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Leonidas from 300 battles Achilles from Troy.

Round 1 - Both have a spear (identical spears), a shield (identical shields), and a sword (identical swords).
Achilles gets his standard gear (Helmet, Breastplate, Greaves, Vambraces & Sandals) Leonidas gets the cape, and his standard gear (Helmet, Vambraces, Greaves & Sandals).

Round 2 - Almost the same as round 1, but this time, Leonidas gets of his 100 Spartans, and Achilles gets 100 of his Myrmidons. The Spartans get their own shields, as do the Myrmidons.
They start 200 m apart. Both sides can have a maximum of 10 archers, though I am not sure if the Spartans had any archers in the movie. If they didn't, they don't here.

They are rested between the rounds.

Who wins?

(Ironically, the second in command of both Leonidas' & Achilles' armies, is played the same dude )

-Achillles

-Leonidas and his Spartans

Same here.

The duel will actually be a good competitive fight though. The battle between the two armies won't. The Spartans were much superior.

Good match. IMO, Leonidas showed more raw power in his fights. Achilles was faster and had better technique. I believe Achilles would win this fight after a semi-lengthy battle.

-Achillles

-Achilles and his men.


The fight would be short.

Originally posted by xJLxKing


-Achilles and his men.


Except his men were just men and didn't do much of anything, while even the lamest of Spartans was protrayed as a bit super-human.

Achilles won't be able to carry his men.

Originally posted by Robtard
Except his men were just men and didn't do much of anything, while even the lamest of Spartans was a bit super-human. Achilles won't be able to carry his men. Actually the Myrmidons were the strongest and more feared warriors in Greece at their time.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Actually the Myrmidons were the strongest and more feared warriors in Greece at their time.
Great, they're also likely myth.

Going by movie feats, they don't compare to the Spartans of 300.

Brad err Achilles takes the first

Gerard err Leonidas the second

Originally posted by Robtard
Great, they're also likely myth.

Going by movie feats, they don't compare to the Spartans of 300.
Oh and Spartans legend is true? Spartans are descendants of Hercules?

Going by feat they alone challenge the greatest archers in Europe with 50 men. In addition, they beaten Hector and his scout or whatever you call them. I wouldn't be surprised if Achilles himself kills like a dozen easily.

I seriously doubt Achilles can kill a dozen Spartans easily. These are far superior to the Trojans he's accustomed to.

Achilles>Spartans>>>>Myrmidons

Originally posted by Darth Martin
I seriously doubt Achilles can kill a dozen Spartans easily. These are far superior to the Trojans he's accustomed to.
The Trojans had the best army in the east.

Achilles and his 50 soldiers took down the best of Troy in one day.

The Spartans took on the Persians who were weak and scared. They had little armor, hungry and scared.

youre using real world myths and history as proof for a fictional army in a fictional movie that only pays a slight homage to its source material.

no.

Originally posted by Robtard
-Achillles

-Leonidas and his Spartans The Robtard speaks truth. All hail the Robtard.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
youre using real world myths and history as proof for a fictional army in a fictional movie that only pays a slight homage to its source material.

no.
I am using what was stated in the movie.
- Achilles was the greatest warrior
- His Myrmidons were seen as strong warriors
- Hector controlled the greatest army in the east.

It comes down to option and my opinion is that Achilles could kill a hell of a lot of the Spartans by himself.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Oh and Spartans legend is true? Spartans are descendants of Hercules?

Going by feat they alone challenge the greatest archers in Europe with 50 men. In addition, they beaten Hector and his scout or whatever you call them. I wouldn't be surprised if Achilles himself kills like a dozen easily.

The battle of Thermopylae actually happened, granted, it wasn't only 300 Spartans vs the Persians, but it isn't what seems to be just a story that grew into a myth that the Illiad is. This is irrelevant though and it shouldn't be brought up again, as we go by movie feats here.

Again, going by what was shown on screen(not history or myths), Achilles' men didn't do all that much, while the Spartans were nigh super-human. 300 of them stopped thousands of charging men; slammed them back; then killed everyone in that first Persian attack without losing a single man.

The two younger Spartans that had the homosexual-esque thing going on (forget the names), they alone fought and moved similar to Achilles. While Leonidas was a battle tank, he skewered 2-3 guys with one spear throw, hacked off a leg at the thigh with one swipe and did well against that ogre-man.

haermm Ogre man!!!

Originally posted by Robtard
The battle of Thermopylae actually happened, granted, it wasn't only 300 Spartans vs the Persians, but it isn't what seems to be just a story that grew into a myth that the Illiad is. This is irrelevant though and it shouldn't be brought up again, as we go by movie feats here.

Again, going by what was shown on screen(not history or myths), Achilles' men didn't do all that much, while the Spartans were nigh super-human. 300 of them stopped thousands of charging men; slammed them back; then killed everyone in that first Persian attack without losing a single man.

The two younger Spartans that had the homosexual-esque thing going on (forget the names), they alone fought and moved similar to Achilles. While Leonidas was a battle tank, he skewered 2-3 guys with one spear throw, hacked off a leg at the thigh with one swipe and did well against that ogre-man.
I never brought up the Battle of Thermopylae. I had a quiz on that in school, so I know what happened.


Any ways in the movies, more then those two Spartans died. If you look at their fight with the immortals, you can see a lot of the Spartans dying.

Also, the Spartans never fought thousands of Persians. They fought small waves. The only large wave was the Immortals and the Spartans called on the Athenians. Granted, it wasn't many but they played a vital role.

As for the Myrmidons, they did take the beaches of Troy mostly by themselves. By the time the Greek armies reached the beaches, the Victory was already taken by 50 men and Achilles.

As for Achilles, he took down a Giant himself at the Battle for Thessaly (beginning of the movie). Maybe he wasn't as strong as the one in 300, but Achilles had no problem going through him. He threw a spear that went through the skull of his opponent half-way through. He took down like a dozen of Trojans easily.
TOh5U4metlA

Look at the fight. Compare it to what Leonidas did or any of the other Spartans. It can't compare. Achilles fought people who knew how to fire an arrow while their comrades fought up front. They knew how to surround and attack. The only scene that can compare is the one with Astinos & Stelios.

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
Good match. IMO, Leonidas showed more raw power in his fights. Achilles was faster and had better technique. I believe Achilles would win this fight after a semi-lengthy battle.

Not entirely sure if Leonidas has more strength than Achilles. Achilles cut through a statue of Apollo as if it were made of butter.

He's faster than Leonidas though, and arguably more skilled. He can throw a spear far better than Leonidas can.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
I seriously doubt Achilles can kill a dozen Spartans easily. These are far superior to the Trojans he's accustomed to.

With the help of his army? He'd easily do so and more.

Originally posted by xJLxKing


As for the Myrmidons, they did take the beaches of Troy mostly by themselves. By the time the Greek armies reached the beaches, the Victory was already taken by 50 men and Achilles.



No, not 50. Lesser than 50. A number of them were killed/incapacitated while they were landing on the beach. Then there's Patrocles who was stuck guarding the ship.

The Myrmidons took care of the first wave by themselves, then had help from Ajax and his soldiers for the second wave.

As for the Persian waves the Spartans fought, some were in the hundreds at least.

that video really doesnt help your case any... the only people doing any real ass kicking was achilles himself... and they used a phalanx... which is something the spartans excelled at.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
that video really doesnt help your case any... the only people doing any real ass kicking was achilles himself... and they used a phalanx... which is something the spartans excelled at. Actually, neither of them really did a Phalanx.

A Phalanx is
http://www.livius.org/a/1/greece/phalanx.jpg


What the Spartans did was use short spears and they only had like one spear sticking out in front of them. Also, the Greeks used that shield against archers, while the Spartans used it against people who can't bother to use mix up bows with swords

Achilles didn't kill all the soldiers at the beach. He was just the tip of the spear. They followed and killed him

First battle of 300, there were thousands of Persians, when the camera pans out, you see them. This was illustrated earlier by the ground shaking and Leonidas' captain thinking it was an earthquake, when it was the thousands of Persians marching. Unless you think a few hundred men can make the ground shake like that?

So no, the Spartans didn't just fight "small waves", first battle was thousands; they killed all without losing a man. Spartans are superior save to Achilles himself, going by the movie.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Actually, neither of them really did a Phalanx.

A Phalanx is
http://www.livius.org/a/1/greece/phalanx.jpg


What the Spartans did was use short spears and they only had like one spear sticking out in front of them. Also, the Greeks used that shield against archers, while the Spartans used it against people who can't bother to use mix up bows with swords

Achilles didn't kill all the soldiers at the beach. He was just the tip of the spear. They followed and killed him

indeed my mistake

they sucked though.

Originally posted by Robtard
First battle of 300, there were thousands of Persians, when the camera pans out, you see them. This was illustrated earlier by the ground shaking and Leonidas' captain thinking it was an earthquake, when it was the thousands of Persians marching. Unless you think a few hundred men can make the ground shake like that?

So no, the Spartans didn't just fight "small waves", first battle was thousands; they killed all without losing a man. Spartans are superior save to Achilles himself, going by the movie.
In the first battle, it wasn't the Persians charging, or anything close to it. It was as one of the Spartans said, "Battle Formations". Did all the Persians attack on that day? No, it was small waves. This is why the fight was done quickly.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
indeed my mistake

they sucked though.
I guess 51 men taking the beaches of Troy nearly by themselves is not a high feat.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
In the first battle, it wasn't the Persians charging, or anything close to it. It was as one of the Spartans said, "Battle Formations". Did all the Persians attack on that day? No, it was small waves. This is why the fight was done quickly.

Maybe you should watch the movie again? Persians did attack/charge that day and I never said it was the entire Persian army, which numbered hundreds of thousands, I said "thousands attacked them in that first battle."

They're talking, the ground starts shaking to the point small rocks start jumping about, Captain says "earthquake?", Leionidas responds "battle formations", IE the Persians are attacking us and in earthshaking numbers. You see the Persians in CGI from the long angle of the camera.

Really, you're arguing against what is shown in the movie; it's dumb of you.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
I guess 51 men taking the beaches of Troy nearly by themselves is not a high feat.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix


No, not 50. Lesser than 50. A number of them were killed/incapacitated while they were landing on the beach. Then there's Patrocles who was stuck guarding the ship.

The Myrmidons took care of the first wave by themselves, then had help from Ajax and his soldiers for the second wave.

As for the Persian waves the Spartans fought, some were in the hundreds at least.

Originally posted by Robtard
Maybe you should watch the movie again? Persians did attack that day and I never said it was the entire Persian army, which numbered hundreds of thousands, I said "thousands attacked them on that first battle."

They're talking, the ground starts shaking to the point small rocks start jumping about, Captain says "earthquake?", Leionidas responds "battle formations", IE the Persians are attacking us and in earthshaking numbers. You the Persians in CGI from the long angle of the camera. They all were killed, Spartans all lived.

Really, you're arguing against what is shown in the movie; it's dumb of you.
I am not arguing what was shown in the movie, I am arguing how you are representing it. I never said hundreds Persians marched, but I don't think it was above 2 thousand. Either way, the Persians were unskilled, they were peasants, slaves, and most of all, thirsty.
You also said that the ground was shaking because of the marching, but it was battle formations.

As for the fight, only the Greeks have archers so, that's a huge advantage.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
I am not arguing what was shown in the movie, I am arguing how you are representing it. I never said hundreds Persians marched, but I don't think it was above 2 thousand. Either way, the Persians were unskilled, they were peasants, slaves, and most of all, thirsty.
You also said that the ground was shaking because of the marching, but it was battle formations.

As for the fight, only the Greeks have archers so, that's a huge advantage.

You said the Spartans only faced "small waves", when clearly in the first battle it was a massive army, which they stopped, pushed back and then slaugthered, without losing a man. It was aslo suggested that the Spartans killed all the Immortals too, the ones that were "10,000 strong."

You're arguing that they weren't marching, but "battle formations" instead, what exactly does that mean and why does it matter? Point of showing the ground shake, was to illustrate how many Persians the Spartans were about to face; there were thousands in that first battle. Ask yourself, how many men would it take to make the ground shake?

The "Greeks" would have up to ten archers as per the OP, though I don't recall the Myrmidons having archers either. Either way, the Spartans faced thousands upon thousands of arrows without losing a single man, 10 archers won't be a problem; they'll just get skewered by a thrown spear, as shown, the Spartans can hit a man from an extremely long distance.

Based on movie scenes and the difficulty presented by the opposition demonstrated on screen, Achilles and Myrmidons would beat Leonidas' Spartans given the same number of soldiers for each group.

The Myrmidons' charge on the Trojan beach was suicide, but they pulled it off (with critical aid from Ajax' troop of course). I thought that was more superhuman than anything the Spartans did on screen in 300.

Also it is clear that the Trojans were shown to be more competent than the Persians, Persian monsters notwithstanding. For instance the Myrmidons didn't have ample time to erect a proper defensive barricade when they were landing on the beach and the Trojans picked a fair few Greeks off, like good soldiers would.

By contrast the Persians just seemed to get steam rolled by basic attacks, flying over Spartan shields and skewerening themselves on Spartan spears. Achilles had to pull off some serious martial arts and even what looked like precognition in one instance (lol), to get by the temple guard, Leonidas didn't need anywhere near that much skill to dispatch Persians.

Originally posted by Robtard
You said the Spartans only faced "small waves", when clearly in the first battle it was a massive army, which they stopped, pushed back and then slaugthered, without losing a man. It was aslo suggested that the Spartans killed all the Immortals too, the ones that were "10,000 strong."

You're arguing that they weren't marching, but "battle formations" instead, what exactly does that mean and why does it matter? Point of showing the ground shake, was to illustrate how many Persians the Spartans were about to face; there were thousands in that first battle. Ask yourself, how many men would it take to make the ground shake?

The "Greeks" would have up to ten archers as per the OP, though I don't recall the Myrmidons having archers either. Either way, the Spartans faced thousands upon thousands of arrows without losing a single man, 10 archers won't be a problem; they'll just get skewered by a thrown spear, as shown, the Spartans can hit a man from an extremely long distance.
10,000 is a small wave compared to the total of soldiers they really had. Also, the fight with the immortals ended quickly, I am pretty sure they retreated.


10,000 soldiers can't make the ground shake. The entire Persian army did though. The Spartans didn't fight the entire Persian army. They fought small waves of the entire army. Just look at how little soldiers they sent as Cavalry, or other stuff. Why? Because the Persians wont to stop them quickly.

The Myrmidons did use archer. If you look at their first fight in the beach, some used archers while being in shield formation.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Actually, neither of them really did a Phalanx.

A Phalanx is
http://www.livius.org/a/1/greece/phalanx.jpg


Shows ya how much Frank Miller did'nt give a shit about the facts.

He was into the awesomeness

Originally posted by xJLxKing
10,000 is a small wave compared to the total of soldiers they really had. Also, the fight with the immortals ended quickly, I am pretty sure they retreated.


10,000 soldiers can't make the ground shake. The entire Persian army did though. The Spartans didn't fight the entire Persian army. They fought small waves of the entire army. Just look at how little soldiers they sent as Cavalry, or other stuff. Why? Because the Persians wont to stop them quickly.

The Myrmidons did use archer. If you look at their first fight in the beach, some used archers while being in shield formation.

WTF, I said they fought thousands, you said "no, they only fought small waves, the only large wave was the Immortals"; now you're saying 10k is the small wave? Make up your mind, dude.

10k didn't make the ground shake, as that was the Immortals. The ground shook in the first battle, when they fought the regular foot soldiers, which would have been more than 10k, as the ground did shake.

Okay, like I said, the Myrmidons have 10 archers here. The Spartans faced thousands and thousands of archers; they didn't lose a man.

Originally posted by Robtard
WTF, I said they fought thousands, you said "no, they only fought small waves, the only large wave was the Immortals"; now you're saying 10k is the small wave? Make up your mind, dude.

10k didn't make the ground shake, as that was the Immortals. The ground shook in the first battle, when they fought the regular foot soldiers, which would have been more than 10k, as the ground did shake.

Okay, like I said, the Myrmidons have 10 archers here. The Spartans faced thousands and thousands of archers; they didn't lose a man.
Again, you are misrepresenting what happened in the movie.

When Leonidas said Battle Formation, there was thousand and thousands of soldier in the back ground who were making up formations. That is what made the ground shake. Denying that is ignoring what happened. If you actually think a few thousand soldiers can shake the ground then there is no need to debate this any longer


10,000 compared to what the entire Persian army was at that time is considered small in my books. Which is why I said small waves

The Spartans never fought archer + soldiers. They fought Peasants who had on bad clothing, some with no shield, and most with no experience, and techniques to win. The Myrmidons are the best Greeks in "their" time. They know how to use efficient techniques, they have good equipment and the best leader.


Remember in 300, the Spartans barely fought anyone strong (except immortals and the ogre-man). They never fought someone that had archers to back them up. What did they have? They had archers blindly shoot at the Spartans from miles away. Obviously the hawk shield will help in that situations.


Most of all, the Spartans even explained that hey reason they were winning is because of their "formation". Strength had a part to play, but it was Formation and narrow passage that got them the victory

Here, this is contradictory with what you're saying now:

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Also, the Spartans never fought thousands of Persians. They fought small waves. The only large wave was the Immortals and the Spartans called on the Athenians. Granted, it wasn't many but they played a vital role.

Like I said, thousands of men, in that first battle,the persian column stretches all the way back and that is what made the ground shake, thousands and thousands of men, marching towards the Spartans in the first battle.

Watch for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnxlhajOolw&feature=player_embedded


Anyhow, Spartans showed greater, they killed more, they killed monsters, they killed bombadiers, gigantic war elephants, a battle rhino, Zulus; they were protrayed as nigh super-human, while only Achilles of the Myrmidons was shown to be as such.

Those 10 archers won't mean shit, once the two lines close and clash into each other (which will be fast), the archers won't be able to fire or risk killing there own men. There's also only 10 of them.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Not entirely sure if Leonidas has more strength than Achilles. Achilles cut through a statue of Apollo as if it were made of butter.

He's faster than Leonidas though, and arguably more skilled. He can throw a spear far better than Leonidas can.

With the help of his army? He'd easily do so and more.

Achilles>Leonidas overall; period. He's faster, stronger, and a much more skilled fighter against groups and in solo dueling as well. Leonidas probably has more experience. I doubt Achilles would have had much struggle against the Persian Troll that Leonidas fought.

The Myrmidons were skilled as a group, granted. But they are nothing compared to the Spartans. Every Spartan seemed to be in peak capacity human shape, inordinarily skilled in group combat.

5.Achilles
4.Spartans
3.
2.
1.Myrmidons

That's how I'd classify the power structure of the combatants here.

Leonidas is raw power and can take more hits. But Achilles is half god not to mention he is fast and agile.
So the battle would go Leonidas dominates in the beginning possible cutting Achilles in the arm then Achilles dodges a hit and finally lands a blow so Achilles dodges and counters multiple times and leonidas after a had and long battle would get tired and achilles would win at the last second.

Achilles rapes Leonidas.

Achilles would win. He was an unstoppable murder machine with superhuman abilities. Even if Leonidas knew his ONE weakness, Achilles outclasses him.

I would Achillies in the first

Spartans in the second.

The Spartans were hardcore. They were deadly, fast, skilled, and took on all kinds of things. They killed elephants dang it. And Rhino with a super accurate spear throw to the eye.

As for the Myrmidons, they were good but not compared to what the Spartans went through. Their best feat was taking the beach but it wasn't against an army. It was against a handful of soldiers and archers that were still preparing fortifications while the main army was prepping for battle in the city.

Only when Hector showed up did they seem to go up against any sizable force(Which got split up because Ajaz had landed), and by then they had taken the temple and launched an ambush to take Hector's forces when they entered. The force Hector brought wasn't anything close to numbers the Spartans steamrolled through as well.

Yeah I agree.

1. Achilles.

2. Spartans.

Achilles wins.

Yeah Achilles wins and for the last time he was not a god in the Pitt film.

Originally posted by playa1258
Yeah Achilles wins and for the last time he was not a god in the Pitt film. who said he was a god ?

Originally posted by Lunacyde
Achilles would win. He was an unstoppable murder machine with superhuman abilities. Even if Leonidas knew his ONE weakness, Achilles outclasses him.

What weakness, being *****-sniped by Paris' o-kay archery skills?

Anyways, Wolfgang's Achilles was up there with the best human fighters in cinematic history...though Riddick and Ozymandias surpass him.

As far as spear throw I don't think Riddick could do better, Ozymandias might could. Achilles was one of the few 1337 perfectly honed killing machines in cinema.

Originally posted by demigodking
Leonidas is raw power and can take more hits. But Achilles is half god not to mention he is fast and agile.
So the battle would go Leonidas dominates in the beginning possible cutting Achilles in the arm then Achilles dodges a hit and finally lands a blow so Achilles dodges and counters multiple times and leonidas after a had and long battle would get tired and achilles would win at the last second.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Achilles wins. You sack of wine.

Originally posted by Silent Master
He said half god.

I'm aware of that, however it was obviously close enough for playa1258...hence his comment.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I'm aware of that, however it was obviously close enough for playa1258...hence his comment. I disputed someone said he was a god not a half god. Get it together.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I disputed someone said he was a god not a half god. Get it together.

I explained what was the likely cause of playa1258's statement, can you please stop derailing the thread?

Originally posted by Silent Master
I explained what was the likely cause of playa1258's statement, can you please stop derailing the thread? You seem to think a god and a half god mean the same thing. You're wrong. Just move on and don't drag it on any further.

Achilles kills Leonidas without much trouble. In fact, I having trouble finding any (unenhanced) sword and sandals movie character that can take on Achilles.

As for a fight with their men, I'm undecided. The Spartans definitely had better moves, showed amazing coordination, and their skills were definitely more showcased in their movie. So at first glance I'd say Spartans win.

Then again, I have to consider that the Spartans did have the cover of the pass to work in their favor as they were able to bottleneck the much larger persian army into a tight little space where numbers don't mean much. They also had the advantage of home field and they had ample time to fortify their positions.

The Myrmidons on the other hand had no such advantage. They charged a much bigger army on open ground, with archers raining unhindered down on them. They charged uphill through a fortified beach. In short, they had not even a single advantage and yet they still won. The Spartans had 1 disadvantage which was their smaller number. But everything else was to their advantage.

So yeah, I'm undecided on the army fight. Do you pick the group with the better-looking screen feats or the one with the better accomplishments?

The Myrmidons were portrayed as very average fighters. Not great, not bad. Just OK. The drawback of so little screen time. The Spartans were portrayed as super soldiers-- far superior. But put Achilles in there and it becomes much more even.

His only problem is getting through their shields. Once he does, he'd cut them to pieces. Maybe they should have invested in armor after all. But Leonidas alone? Not even close.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I disputed someone said he was a god not a half god. Get it together.

If Zeus hadn't drawn back his dpecker from Achilles' mom, Achilles would have been full-God, stronger than Zeus and all the Titans before, the strongest in the Mythos according to hype. You know how Zeus is, he must have been pretty damn scared not to procreate Achilles.

Originally posted by quanchi112
who said he was a god ?

Well people think that he was just like the Illiad in the film and could only be hurt in his heel. He could be conventionally killed.

The film took out the mythical angle pretty much.

Originally posted by Dolos
If Zeus hadn't drawn back his dpecker from Achilles' mom, Achilles would have been full-God, stronger than Zeus and all the Titans before, the strongest in the Mythos according to hype. You know how Zeus is, he must have been pretty damn scared not to procreate Achilles. This has got to be a joke post.

Originally posted by playa1258
Well people think that he was just like the Illiad in the film and could only be hurt in his heel. He could be conventionally killed. Point me in the direction of these vagabonds.

Why bump the thread? Looked to me we all reached a consensus.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Why bump the thread? A fragile ego.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
A fragile ego. Based on ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Based on ? Based on... you?

I'm going with Achilles...better feats.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Based on... you?

Hahahaa. Good stuff.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Based on... you? You've made your choice. Now live with the consequences.

achilles and his Myrmidons win this.

achilles vs leonidas is a joke achilles will murder him.

speed: achilles has amazing fighting speed he fought off 3 trojan soldiers at the same time, while leonidas had trouble with that giant slow ogre, leonidas wasnt that fast at all he only fought off 1 by 1 persian soldiers and his moves werent quick at all.

strength: what did leonidas do as far as strength aside of looking more buff? he cut limbs like any man with a sword can do, and shield bash a persian soldier and knocks him down, but thats it isnt it? now lets check achilles, cutt down the head of apollo statue like butter, when he clash shields with hector he sends hector almost flying backwards, he hits hectors shield with the tip of his sword and sends hector again backwards, do you know how much strength you need to do such thing? the tip of your sword vs a shield? and when achilles invades the beach he shield bash a trojan warrior sending him flying on a spike.... , i think achilles is stronger.

skills: no contest, achilles used amazing tactics and techniques, leonidas seems like a hack and slash brute compared to achilles, achilles hits with swift, fast, technical hits, leonidas hits with brute force sword strikes.
achilles fought 20 man at the beach while they were comming from all directions at the same time at him, in the extended version he fights extra 10 soldiers which means 30 people attacking him from all angles.
leonidas fought only persian soldiers in front of him 1 by 1 because of that neckbottle tactic, but as soon as the persians closed on leonidas and his 300 soldiers from all directions they all fell like bugs.

overall achilles and the Myrmidons will dominate them, while i do believe that the Myrmidons and spartans are more or less equel, i still believe achilles is too much of a factor here.
remember that the Myrmidons took over a whole beach full of trojan soldiers from all directions like in a real battle, the spartans were not surrounded and basically fought only in 1 direction as all their enemies came wave after wave in front of them, there wasnt even room for many persians to attack them they could only come in small amounts of waves, its like you and 10 friends standing in a room and fighting off 100 people, all the 100 people cant fight you because only 5 at a time can squeeze into that room until you beat them and then more come, but you never find yourself fighting off more than 5 people, however as soon as the persians surrounded the spartans it was game over very quickly for them, at the end of you see how the persian soldiers killed off the spartans when the spartans had to fight persians comming from all directions.

now i think spartans and Myrmidons are somewhat of equels, however as the fights starts and they all fight each other while achilles running around and killing them off at the same time... spartans cant win, achilles is too much backed by the Myrmidons.
based on achilles owning soldiers from all directions and even 3 at the same time, while spartans getting killed as soon as they are surrounded by persians? i say achilles>>>>>>> spartans.

also trojan soldiers are much more skilled than the persian soldiers, trojan soldiers trained since birth to fight as in most greece at that time, the greeks at that time were the most advanced as far as fighting methods, techniques and skills, and achilles and his Myrmidons took over a whole beach of those.

the persians are mostly barbaric, they were dominating at their time just because of numbers they didnt have high training at all.
as soon as persians surrounded the spartans and basically made them fight like the Myrmidons fought the trojans, the spartans quickly fell while the Myrmidons actually won, so a case can be made for the Myrmidons being even superior to spartans.

Originally posted by red sabre
leonidas wasnt that fast at all he only fought off 1 by 1 persian soldiers and his moves werent quick at all...

strength: what did leonidas do as far as strength aside of looking more buff? he cut limbs like any man with a sword can do, and shield bash a persian soldier and knocks him down, but thats it isnt it? Yeah, cuz stopping dead in their tracks several men running at you with your spear point and sending one flying backwards with your giant bronze shield, all in a matter of seconds, is just sooooo weak and slow. Do you have some sort of hardon for Brad Pitt or something, cuz you are biased beyond being reasonable or fair. Achilles showed no signs of greater strength than the Spartans---gold is a very soft metal, a sharp bronze sword would cut right through it. And you can't go dismissing Leonidas' shield bashing and stabbing feats of strength and then turnaround and say the same techniques work for Achilles. Be fair or shut up.


Those Trojan soldiers did nothing impressive onscreen. And neither did the Myrmidons or Persian grunts. The Trojan heroes, the Spartans, and the Immortals are the only guys from either of these movies that are a worth damn, combat-wise. When Myrmidons face a small platoon of archers, many get hit. When Spartans face enough arrows to blot out the sun, they don't suffer a scratch. I'll put my money on the massive warriors with giant bronze shields, unmatched discipline, overwhelming strength, and the ability to actually do something worth a damn onscreen. Achilles>Leonidas, sure. He's still very strong and very fast. But the Spartans>>>>>>>>>>the Greeks, Myrmidons, and Trojans 10 times out of 10.


Also, I don't know what any of this:

Originally posted by red sabre
also trojan soldiers are much more skilled than the persian soldiers, trojan soldiers trained since birth to fight as in most greece at that time, the greeks at that time were the most advanced as far as fighting methods, techniques and skills, and achilles and his Myrmidons took over a whole beach of those.

the persians are mostly barbaric, they were dominating at their time just because of numbers they didnt have high training at all.
as soon as persians surrounded the spartans and basically made them fight like the Myrmidons fought the trojans, the spartans quickly fell while the Myrmidons actually won, so a case can be made for the Myrmidons being even superior to spartans.

has to do with absolutely anything in these films.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah, cuz stopping dead in their tracks several men running at you with your spear point and sending one flying backwards with your giant bronze shield, all in a matter of seconds, is just sooooo weak and slow. Do you have some sort of hardon for Brad Pitt or something, cuz you are biased beyond being reasonable or fair. Achilles showed no signs of greater strength than the Spartans---gold is a very soft metal, a sharp bronze sword would cut right through it. And you can't go dismissing Leonidas' shield bashing and stabbing feats of strength and then turnaround and say the same techniques work for Achilles. Be fair or shut up.


Those Trojan soldiers did nothing impressive onscreen. And neither did the Myrmidons or Persian grunts. The Trojan heroes, the Spartans, and the Immortals are the only guys from either of these movies that are a worth damn, combat-wise. When Myrmidons face a small platoon of archers, many get hit. When Spartans face enough arrows to blot out the sun, they don't suffer a scratch. I'll put my money on the massive warriors with giant bronze shields, unmatched discipline, overwhelming strength, and the ability to actually do something worth a damn onscreen. Achilles>Leonidas, sure. He's still very strong and very fast. But the Spartans>>>>>>>>>>the Greeks, Myrmidons, and Trojans 10 times out of 10.


Also, I don't know what any of this:



has to do with absolutely anything in these films.

leonidas didnt stop several man with his spear, one man jumps on him and leonidas impale that man, then leonidas throw his spear and hits 2 guys, one of them being taken down from a direct hit, other one falls down because he was injured by the spear as it was flying towards the other guy, however this is not a case of 2 man standing one behind the other and leonidas knocks them both down.

achilles threw a spear from much longer distance with enough force to send the horseman flying off his horse, thats more impressive than what leonidas did.

leonidas sent a guy flying with his shield, achilles while charging the beach sent a man flying with his shield as well.

i never said leonidas is weak, i just said achilles is stronger, i never said leonidas is slow i said he is slow compared to achilles which is a fact as far as speed.

achilles cut thru a golden statue of apollo with a swing, care to try it? with 1 swing beheading that kind of golden statue is impossible to a man.

i pointed out the fact achilles hits hector with the edge of his sword into hectors shield and sends hector backwards, that takes a lot of strength to do because at this point hector had the advantage of mass per square, and yet achilles easily over power him and sends him backwards with something like that? achilles strength clearly is above human.

and what did the persians do onscreen aside of being owned by the aprtans until they surrounded them? the trojans are well known fighters that train since birth, are you going to dismiss history just because it doesnt suit you? the persians are just barbarics while trojans are well trained soldiers, and what did we get? Myrmidons beating up those well trained soldiers while the spartans slaughtered by the less skilled barbaric persians.

the reason why Myrmidons got hit by the arrows and spartans defended was because the Myrmidons were shot while they were jumping off their boats and couldnt defend themselves, another reason is that while reaching the shore the Myrmidons were separated and could defend themselves as a group only when they gathered around and formed a tactic, the spartans however were not separated and were next to each other so when the arrows were shot at them all they had to do is raise their shield and they basically formed the same tactic by defending each other.

as i stated before, the Myrmidons defeated trojans comming at them from all directions in an open battlefield, spartans were able to win only when they had the bottleneck tactic advantage, when they got surrounded they got slaughtered without giving a very serious fight, even with the bottleneck tactic spartans were slaughtered by immortals, the Myrmidons not only gave good fight in an open field but also won.

achilles is too much of a factor here, this guy defeated 30 man coming at him on the beach from all sides, he even defeated 3 guys coming at him at the same time, the spartans got killed once they were surrounded, nuff said.

Originally posted by Robtard
-Achillles

-Leonidas and his Spartans

This^^^^^

Spartans have way more feats the then the Myrmidons, 300 Spartans vs 40-50 Myrmidons get stomps, Achilles is the last one standing and prolly lets Leonidas go like he did Hector.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
I am using what was stated in the movie.
- Achilles was the greatest warrior
- His Myrmidons were seen as strong warriors
- Hector controlled the greatest army in the east.

It comes down to option and my opinion is that Achilles could kill a hell of a lot of the Spartans by himself.

Individual Spartans did a great job at killing hundreds of people at a time. Achilles did the same thing in the battle of troy and his other battles. He's invulnerable everywhere but his heel.

Originally posted by red sabre


achilles is too much of a factor here, this guy defeated 30 man coming at him on the beach from all sides, he even defeated 3 guys coming at him at the same time, the spartans got killed once they were surrounded, nuff said.

Massive downplay.

By the time they were surrounded (due to betrayal), they were down to around 20 men. This was after an army starting with just 300 men had killed thousands upon thousands after days of fighting. The Immortals numbered 10,000 alone, "nuff said" indeed.

Spartans > Myrmidons; it's not even close.

Originally posted by Robtard
Massive downplay.

By the time they were surrounded (due to betrayal), they were down to around 20 men. This was after an army starting with just 300 men had killed thousands upon thousands after days of fighting. The Immortals numbered 10,000 alone, "nuff said" indeed.

Spartans > Myrmidons; it's not even close.

Yes Spartans would be a tough challenge but Myrmidons from Illiad are very fierce warriors.

So lets say fair fight 300 spartans plus Leonidas and 300 Myrmidons with Achilles.

I think it would end down to Leonidas and Achilles and Achilles would win.

U?

Achilles beats Leonidas. Nuff said.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Achilles beats Leonidas. Nuff said.

Agreed, do you think he could take out the rest of the 300 on his own after defeating the king?

Originally posted by Supra
Agreed, do you think he could take out the rest of the 300 on his own after defeating the king? Are you nuts ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Are you nuts ?

No but Achilles is

Originally posted by Supra
Spartans have way more feats the then the Myrmidons, 300 Spartans vs 40-50 Myrmidons get stomps, Achilles is the last one standing and prolly lets Leonidas go like he did Hector.

what feats? spartans got slaughtered once they were in a real battle situation when the enemy surrounded them, the Myrmidons took over a beach in a real battle situation with trojans comming at them from all directions, trojans are real trained soldiers unlike the persians.
only army trained in the persian empire were the immortals and they slaughtered some spartans when it was a neckbottle situation, in a real fight from all directions they would probably beat the spartans.

Myrmidons showed more battle abilities, the reason spartans seem to look like the better ones was because they were portrayed as more vicious, stronger and more brutal fighters, i would say they were physically stronger than the Myrmidons no doubt, however as far as battle achievements again they got slaughtered preety quickly once they got surrounded.

Originally posted by Supra
Individual Spartans did a great job at killing hundreds of people at a time. Achilles did the same thing in the battle of troy and his other battles. He's invulnerable everywhere but his heel.

show me an individual spartan killing hundreds of people at a time.
the strength in spartans is their tactics which require them to be combined and together, as soon as you separate a spartan from his fellows, individually he isnt that great at all and gets dispatched quickly like we saw vs the persians.

Originally posted by Supra
No but Achilles is What did he do that proved he was nuts ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
What did he do that proved he was nuts ?

That was a joke

Originally posted by Robtard
Massive downplay.

By the time they were surrounded (due to betrayal), they were down to around 20 men. This was after an army starting with just 300 men had killed thousands upon thousands after days of fighting. The Immortals numbered 10,000 alone, "nuff said" indeed.

Spartans > Myrmidons; it's not even close.

show me a proof they killed thousands upon thousands man, its only your speculation based on your biased opinion, probably they owned couple hundreds but lets not get crazy with the numbers.

how did they get down to 20? you wana tell me 278 died in the battles where they had the advantage all along? really? did the movie state they were down to 20? did you just count?

the immortals number is 10,000? where? did they kill all the immortals? i dont recall them killing the entire immortals army... where do you get those numbers from? i dont recall numbers being stated , most of those numbers are just made by you and make it sound kinda stupid.

as i said already the spartans got slaughtered once the battle was a real battle and not the way the planed it to be in the neckbottle position which they are covering each other with shields and spears, once their tactic is broken they get slaughtered.
Myrmidons conquered the beach in a real fight vs the trojans who are much more trained than the barbaric persians, only unit that is skilled in the persian army are the immortals and we saw how they slaughtered spartans even while in neckbottle situation.
Myrmidons are more impressive than spartans.

Originally posted by red sabre
show me an individual spartan killing hundreds of people at a time.
the strength in spartans is their tactics which require them to be combined and together, as soon as you separate a spartan from his fellows, individually he isnt that great at all and gets dispatched quickly like we saw vs the persians.

OK well do the math, 300 Spartans killed how man persions?

Estimated casualties for the battle:

Greeks
-300 Spartans
-700 Thespians
-1,400 Greek allies in total

Persians
-20,000 (Modern estimate)
-20,000 (Herodotus' estimate)
-80,000 (Ctesias' estimate)

Considering that the Spartans had allies who helped, we can't give them total credit for all ~20,000 of those inflicted casualties, but more likely than not, a very significant percentile were Spartan kills/wounds.
Source(s):http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae

Originally posted by Supra
No but Achilles is

as much as achilles is amazing fighter indeed he cant take 300 spartans on his own.
lets not forget hector gave him a fight and even was able to scratch his armor.
hector is the best fighter troja had to offer and get mad props no doubt, however achilles isnt untouchable and it took him some time to kill hector, vs 300 spartans achilles cant win.

Originally posted by red sabre
show me a proof they killed thousands upon thousands man, its only your speculation based on your biased opinion, probably they owned couple hundreds but lets not get crazy with the numbers.

how did they get down to 20? you wana tell me 278 died in the battles where they had the advantage all along? really? did the movie state they were down to 20? did you just count?

the immortals number is 10,000? where? did they kill all the immortals? i dont recall them killing the entire immortals army... where do you get those numbers from? i dont recall numbers being stated , most of those numbers are just made by you and make it sound kinda stupid.

as i said already the spartans got slaughtered once the battle was a real battle and not the way the planed it to be in the neckbottle position which they are covering each other with shields and spears, once their tactic is broken they get slaughtered.
Myrmidons conquered the beach in a real fight vs the trojans who are much more trained than the barbaric persians, only unit that is skilled in the persian army are the immortals and we saw how they slaughtered spartans even while in neckbottle situation.
Myrmidons are more impressive than spartans.

You make a great debate for the Myrmidons and there fighting skill.

Originally posted by Supra
OK well do the math, 300 Spartans killed how man persions?

Estimated casualties for the battle:

Greeks
-300 Spartans
-700 Thespians
-1,400 Greek allies in total

Persians
-20,000 (Modern estimate)
-20,000 (Herodotus' estimate)
-80,000 (Ctesias' estimate)

Considering that the Spartans had allies who helped, we can't give them total credit for all ~20,000 of those inflicted casualties, but more likely than not, a very significant percentile were Spartan kills/wounds.
Source(s):http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae

we are talking about the movies, show me the movie showing any kind of figures of how much persians got killed by only the 300 spartans.

Originally posted by red sabre
as much as achilles is amazing fighter indeed he cant take 300 spartans on his own.
lets not forget hector gave him a fight and even was able to scratch his armor.
hector is the best fighter troja had to offer and get mad props no doubt, however achilles isnt untouchable and it took him some time to kill hector, vs 300 spartans achilles cant win.

Fair enough, he would lose.

What would happen to Achilles is he was slashed by a sword or run through by a spear?

Originally posted by red sabre
we are talking about the movies, show me the movie showing any kind of figures of how much persians got killed by only the 300 spartans.

Well I dont know that exact number. Although when Xerxes unleashed the immortals tha's when spartans started to die.

Originally posted by Supra
Fair enough, he would lose.

What would happen to Achilles is he was slashed by a sword or run through by a spear?

well his armor is very hard we saw how a cut from hector only left a mark on his armor, and given that its freakin demi god achilles i am sure even with wounds he would still be fighting.

Originally posted by red sabre
well his armor is very hard we saw how a cut from hector only left a mark on his armor, and given that its freakin demi god achilles i am sure even with wounds he would still be fighting.

Demi gods in mythology are a little different then the demi gods in comic book. Different writers from different era's. I'm still curious as to know if he was hit with an arrow or cut with a sword would he deflect it and shrug it off and keep fighting or would it hurt him. The cut by hector is not really a good example of him getting sliced imo because it didn't even do through the armor and Achilles sorta jumped back to avoid it.

Originally posted by Supra
Demi gods in mythology are a little different then the demi gods in comic book. Different writers from different era's. I'm still curious as to know if he was hit with an arrow or cut with a sword would he deflect it and shrug it off and keep fighting or would it hurt him. The cut by hector is not really a good example of him getting sliced imo because it didn't even do through the armor and Achilles sorta jumped back to avoid it.

well the movie doesnt show much, however if we go by mythology itself he was wounmded once when he fought a great warrior i forgot his name and achilles won the fight and it was stated that its the one and only time someone was able to injure him so he is very rarely injured to begin with.

Originally posted by red sabre
well the movie doesnt show much, however if we go by mythology itself he was wounmded once when he fought a great warrior i forgot his name and achilles won the fight and it was stated that its the one and only time someone was able to injure him so he is very rarely injured to begin with.

When he was fighting in Troy it almost was like he had a six sense he knew where to strike and where to defend even if not looking that way, like someone shot an arrow at him from behind and he threw his shield over his back right before it hit him, and the way he moved up the beach taking down multiple people at a time was bad ass, the whole army was shouting his name, Achilles Achilles Achilles

I love that part

Originally posted by Supra
When he was fighting in Troy it almost was like he had a six sense he knew where to strike and where to defend even if not looking that way, like someone shot an arrow at him from behind and he threw his shield over his back right before it hit him, and the way he moved up the beach taking down multiple people at a time was bad ass, the whole army was shouting his name, Achilles Achilles Achilles

I love that part

yeah that was my favorite as well, specially when he is killing the last trojan and you hear achilles achilles and then they close up on his face and you see blood dripping from his helmet.
it was a "you next bro" look he gave Lol

Originally posted by red sabre
yeah that was my favorite as well, specially when he is killing the last trojan and you hear achilles achilles and then they close up on his face and you see blood dripping from his helmet.
it was a "you next bro" look he gave Lol

Yea I wish he had just finished Hector off there, I didn't like to see Patroclus getting his throat cut. He was just a young boy. Made me really sad. Hell everyone was sad they all stopped fighting for the day

Originally posted by Supra
Yea I wish he had just finished Hector off there, I didn't like to see Patroclus getting his throat cut. He was just a young boy. Made me really sad. Hell everyone was sad they all stopped fighting for the day

yeah it was dumb, but achilles wanted glory, he didnt want to finish hector when no one can see, he loves the glory like a real man .

Originally posted by red sabre
yeah it was dumb, but achilles wanted glory, he didnt want to finish hector when no one can see, he loves the glory like a real man .


In the Illiad was Patroclus and Achilles related or where they lovers?

Originally posted by Supra
In the Illiad was Patroclus and Achilles related or where they lovers?

lovers.

Originally posted by red sabre
lovers.

Cool

Originally posted by red sabre
show me a proof they killed thousands upon thousands man, its only your speculation based on your biased opinion, probably they owned couple hundreds but lets not get crazy with the numbers.

how did they get down to 20? you wana tell me 278 died in the battles where they had the advantage all along? really? did the movie state they were down to 20? did you just count?

the immortals number is 10,000? where? did they kill all the immortals? i dont recall them killing the entire immortals army... where do you get those numbers from? i dont recall numbers being stated , most of those numbers are just made by you and make it sound kinda stupid.

as i said already the spartans got slaughtered once the battle was a real battle and not the way the planed it to be in the neckbottle position which they are covering each other with shields and spears, once their tactic is broken they get slaughtered.
Myrmidons conquered the beach in a real fight vs the trojans who are much more trained than the barbaric persians, only unit that is skilled in the persian army are the immortals and we saw how they slaughtered spartans even while in neckbottle situation.
Myrmidons are more impressive than spartans.

Just "a couple hundred"? And you called me bias. Anyhow. Their first fight after the camera pans out we see a 'couple hundred' dead Persians on the floor in the pass; this doesn't count the ones they later 'gave a drink' too in that same battle. That was just one battle. We later see the massive wall they build with the dead and it's in the several hundreds.

Cos they were losing men here and there along the way, as we see Spartans fall. Granted, none the first day. I said around 20, that was going from memory. Upon closer inspection, there's about 40ish. Battle did get "real" then, considering the odds against them.

I'm thinking I got the "10,000" number from the end in the voice over. The Immortals were several hundred going from the formations we got to glimpse. They also weren't all killed. My error there.

"Slaughtered once the battle was real", where do you get this nonsense? The faced larger numbers and more diverse opponents, far more impressive than the beach at Troy. Which Achilles was really the only one who stood out. You're forgetting that the Myrmidon's employed shield-wall tactics themselves and ignoring that there were several scenes of the Spartans fighting out of formation.

Where do you get "the Trojans were better trained" from? Cos the Immortals specifically were named as "elite". Then there was enough archers to darken the sky, alchemist types throwing explosives, war rhino, a few gigantic war elephants, some Zulu-looking fools and ogre-man.

Originally posted by Robtard
Just "a couple hundred"? And you called me bias. Anyhow. Their first fight after the camera pans out we see a 'couple hundred' dead Persians on the floor in the pass; this doesn't count the ones they later 'gave a drink' too in that same battle. That was just one battle. We later see the massive wall they build with the dead and it's in the several hundreds.

Cos they were losing men here and there along the way, as we see Spartans fall. Granted, none the first day. I said around 20, that was going from memory. Upon closer inspection, there's about 40ish. Battle did get "real" then, considering the odds against them.

I'm thinking I got the "10,000" number from the end in the voice over. The Immortals were several hundred going from the formations we got to glimpse. They also weren't all killed. My error there.

"Slaughtered once the battle was real", where do you get this nonsense? The faced larger numbers and more diverse opponents, far more impressive than the beach at Troy. Which Achilles was really the only one who stood out. You're forgetting that the Myrmidon's employed shield-wall tactics themselves and ignoring that there were several scenes of the Spartans fighting out of formation.

Where do you get "the Trojans were better trained" from? Cos the Immortals specifically were named as "elite". Then there was enough archers to darken the sky, alchemist types throwing explosives, war rhino, a few gigantic war elephants, some Zulu-looking fools and ogre-man.

in the first scan it doesnt look like couple hundred it looks like 20 - 30 man, as i pointed out already your biased glasses makes you see things that arent there and make up redicilous numbers as if you know nothing about the value of those numbers.

if we adress the body wall then in the later scenes we see that the wall from behind isnt wider , that wall by the way it looks has probably 150-200 man, again not bringing us any close to thousands on top of thousands in numbers.

then the movie leaves us with errors because at non of the point we saw them losing so many man, i guess that happened when the persian army discovered the path behind them and they basically had a battle off screen where they lost so many man, and they switched to the last stand, again in this last stand even thought they did not have all the 300 man they still didnt do very good at all considering the fact they were slaughtered quickly by archers, at this point even if they were more it wouldnt help them because as fast as those last 40 - 50 fell same would all 300 with slightly more battle.

so basically you made up the number 10,000 which doesnt even look that way, second of all they didnt even slaughter all the immortals unit , when immortals saw they are having losts they didnt continue to attack with all their man, thats why at the end you see more of them, if it would be stated that they killed all immortals then we could use some point, however again the whole unit of the immortals didnt look like 10,000 , it looks far far less.

yes they did face many man however in their terms in a neckbottle situation while being all gathered around next to each other and protecting with shields and spears, the numbers doesnt add too much because its the same as i will be in a room with 10 friends and we will fight 100 people but each time only 5 - 10 people would be able to enter and fight us, in the neckbottle shore the numbers didnt count because the persian army could not attack them with big numbers at the same time, only wave after wave after wave, once they did get to surround them it was over.

also note that even in their advantage situation the immortals managed to slaughter spartans as well.

you are wrong, at the beach battle you see while achilles is fighting his Myrmidons following him and slaughtering all the trojan sodiers around, achilles defeated 30 man in the extended version, his Myrmidons slaughtered all the rest , lets not forget there were not many Myrmidons with him to begin with, as the boats came to shore good amount was killed by archers because while getting down to the beach they were defenseless until just like the spartans they gathered around and formed a tactic to defend themselves.

spartans were fighting out of formation at some points however it was a 2D fight where enemies could only attack them from the front where spartans had huge advantage due to their spears, the fight was at their terms and gave spartans every advantage they needed.

trojans are trained since birth as in most of greece, the trojan army is a very skilled army, persians are barbarics their only trained unit is the immortals unit that was able to slaughter spartans with all the advantages the spartans had.

all those arrows didnt count as anything because the spartans were gathered around and needed just to raise their shields up and have a protecting ceiling from the arrows.

a rhino? a spear throw to the eye took him down not much of a challenge. how is it indication to skills from the persian army?

couple elephants that were intimidated by the spears and fell off the cliffs? how is that indication to skills of persian army?

that slow ogre guy who pinned leonidas to the ground? what did he present aside of strength and size? if anything he was slow and should be easily destroyed.

i am not taking credit from the spartans they did great and are great warriors, however the fights they won were tailor made for them to suit their tactics and their spears, once that tactic was gone they were gone as well.

Listen, I was wrong with the Immortals, i got the "10,000 strong" quote misplaced; I admitted it and manned up, you recapping it as if I didn't is funny though.

What you're doing is ridiculous though, there isn't "20-30" dead men on the floor and that wall is far more than 200. All you have is downplay tactics and you accuse me of being biased.

No, not wrong. They used shield-wall tactics to protect themselves from arrows, the same thing you blew off the Spartans for, except the Spartans faced far more arrows and faced far greater numbers. You're uttelry wanking the beach scene. It was little more than a "look how epic and gorgeous" Achilles is and it focused on him. The Myrmidons (baring Achilles) were no where as impressive as the various Spartans scenes.

I've done this before in this thread, see no point in doing it again with someone who demands support; only to ignore screen caps.

Originally posted by Robtard
Listen, I was wrong with the Immortals, I admitted it and manned up, you recapping it as if I didn't is funny though.

What you're doing is ridiculous though, there isn't "20-30" dead men on the floor and that wall is far more than 200. All you have is downplay tactics and you accuse me of being biased.

I've done this before in this thread, see no point in doing it again with someone who demands support; only to ignore screen caps.

i just repeated that point to show the flaw.

no what i am doing is the same thing you are doing, i throw numbers made purely on speculations just as you do, to mee it looks like 20-30, 100-200, to you it somehow seems more, however you cant use what you think or speculate as a fact, therefor dont come in and say spartans slaughtered thousands on top of thousands persians with no back up to that at all because it looks ridiculous.

of course i demand support to your claim what did you think? you cant come up throw ridiculous numbers and then wonder why do people ask support to that claim.

How brave of you.

In that still, easily 20-25 men could stand side by side, that's no counting the depth. So my estimate is far less ridiculous and more plausible than your "20-30".

Says the guy not posting support for his claims. Clever.

Barring Achilles running around and playing Mr. Stabby-death-machine, the Myrmidons weren't anything too special: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpLtXIlkyYA

Originally posted by Robtard
How brave of you.

In that still, easily 20-25 men could stand side by side, that's no counting the depth. So my estimate is far less ridiculous and more plausible than your "20-30".

Says the guy not posting support for his claims. Clever.

Barring Achilles running around and playing Mr. Stabby-death-machine, the Myrmidons weren't anything too special: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpLtXIlkyYA

at this point you are just being strawman and thats boring me, the Myrmidons alongside achilles defeated all the trojans on the beach and there were plenty of those and even a second unit joined the trojans to assist but it was no good.
at this point you see you are wrong but not man enough to even admit it.

Originally posted by red sabre
at this point you are just being strawman and thats boring me, the Myrmidons alongside achilles defeated all the trojans on the beach and there were plenty of those and even a second unit joined the trojans to assist but it was no good.
at this point you see you are wrong but not man enough to even admit it.

Quoting you isn't using a strawman argument. Which is what I assumed you meant

"All the tojans on the beach"(not that they were all killed), that would be far less than the thousands that attacked the Spartans. Also, like the Persians, the Trojans started to retreat.

Ah, I see why you're here now Says the guy ignoring visual evidence and using "no, wrong!" tactics without supporting.

The films don't support you, enjoy:

HdNn5TZu6R8

bpLtXIlkyYA

Originally posted by Robtard
Quoting you isn't strawmanning.

"All the tojans on the beach"(not that they were all killed), that would be far less than the thousands that attacked the Spartans. Also, like the Persians, the Trojans started to retreat.

Ah, I see why you're here now. Says the guy ignoring visual evidence and using "no, wrong!" tactics without supporting.

The films don't support you, enjoy:

HdNn5TZu6R8

bpLtXIlkyYA

you are strawmaning because you got caught for making numbers out of your a$$ and instead of admiting you make strange excuses.

again you are with this thousands bullcrap? until you show me any evidance the spartans killed thousands of persians your point is invalid.

i watched the clip and counted, first of all before achilles reach the beach with his Myrmidons we see how large the trojan army is the one that is waiting for them, we see dozens of archers, and we see a lot of horseman riding towards the battle field, at this point the beach is full with trojan soldiers.

now we see achilles arrive with his Myrmidons, they jump of the ship and we see 8 Myrmidons being killed by archers, then when they form the shield wall i counted them by the shields there are 32 Myrmidons without achilles, which leads as to the fact achilles was on the ship with 40 Myrmidons.

now until this point 8 were taken out because while getting off the ship they were defenseless, as soon as they formed the shield wall they were ready to battle, now the situation is like that, a beach full of archers and horseman vs achilles and 32 Myrmidons.

then we see the fight, most of whats going on is focusing on achilles however in the background we see his Myrmidons taking trojans out, achilles himself defeated 20 trojans but we clearly saw the beach was full with archers and horseman, who took them all out? the Myrmidons.

clear enough?

now lets get to the spartans again, you see the persian army a very big army however it wasnt the entire persian army that attacked them, they were sending wave after wave of small units because of the neckbottle situation where they couldnt fit large numbers of soldiers in the first place, the spartans had the tactic and reach advantage due to their spears, once the trained immortals got there they were manage to slaughter several spartans.

funny thing is at the final stand leonidas left with like 30 spartans same amount of soldiers achilles had when invading the beach, the difference is the spartns fell like flies in this situation once they were in an open field, the Myrmidons and achilles conquered the entire beach where the trojans had the tactical advantage of high and traps.

overall that clearly tell us achilles and his Myrmidons are superior to leonidas and the spartans.

Originally posted by red sabre
you are strawmaning because you got caught for making numbers out of your a$$ and instead of admiting you make strange excuses.

again you are with this thousands bullcrap? until you show me any evidance the spartans killed thousands of persians your point is invalid.

i watched the clip and counted, first of all before achilles reach the beach with his Myrmidons we see how large the trojan army is the one that is waiting for them, we see dozens of archers, and we see a lot of horseman riding towards the battle field, at this point the beach is full with trojan soldiers.

now we see achilles arrive with his Myrmidons, they jump of the ship and we see 8 Myrmidons being killed by archers, then when they form the shield wall i counted them by the shields there are 32 Myrmidons without achilles, which leads as to the fact achilles was on the ship with 40 Myrmidons.

now until this point 8 were taken out because while getting off the ship they were defenseless, as soon as they formed the shield wall they were ready to battle, now the situation is like that, a beach full of archers and horseman vs achilles and 32 Myrmidons.

then we see the fight, most of whats going on is focusing on achilles however in the background we see his Myrmidons taking trojans out, achilles himself defeated 20 trojans but we clearly saw the beach was full with archers and horseman, who took them all out? the Myrmidons.

clear enough?

now lets get to the spartans again, you see the persian army a very big army however it wasnt the entire persian army that attacked them, they were sending wave after wave of small units because of the neckbottle situation where they couldnt fit large numbers of soldiers in the first place, the spartans had the tactic and reach advantage due to their spears, once the trained immortals got there they were manage to slaughter several spartans.

funny thing is at the final stand leonidas left with like 30 spartans same amount of soldiers achilles had when invading the beach, the difference is the spartns fell like flies in this situation once they were in an open field, the Myrmidons and achilles conquered the entire beach where the trojans had the tactical advantage of high and traps.

overall that clearly tell us achilles and his Myrmidons are superior to leonidas and the spartans.

A "strawman" isn't being incorrect and then saying "yeah, I was incorrect".

AS forthe rest, I recommend you watch the clips closely, stop downplaying the Spartans and stop wanking the Myrmidons.

Originally posted by Robtard
A "strawman" isn't being incorrect and then saying "yeah, I was incorrect".

I recommend you watch the clips closing, stop downplaying the Spartans and stop wanking the Myrmidons.

in other words you got served, it was fun thanks

Originally posted by red sabre
in other words you got served, it was fun thanks

Arbitrary claims of victory won't make the video clips/facts go away This isn't the Comic Vs forum

Originally posted by Robtard
Arbitrary claims of victory won't make the video clips/facts go away This isn't the Comic Vs forum

i addressed everything and gave explanation.

to tell you the truth i find the spartans to be cooler than the Myrmidons.

but i got to stick to the truth, and achilles? this guy is too much of a factor.

Originally posted by red sabre
i addressed everything and gave explanation.

to tell you the truth i find the spartans to be cooler than the Myrmidons.

but i got to stick to the truth, and achilles? this guy is too much of a factor.

Maybe we got off on the wrong side of things.

Achilles is hands down the best fighter here, but a Spartan to his Myrmidon, the Spartans are far superior. 300 clearly portrayed these guys as super-soldier types. While the Myrmidons were good fighters, but the film Troy was basically Achilles' show.

Having said the above, I don't see Achilles' superiority above others turning the tide to favor his side in the group battle when you factor the Spartan to Myrmidon advantage, why I went with:

-Achilles in the first round

-Spartans in the second

Originally posted by Robtard
Maybe we got off on the wrong side of things.

Achilles is hands down the best fighter here, but a Spartan to his Myrmidon, the Spartans are far superior. 300 clearly portrayed these guys as super-soldier types. While the Myrmidons were good fighters, but the film Troy was Achilles' show.

Having said the above, I don't see his superiority above others will turn the tide to favor his side in the group battle when you fastor the Spartan to Myrmidon advantage, why I went with:

-Achilles in the first round

-Spartans in the second

ok lets put it this way, you clearly got your own opinion which is fine and i got my own, until we actually see them battle we cant know much but we can speculate and take guesses.

i understand the way you see things, and then i explained the way i personally see things, so you think spartans because of how strong and brutal they were portrayed, i think Myrmidons because of how they conquered the entire beach and basically stated as the best greek army at that time.

overall both are great armies that use same tactics , are very organized brave and powerful, the Myrmidons perhaps didnt look so stunning because of achilles he stole the show, but doesnt matter what army you give achilles he will leave his army in the dust compared to his skills.

and by the way if i want to be fair then i have also to give the spartans credit for fighting for days without a rest, lets not forget that at their final stand they were probably exhausted after fighting all those waves of armies, the Myrmidons were fresh to fight, of course they were sailing for days to troja and werent 100% themselves however it doesnt compare to the spartans that went thru hell until their last stand.

Nice debate you guys had. Both of you had great points

Originally posted by Robtard
-Achillles

-Leonidas and his Spartans

Originally posted by Robtard
-Achilles in the first round

-Spartans in the second

Yep.

Achilles will defeat Leonidas.

But with the Spartans as a combined unit? Achilles will go down amongst his men once the Myrmidons get killed.

Originally posted by Robtard
Arbitrary claims of victory won't make the video clips/facts go away This isn't the Comic Vs forum You would never last in the comic versus.

The Spartans took on more odds, but the Myrmidons took on a superior force who had the terrain advantage and who were already fortified. That's no easy feat and not many of them even suffered injuries (couple died due to arrows but not many).

The Spartans may still win, but it definitely won't be as easy as some think.

Originally posted by FrothByte
The Spartans took on more odds, but the Myrmidons took on a superior force who had the terrain advantage and who were already fortified. That's no easy feat and not many of them even suffered injuries (couple died due to arrows but not many).

The Spartans may still win, but it definitely won't be as easy as some think.

What made the beach crew of Troy superior to the Immortals exactly?

Originally posted by quanchi112
You would never last in the comic versus.

Says the guy who was chased out of the Comic versus cos he couldn't handle it

Originally posted by juggerman
What made the beach crew of Troy superior to the Immortals exactly? Absolutely nothing.

Originally posted by juggerman
What made the beach crew of Troy superior to the Immortals exactly?


On their own? Nothing. I guess I worded my sentence wrong. The Myrmidons took on a force of superior numbers to them. I didn't mean that the myrmidons took on a superior force than what the spartans took on.

As for superiority over the immortals, I don't know how they stack up to each other in terms of martial skill, but the trojans did get attacked on their own turf and they had fortifications in place and they had the better ground. The immortals took on the spartans in the spartan's home turf and with the spartans already fortified and having the better ground.

Originally posted by Robtard
Says the guy who was chased out of the Comic versus cos he couldn't handle it Ive been there for almost 6 years and can go back whenever I want. Unlike you I am a known posted outside the movie forum.

Quick observation on the dynamic belief systems of the warriors.

Achilles knew he couldn't be bested by anyone.

Leonidas was very aware of his ability to die against superior opponents if one were to come around.

That is perhaps why Achilles was so much more ferocious in combat.

As for a battle.

The Spartans were more tight-knit, they were more efficient in unison. They would gradually merc the less organized Myrmdons with unified shoves and thrusts when the two front lines are connected...simply because their phalanx was slightly more in sync, they did NOT necessarily have better warriors.

Even an outnumbered Achilles would be quite lethal.

Originally posted by Dolos
Quick observation on the dynamic belief systems of the warriors.

Achilles knew he couldn't be bested by anyone.

Leonidas was very aware of his ability to die against superior opponents if one were to come around.

That is perhaps why Achilles was so much more ferocious in combat.

Not true. He knew he was the best but he could be bested/killed just like anybdy.

Originally posted by juggerman
Not true. He knew he was the best but he could be bested/killed just like anybdy.

True

According to the Achilleid, written by Statius in the 1st century AD, and to no surviving previous sources, when Achilles was born Thetis tried to make him immortal, by dipping him in the river Styx. However, he was left vulnerable at the part of the body by which she held him, his heel (see Achilles heel, Achilles' tendon). It is not clear if this version of events was known earlier. In another version of this story, Thetis anointed the boy in ambrosia and put him on top of a fire, to burn away the mortal parts of his body. She was interrupted by Peleus and abandoned both father and son in a rage.
However, none of the sources before Statius makes any reference to this general invulnerability. To the contrary, in the Iliad Homer mentions Achilles being wounded: in Book 21 the Paeonian hero Asteropaeus, son of Pelagon, challenged Achilles by the river Scamander. He cast two spears at once, one grazed Achilles' elbow, "drawing a spurt of blood".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles

Interesting. But in the film Achille pretty much admits he can be killed. The boy finds him in the tent with the two hookers and when Achilles is leaving the boy says "They say you cannot be killed" to which Achilles responds "i wouldn't bother with the shield then would i?" Not a direct quote but close enough

I don't why people keep wanking Achilles in this thread.

People do realize that individual Spartans did manage to either duplicate or surpass some of his feats?

The best spear throwing feat goes to a Spartan for that Rhino take down feat. He managed to spear a rhino through the eye that was charging at him, that is better than achilles long range spear throw to take a guy down from the horse.

Leonidas managed to throw a spear through Xerses thrown.

When the one guy's son and the blond hair spartan were doing their little tag team death dance that was just as good as any of achilles rampages.

Leonidas' Captain went through 6-10 guys easily just to get to his son's body without any help. That was very Achilles like. Now I'm not saying any individual Spartan is beating Achilles but people should stop downplaying the Spartans. Each one of the named Spartans were very Achilles lite in their own right. I think any two of them would be able to beat Achilles in a fight.

Also the Spartans just flat out took on so much more than Achilles' men ever did. It's not even close. Elephants, horses, Rhinos, explosives, massive barrages of arrows, superhumanly strong creatures like the Ogre.

The Mymodans took on a beach front that was still only lightly guarded and still being fortified. Good feat but nothing compared to the Spartans.

Originally posted by Newjak
I don't why people keep wanking Achilles in this thread.

People do realize that individual Spartans did manage to either duplicate or surpass some of his feats?

The best spear throwing feat goes to a Spartan for that Rhino take down feat. He managed to spear a rhino through the eye that was charging at him, that is better than achilles long range spear throw to take a guy down from the horse.

Leonidas managed to throw a spear through Xerses thrown.

When the one guy's son and the blond hair spartan were doing their little tag team death dance that was just as good as any of achilles rampages.

Leonidas' Captain went through 6-10 guys easily just to get to his son's body without any help. That was very Achilles like. Now I'm not saying any individual Spartan is beating Achilles but people should stop downplaying the Spartans. Each one of the named Spartans were very Achilles lite in their own right. I think any two of them would be able to beat Achilles in a fight.

Also the Spartans just flat out took on so much more than Achilles' men ever did. It's not even close. Elephants, horses, Rhinos, explosives, massive barrages of arrows, superhumanly strong creatures like the Ogre.

The Mymodans took on a beach front that was still only lightly guarded and still being fortified. Good feat but nothing compared to the Spartans.

Cuz he's SEXY!!!!!

Also while the rhino feat showed more accuracy Achilles' throw clearly had more power. The throne i dunno since we dunno what it was made out of.

While the Spartans did go thru more they addmittedly up against mostly unskilled fighters. Only the Immortals posed a siginficant threat and they had help with them.

The Mymodans weren't all that great imo. It was Achilles that did the heavy lifting there. I think it would take more than two of the Spartans to down Achilles but not many more.

Originally posted by juggerman
Cuz he's SEXY!!!!!

Also while the rhino feat showed more accuracy Achilles' throw clearly had more power. The throne i dunno since we dunno what it was made out of.

While the Spartans did go thru more they addmittedly up against mostly unskilled fighters. Only the Immortals posed a siginficant threat and they had help with them.

The Mymodans weren't all that great imo. It was Achilles that did the heavy lifting there. I think it would take more than two of the Spartans to down Achilles but not many more. It's hard to gauge cause when the throw is made from achilles the horsemen had gotten closer.

As far as we know Achilles and his Mymodans went up against exactly the same skilled fighters.

I said two of the 'named' Spartans should be able to take him down since most of them had Achilles like feats on their own.

Originally posted by Newjak
It's hard to gauge cause when the throw is made from achilles the horsemen had gotten closer.

As far as we know Achilles and his Mymodans went up against exactly the same skilled fighters.

I said two of the 'named' Spartans should be able to take him down since most of them had Achilles like feats on their own.

True. Going with Achilles for now tho.

No since the Persians were outright stated to be unskilled and scared. The Trojans were superior than the average guys the 300 faced. The Immortals are the exception

Yes i know. I'd say it would take more than two of them. 3-5 would be my guess

Originally posted by juggerman
True. Going with Achilles for now tho.

No since the Persians were outright stated to be unskilled and scared. The Trojans were superior than the average guys the 300 faced. The Immortals are the exception

Yes i know. I'd say it would take more than two of them. 3-5 would be my guess They were never said to be unskilled they were merely called an army of slaves. As you can tell they obviously had different warrior systems they incorporated into their army.

And they became scared because of how skilled the Spartans were and knew death awaited for them should they charge forward. The Trojans really don't have any more feats or any more implied skill than the average Persian warrior.

And even if you do believe that the Spartans still faced far more varied foes like Rhinos and Elephants and much greater numbers.

Like I said feat wise the Trojans Achilles faced weren't any more skilled than what the Spartans went against.

Originally posted by Newjak
They were never said to be unskilled they were merely called an army of slaves. As you can tell they obviously had different warrior systems they incorporated into their army.

And they became scared because of how skilled the Spartans were and knew death awaited for them should they charge forward. The Trojans really don't have any more feats or any more implied skill than the average Persian warrior.

And even if you do believe that the Spartans still faced far more varied foes like Rhinos and Elephants and much greater numbers.

Like I said feat wise the Trojans Achilles faced weren't any more skilled than what the Spartans went against.

It's been a while so i can see how i may have been mistaken about them being called unskilled.

Agreed about them facing various opposition.