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Lucifer for the stomp

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
Lucifer for the stomp

what exactly are his powers? magic, cosmic, reality warping or what?

Lucifer all day everyday

Lucifer Morningstar FTW

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
what exactly are his powers? magic, cosmic, reality warping or what?

Nigh Omnipotence, he has built two universes from the released Demiurge power (crafting the galaxies and stars and planets etc).

Lucifer

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
what exactly are his powers? magic, cosmic, reality warping or what?
His power is being better than you in every conceivable way.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
His power is being better than you in every conceivable way.

Lucifer is the Goddamn Batman?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Lucifer is the Goddamn Batman?
Yes, an aspect at least.

Even 238 jasers was an omniversal threat.

IMO 616 MJJ would be able to take this.

Lucifer.

mr. morning.

Originally posted by galactusischere
IMO 616 MJJ would be able to take this.



True, I don't see any reason why Jaspers couldn't take it in the ass!!!

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
True, I don't see any reason why Jaspers couldn't take it in the ass!!!

And may I ask what Lucy has done that puts him above Jaspers?

Originally posted by galactusischere
And may I ask what Lucy has done that puts him above Jaspers? as ive heard, him and micheal toghther are responsible for all creation

Lucy was hurt by a freaking KNIFE in Sandman: Endless nights. I don't get why he is so hyped up on these forums.

Originally posted by galactusischere
Lucy was hurt by a freaking KNIFE in Sandman: Endless nights. I don't get why he is so hyped up on these forums. could of been pis, but he and micheal are responsible for the dcu multiverse.
this is like eternity being cut by a knife..

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
could of been pis, but he and micheal are responsible for the dcu multiverse.
this is like eternity being cut by a knife..

When was Eternity cut by a regular knife?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Lucifer is the Goddamn Batman?

Kind of. For all of Lucifers powers, most of his best feats involved him using his intelligence.

He's one of the very few characters who can outprep Thanos, IMO.

Originally posted by galactusischere
Lucy was hurt by a freaking KNIFE in Sandman: Endless nights. I don't get why he is so hyped up on these forums.

And he's destroyed dimensions by simply being in them.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
And he's destroyed dimensions by simply being in them.

Good one.

And it was in a formless void that Lucifer took the multiverse level explosion from Michael, while MJJ was basically helpless in a similar environment.

Lucifer makes MJJ kill himself.

Originally posted by galactusischere
Lucy was hurt by a freaking KNIFE in Sandman: Endless nights. I don't get why he is so hyped up on these forums.
I'm pretty sure in certain dimensions he's powerless. That was probably the case in the incident you're referring to. Its no more a strike against his power than it would be for MJJ if someone shanked him in Unspace.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
And he's destroyed dimensions by simply being in them.

And that is supposed to be impressive?

Originally posted by cdtm
Kind of. For all of Lucifers powers, most of his best feats involved him using his intelligence.

He's one of the very few characters who can outprep Thanos, IMO.
I don't think he'd even need prep per se. He can think on his feet better than Thanos can and could probably throw a wrench in whatever works Thanos has planned.

Originally posted by galactusischere
And that is supposed to be impressive?
MJJ actually has to put some effort into doing things like that.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
MJJ actually has to put some effort into doing things like that.

The point is that even Shuma Gorath was said to be able to do that.

Plus even 238 Jaspers was an omniversal threat, and 616 Jaspers was even MORe powerful.

Originally posted by galactusischere
The point is that even Shuma Gorath was said to be able to do that.

Plus even 238 Jaspers was an omniversal threat, and 616 Jaspers was even MORe powerful.
And birds go tweet. Lucifer could easily trick Jaspers or simply overpower him.

Don't forget all Lucifer has to do is send Jaspers to Unspace.

Lucifer can tank multiversal big bangs from ground zero, without so much as a scratch to show for it. Wtf do you really think MJJ can do to harm him?

Originally posted by Galan007
Lucifer can tank multiversal big bangs from ground zero, without so much as a scratch to show for it. Wtf do you really think MJJ can do to harm him?
Spit bullets.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lucifer can tank multiversal big bangs from ground zero, without so much as a scratch to show for it. Wtf do you really think MJJ can do to harm him?

In Sandman: Season of Mists, Lucy was hurt when Dream(I think) cut off his wings with a regular knife. And it happened in his realm too.

My bad, it happened in Season of Mists.

^ By 'regular knife' do you mean the dagger that Lucifer himself gave to Dream when the were both in Hell? If so, you're digging deep with that one.

I can easily counter that line of logic with the "Lucifer dumps his b*tch ass into unspace, ftw!" argument.... But I won't.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ By 'regular knife' do you mean the dagger that Lucifer himself gave to Dream when the were both in Hell? If so, you're digging deep with that one.

I can easily counter that line of logic with the "Lucifer dumps his b*tch ass into unspace, ftw!" argument.... But I won't.
Come on, do it. You know you want to.

I took the time to upload the scans...for the people that don't believe me:

1- http://img10.imageshack.us/i/sandman2321.jpg/
2- http://img151.imageshack.us/i/sandman2322.jpg/
3- http://img46.imageshack.us/i/sandman2323.jpg/

Nowhere was it mentioned that the knife that was used on Lucy was magically/cosmically powered.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ By 'regular knife' do you mean the dagger that Lucifer himself gave to Dream when the were both in Hell? If so, you're digging deep with that one.

I can easily counter that line of logic with the "Lucifer dumps his b*tch ass into unspace, ftw!" argument.... But I won't.

And how would Lucy do that to 616 MJJ? It's not like Jaspers would just sit there and let Lucifer dump him into unspace.

Originally posted by galactusischere
And that is supposed to be impressive?

Yes. Shuma-Gorath has never done that. When Strange returned to the normal universe with Shuma's energies, his presence could destroy galaxies. That's not as impressive because all it did was physically destroy galaxies. Lucifer's presence in the realm of Tsukuyomi destroyed the very fabric of the realm. A better comparison would be Darkseid's presence and death in Final Crisis, which was destroying time and space.

Originally posted by galactusischere
I took the time to upload the scans...for the people that don't believe me:

1- http://img10.imageshack.us/i/sandman2321.jpg/
2- http://img151.imageshack.us/i/sandman2322.jpg/
3- http://img46.imageshack.us/i/sandman2323.jpg/

Nowhere was it mentioned that the knife that was used on Lucy was magically/cosmically powered.

And Lucifer let him because he wanted to have his wings cut off. It was a symbolic act.

Jaspers, easily.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
And he's destroyed dimensions by simply being in them.

Yet Tsukuyomi's realm wasn't nearly as big as a universe.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Spit bullets. What does he have to eat to get that ability?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
What does he have to eat to get that ability?
Your balls. Better watch out.

Originally posted by galactusischere
Lucy was hurt by a freaking KNIFE in Sandman: Endless nights. I don't get why he is so hyped up on these forums. Which story was he included into in the Endless Nights?
Each of the Endless got a story, but I don't recall Lucifer being in any of them offhand.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Yet Tsukuyomi's realm wasn't nearly as big as a universe.

So? Lucifer was destroying the fabric of Tsukuyomi's realm without effort. He couldn't even enter the realm without it happening, which is why he sent his "minions". Jaspers has to put effort into it.

Originally posted by Juntai
Which story was he included into in the Endless Nights?
Each of the Endless got a story, but I don't recall Lucifer being in any of them offhand.

Originally posted by galactusischere
In Sandman: Season of Mists, Lucy was hurt when Dream(I think) cut off his wings with a regular knife. And it happened in his realm too. Originally posted by galactusischere
My bad, it happened in Season of Mists. Originally posted by galactusischere
I took the time to upload the scans...for the people that don't believe me:

1- http://img10.imageshack.us/i/sandman2321.jpg/
2- http://img151.imageshack.us/i/sandman2322.jpg/
3- http://img46.imageshack.us/i/sandman2323.jpg/

Nowhere was it mentioned that the knife that was used on Lucy was magically/cosmically powered.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
So? Lucifer was destroying the fabric of Tsukuyomi's realm without effort. He couldn't even enter the realm without it happening, which is why he sent his "minions". Jaspers has to put effort into it.

So that is a crappy feat and it is not worthy of being mentioned here.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
So that is a crappy feat and it is not worthy of being mentioned here.

How is that a crappy feat? He was so powerful he was breaking down space-time. All of Jasper's reality-warping effects require him to apply his power. If Jaspers was brain-dead, the world would stay the same.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
How is that a crappy feat? He was so powerful he was breaking down space-time. All of Jasper's reality-warping effects require him to apply his power. If Jaspers was brain-dead, the world would stay the same.
Don't bother with him. The guy thinks Apocalypse can beat Darkseid for crying out loud.

Yet Jaspers made Eternity his ***** effortlesly.

None of Lucy's feats are even close to Jaspers'.
And I like to go by ACTUAL feats.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Yet Jaspers made Eternity his ***** effortlesly.

None of Lucy's feats are even close to Jaspers'.
And I like to go by ACTUAL feats.

Creating multiverses is not an actual feat?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Don't bother with him. The guy thinks Apocalypse can beat Darkseid for crying out loud.

And you think Wonder Woman can beat Apocalypse. Wonder Woman who doesn't job, yet gets punked by Poision Ivy. Hmmm...

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Creating multiverses is not an actual feat?

He had Mike's power.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
And you think Wonder Woman can beat Apocalypse. Wonder Woman who doesn't job, yet gets punked by Poision Ivy. Hmmm...
She can defeat Apocalypse. Also Poison Ivy isn't a street leveler anymore, she's a plant manipulator connected with the Green, a being on Swamp Thing's level.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
He had Mike's power.

Well, he was creating a multiverse outside of creation. An entirely seperate continuum. That's a little different than simply creating another universe in the existing DCU..


And besides, he still crafted it himself and created the concepts himself, like time..

Originally posted by Omega Vision
She can defeat Apocalypse. Also Poison Ivy isn't a street leveler anymore, she's a plant manipulator connected with the Green, a being on Swamp Thing's level.

Are you serious?
Don't try to trick me, I've been reading Gotham City Sirens, so I know fully well what she is capable of.

As for the scans of WW getting her ass kicked by Cheshire and PI.

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss79/MoseyGod/Cheshire.jpg
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss79/MoseyGod/Cheshire2.jpg
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss79/MoseyGod/Cheshire3.jpg
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss79/MoseyGod/Cheshire4.jpg
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss79/MoseyGod/Cheshire5.jpg
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss79/MoseyGod/Cheshire6.jpg

Even Jobberclypse wouldn't be harmed by their attacks...

Originally posted by TheTyrant
He had Mike's power.

So? He needed the raw material because he can't make something from nothing. He still had to create all of the stars and galaxies, not to mention set all the physical laws of the universe and differentiate the Demiurgic Power into dark matter and anti-matter and all that jazz. He didn't copy all of that, he had to make it up on his own.

Originally posted by cdtm
Well, he was creating a multiverse outside of creation. An entirely seperate continuum. That's a little different than simply creating another universe in the existing DCU..


And besides, he still crafted it himself and created the concepts himself, like time..

Which isn't even on Eternity's level. And Eternity was made into Jasper's little beatch.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Are you serious?
Don't try to trick me, I've been reading Gotham City Sirens, so I know fully well what she is capable of.

As for the scans of WW getting her ass kicked by Cheshire and PI.

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss79/MoseyGod/Cheshire.jpg
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss79/MoseyGod/Cheshire2.jpg
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss79/MoseyGod/Cheshire3.jpg
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss79/MoseyGod/Cheshire4.jpg
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss79/MoseyGod/Cheshire5.jpg
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss79/MoseyGod/Cheshire6.jpg

Even Jobberclypse wouldn't be harmed by their attacks...


I agree with you completely.

But this thread has nothing to do with either of them.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Which isn't even on Eternity's level. And Eternity was made into Jasper's little beatch.

Really? Eternity can create multiverses out of undifferented god-stuff? Evidence demanded.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Really? Eternity can create multiverses out of undifferented god-stuff? Evidence demanded.

I've seen the scan. Maybe somebody can post it...?

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Really? Eternity can create multiverses out of undifferented god-stuff? Evidence demanded.
Originally posted by TheTyrant
I've seen the scan. Maybe somebody can post it...?

Defenders volume 3.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/721892/etpf1.jpg.html

Originally posted by galactusischere
Defenders volume 3.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/721892/etpf1.jpg.html

LOL. That scan says nothing of the sort.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
LOL. That scan says nothing of the sort.

It says that Eternity is the sum of EVERYTHING within reality.
That feat easily puts him at the multi-versal + range.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
LOL. That scan says nothing of the sort.

Are you serious? It DIRECTLY states that Eternity is the sum of ALL THINGS.

A universe doesn't have universal power because it contains itself. Throwing out a definition of what Eternity is doesn't mean anything. Franklin Richards and Leech are both mutants; does that mean they have the same power? Nothing in that scan states that Eternity can create multiverses under his own power out of something that has no material form.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow


A universe doesn't have universal power because it contains itself. Throwing out a definition of what Eternity is doesn't mean anything. Franklin Richards and Leech are both mutants; does that mean they have the same power? Nothing in that scan states that Eternity can create multiverses under his own power out of something that has no material form.

It states that Eternity is the sum of every universe within the omniverse, and that is that. You can't deny an actual 100% canon scan, now can you?

Originally posted by TheTyrant
It states that Eternity is the sum of every universe within the omniverse, and that is that. You can't deny an actual 100% canon scan, now can you?

Again...

Who cares?

That scan says nothing about whether Eternity can create a multiverse. You're pretty desperate.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Again...

Who cares?

That scan says nothing about whether Eternity can create a multiverse. You're pretty desperate.

He is the multi-verse. Why would he want to create another one? Also, he created Galacti across the multi-verse to keep Abraxas in check.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
He is the multi-verse. Why would he want to create another one? Also, he created Galacti across the multi-verse to keep Abraxas in check.

Avoiding the question again. I want evidence that Eternity can create a multiverse with his own power, not evidence that Eternity is a metaphysical representation of the multiverse.

A pretty bad job, considering that only one Galactus (Earth-616) needed to die in order to release him.

IIRC, Galactus was the sole survivor of the previous universe..even older than Eternity itself. How could Eternity have created him?....unless I'm missing a retcon of some kind.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Avoiding the question again. I want evidence that Eternity can create a multiverse with his own power, not evidence that Eternity is a metaphysical representation of the multiverse.


I never claimed such thing.
All I said was that Jaspers EASILY replicated Lucy's feat. AND he did it completely under his own power.

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
IIRC, Galactus was the sole survivor of the previous universe..even older than Eternity itself. How could Eternity have created him?....unless I'm missing a retcon of some kind.

He created every Galactus...other than 616. 616 Galactus is the only one that is older than time and space.

Eternity is IMO older than he is BTW, as he is the sum of everything throughout the multi-verse.

some people are just f*cking stupid. srsly

Originally posted by TheTyrant
I never claimed such thing.
All I said was that Jaspers EASILY replicated Lucy's feat. AND he did it completely under his own power.

Evidence that Jaspers created multiple multiverses out of primordial energy.

Originally posted by john allerdyce
some people are just f*cking stupid. srsly

How the **** is anybody be stupid here? We are discussing fictional characters that do not exist. People are free to have their opinions.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
How the **** is anybody be stupid here? read the thread... it will all become clear.

I think heis talking about thread name since there is no star.

As for the thread itself, Lucy has the best feats. He can easily tank a muti-universal creation attack like nothing; no scratch whatsoever. Of course, Galen has already stated this, but most people continue to try a lowball or ignore th feat. Nevertheless, Lucy can just BFR MJJ.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Evidence that Jaspers created multiple multiverses out of primordial energy.

He hasn't.

Now proof that Luifer can warp the omniverse, make the multi-verse + the universal abstracts his beatch?

Originally posted by TheTyrant
He hasn't.

Now proof that Luifer can warp the omniverse, make the multi-verse + the universal abstracts his beatch?

You do understand him and Michael created a multi-verse...twice

Originally posted by xJLxKing


You do understand him and Michael created a multi-verse...twice

When was the second time?

Lucifer in a stomp fest.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
When was the second time?
First-Time was in beginning of time, right? Second time is when he created a separate universe using Michael again.

Lucifer

Multiverse =/= omniverse

Eternity rarely (if ever) appears in his multiversal form. The Eternity we usually see is just the representation of 616 time and spac.e

Eternity represents a multiverse in his totality, not the omniverse, as it's been stated the other multiverses have abstract features (and as such, abstract entities) that are unrecognisable to those within 616.

ANYWAY, this all being said, Lucifer can just do to Jasper's what he did to the giants who received God's power, by nuking Jaspers when he was a powerless child.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
First-Time was in beginning of time, right? Second time is when he created a separate universe using Michael again.

Plus, he coached Eliane Belloc into making her own universe. Kind of hard to coach someone without experience..

multi eternity is far older than galactus. its 616 universe eternity which is younger than big g

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
multi eternity is far older than galactus. its 616 universe eternity which is younger than big g

We can't say that for sure, for all we know every universe in each multiverse is on the same time cycle.

As in, there was a previous multiverse, which contained Galan's universe, then that entire multiverse came to the end of it's life cycle, then from the Crunch of that multiverse came the current multiverse, containing the current 616 universe.

Eternity was created the same time LT was.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
We can't say that for sure, for all we know every universe in each multiverse is on the same time cycle.

As in, there was a previous multiverse, which contained Galan's universe, then that entire multiverse came to the end of it's life cycle, then from the Crunch of that multiverse came the current multiverse, containing the current 616 universe. i thought i was only 1 universe?

Jaspers doesn't win here

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
i thought i was only 1 universe?

Well, it was the previous 616 universe, which would logically be in a previous 616 multiverse, if that makes sense.

I mean, we usually see parallel universes being on the same time scale, so it would make sense that as Galan's universe was dying at the end of creation, so to would the other universes within that multiverse.

Meh, it doesn't matter, either way Lucifer is stomping here.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Well, it was the previous 616 universe, which would logically be in a previous 616 multiverse, if that makes sense.

I mean, we usually see parallel universes being on the same time scale, so it would make sense that as Galan's universe was dying at the end of creation, so to would the other universes within that multiverse.

Meh, it doesn't matter, either way Lucifer is stomping here. but isnt there an alternate universe where galan never became galactus?

Originally posted by TheTyrant
He hasn't.

Now proof that Luifer can warp the omniverse, make the multi-verse + the universal abstracts his beatch?

Jasper warps are a side-effect of the use of his powers. Not even 616-Jaspers can warp the omniverse at his whim.

Lucifer is stated to be the second most-powerful being in universe. He's created multiple multiverses from nothing more than undifferentiated energy, and they've survived the test of time. He's destroyed the dimension of Tsukuyomi by passing through it. He's tanked the release of the Demiurgic power from Michael (which would have annihilated all of creation). Death of the Endless admitted that she had no power over him.

whos eternity girlfriend?
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/57606/1173704-make_out.jpg

The funniest thing people bring up in MJJ threads is,
"he can just bfr him to unspace"

As if that shit is so easy.

Lucifer created a Universe then he claimed it was a Multiverse. Nice.
Lucifer tanked a Multiversal big bang without a scratch. Nice.

Matrix/Merlyn created an Omniversal Nexus (Starlight Citadel)
(an infinite monitor & passage way to all Universes in Marvel)

Matrix/Merlyn created the Celestial Nullifier
(it can erase any Universe in the Omniverse)

Matrix/Merlyn created Otherworld
(a magical Universe)

Matrix/Merlyn has toyed with he prime Multiverse just to train Roma
(he did this with a chess board which he connected the prime Multiverse's life-force to)

238 MJJ >>> Matrix/Merlyn

616 MJJ >>> 238 MJJ

The major difference between 616 & 238 Jaspers, is durability,
but both were capable of Omniversal dominance.

Luckily for ALL Reality though, there was his personal plot device (the Fury) to stop him.

The ONLY thing in all creation in that arc that could stop Jaspers.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow

Nothing in that scan states that Eternity can create multiverses under his own power out of something that has no material form.


Multiverses (as in what, two?) if that.

While 616 Eternity in the scan is witnessed by Dormy
killing and recreating entire Universes all day,
and actually having the power to rebirth ALL UniverseS!!

All UniverseS sure sounds like the Omniverse.

Not to mention that Roma herself during the Abraxas arc stated that Eternity contains "everything that ever was, is or will be"

What do you think "everything that ever was, is or will be" is to Roma?

Uhh, the Omniverse anyone? Since she like guards it with the CN.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Jasper warps are a side-effect of the use of his powers. Not even 616-Jaspers can warp the omniverse at his whim.

Lucifer is stated to be the second most-powerful being in universe. He's created multiple multiverses from nothing more than undifferentiated energy, and they've survived the test of time. He's destroyed the dimension of Tsukuyomi by passing through it. He's tanked the release of the Demiurgic power from Michael (which would have annihilated all of creation). Death of the Endless admitted that she had no power over him.

Lucifer isn't the second most powerful in his universe. Mandrakk and CA Superman are more powerful than him. Same goes for the Ultimator and WF Mxy.

He's created multiple multiverses from nothing more than undifferentiated energy, and they've survived the test of time. He's destroyed the dimension of Tsukuyomi by passing through it. He's tanked the release of the Demiurgic power from Michael (which would have annihilated all of creation). Death of the Endless admitted that she had no power over him.

And?
You speak as if Jaspers wouldn't survive that and Death had power over him.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish

Meh, it doesn't matter, either way Lucifer is stomping here.

Based on nothing? Jaspers stabs Lucy FTW.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Lucifer isn't the second most powerful in his universe. Mandrakk and CA Superman are more powerful than him. Same goes for the Ultimator and WF Mxy.

He's created multiple multiverses from nothing more than undifferentiated energy, and they've survived the test of time. He's destroyed the dimension of Tsukuyomi by passing through it. He's tanked the release of the Demiurgic power from Michael (which would have annihilated all of creation). Death of the Endless admitted that she had no power over him.

And?
You speak as if Jaspers wouldn't survive that and Death had power over him.

Last time I'm responding to your sorry ass.

Lucifer is stated to be the second most-powerful being in existence (or at least within the DC universe). He's more powerful than his brother because he has greater control over his own abilities. Mandrakk couldn't take on the Supermen of the Multiverse (who only hit him with their laser vision). CA Superman died after pushing Mandrakk off that cliff. Sure both of them are up there, but they don't have the feats to surpass Lucifer. They don't even have the exposure and only appeared in Final Crisis.

WF is not canon. Ultimator never existed.

Both 616 and 238-Jaspers died.

Since either you either ignore my points or go off-topic, I don't expect a competent response.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Last time I'm responding to your sorry ass.

Lucifer is stated to be the second most-powerful being in existence (or at least within the DC universe). He's more powerful than his brother because he has greater control over his own abilities. Mandrakk couldn't take on the Supermen of the Multiverse (who only hit him with their laser vision). CA Superman died after pushing Mandrakk off that cliff. Sure both of them are up there, but they don't have the feats to surpass Lucifer. They don't even have the exposure and only appeared in Final Crisis.

WF is not canon. Ultimator never existed.

Both 616 and 238-Jaspers died.

Since either you either ignore my points or go off-topic, I don't expect a competent response.

K.

Hmm...weren't you the one that was claiming Mandrakk was more powerful than the Tribunal? And somehow Lucy is EVEN MORE powerful?
BTW I was talking about FC Superman Beyond Mandrakk.

Except neither 238 or 616 Jaspers truly died.

You haven't given me any valid proof to how Lucy would win. I have. So, I would say that my points are more competent than yours.

Also, read Mr Master's post.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Last time I'm responding to your sorry ass.

Lucifer is stated to be the second most-powerful being in existence (or at least within the DC universe). He's more powerful than his brother because he has greater control over his own abilities. Mandrakk couldn't take on the Supermen of the Multiverse (who only hit him with their laser vision). CA Superman died after pushing Mandrakk off that cliff. Sure both of them are up there, but they don't have the feats to surpass Lucifer. They don't even have the exposure and only appeared in Final Crisis.

WF is not canon. Ultimator never existed.

Both 616 and 238-Jaspers died.

Since either you either ignore my points or go off-topic, I don't expect a competent response.
CA Superman>Lucy same goes with Mandrakk.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
CA Superman>Lucy same goes with Mandrakk. Cilver Age Superman?

Cosmic Armor Superman. The one that appeared in FC

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Cosmic Armor Superman. The one that appeared in FC

But we really don't know enough about the Prime Monitor. For all we know, it's just another component of the main DCU creation, created by Lucifer and Michael..

I'm guessing we'll never see nor hear about the Prime Monitor again anyways, and it's nature in the cosmic hierarchy will forever be unanswered..

LOriginally posted by cdtm
But we really don't know enough about the Prime Monitor. For all we know, it's just another component of the main DCU creation, created by Lucifer and Michael..

I'm guessing we'll never see nor hear about the Prime Monitor again anyways, and it's nature in the cosmic hierarchy will forever be unanswered.. Actually, they explained it pretty nicely. He is a being soo big that the entire DCU is but a germ to him. All the universes, dimensions, beings, space, time, matter,...etc is but a germ to him. This includes Lucy, Michael, and the presence. There is more to it but that's basicially all you need to know. He only sent a probe(Mandrakk) and it was enough to nearly destroyed everything. Ironically, the armor he created was the only thing that can stop him.

I think the story had that motif like war of the worlds did. That we have natural defense against outside forces. There were others but that's another story

Originally posted by xJLxKing
L Actually, they explained it pretty nicely. He is a being soo big that the entire DCU is but a germ to him. All the universes, dimensions, beings, space, time, matter,...etc is but a germ to him. This includes Lucy, Michael, and the presence. There is more to it but that's basicially all you need to know. He only sent a probe(Mandrakk) and it was enough to nearly destroyed everything. Ironically, the armor he created was the only thing that can stop him.

I think the story had that motif like war of the worlds did. That we have natural defense against outside forces. There were others but that's another story

Everything you say it true regarding the Prime Monitors relationship with the DCU.

But, the Presence, Lucifer, and Archangel Michael also created all of those universees, dimensions, and what not.. The "germs" within the Prime Monitor are they're creations. What we don't know is whether the Presence is simply a part of the Prime Monitors body, or whether the Prime Monitor is a larger part of the Presences creation.. There's really no proof either way. But ask yourself this: Why couldn't the Prime Monitor detect the anomoly of The Presence's actions within it? If the Presence is simply just another tiny blip on it's radar.. And it seemed fairly attuned to detecting the actions of these bacteria, via it's probes.



Plus, in Lucifers own series, we saw "outside" of the mainstream DCU when he made his own multiverse. It wasn't in the bleed, which is basically the Prime Monitors blood stream, it was a formless void. Maybe it was outside of the Prime Monitors main body?

Originally posted by cdtm
Everything you say it true regarding the Prime Monitors relationship with the DCU.

But, the Presence, Lucifer, and Archangel Michael also created all of those universees, dimensions, and what not.. The "germs" within the Prime Monitor are they're creations. What we don't know is whether the Presence is simply a part of the Prime Monitors body, or whether the Prime Monitor is a larger part of the Presences creation.. There's really no proof either way. But ask yourself this: Why couldn't the Prime Monitor detect the anomoly of The Presence's actions within it? If the Presence is simply just another tiny blip on it's radar.. And it seemed fairly attuned to detecting the actions of these bacteria, via it's probes.



Plus, in Lucifers own series, we saw "outside" of the mainstream DCU when he made his own multiverse. It wasn't in the bleed, which is basically the Prime Monitors blood stream, it was a formless void. Maybe it was outside of the Prime Monitors main body?


Because the Prime Monitor is not omniscient..it stands to reason that PM is not a Supreme Being.

.

the primal monitor is nothing more than an empty comicbook page and the presence is the writer that creats the images(multiverse)
the comic book page(primal monitor) noticed he was being drawed on(creation) so he had a monitor(the readers) inspect it

Stop treating pure speculation as if it was based on some event in the comics. We don't know what the Primal Monitor is, so don't pretend like you do. Because as soon as he's mention once more your hypothesis will be swatted like a fly against the wall.

It's some conscious residing outside of the DCU (which it was as a germ) and sent a probe (Mandrakk) to destroy it. That's all we know.

Originally posted by Astner
Stop treating pure speculation as if it was based on some event in the comics. We don't know what the Primal Monitor is, so don't pretend like you do. Because as soon as he's mention once more your hypothesis will be swatted like a fly against the wall.

It's some conscious residing outside of the DCU (which it was as a germ) and sent a probe (Mandrakk) to destroy it. That's all we know. what i said isnt speculation its exactly what a writer said in a interview

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
what i said isnt speculation its exactly what a writer said in a interview
Post it

Besides, that's just what the characters represent, but not what they are. That's if what you said is true

Its been stated by Morrison that the PM is to an effect an infinite living void, the endless canvas onto which all possible artistic and creative ideas of the DCU are projected. My personal view is that the Presence would thus be just the largest germ scrawling out His designs onto the canvas of the Primal Monitor.

That doesn't diminish the Presence though, he's still the Supreme Being of the DCU, the Primal Monitor though is a Meta-Textual entity. At least that's my view.

Originally posted by Omega Vision


That doesn't diminish the Presence though, he's still the Supreme Being of the DCU, the Primal Monitor though is a Meta-Textual entity. ?

but mxy destroyed the primal monitor when he destroyed the omniverse with bat-mite.

Originally posted by Mindset
?
Think of the DCU as a Tidal Pool and the Presence as the biggest fish therein. The Primal Monitor meanwhile is the ocean that feeds said tidal pool. Doesn't mean that the Presence isn't Omnipotent...within the confines of the tidal pool at least.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Think of the DCU as a Tidal Pool and the Presence as the biggest fish therein. The Primal Monitor meanwhile is the ocean that feeds said tidal pool. Doesn't mean that the Presence isn't Omnipotent...within the confines of the tidal pool at least. I think you meant to say is.

The answer is no.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I don't think he'd even need prep per se. He can think on his feet better than Thanos can and could probably throw a wrench in whatever works Thanos has planned.

He would need to out prep Thanos at all. Thanos would have to come up with some crazy crazy crap to even make Lucifer be the least bit concerned. More times than not Lucy would just let Thanos do whatever he chooses and still win more times than not.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
but mxy destroyed the primal monitor when he destroyed the omniverse with bat-mite.
No. The DCU is but a germ to him. This includes Mxy.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lucifer can tank multiversal big bangs from ground zero, without so much as a scratch to show for it. Wtf do you really think MJJ can do to harm him?

Ya know my friend.. and maybe it's just me but that really is more of a symbolic things than a durability feat. I mean we don't equat our "God" to have great durability having survived the big bang do we? It's how we believe the universe came to being and some believe the process started by God and then shaped by God. However, we don't consider God really durable having been around said Big Bang. There is zero evidence that it was anything more than him manipulating said energies to shape the universe. For all we know the Presence could made it such that the explosion had no effect on Michael or Lucifer as they had a job to do. I honestly don't view that as a durability feat. That being said... Lucifer takes this by being on a higher level than MJJ.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
First-Time was in beginning of time, right? Second time is when he created a separate universe using Michael again. That is only one time creating a multiverse not two times. The second time was merely a universe.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That is only one time creating a multiverse not two times. The second time was merely a universe.
Read what I said

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Read what I said

Will do.

Question.. did you read what I posted above in relation to Lucifer and the big bang and durability. Do you believe that to be a durability showing?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
He would need to out prep Thanos at all. Thanos would have to come up with some crazy crazy crap to even make Lucifer be the least bit concerned. More times than not Lucy would just let Thanos do whatever he chooses and still win more times than not.
I'm pretty sure the only people I'd give a prep win over Lucy would have to be either John Constantine (and that would be a temporary win for Constantine at best) or Morpheus. Everyone else isn't in Lucifer's league.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
No. The DCU is but a germ to him. This includes Mxy. universe is omniverse are two different things. omniverse means everything inside and outside the multiverse
and outside the multiverse is the monitor

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I'm pretty sure the only people I'd give a prep win over Lucy would have to be either John Constantine (and that would be a temporary win for Constantine at best) or Morpheus. Everyone else isn't in Lucifer's league.

I pretty much agree. I asked JL and now I'm curious what your thoughts are on what I said about In Re: Lucifer durability in relation to the creation story.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Will do.

Question.. did you read what I posted above in relation to Lucifer and the big bang and durability. Do you believe that to be a durability showing?

There's no reason to doubt it.

Various fan theories aside, the only evidence from the story is Michael going boom, and Lucifer standing right next to him.

so then... whether you believe in a Christian God or not... You believe him surviving the big bang is a durability feat as well?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
so then... whether you believe in a Christian God or not... You believe him surviving the big bang is a durability feat as well?

Your theories are interesting, but there's really nothing in the story to support them for "Vs" purposes.

So yes, I consider it a durability feat. Also note that The Presence was mia and both Lucifer and Michael were outside of his creation, and Lucifer noted several times that part of the reason he wanted his own universe/multiverse outside of Presences existing creation is because they don't have to abide by all of his rules... So even if The Presence put a "They won't be affected by big bangs" law, such a law might not apply outside of Presences domain..

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Will do.

Question.. did you read what I posted above in relation to Lucifer and the big bang and durability. Do you believe that to be a durability showing?
Yup



No, a omniverse is bigger then a multiverse. It's all the universes put together. Here is your proof
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniverse

The Primal Monitor is not in the omniverse. He is outside the multiverse, universe, DCU, or any other universe.

When I say DCU, I mean the entire DCU like the multiverse, the characters, the stories, the villians, absolutely everything.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
so then... whether you believe in a Christian God or not... You believe him surviving the big bang is a durability feat as well?
Yes, do you know why? Because the Anti-monitor was heat by a big-bang and he nearly died. So, yeah it's a durability feat

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Yes, do you know why? Because the Anti-monitor was heat by a big-bang and he nearly died. So, yeah it's a durability feat

huh? What on earth does the AM have to do with my point? Im talking about two figures who instructed by the presence to create the multiverse. That was their job which is totally different than it effecting the AM

Originally posted by cdtm
Your theories are interesting, but there's really nothing in the story to support them for "Vs" purposes.

So yes, I consider it a durability feat. Also note that The Presence was mia and both Lucifer and Michael were outside of his creation, and Lucifer noted several times that part of the reason he wanted his own universe/multiverse outside of Presences existing creation is because they don't have to abide by all of his rules... So even if The Presence put a "They won't be affected by big bangs" law, such a law might not apply outside of Presences domain..

How so? We don't go from a divine creation/plan standpoint... Ooo the Big guy in the guy has some damn good durability to survive the big bang do we? No. We're dealing with being totally outside of the realm of conventional explosions or things in general. Lucifer and Michael job was to create the multiverse for the Presence.. Yet you expect him to put his two prized "angels" in danger of dying from said explosion? That makes no logical sense. To go further.. usually comics make the danger of such an explosion crystal clear... like uh oooooo will ___ survive the explosion that is about to happen... even some worry about an impeding explosion or destruction of the universe.... even some talk about how it's a miracle he survived or barely survived. In this instance there wasn't an ounce of concern by either M or L about such an impeding explosion or doom. This was their job and what they were suppose to do by the order of "God".

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I pretty much agree. I asked JL and now I'm curious what your thoughts are on what I said about In Re: Lucifer durability in relation to the creation story.
I don't think durability is an issue. Its like asking for Lucifer's strength level or his energy projection as if those things are quantifiable by mortal ken.

Its hard to say where exactly Lucifer stacks up. We know he's roughly equal to Michael or just a smidgen weaker and that he's much stronger than the Spectre but weaker than the Great Evil Beast and weaker than the Presence.

In Marvel terms his true power level is all over the place. I put him in the same rough area as the Living Tribunal.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
huh? What on earth does the AM have to do with my point? Im talking about two figures who instructed by the presence to create the multiverse. That was their job which is totally different than it effecting the AM
Actually, it's as identical. Both characters where in front of the big bang when they got it. However, AM was severely hurt while Lucy took it without a scratch

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Actually, it's as identical. Both characters where in front of the big bang when they got it. However, AM was severely hurt while Lucy took it without a scratch

Still with this.... AM wasn't ordered by the presence to created the Multiverse as Lucifer and Michael were... I'm unclear how you can't see a difference there.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Still with this.... AM wasn't ordered by the presence to created the Multiverse as Lucifer and Michael were... I'm unclear how you can't see a difference there.
Lucifer would have survived the Big Bang whether or not the Presence protected him.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Still with this.... AM wasn't ordered by the presence to created the Multiverse as Lucifer and Michael were... I'm unclear how you can't see a difference there.
And you assume that the Presence gave them the power of durability for a short time. There is nothing to indicate that.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I don't think durability is an issue. Its like asking for Lucifer's strength level or his energy projection as if those things are quantifiable by mortal ken.

Its hard to say where exactly Lucifer stacks up. We know he's roughly equal to Michael or just a smidgen weaker and that he's much stronger than the Spectre but weaker than the Great Evil Beast and weaker than the Presence.

In Marvel terms his true power level is all over the place. I put him in the same rough area as the Living Tribunal.

Same here. Michael's position seemed similar to Tribunals, basically acting as Gods unquestioning strong arm man.

Although considering Vertigo's been distanced from mainstream DCU over the years, barring one or two isolated mentions of Dream, odds are the Presence, Lucy, and Michael aren't really a part of the mainstream DCU...

I think Ostranders Spectre was the only strong connection, and future writers wrote around or contradicted his works..

Originally posted by xJLxKing
And you assume that the Presence gave them the power of durability for a short time. There is nothing to indicate that.

More so, without something to back it up in the comics, it's still fan theory.

Originally posted by cdtm
More so, without something to back it up in the comics, it's still fan theory.
It's like claiming that LT was given the power to stop the IG only one time from TOAA. It's absurd to go that low

Wait...PM isn't even omniscient? Then that means the Presence isn't really all that powerful. Maybe LT level.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
It's like claiming that LT was given the power to stop the IG only one time from TOAA. It's absurd to go that low

Not even close to the same... there is on panel evidence saying as much.. The LT even remarks that he comes with a power beyond his ro something to that effect. You guys thinking Lucifer being at ground zero for a big bang he was suppose to be there for to help create for the presence is a durabiliity feat is kinda funny. I guess Christians "God" has quite some durability eh? lol

Originally posted by galactusischere
Wait...PM isn't even omniscient? Then that means the Presence isn't really all that powerful. Maybe LT level.
Actually, he is. It is stated.



I am not Christian, so I am not going to say anything bad to disrespect the disbelieve, but isn't the Christian God suppose to be all powerful as in, omnipotent.


Also, like I said, the Presence wouldn't give him two first children the power to create a universe and the power to withstand a close range Big Bang twice only to take it away after they accomplish it. There is nothing to suggest this, you just want to pick-off a feat. It's mad to think so

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Actually, he is. It is stated.


Then why did he not know about the "germ" in the first place? And why did he send a probe to inspect/destroy it?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Not even close to the same... there is on panel evidence saying as much.. The LT even remarks that he comes with a power beyond his ro something to that effect. You guys thinking Lucifer being at ground zero for a big bang he was suppose to be there for to help create for the presence is a durabiliity feat is kinda funny. I guess Christians "God" has quite some durability eh? lol

Except you know, the second time he did it, it was not part of The Presence's plan. And he was still fine.

Originally posted by galactusischere
Then why did he not know about the "germ" in the first place? And why did he send a probe to inspect/destroy it?
No offence, but that's a stupid question.

I mean if it was stated that the PM has infinite knowledge, then why question it. Heck, his one small probe nearly destroyed DCU as a whole, imagine PM himself.

Also, that question is like asking why did God create evil if good is meant to win at the end. So like the book says, the lord works in mysterious ways.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
No offence, but that's a stupid question.

I mean if it was stated that the PM has infinite knowledge, then why question it. Heck, his one small probe nearly destroyed DCU as a whole, imagine PM himself.

Also, that question is like asking why did God create evil if good is meant to win at the end. So like the book says, the lord works in mysterious ways.

To keep the balance?

Originally posted by galactusischere
To keep the balance?
Who knows. I'd like to think that he God, Allah, or whichever God there is wants us to choose to be good or bad. Who knows...