a fighter, a strategist to Orion's tactician.

Mr. Miracle has the odd showing of super powers here and there - he's fought Pre Crisis Superman evenly, for instance - but even when he's not getting one of those rare showings I think he could probably keep one of the heralds occupied. His technology makes him pretty formidable, and he's got better combat speed than any of them. Not even Orion could touch him, when it came down to it.

Orion's a match for any of them, and better than most of them. I'd give Orion the edge against classic Surfer, despite his rather abysmal showing in the crossover...I'm still not sure how I feel about Surfer post power up, in part from lack of showings. I know everyone hates to bring it up, but Black Panther DID happen, and comprises a decent percentage of his post power up appearances.

Barda would be a decent match for Nova, I think, but no one else. She's about Wonder Woman level in overall formidability, as I see it. Slightly weaker and less pure martial skill, but more durable and tougher and with an insanely powerful (and versatile) weapon.

It's an interesting enough battle, I'll have think on the outcome. Takion and Infinity Man are above any individual herald, as I see it, but Mr. Miracle and Barda are far below in raw power, and Lightray's lack of durability is going to hurt him...

In the end, heralds take it I think, in a surprisingly good one. Swap in Metron, and the Gods could take it.

Also, for what it's worth, I'm not basing my opinion of Infinity Man on Death of the New Gods. I'm talking about classic Infinity Man/Drax.

Originally posted by Desaad
Generally speaking Infinity Man tends to be about Thanos level, maybe a little lower. He was supposed to be the counter to Darkseid, but of course Darkseid proved capable of taking him out time and time again.

Takion never had a lot of feats, but his series didn't really lend itself to big battles. When he was attacked by anyone conventional, they generally got handled on accident.

Lightray doesn't do great against very physical foes, but he's got raw power feats above those of Red Shift and Firelord, so far as I can tell. He's been pretty thoroughly owned by Kalibak and Orion too, though. He's more of a thinker than a fighter, a strategist to Orion's tactician.

Mr. Miracle has the odd showing of super powers here and there - he's fought Pre Crisis Superman evenly, for instance - but even when he's not getting one of those rare showings I think he could probably keep one of the heralds occupied. His technology makes him pretty formidable, and he's got better combat speed than any of them. Not even Orion could touch him, when it came down to it.

Orion's a match for any of them, and better than most of them. I'd give Orion the edge against classic Surfer, despite his rather abysmal showing in the crossover...I'm still not sure how I feel about Surfer post power up, in part from lack of showings. I know everyone hates to bring it up, but Black Panther DID happen, and comprises a decent percentage of his post power up appearances.

Barda would be a decent match for Nova, I think, but no one else. She's about Wonder Woman level in overall formidability, as I see it. Slightly weaker and less pure martial skill, but more durable and tougher and with an insanely powerful (and versatile) weapon.

It's an interesting enough battle, I'll have think on the outcome. Takion and Infinity Man are above any individual herald, as I see it, but Mr. Miracle and Barda are far below in raw power, and Lightray's lack of durability is going to hurt him...

In the end, heralds take it I think, in a surprisingly good one. Swap in Metron, and the Gods could take it.

i think nova will be more than a decent match for bara.

Nova doesn't have many combat feats, though. She's caused a sun to go--wait for it -- Nova, but I can't recall a fight she has actually one, or even someone she's stalemated.

Barda is at a power disadvantage, but is more skilled and tougher, with a weapon that is almost certainly capable of messing her up.

Originally posted by Desaad
Nova doesn't have many combat feats, though. She's caused a sun to go--wait for it -- Nova, but I can't recall a fight she has actually one, or even someone she's stalemated.

Barda is at a power disadvantage, but is more skilled and tougher, with a weapon that is almost certainly capable of messing her up.


funny thing is, Nova isn't even included in this match... uahahahaha.

Yeah, my original comment was just meant to be a general one.

With orion on team, new gods win

Originally posted by Blackest Knight
With orion on team, new gods win



i would think either IM or Tak would be more of a cause for a win.

Originally posted by Desaad
Nova doesn't have many combat feats, though. She's caused a sun to go--wait for it -- Nova, but I can't recall a fight she has actually one, or even someone she's stalemated.

Barda is at a power disadvantage, but is more skilled and tougher, with a weapon that is almost certainly capable of messing her up. \

So, do you think Nova is a better analogy for Lightray, or Firelord?

The thing about Lightray, is he's pretty much established since the Kirby days as having little combat experience.. Great tactical mind, and very powerful (Claims he can create heat as hot as a couple suns, and he did insta-melt a giant war machine along with casually creating an actual sun or two..), but put him against someone like Kalibak, and he's inevitably get caught and beaten down.

He's pretty good for showing off New Gods durability though. Both Kalibak and Orion being able to shrug off solar level attacks is pretty impressive stuff..

Originally posted by cdtm
\

So, do you think Nova is a better analogy for Lightray, or Firelord?

I think he probably works for both, if we're being honest. Firelord doesn't have a great win/loss record either, though he doesn't have many appearances to draw upon.

If I HAD to, though, just based on temperment I'd say Lightray/Nova is a better comparison. Barda/Firelord would probably be the more likely match up, based on both of them being warriors (Firelord was a member of the Nova Corps, after all) and not being really up to snuff with the more top tier guys of their respective groups.



Right, it's true, he's had his low combat showings. I'd argue, actually, that Lightray is a great STRATEGIST (Orion even refers to him as such in Hunger Dogs), where as Orion is the ultimate tactician. Darkseid tends to be both.

But he's also got his battle feats, like taking it to Takion for a while.

In the end, heralds take it I think, in a surprisingly good one. Swap in Metron, and the Gods could take it.

Metron would be overkill IMO.

This is just plain ludicrous. how does one PIS low showing compromise anything? He has had some extremely good feats post power up and to disregard all of them because of a PIS incident doesnt make an iota of sense.

Originally posted by Naija boy
This is just plain ludicrous. how does one PIS low showing compromise anything? He has had some extremely good feats post power up and to disregard all of them because of a PIS incident doesnt make an iota of sense.


that's it!! he just threw down the gauntlet...

Lobo, for one. DC's Thor, iirc. WW1m. Pre-Crisis, she beat down Supergirl.

Barda is quite a threat. Even those here she'd lose against, she'd only do so after a rough fight that'd give them a fair amount of damage too.

Originally posted by Naija boy
This is just plain ludicrous. how does one PIS low showing compromise anything? He has had some extremely good feats post power up and to disregard all of them because of a PIS incident doesnt make an iota of sense.

I'm not disregarding them all, I'm simply taking the average. "One bad showing" doesn't seem so bad until you take into account the total number of showings he's had in his post Annihilation form. When one does, one realizes it compromises one of his few extended appearances, and has to give it weight.

Or you could just ignore it because you don't like it. But that's not really debating so much as masturbating.

Originally posted by Q99
Lobo, for one. DC's Thor, iirc. WW1m. Pre-Crisis, she beat down Supergirl.

I'm referring to Nova, not Barda.

In regards to Barda, her fight with Lobo had her transformed into a Czarnian, so I don't know how valid that is, and she had a stalemate against Thor, rather than a win.

Also, if we're talking about the same scene, she TKOed Supergirl POST, rather than PRE, Crisis.

But she does have wins. She knocked out Byrne Supes with a single blast from her mega rod, and she defeated Wonder Woman 1 Million. She essentially stalemated Wonder Woman in hand to hand combat, until Wonder Woman used her advantage of flight to win that conflict. She's beat a number of the furies, destroyed a number of GL constructs, defeated a bunch of nameless (but supposedly powerful) Apokolips forces, etc.



No doubt, her tenacity would give her a good shot at some of these, but the fact remains that she has less overall power than most, I think.

Originally posted by Desaad
I'm not disregarding them all, I'm simply taking the average. "One bad showing" doesn't seem so bad until you take into account the total number of showings he's had in his post Annihilation form. When one does, one realizes it compromises one of his few extended appearances, and has to give it weight.

Or you could just ignore it because you don't like it. But that's not really debating so much as masturbating.
Not really... if he is MORE powerful in his current incarnation, that means all his prior showings are still valid as well.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Not really... if he is MORE powerful in his current incarnation, that means all his prior showings are still valid as well.


agree agree

Originally posted by King Kandy
Not really... if he is MORE powerful in his current incarnation, that means all his prior showings are still valid as well.

The nature of his power got changed. If he were more powerful, than his showings would bear that out. I'm unsure that the power up is really being acknowledged, of it did all that it was supposed to do.

Because if he HAS been powered up, then that showing is all the worse, and yet still very staunchly in continuity.

Originally posted by Desaad
I'm not disregarding them all, I'm simply taking the average. "One bad showing" doesn't seem so bad until you take into account the total number of showings he's had in his post Annihilation form. When one does, one realizes it compromises one of his few extended appearances, and has to give it weight.

Or you could just ignore it because you don't like it. But that's not really debating so much as masturbating.

What we take into account on KMC is consistency. He has consistently performed great feats and been portrayed at a given level since his annihilation powerup. That one feat in which surfer is portrayed as a street leveler is really of no consequence since it is entirely contradictory to his other portrayals and established history and hence is PIS and does not apply per forum rules.. It doesnt compromise anything. Frankly ur attempt at "averaging" it out by including a feat which is unusable per forum rules and contradictory to the entire character is quite comical. One extremely low showing (which is PIS anyways) does not mean u can suddenly sell surfer short of the power level he is regularly portrayed at.

Originally posted by Desaad
The nature of his power got changed. If he were more powerful, than his showings would bear that out. I'm unsure that the power up is really being acknowledged, of it did all that it was supposed to do.

Because if he HAS been powered up, then that showing is all the worse, and yet still very staunchly in continuity.

It was confirmed in annhilation that he did get powered up...and he has been regularly operating at high levels since then.

That bad showing while in continuity is an anomaly and clear PIS which invalidates it on the forum.

Either way, Takion & IM make this in favor for the NG's.

Originally posted by Naija boy
What we take into account on KMC is consistency. He has consistently performed great feats and been portrayed at a given level since his annihilation powerup.

No, he hasn't. Because a full 10% of his showings have him getting putting into an armbar by Black Panther, and a lot of the rest dont' have him doing anything that establishes him at a particularly high level.




"Forum rules" are ridiculous and restrictive. And, by the way, counter productive.

Who decides what is PIS and what isn't? It's an excuse to dismiss anything you don't like and keep all the stuff you do. And that's fine when you're cobbling together your own continuity for entertainment purposes - we all do it - but when you're in a debate, EVERYTHING has to be given some weight, because that is the only fair way to create a whole picture. If the number of showings really IS marginal enough to be dismissed as PIS then it won't have a significant effect on a character's average anyway.

Originally posted by Desaad
No, he hasn't. Because a full 10% of his showings have him getting putting into an armbar by Black Panther, and a lot of the rest dont' have him doing anything that establishes him at a particularly high level.




"Forum rules" are ridiculous and restrictive. And, by the way, counter productive.

Who decides what is PIS and what isn't? It's an excuse to dismiss anything you don't like and keep all the stuff you do. And that's fine when you're cobbling together your own continuity for entertainment purposes - we all do it - but when you're in a debate, EVERYTHING has to be given some weight, because that is the only fair way to create a whole picture. If the number of showings really IS marginal enough to be dismissed as PIS then it won't have a significant effect on a character's average anyway.


though "everything" should be at least considered somewhat, that armbar thing does carry very little to no weight.

Originally posted by Desaad
No, he hasn't. Because a full 10% of his showings have him getting putting into an armbar by Black Panther, and a lot of the rest dont' have him doing anything that establishes him at a particularly high level.


Actually yes he has. Since his annihilation upgrade, he has trounced BRB, channeled the crunch,sealed away the oldpower and reconstructed planet skaar, matched thanos power output etc. Ur making the grave error of attempting to mathematically determine his power level by taking the mean of his performances. This gives false results. Let me use a characters lifting ability as an example since it can be numerically gauged fairly accurately. Say that in the vast majority of his comics Supes is portrayed as being capable of carrying at least 10 tons. And then in one small percentage of his comics he is portrayed as being capable of carrying only 10 pounds. On KMC, since the overwhelming majority of his comics clearly indicate he is able to lift 10 tons and upwards, and the portrayal where he is able to lift only 10 kilograms completely contradicts the characters history, then it would be labelled as PIS and hence invalidated. What u r doing however is equivalent to simply adding up the amount of tons he is shown capable of lifting in all his appearances and then dividing it by the total number of showings. U end up getting a number in between the two ranges that does not actually represent how the character is portrayed cuz he is portrayed as either being in the 10ton and above range or in the vastly lower 10 pounds range, never in between. Since annihilation (and even prior to that) surfer has been portrayed in the vast majority of his showings as being of at least herald level power. Meanwhile, that blackpanther showing puts him far far far far below that. By doing what ur doing, wed end up somewhere inbetween as the blackpanther showing would distort and and bringdown his powerlevel to something we have never actually seen him portrayed at in comics.

Consistency in portrayals is therefore key. IF the vast majority of a characters showings portray a character within a given power range, and then a small amount completely contradict that and violate established history then its PIS and not valid.



Actually they arent. The forum gives a good guideline of what constitutes PIS in general an while yes there will be some debate on what constitutes it, a simple adherence to the guidelines provided will result in many clearcut examples of PIS. The forum was designed to give characters a chance to battle it out to the fullest of their abilities, something which doesnt happen always in comics do to PIS and other extenuating circumstances. Moreover when u are in a debate, u respect the rules of the arena in which u are debating. Within this arena that means excluding PIS examples and not using them to attempt to bring down a characters power level. Additionally as i illustrated above if the showing is/are low enough, it will indeed bring down the character to a level which he has never been portrayed at on panel.

that might be game, set, match.....

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
that might be game, set, match.....

For the fight?

Originally posted by Galan007
Feat-wise Surfer can match (or possibly exceed) Takion. And before people start crying about that statement: yes, I understand full well that Takion was the 'avatar of the Source' or whatever - but look at his actual feats, then compare them to Surfer's... That's all I'm saying.



can't agree with this more.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Actually yes he has. Since his annihilation upgrade, he has trounced BRB, channeled the crunch,sealed away the oldpower and reconstructed planet skaar, matched thanos power output etc. Ur making the grave error of attempting to mathematically determine his power level by taking the mean of his performances. This gives false results. Let me use a characters lifting ability as an example since it can be numerically gauged fairly accurately. Say that in the vast majority of his comics Supes is portrayed as being capable of carrying at least 10 tons. And then in one small percentage of his comics he is portrayed as being capable of carrying only 10 pounds. On KMC, since the overwhelming majority of his comics clearly indicate he is able to lift 10 tons and upwards, and the portrayal where he is able to lift only 10 kilograms completely contradicts the characters history, then it would be labelled as PIS and hence invalidated. What u r doing however is equivalent to simply adding up the amount of tons he is shown capable of lifting in all his appearances and then dividing it by the total number of showings. U end up getting a number in between the two ranges that does not actually represent how the character is portrayed cuz he is portrayed as either being in the 10ton and above range or in the vastly lower 10 pounds range, never in between. Since annihilation (and even prior to that) surfer has been portrayed in the vast majority of his showings as being of at least herald level power. Meanwhile, that blackpanther showing puts him far far far far below that. By doing what ur doing, wed end up somewhere inbetween as the blackpanther showing would distort and and bringdown his powerlevel to something we have never actually seen him portrayed at in comics.

Consistency in portrayals is therefore key. IF the vast majority of a characters showings portray a character within a given power range, and then a small amount completely contradict that and violate established history then its PIS and not valid.



Actually they arent. The forum gives a good guideline of what constitutes PIS in general an while yes there will be some debate on what constitutes it, a simple adherence to the guidelines provided will result in many clearcut examples of PIS. The forum was designed to give characters a chance to battle it out to the fullest of their abilities, something which doesnt happen always in comics do to PIS and other extenuating circumstances. Moreover when u are in a debate, u respect the rules of the arena in which u are debating. Within this arena that means excluding PIS examples and not using them to attempt to bring down a characters power level. Additionally as i illustrated above if the showing is/are low enough, it will indeed bring down the character to a level which he has never been portrayed at on panel.

You are spot on my friend... the only thing I kinda don't agree with is the Thanos part... He didn't match Thanos overall output and what he could produce.. he just matched his signature. Which is still impressive considering he's the only one that appeared able to. I just didn't take it as an output thing.