Beatrix (FF9) vs. Cloud (FF7)

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TacDavey
Sorry, not pictures. Don't know how to put those in. Someone tell me and maybe I can edit it in or something, but it's not really important.

So, who would win? Beatrix, the female general with the eye patch from FFIX or Cloud, the main protagonist from FF7?

GrieverSquall
Quote this post, Tac, and you'll see how to add a picture.

http://www.dianimex.com/shop/images/Cloud1_.jpg

Heythere,Honey
I vote Cloud, but maybe I'm just biased. sad

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Quote this post, Tac, and you'll see how to add a picture.

Sweet, thanks.

GrieverSquall
No problem.
Do you have any arguments?

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No problem.
Do you have any arguments?

I was hoping to have other people start off the discussion but no one did... I wanted to know what others thought.

NemeBro
Cloud wins for having quantifiable feats, something Beatrix has a noticeable lack of.

TacDavey
Feats aren't everything. She beat Zidane's whole team three times in a row without breaking a sweat, took out 100 soldiers single handedly, and is known as the greatest swordsman in the continent.

NemeBro
Originally posted by TacDavey
Feats aren't everything. She beat Zidane's whole team three times in a row without breaking a sweat, took out 100 soldiers single handedly, and is known as the greatest swordsman in the continent. You have no idea how little I give a shit.

Zidane's team also has a noticeable lack of quantifiable feats.

A hundred soldiers? Oh puh-leez, Sephiroth and Zack say hello, the latter is a weaker Cloud, the former Cloud has beaten.

Greatest swordsman in the continent?

Due to Sephiroth being, you know, sort of dead, Cloud is the de-facto greatest swordsman in the world.

TacDavey
Originally posted by NemeBro
You have no idea how little I give a shit.

Zidane's team also has a noticeable lack of quantifiable feats.

A hundred soldiers? Oh puh-leez, Sephiroth and Zack say hello, the latter is a weaker Cloud, the former Cloud has beaten.

Greatest swordsman in the continent?

Due to Sephiroth being, you know, sort of dead, Cloud is the de-facto greatest swordsman in the world.

The "feats" line of reasoning is getting on my nerves. You don't need them to know someone is powerful. Say there was a character who was completely invincible, had the most powerful magic, and could make things happen with a thought but he was never seen in the game.

Does he have any feats to show?

No.

Would he beat Cloud?

Absolutely.

Beatrix defeating an entire team, especially full of the main characters, is a good display of power. Especially since that whole team defeated Trance Kuja, who would wipe the floor with Cloud in three seconds, since he got a little upset and destroyed a whole flipping world.

She didn't even defeat them once, but three times.

I'm not saying I think she can beat Cloud, but you shouldn't simply pass it off without feeling the need to back it up. She's strong.

NemeBro
Originally posted by TacDavey
The "feats" line of reasoning is getting on my nerves. You don't need them to know someone is powerful. Say there was a character who was completely invincible, had the most powerful magic, and could make things happen with a thought but he was never seen in the game.

Does he have any feats to show?

No.

Would he beat Cloud?

Absolutely.

Beatrix defeating an entire team, especially full of the main characters, is a good display of power. Especially since that whole team defeated Trance Kuja, who would wipe the floor with Cloud in three seconds, since he got a little upset and destroyed a whole flipping world.

She didn't even defeat them once, but three times.

I'm not saying I think she can beat Cloud, but you shouldn't simply pass it off without feeling the need to back it up. She's strong. 1. No they wouldn't. Without a frame of reference, all of that means nothing when compared to another verse. The strongest character in one verse could be a pitiful weakling in another.

2. Trance Kuja easily crushed the team the moment he used Ultima. no expression Also, the party, you know, has grown stronger, she and Steiner were fighting side-by-side when Alexandria was invaded, and both were having difficulty if I recall right.

3. I am saying she cannot beat Cloud since her only fights are against random soldiers, random monsters, and the party, NONE OF WHOM have any real feats I can recall, so there is no frame of reference.

TacDavey
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. No they wouldn't. Without a frame of reference, all of that means nothing when compared to another verse. The strongest character in one verse could be a pitiful weakling in another.

2. Trance Kuja easily crushed the team the moment he used Ultima. no expression Also, the party, you know, has grown stronger, she and Steiner were fighting side-by-side when Alexandria was invaded, and both were having difficulty if I recall right.

3. I am saying she cannot beat Cloud since her only fights are against random soldiers, random monsters, and the party, NONE OF WHOM have any real feats I can recall, so there is no frame of reference.

1.) Are you honestly saying that we cannot conclude that an invincible, basically omnipotent extremely powerful being could beat Cloud because he has no feats? That seems logical to you? Honestly?

2.) He was beaten, though. Ultima was just one last ditch effort to take the team down with him. Which didn't work, as they all lived through it anyway.

3.) And I'm saying feats aren't NECESSARY in determining a characters power. They help, but are not absolutely necessary. The example I gave before is an example of someone we know is extremely powerful with out actually having to have him show it to us.

NemeBro
Originally posted by TacDavey
1.) Are you honestly saying that we cannot conclude that an invincible, basically omnipotent extremely powerful being could beat Cloud because he has no feats? That seems logical to you? Honestly?

2.) He was beaten, though. Ultima was just one last ditch effort to take the team down with him. Which didn't work, as they all lived through it anyway.

3.) And I'm saying feats aren't NECESSARY in determining a characters power. They help, but are not absolutely necessary. The example I gave before is an example of someone we know is extremely powerful with out actually having to have him show it to us. 1. Basically omnipotent. Nowhere in your post implied that. Invincible? If they're invincible in the ****ing "Hey Arthur" universe, yes, I am saying that is perfectly logical. Do you actually know what a frame of reference is? It means we have other characters or aspects to compare them to so as to get an idea of their own power... Beatrix has little.

2. ... Wait, are you trying to imply that Beatrix>Trance Kuja? No, it beat the team, they were only "saved" by Necron.

3. Feats are the most important aspect of determining a character's power. Because statements will NEVER equal feats, nor will their level in the verse if their is no frame of reference.

TacDavey
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Basically omnipotent. Nowhere in your post implied that. Invincible? If they're invincible in the ****ing "Hey Arthur" universe, yes, I am saying that is perfectly logical. Do you actually know what a frame of reference is? It means we have other characters or aspects to compare them to so as to get an idea of their own power... Beatrix has little.

2. ... Wait, are you trying to imply that Beatrix>Trance Kuja? No, it beat the team, they were only "saved" by Necron.

3. Feats are the most important aspect of determining a character's power. Because statements will NEVER equal feats, nor will their level in the verse if their is no frame of reference.

Invincible in any universe is invincible last I checked. I said he could make things happen by thinking about it. That's almost omnipotent.

What do you mean Beatrix has little? She has the whole FF9 world. So we at least know she isn't the strongest swordsman by "Arther" terms.

No, they were still alive after that attack. And besides they still beat him anyway. He did that because he had lost. Anyway, I don't think Beatrix is stronger than Trance Kuja, but that shows that beating the FF9 team isn't something that should be taken lightly. The FF9 characters are pretty powerful.

Your complete dependence on feats is illogical. We all know that a character can be proven strong without ever having to show it. If the game says the character is really strong, you don't need feats to back it up.

NemeBro
Originally posted by TacDavey
Invincible in any universe is invincible last I checked. I said he could make things happen by thinking about it. That's almost omnipotent.

What do you mean Beatrix has little? She has the whole FF9 world. So we at least know she isn't the strongest swordsman by "Arther" terms.

No, they were still alive after that attack. And besides they still beat him anyway. He did that because he had lost. Anyway, I don't think Beatrix is stronger than Trance Kuja, but that shows that beating the FF9 team isn't something that should be taken lightly. The FF9 characters are pretty powerful.

Your complete dependence on feats is illogical. We all know that a character can be proven strong without ever having to show it. If the game says the character is really strong, you don't need feats to back it up. 1. It's a No-Limits fallacy. If someone is invincible in one verse, they could be utterly weak and pitiful in another. Almost omnipotent? You clearly do not grasp the concept of omnipotence. You said make "things" happen, what things? Explosions? Make objects move? Can he give his opponent's erections? Elaborate nucka.

2. She has a hundred red shirts, and the featless FFIX party. Also, the party caught up to her, Steiner kept up with her when fighting at her side, and once again, they both were having difficulty.

3. They were all defeated by him the moment he cast Ultima, and right after they appeared to Necron... Who is the concept of death itself. I may be forgetting something, but based on what I remember and what I just looked up on the FF wiki, signs point to them being killed by it. Why not? It is important to note that other than Ultima, we have little to go on in terms of Trance Kuja's power. Once again, Beatrix beat a weaker party. Also, based on what? We have nothing to gauge their strength on other than the final boss, and the heroes beating a stupidly more powerful enemy is nothing new in FF, FF loves PIS. Tell me... How powerful? Can you tell me how strong they are? Or how fast? Or are you basing everything on them "beating" Trance Kuja? Who did not really lose, he won with Ultima.

4. Complete dependence. Riiiiiiiiight. Are you illiterate? It would explain your replies to me. I said that if we have a frame of reference to base a stronger character on, we can reasonably assume power, it is called powerscaling. For instance, I argued for Slayer against Kain despite Slayer's lack of feats based on his place in the Guilty Gear universe, he is the strongest character, rivaled by only one guy. But I could reasonably do that based on the rest of the cast, he could easily keep up with lightning-timers, and was not harmed by class 100 character's attacks, time warpers and reality warpers pose no threat to him. Because I could compare him to those characters, I could reasonably conclude he would beat Kain.

You cannot say the same with Beatrix.

Keollyn
Beatrix on the grounds of being a character.

TacDavey
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. It's a No-Limits fallacy. If someone is invincible in one verse, they could be utterly weak and pitiful in another. Almost omnipotent? You clearly do not grasp the concept of omnipotence. You said make "things" happen, what things? Explosions? Make objects move? Can he give his opponent's erections? Elaborate nucka.

2. She has a hundred red shirts, and the featless FFIX party. Also, the party caught up to her, Steiner kept up with her when fighting at her side, and once again, they both were having difficulty.

3. They were all defeated by him the moment he cast Ultima, and right after they appeared to Necron... Who is the concept of death itself. I may be forgetting something, but based on what I remember and what I just looked up on the FF wiki, signs point to them being killed by it. Why not? It is important to note that other than Ultima, we have little to go on in terms of Trance Kuja's power. Once again, Beatrix beat a weaker party. Also, based on what? We have nothing to gauge their strength on other than the final boss, and the heroes beating a stupidly more powerful enemy is nothing new in FF, FF loves PIS. Tell me... How powerful? Can you tell me how strong they are? Or how fast? Or are you basing everything on them "beating" Trance Kuja? Who did not really lose, he won with Ultima.

4. Complete dependence. Riiiiiiiiight. Are you illiterate? It would explain your replies to me. I said that if we have a frame of reference to base a stronger character on, we can reasonably assume power, it is called powerscaling. For instance, I argued for Slayer against Kain despite Slayer's lack of feats based on his place in the Guilty Gear universe, he is the strongest character, rivaled by only one guy. But I could reasonably do that based on the rest of the cast, he could easily keep up with lightning-timers, and was not harmed by class 100 character's attacks, time warpers and reality warpers pose no threat to him. Because I could compare him to those characters, I could reasonably conclude he would beat Kain.

You cannot say the same with Beatrix.

1.) Ugh, don't dissect the example. The point was, the character can be known to ultra pwn every enemy ever with the power of pure awesome and brilliance. And we can know that, without feats.

2.) Feat-less FF party? They have feats all through the game. What feats does Cloud have?

3.) He was defeated, though. Ultima was his last ditch effort, notice he was pretty much dead after that battle. That was either from Ultima, thus showing he was suiciding it to take them down, or he was dead just because of the FF party. Either option shows he was defeated. He lost that fight. Ultima was his, I'm dieing last hit, attack. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was a suicide attack, since you see him get blasted off with the explosion as well. So he saw he had lost, and decided to try and take them down with him by using Ultima.

4.) You said Cloud wins because Beatrix has no feats. Sounds pretty dependent to me. You based your conclusion off of nothing more than lack of feats. And why can't Beatrix be compared to the characters around her? Just like your example, we know Beatrix is one of the best sword fighters in FF9. She takes out small armies by herself, as well as establishing her dominance over the whole party numerous times. Also, her battle with the Mistedons shows nothing of her having any sort of trouble. It's Steigner who is getting wounded and Beatrix is worried about HIM. Beatrix is fine.

NemeBro
Originally posted by TacDavey
1.) Ugh, don't dissect the example. The point was, the character can be known to ultra pwn every enemy ever with the power of pure awesome and brilliance. And we can know that, without feats.

2.) Feat-less FF party? They have feats all through the game. What feats does Cloud have?

3.) He was defeated, though. Ultima was his last ditch effort, notice he was pretty much dead after that battle. That was either from Ultima, thus showing he was suiciding it to take them down, or he was dead just because of the FF party. Either option shows he was defeated. He lost that fight. Ultima was his, I'm dieing last hit, attack. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was a suicide attack, since you see him get blasted off with the explosion as well. So he saw he had lost, and decided to try and take them down with him by using Ultima.

4.) You said Cloud wins because Beatrix has no feats. Sounds pretty dependent to me. You based your conclusion off of nothing more than lack of feats. And why can't Beatrix be compared to the characters around her? Just like your example, we know Beatrix is one of the best sword fighters in FF9. She takes out small armies by herself, as well as establishing her dominance over the whole party numerous times. Also, her battle with the Mistedons shows nothing of her having any sort of trouble. It's Steigner who is getting wounded and Beatrix is worried about HIM. Beatrix is fine. 1. If he has a frame of reference in the other characters, characters who are at or above Cloud's level, yes, we can assume he would beat Cloud.

2. Show me them. no expression What feats does Cloud have? Being faster than people who block machine-gun fire in combat, and being able to knock a giant dragon to the ground with his sword. He can cut sections of buildings in half while they fall on him. What does the FFIX party have?

3. Why did you write a paragraph of you repeating the same thing over and over again? So he stalemated the party then, because neither could take Ultima. smile If Kuja had, I dunno, just used Ultima at the beginning from a distance, he would have won the fight immediately, but being a FF villain, of course he didn't.

4. Oh my God it is like talking to a brick. Nothing more? SHE HAS NO FRAME OF REFERENCE. We cannot base her power off of anything because the things she defeats have no traits which we can gauge her own power from, she has beaten random soldiers and the FFIX party, whom also have nothing we can gauge their power from. Steiner was only wounded because he protected Beatrix, was he not?

Facts are, you cannot logically tell how powerful Beatrix is other than she was above the FFIX party, that does not put her above Cloud.

TacDavey
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. If he has a frame of reference in the other characters, characters who are at or above Cloud's level, yes, we can assume he would beat Cloud.

2. Show me them. no expression What feats does Cloud have? Being faster than people who block machine-gun fire in combat, and being able to knock a giant dragon to the ground with his sword. He can cut sections of buildings in half while they fall on him. What does the FFIX party have?

3. Why did you write a paragraph of you repeating the same thing over and over again? So he stalemated the party then, because neither could take Ultima. smile If Kuja had, I dunno, just used Ultima at the beginning from a distance, he would have won the fight immediately, but being a FF villain, of course he didn't.

4. Oh my God it is like talking to a brick. Nothing more? SHE HAS NO FRAME OF REFERENCE. We cannot base her power off of anything because the things she defeats have no traits which we can gauge her own power from, she has beaten random soldiers and the FFIX party, whom also have nothing we can gauge their power from. Steiner was only wounded because he protected Beatrix, was he not?

Facts are, you cannot logically tell how powerful Beatrix is other than she was above the FFIX party, that does not put her above Cloud.

1. Okay, so as long as we know he isn't ultra powerful when compared to, say, and ant. Right, I get that. That is like, an extremely rare accurance and certainly isn't the case here. FF9 has just as much powerhouses as FF7. Probably more, actually, since the villians in FF9 destroy worlds, and the Villians in FF7 piss them off.

2. Show you them? What are all the events of the game? From fighting undead plant things to taking on planet busting Genomes, it's all there. Have you played the game? All of what you just described came from Advent Children, which is not an accurate representation of Clouds abilities.

3. Right, Ultimia is the only thing he's got. That's like saying Ultimicia would win because she would just use time compression before the fight. In a fight with the FF9 party, he looses, unless he casts Ultima from a distance before the actual fight starts. That's like saying a demolition guy is more powerful if he blows up a building from a safe distance. He still wouldn't win in an actual fight.

4. What are you talking about?! No frame of reference? The things she defeats have no traits... right, cuz that makes sense. The FF9 party has nothing to gauge their power on, huh? Then neither does the FF8 party, or the FF7 party.

Tell me, does the FF8 party have any feats? Can you name them? What about the FF7 party? Outside of Advent Children of course. Does a game have to have a movie made from it before we can judge anything from the characters?

Steigner never protects Beatrix at all. When did that happen? All you see is them fighting Mistedons and Steigner gets wounded. He never does so from protecting her.

And why not? Are you saying Cloud can beat the FF9 party? Why?

NemeBro
Originally posted by TacDavey
1. Okay, so as long as we know he isn't ultra powerful when compared to, say, and ant. Right, I get that. That is like, an extremely rare accurance and certainly isn't the case here. FF9 has just as much powerhouses as FF7. Probably more, actually, since the villians in FF9 destroy worlds, and the Villians in FF7 piss them off.

2. Show you them? What are all the events of the game? From fighting undead plant things to taking on planet busting Genomes, it's all there. Have you played the game? All of what you just described came from Advent Children, which is not an accurate representation of Clouds abilities.

3. Right, Ultimia is the only thing he's got. That's like saying Ultimicia would win because she would just use time compression before the fight. In a fight with the FF9 party, he looses, unless he casts Ultima from a distance before the actual fight starts. That's like saying a demolition guy is more powerful if he blows up a building from a safe distance. He still wouldn't win in an actual fight.

4. What are you talking about?! No frame of reference? The things she defeats have no traits... right, cuz that makes sense. The FF9 party has nothing to gauge their power on, huh? Then neither does the FF8 party, or the FF7 party.

Tell me, does the FF8 party have any feats? Can you name them? What about the FF7 party? Outside of Advent Children of course. Does a game have to have a movie made from it before we can judge anything from the characters?

Steigner never protects Beatrix at all. When did that happen? All you see is them fighting Mistedons and Steigner gets wounded. He never does so from protecting her.

And why not? Are you saying Cloud can beat the FF9 party? Why? 1. No, it's not. no expression Beatrix is more powerful than people who have no showings of power, whoopty ****ing doo. With the sole exception of Necron, FFIX is not a very powerful universe, with Trance Kuja and the Eidolons being the only note-worthy factors. Only one FFIX villain has destroyed a planet, and by destroyed, I mean he destroyed the surface, not the entire planet. You know, the kind of shit Jenova has been doing for thousands of years. The kind of shit Omega was built to do. The kind of shit Sephiroth was going to do. FFIX is only stronger due to the existence of Necron, who is capable of turning the universe to nothing.

2. There is one planet busting Genome, and he can only do so with a single attack... Which when used wiped out the party both times. Undead plant things? Because that proves sooooooooo much. You're using A>B>C logic, stop doing so, especially in regards to the fight with the villain, those are nearly always PIS, in many videogames, not just FF either. Advent Children not an accurate representation? GTFO, it is a canon movie in the FFVII universe, and then Crisis Core had the characters doing similar feats, as did Dirge of Cerberus, it is very much an accurate representation. Oh, and before you bring up them not wanting the fights to be realistic, he was referring to the physics behind the fights, he wanted them to look cool.

3. Then please kindly show me another attack that is capable of destroying the surface of a planet. smile Ultimecia kind of already did use Time Compression when the party fought her and was eating all time and space... The party was just immune to her powers because of Love and Friendship, canon explanation. You're right, he would lose, because he did not just use his most powerful attack from the beginning. smile Your example is retarded and you should be ashamed of yourself for using it. The difference is, Ultima is an attack of Kuja's he can use at ANY time, it would be like getting into a fight but not using your arms for seemingly no reason, he gimped himself by not just blowing them away with it, something he was very capable of doing as we saw. You are under the assumption he could not use Ultima in an "actual fight."

4. Then kindly bring up their qualities which makes being above them impressive. smile You're very much right, the FFVII party nor the FFVIII party didn't have anything to gauge their abilities by either in their original games.

No, they have none, at least not from their original games. Well I guess Zell did make a train car shake from punching it in frustration, but other than that, none I recall. Are you trying to imply I thought they did in their original games? No, it doesn't, it just needs quantifiable abilities we know the characters have, for example, we know Dante is capable of easily dodging bullets from DMC, and we know Kratos is really strong from GoW. Neither have movies. Also, stop putting words into my mouth, I don't do it to you and you are my inferior, show some respect to your betters.

Can you give me the video? I looked it up and did not find it, and it has been years since I last played the game.

Yes, Cloud could beat the FFVII party, because we know he is much faster than any of them and stronger, as long as he killed Garnet first he would crush the party.

JustFrame
Cloud, simply because again, we have something to gauge Cloud on, and he's fought someone like Sephiroth and has actually defeated him (although Sephiroth's arrogance had a part to play in that, but which antagonist doesn't!)

Not to mention due to VII having the most spinoff's, canon books to it's storyline and abilities that Cloud has been shown to do, I would give this to him over Beatrix. I don't recall in the game of IX to where Beatrix fought anyone who was remotely close to someone like Sephiroth, so to me at least it's not a very difficult decision.

Although I like Beatrix as a character, she cute, and I'm still shocked someone as pudgy as Steiner got her sick .

TacDavey
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. No, it's not. no expression Beatrix is more powerful than people who have no showings of power, whoopty ****ing doo. With the sole exception of Necron, FFIX is not a very powerful universe, with Trance Kuja and the Eidolons being the only note-worthy factors. Only one FFIX villain has destroyed a planet, and by destroyed, I mean he destroyed the surface, not the entire planet. You know, the kind of shit Jenova has been doing for thousands of years. The kind of shit Omega was built to do. The kind of shit Sephiroth was going to do. FFIX is only stronger due to the existence of Necron, who is capable of turning the universe to nothing.

2. There is one planet busting Genome, and he can only do so with a single attack... Which when used wiped out the party both times. Undead plant things? Because that proves sooooooooo much. You're using A>B>C logic, stop doing so, especially in regards to the fight with the villain, those are nearly always PIS, in many videogames, not just FF either. Advent Children not an accurate representation? GTFO, it is a canon movie in the FFVII universe, and then Crisis Core had the characters doing similar feats, as did Dirge of Cerberus, it is very much an accurate representation. Oh, and before you bring up them not wanting the fights to be realistic, he was referring to the physics behind the fights, he wanted them to look cool.

3. Then please kindly show me another attack that is capable of destroying the surface of a planet. smile Ultimecia kind of already did use Time Compression when the party fought her and was eating all time and space... The party was just immune to her powers because of Love and Friendship, canon explanation. You're right, he would lose, because he did not just use his most powerful attack from the beginning. smile Your example is retarded and you should be ashamed of yourself for using it. The difference is, Ultima is an attack of Kuja's he can use at ANY time, it would be like getting into a fight but not using your arms for seemingly no reason, he gimped himself by not just blowing them away with it, something he was very capable of doing as we saw. You are under the assumption he could not use Ultima in an "actual fight."

4. Then kindly bring up their qualities which makes being above them impressive. smile You're very much right, the FFVII party nor the FFVIII party didn't have anything to gauge their abilities by either in their original games.

No, they have none, at least not from their original games. Well I guess Zell did make a train car shake from punching it in frustration, but other than that, none I recall. Are you trying to imply I thought they did in their original games? No, it doesn't, it just needs quantifiable abilities we know the characters have, for example, we know Dante is capable of easily dodging bullets from DMC, and we know Kratos is really strong from GoW. Neither have movies. Also, stop putting words into my mouth, I don't do it to you and you are my inferior, show some respect to your betters.

Can you give me the video? I looked it up and did not find it, and it has been years since I last played the game.

Yes, Cloud could beat the FFVII party, because we know he is much faster than any of them and stronger, as long as he killed Garnet first he would crush the party.

Oh, I see now. No FF game can actually be used in any thread whatsoever. WOW. Congrats dude. Real top notch line of reasoning.

So why did you even come to this thread? Since FF9 can't show ANYTHING, how do we know Cloud would win? How do we know that the enemies they are fighting wouldn't smoke Cloud because their skin is so durrable that his sword does no damage? And in FF9 the characters have super human strength when compared to FF7 people. I mean, remember, we don't actually know ANYTHING about FF9, so really, we can't say Cloud would win either, can we?

No, no we cannot. Maybe in FF9 a single sword swing would send shockwaves of death on FF7's world. Never mind this thing we are ALL equipped with (for the most part) called common sense. That has no meaning in debates!

In fact, NO RPG can be used. They all need movies!

Well, keep up the top notch logic, bro. It will serve you quite well on this site, I can assure you. Your argument for Cloud is noted.

While I think your conclusion is based off of ridiculously faulty reasoning, I also think Cloud would win.

Originally posted by JustFrame
Cloud, simply because again, we have something to gauge Cloud on, and he's fought someone like Sephiroth and has actually defeated him (although Sephiroth's arrogance had a part to play in that, but which antagonist doesn't!)

Not to mention due to VII having the most spinoff's, canon books to it's storyline and abilities that Cloud has been shown to do, I would give this to him over Beatrix. I don't recall in the game of IX to where Beatrix fought anyone who was remotely close to someone like Sephiroth, so to me at least it's not a very difficult decision.

Although I like Beatrix as a character, she cute, and I'm still shocked someone as pudgy as Steiner got her sick .

Cloud beat Sephiroth, but Sephiroth was still better than Cloud. Apparently he never fought him with his full strength because he didn't want to admit Cloud could hurt him, or something stupid like that. Sephiroth was pretty much the best swordsman in FF7, which is basically the title Beatrix holds in FF9 as well.

I don't know if I'd describe Beatrix as cute... She kinda came off more as a heartless ice queen. And we don't know if Steiner is pudgy under there, that might be muscle. wink

NemeBro
Originally posted by TacDavey
Oh, I see now. No FF game can actually be used in any thread whatsoever. WOW. Congrats dude. Real top notch line of reasoning.

So why did you even come to this thread? Since FF9 can't show ANYTHING, how do we know Cloud would win? How do we know that the enemies they are fighting wouldn't smoke Cloud because their skin is so durrable that his sword does no damage? And in FF9 the characters have super human strength when compared to FF7 people. I mean, remember, we don't actually know ANYTHING about FF9, so really, we can't say Cloud would win either, can we?

No, no we cannot. Maybe in FF9 a single sword swing would send shockwaves of death on FF7's world. Never mind this thing we are ALL equipped with (for the most part) called common sense. That has no meaning in debates!

In fact, NO RPG can be used. They all need movies!

Well, keep up the top notch logic, bro. It will serve you quite well on this site, I can assure you. Your argument for Cloud is noted.

While I think your conclusion is based off of ridiculously faulty reasoning, I also think Cloud would win. 1. In other words, you're a clownshoe who cannot comprehend the words in my posts so you must once again shove words into my mouth? Point out where I said no FF game can be used in a thread, HUMOR ME. If you cannot, then kindly stfu and crawl back into your dwelling. From FFIX, we could easily use Kuja, Necron, any of the Eidolons, and maybe the Invincible, for instance. Using the party is stupid though, since we have no way to quantify how powerful they are.

2. Don't baw to me just because you made a bad thread. smile You are right, technically, we do not "know" Cloud would win, what we do know however is that the FFIX party and Beatrix have never proven to be more powerful than Cloud, why should we assume they are? You seem to think Beatrix is this powerful based on... Really nothing. You just say it as if I should accept it, that's circular reasoning.

3. That's pretty cool. Prove it. smile You're pretty bad at this debating thing, maybe you should just cut your losses and quit? You do not get how logic works, for all we know Cloud is really Jesus in disguise and in a fight can shoot holy orange juice from his nipples which burn at temperatures of a billion degrees Celsius. But we do not assume that, because he has not shown or even been implied to be capable of such things. Why assume the FFIX party and Beatrix are capable of feats they have yet to demonstrate?

4. Why so butthurt that your logic, and in extension your thread, has crumbled in the wake of my omnipotent intellect? I never said they all need movies, and once again, there are FFIX characters we can quantify, the party and Beatrix are not among them.

5. Why are you talking down to me as if you have been on this board for longer? Why does your sentence imply to me that your "KMC rep" is greater than my own? You have been here for two months. no expression My logic has served me well, and, although this comes to no surprise considerin the incredibly vast nature of my intellect, my logic has indeed served me well on this site. 131

6. What you think really has no bearing, considering my logic is very much sound.

TacDavey
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. In other words, you're a clownshoe who cannot comprehend the words in my posts so you must once again shove words into my mouth? Point out where I said no FF game can be used in a thread, HUMOR ME. If you cannot, then kindly stfu and crawl back into your dwelling. From FFIX, we could easily use Kuja, Necron, any of the Eidolons, and maybe the Invincible, for instance. Using the party is stupid though, since we have no way to quantify how powerful they are.

2. Don't baw to me just because you made a bad thread. smile You are right, technically, we do not "know" Cloud would win, what we do know however is that the FFIX party and Beatrix have never proven to be more powerful than Cloud, why should we assume they are? You seem to think Beatrix is this powerful based on... Really nothing. You just say it as if I should accept it, that's circular reasoning.

3. That's pretty cool. Prove it. smile You're pretty bad at this debating thing, maybe you should just cut your losses and quit? You do not get how logic works, for all we know Cloud is really Jesus in disguise and in a fight can shoot holy orange juice from his nipples which burn at temperatures of a billion degrees Celsius. But we do not assume that, because he has not shown or even been implied to be capable of such things. Why assume the FFIX party and Beatrix are capable of feats they have yet to demonstrate?

4. Why so butthurt that your logic, and in extension your thread, has crumbled in the wake of my omnipotent intellect? I never said they all need movies, and once again, there are FFIX characters we can quantify, the party and Beatrix are not among them.

5. Why are you talking down to me as if you have been on this board for longer? Why does your sentence imply to me that your "KMC rep" is greater than my own? You have been here for two months. no expression My logic has served me well, and, although this comes to no surprise considerin the incredibly vast nature of my intellect, my logic has indeed served me well on this site. 131

6. What you think really has no bearing, considering my logic is very much sound.

I'm the one who doesn't know how logic works huh? That's rich, coming from the dude who claims the FF parties strength can't be AT ALL known. How do you tell anyone else's strength? If Cloud beat Yuffie, it would be logical to say Cloud is stronger than Yuffie. So if the collective FF 9 team beat Kuja, we can say that the collective FF9 team is stronger than Kuja. THAT'S logic. I'll tell you what ISN'T logic, though.

Beatrix looses cause she has no feats.

I'm really digging the big headedness your sporting though. Makes it all the more humorous that you're so ridiculously illogical. But I guess those two things usually come in pairs don't they?

1. You said the FF characters don't have feats. FF7, according to you, does because they have Advent Children. AND according to you. If there are no feats, they cannot be used. Thus, if you need things like AC to have feats, and no old school FF game has AC like action, the old school FF games don't have feats. Am I right? And no feats means no thread use.

2. Ah, and you are supposed to be so brilliant in logic? Tell me you aren't saying the FF party is weaker than Cloud because we don't have anything that shows them stronger. That's a fallacy, NemeBro.

I never said Beatrix was stronger than Cloud. In fact, I think Cloud would win. The difference is I actually have good reasons to think Cloud would win, not "Beatrix has no feats, thus Cloud wins." That is one of the worst arguments I have ever heard, and I'm ashamed that it came from someone supporting my side.

3. But how do we know Cloud isn't burning orange nipple Jesus? We use common sense. So, unless there is reason to think that anything is different between FF9 and FF7, and I'd like to hear if there is, we can logically assume that there isn't.

4. I'm not butthurt, but I'm allergic to irrationality and you are heavy with the stuff. I see no reason Beatrix and the party can't be among the people we can quantify. If Beatrix beats Zidane, she's stronger than Zidane. That's not that hard. So if the FF9 party beats Kuja, they are collectively stronger than him. It's logic. What is the difference between Kuja and Beatrix?

5. I know, right? I've only been hear two months and I'm already better at this than you!

6. It's anything but.

JustFrame
Originally posted by TacDavey
Cloud beat Sephiroth, but Sephiroth was still better than Cloud. Apparently he never fought him with his full strength because he didn't want to admit Cloud could hurt him, or something stupid like that. Sephiroth was pretty much the best swordsman in FF7, which is basically the title Beatrix holds in FF9 as well.

I agree 100% that Sephiroth was holding back nearly all of his power and potential, however regardless, Cloud still defeated a holding back Sephiroth, which is again a more powerful opponent than anyone Beatrix has confronted or been known to have contested and defeated.

That's really the basis here, because even though Beatrix is the best Swordsman, we haven't seen Beatrix slicing through solid concrete and steel like as though it were butter. Cloud did this easily, and we also see Cloud being fast enough to deflect bullets, not to mention Cloud's ridiculous leaping abilities and his ability to defy gravity when he's running up vertically on the side of a building while cutting through objects that are made of metal and concrete.

I like Beatrix, but just simply being the best swordsman isn't enough for me to give her the nod, simply because again, it's hard to gauge her abilities, and more importantly the opponents she's fought against don't even rival the Holding Back Sephiroth that Cloud defeated.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I don't know if I'd describe Beatrix as cute... She kinda came off more as a heartless ice queen. And we don't know if Steiner is pudgy under there, that might be muscle. wink

Beatrix is really sexy and cute together imo, sure she can be cold, but she changes somewhat after hooking up with Steiner.

I agree to that 100%

TacDavey
Originally posted by JustFrame
I agree 100% that Sephiroth was holding back nearly all of his power and potential, however regardless, Cloud still defeated a holding back Sephiroth, which is again a more powerful opponent than anyone Beatrix has confronted or been known to have contested and defeated.

That's really the basis here, because even though Beatrix is the best Swordsman, we haven't seen Beatrix slicing through solid concrete and steel like as though it were butter. Cloud did this easily, and we also see Cloud being fast enough to deflect bullets, not to mention Cloud's ridiculous leaping abilities and his ability to defy gravity when he's running up vertically on the side of a building while cutting through objects that are made of metal and concrete.

I like Beatrix, but just simply being the best swordsman isn't enough for me to give her the nod, simply because again, it's hard to gauge her abilities, and more importantly the opponents she's fought against don't even rival the Holding Back Sephiroth that Cloud defeated.

Well, to be fair, I'm not sure I accept Clouds feats in Advent Children as accurate representations of his abilities. He doesn't seem to be doing any of that in the original FF7 and the developers of AC already stated that they weren't worried about what was "realistic" when making the movie. They were only worried about what looked cool. So I tend to go on what we know of Cloud from FF7, rather than his feats in AC, as this was likely a new battle and animation style only now being used in FF games and movies. I mean look at Dissidia as well. Those fights were basically Advent Children like fights. And Zidane was doing all that too. If you want to use AC feats to prove Cloud is above Beatrix, then you would also have to claim Zidane is above Beatrix, but we know from the game that that isn't true.

More likely it is just the new style being used recently, and if Beatrix were to ever pop up in one, I'd bet she would be doing that stuff too.

As for Holding Back Sephiroth, I can see the line of reasoning there, but I don't think it can really be backed up. We don't know how strong Holding Back Sephiroth is, because every time he holds back, he looses to Cloud. Holding Back Sephiroth doesn't really have any gauge on his abilities other than "not stronger than Cloud."


Originally posted by JustFrame
Beatrix is really sexy and cute together imo, sure she can be cold, but she changes somewhat after hooking up with Steiner.

I agree to that 100%

Yeah, I guess she does.

NemeBro
Originally posted by TacDavey
I'm the one who doesn't know how logic works huh? That's rich, coming from the dude who claims the FF parties strength can't be AT ALL known. How do you tell anyone else's strength? If Cloud beat Yuffie, it would be logical to say Cloud is stronger than Yuffie. So if the collective FF 9 team beat Kuja, we can say that the collective FF9 team is stronger than Kuja. THAT'S logic. I'll tell you what ISN'T logic, though.

Beatrix looses cause she has no feats.

I'm really digging the big headedness your sporting though. Makes it all the more humorous that you're so ridiculously illogical. But I guess those two things usually come in pairs don't they?

1. You said the FF characters don't have feats. FF7, according to you, does because they have Advent Children. AND according to you. If there are no feats, they cannot be used. Thus, if you need things like AC to have feats, and no old school FF game has AC like action, the old school FF games don't have feats. Am I right? And no feats means no thread use.

2. Ah, and you are supposed to be so brilliant in logic? Tell me you aren't saying the FF party is weaker than Cloud because we don't have anything that shows them stronger. That's a fallacy, NemeBro.

I never said Beatrix was stronger than Cloud. In fact, I think Cloud would win. The difference is I actually have good reasons to think Cloud would win, not "Beatrix has no feats, thus Cloud wins." That is one of the worst arguments I have ever heard, and I'm ashamed that it came from someone supporting my side.

3. But how do we know Cloud isn't burning orange nipple Jesus? We use common sense. So, unless there is reason to think that anything is different between FF9 and FF7, and I'd like to hear if there is, we can logically assume that there isn't.

4. I'm not butthurt, but I'm allergic to irrationality and you are heavy with the stuff. I see no reason Beatrix and the party can't be among the people we can quantify. If Beatrix beats Zidane, she's stronger than Zidane. That's not that hard. So if the FF9 party beats Kuja, they are collectively stronger than him. It's logic. What is the difference between Kuja and Beatrix?

5. I know, right? I've only been hear two months and I'm already better at this than you!

6. It's anything but. Discounting beating the main villains, quantify their strength for me please. A>B>C logic is generally not a good way to quantify the abilities of a character. Yes, if Cloud beat Yuffie, it would be logical to say he could. We really can't when you consider that Kuja easily blew them all away when he used his best attack, the one that he refused to use for the entire fight, in a fight where we do not know what happened. Maybe Trance Kuja lost because he is very slow in comparison? Maybe he lost because he was too overconfident? Or maybe it was what most FF villain battles are and it was PIS? Using your A>B>C logic and completely ignoring everything else, the FFV, FFIX, FFVIII, and FFIII parties are all universal in power because they beat universal characters. FF is practically built on PIS.

Stop strawmanning my argument, it is not just that she has no feats, we cannot even powerscale her abilities.

Big headedness? Oh dear no, when one considers the incredible vastness of my intellect, I am being quite modest. smile

1. They generally don't, most FF characters do not. Yes, because of AC, we were given a more clear idea of the capabilities of the party. Once again, stop strawmanning my argument. An individual character does not necessarily need feats, if Zidane and the party were confirmed bullet-timers for instance, we could safely assume that Beatrix is a bullet-timer as well, and is in fact faster than the party so could do it with less effort. "Things" like AC? Not every FF character from one of the older games lacks feats, I already ****ing brought up some that did. Thing is, you still have failed to quantify the statistical abilities of the FFIX party, so you are just arguing out of your ass at this point, prove up or shut up.

2. I am very well aware it is, and am also aware that I am not technically using it. That would be an argument from ignorance, stating that because it has not been proven true, it must be false. I am saying that because they have yet to prove they are stronger than Cloud, it is safer to assume they are not. Kind of like how it is safer to assume that some random guy off of the street would not be able to beat Mike Tyson in a boxing match because he has nothing to prove he could.

Then please tell me why you think Cloud would win? Is it based on his blonde emo hair? Or maybe because his sword is bigger? Ooooooh wait no, it must be because his shirt only has one sleeve! I think Cloud would probably win because based on everything we know, Cloud is more impressive, Beatrix may be an FTL Multiverse buster who can fire radioactive breast-milk, but she has not proven to be one yet, she has not proven to be near Cloud's level, nor have the people she has beaten.

3. Well the most pressing difference seems to be that FFVII is far more technologically advanced than FFIX is and the only reason people like Cloud exist is due to genetic super-soldier programs using the DNA of a nigh-godlike being. smile Why would I assume they are the same? They are different universes, connected only by being made by the same company and with a few of the series' trademarks, are you implying all FF verses are the same? You would have to prove such a statement, I do not need to prove they are not, the burden of proof is in fact on you.

4. Then stfu and DO SO. If you can quantify them, be my guest. She was stronger than Zidane, the party that fought Kuja then had not fought Beatrix in a while. Are you implying Beatrix<Kuja? Funny, Queen Brahne did not think so, which was a sore point for Beatrix, having to take a backseat to Kuja and his Black Mages. The difference is one is the final boss (Not counting Necron), which are nearly always PIS. Or can the FFIX party perform universal feats and survive such attacks? Necron was a universe ender.

5. Funny, because based on what I have seen, you would not have been a match for me a year ago. You have been repeating the same illogical argument this entire thread.

6. Anything but spectacularly amazing? Agreed.

TacDavey
Originally posted by NemeBro
Discounting beating the main villains, quantify their strength for me please. A>B>C logic is generally not a good way to quantify the abilities of a character. Yes, if Cloud beat Yuffie, it would be logical to say he could. We really can't when you consider that Kuja easily blew them all away when he used his best attack, the one that he refused to use for the entire fight, in a fight where we do not know what happened. Maybe Trance Kuja lost because he is very slow in comparison? Maybe he lost because he was too overconfident? Or maybe it was what most FF villain battles are and it was PIS? Using your A>B>C logic and completely ignoring everything else, the FFV, FFIX, FFVIII, and FFIII parties are all universal in power because they beat universal characters. FF is practically built on PIS.

Stop strawmanning my argument, it is not just that she has no feats, we cannot even powerscale her abilities.

Big headedness? Oh dear no, when one considers the incredible vastness of my intellect, I am being quite modest. smile

1. They generally don't, most FF characters do not. Yes, because of AC, we were given a more clear idea of the capabilities of the party. Once again, stop strawmanning my argument. An individual character does not necessarily need feats, if Zidane and the party were confirmed bullet-timers for instance, we could safely assume that Beatrix is a bullet-timer as well, and is in fact faster than the party so could do it with less effort. "Things" like AC? Not every FF character from one of the older games lacks feats, I already ****ing brought up some that did. Thing is, you still have failed to quantify the statistical abilities of the FFIX party, so you are just arguing out of your ass at this point, prove up or shut up.

2. I am very well aware it is, and am also aware that I am not technically using it. That would be an argument from ignorance, stating that because it has not been proven true, it must be false. I am saying that because they have yet to prove they are stronger than Cloud, it is safer to assume they are not. Kind of like how it is safer to assume that some random guy off of the street would not be able to beat Mike Tyson in a boxing match because he has nothing to prove he could.

Then please tell me why you think Cloud would win? Is it based on his blonde emo hair? Or maybe because his sword is bigger? Ooooooh wait no, it must be because his shirt only has one sleeve! I think Cloud would probably win because based on everything we know, Cloud is more impressive, Beatrix may be an FTL Multiverse buster who can fire radioactive breast-milk, but she has not proven to be one yet, she has not proven to be near Cloud's level, nor have the people she has beaten.

3. Well the most pressing difference seems to be that FFVII is far more technologically advanced than FFIX is and the only reason people like Cloud exist is due to genetic super-soldier programs using the DNA of a nigh-godlike being. smile Why would I assume they are the same? They are different universes, connected only by being made by the same company and with a few of the series' trademarks, are you implying all FF verses are the same? You would have to prove such a statement, I do not need to prove they are not, the burden of proof is in fact on you.

4. Then stfu and DO SO. If you can quantify them, be my guest. She was stronger than Zidane, the party that fought Kuja then had not fought Beatrix in a while. Are you implying Beatrix<Kuja? Funny, Queen Brahne did not think so, which was a sore point for Beatrix, having to take a backseat to Kuja and his Black Mages. The difference is one is the final boss (Not counting Necron), which are nearly always PIS. Or can the FFIX party perform universal feats and survive such attacks? Necron was a universe ender.

5. Funny, because based on what I have seen, you would not have been a match for me a year ago. You have been repeating the same illogical argument this entire thread.

6. Anything but spectacularly amazing? Agreed.

1. Okay, you think Advent Children is an accurate representation of the characters abilities? Then Dissidia must be too, right? Since the fights are all Advent Children fights in that game. Thus, Zidane can do Advent Children feats too, since he does so in Dissidia, and since Beatrix is far stronger than Zidane, who was pulling Advent Children attacks, we can logically conclude that Beatrix not only can perform those feats, but is likely better than Cloud as she schools Zidane, who was performing right along with Cloud.

2. You basically just repeated the fallacy with different words. When it comes down to it, you said Cloud can beat the entire FF9 team, because they haven't shown that they could beat him. That's the fallacy right there. An appeal to ignorance. If you said the guy on the street couldn't beat Mike Tyson because he hasn't shown he can, you are performing the fallacy right there too. The guy probably couldn't beat Mike Tyson, but your reasoning for getting to that conclusion was fallacious, just as it was with the FF9 party. And so cannot be used to support the conclusion.

3. That's not quite what I meant. I mean that feats would mean the same in one world as they did in another unless you have reason to think otherwise. For example, defeating a whole army of soldiers would be just as impressive in FF9 as it would be in FF7.

4. I don't think the fight with Kuja was necessarily PIS. Ultima obviously kills him when he uses it, for some reason, even though it didn't before. Whatever the reason, he couldn't use it in a fight as it would kill him in the process. It's like a suicide bomb attack. It's useless in a fight. It's like Time Compression. Sure Time Compression would beat pretty much anyone (except really good friends) if used before the fight. But since it takes lots of preparation, and she needs a machine and another possessed girl to do it, in a one on one fight with Ultimicia Time Compression is useless. Sure, Ultima could potentially take out enemies if you get them with it BEFORE the fight starts, but in an actual fight, it's practically useless. Just like I wouldn't consider Ultimicia more powerful than someone because she has Time Compression, I wouldn't consider Kuja more powerful because he has Ultima.

5. Well, you have certainly come down a ways in a year then.

6. Uh... you realize you just dissed yourself, right? You just said your logic is anything but spectacularly amazing. erm

GrieverSquall
Wow... I never thought that Beatrix Vs. Cloud was about to get into a debate.

Well, nothing to add really... But just pointing out that Dissidia may be not canon, so I don't know if you can use Zidane's feats, and Beatrix has not been introduced in that game.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Wow... I never thought that Beatrix Vs. Cloud was about to get into a debate.

Well, nothing to add really... But just pointing out that Dissidia may be not canon, so I don't know if you can use Zidane's feats, and Beatrix has not been introduced in that game.

Yeah, but that's not the point. If Zidane can do that, and Beatrix is stronger than Zidane, then she must be able to as well.

GrieverSquall
If Dissidia is canon, then yes, you can use it. Zidane isn't doing anything impressive anyway.

NemeBro
Originally posted by TacDavey
1. Okay, you think Advent Children is an accurate representation of the characters abilities? Then Dissidia must be too, right? Since the fights are all Advent Children fights in that game. Thus, Zidane can do Advent Children feats too, since he does so in Dissidia, and since Beatrix is far stronger than Zidane, who was pulling Advent Children attacks, we can logically conclude that Beatrix not only can perform those feats, but is likely better than Cloud as she schools Zidane, who was performing right along with Cloud.

2. You basically just repeated the fallacy with different words. When it comes down to it, you said Cloud can beat the entire FF9 team, because they haven't shown that they could beat him. That's the fallacy right there. An appeal to ignorance. If you said the guy on the street couldn't beat Mike Tyson because he hasn't shown he can, you are performing the fallacy right there too. The guy probably couldn't beat Mike Tyson, but your reasoning for getting to that conclusion was fallacious, just as it was with the FF9 party. And so cannot be used to support the conclusion.

3. That's not quite what I meant. I mean that feats would mean the same in one world as they did in another unless you have reason to think otherwise. For example, defeating a whole army of soldiers would be just as impressive in FF9 as it would be in FF7.

4. I don't think the fight with Kuja was necessarily PIS. Ultima obviously kills him when he uses it, for some reason, even though it didn't before. Whatever the reason, he couldn't use it in a fight as it would kill him in the process. It's like a suicide bomb attack. It's useless in a fight. It's like Time Compression. Sure Time Compression would beat pretty much anyone (except really good friends) if used before the fight. But since it takes lots of preparation, and she needs a machine and another possessed girl to do it, in a one on one fight with Ultimicia Time Compression is useless. Sure, Ultima could potentially take out enemies if you get them with it BEFORE the fight starts, but in an actual fight, it's practically useless. Just like I wouldn't consider Ultimicia more powerful than someone because she has Time Compression, I wouldn't consider Kuja more powerful because he has Ultima.

5. Well, you have certainly come down a ways in a year then.

6. Uh... you realize you just dissed yourself, right? You just said your logic is anything but spectacularly amazing. erm 1. You're confusing what I think with factual information. Dissidia is not canon like AC is. They are all Advent Children fights? Why...? Because they do t3h soopa flips and aerial combatz!? Something AC certainly was not the first to do. Zidane can do Advent Children feats too? Oh, so you can prove he can effortlessly deflect bullets, carve apart large sections of building, and knock giant monsters down to the ground with his sword? No, you cannot. Although I have come to not expect much from you, this is a really bad point, even for one such as you.

2. No, I did not. I acknowledge it possible that Zidane may be stronger than Cloud, but probable? Facts are, we do in fact know that Cloud and friend's displays of fighting abilities vastly outstrip those of the FFIX party, so based on this information we must assume that Ckoud is stronger. I think he could beat them that easily because there is not so much as an implication that they would be able to handle his speed. Their only hope would be an Eidolon. Mike Tyson is a far better fighter than the majority of the world's fighters, correct? If some random guy on the street walks by, or better yet if someone whom I know and who has never proven to be near the fighter Tyson is walks by (This example is more similar to the topic at hand), then I can safely assume that they cannot beat Tyson. The possibility exists, of course, but is it probable? Absolutely not. Tell me then oh vastly inferior semi-sentient life-form, how would you conclude Cloud can beat Zidane/Beatrix/Whatever.

3. Only soldiers in FFVII possess far greater technology, like firearms, grenades, military vehicles, etc. They also possess magic, via materia. What do garden variety FFIX soldiers have above this? Also, a hundred soldiers hardly constitutes an army.

4. Oh? Why not? Considering we... Know he can use it in a fight and he has? Also, Kuja can kind of, you know, fly. no expression He does not need to be near the party to use it. Also, just looked it up, that particular Ultima was INTENDED as a suicide attack, he fired it directly at himself and the party, he does not need to do so. So yeah, you are wrong.

5. I would say I have gone up. This should not surprise me though, this would not be the first time an inferior creature could not comprehend my superior logical abilities and intellect.

6. Touche.

TacDavey
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. You're confusing what I think with factual information. Dissidia is not canon like AC is. They are all Advent Children fights? Why...? Because they do t3h soopa flips and aerial combatz!? Something AC certainly was not the first to do. Zidane can do Advent Children feats too? Oh, so you can prove he can effortlessly deflect bullets, carve apart large sections of building, and knock giant monsters down to the ground with his sword? No, you cannot. Although I have come to not expect much from you, this is a really bad point, even for one such as you.


They are Advent Children fights because they were made to look and feel like Advent Children fights. It's unmistakable. Not one of the characters from Dissidia could do what they do in their original games. And Cloud couldn't do what he did in Advent Children originally. They decided to screw what was realistic and go solely on what looks cool. Again, they said so themselves. That's just the style they used. Zidane comes along on the ride just like everyone else. We can see this new battle style being applied to more than just FF7.

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. No, I did not. I acknowledge it possible that Zidane may be stronger than Cloud, but probable? Facts are, we do in fact know that Cloud and friend's displays of fighting abilities vastly outstrip those of the FFIX party, so based on this information we must assume that Ckoud is stronger. I think he could beat them that easily because there is not so much as an implication that they would be able to handle his speed. Their only hope would be an Eidolon. Mike Tyson is a far better fighter than the majority of the world's fighters, correct? If some random guy on the street walks by, or better yet if someone whom I know and who has never proven to be near the fighter Tyson is walks by (This example is more similar to the topic at hand), then I can safely assume that they cannot beat Tyson. The possibility exists, of course, but is it probable? Absolutely not. Tell me then oh vastly inferior semi-sentient life-form, how would you conclude Cloud can beat Zidane/Beatrix/Whatever.

"Most people in the world can't beat Mike Tyson, thus this guy probably can't"

Is a MUCH different argument than

"This guy hasn't shown that he can beat Mike Tyson, thus he can't."

You were applying the second argument when you said the FF9 party hasn't shown themselves to be stronger than Cloud. The second one is a fallacy. Thus, your argument was fallacious.

Now you changed it to: The FF9 party hasn't shown they can beat Cloud, thus they probably can't? Which is still flawed reasoning. You need reasons other than "They haven't shown it" to be able to conclude something like that. Tell me WHY the FF9 party seems inferior to Cloud, and I don't want your evidence to be: "They've never shown themselves special."

Originally posted by NemeBro
3. Only soldiers in FFVII possess far greater technology, like firearms, grenades, military vehicles, etc. They also possess magic, via materia. What do garden variety FFIX soldiers have above this? Also, a hundred soldiers hardly constitutes an army.

Again, you missed the point. Defeating an army of Alexandrian soldiers single handedly means the same thing in both worlds.

I said SMALL army. 100 soldiers isn't a scouting party.

Originally posted by NemeBro
4. Oh? Why not? Considering we... Know he can use it in a fight and he has? Also, Kuja can kind of, you know, fly. no expression He does not need to be near the party to use it. Also, just looked it up, that particular Ultima was INTENDED as a suicide attack, he fired it directly at himself and the party, he does not need to do so. So yeah, you are wrong.

That makes no sense. Where did you read that? And anyway, they still defeated Necron.

GrieverSquall

TacDavey

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
GrieverSquall, let's be honest here. The Dissidia fights looks JUST like AC children. Look at the explanation you provided. That quote, while talking about Advent Children, also works for Dissidia. If you didn't know it was said about Advent Children, you might think they were talking about Dissidia here.

That's true of Dissidia too. The fights are just as exaggerated in Dissidia as they are in Advent Children. Almost everyone see's this.

If you are looking for a quote saying specifically that the game was suppose to look like Advent Children, you won't get it. Because I don't have it. I'm using a little common sense to draw that conclusion.

That interview works for Dissidia? Except isn't for Dissidia. All I'm saying is that they are using new and modern CG technology to make the games. You can't use Dissidia to help Beatrix, I think Dissidia isn't canon.

What about Kingdom Hearts? They used the same technology to make that game, very similar to Dissidia. Advent Children looks like Matrix fights.

Also, we can logically decide if they are inaccurate or not, but I don't have time for that.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Also, Crisis Core doesn't do that, huh? Are you sure?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDCiZf3XEpI

Yes. But Crisis Core is canon to Final Fantasy VII, that's the difference. In the reactor scene when Sephiroth stabs Cloud, we can see Cloud doing some high jump when he attacks Sephiroth with the Buster Sword. If that didn't happen in the original Final Fantasy VII game, then it's a ret-con.

That's all, I don't want to interfere in your debate.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That interview works for Dissidia? Except isn't for Dissidia. All I'm saying is that they are using new and modern CG technology to make the games. You can't use Dissidia to help Beatrix, I think Dissidia isn't canon.

What about Kingdom Hearts? They used the same technology to make that game, very similar to Dissidia. Advent Children looks like Matrix fights.

New and Modern CG technology and New and Modern battle style. That's the point. This style of fighting is new, it JUST happened. And it isn't just being applied to FF7, but to many games. Dissidia is an example. That's the direction they decided to take the fighting, regardless of the inconsistencies it brings up. They just want it to "look cool". You cannot use Advent Children to show Cloud is superior to the other FF characters, or there wouldn't even be a Cloud vs. Squall debate at all.

Either Cloud can't really do what he does in Advent Children, or it's a change that brings with it the rest of Final Fantasy. Either way, Advent Children can't be used to show Cloud's dominance over the other characters.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That's all, I don't want to interfere in your debate.

It isn't OUR debate, it's anyone's.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
New and Modern CG technology and New and Modern battle style. That's the point. This style of fighting is new, it JUST happened. And it isn't just being applied to FF7, but to many games. Dissidia is an example. That's the direction they decided to take the fighting, regardless of the inconsistencies it brings up. They just want it to "look cool". You cannot use Advent Children to show Cloud is superior to the other FF characters, or there wouldn't even be a Cloud vs. Squall debate at all.

Either Cloud can't really do what he does in Advent Children, or it's a change that brings with it the rest of Final Fantasy. Either way, Advent Children can't be used to show Cloud's dominance over the other characters.

It isn't OUR debate, it's anyone's.

Not really, that is like a real-time RPG, that's why is different from turn-based RPGs. I just searched for a Dissidia interview and I found this:

"TA: This game's development team is behind the battle scenes of the PS2 Action-RPG game "Kingdom Hearts 2". I thought it would be fun if we incorporated the amount of freedom that comes with 3D into a fighting game. Because there aren't that many fighting games with an Action-RPG style concept, I thought the players' expectations would be a little low too."

They made Dissidia's gameplay using Kingdom Hearts as reference, not Advent Children. As for Advent Children, Square-Enix stated that they are using the movie as referene to make Final Fantasy Versus XIII, the fights will be made Advent Children-like. I have read that in a interview.

I agree about Cloud there, but I'm not using anything from the movie, don't worry. I just named the reactor scene when we see Cloud doing some super jump with the Buster Sword, if that didn't happen in the original game, it's a ret-con.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Not really, that is like a real-time RPG, that's why is different from turn-based RPGs. I just searched for a Dissidia interview and I found this:

"TA: This game's development team is behind the battle scenes of the PS2 Action-RPG game "Kingdom Hearts 2". I thought it would be fun if we incorporated the amount of freedom that comes with 3D into a fighting game. Because there aren't that many fighting games with an Action-RPG style concept, I thought the players' expectations would be a little low too."

They made Dissidia's gameplay using Kingdom Hearts as reference, not Advent Children. As for Advent Children, Square-Enix stated that they are using the movie as referene to make Final Fantasy Versus XIII, the fights will be made Advent Children-like. I have read that in a interview.

I agree about Cloud there, but I'm not using anything from the movie, don't worry. I just named the reactor scene when we see Cloud doing some super jump with the Buster Sword, if that didn't happen in the original game, it's a ret-con.

1.) I don't think they based the action off of Kingdom Hearts, they just have the same development team and wanted to do a battle system that was a Action-RPG type, Like Kingdom Hearts.

2.) Have you seen Kingdom Heart's fights? They are Advent Children like as well. The last battle has Sora jumping sky scrapers and cutting through entire buildings. Just like Advent Children.

Wait... you agree about Cloud? Then Advent Children doesn't show Cloud above Beatrix. My point the whole time.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
1.) I don't think they based the action off of Kingdom Hearts, they just have the same development team and wanted to do a battle system that was a Action-RPG type, Like Kingdom Hearts.

2.) Have you seen Kingdom Heart's fights? They are Advent Children like as well. The last battle has Sora jumping sky scrapers and cutting through entire buildings. Just like Advent Children.

Wait... you agree about Cloud? Then Advent Children doesn't show Cloud above Beatrix. My point the whole time.

They're talking about the battles and the action is pretty much present as well. They based those off of Kingdom Hearts since they have the same development team that worked on Kingdom Hearts' real-time RPG battles.

You think so...? Cuz real-time RPGs in general are like that and Kingdom Hearts came before Advent Children. I don't think they are basing their work on Advent Children, just Final Fantasy Versus XIII because is stated they're doing it.

Yes, in some things that doesn't fit.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You think so...? Cuz real-time RPGs in general are like that and Kingdom Hearts came before Advent Children. I don't think they are basing their work on Advent Children, just Final Fantasy Versus XIII because is stated they're doing it.

I didn't say Kingdom Hearts was based off of Advent Children, but regardless it's fights are the same style. Just another example of the switch in battle styles.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Yes, in some things that doesn't fit.

In this thing it doesn't fit.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
I didn't say Kingdom Hearts was based off of Advent Children, but regardless it's fights are the same style. Just another example of the switch in battle styles.

Nah.
There are others Real-Time RPG games made by Square and looks exactly the same, look at Brave Fencer Musashi. Real-Time RPG games are like that, they are very different from Turn-Based RPGs, cuz you can have total control over the characters and freely move around the places. That has nothing to do with any switches.

Originally posted by TacDavey
In this thing it doesn't fit.

Perhaps.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Nah.
There are others Real-Time RPG games made by Square and looks exactly the same, look at Brave Fencer Musashi. Real-Time RPG games are like that, they are very different from Turn-Based RPGs, cuz you can have total control over the characters and freely move around the places. That has nothing to do with any switches.

What do you mean? I know a Real Time RPG doesn't HAVE to be Advent Children like. But many that are coming out are. It's a new style they are going with. Dissidia, Advent Children, Kingdom Hearts... They all share that style of fighting.

NemeBro
Originally posted by TacDavey
They are Advent Children fights because they were made to look and feel like Advent Children fights. It's unmistakable. Not one of the characters from Dissidia could do what they do in their original games. And Cloud couldn't do what he did in Advent Children originally. They decided to screw what was realistic and go solely on what looks cool. Again, they said so themselves. That's just the style they used. Zidane comes along on the ride just like everyone else. We can see this new battle style being applied to more than just FF7.



"Most people in the world can't beat Mike Tyson, thus this guy probably can't"

Is a MUCH different argument than

"This guy hasn't shown that he can beat Mike Tyson, thus he can't."

You were applying the second argument when you said the FF9 party hasn't shown themselves to be stronger than Cloud. The second one is a fallacy. Thus, your argument was fallacious.

Now you changed it to: The FF9 party hasn't shown they can beat Cloud, thus they probably can't? Which is still flawed reasoning. You need reasons other than "They haven't shown it" to be able to conclude something like that. Tell me WHY the FF9 party seems inferior to Cloud, and I don't want your evidence to be: "They've never shown themselves special."



Again, you missed the point. Defeating an army of Alexandrian soldiers single handedly means the same thing in both worlds.

I said SMALL army. 100 soldiers isn't a scouting party.



That makes no sense. Where did you read that? And anyway, they still defeated Necron. 1. So style over substance then? Because aesthetically they look like Advent Children fights, they must be able to do exactly what the Advent Children characters can do? Cloud did not do what he did in AC in his original game because... Oh yeah, because of the limitations of the game's tech. You might have an argument, albeit an incredibly idiotic one, if it were only in AC that they performed such feats... Except in Crisis Core we see many of the same feats and in Dirge of Cerberus we see even better feats. Also, we saw similar feats from Zack in Last Order. The feats of AC are very much a canon part of the series... Oh, and in case you still have not figured it out, I was never talking about t3h soopa kewl flipz and shitz present in AC, but feats like cutting sections of building in half or easily deflecting bullets? Those still stand. Facts are, the speed and strength Cloud displayed in AC was never disputed in anything FFVII related after that.

2. I noticed that you never actually gave me your reasoning for why you think Cloud would beat Beatrix, despite me asking you.

Committing a single fallacy does not discredit your entire argument, something you seem blissfully unaware of.

Tell me what "other reasons" I should factor in then?

Stop avoiding this question.

3. ... How? Considering... Alexandrian soldiers do not exist in FFVII. no expression Defeating a small army of SOLDIER from FFVII is far more impressive than the Alexandrians though, this is undeniable.

You did not say "small army" in the post I quoted. smile

4. I watched the video of when he did it. It was a suicide attack, noting how he was going to take the party with him. Also, he know for a fact he does not have to direct Ultima at himself, he did with that one. Using Necron now? Oh you're right, it is quite obvious that the FFIX party are universal, how could I have been so blind?

FF bosses are nearly always beaten by PIS faggotry, Neo Exdeath, Cloud of Darkness, God Kefka, and Sephiroth in AC being a few examples.

TacDavey
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. So style over substance then? Because aesthetically they look like Advent Children fights, they must be able to do exactly what the Advent Children characters can do? Cloud did not do what he did in AC in his original game because... Oh yeah, because of the limitations of the game's tech. You might have an argument, albeit an incredibly idiotic one, if it were only in AC that they performed such feats... Except in Crisis Core we see many of the same feats and in Dirge of Cerberus we see even better feats. Also, we saw similar feats from Zack in Last Order. The feats of AC are very much a canon part of the series... Oh, and in case you still have not figured it out, I was never talking about t3h soopa kewl flipz and shitz present in AC, but feats like cutting sections of building in half or easily deflecting bullets? Those still stand. Facts are, the speed and strength Cloud displayed in AC was never disputed in anything FFVII related after that.

2. I noticed that you never actually gave me your reasoning for why you think Cloud would beat Beatrix, despite me asking you.

Committing a single fallacy does not discredit your entire argument, something you seem blissfully unaware of.

Tell me what "other reasons" I should factor in then?

Stop avoiding this question.

3. ... How? Considering... Alexandrian soldiers do not exist in FFVII. no expression Defeating a small army of SOLDIER from FFVII is far more impressive than the Alexandrians though, this is undeniable.

You did not say "small army" in the post I quoted. smile

4. I watched the video of when he did it. It was a suicide attack, noting how he was going to take the party with him. Also, he know for a fact he does not have to direct Ultima at himself, he did with that one. Using Necron now? Oh you're right, it is quite obvious that the FFIX party are universal, how could I have been so blind?

FF bosses are nearly always beaten by PIS faggotry, Neo Exdeath, Cloud of Darkness, God Kefka, and Sephiroth in AC being a few examples.

1. Have you not been reading the posts up until this point? Either what you say is true, and past FF games were always meant to have AC like battles, which I find highly unlikely, or this is a new battle style just being presented in the recent games coming out. Either way, it cannot be used to show Cloud's dominance over the other FF characters, as this new battle style is being applied to them as well. Look at Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia. This isn't an FF7 exclusive change.

2. I used to think Cloud could beat Beatrix, now I'm not so sure...

Committing a single fallacy doesn't discredit your argument? Uh... Yes it most certainly does. It doesn't show that your conclusion is incorrect, but it DOES show that the line of reasoning you used to arrive at that conclusion is flawed, and as such cannot be used to defend your conclusion. Come up with a non-fallacious argument or your conclusion holds no weight whatsoever.

3. I understand that. Again, not the point. If Alexandrian soldiers DID exist in FF7, they would be just as strong as they were in FF9. The jump between games does not change a characters strength.

4. Ah yes. PIS. How do we know ANY feats, then? If PIS can just be brought into play for anything? Maybe Zack fighting off those soldiers was just PIS. Maybe neither him, nor Cloud can really do that.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
What do you mean? I know a Real Time RPG doesn't HAVE to be Advent Children like. But many that are coming out are. It's a new style they are going with. Dissidia, Advent Children, Kingdom Hearts... They all share that style of fighting.

New style? WHICH style? ELABORATE. What makes you think everything shares the SAME style of fighting? Just because characters can do high jumps? For Square-Enix, Advent Children wasn't any motive to have changed the "style" of their games and future works, you sir is not any authority to decide what you can use or not nor what is valid on their projects. By that logic I couldn't support Zack's capabilities since it's a "new style" of animations and it was made to look "cool", nothing in Crisis Core is "realistic", therefore my argument would be invalid, everything Zack does there is just to look "cool", we can't take them as facts, he can't do all of that cuz that is not "realistic", so I can't use it since it's the brand new "style".

Advent Children is a movie, not a game. Kingdom Hearts came before Advent Children and has nothing to do with it. Dissidia just shares the same new CG animations, textures and style of the characters' animations, that are also in the level of the remakes of Final Fantasy IV and Final Fantasy III, all of them shares the new technology, that's all. As how they created the battles in them individually, it can differ completely from each other, so I can't judge without using a bit of logic, you drawn your conclusions too quick, I respectfully disagree. I know you base your whole argument on: "Hey! They couldn't do that in the original game! Therefore they can't now!" But you do NOT know with 100% certainty if they couldn't. We can use a bit of common sense to logically decide if they really couldn't, as you know there are big differences in technology and there big differences between Turn-Based RPGs and Real-Time RPGs. As for the games that are coming out, the only one that was going to be made/feel like Advent Children is Final Fantasy Versus XIII because the creators and developers have stated it in interviews, they want to recreate those fights, and by "recreate", they meant that they want EVERYTHING to be like Advent Children.

TheAuraAngel
What has Beatrix done that puts her on Cloud's level? Without any use of retarded A>B>C logic here, what are her feats?

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
New style? WHICH style? ELABORATE. What makes you think everything shares the SAME style of fighting? Just because characters can do high jumps? For Square-Enix, Advent Children wasn't any motive to have changed the "style" of their games and future works, you sir is not any authority to decide what you can use or not nor what is valid on their projects. By that logic I couldn't support Zack's capabilities since it's a "new style" of animations and it was made to look "cool", nothing in Crisis Core is "realistic", therefore my argument would be invalid, everything Zack does there is just to look "cool", we can't take them as facts, he can't do all of that cuz that is not "realistic", so I can't use it since it's the brand new "style".

Advent Children is a movie, not a game. Kingdom Hearts came before Advent Children and has nothing to do with it. Dissidia just shares the same new CG animations, textures and style of the characters' animations, that are also in the level of the remakes of Final Fantasy IV and Final Fantasy III, all of them shares the new technology, that's all. As how they created the battles in them individually, it can differ completely from each other, so I can't judge without using a bit of logic, you drawn your conclusions too quick, I respectfully disagree. I know you base your whole argument on: "Hey! They couldn't do that in the original game! Therefore they can't now!" But you do NOT know with 100% certainty if they couldn't. We can use a bit of common sense to logically decide if they really couldn't, as you know there are big differences in technology and there big differences between Turn-Based RPGs and Real-Time RPGs. As for the games that are coming out, the only one that was going to be made/feel like Advent Children is Final Fantasy Versus XIII because the creators and developers have stated it in interviews, they want to recreate those fights, and by "recreate", they meant that they want EVERYTHING to be like Advent Children.

By style I mean exactly what they were talking about in that quote you yourself gave me. The over exaggerated, sky scrapper leaping Dragon Ball Z like fighting. That's a type of style, you do realize that, right? It's the same style they use in Advent Children and it's the same style they use in Kingdom Hearts. It's new.

Now, either they COULD do those things originally and they just didn't because the developers didn't show it somehow (regardless of the fact that they had the opportunity), or this is a change in Battle style that is just now being adopted and applied to the various games coming out. Either way, the argument of "Look what Cloud does in Advent Children. The other FF people can't do that!" Does NOT apply, and is not valid.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
What has Beatrix done that puts her on Cloud's level? Without any use of retarded A>B>C logic here, what are her feats?

We've been discussing that. What IS Cloud's level exactly?

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by TacDavey
We've been discussing that. What IS Cloud's level exactly?

Even if you convince them that Dissidia and what not affects all the cast members, it still doesn't give Beatrix a feat to work with. Even in the original game, Cloud has shown more as far as I'm concerned.

TacDavey
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Even if you convince them that Dissidia and what not affects all the cast members, it still doesn't give Beatrix a feat to work with. Even in the original game, Cloud has shown more as far as I'm concerned.

I wouldn't be so sure. You would first have to argue that Cloud is stronger than Zidane. If you managed to do that, you would then have to argue that Cloud is stronger than Zidane and three other team members. And if you managed to do that, you would only be placing Cloud on the same level as Beatrix.

I'm not convinced Cloud is stronger than Zidane, let alone Zidane and his team.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by TacDavey
I wouldn't be so sure. You would first have to argue that Cloud is stronger than Zidane. If you managed to do that, you would then have to argue that Cloud is stronger than Zidane and three other team members. And if you managed to do that, you would only be placing Cloud on the same level as Beatrix.

I'm not convinced Cloud is stronger than Zidane, let alone Zidane and his team.

Which is where feats come in handy. Not beaten FF9 but by the point in the game where Beatrix pwns the party, they've done nothing impressive. Not that they don't do impressive things later on, haven't beaten the game so I'm not sure whether they do or not. Still, yeah if she or the party she has beaten have no feats, she is weaker than Cloud.

TacDavey
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Which is where feats come in handy. Not beaten FF9 but by the point in the game where Beatrix pwns the party, they've done nothing impressive. Not that they don't do impressive things later on, haven't beaten the game so I'm not sure whether they do or not. Still, yeah if she or the party she has beaten have no feats, she is weaker than Cloud.

Oh hell. Not the feats nonsense again. Another "Argument from Ignorance" fallacy. Is this a common thing on KMC forums?

If you've been reading the posts up until now, you'd know that the "weaker without feats" argument has already been refuted. It's a fallacy.

As for the FF9 parties strength, they are stronger than Kuja, who takes blasts from Bahamut, one of the strongest summon spirits, and only gets a tiny scratch. Bahamut levels cities by the way.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by TacDavey
Oh hell. Not the feats nonsense again. Another "Argument from Ignorance" fallacy. Is this a common thing on KMC forums?

If you've been reading the posts up until now, you'd know that the "weaker without feats" argument has already been refuted. It's a fallacy.

As for the FF9 parties strength, they are stronger than Kuja, who takes blasts from Bahamut, one of the strongest summon spirits, and only gets a tiny scratch. Bahamut levels cities by the way.

So what you're telling me is there is no evidence for Beatrix being stronger? Cause that's all I'm asking for. A cutscene. Maybe she cuts through a stone wall or something. Anything. At least something that proves she is stronger.

That was after they battle Beatrix if I recall correctly. And again, that is poor A>B>C logic. It's like if I were to say, Charmander could kill Squirtle with ease because he can beat Bulbasaur with ease, who in turn could beat Squirtle with ease.

Also, Cloud fought Bahamut too, so actually he is right at Kuja's level by your logic huh?

TacDavey
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So what you're telling me is there is no evidence for Beatrix being stronger? Cause that's all I'm asking for. A cutscene. Maybe she cuts through a stone wall or something. Anything. At least something that proves she is stronger.

That was after they battle Beatrix if I recall correctly. And again, that is poor A>B>C logic. It's like if I were to say, Charmander could kill Squirtle with ease because he can beat Bulbasaur with ease, who in turn could beat Squirtle with ease.

Also, Cloud fought Bahamut too, so actually he is right at Kuja's level by your logic huh?

No, she never cuts through a wall or anything. But that isn't necessarily required to know someone would beat someone else. I gave the example earlier, of a being who could think things into existence, and was basically known to be the absolute most powerful being alive. Yet never ended up having a scene showing these abilities. That does not mean it is more logical to assume Cloud would defeat him simply because we see Cloud slice through building chunks.

That's not quite the same thing. In the pokemon example, each character is about the same strength, yet has something specially designed to defeat the others. The same cannot be said of the FF characters, however. These fights are dealing only with the characters strength.

No, it isn't the same thing. For one thing, the two Bahamuts where not the same, and for another thing, Cloud did not take a blast from Bahamut and shrug it off like it was nothing.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by TacDavey
No, she never cuts through a wall or anything. But that isn't necessarily required to know someone would beat someone else. I gave the example earlier, of a being who could think things into existence, and was basically known to be the absolute most powerful being alive. Yet never ended up having a scene showing these abilities. That does not mean it is more logical to assume Cloud would defeat him simply because we see Cloud slice through building chunks.

That's not quite the same thing. In the pokemon example, each character is about the same strength, yet has something specially designed to defeat the others. The same cannot be said of the FF characters, however. These fights are dealing only with the characters strength.

No, it isn't the same thing. For one thing, the two Bahamuts where not the same, and for another thing, Cloud did not take a blast from Bahamut and shrug it off like it was nothing.

Good. But Beatrix is not so lucky as to have such a description. An elite solider pretty much can be used to describe either Cloud or Beatrix now couldn't it? In this regard, what else could you do but go by feats? What is the other option I'm missing?

Actually, can be said for Pokemon. And here is why. A Charmander can defeat a Squirtle with ease if it is at a high enough level. When the party fights Beatrix it's early on in the game and Kuja's battle doesn't happen until later. It seems silly that you think Beatrix is stronger than a planet buster to me, which is what it sounds like you're insinuating.

So why should I assume the FF9 Bahamut is stronger? Again, I'd need feats to judge it. And yes he did. Remember the scene where he goes through the mega-flare and kills Bahamut? confused

Pyron_Knight
Once Beatrix takes off her eyepatch she'll be releasing 100% of her spiritual powr. She'll start cutting buildings in half just by waving her sword at them.

TacDavey
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Good. But Beatrix is not so lucky as to have such a description. An elite solider pretty much can be used to describe either Cloud or Beatrix now couldn't it? In this regard, what else could you do but go by feats? What is the other option I'm missing?

Beatrix isn't that obvious, but the point was that feats are not always necessary. So to base your conclusion off of nothing more than a lack of something that isn't necessary is illogical. You need a better reason than that.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Actually, can be said for Pokemon. And here is why. A Charmander can defeat a Squirtle with ease if it is at a high enough level. When the party fights Beatrix it's early on in the game and Kuja's battle doesn't happen until later. It seems silly that you think Beatrix is stronger than a planet buster to me, which is what it sounds like you're insinuating.

No, I'm not saying she is stronger than Trance Kuja. It is unclear how she compares to normal Kuja, however, the repeated defeat of the team along with her reputation as practically the most feared swordsman in the world is evidence to support her being more powerful. The team fights Beatrix multiple times throughout the game. Not just at the beginning. And each time she wins seemingly without breaking a sweat.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So why should I assume the FF9 Bahamut is stronger? Again, I'd need feats to judge it. And yes he did. Remember the scene where he goes through the mega-flare and kills Bahamut? confused

I'm not saying you should consider the FF9 Bahamut more powerful. But you used a different monster to try and make a comparison between the two, and just because they have the same name, does not make them the same. The two are obviously different.

Cloud wasn't simply taking that blast, he was in the middle of whatever limit break he was doing at the time. Climmhazard I think someone said it was. He was slashing through the blast, not simply taking the hit.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by TacDavey
Beatrix isn't that obvious, but the point was that feats are not always necessary. So to base your conclusion off of nothing more than a lack of something that isn't necessary is illogical. You need a better reason than that.



No, I'm not saying she is stronger than Trance Kuja. It is unclear how she compares to normal Kuja, however, the repeated defeat of the team along with her reputation as practically the most feared swordsman in the world is evidence to support her being more powerful. The team fights Beatrix multiple times throughout the game. Not just at the beginning. And each time she wins seemingly without breaking a sweat.



I'm not saying you should consider the FF9 Bahamut more powerful. But you used a different monster to try and make a comparison between the two, and just because they have the same name, does not make them the same. The two are obviously different.

Cloud wasn't simply taking that blast, he was in the middle of whatever limit break he was doing at the time. Climmhazard I think someone said it was. He was slashing through the blast, not simply taking the hit.

So what should I base it off of? Beatrix is hailed as a great warrior. I understand that. But Cloud, because he is the main character of his game and goes through saving the world has a better rep to him than she does. What other means do I have to decide who is stronger between the two besides using feats? There is a difference between saying someone like Cloud vs freaking Arceus. Arceus we don't see do anything in the game but we know his feats from the pokedex. We don't see it but we know 100% he'd so much as want Cloud dead and it would happen. Here, I see no other way to go except using feats

Once at the end of disc 1, twice in disk 2 early on. Unless you fight her in disk 3 or 4, the party should logically be far stronger when facing Kuja. And again, I need feats to gauge the FF9 party's power. I can't just assume anything for the time being.

You still have to account for the heat of the blast and the fact that his sword could even cut through it. And I don't think it was Climmhazard. Doesn't look like it anyway. Not sure what it was.

TacDavey
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So what should I base it off of? Beatrix is hailed as a great warrior. I understand that. But Cloud, because he is the main character of his game and goes through saving the world has a better rep to him than she does. What other means do I have to decide who is stronger between the two besides using feats? There is a difference between saying someone like Cloud vs freaking Arceus. Arceus we don't see do anything in the game but we know his feats from the pokedex. We don't see it but we know 100% he'd so much as want Cloud dead and it would happen. Here, I see no other way to go except using feats

I don't know who Arceus is, but a similar form of logic can be applied. Take what we know Beatrix is capable of and what Cloud is capable of. What do we know about both of them?

Beatrix is the strongest swordsman in FF9, as far as we know. She never ends up loosing a fight, so we have no stronger character reference to go off of, thought it is logical to assume Trance Kuja would beat her. She demonstrates not only an amazing skill with the sword, but with magic too, as she breaks the spell placed on Dagger by the two mage clowns, who claimed it was "unbreakable". She took out a squad of 100 soldiers single handed and is the top general, and most trusted warrior, of the female army of Alexandria.

What do we know about Cloud? Cloud is a genetically enhanced super human. His physical abilities are enhanced thanks to Jenova cells, though it isn't clear just how much he is enhanced. He is one of the strongest fighters seen in the FF7 world, though he still takes a backseat to Sephiroth.

So look at that info, and decide who you think would win in a fight. or you could say, I don't know. I'm not necessarily gunning for Beatrix, but I don't find the "stronger because of lack of feats" argument valid at all.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Once at the end of disc 1, twice in disk 2 early on. Unless you fight her in disk 3 or 4, the party should logically be far stronger when facing Kuja. And again, I need feats to gauge the FF9 party's power. I can't just assume anything for the time being.

You might be right. But you still are assuming that the party is stronger, and you are assuming Beatrix's strength stays the same.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
You still have to account for the heat of the blast and the fact that his sword could even cut through it. And I don't think it was Climmhazard. Doesn't look like it anyway. Not sure what it was.

But again, Cloud is using an attack to break through Mega Flare, not just sticking out his chest and laughing.

I heard it was Climmhazard because he was running up Bahamuts back with his sword in him kinda like the attack in FF7. Either way, not really relevant.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by TacDavey
I don't know who Arceus is, but a similar form of logic can be applied. Take what we know Beatrix is capable of and what Cloud is capable of. What do we know about both of them?

Beatrix is the strongest swordsman in FF9, as far as we know. She never ends up loosing a fight, so we have no stronger character reference to go off of, thought it is logical to assume Trance Kuja would beat her. She demonstrates not only an amazing skill with the sword, but with magic too, as she breaks the spell placed on Dagger by the two mage clowns, who claimed it was "unbreakable". She took out a squad of 100 soldiers single handed and is the top general, and most trusted warrior, of the female army of Alexandria.

What do we know about Cloud? Cloud is a genetically enhanced super human. His physical abilities are enhanced thanks to Jenova cells, though it isn't clear just how much he is enhanced. He is one of the strongest fighters seen in the FF7 world, though he still takes a backseat to Sephiroth.

So look at that info, and decide who you think would win in a fight. or you could say, I don't know. I'm not necessarily gunning for Beatrix, but I don't find the "stronger because of lack of feats" argument valid at all.



You might be right. But you still are assuming that the party is stronger, and you are assuming Beatrix's strength stays the same.



But again, Cloud is using an attack to break through Mega Flare, not just sticking out his chest and laughing.

I heard it was Climmhazard because he was running up Bahamuts back with his sword in him kinda like the attack in FF7. Either way, not really relevant.

Cloud is more than just someone genetically enhanced. He lead his team around the world, fighting more monsters along the way than Beatrix could imagine. He has fought ancient beings made from the planet itself, advanced Shinra machinery, and not only led his team into battle with Sephiroth at the end of FF7 but also fought all of his reincarnates in Advent Children, topping it all off by battling the main guy himself one on one. Also, during the course of the game, he shows more physical strength than Beatrix ever did.

Of course I assume they get stronger. They have to get stronger. Beatrix doesn't really do much after Kuja attacked Alexandria. Not that I know of anyway. Which is still irrelevant because I don't think much of the FF9 party as they again, don't do much.

And I honestly don't know why exactly the Kuja feat was brought up to begin with. His durability doesn't equal Beatrix so its not like she could take the blast either. And like it or not, Cloud was in that blast. And if he didn't take any damage because of his attack, it just adds a lot to Cloud's strength.

TacDavey
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Cloud is more than just someone genetically enhanced. He lead his team around the world, fighting more monsters along the way than Beatrix could imagine. He has fought ancient beings made from the planet itself, advanced Shinra machinery, and not only led his team into battle with Sephiroth at the end of FF7 but also fought all of his reincarnates in Advent Children, topping it all off by battling the main guy himself one on one. Also, during the course of the game, he shows more physical strength than Beatrix ever did.

Wow, you are assuming a lot here with no evidence to support it. Cloud has fought tougher monsters than Beatrix? Back that one up. I want to here your evidence there. Might I remind you that fighting monsters is pretty common place in FF universes?

Cloud never Cannonly defeated the weapons. Those were side monsters. The one he DID fight cannon wise was more than a match for him. You also forget that while Cloud did fight Sephiroth one on one, he was never at any point stronger than Sephiroth. Sephiroth was playing with him.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Of course I assume they get stronger. They have to get stronger. Beatrix doesn't really do much after Kuja attacked Alexandria. Not that I know of anyway. Which is still irrelevant because I don't think much of the FF9 party as they again, don't do much.

I don't know what you mean by "they don't do much." They defeated Trance Kuja, who turns worlds to dust. That's pretty flipping impressive. All of their accomplishments throughout the coarse of the game are all them doing stuff.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And I honestly don't know why exactly the Kuja feat was brought up to begin with. His durability doesn't equal Beatrix so its not like she could take the blast either. And like it or not, Cloud was in that blast. And if he didn't take any damage because of his attack, it just adds a lot to Cloud's strength.

His durability is a good example of just how powerful he is. He didn't take that hit because he has diamond skin, he took it because he's extremely powerful. So anyone stronger than him, or even on his level, would have to be pretty powerful.

Let me ask you this. Would it be the same to block a sword slash as it would to take a sword slash to the chest? No. Cloud was counter attacking. Kuja was taking the hit. It is NOT the same thing.

Here's another example. Which is more impressive? Goku blocking a energy beam with another energy beam, or taking the hit and coming out completely unfazed?

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by TacDavey
Wow, you are assuming a lot here with no evidence to support it. Cloud has fought tougher monsters than Beatrix? Back that one up. I want to here your evidence there. Might I remind you that fighting monsters is pretty common place in FF universes?

Cloud never Cannonly defeated the weapons. Those were side monsters. The one he DID fight cannon wise was more than a match for him. You also forget that while Cloud did fight Sephiroth one on one, he was never at any point stronger than Sephiroth. Sephiroth was playing with him.



I don't know what you mean by "they don't do much." They defeated Trance Kuja, who turns worlds to dust. That's pretty flipping impressive. All of their accomplishments throughout the coarse of the game are all them doing stuff.



His durability is a good example of just how powerful he is. He didn't take that hit because he has diamond skin, he took it because he's extremely powerful. So anyone stronger than him, or even on his level, would have to be pretty powerful.

Let me ask you this. Would it be the same to block a sword slash as it would to take a sword slash to the chest? No. Cloud was counter attacking. Kuja was taking the hit. It is NOT the same thing.

Here's another example. Which is more impressive? Goku blocking a energy beam with another energy beam, or taking the hit and coming out completely unfazed?

I've played the game. That's my evidence. He fights monsters all the time in his games. And he fights high tech machinery. He cuts through steel. Doesn't matter. That one WEAPON> anything I've ever heard from Beatrix. The reason I doubt Beatrix has fought any monsters like Cloud has is, a) because we never see her doing so and b) why would she? She is supposed to be general to Alexandria. She doesn't go out fighting monsters whenever she pleases. She has to do her job.

Keeping up with Sephiroth, toying with Cloud though he may have been, trumps anything I've seen or heard from Beatrix. If you want to tell me something she actually does that is impressive, you're welcome to do so.

According to NemeBro, Kuja hits them with Ultima and forces them to fight Necron, who from what I can gather, is death. Big deal? If you can say that they are strong for defeating Kuja and thus Beatrix is strong for defeating them, it opens up a lot of stupid points that could be made. Like the stupid Dark Elf from FF4. You lose to him in the script until someone helps the party from a castle miles away, so he must be stronger than Golbez huh?

Not technically. You can be super weak and still take a hit. There are different factors for a fight. It isn't all just pure power. Besides, obviously Kuja in that scene isn't too impressive seeing as how that ship popped outta nowhere and took control of Bahamut for him. He does nothing except take a hit, which honestly was a very spread hit to begin with. And he still duck away from the blast.

It's more comparable to Goku dropping the spirit bomb on somebody and then that person fighting their way out of it.

Cloud in his one Bahamut scene does more impressive things than Beatrix. And unless you can show me something that SHE, not the party and not Kuja, does, then I'm done with this thread for the most part.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
By style I mean exactly what they were talking about in that quote you yourself gave me. The over exaggerated, sky scrapper leaping Dragon Ball Z like fighting. That's a type of style, you do realize that, right? It's the same style they use in Advent Children and it's the same style they use in Kingdom Hearts. It's new.

Lmao? They were talking about the MOVIE, nothing more. That's why I ask from where you drawn the conclusion that they were ALSO making references about all of their games and future works, I didn't see that part. Dragon Ball Z-like fighting? Are you joking? I'd say they look like Matrix fights. What part of Kingdom Hearts came BEFORE Advent Children you do not understand? You think because I brought it up you can use it as defense? What part of Turn-Based RPG games and Real-Time RPGs are completely different you do not understand? That's any type of style, each games have their own style.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Now, either they COULD do those things originally and they just didn't because the developers didn't show it somehow (regardless of the fact that they had the opportunity), or this is a change in Battle style that is just now being adopted and applied to the various games coming out. Either way, the argument of "Look what Cloud does in Advent Children. The other FF people can't do that!" Does NOT apply, and is not valid.

First off, I'm not basing any argument in Cloud's favor nor using Advent Children, got it...? Neither to show his "superiority" over other FF characters. I don't need to do that, I don't need the "feats" reasoning, after all... the "winner" is always the one with more amount of abilities. You don't need to see something on screen to know something. But despite that I agree about this, Cloud did a lot of things in the movie, things you can't take away because they are facts and they are pretty much in the script...

I'm simply saying that new technology has a LOT to do here and it's UNDENIABLE. Other FF characters can probably do what Cloud does in Advent Children, OBVIOUSLY that a lot of them could and even MORE. It's just technology's limitations, the developers couldn't show their characters doing this before, even if you say "yep they could!". Dissidia may not be canon, I don't know... But it shows a lot of feats the characters couldn't show before, there are a lot of FF games and they were even in 2-D animation. And we don't really know how they performs in their battles, so I'd say Dissidia is a good representation of the characters abilities in live motion.

And Cloud being genetically enhanced as you many times claimed in the past, does not puts him some levels above Beatrix? 'Cuz if your only argument for Beatrix is that she defeated some weak soldiers, what is stopping Cloud for not blowing them away with his First Tsurugi and super-strength/speed/durability? no expression Some Black Mages could, they are pretty much feared in that world, and Cloud would defeat many of those Black Mages.

TacDavey
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I've played the game. That's my evidence. He fights monsters all the time in his games. And he fights high tech machinery. He cuts through steel. Doesn't matter. That one WEAPON> anything I've ever heard from Beatrix. The reason I doubt Beatrix has fought any monsters like Cloud has is, a) because we never see her doing so and b) why would she? She is supposed to be general to Alexandria. She doesn't go out fighting monsters whenever she pleases. She has to do her job.

And what IS her job? Protecting Alexandria. She leads battles, she's head of the Army! Also, your point with the WEAPON is useless since Cloud didn't beat it. He didn't even come close to beating it.

Like I said, fighting monsters is common place in FF games. Even the lowest soldier does it. It's really no big deal.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Keeping up with Sephiroth, toying with Cloud though he may have been, trumps anything I've seen or heard from Beatrix. If you want to tell me something she actually does that is impressive, you're welcome to do so.

Keeping up with Sephiroth when he is purposely holding back to give you a chance is not a very impressive feat. Not impressive enough to place one character over the next. Cloud was putting his all into that fight. Sephiroth wasn't even pushing himself at all. By the sound of it, Cloud is no where near Sephiroths abilities.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
According to NemeBro, Kuja hits them with Ultima and forces them to fight Necron, who from what I can gather, is death. Big deal? If you can say that they are strong for defeating Kuja and thus Beatrix is strong for defeating them, it opens up a lot of stupid points that could be made. Like the stupid Dark Elf from FF4. You lose to him in the script until someone helps the party from a castle miles away, so he must be stronger than Golbez huh?

Necron has the power to basically end all life in the universe. I'd say that's a pretty big deal indeed. A rather large deal if you ask me.

I don't know anything about FF4, I haven't played it. But if that elf was defeating them, and had to be dealt with by other means, I'd say it sounds like the elf is stronger. If you notice, I admitted I don't think Beatrix is stronger than Trance Kuja, but she is likely stronger than normal Kuja.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Not technically. You can be super weak and still take a hit. There are different factors for a fight. It isn't all just pure power. Besides, obviously Kuja in that scene isn't too impressive seeing as how that ship popped outta nowhere and took control of Bahamut for him. He does nothing except take a hit, which honestly was a very spread hit to begin with. And he still duck away from the blast.

He took a direct blast from one of the most powerful summon spirits in the game. And all he does is shrug and go, "Hmm, Bahamut, you managed to hurt me, a little. You really are powerful." As if it were nothing.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It's more comparable to Goku dropping the spirit bomb on somebody and then that person fighting their way out of it.

With another attack. It's attack against attack. Cloud didn't take ther hit. I'm sorry, it just didn't happen. He blocked/counter attacked with another attack.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Cloud in his one Bahamut scene does more impressive things than Beatrix. And unless you can show me something that SHE, not the party and not Kuja, does, then I'm done with this thread for the most part.

Beatrix doesn't get very much face time in FF9. But again, I've already shown that you don't need to see someone perform to know they are powerful. You can use other evidence, not the least of which is who they have defeated. If A>B and B>C then A>C. If you are still completely hung up on denying all evidence except feats, then yes. It seems you are done with this thread.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Lmao? They were talking about the MOVIE, nothing more. That's why I ask from where you drawn the conclusion that they were ALSO making references about all of their games and future works, I didn't see that part. Dragon Ball Z-like fighting? Are you joking? I'd say they look like Matrix fights. What part of Kingdom Hearts came BEFORE Advent Children you do not understand? You think because I brought it up you can use it as defense? What part of Turn-Based RPG games and Real-Time RPGs are completely different you do not understand? That's any type of style, each games have their own style.



First off, I'm not basing any argument in Cloud's favor nor using Advent Children, got it...? Neither to show his "superiority" over other FF characters. I don't need to do that, I don't need the "feats" reasoning, after all... the "winner" is always the one with more amount of abilities. You don't need to see something on screen to know something. But despite that I agree about this, Cloud did a lot of things in the movie, things you can't take away because they are facts and they are pretty much in the script...

I'm simply saying that new technology has a LOT to do here and it's UNDENIABLE. Other FF characters can probably do what Cloud does in Advent Children, OBVIOUSLY that a lot of them could and even MORE. It's just technology's limitations, the developers couldn't show their characters doing this before, even if you say "yep they could!". Dissidia may not be canon, I don't know... But it shows a lot of feats the characters couldn't show before, there are a lot of FF games and they were even in 2-D animation. And we don't really know how they performs in their battles, so I'd say Dissidia is a good representation of the characters abilities in live motion.

And Cloud being genetically enhanced as you many times claimed in the past, does not puts him some levels above Beatrix? 'Cuz if your only argument for Beatrix is that she defeated some weak soldiers, what is stopping Cloud for not blowing them away with his First Tsurugi and super-strength/speed/durability? no expression Some Black Mages could, they are pretty much feared in that world, and Cloud would defeat many of those Black Mages.

Good. I'm glad you don't hold to the "if it doesn't come up on screen it cannot be used" nonsensical rubbish.

It seems we are in agreement with Advent Children.

It's more than that she fought some soldiers. Both Cloud and Beatrix are the top (well, Cloud isn't technically, but close) swordsman of their respective worlds. Beatrix is apparently a prodigy with the blade, as well as being quite powerful magic wise. She's the head of one of the, if not THE, strongest army in the world. Like I said, being super human does not mean it's impossible for humans to defeat you.

I'm not sure who would win really. They are both powerful warriors and I don't think it is as easy to tell as many are making it out to be. And I certainly deny the "Cloud wins because of lack of feats" argument.

On an end note. Zidane defeated many Black Mages too, but he still lost completely and totally to Beatrix.

GrieverSquall
Tac, sorry for my delay, I don't have much time for debates, but I'll try to post more often.

Here's my reply. I think Cloud would win by the way.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Good. I'm glad you don't hold to the "if it doesn't come up on screen it cannot be used" nonsensical rubbish.

It seems we are in agreement with Advent Children.

It's more than that she fought some soldiers. Both Cloud and Beatrix are the top (well, Cloud isn't technically, but close) swordsman of their respective worlds. Beatrix is apparently a prodigy with the blade, as well as being quite powerful magic wise. She's the head of one of the, if not THE, strongest army in the world. Like I said, being super human does not mean it's impossible for humans to defeat you.

I'm not sure who would win really. They are both powerful warriors and I don't think it is as easy to tell as many are making it out to be. And I certainly deny the "Cloud wins because of lack of feats" argument.

On an end note. Zidane defeated many Black Mages too, but he still lost completely and totally to Beatrix.

Cloud would beat those soldiers as well. At this rate, even Steiner would fight and defeat many of those soldiers by himself, if not all of them. Let's take into account that the soldiers from the Final Fantasy Universe aren't the same in every universe and these from IX are rather weak compared to others. What kind of soldiers she fought, actually...? And from where? I don't think Beatrix would be a big deal for Cloud, really. She may be strong magic-wise, but no as strong as Sephiroth was, not even near. Besides, she can't attack with Magic, can she? She leads an army, but what makes you think is the possible strongest army in the world? Wasn't Sephiroth the most powerful and strongest in SOLDIER? That's more than comparable. Those soldiers from IX are garbage compared to SOLDIERS, they are at least, comparable to Shinra infantry, if not weaker. Obviously Cloud isn't as strong as Sephiroth is/was, but he fought pretty much the best of the best from his world, let's recall. Being genetically enhanced makes him faster and stronger than regular humans. I highly believe Cloud > Zack now, however, if Zack could have lived then Zack > Cloud. Beatrix wouldn't endure a fight against Cloud, she was getting kind of... tired or something in Alexandria while fighting monsters alongside Steiner, she wanted to return to the castle. Cloud could use Magic through Materia (if he is allowed). Cloud has fought many more threats through his story than Beatrix, some average soldiers aren't comparable to a WEAPON nor to entities such as Jenova SYNTHESIS whose would blow cities in a blink of an eye.

Zidane did it with his team. Flatley (Freya's boyfriend or whatever he is) defeated some Black Mages by himself and with a single slash from his spear (In Cleyra), so even him was more skilled than Zidane at that point, it seems. Cloud is obviously stronger than that Burmecian by a long shot. Besides, Black Mages seems to be slow as hell. They are fat, short and they don't have signs of agility nor strength, Cloud would rape them badly, and they will like it.

NemeBro
Holy crap I forgot all about this thread.

Will make another post soon.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Tac, sorry for my delay, I don't have much time for debates, but I'll try to post more often.

Here's my reply. I think Cloud would win by the way.



Cloud would beat those soldiers as well. At this rate, even Steiner would fight and defeat many of those soldiers by himself, if not all of them. Let's take into account that the soldiers from the Final Fantasy Universe aren't the same in every universe and these from IX are rather weak compared to others. What kind of soldiers she fought, actually...? And from where? I don't think Beatrix would be a big deal for Cloud, really. She may be strong magic-wise, but no as strong as Sephiroth was, not even near. Besides, she can't attack with Magic, can she? She leads an army, but what makes you think is the possible strongest army in the world? Wasn't Sephiroth the most powerful and strongest in SOLDIER? That's more than comparable. Those soldiers from IX are garbage compared to SOLDIERS, they are at least, comparable to Shinra infantry, if not weaker. Obviously Cloud isn't as strong as Sephiroth is/was, but he fought pretty much the best of the best from his world, let's recall. Being genetically enhanced makes him faster and stronger than regular humans. I highly believe Cloud > Zack now, however, if Zack could have lived then Zack > Cloud. Beatrix wouldn't endure a fight against Cloud, she was getting kind of... tired or something in Alexandria while fighting monsters alongside Steiner, she wanted to return to the castle. Cloud could use Magic through Materia (if he is allowed). Cloud has fought many more threats through his story than Beatrix, some average soldiers aren't comparable to a WEAPON nor to entities such as Jenova SYNTHESIS whose would blow cities in a blink of an eye.

Zidane did it with his team. Flatley (Freya's boyfriend or whatever he is) defeated some Black Mages by himself and with a single slash from his spear (In Cleyra), so even him was more skilled than Zidane at that point, it seems. Cloud is obviously stronger than that Burmecian by a long shot. Besides, Black Mages seems to be slow as hell. They are fat, short and they don't have signs of agility nor strength, Cloud would rape them badly, and they will like it.

You start off by comparing Beatrix to Sephiroth. That's a mistake right off the bat. Sure, Beatrix isn't on Sephiroths level. And guess what, neither is Cloud. Not even close. So this shows absolutely nothing.

And yes, Beatrix can attack with magic. She has holy for starters as well as things like shock etc. Something Cloud doesn't have, might I remind you.

What makes me think it's the strongest army in the world? I said one of them. The only other would be... uh... that other kingdom, the name escapes me, the one they escaped to after leaving Alexandria. Limblum or something? Those two are the most powerful armies in that world. And Linblum is powerful mostly because of it's airship technology.

There was absolutely nothing to suggest she was getting tired fighting monsters in Alexandria. Steigner was the one having trouble in that fight, not Beatrix.

Cloud can't use materia because he does not have any canon use of it.

Just because Cloud fought more in his game does NOT make him stronger. Cloud NEVER cannonly fought a weapon and won, and furthermore he never did so without his team.

Yes, we all know the black mages are nothing special. I believe it was YOUR point supporting Cloud that he would defeat many of them. My point was that doesn't place him above Beatrix. Everyone drops those things.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
You start off by comparing Beatrix to Sephiroth. That's a mistake right off the bat. Sure, Beatrix isn't on Sephiroths level. And guess what, neither is Cloud. Not even close. So this shows absolutely nothing.

And yes, Beatrix can attack with magic. She has holy for starters as well as things like shock etc. Something Cloud doesn't have, might I remind you.

What makes me think it's the strongest army in the world? I said one of them. The only other would be... uh... that other kingdom, the name escapes me, the one they escaped to after leaving Alexandria. Limblum or something? Those two are the most powerful armies in that world. And Linblum is powerful mostly because of it's airship technology.

There was absolutely nothing to suggest she was getting tired fighting monsters in Alexandria. Steigner was the one having trouble in that fight, not Beatrix.

Cloud can't use materia because he does not have any canon use of it.

Just because Cloud fought more in his game does NOT make him stronger. Cloud NEVER cannonly fought a weapon and won, and furthermore he never did so without his team.

Yes, we all know the black mages are nothing special. I believe it was YOUR point supporting Cloud that he would defeat many of them. My point was that doesn't place him above Beatrix. Everyone drops those things.

Guess what, Sephiroth is the absolutely best of his world, Beatrix is just known in a continent. So the comparison seems pausible enough to me. I know Cloud isn't on Sephiroth's level, you don' need to remind me that.

So being able to cast Holy proves so much, huh? Sephiroth's Telekinesis says hi. Cloud doesn't use Magic through Materia? And Holy is canonically used by Beatrix? I think nope. Sure, Beatrix must fight with the help of magic abilities infusing her blade. Shock? Steiner was also capable of performing such things, was he not? Cloud's Limit Breaks > Shock.

If not THE strongest of the world, you said. Correct, Lindblum is a strong kingdom in the Final Fantasy IX Universe, but not due of the airships. Can you tell me what kind of soldiers (and from where) Beatrix has fought? I think that is never specified, but if you do know, let me know. Black Mages are NOTHING special you just said...? Hmm, ask the Lindblum soldiers, then. Also, ask the people of Cleyra and do not forget to ask the people of Burmecia (including its soldiers).

Cloud did fought Diamond WEAPON in canon, and is even pausible to assume he did fought the rest of them. That's not the point though. A WEAPON would vanish an army of soldiers, and by army, I mean an army. Not 100 soldiers. Cloud being able to defeat it with a few people with him (his team) shows a great feat.

As for the battle in Alexandria, Steiner said "is just a scratch", I don't consider that as having trouble at all, and I bet it was for protecting her, I base it off of that he in fact said he shall protect her while fighting. Beatrix, however, among his lines says "This is futile! Let us return to the castle!". Why? She was scared? If not, the she was getting kind of tired.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Guess what, Sephiroth is the absolutely best of his world, Beatrix is just known in a continent. So the comparison seems pausible enough to me. I know Cloud isn't on Sephiroth's level, you don' need to remind me that.

So what? Irrelevant. All of it. Completely and utterly irrelevant. Cloud isn't stronger than Sephiroth. What do you think this shows? All you have provided is a character that is stronger than BOTH of them. Nothing more. Why did you bring Sephiroth into this if you know Cloud isn't stronger? We are talking about Cloud and Beatrix, not beatrix and Sephiroth.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
So being able to cast Holy proves so much, huh? Sephiroth's Telekinesis says hi. Cloud doesn't use Magic through Materia? And Holy is canonically used by Beatrix? I think nope. Sure, Beatrix must fight with the help of magic abilities infusing her blade. Shock? Steiner was also capable of performing such things, was he not? Cloud's Limit Breaks > Shock.

Why the crap are you bringing Sephiroth into this debate again?! Honestly. Sephiroth is stronger than Beatrix. I know that. IT SHOWS NOTHING! Yes, Holy is canonly a spell that she knows. Just like shock and thunderslash. And why do I care that Steigner can use shock? Dagger can also use holy. So what? Who cares if there are other characters who can use those attacks? You asked if she can attack with magic. I answered your question. Nothing more.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
If not THE strongest of the world, you said. Correct, Lindblum is a strong kingdom in the Final Fantasy IX Universe, but not due of the airships. Can you tell me what kind of soldiers (and from where) Beatrix has fought? I think that is never specified, but if you do know, let me know. Black Mages are NOTHING special you just said...? Hmm, ask the Lindblum soldiers, then. Also, ask the people of Cleyra and do not forget to ask the people of Burmecia (including its soldiers).

Yeah. It's debatable weather it's the strongest army in the world. It's either that one or Linblum. One or the other, though it's not really clear which one. The black mages are more powerful than regular soldiers, for the most part, but they are still far less powerful than any main character.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Cloud did fought Diamond WEAPON in canon, and is even pausible to assume he did fought the rest of them. That's not the point though. A WEAPON would vanish an army of soldiers, and by army, I mean an army. Not 100 soldiers. Cloud being able to defeat it with a few people with him (his team) shows a great feat.

Did you completely forget FF7? Cloud didn't defeat that weapon at all!!! All your attacks do, like 1 or 0 damage. If you survive long enough, it gets shot with the mana canon. Cloud did NOT defeat it, or even come close to scratching the thing.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
As for the battle in Alexandria, Steiner said "is just a scratch", I don't consider that as having trouble at all, and I bet it was for protecting her, I base it off of that he in fact said he shall protect her while fighting. Beatrix, however, among his lines says "This is futile! Let us return to the castle!". Why? She was scared? If not, the she was getting kind of tired.

You never tire of baseless assumptions do you? Well he PROBABLY got that scratch from protecting her, never mind he got it before saying that. Well, she was PROBABLY scared, and that's why she wanted to return to the castle. No, she wanted to return to the castle for Steigner's sake. He was wounded and doubled over out of breath at that point. He was obviously not doing all that well.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
So what? Irrelevant. All of it. Completely and utterly irrelevant. Cloud isn't stronger than Sephiroth. What do you think this shows? All you have provided is a character that is stronger than BOTH of them. Nothing more. Why did you bring Sephiroth into this if you know Cloud isn't stronger? We are talking about Cloud and Beatrix, not beatrix and Sephiroth.

Why the crap are you bringing Sephiroth into this debate again?! Honestly. Sephiroth is stronger than Beatrix. I know that. IT SHOWS NOTHING! Yes, Holy is canonly a spell that she knows. Just like shock and thunderslash. And why do I care that Steigner can use shock? Dagger can also use holy. So what? Who cares if there are other characters who can use those attacks? You asked if she can attack with magic. I answered your question. Nothing more.

Because at least, Cloud endured a battle against Sephiroth, who is the best of the best, EVEN if he was giving all of his strength to it and Sephiroth didn't break a sweat, forget it. But yeah, I suppose Cloud's battles means nothing, right? Then how the hell do you demonstrate that one character may win over another by fighting? By looking at their achievements, battles, etc. Remember that you always use the stab argument to combat Squall? You don't use anything besides that thing that has been proven wrong multiple times already to prove he can win. But of course... if not, why Beatrix's fight with some soldiers is SO important? It can be a big deal for Zidane and Freya maybe (which both of them were unexperienced in battle), not for Cloud. It wouldn't surprise me either, the Final Fantasy IX characters are an automatic productive-machine of lost battles, they are beaten and owned throughout the game so many times that is not even funny. Cloud is individually as weak and experienced as those soldiers? I think the answer is absolutely no. He could take those soldiers as well, and I'd say faster than Beatrix because he's genetically enhanced by Jenova Cells and Mako, thus super-human. Hell, even Steiner would defeat many of those by himself, because he's an strong captain of the kingdom, 20 soldiers of those wouldn't equal Steiner's capabilities in combat.

What the hell are you talking about?!! Holy is CANONICALLY used by HER? Are you COMPLETELY sure? I would love to see that. Please? On the other hand, you said Cloud can't use Magic? Yet Beatrix CAN? Aren't you biased here? The usage of Materia is canon on Final Fantasy VII, and the characters have been using Materia in the story, Cloud did already came with Thunder, Blizzard and even the Cure Magic before the game starts, we CAN'T say the same about Beatrix now, can we? Cloud doesn't use it anymore though, because Materia drains the Planet's energy, so the characters have decided to not use them. That's why I said Cloud could use Magic IF he is allowed. So you don't have to be the best on the continent or anything to be able to learn Holy and Shock then, neither incredibly powerful magic-wise since Garnet, Eiko and Steiner could. And why you said "She has holy for starters as well as things like shock etc. Something Cloud doesn't have, might I remind you."? With that paragraph, you were literally making it sound like it is a BIG deal and that you have to be extremely powerful and the best in among many to learn Holy and Shock. Guess what, neither of those is true. Tell Beatrix to learn Telekinesis and something called Omnislash, which by the way > Thunderslash.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Yeah. It's debatable weather it's the strongest army in the world. It's either that one or Linblum. One or the other, though it's not really clear which one. The black mages are more powerful than regular soldiers, for the most part, but they are still far less powerful than any main character.

Did you completely forget FF7? Cloud didn't defeat that weapon at all!!! All your attacks do, like 1 or 0 damage. If you survive long enough, it gets shot with the mana canon. Cloud did NOT defeat it, or even come close to scratching the thing.

You never tire of baseless assumptions do you? Well he PROBABLY got that scratch from protecting her, never mind he got it before saying that. Well, she was PROBABLY scared, and that's why she wanted to return to the castle. No, she wanted to return to the castle for Steigner's sake. He was wounded and doubled over out of breath at that point. He was obviously not doing all that well.

Alexandria is only strong due of the Black Mages, the three Black Waltz and Eidolons, nothing more, which by the way, are an outside help. Those female soldiers from Beatrix doesn't seems to be very strong, but at least stronger than those stupid Knights of Pluto, they look retarded and with an IQ of -5000. Fighting soldiers is common in Final Fantasy just as fighting monsters. But it seems that fighting Black Mages it isn't in Final Fantasy IX. FAR LESS powerful? Oh really...? Do you think Eiko would be able to defeat many Black Mages by herself? What about Steiner? What about Quina? Zidane, Freya and Vivi pretty much had trouble with them, if I recall correctly, and they were saved by that rat Fatley which is a wimp compared to Cloud.

It seems that the one who forgot about Final Fantasy VII is NOT ME. Sapphire WEAPON was the one that has been taken down solely with a cannon (in Junon), not Diamond. Diamond WEAPON is fought near the end of the game when it was approaching to Midgar, by Cloud and his party. It can be pretty much damaged by them so I don't know what the hell do you mean by "1 and 0". Some weak soldiers are garbage compared to ANY WEAPON, face it. The entire Shinra Infantry army with all of his heavy artillery did nothing to Sapphire, they had to use the gigantic Sister Ray Mako cannon to take it down, the same happened to Diamond, which it has been taken down with a even more powerful cannon powered by all of the Mako Reactors. Even IF Cloud did managed to do a simple and insignificant mark on that thing, is STILL pretty much a great feat. I would pay one million dolars to see the Knights of Pluto with a bunch of Black Mages trying to hurt a WEAPON. Lmao.

So she wanted to return to the castle because of Steiner? And I am the one doing assumptions? She PROBABLY wanted to return to the castle due of Steiner's sake. See what I did there...? Never mind he said he shall protect her AFTER that, he may be taking hits or THE hit for her, and getting a scratch is not trouble at all, they are FIGHTING, so guess that, getting hurt in a battle is pretty common, he pretty much continued doing so. The point is that BOTH of them had kind of trouble, and she was aided by Steiner in all of those battles, it's not like she did not needed him at all. He was fighting damn well.

TacDavey
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Because at least, Cloud endured a battle against Sephiroth, who is the best of the best, EVEN if he was giving all of his strength to it and Sephiroth didn't break a sweat, forget it. But yeah, I suppose Cloud's battles means nothing, right? Then how the hell do you demonstrate that one character may win over another by fighting? By looking at their achievements, battles, etc. Remember that you always use the stab argument to combat Squall? You don't use anything besides that thing that has been proven wrong multiple times already to prove he can win. But of course... if not, why Beatrix's fight with some soldiers is SO important? It can be a big deal for Zidane and Freya maybe (which both of them were unexperienced in battle), not for Cloud. It wouldn't surprise me either, the Final Fantasy IX characters are an automatic productive-machine of lost battles, they are beaten and owned throughout the game so many times that is not even funny. Cloud is individually as weak and experienced as those soldiers? I think the answer is absolutely no. He could take those soldiers as well, and I'd say faster than Beatrix because he's genetically enhanced by Jenova Cells and Mako, thus super-human. Hell, even Steiner would defeat many of those by himself, because he's an strong captain of the kingdom, 20 soldiers of those wouldn't equal Steiner's capabilities in combat.

We can't draw any conclusions about Clouds strength from a battle he LOST, can we? How are we suppose to be able to judge Clouds strength? The only thing we can take from Cloud vs Sephiroth is that Sephiroth is stronger. Nothing more. And Sephiroth is stronger than Beatrix, so in the end it says nothing.

Look at it this way. You have character A and Character B. Which one is stronger? Well, what do we know about them? Character C can beat both of them. Now tell me. Which character is stronger? Character A or Character B? Before I am willing to continue this part of the discussion, I want that question answered and I want your reasons behind who you chose.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What the hell are you talking about?!! Holy is CANONICALLY used by HER? Are you COMPLETELY sure? I would love to see that. Please? On the other hand, you said Cloud can't use Magic? Yet Beatrix CAN? Aren't you biased here? The usage of Materia is canon on Final Fantasy VII, and the characters have been using Materia in the story, Cloud did already came with Thunder, Blizzard and even the Cure Magic before the game starts, we CAN'T say the same about Beatrix now, can we? Cloud doesn't use it anymore though, because Materia drains the Planet's energy, so the characters have decided to not use them. That's why I said Cloud could use Magic IF he is allowed. So you don't have to be the best on the continent or anything to be able to learn Holy and Shock then, neither incredibly powerful magic-wise since Garnet, Eiko and Steiner could. And why you said "She has holy for starters as well as things like shock etc. Something Cloud doesn't have, might I remind you."? With that paragraph, you were literally making it sound like it is a BIG deal and that you have to be extremely powerful and the best in among many to learn Holy and Shock. Guess what, neither of those is true. Tell Beatrix to learn Telekinesis and something called Omnislash, which by the way > Thunderslash.

Yes, Beatrix CANONLY knows Holy. It's one of her spells. The same can't be said of Cloud. He may get materia through the game, but he doesn't have to equip it! That's the whole point! Beatrix absolutely 100% knows holy. It isn't something that can be changed or edited by the player. But materia IS. If I don't want Cloud using Thunder or Blizzard, guess what. Off they go. 100% up to me, the player, to decide ALL of Clouds magic abilities. Not a single one of them is canonly Clouds magic. They can be 100% edited at will.

You do have to be moderately powerful to learn both those spells, but that isn't even the point! The point is Beatrix has set skills that she knows and we know she knows. Cloud does not. Cloud is ALMOST as editable as Vaan from FF12.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Alexandria is only strong due of the Black Mages, the three Black Waltz and Eidolons, nothing more, which by the way, are an outside help. Those female soldiers from Beatrix doesn't seems to be very strong, but at least stronger than those stupid Knights of Pluto, they look retarded and with an IQ of -5000. Fighting soldiers is common in Final Fantasy just as fighting monsters. But it seems that fighting Black Mages it isn't in Final Fantasy IX. FAR LESS powerful? Oh really...? Do you think Eiko would be able to defeat many Black Mages by herself? What about Steiner? What about Quina? Zidane, Freya and Vivi pretty much had trouble with them, if I recall correctly, and they were saved by that rat Fatley which is a wimp compared to Cloud.

WRONG! The Black Mages were a new threat. They came in once the army invaded Linblum and hadn't been seen before that. Kuja had just supplied them with the Black Mages and that was what tipped the scales in favor of Alexandria.

Yes, I think Eiko, Steigner and pretty much everyone can take those things out pretty easily. The only reason Fratly had to come in and help out was because Zidane was trying to protect the villagers and there were too many to try and protect them all. He was dropping mages left and right in that fight if you remember correctly, you fight them all throughout that scene.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
It seems that the one who forgot about Final Fantasy VII is NOT ME. Sapphire WEAPON was the one that has been taken down solely with a cannon (in Junon), not Diamond. Diamond WEAPON is fought near the end of the game when it was approaching to Midgar, by Cloud and his party. It can be pretty much damaged by them so I don't know what the hell do you mean by "1 and 0". Some weak soldiers are garbage compared to ANY WEAPON, face it. The entire Shinra Infantry army with all of his heavy artillery did nothing to Sapphire, they had to use the gigantic Sister Ray Mako cannon to take it down, the same happened to Diamond, which it has been taken down with a even more powerful cannon powered by all of the Mako Reactors. Even IF Cloud did managed to do a simple and insignificant mark on that thing, is STILL pretty much a great feat. I would pay one million dolars to see the Knights of Pluto with a bunch of Black Mages trying to hurt a WEAPON. Lmao.

Wrong again. Cloud never defeated Diamond Weapon, though admittedly I was wrong about the 1 and 0. Still, you don't win that fight. Cloud NEVER defeated that weapon, it was the canon that killed it. Cloud can take NO CREDIT for it's death.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
So she wanted to return to the castle because of Steiner? And I am the one doing assumptions? She PROBABLY wanted to return to the castle due of Steiner's sake. See what I did there...? Never mind he said he shall protect her AFTER that, he may be taking hits or THE hit for her, and getting a scratch is not trouble at all, they are FIGHTING, so guess that, getting hurt in a battle is pretty common, he pretty much continued doing so. The point is that BOTH of them had kind of trouble, and she was aided by Steiner in all of those battles, it's not like she did not needed him at all. He was fighting damn well.

I'm not making baseless assumptions. Beatrix was fine. She wasn't hurt, or out of breath or anything. She was fighting along side Steigner, who was the one out of breath and wounded. Beatrix was 100% fine that we could see. Steigner was the only one having trouble in that fight.

Jeesus
1. It's clear that your FFIX party at the point you fight Beatrix isn't nearly as strong as end of game party. EoG your party has 12 Eidolons including Odin, Bahamut and Atomos and Zidane has grown hugely in power as stated by Garland.
/watch?v=Kso_0PnIGHQ&feature=related 06:40 --> and 09:28 -->

2. Kuja can use Ultima in combat, he effortlesly destroyed your party with one casual Ultima when he Tranced for the first time.

3. Kuja was holding back for the whole time in the final battle. Any too powerful attack could've destroyed the Crystal and thus would've been a suicide. Once he used his true power he instantly killed the party. Also it was his own attack that maimed him, not any attack from the party. And even if they did, it might've just been Dagger and Eiko summoning Eidolon after Eidolon dropping nukes on Kuja.

4. Defeating 100 soldiers is poor feat compared to what any Eidolon from FFIX could do.

5. Had Beatrix defeated EoG party - that would be absurdly impressive feat, but the people she defeats don't have much going for them at the time.

6. Cloud wins. Implying that Beatrix wouldn't get crushed instantly against Trance Kuja like a little bug is ridiculous. Nothing from FFIX world other than Necron would pose Trance Kuja any threat whatsoever without PIS. Not Eidolons, not your party. Even story wise he crushed your party, who need I remind you had all Eidolons the world had to offer. Thus saying that Beatrix wins because Trance Kuja is stronger than Cloud is faulty.

7. I don't want to bash Beatrix but defeating 100 knights and your party from beginning of second disc, altought impressive, isn't enough feats to put him on bar with Cloud.

TacDavey
Originally posted by Jeesus
1. It's clear that your FFIX party at the point you fight Beatrix isn't nearly as strong as end of game party. EoG your party has 12 Eidolons including Odin, Bahamut and Atomos and Zidane has grown hugely in power as stated by Garland.
/watch?v=Kso_0PnIGHQ&feature=related 06:40 --> and 09:28 -->

I don't think that link you sent me was correct. The time you gave me was Zidane dodging roots and talking to Kuja at the end.

And I'm sure the party is stronger at the time. I forgot what point was trying to be made here. It's been some time since this thread was going.

Originally posted by Jeesus
2. Kuja can use Ultima in combat, he effortlesly destroyed your party with one casual Ultima when he Tranced for the first time.

I don't know if this was a response to me, but I don't remember ever denying Kuja could use Ultima in battle.

Originally posted by Jeesus
3. Kuja was holding back for the whole time in the final battle. Any too powerful attack could've destroyed the Crystal and thus would've been a suicide. Once he used his true power he instantly killed the party. Also it was his own attack that maimed him, not any attack from the party. And even if they did, it might've just been Dagger and Eiko summoning Eidolon after Eidolon dropping nukes on Kuja.

Are you sure? Kuja says at the end "After you guys beat me..." Kuja's ultima was a last ditch effort because he was loosing that fight.

Originally posted by Jeesus
4. Defeating 100 soldiers is poor feat compared to what any Eidolon from FFIX could do.

Cloud isn't an eidolon, so I don't see how this is relevant.

Originally posted by Jeesus
5. Had Beatrix defeated EoG party - that would be absurdly impressive feat, but the people she defeats don't have much going for them at the time.

I wouldn't say that. They were pretty strong when they fought her at the castle. Not to mention you can see even when Bahamut is attacking the town Beatrix still has a leg up on Steiner.

Originally posted by Jeesus
6. Cloud wins. Implying that Beatrix wouldn't get crushed instantly against Trance Kuja like a little bug is ridiculous. Nothing from FFIX world other than Necron would pose Trance Kuja any threat whatsoever without PIS. Not Eidolons, not your party. Even story wise he crushed your party, who need I remind you had all Eidolons the world had to offer. Thus saying that Beatrix wins because Trance Kuja is stronger than Cloud is faulty.

I don't believe I ever said Beatrix was stronger than Trance Kuja. I said she was stronger than Zidane.

Originally posted by Jeesus
7. I don't want to bash Beatrix but defeating 100 knights and your party from beginning of second disc, altought impressive, isn't enough feats to put him on bar with Cloud.

The 100 knights was only a small part of the argument.

NemeBro
Cloud wins with his bare hands.

That's basically my contribution to this thread.

Thank me.

TacDavey
Originally posted by NemeBro
Cloud wins with his bare hands.

That's basically my contribution to this thread.

Thank me.

Thank you.

NemeBro
You're welcome.

Enfathiel
Originally posted by NemeBro
Cloud wins with his bare hands.

That's basically my contribution to this thread.

Thank me.

Pretty much.

It didn't need over 4 pages of this.

Enfathiel

NemeBro
I can't imagine anyone ever bothering to read that shit.

Enfathiel
Well, since this thread was running mostly against a unfeated character with incorrect powerscaling, I thought I might've just layed out Cloud's best feats already.

Apologies for the lenght though.

tl;Dr

Cloud is superior in every aspect. He wins.

TacDavey
I didn't read all of that, but I did notice that most of the examples came from Advent Children or other similar future projects. I might point out that the ability to perform such feats is pretty basic in the Final Fantasy universe. Just look at Dissidia. None of the characters could do what they do in those games originally. Just as Zidane got an upgrade in Dissidia, Beatrix would also receive one should she be included in modern games. The developers even admitted they weren't worried about keeping it realistic to what the original characters could do in the first games.

Bottom line, you cannot use new game and combat design to prove someone's superiority over older versions.

NemeBro
Sure you can.

When the feats are better, you certainly can.

Frankly nothing Zidane did in Dissidia is canon, nor as impressive as Cloud's feats.

Sure, Beatrix MIGHT be capable of similar feats were she put in a more modern media work, but she might not.

Logically, we shouldn't assume that she is as good as Cloud when nothing points to that.

Enfathiel
I showed combined feats from Crisis Core, Dirge Of Cerberus, Advent Children, Before Crisis and Final Fantasy VII.

All things Cloud has done. Now I expect some feats from said other character to combat my own.

Also, don't go by supposition, you're assuming she'd be as strong as Cloud.

Yea, the guy with swordsmanship to match the greatest in history, empowered by the power of a goddess and a life-wiping alien, and a will strong enough to remain constant in the lifestream and best Sephiroth's will.

TacDavey
Originally posted by NemeBro
Sure you can.

When the feats are better, you certainly can.

But if they were worse you couldn't?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Frankly nothing Zidane did in Dissidia is canon, nor as impressive as Cloud's feats.

But they are a demonstration of the new fighting system recent Final Fantasy titles are going for. Cloud is only able to perform those feats because he has a ton of recent representations when they "upgraded" the fighting style. The fact that Zidane and every other Final Fantasy character in Dissidia can do the same only furthers the point. The modern representations of characters abilities aren't evidence of things they can perform and other Final Fantasy characters can't. They are evidence of the style of fighting Final Fantasy is going toward in general.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Sure, Beatrix MIGHT be capable of similar feats were she put in a more modern media work, but she might not.

Logically, we shouldn't assume that she is as good as Cloud when nothing points to that.

But I think there are reasons to think that. At least enough to debate about it.


Originally posted by Enfathiel
I showed combined feats from Crisis Core, Dirge Of Cerberus, Advent Children, Before Crisis and Final Fantasy VII.

All things Cloud has done. Now I expect some feats from said other character to combat my own.

Also, don't go by supposition, you're assuming she'd be as strong as Cloud.

Yea, the guy with swordsmanship to match the greatest in history, empowered by the power of a goddess and a life-wiping alien, and a will strong enough to remain constant in the lifestream and best Sephiroth's will.

I'm not just assuming she's stronger than Cloud. I'm rejecting your reasons for claiming Cloud is stronger than her. I have already explained why Advent Children and the rest are not good representations of characters abilities concerning past versions of Final Fantasy characters.

Enfathiel
Show me any feat from Dissidia matching any of the feats I showed.

You're just telling me "you can't use this because It has better feats. So Nyan!"

TacDavey
Originally posted by Enfathiel
Show me any feat from Dissidia matching any of the feats I showed.

You're just telling me "you can't use this because It has better feats. So Nyan!"

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying these feats are modern "upgrades" concerning Final Fantasy. It isn't limited to Cloud or FF7, it's the way recent Final Fantasy works in general now. The only reason Beatrix doesn't have clear examples of this type of ability is because she has not been introduced in a recent Final Fantasy game or movie. Thus, you have to look at her original version compared to Cloud's original version if you want to have a valid debate.

Enfathiel
That's completely ridiculous. Assuming that they'll get as good a feats as Cloud's simply because of newness.

If that were true, Lightning would have comparable feats to Cloud. Yet she does not even have comparable feats to Second Class Zack.

Your hypothesis is flawed.

NemeBro
Originally posted by TacDavey
But if they were worse you couldn't?

That wasn't actually what I meant, and I think you know that.



Which is why Lightning was able to do all the things we saw in Advent Children in Final Fantasy XIII. Oh wait, no, she couldn't. FFVII is clearly unique in that regard, and Dissidia is, once more, noncanon. Characters were amped or weakened to create a balanced, fun gameplay system. Ideally, anyway.

As of now, FFVII is the only canon series that has demonstrated these feats. FFX and XIII did not. So boo on you.



Name them.

Enfathiel
Heck can she even break Cloud's durability? I showed earlier he posses multi city-block to country durability based on feats.

Or react to his speed? Even fodder such as Turks and Second Class Zack were casually bullet-timing with zero effort.

Or not break her arm against his strenght? This is the guy who traded blows with Sephiroth, broke Bahamut Sin while deathly Ill, and cut through the Omega Weapon's mako constructed metallic alloy.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Enfathiel
Heck can she even break Cloud's durability? I showed earlier he posses multi city-block to country durability based on feats. You're going to have to elaborate on this bit.

Enfathiel
Originally posted by NemeBro
You're going to have to elaborate on this bit.

From tanking the Tremor Flare to tanking the Northern Crater blowing up and then falling down the hole. It was in my previous post...check the durability section.

TacDavey
Originally posted by Enfathiel
That's completely ridiculous. Assuming that they'll get as good a feats as Cloud's simply because of newness.

If that were true, Lightning would have comparable feats to Cloud. Yet she does not even have comparable feats to Second Class Zack.

Your hypothesis is flawed.

On the contrary, Lightning was performing many Advent Children like fights. Just look at her fight in the train at the beginning. Now compare that to fights scene in previous Final Fantasy's. Not to mention her ability to leap great heights and fall from them as well.

And I never said that they will become as good as Cloud just because they are new. It's still possible to have new characters that are weaker or stronger than one another. My point was that the style of fighting has evolved to fit more with Advent Children and Dissidia. So any newer game will likely have said style of fighting.

For example, let's say there was a character in FF7 who was canonically stronger than Cloud. But we never see him fight in Advent Children or any other place outside of the original FF7. Would you assume he could do the kind of things Cloud could do in Advent Children? Of course, because he would be upgraded like everyone else. The fact is if he was stronger than Cloud in FF7, he's going to continually be stronger than Cloud in Advent Children. Why? Because Cloud didn't gain new abilities with Advent Children. The style was just changed, nothing more. Which means if someone was stronger than his FF7 form, they will continue to be stronger regardless of whether or not they have had an Advent Children like movie.

Which is why, if they don't have a new version of themselves to go off of, you have to compare them on equal ground. If Beatrix was stronger than Cloud's FF7 form, she'll be stronger than his Advent Children one.



Originally posted by NemeBro
Which is why Lightning was able to do all the things we saw in Advent Children in Final Fantasy XIII. Oh wait, no, she couldn't. FFVII is clearly unique in that regard, and Dissidia is, once more, noncanon. Characters were amped or weakened to create a balanced, fun gameplay system. Ideally, anyway.

As of now, FFVII is the only canon series that has demonstrated these feats. FFX and XIII did not. So boo on you.

Ignore feats for a second and focus on style. Lightning has the same style of fighting as Advent Children, the only difference is she isn't cutting buildings. And even if they didn't revamp the fighting to the degree they did in Advent Children, the point still stands that Advent Children was a revamp. Cloud could do none of those things in FF7. It was a change in fighting style, nothing more. If a character was stronger than Cloud was in FF7, they will still be stronger. Since Beatrix has no new upgraded version to go off of, you have to look at them on even ground. Back before the redone fighting style.



Originally posted by NemeBro
Name them.

I have been naming them in this thread.

Enfathiel
On the contrary, Lightning was performing many Advent Children like fights. Just look at her fight in the train at the beginning. Now compare that to fights scene in previous Final Fantasy's. Not to mention her ability to leap great heights and fall from them as well.

And I never said that they will become as good as Cloud just because they are new. It's still possible to have new characters that are weaker or stronger than one another. My point was that the style of fighting has evolved to fit more with Advent Children and Dissidia. So any newer game will likely have said style of fighting.

What? Lol? When did Lightning solo a Bahamut, or cut skyscrapers effortlessly while flying over Midgar? Lightning's display is unimpressive compared to Cloud in AC. You're just assuming because they are newer, they have the same substance. Which is laughable to say the least.

You're grossling pulling some half-assed explanation to disregard FFVII's compilation feats.

Have you ever heard of style over substance? That's the fallacy you are commiting here. You assume style will triumph over substance.
Even though the substance and context of FFVII's feats wouldn't change If it was in CG or not.

You could show me pixels of Cloud doing all the things my post mentioned, It would still be the exact same thing. The Compilation of FFVII simply has better feats. You need to learn how to deal with that, friend. No one's going to buy this silly excuse.

Cloud tanked a slash from Jenova/Sephiroth in mid-FFVII. That's a better tanking feat than what Beatrix could even hope to dish out.

For example, let's say there was a character in FF7 who was canonically stronger than Cloud. But we never see him fight in Advent Children or any other place outside of the original FF7. Would you assume he could do the kind of things Cloud could do in Advent Children? Of course, because he would be upgraded like everyone else. The fact is if he was stronger than Cloud in FF7, he's going to continually be stronger than Cloud in Advent Children. Why? Because Cloud didn't gain new abilities with Advent Children. The style was just changed, nothing more. Which means if someone was stronger than his FF7 form, they will continue to be stronger regardless of whether or not they have had an Advent Children like movie.

Which is why, if they don't have a new version of themselves to go off of, you have to compare them on equal ground. If Beatrix was stronger than Cloud's FF7 form, she'll be stronger than his Advent Children one.

Um-huh. Because you are 100% sure she would display feats with the same substance as Cloud in his compilation? And not those of Lightning's? Who had feats significantly weaker than Cloud's?

Like I said, all you're doing here is assumig grossly out of nowhere this character can perform feats from the same context as Cloud's because she's older than him.

And IX has some good rendered cutscenes, they just lack the substance.

Oh, and most of the stronger feats I showed in that post were from FFVII It'self. Go tackle them.

I have been naming them in this thread.


Sure. I have not seen you name one feat in favor of your character.

Kuja9001
Originally posted by Enfathiel
What? Lol? When did Lightning solo a Bahamut

She gets to solo Bahamut in 13-2

Enfathiel
I know. But I worded It poorly. What I meant, is the feats from the Bahamut fight.

Like tanking Tremor Flare or breaking It's armor(which stood attacks from all of AVALANCHE) and swatting It from the sky.

Lightning dosen't have feats such as those, even in her newness.

The point is style dosen't override substance.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
Lightning was performing many Advent Children like fights. Just look at her fight in the train at the beginning. Now compare that to fights scene in previous Final Fantasy's. Not to mention her ability to leap great heights and fall from them as well.

For example, let's say there was a character in FF7 who was canonically stronger than Cloud. But we never see him fight in Advent Children or any other place outside of the original FF7. Would you assume he could do the kind of things Cloud could do in Advent Children? Of course, because he would be upgraded like everyone else. The fact is if he was stronger than Cloud in FF7, he's going to continually be stronger than Cloud in Advent Children. Why? Because Cloud didn't gain new abilities with Advent Children. The style was just changed, nothing more. Which means if someone was stronger than his FF7 form, they will continue to be stronger regardless of whether or not they have had an Advent Children like movie.

Which is why, if they don't have a new version of themselves to go off of, you have to compare them on equal ground. If Beatrix was stronger than Cloud's FF7 form, she'll be stronger than his Advent Children one.

Tac, I don't know about Lightning but, in Final Fantasy VIII the White SeeDs can easily leap great heights and the main characters can fall from them as well, so I think that newer graphics (in that case) are not applicable. While I agree that some of the old Final Fantasy characters would be able to perform similar destructive feats as Cloud (since they are equal or stronger than him), we still don't have evidence for Beatrix. I see no reason to think that she would be capable of acomplish stunts of that caliber.

That's a good analogy, except Beatrix it's not a Final Fantasy VII character. That could apply to, let's say, Zangan (Tifa's mentor) if he were alive.

Thing is, Final Fantasy VII has been ret-conned. We have Crisis Core (which is pre-FFVII) and a young Zack can block machine gun bullets with his sword. This means that the characters always performed these feats.

Enfathiel
Not to mention, weaker weapons were tanking city-busters in FFVII, and Cloud in DoC easily cut the Omega Weapon with one sword. Not only that, he matched AC/C Sephiroth in strenght, and Sephiroth's weakest incarnation could decapitate Jenova. Sephiroth also has ridiculous strenght feats.

Cloud is just too fast, strong, and durable for this opponent.

NemeBro
Originally posted by TacDavey
Ignore feats for a second and focus on style.

Why in the hell would I do that?



Or dodging/deflecting bullets. Or leaping hundreds of feet in the air while fighting.



Irrelevant. The feats are better than what Beatrix has shown.



And yet also proves that Cloud and friends are much stronger than Beatrix, based on showings, not your speculation. Even ground nothing. Beatrix is never even implied to be as strong as Cloud is shown to be.



Do not recall.

TheAuraAngel
Lol this not finished yet?

TacDavey
You all seem to be misunderstanding my points here. I am not assuming Beatrix can leap buildings and cut skyscrapers. Nor did I ever claim that Lightning could do that, nor did I ever claim that being newer means you are as strong as Cloud.

I'm simply pointing out the change in fighting style. Do any of you disagree with the fact that Cloud could not do Advent Children stuff in FF7? The fighting style changed to the newer version. That's why Cloud get's a ton of new feats. But that doesn't mean Cloud got so much stronger between the events of FF7 and Advent Children, that he went from not being able to do that to being able to do that. It means the style originally used to portray characters (used with all old characters such as Beatrix and Zidane and Squall and Cloud) was removed and replaced with an updated version.

Here's the problem. Beatrix never got the upgrade. She isn't in any new movies or games. So how can we logically decide if she can beat Cloud or not? You go back to the roots. If she can beat Cloud in FF7 form, (since, again, Cloud didn't get a strength upgrade from FF7 to Advent Children, he got a style upgrade) then it logically stands that she can beat Cloud's Advent Children form. Unless it can be shown that there was a significant strength increase from FF7 to Advent Children, but I don't think there is.

SpadeKing
Isn't this Beatrix vs the FF7 version of Cloud anyway and not the AC version? Or are we just assuming it's Cloud at his best?

Nephthys
If it is the FF7 version Beatrix walks up and down his narrow ass imo.

TacDavey
Originally posted by SpadeKing
Isn't this Beatrix vs the FF7 version of Cloud anyway and not the AC version? Or are we just assuming it's Cloud at his best?

I never specified, but I'm thinking of just specifically making it FF7 Cloud.

Enfathiel
I'm simply pointing out the change in fighting style. Do any of you disagree with the fact that Cloud could not do Advent Children stuff in FF7?

Yes, he could. Second Class Zack and Turks were easily bullet-timing in the Before Crisis Era. FFVII Cloud is far above those people raching a certain point in the game.

It's just difficult to show with VII's cutscenes. But not with IX's.

The fighting style changed to the newer version. That's why Cloud get's a ton of new feats.

VII has been retconned, there's raelly all there is to It. It's the only verse contextually showing feats with better substance. Whatever the style.

You are, again, taking style over substance.

But that doesn't mean Cloud got so much stronger between the events of FF7 and Advent Children

He got canonicaly at least twice as powerful. Sephiroth stated It himself.

AC/C Cloud > EoG FFVII Cloud

It's why he could fight Sephiroth's transcended form to a stalemate for more than 12 hours(all stated in the Reunion Files).

hat he went from not being able to do that to being able to do that.

He could always do that in the creator's minds. It's why the newer games show It.

It means the style originally used to portray characters (used with all old characters such as Beatrix and Zidane and Squall and Cloud) was removed and replaced with an updated version.

See, now this is what kills you.

You assume, if Beatrix was put in the same style, she'd get simmilar feats.

And you can't prove that by any means. I mean, what Cloud did in AC and DoC proved he has much greater physical strenght than Bea, butn It didn't need any CG.

Cloud simply sliced the Omega Weapon, nothing to do with style here.

Cloud traded blows with AC/C Sephiroth. Who decapitaded jenova in his weakest form. No style required here.

Here's the problem. Beatrix never got the upgrade. She isn't in any new movies or games. So how can we logically decide if she can beat Cloud or not? You go back to the roots. If she can beat Cloud in FF7 form, (since, again, Cloud didn't get a strength upgrade from FF7 to Advent Children, he got a style upgrade)

He did canonicaly get stronger in AC. But the point is, in the Compilation, people such as the Turks were easily dodging bullets and Sephiroth's weakest incarnation was flying through continents and stuff.

FFVII Cloud is stronger than Zack, who can dodge omnidirectional bullet fire.

FFVII has been retconned, so even FFVII Cloud has that power relying on powerscaling(which your character seems to rely on since you haven't presented a single feat).

then it logically stands that she can beat Cloud's Advent Children form. Unless it can be shown that there was a significant strength increase from FF7 to Advent Children, but I don't think there is.

Then you haven't really seen the movie. Sephiroth himself states Cloud grew stronger, and he's been training for two years now(where did you think his new move came from?). It's rather obvious that AC Cloud is stronger than his past self, in the context of the story and not your alaysis of style.



That still won't help your case. FFVII Cloud was still above casual bullet-timers and has ridiculous tanking feats. Not to mention hurts Weapons, tades blows with Sephiroth and defeated Jenova DEATH all alone.


In the end, friend, you're taking style over substance. Even if you assume Beatrix was made again now, you'd have to prove she'd get as good a feats as Cloud and not say...Lightning, Vaan, or characters such as the Turks.

NemeBro
Originally posted by TacDavey
You all seem to be misunderstanding my points here. I am not assuming Beatrix can leap buildings and cut skyscrapers. Nor did I ever claim that Lightning could do that, nor did I ever claim that being newer means you are as strong as Cloud.

I'm simply pointing out the change in fighting style. Do any of you disagree with the fact that Cloud could not do Advent Children stuff in FF7? The fighting style changed to the newer version. That's why Cloud get's a ton of new feats. But that doesn't mean Cloud got so much stronger between the events of FF7 and Advent Children, that he went from not being able to do that to being able to do that. It means the style originally used to portray characters (used with all old characters such as Beatrix and Zidane and Squall and Cloud) was removed and replaced with an updated version.

Here's the problem. Beatrix never got the upgrade. She isn't in any new movies or games. So how can we logically decide if she can beat Cloud or not? You go back to the roots. If she can beat Cloud in FF7 form, (since, again, Cloud didn't get a strength upgrade from FF7 to Advent Children, he got a style upgrade) then it logically stands that she can beat Cloud's Advent Children form. Unless it can be shown that there was a significant strength increase from FF7 to Advent Children, but I don't think there is.

You're under the assumption that were FFIX to reboot, it would be similar to FFVII's feats.

FFX (Also X-2), FFXII, and FFXIII disprove the notion that FFIX would be similar.

TheAuraAngel
I wants Beatrix feats right noa.

Nephthys
She owns the party at least 3 times with a single attack.

NemeBro
Killing one hundred random ass soldiers in battle.

Beating up the party.

And...

...

I guess that's it. Nothing second-class SOLDIER Zack couldn't accomplish.

TheAuraAngel
I want party feats noa.

Nephthys
They beat Kuja, destroyer of worlds.

TheAuraAngel
After the battle with Beatrix, when they are stronger.

NemeBro
Kuja can raze planets with one specific attack, that... Killed the party when he actually used it.

Oh.

erm

Nephthys
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
After the battle with Beatrix, when they are stronger.


Stronger in gameplay terms perhaps. Gameplay/Story segregation ftw!


Originally posted by NemeBro
Kuja can raze planets with one specific attack, that... Killed the party when he actually used it.

Oh.

erm

It was never proven that he killed them.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Nephthys
It was never proven that he killed them.

The screen fades when they are hit by it, ending the battle, and they proceed to fight the universal abstract concept of death itself.

Yeah, it's pretty fair to say they didn't tank it.

Not that it matters, Kuja can't just DBZ planet bust, it took prolonged blastin'.

Shit, at least go for good FFIX arguments, like how Zidane at full power is said to be superior to Kuja, who was able to tank Bahamut's Mega Flare like it was nothing, gosh.

Nephthys
Originally posted by NemeBro
The screen fades when they are hit by it, ending the battle, and they proceed to fight the universal abstract concept of death itself.

Yeah, it's pretty fair to say they didn't tank it.

Not that it matters, Kuja can't just DBZ planet bust, it took prolonged blastin'.

Shit, at least go for good FFIX arguments, like how Zidane at full power is said to be superior to Kuja, who was able to tank Bahamut's Mega Flare like it was nothing, gosh.

They were fighting inside a dimension formed from the abstract parts of the collective consciousness of the planet. Them being dead is hardly the most likely explanation for what happened.


Oh well ok, if you insist.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by NemeBro
The screen fades when they are hit by it, ending the battle, and they proceed to fight the universal abstract concept of death itself.

Yeah, it's pretty fair to say they didn't tank it.

Not that it matters, Kuja can't just DBZ planet bust, it took prolonged blastin'.

Shit, at least go for good FFIX arguments, like how Zidane at full power is said to be superior to Kuja, who was able to tank Bahamut's Mega Flare like it was nothing, gosh.

Kuja never received a Mega Flare directly to his body. He rode on his Silver Dragon and escaped in time once an attack impacted and exploded near where he was standing. As for the Final Fantasy IX party, yeah, they've died.

Nephthys
Interpretations = fact now?

GrieverSquall
What do you mean?

Nephthys
Theres no proof the party died at the end, thats just an interpretation.

Enfathiel
Considering they, you know, had to be revived by Kuja.

But why does that even matter, that's way after Beatix owns them.

It's not like you're implying the FFIX part has planet-wrecking durability. Which is strange because when they're hit by Ultima, nothing is destroyed.

Anyway, I really need some Beatrix feats. I've shown tonnes for Cloud and have nothing to compare against.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres no proof the party died at the end, thats just an interpretation.

It's the most logical explanation, just as discussed in the Zidane versus Cloud thread, Neph. Your suggestions and points were already refuted. Bringing that subject into this fight for the sake of arguing is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Anyway, I really need some Beatrix feats. I've shown tonnes for Cloud and have nothing to compare against.

According to Beatrix, she killed 100 soldiers. And then, well, beat the party three times. That's it. We don't have anything to quantify.

Enfathiel
I've already posted the source material for Cloud's feats, but just a reminder than:

Strenght:

- Easily slices through chunks of buildings with an incomplete sword.

- Matches AC/C Sephiroth's sword strikes, which are strong enough to demolish shopping-mall sized metal structures in one blow, one-shot summons, cut of jenova's head, slice the mako cannon with after shocks and easily and completely break SOLDIER's swords.

- Easily cuts through crystalized mako with incomplate swords. He cut through Loz and Yazoo's constructs and even cut through the Omega Weapon's mako construct.

- Easily defeated Kadaj with one Braver - an opponet stated to be on the strenght or stronger than FFVII Sephiroth.

- Defeated Jenova DEATH alone.

- With a single sword, he re-sirected the Remnant's large bulding buster.


Speed:

- Easily bullet times while morbidly depressed and deathly ill. Not only that but reacts to two other high-end bullet timers at the same time.

- Easily reacts to Sephiroth's fastest incarnation, Sephiroth's weakest incarnation being able to: fly large parts of the world in minutes(It's implied he flew from Corel to Junon in less than 10 minutes), blitz Zack, who could dodge bullets while a teen and dodge omnidirectional fire.

- Has dodged lightning in Gaiea'a Cliffs and has dodged a lightning bolt summoned by Kadaj.

- Easily covers large parts of Midgar in moments during his fight with Sephiroth.

Durability:

- Tanked Bahamut Sin's Tremor Flare while deathly ill.

- Tanked a slash from FFVII Sephiroth.

- Tanked the mako explosion at the Northern Crater + the fall down to the core and a day in the lifestream.

- Tanked the remnant's large building buster.

- Tanked several punches from Loz.

SpadeKing
Originally posted by Enfathiel
Yes, he could. Second Class Zack and Turks were easily bullet-timing in the Before Crisis Era. FFVII Cloud is far above those people raching a certain point in the game.

It's just difficult to show with VII's cutscenes. But not with IX's.

That still won't help your case. FFVII Cloud was still above casual bullet-timers and has ridiculous tanking feats. Not to mention hurts Weapons, tades blows with Sephiroth and defeated Jenova DEATH all alone.


In the end, friend, you're taking style over substance. Even if you assume Beatrix was made again now, you'd have to prove she'd get as good a feats as Cloud and not say...Lightning, Vaan, or characters such as the Turks.

Ok wait what? confused

How was it not difficult to show with 9, they didn't even have an actual action cgi.

Cloud didn't dodge anything in FF7, he just walked away from bad aim. Idk what he tanked in the original game that was impressive. Weapons are optional bosses, that really leaves that as a featless option. Trades blows with Sephiroth.... In the original?.... Not that he had a party there with him when the fight happened or that the last 1 on 1 match was at all a mental thing. no expression

Well so far using JUST THE ORIGINAL FF7, what exactly has Cloud done really? Just like the assumption that if FF9 was to reboot or have some cgi movie she would have better feats, assume FF7 never had the extra games or movies but the creators still had in mind that Cloud was capable of such things.

TheAuraAngel
Honestly, even if we ignore the fact that FF7 has spinoffs, Cloud, through sheer use of logic, has better feats than Beatrix.

Enfathiel
How was it not difficult to show with 9, they didn't even have an actual action cgi.

"Action CGI"?

They showed Zidane in some pretty intense action at the Ilfa tree. And the summons.

But yet, ntohing of any substance that outweigh's VII.

Cloud didn't dodge anything in FF7, he just walked away from bad aim

The guards with machine-guns that fire 15 rounds a second just magicaly miss the guy? They're firing directly at him in the start of the game. He even dodged lightning in Gaea's Cliffs.

Not that It even matters, Before Crisis had no CG and Turks were easily dodging bullets.

And again, It's been established that the lowest of tiers in VII can dodge/block machine-gun fire.

Idk what he tanked in the original game that was impressive

1) A slash from FFVII Sephiroth. Keep in mind a weaker incarnation can one-shot summons, Fuhito-created monster and slice the Sister Ray with aftershocks.

2) The Mako Explosion at the northern Crater, the fall down to the core of the planet and a day in the lifestream.

There are more, but you get the picture.

Weapons are optional bosses, that really leaves that as a featless option.

?

FhuukY_xhXE

U36f_tZ7YLU

Trades blows with Sephiroth.... In the original?.... Not that he had a party there with him when the fight happened or that the last 1 on 1 match was at all a mental thing.


That's where you're mis-informed.

The end battle was Cloud and Sephiroth's spiritual aspects fighting in the lifestream, because Cloud enterd astral form and followed him there.

This is explained in Maiden and Case Of The Lifesteam - Black. And they even fought in a sword fight with their actual moves.

Which means It's how their fight happened in the real world. Just round 2 without help this time.

Well so far using JUST THE ORIGINAL FF7, what exactly has Cloud done really? Just like the assumption that if FF9 was to reboot or have some cgi movie she would have better feats, assume FF7 never had the extra games or movies but the creators still had in mind that Cloud was capable of such things.

What has he done? He's beaten casual bullet timers, he's hurt weapons, defeated Jenova's body parts, traded blows with Seph and tanked some seriously ridiculous stuff.

And you do have to understand, the extra games were the showcases for the other feats not because of the CGI. Some of the best feats, like Cloud fighting AC/C Seph or cuting the Omega Weapon would require no CGI. And Isn't that doing just what we said Tac should avoid doing? Assuming?

TacDavey
Originally posted by Enfathiel
And you do have to understand, the extra games were the showcases for the other feats not because of the CGI. Some of the best feats, like Cloud fighting AC/C Seph or cuting the Omega Weapon would require no CGI. And Isn't that doing just what we said Tac should avoid doing? Assuming?

If Cloud could do Advent Children feats in the original... why didn't he?

It's clear that Advent Children, and the recent touch ups of FF7, have changed in their fighting styles. Notice that Cloud had to climb up a pipe to get over a wall in the Midgar slums. Now I wonder why he didn't just run up it? Or better yet, cut through it?

Quite frankly, claiming that Cloud was suppose to be able to do Advent Children stunts in the original but couldn't is absurd. It's obvious there was a shift in style, the developers even admitted it in an interview.

The main problem you keep having is apparently not understanding my point. I'm not saying Beatrix necessarily can do what Cloud can do if she got a new movie or game. I'm saying there is no new movie or game, and as such we have to look else where to determine if she can fight Cloud or not. How do we do this? We go back to the characters before the fighting style change occurred.

Enfathiel
No, you're not getting my argument. I'm going to oversimplfy It in this:

I'm assuming that Beatrix can't do the feats FFVII chracters have no because of the style of the old game, but the susbtance. They don't have any feats with th substance of VII's.

You're assuming the latter feats don't count because their feats alledgedly came from a style change. Which is untrue because in BC(before AC/C) had such people as The Legend, a turk below the power of a SOLDIER, easily dodging Tseng's bullets. And Tseng himself was keeping up with him.

And because the latter games - after the style change- don't posses as good a feats.

In XI, XII, XIII or XIIIV no low tier is casually dodging machine-gun bullets or bullet-timing.

The feats didn't come from a style change, they came from the ability to finally show them. Substance over style.

But as we can see, all the newer games, even with the so-called "style change" don't get the feats VII gets.

Kuja9001
Originally posted by Nephthys
They were fighting inside a dimension formed from the abstract parts of the collective consciousness of the planet. Them being dead is hardly the most likely explanation for what happened.


Oh well ok, if you insist.

We squashed this discussion months ago.

Nephthys
I don't recall that ever happening.

Nephthys
"Necron's introductory speech.

"You stand before the final dimension, and I am the darkness of eternity..."

Kuja is controlled by fear. So he wants to destroy everything.

"The only cure for this fear is total destruction. Kuja was a victim of his own fear."

This just a theory. Now it has been proven by Kuja's action. Destruction is the end of all fears.

"To return everything back to the zero world...

...in a world of nothing, fear does not exist. This is the world that all life desires."



"If u look carefully he actually is "vaguely" mentioned. He is mentioned as the thing that earth summoned a long time ago. It isn't just Ark they were afraid of and in Oveliert, The magic place as you recall. If you lok at the walls when u meet the big globe there is a picture of him. It is hard to see cause of quality but he is there. I am a man of incredible observation.... See it for yourself if you have time... And let me know if you see him."



"Also the reason Necron came to beat all your asses is because if you actually read anything Kuja said in disc 3 you would understand Kuja said that the world wont exist without him meaning he would summon Necron to end the world. Necron also means death in Latin or Greek, something like that."




"castilogne knows what he's talking about. Everything else mentioned here is just speculation. Necron is the spiritual form of the Iifa Tree. Read up on what Garland says to Zidane about the soul cycle. He specifically mentions that Zidane only saw the "material form of the tree." Necron dies, the Iifa Tree dies. If Necron were irrelevant to the plot, the Iifa Tree exploding would have absolutely no purpose."



"To be honest, I always believed Necron to be the dark part of the Crystal. I mean, as he pretty much said, where there's life their's death. The Crystal grants life, so thus it grants death as well.

Yeah, kinda made more sense in my head."




Oh man, look at all these other theories I found on youtube! So awesome!

Kuja9001
Originally posted by Nephthys
"Also the reason Necron came to beat all your asses is because if you actually read anything Kuja said in disc 3 you would understand Kuja said that the world wont exist without him meaning he would summon Necron to end the world. Necron also means death in Latin or Greek, something like that."

No one knew Necron existed


Originally posted by Nephthys
"castilogne knows what he's talking about. Everything else mentioned here is just speculation. Necron is the spiritual form of the Iifa Tree. Read up on what Garland says to Zidane about the soul cycle. He specifically mentions that Zidane only saw the "material form of the tree." Necron dies, the Iifa Tree dies. If Necron were irrelevant to the plot, the Iifa Tree exploding would have absolutely no purpose."

lol Iifa tree theory

Nephthys
Originally posted by Kuja9001
No one knew Necron existed




lol Iifa tree theory


Really? Well I suppose you saying so is good enough.

lol Iifa tree theory counter-argument.

Kuja9001
Originally posted by Nephthys
Really? Well I suppose you saying so is good enough.

lol Iifa tree theory counter-argument.

1. The party is clueless about him.

2. I don't even need a counter argument to prove the Iifa Tree theory false.

Nephthys
Oh 'the party?' Yes, what bastions of scholarship! I'm sure they know everything in the world. Them not knowing about Necron sure does prove no-one else did. thumb up

NemeBro
You guys are all ****ing stupid.

Seriously, who the **** cares?

Nephthys
http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/04087.gif

Shoosh Pap.

Enfathiel
Originally posted by NemeBro
You guys are all ****ing stupid.

Seriously, who the **** cares?

Hmm. What?

TheAuraAngel
I post got no attention. sad

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Nephthys
"If u look carefully he actually is "vaguely" mentioned. He is mentioned as the thing that earth summoned a long time ago. It isn't just Ark they were afraid of and in Oveliert, The magic place as you recall. If you lok at the walls when u meet the big globe there is a picture of him. It is hard to see cause of quality but he is there. I am a man of incredible observation.... See it for yourself if you have time... And let me know if you see him."

Incorrect, Necron is not mentioned at all. In Oeilvert, there are visages that are connected to a wall and they just resemble Necron's face since they were developed by Terrans.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"Also the reason Necron came to beat all your asses is because if you actually read anything Kuja said in disc 3 you would understand Kuja said that the world wont exist without him meaning he would summon Necron to end the world. Necron also means death in Latin or Greek, something like that."

As Kuja9001 mentioned earlier, no one really knew about Necron's existence, except maybe Garland who is the one who built the Iifa Tree and its mechanisms to begin with. Neither no one had knowledge about the Hill Of Despair where Necron resides.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"castilogne knows what he's talking about. Everything else mentioned here is just speculation. Necron is the spiritual form of the Iifa Tree. Read up on what Garland says to Zidane about the soul cycle. He specifically mentions that Zidane only saw the "material form of the tree." Necron dies, the Iifa Tree dies. If Necron were irrelevant to the plot, the Iifa Tree exploding would have absolutely no purpose."

Exactly, that's why the party needed to die in order to encounter Necron. Spiritual means no physical world.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"To be honest, I always believed Necron to be the dark part of the Crystal. I mean, as he pretty much said, where there's life their's death. The Crystal grants life, so thus it grants death as well.

Necron's sole purpose was to end all life, thus he attempted to destroy the Crystal. So if he's supposed to be a part of it, that would be mean that he would be also destroying himself, which is more than ridiculous. He does not form part of the Crystal. He may be an antithesis of life, but he does not form part of it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh man, look at all these other theories I found on youtube! So awesome!

Why do you insist in bringing up this discussion? This has nothing to do with Beatrix and Cloud in the slightest.

TacDavey
Originally posted by Enfathiel
No, you're not getting my argument. I'm going to oversimplfy It in this:

I'm assuming that Beatrix can't do the feats FFVII chracters have no because of the style of the old game, but the susbtance. They don't have any feats with th substance of VII's.

You're assuming the latter feats don't count because their feats alledgedly came from a style change. Which is untrue because in BC(before AC/C) had such people as The Legend, a turk below the power of a SOLDIER, easily dodging Tseng's bullets. And Tseng himself was keeping up with him.

And because the latter games - after the style change- don't posses as good a feats.

In XI, XII, XIII or XIIIV no low tier is casually dodging machine-gun bullets or bullet-timing.

The feats didn't come from a style change, they came from the ability to finally show them. Substance over style.

But as we can see, all the newer games, even with the so-called "style change" don't get the feats VII gets.

That just isn't true, though. As I pointed out, Cloud had to climb a metal pole in FF7. If he was suppose to be able to do Advent Children feats, he should have been able to run up it or even cut through the wall. That would not have been hard to animate at all. In fact, it would have been easier than animating a climb sequence.

TheAuraAngel
I do not recall Cloud ever having to climb a pole. I thought it was "a golden shiny wire of hope." Unless we're thinking of two different minigames.

Not that it would matter. Climbing 50 meters is pretty freaking impressive. I couldn't do it.

That said, Cloud can slice through metal. Have not seen Beatrix do so.

Edit: Has anyone ever calced the weight of Cloud's sword? mmm

Enfathiel
Originally posted by TacDavey
That just isn't true, though. As I pointed out, Cloud had to climb a metal pole in FF7. If he was suppose to be able to do Advent Children feats, he should have been able to run up it or even cut through the wall. That would not have been hard to animate at all. In fact, it would have been easier than animating a climb sequence.

Why are you taking these little moments in the game(and minigames which are there for diversity), which are mostly there for humor and to diverge from the gritty storyline as face evidence of what a character can do?

Cloud wanted to charge in Don Corneo's mansion to save Tifa, but the game made you do this whole convoluted mission to look like a girl because It's fun.

They think the same about a climbing sequence. And Cloud can easily slash through metal as well, **** he slashed Jenova frickin' DEATH which is a part of the body that tanked the impact and explosion that produced the Northern Crater.

Kuja9001
Can we just end this? Beatrix is my favorite Ff Female but she won't beat cloud. We have two different topics going on, one about the actual topic and another about Necron(Which was squashed months ago).

Nephthys
You guys want an actual reply on that? I thought we were just joking around.

Nice replies to the good folks on youtube btw. I'm sure you crushed their delicate egos with your biting retorts.

TacDavey
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I do not recall Cloud ever having to climb a pole. I thought it was "a golden shiny wire of hope." Unless we're thinking of two different minigames.

Not that it would matter. Climbing 50 meters is pretty freaking impressive. I couldn't do it.

That said, Cloud can slice through metal. Have not seen Beatrix do so.

Edit: Has anyone ever calced the weight of Cloud's sword? mmm

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Why are you taking these little moments in the game(and minigames which are there for diversity), which are mostly there for humor and to diverge from the gritty storyline as face evidence of what a character can do?

Cloud wanted to charge in Don Corneo's mansion to save Tifa, but the game made you do this whole convoluted mission to look like a girl because It's fun.

They think the same about a climbing sequence. And Cloud can easily slash through metal as well, **** he slashed Jenova frickin' DEATH which is a part of the body that tanked the impact and explosion that produced the Northern Crater.

It wasn't a mini-game at all. I think it's a short time after the mansion where Cloud has to climb up out of the slums. At the start, he climbs a pipe to get to the top of a wall. No mini game, it was all story. If what you're saying is true, and Cloud was suppose to be able to perform Advent Children feats, he should have been able to just run right up the wall. Or jump it. Both options would have been easier to animate. Yet they didn't.

Enfathiel
Originally posted by TacDavey
It wasn't a mini-game at all. I think it's a short time after the mansion where Cloud has to climb up out of the slums. At the start, he climbs a pipe to get to the top of a wall. No mini game, it was all story. If what you're saying is true, and Cloud was suppose to be able to perform Advent Children feats, he should have been able to just run right up the wall. Or jump it. Both options would have been easier to animate. Yet they didn't.

Same difference really. And he could obviusly do that. You can't just ignore how low-tier people in FFVII can easily block/dodge bullets and solo summons such as Bahamut/Ifrit.

And same difference, the plot created a subplot for you going around dressign up as a girl in the story It'self. Why not one for climbing instead of him just leaping 50 meters up in the air?

Also, you're assuming FFVII is homegenuous in his power. He only really acheives a level comparable to people such as EoS Zack or FFVII Sephiroth after the Lifestream Sequence.

Of course, he's much stronger in AC/C, as stated by Sephiroth.

TheAuraAngel
Not to mention the developers of FF VII were not trying to make a silly cartoon. Would have failed if they literally let Cloud run up a wall or use a super jump.

But that would be hilarious.

TacDavey
Originally posted by Enfathiel
Same difference really. And he could obviusly do that. You can't just ignore how low-tier people in FFVII can easily block/dodge bullets and solo summons such as Bahamut/Ifrit.

And same difference, the plot created a subplot for you going around dressign up as a girl in the story It'self. Why not one for climbing instead of him just leaping 50 meters up in the air?

Also, you're assuming FFVII is homegenuous in his power. He only really acheives a level comparable to people such as EoS Zack or FFVII Sephiroth after the Lifestream Sequence.

Of course, he's much stronger in AC/C, as stated by Sephiroth.

But it wasn't a mini game. You didn't even have to press any buttons. So your comparison to the dress up mini game is flawed. Why would they go out of their way to make extra animation so they could make a character do something they had always intended that he didn't have to do? It makes absolutely no sense.

You think the life stream incident made Cloud go from not being able to run up walls to being able to? That's a SIGNIFICANT leap in power. You have to back that one up.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Not to mention the developers of FF VII were not trying to make a silly cartoon. Would have failed if they literally let Cloud run up a wall or use a super jump.

But that would be hilarious.

Silly? That's what they had him do in Advent Children, and according to Enfathiel that's what they always intended him to be able to do.

Enfathiel
Originally posted by TacDavey But it wasn't a mini game. You didn't even have to press any buttons. So your comparison to the dress up mini game is flawed. Why would they go out of their way to make extra animation so they could make a character do something they had always intended that he didn't have to do? It makes absolutely no sense.

You know, for one post this instance to prove your point.

For second, why not, It's certainly more fun thatn seeing the guy jump up. And Cloud has never leapt over 50 meters in the air. That's too high even for him and he can't fly. For third, only AC/C, the strongest incarnation of the character, is seen pseudo-flying. And only top-tiers like Genesis or Sephiroth as well.

Cloud's power isin't static throught out VII, and that's something you are ridiculously impying.

Originally posted by TacDavey You think the life stream incident made Cloud go from not being able to run up walls to being able to? That's a SIGNIFICANT leap in power. You have to back that one up.

Lol. To begin with, the Cloud that cimbed the Slums was nowhere near close to Cloud at the end game. That right there destroys your entire premise.

For second, learn something about FFVII, is that mako is one of the powe-rsources for top-tiers, and Cloud had just absorbed a ton more for spending an entire day in pure lifestream current(something that killed CC Sephiroth).

For third, the party gradually gets stronger as the game goes, you're saying that because FFVII can't jump very high we should discredit every single compilation feat. Which is, of course, ridiculous.

Some of Cloud's best feats are in the original game. Like fighting Weapons, tanking a slash from Sephiroth, dodging lightning, defeatign Jenova DEATH alone, surviving the Northern Crater's explosion, a day in the lifestream...

These are fats his stronger self in AC/C has not shown, yet do we just assume he can't do them?

Originally posted by TacDavey Silly? That's what they had him do in Advent Children, and according to Enfathiel that's what they always intended him to be able to do.

If you notice, a weakened Cloud in the movie dosen't move like he does against Sephiroth in the end.

Because a weaker version of Cloud can't do what a stronger version of Cloud does, you say all his feats are null?

Please. No one will buy that.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by TacDavey
Silly? That's what they had him do in Advent Children, and according to Enfathiel that's what they always intended him to be able to do.

Yes silly. In fact, if you're not drawn in by it, the scenes from Advent Children are very silly.

But of course, since I'm talking to someone who thinks Cloud should be as strong as he was 2 years agao, I can't be surprised. Time skips usually mean the characters get stronger. If we go by Crisis Core, even they don't do the silly things being done in Advent Children. Or at least, as noticiable.

However, since you made the thread, I fail to see why Advent Children matters at all. Just say "Cloud when he battled Safer-Sephiroth." This is before AC, before the time skip and Cloud's subsequent powering up, but considers CC to be in full canon because it was a modern depiction of a time before said time skip.

Or you can ignore that and let it just be Cloud minus whatever feats you don't like vs Beatrix. In which case, Cloud will always lose to bias. smile

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