Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

*This is a pure saber to saber duel. Maul is not allowed to use the force offensively against Grievous at all.

*Maul gets his double bladed lightsaber, and Grievous has access to four lightsabers.

*This will be Grievous when he was healthy (before Mace crushed his chest.)

*Battle takes place in a completely flat desert setting.


Who is the better duelist?

Grievous takes

I wouldn't say Grievous is better, per se, but with 4 blades against 1, he takes this fight.

Originally posted by truejedi
I wouldn't say Grievous is better, per se, but with 4 blades against 1, he takes this fight. Grievous wouldn't necessarily be starting with all 4 sabers... He could just start with 1 or 2 of them for instance (whatever the standard is for him.) I just wanted to give him the option of making use of all of his appendages if need be... hence him having 4 sabers at his disposal.

greivous slaughters.

2. 4. doesnt matter how many sabers he uses.

I doubt GG would even need to use four lightsabers to win. Tbh, I'm hard-pressed to see Maul winning even if he could use the force offensively. /shrug

I think Maul wins with the Force.

But without it, Grievous wins with 2 sabers. Maul puts up a rediculously good fight though. I say it lasts similarily in length to the Kenobi vs Skywalker duel on Mustafar.

Yeah Maul would gain a big edge with the Force, but without he's overwhelmed.

Wait... what do you mean no Force? You mean no Force pushes? Can he use the force to aid his saber fighting?

If he can then he destroys greivous. I mean please in the new animation youve had Fisto completely outclassing him with one saber(to start with). He used 2 when he took one off GG. And didnt Kolar also defeat him.

Maul is the guy who was more than a match for TPM Qui-Gon and Obiwan together! GG goes down hard!

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah Maul would gain a big edge with the Force, but without he's overwhelmed. Do you believe that if Maul were able to use the force he would beat Grievous? It didn't help Ventress, it didn't help Mundi, it didn't help the hundreds of other Jedi he slew. I understand what Mace did to him, but Maul is NO Mace.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Wait... what do you mean no Force? You mean no Force pushes? Can he use the force to aid his saber fighting? I mean he can't use the force in a direct manner against GG (force crush, force push, etc.)

I do think Maul is a better duelist than Ventress or Mundi, though.

Originally posted by john allerdyce
Do you believe that if Maul were able to use the force he would beat Grievous? It didn't help Ventress, it didn't help Mundi, it didn't help the hundreds of other Jedi he slew. I understand what Mace did to him, but Maul is NO Mace. That's racist.

Maul won't be Force Crunching Grievous' organs anytime soon, but if he's allowed to Force Push and Grip things, Grievous has no defence to that, only resistance. And Maul's no slouch. "Deadliest Sith apprentice in history" isn't some title thrown away every year at the annual Sith Convention. I think Grievous would still win more times than not, but he'll have his work cut out for him.

Originally posted by john allerdyce
Do you believe that if Maul were able to use the force he would beat Grievous? It didn't help Ventress, it didn't help Mundi, it didn't help the hundreds of other Jedi he slew. Mundi isn't comparable to Maul. It's arguable that TPM Qui Gon>Mundi as of that point in the Clone Wars. Maul trashed Jinn without breaking a sweat.

Maul is also consideraly better than Ventress as of this moment.

I also seriously doubt Grievous slayed "hundreds of Jedi". I doubt he slayed more than 40 Jedi.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maul is the guy who was more than a match for TPM Qui-Gon and Obiwan together! Grievous would annihilate both Jinn and Kenobi.

Maul has shown the ability to become invisible for a short amount of time via the Force. Also, there's no reason to assume he can't move at rediculous speeds with it. He's already fast as hell without it.

It really depends because of the few different sources. The original cartoon indicated that Tyranus could easily defeat Grievous. In Labrynth of Evil, I believe, Tyranus reflects something along the lines that Grievous could push him to the limit. Obviously, the cartoon differed from this.

It should also be noted that in the same book, Tryanus states that he pities Grievous should he have to fight one of the council members. Obviously, Mundi is no match for him. But such Jedi at the level of Yoda and Mace would obviously trash Grievous. He warns Grievous of Kenobi.

Darth Maul>>>AOTC Kenobi

ROTS Kenobi>/=Darth Maul

You can't compare any of the Jedi Grievous has slain to Maul.

Wank, much?

I absolutely had to pause to type that segment. I have resumed my nights session, be rest assured.

Originally posted by Galan007
Wank, much?

Originally posted by Darth Martin
I also seriously doubt Grievous slayed "hundreds of Jedi". I doubt he slayed more than 40 Jedi. 40 my arse! The Jedi Council confirmed that GG killed hundreds of their brethren.

Originally posted by john allerdyce
40 my arse! The Jedi Council confirmed that GG killed hundreds of their brethren.

Thats because hes a brillaint startegist and in charge of the droid army.
Nowhere are we told that hes killed that many in saber fights.

Look Ki-Adi-Mundi was exhausted when he fought GG. Otherwise its seems perfectly clear to me from the new animation that any accomplished Master from the council should be able to take GG.

Fisto tooled him. Are you saying now that Maul is no match for Fisto??!!
Maul whose a perfect form 7 practioner(the deadliest form).
Maul whose physical and force assisted abilities were pushed to the limit from day 1 by Sidious.

The new animation is T-Canon. Which is above any C-Canon novels in canonicity. T-canon is only beaten by the G-canon movies in authenticity. I beleive even the original clone wars mini was G-canon, so not as high up as the new animation in canonicity.

no.

Grievous does not have the force, Darth Maul can obviously handle more than 1 saber, my vote is for Maul

hmm.

maul can handle two lightsabers. therefore, he can handle four.

impeccable.

Darth Maul probably has edge?

He is aggressive but patient.


Source: Star Wars Databank

While the General Grievous' unorthodox fighting style and quantity of weapons will make this fight difficult, he lacks the finesse of Maul in close quarter combat. Also, Grievous often used alternate means to defeat tough opponents (e.g. Nahdar Vebb, and Eeth Koth).

Maul, on the other hand, proved to be too much for even highly skilled Jedi Masters (e.g. Anoon Bondara, and Qui-Gon Jinn).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Thats because hes a brillaint startegist and in charge of the droid army.
Nowhere are we told that hes killed that many in saber fights. In the General Grievous series, a padawan says that GG had "murdered hundredS of Jedi" (and that was just after the battle of Geonosis) -- though you're right, that number could also be including the Jedi killed by his troops.

However, in the same series Mace says: "he bested so many great Jedi on Hypori and elsewhere, taking their lightsabers as prizes." So Mace himself credited GG with killing a large number of Jedi, all by his lonesome (and again, that was not long after the war began.)

Finally, here's and excerpt from Unknown Soldier: The Story of General Grievous: "In his wake, Grievous left a trail of dissected Jedi, as many as 100 of whom he personally killed."


So yeah, I'll go ahead and say that GG slew no less than 100 Jedi during his reign. Not too shabby for a non-force-sensitive.

---

But more on point: a.) Maul has done nothing suggestive of him being able to overcome Grievous (especially in a pure saber battle, without the force to aid him offensively.) b.) Maul's battle with Silus showed us that it is rather easy to get his will/confidence to falter if you know what buttons to push. And when that happens, he becomes, for lack of better words, a huge pussy -- and GG excels in breaking his opponent's spirit (though I highly doubt that he would need to travel that route to win.) Just another option, is all.

Grevious ftw

Maul easy

I do get the impression most of the Jedi Grievous killed were rank-and-file knights and Padawan caught on their own, though.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
no.

Nice. But Over ruled.

Your forgetting despite his clumsiness that got him killed, in the actual Saber fight he was more than a match for TPM Qui-Gon and TPM ObiWan together. Read TPM novel if you dnt believe me.

Whilst GG is NO MATCH whatsoever for CW Kit Fisto, or CW Agen Kolar or CW Obi-Wan individually. And thats T-Canon confirmed for you.

And Fisto and Kolar go down to Sidious in what 2 seconds. Whilst Maul has shown he can actually contend with Sidious in Sabers for more than a few seconds at least!

Oh and TPM Qui-Gon was good enough to be on the council, and used to spar with Mace and draw. So no, GG dnt have a chance.

Originally posted by Q99
I do get the impression most of the Jedi Grievous killed were rank-and-file knights and Padawan caught on their own, though.

Yes exactly. Theres no Great Jedi Warrior he killed. He came closest with Ki-Adi-Mundi, but that wasnt a fair fight as Mundi was exhausted before he took on GG.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and TPM Qui-Gon was good enough to be on the council, and used to spar with Mace and draw. So no, GG dnt have a chance. Despite what the Essential Guide says, if Qui-Gon and Mace were truly equals in saber to saber combat, then that would make Maul > Mace, by proxy (which is utter nonsense.)

Aside from that, I have a really hard time believing that an alleged 'Mace level duelist' (Maul) could be WTF owned by a Padawan momentarily tapping the dark side (Obi.)

Originally posted by john allerdyce
Despite what the Essential Guide says, if Qui-Gon and Mace were truly equals in saber to saber combat, then that would make Maul > Mace, by proxy (which is utter nonsense.)

Aside from that, I have a really hard time believing that an alleged 'Mace level duelist' (Maul) could be WTF owned by a Padawan momentarily tapping the dark side (Obi.)

Maybe Mace was less good at the time. Qui-Gon's death was after all about thirteen years before Mace fought Palpatine, and when they sparred together was likely even earlier.

In 13 years, I could see Mace going from 'on the level of a council person like Mundi, maybe a bit more' to, well, what we see.

Originally posted by Q99
Maybe Mace was less good at the time. Qui-Gon's death was after all about thirteen years before Mace fought Palpatine, and when they sparred together was likely even earlier.

In 13 years, I could see Mace going from 'on the level of a council person like Mundi, maybe a bit more' to, well, what we see. Precisely. And as long as that distinction is clearly made, then I have no problem comparing Maul/Qui-Gon/Mace. But the other guy didn't make that distinction.

Oh and I thought this was interesting... "The final battle with Darth Maul in the Theed power generator was fast, furious, and fatal. Qui-Gon, a master duelist by anyone's standards, no longer had the stamina of his youth. The Sith lord stabbed him through his chest." - From the New Essential Guide to Characters.


Maul capitalized on his geriatricness.

Originally posted by john allerdyce
40 my arse! The Jedi Council confirmed that GG killed hundreds of their brethren. Source? I'm sure they meant hundreds of Jedi were killed by an army with Grievous at the helm of things. Not necissarilly "Grievous slayed hundreds of Jedi in combat by himself".

....

read

Originally posted by john allerdyce

The Sith Lord was supple and quick, and he worked his way between the Jedi with confidence and ease, whipping his two-ended lightsaber back and forth between them, more than holding his own against their efforts to bring him down. He was skilled, Anakin saw-more skilled, perhaps, than the men he faced. And he was confident in a way that was disturbing. He would not be overcome easily.

This was Maul. The same Maul that killed Anoon. The same Maul that killed Mace's equal.



l2superconductingloop



Six.

In addition to this, Grievous had repulsorlifts built into his legs, allowing his feet to double as hands. This would allow him to wield six lightsabers all at once.

Originally posted by Shoes
This was Maul. The same Maul that killed Anoon. The same Maul that killed Mace's equal..

what did anoon do again?

Blademaster.

no.

i said, what has he done.

Nothign

huh

yep

this is an unanticipated turn of events. mmm

i had assumed that the major amounts of asskissing people bestow upon anoon was for a reason, like, because he actually did something cool, not because theres a single out of universe statement saying he is.

i guess not though. he really is nothing more than a walking plot divice who's only reason for existing was to die to make maul look good.

You used to worship Maul...

no ive always hated him lol

when i say stuff like he could defeat anyone etc im satiring maul fanboys, who are the worst kind of fanboys

We do know he trained Obi-Wan in sword work, and gave Maul an actual fight before going down, so not quite nothing, but yea, not a lot other than "he was some shade of master level."

Originally posted by john allerdyce
Despite what the Essential Guide says, if Qui-Gon and Mace were truly equals in saber to saber combat, then that would make Maul > Mace, by proxy (which is utter nonsense.)

Dnt just make conclusions like that.
The essential guide says they would usually draw in lightsaber sparring sessions.

In an all out fight Mace may still have destroyed Qui-Gon either with the Force, or just fighting until Qui-gon got tired as Mace would have had a better stamina, and we dnt know how long their "sparring" sessions were. And as someone else has already pointed out this was TPM Mace 13 years pre ROTS and probably hadnt fully developed Vapaad yet.

But my point which you seem to have missed was that Qui-Gon was a formidable Jedi. And we have clearly seen GG can not hold his own against any of the formidable Jedis like Kit Fisto and Agen Kolar.

Originally posted by john allerdyce
Aside from that, I have a really hard time believing that an alleged 'Mace level duelist' (Maul) could be WTF owned by a Padawan momentarily tapping the dark side (Obi.)

First of all the padawan was ready for the trials and was knighted in the same movie, so stop referring to him as padawan trying to imply hes like Ashoka or sumthing.

Second Obi-wan never defeated Maul in the saber fight, even with his temporary dark side boost, he still got beaten by Maul in the Saber fight.

Third you do realise when Maul fully gave into his anger he came close to besting Sidious. Now before you go crazy Sidious was just on the defence and testing him, but still thats certainly something the likes of Fisto and Agen Kolar(both above Greivous) are not capable of doing, and its far far above the level of TPM Obiwan.

Seriously if Maul faced 2 PM Obiwans instead of Qui-gon and Obi-wan, Maul would have killed them both. He wasnt even in Maul's league.

When Maul first engaged Anoon, within 2 seconds he knew he was the superior duelist. Anoon also knew it (states this in ShadowHunter) and Anoon was one of the finest swordsman in the Jedi Order. Maul wanted to fight Mace and Yoda who arguably were the best swordsman in the galaxy. If Maul out fought Jinn twice (if you count the brawl on Tatooine), then Maul was possibly the finest swordsman the Sith produced.

If he fought GG, not only would he use Juyo, but teras kasi and a double blade can be split in two seperate lightsabers, thus it would be a 4-2 lightsaber contest. Obi-Wan used Soresu and the Force to defeat GG. Grievous probably never faced a master of Juyo whose speed and unpredictabilty would confuse him. He (GG) was probably trained in Makashi. The 'Deadliest Sith Apprentice in history" would most likely win because he has the other options - teras kasi and Force.

This is the only thing I have problems with.


Else, great post (despite the overemphasis on specific form).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Third you do realise when Maul fully gave into his anger he came close to besting Sidious.


This conflicts with your response to this:



If Maul did come close to beating him (which I highly doubt), it's a feat that even Windu could barely manage, even with Vaapad and the superconducting loop, meaning Maul > Qui-Gon, Maul = Mace, Maul = Sidious.



Read TPM.

Now wait a second, you're logic=faulty. Just because Maul is better than Qui Gon and Mace is better than Qui Gon, that doesn't mean that Maul is equal to Mace. Maul could be just be a little bit better than Qui Gon, and Mace could be on a whole different plane, or vice versa. Show your work man...show your work

...

1) Not my logic.

2)

As of TPM. RotS is 13 years and a war later.

Just because Maul is better than Qui Gon and Mace is better than Qui Gon, that doesn't mean that Maul is equal to Mace.

This isn't Maul vs Mace though.
This is Maul vs GG.

edit Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Just because Maul is better than Qui Gon and Mace is better than Qui Gon, that doesn't mean that Maul is equal to Mace.



As of TPM it does.

No
Math says you're wrong.

Still haven't seen/heard anything that leads me to believe Maul could handle GG. /shrug


Aside from that, nowhere in Qui-Gon's The New Essential Guide to Characters bio does it say that he and Mace used to draw whilst sparring. So unless that information appears in another character's bio, then Wookiepedia is mistaken...

Originally posted by Galan007
Still haven't seen/heard anything that leads me to believe Maul could handle GG. /shrug


Aside from that, nowhere in Qui-Gon's The New Essential Guide to Characters bio does it say that he and Mace used to draw whilst sparring. So unless that information appears in another character's bio, then Wookiepedia is mistaken... I think it's either from Shadowhunter or TPM Novel. Can't remember which.

^


Stupid Wookiepedia giving the wrong sources... glare

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
No
Math says you're wrong.

Maul > Qui-Gon

Qui-Gon = Mace

Maul >= Mace

where

Originally posted by Galan007
Still haven't seen/heard anything that leads me to believe Maul could handle GG. /shrug


Aside from that, nowhere in Qui-Gon's The New Essential Guide to Characters bio does it say that he and Mace used to draw whilst sparring. So unless that information appears in another character's bio, then Wookiepedia is mistaken...

Still haven't seen/heard anything that leads me to believe GG could handle Maul. /shrug

yeah, the quote about Qui-Gonn and Mace needs to be posted. Wiki is not admissable.

Originally posted by Amazing Vrayo!!
Just because Maul is better than Qui Gon and Mace is better than Qui Gon, that doesn't mean that Maul is equal to Mace. Maul could be just be a little bit better than Qui Gon, and Mace could be on a whole different plane, or vice versa.

ROTS Windu is far better than Maul. TPM Maul is far better than Qui Gon.

He's better, but he's not FAR better. If that was so, Qui-Gon would have been dead around the same time Obi-Wan took a 4-storey plunge over the side, but Maul gets backhanded for it. He's not FAR better.

Originally posted by Shoes
This conflicts with your response to this:


If Maul did come close to beating him (which I highly doubt), it's feat that even Windu could barely manage, even with Vaapad and the superconducting loop, meaning Maul > Qui-Gon, Maul = Mace, Maul = Sidious.


No, because no where did I say Maul was Sidious's equal. I was just pointing out hes one of the few who could even spar Sidious.

And I pointed it out because people keep go on about a temporarily angered padawan Obi1 almost besting Maul. Well my point was that a temporarily Enraged Maul is in another league.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He's better, but he's not FAR better. If that was so, Qui-Gon would have been dead around the same time Obi-Wan took a 4-storey plunge over the side, but Maul gets backhanded for it. He's not FAR better.

This.

Also: Mace==Qui Gon < Maul is an ABC if I ever saw one.

Still waiting on that quote that says Mace==QGJ around the time of TPM.

I believe the quote everyone is referring to was speaking about their past, before Mace was on the council.

I know it isn't true, in any event, for any incarnation of Mace beyond TPM, and since it was later incarnations of Mace that fought Grievous, nothing here helps Maul.

Originally posted by truejedi
This.

Also: Mace==Qui Gon < Maul is an ABC if I ever saw one.

Still waiting on that quote that says Mace==QGJ around the time of TPM.

I believe the quote everyone is referring to was speaking about their past, before Mace was on the council.

I know it isn't true, in any event, for any incarnation of Mace beyond TPM, and since it was later incarnations of Mace that fought Grievous, nothing here helps Maul. The quote was of circa TPM.

Though for the life of me I cannot remember where the quote is even though I remember reading it before.

Maybe you read it here.

Iv read it on wookipedia. But no idea where the original source is from.

Still since GG got tooled by Fisto I think the argument should be prooving GG can stand up to a Sith Lord (One of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history) and not vice versa.

Unless your all claiming here that Fisto > Maul. If so id love to see the reasoning behind that assumption.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He's better, but he's not FAR better. If that was so, Qui-Gon would have been dead around the same time Obi-Wan took a 4-storey plunge over the side, but Maul gets backhanded for it. He's not FAR better.

Re-read TPM. Maul wasn't even breaking a sweat.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Maybe you read it here. No iremember reading it in one of my books but can't remember which

In TPM, Maul was the far superior duelist and fighter - especially when it came to Obi-Wan vs Maul. Jinn stated that that Maul had a "Jedi's focus" when it came to fighting or something of the sort. Obi-Wan got knocked on his ass three times and Force pushed over the edge. That is a serious testament to Maul's abilities in combat. Not only did he kill 2 Masters (Anoon and Jinn), if he didn't get arrogant, Obi-Wan could have been a victim too.

Originally posted by Shoes
Re-read TPM. Maul wasn't even breaking a sweat.

And it was made clear he was more than a match for both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan combined.
Not to mention on Tatooine Qui-Gon JUST managed to survive by the skin of his teeth.
So Yeah, Maul was far better a warrior than Qui Gon.

Look we are talking about a guy whose perfected his Form Juyo(the deadliest Form) which also means hes a High Level Master of multiple other forms, whose mastered not only a regular lightsaber but also the unorthodox but deadly Double bladed weapon, who was put through the most vigourous training by Sidious, whose physical and force assisted abilites were pushed to their limit and who combined martial arts into his fighting style.

I mean seriously GG wuldnt stand a chance against Maul!

Especially now that we have it T-Canon confirmed that Fisto and Kolar are both far superior in lightsaber combat to Greivous. And I haven't seen anything from either of those 2 to make me believe they would be a match for Maul.

I have to disagree with you on one point Power. GG does stand a fighting chance due to his exosketal armor. One small mistake (like when Maul had his weapon sawed in half), then GG has a chance of killing Maul. But I don't think Maul would make that mistake.

Does that however mean that Maul is superior to Fisto and Kolar? If so, who on the Council can defeat him? The only one possible in my opinion is Mace due to his strength in the Force. Mace would have to heavily rely on the Force because Maul would hold nothing back. In short, Maul was a weapons master - a perfect killing machine.

Good points Truculent. Yeah your right saying GG has no chance was a bit on top.

On the Council by ROTS theres at least 3 who would defeat Maul in Saber combat. Yoda, Mace and Anakin.
And theres the possibility of Obiwan being a 4th. Simply because his Soresu defences would hold.

However as off TPM time, I only see Yoda as the one who would defeat Maul in a Saber fight without any doubt. But I think Mace vs. Maul at this point in time could actually be a pretty good fight. With shatterpoint perhaps giving Mace the edge. Although its hard to tell because we dnt really know how far Mace was into his development of Vapaad at this point in time. A Superconducting Loop would completely change things.

But apart from those big 2 I dnt see anyone else off the Jedi council defeating Maul at the time of TPM.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He's better, but he's not FAR better. If that was so, Qui-Gon would have been dead around the same time Obi-Wan took a 4-storey plunge over the side, but Maul gets backhanded for it. He's not FAR better.

After minutes of rest and meditation from Qui Gon, Maul killed him in no more than 30 seconds. I'd say him being "far better" is completely justified.

Did Maul lack force capabilities, or did he just not focus much on training with the force?

Originally posted by Darth Martin
After minutes of rest and meditation from Qui Gon, Maul killed him in no more than 30 seconds. I'd say him being "far better" is completely justified. No, he's not. He's superior, unquestionably so. The narrative and the results make that clear.

Maul handed Qui-Gon his ass for three reasons: 1.) Youth/stamina. No matter how skilled one may be, if you can't catch your breath or rest your muscles, you're f*cked. Unless Qui-Gon took a senzu bean while he was meditating, I very much doubt he recovered from the duel's first phase.

2.) The reactor room. Qui-Gon's Ataru played against him in that little chamber. Maul's acrobatics and Juyo were situated perfectly here. There's a reason Maul chose that place as the arena.

3.) Preparation. Maul had selected that area, with it's tall, narrow walkways, and little circular rooms to use against the Jedi. I could be the greatest gunslinger in the West, but if my opponent has the gift of preparation, there's a good chance I'm gonna firing at his hidden iron breastplate.


Maul's youth/stamina is all him, no variables there. But prep. time and clever choice of arena/fighting style is gonna give him the edge over Qui-Gon any day. In a 1-on-1, no variables or established advantages, Maul>Qui-Gon. Hell, Maul>>Qui-Gon. But NOT Maul>>>>>>Qui-Gon.

1.So Yoda, Sidious, Tyranus...... Age isn't the best excuse for a Force practitioner. Especially one as reknowned as Jinn.
2.Heard this before. I don't buy it either. He does Ataru, granted, but he doesn't hop around like fellow users Yoda and Sidious. He had enough space to fight. Maul had a double bladed lightsaber and he was just fine.
3.Qui Gon Jinn had minutes of battle meditation and resting to catch his breather. He even initiated the fight by charging at Maul. He got owned.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
But NOT Maul>>>>>>Qui-Gon. If that's what you see as "far better" then I'd disagree too.

I'm reading a lot of assumptions and no quotes. I've seen at least one fallacy. TPM novelization does not portray Maul as "far superior"

Read: p. 300:
"(QGJ) was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. QGJ might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty. ...
...Stroke for stroke, QG and Darth Maul battled about the rim of the melting pit, locked in a combat that seemed endless and forever and could be won by neither."

Okay.......

My DVD shows different.

oh, and still waiting on the Mace quote.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
After minutes of rest and meditation from Qui Gon, Maul killed him in no more than 30 seconds. I'd say him being "far better" is completely justified.


But that minute of rest was after a lot more minutes of fighting, I doubt he was near fully recovered.

Maul had a much deeper tank.

True. And I stress "minutes". Twas not 60 seconds. I believe it was from 3-5 minutes with Maul pacing back and forth staring at his opponent, Kenobi staring with fear, and Jinn calm and meditating.

Originally posted by truejedi
I'm reading a lot of assumptions and no quotes. I've seen at least one fallacy. TPM novelization does not portray Maul as "far superior"

Read: p. 300:
"(QGJ) was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. QGJ might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty. ...
...Stroke for stroke, QG and Darth Maul battled about the rim of the melting pit, locked in a combat that seemed endless and forever and could be won by neither." Seems pretty close to me.

also: Pg. 299: "Beyond, the Sith Lord worked at binding up his wounds, a series of burns and slashes marked by charred tears in his dark clothing."

How did he get wounded, if FAR superior.

as good as Mace quote,anyone? I'm going to need to see that one.

Well, I got this:

The Sith Lord was supple and quick, and he worked his way between the Jedi with confidence and ease, whipping his two-ended lightsaber back and forth between them, more than holding his own against their efforts to bring him down. He was skilled, Anakin saw-more skilled, perhaps, than the men he faced. And he was confident in a way that was disturbing. He would not be overcome easily.

Didn't see any of this on the film.

EU section.


EU

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Didn't see any of this on the film.

all of your sources for why maul is anything more than a second rate henchman comes from outside the films.

Originally posted by Shoes
EU section.Film>Novel

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
all of your sources for why maul is anything more than a second rate henchman comes from outside the films. This is somewhat true. None of which directly contradict with the film though. Those excerpts do infact.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Film>Novel

This is somewhat true. None of which directly contradict with the film though. Those excerpts do infact. Bullshit, both are canon, and therefore both need to be held at equal validity.

How can both be held at equal importance if they directly contradict themselves?

where is the direct contradiction

gb2/b/

In the case of conflicting canon, yes. This case? No. How can you tell if someone is the superior fighter, just by looking at the screen? Using this unorthodox method, I suppose you can tell which form they used, how much energy they put into the duel, how close the duel was... etc.

But dude, seriously, gb2/b/

Do you see Maul's garments ripped, damaged, torn, or in any kind of disfiguration?

Does Maul seemed overwhelmed by Jinn ever in the duel. The only significant move Jinn makes against Maul is when he knocks him off the ramp, of which Maul's attention had been removed due to him kicking Kenobi's ass off first.

Whenever Jinn had to go solo against Maul he was overwhelmed. Fact. Tatooine. Naboo.

Darth Martin: If you can actually find a contradiction, good for you, but since there are giant CUTS in between parts of the fight, everything in the novel applies, since it could easily be placed into the parts of the fight you didn't see.

That was pretty simple.

DARTH

SHIT NO MAN

LOOK AT MY POST

READ TPM

READ RULES

GTFO

Originally posted by truejedi
If you can actually find a contradiction, good for you, but since there are giant CUTS in between parts of the fight, everything in the novel applies, since it could easily be placed into the parts of the fight you didn't see. Usually, I'd gladly use the novel as an expanding source of material as your saying. But it directly contradicts with what is shown in the screenplay. I have to accept the film over it here.

On film, Maul is never shown to be overwhelmed(facial expression).

facial expressions dont mean anything.

MARTIN

GB2/b/

FACIAL EXPRESSIONS =/= FEELINGS

MAUL'S FACIAL EXPRESSION IS ALWAYS A FROWN

Originally posted by Shoes
In the case of conflicting canon, yes. This case? No. How can you tell if someone is the superior fighter, just by looking at the screen? Using this unorthodox method, I suppose you can tell which form they used, how much energy they put into the duel, how close the duel was... etc.

Maul is quite obviously the superior fighter. He kicked both of there asses throughout the entire duel.

except for the parts where he didnt

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Maul is quite obviously the superior fighter. He kicked both of there asses throughout the entire duel.

MARTIN

THE NOVEL AGREES WITH YOUR SHIT

WHAT ARE YOU DOING

The Sith Lord was supple and quick, and he worked his way between the Jedi with confidence and ease, whipping his two-ended lightsaber back and forth between them, more than holding his own against their efforts to bring him down. He was skilled, Anakin saw-more skilled, perhaps, than the men he faced. And he was confident in a way that was disturbing. He would not be overcome easily.

Why are writing in caps? It's disturbing me.

I was merely defending myself verbally against the other posters. They do contradict in some areas. When they do, film is generally considered the superior cannon.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Why are writing in caps? It's disturbing me.

I was merely defending myself verbally against the other posters. They do contradict in some areas. When they do, film is generally considered the superior cannon.

MARTIN

THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION

YOU MUST GO BY THE BOOK

GTFO

Could of swore I read a qoute about Maul's clothes being ripped fromn lightsaber grazings.

In addition to this being irrelevant, red herring.

But enough about Maul.

Let's talk Grievous.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Apparently there is:

i dont see a contradiction anywhere there.

There is no contradiction. The novel is as canon as the movie, unless one directly contradicts the other. These do not. Darth Martin, your interpretation of the lightsaber fight and who was superior is meaningless in the face of a canon source.

If your opinion contradicts with canon, who do you think wins? humor me by guessing.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
On film, Maul is never shown to be overwhelmed(facial expression). Wow... that's... that's just awful.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Wow... that's... that's just awful.

Originally posted by truejedi
I'm reading a lot of assumptions and no quotes. I've seen at least one fallacy. TPM novelization does not portray Maul as "far superior"

Read: p. 300:
"(QGJ) was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. QGJ might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty. ...
...Stroke for stroke, QG and Darth Maul battled about the rim of the melting pit, locked in a combat that seemed endless and forever and could be won by neither."

Wasnt this after Maul took a huge hit and fell flat on his back??
Read earlier in the novel. Maul held both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at Bay.
And Qui-Gon knew it was actually Maul who was in control of the fight. So he was at least a match, possibly superior to both of them combined, which means he was of course FAR superior to Qui-Gon alone.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Wasnt this after Maul took a huge hit and fell flat on his back??
Read earlier in the novel. Maul held both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at Bay.
And Qui-Gon knew it was actually Maul who was in control of the fight. So he was at least a match, possibly superior to both of them combined, which means he was of course FAR superior to Qui-Gon alone. We already know that Maul is better than QGJ. What we're discussing is exactly how much better he is. TPM obiwan wouldn't have helped out that much. He was only a padawan, and a nooby one at that. He really didn't have much skill and the fact that he defeated a killing machine like Maul was really just a fluke. QGJ alone would only be set back a tiny bit w/o support from Obi.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No, he's not. He's superior, unquestionably so. The narrative and the results make that clear.

Maul handed Qui-Gon his ass for three reasons: 1.) Youth/stamina. No matter how skilled one may be, if you can't catch your breath or rest your muscles, you're f*cked. Unless Qui-Gon took a senzu bean while he was meditating, I very much doubt he recovered from the duel's first phase.

2.) The reactor room. Qui-Gon's Ataru played against him in that little chamber. Maul's acrobatics and Juyo were situated perfectly here. There's a reason Maul chose that place as the arena.

3.) Preparation. Maul had selected that area, with it's tall, narrow walkways, and little circular rooms to use against the Jedi. I could be the greatest gunslinger in the West, but if my opponent has the gift of preparation, there's a good chance I'm gonna firing at his hidden iron breastplate.


Maul's youth/stamina is all him, no variables there. But prep. time and clever choice of arena/fighting style is gonna give him the edge over Qui-Gon any day. In a 1-on-1, no variables or established advantages, Maul>Qui-Gon. Hell, Maul>>Qui-Gon. But NOT Maul>>>>>>Qui-Gon.

What the f*ck is a senzu bean, and where can I get one/some?

Originally posted by Amazing Vrayo!!
We already know that Maul is better than QGJ. What we're discussing is exactly how much better he is.

I know. And the fact that he was more than a match for both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan put together shows Maul was MUCH better than Qui-Gon. Also the fact that Qui-Gon alone wasnt lasting very long against Maul on Tatooine.

Originally posted by Amazing Vrayo!!
TPM obiwan wouldn't have helped out that much.

Really?? He looked like he was helping out quite a lot. Qui-Gon was the first to get hit flat on his ass. Without Obiwan there he would have likely died then. The novel mentions Obiwan as having more energy and stamina than Qui-Gon(though not yet his equal).

Originally posted by Amazing Vrayo!!
He was only a padawan,

A fully trained padawan.

Originally posted by Amazing Vrayo!!
and a nooby one at that.

So Yoda Knighted a nooby??

Originally posted by Amazing Vrayo!!
He really didn't have much skill

So you dnt need much skill to be Knighted??

Originally posted by Amazing Vrayo!!
and the fact that he defeated a killing machine like Maul was really just a fluke.

I wuldnt call it Fluke. It was Maul's Overconfidence that lead to his Clumsy downfall. But Maul certainly dominated the Saber fight.

Originally posted by Amazing Vrayo!!
QGJ alone would only be set back a tiny bit w/o support from Obi.

Really?? So on Tatooine Qui-gon wasnt about to get murdered???

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Wasnt this after Maul took a huge hit and fell flat on his back??
Read earlier in the novel. Maul held both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at Bay.
And Qui-Gon knew it was actually Maul who was in control of the fight. So he was at least a match, possibly superior to both of them combined, which means he was of course FAR superior to Qui-Gon alone.



Read: p. 300:
"(QGJ) was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. QGJ might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty. ...
...Stroke for stroke, QG and Darth Maul battled about the rim of the melting pit, locked in a combat that seemed endless and forever and could be won by neither."


Nope, this came after QGJ had a moment to catch his breath and went back to fighting maul before kenobi could arrive. This is during the time you contended QGJ was getting dominated.

The paragraph after the above quote (P. 301) mentions that QGJ simply didn't have the stamina to compete with Maul.

Originally posted by truejedi


Read: p. 300:
"(QGJ) was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. QGJ might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty. ...
...Stroke for stroke, QG and Darth Maul battled about the rim of the melting pit, locked in a combat that seemed endless and forever and could be won by neither."


Nope, this came after QGJ had a moment to catch his breath and went back to fighting maul before kenobi could arrive. This is during the time you contended QGJ was getting dominated.

The paragraph after the above quote (P. 301) mentions that QGJ simply didn't have the stamina to compete with Maul.

This was after Maul fell 2 stories landing flat on his back. A hit that Qui-Gon was only able to get because Maul took a second to dispose of Obiwan.

And this paragraph above shows the environment was limiting Mauls mobility with his double bladed weapon, and NOT limiting Qui-Gon's Ataro.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No, he's not. He's superior, unquestionably so. The narrative and the results make that clear.

Maul handed Qui-Gon his ass for three reasons: 1.) Youth/stamina. No matter how skilled one may be, if you can't catch your breath or rest your muscles, you're f*cked. Unless Qui-Gon took a senzu bean while he was meditating, I very much doubt he recovered from the duel's first phase.

2.) The reactor room. Qui-Gon's Ataru played against him in that little chamber. Maul's acrobatics and Juyo were situated perfectly here. There's a reason Maul chose that place as the arena.

3.) Preparation. Maul had selected that area, with it's tall, narrow walkways, and little circular rooms to use against the Jedi. I could be the greatest gunslinger in the West, but if my opponent has the gift of preparation, there's a good chance I'm gonna firing at his hidden iron breastplate.


Maul's youth/stamina is all him, no variables there. But prep. time and clever choice of arena/fighting style is gonna give him the edge over Qui-Gon any day. In a 1-on-1, no variables or established advantages, Maul>Qui-Gon. Hell, Maul>>Qui-Gon. But NOT Maul>>>>>>Qui-Gon.

As someone has already mentioned, Qui-Gon's bio in TNEGTC even sights poorer stamina (due to old age) as the main reason behind his defeat at the hands of Maul.

Originally posted by truejedi
oh, and still waiting on the Mace quote. I'm starting to doubt whether or not that quote exists at all - and if it does, it certainly isn't in the source Wookie credits...

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
What the f*ck is a senzu bean, and where can I get one/some? <3 DBZ

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This was after Maul fell 2 stories landing flat on his back. A hit that Qui-Gon was only able to get because Maul took a second to dispose of Obiwan.


Definitly not directly after, like you are trying to imply. This is the final confrontation.




I never claimed that. Strawman much?

In any fight - especially a swordfight, you have to control the situation. Maul exactly that. Watch MMA fighters, they 'stalk' their opponents and lure them into their trap. Maul did exactly that - controlled the fight, 'stalked,' lured and finally killed Jinn.

and also, just to add to your point translucent, the sky is blue!

Hell yeah!!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_MI95kJBvIGo/S1RAtMDbrGI/AAAAAAAAAb4/u5QvNQPW9js/s400/bluesky.jpg

I take it I'm the only fan of UFC here . . .

Back to the point, Maul controlled the fight. He allowed Jinn to press Maul because he knew it would wear Jinn out. When the fight was abruptly stopped, Jinn was exhuasted. Maul fed off his rage and bound his minor wounds. After Jinn regained some of his strength, Maul wore him out again and killed him. Superior lightsaber form, youth and cunning defeated Jinn.

DT: no one is disupiting superior, we are disputing how superior.

Originally posted by truejedi


Definitly not directly after, like you are trying to imply. This is the final confrontation.

Well the movie is the highest canon, and we know Qui-Gon didnt last long at all in the final confrontation and he was backing away from Maul most of that Little time he did last.
But even if we go by the novel version of their final confrontation, we dnt know if Maul was fully recovered from Landing Straight on his Back after falling 2 stories, and we know Qui-Gon was doing sum battle meditation in the middle which helped revitalise him, and perhaps helped him to fight better than he did previously.



Originally posted by truejedi
I never claimed that. Strawman much?

I know. It wasnt directed at you, was directed at Lucien who said it, but I quoted you because you showed the paragraph.

more on point, what has maul actually done that puts him over grievous? kill the featless wonder anoon? kill the old and tired qui-gon?

all the word-play aside, that's really all i've seen anyone give him credit for where feats are concerned...

he doesnt have any remarkable feats. his reputation and place among the star wars hierarchy is due entirely to out of universe quotes. his only notable feats are beating people who are also only impressive due to out of universe quotes.

Fighting Qui-Gon and Obi-wan at the same time *was* pretty badass. Sure, he beat the 'old and tired' Qui-Gon, but he was the one who tired him.

im pretty sure qui-gon being old also had something to do with it...

Originally posted by Q99
Fighting Qui-Gon and Obi-wan at the same time *was* pretty badass. Sure, he beat the 'old and tired' Qui-Gon, but he was the one who tired him. i'm not saying it wasn't impressive. i am just not of the opinion that defeating the like's of a stamina-challenged qui-gon and obi-wan as a padawan/almost knight, places maul in some sort of "teh uber" tier.

was he a skilled duelist? yes. insurmountably so? certainly not.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
im pretty sure qui-gon being old also had something to do with it...

Even old that was a long fight it took to do it! He was 60 and strong in the force, not 80 or anything.

He wasn't young but he wasn't an invalid or anything, it took serious dueling with a master over a prolonged period for Maul to wear him down.



Well, obviously, losing and all. But let us remember that we're talking a long duel with a council-level master without dying and didn't really show his wear until quite late in the fight. Many would have trouble surviving that long, it's a strategy that required very high level skill.

Originally posted by Q99
Even old that was a long fight it took to do it! He was 60 and strong in the force, not 80 or anything.

He wasn't young but he wasn't an invalid or anything, it took serious dueling with a master over a prolonged period for Maul to wear him down.

Well, obviously, losing and all. But let us remember that we're talking a long duel with a council-level master without dying and didn't really show his wear until quite late in the fight. Many would have trouble surviving that long, it's a strategy that required very high level skill. i'm not trying to say that qui-gon was some run of the mill, talentless feeb. i am just saying that his inferior stamina was cited as the main reason why maul was able to kill him (as i posted earlier.) had stamina not been an issue.... who knows?

"council level" doesnt mean anything. jango fett killed a council member in direct face to face combat. combat skills are not required to become a council member, which makes sense, because jedi are not not combat minded. the only thing that really matters is wisdom.

Good enough to spar with a less experienced Mace on good terms.

Originally posted by john allerdyce
i'm not trying to say that qui-gon was some run of the mill, talentless feeb. i am just saying that his inferior stamina was cited as the main reason why maul was able to kill him (as i posted earlier.) had stamina not been an issue.... who knows?

Yea, but 'inferior stamina' isn't actually all that little by most standards is what I'm saying. It was a very long fight, it's not like it'd be a weakness at all against most enemies.

Maul won because of his exceptional stamina allowed him to create a weakness that effectively wouldn't be there for most fighters. Dooku was losing against Anakin due to stamina in a fraction of the the time.


Stamina tipped the scales in the end, but "Duel with a master for 8+ minutes" in order to make it a factor at all is impressive as heck.

however, the length of the duel points once again to Maul not being ridiculously above QGJ's level as a swordsman, a level which has never been established as all that high.

Originally posted by Q99
Good enough to spar with a less experienced Mace on good terms.


A mace we know absolutely nothing about except he wasn't as technically skilled as Anoon Bondara.

Originally posted by john allerdyce
more on point, what has maul actually done that puts him over grievous? kill the featless wonder anoon? kill the old and tired qui-gon?

all the word-play aside, that's really all i've seen anyone give him credit for where feats are concerned...

So you dnt think Maul or Quigon are even close to Fisto or Kolar who both tooled Greivous. Seriously what feat does GG have. Who did he defeat whose even close to a Sith Lord as highly trained as Maul??

Oh, and almost besting Sidious in Sabers in a fit of rage is not a feat?? Yes Sidious was testing him, and wasnt going all out himself, but still how many Jedis are even capable of that.

Ive explained all Maul's training and skills to which GG does not even come close.

You guys have yet to explain how GG would even stand a chance.

Originally posted by truejedi


A mace we know absolutely nothing about except he wasn't as technically skilled as Anoon Bondara.


Also that Qui-Gon was one of the only ones who could give him a good sparing match. So in the top few duelists around at least.

Originally posted by Q99
Also that Qui-Gon was one of the only ones who could give him a good sparing match. So in the top few duelists around at least. Yes but this is TPM Mace we don't know how good he was then?

Originally posted by mattatom
Yes but this is TPM Mace we don't know how good he was then?

Still good enough to have trouble finding people who could give him a fight within the order.

Originally posted by Q99
Still good enough to have trouble finding people who could give him a fight within the order. That or people were just unwilling to fight a blackguy expert Jedi.

He was head of the council, so was obviously pretty damn good.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He was head of the council, so was obviously pretty damn good. You weren't put on the council for just combat prowess.

Originally posted by mattatom
You weren't put on the council for just combat prowess.


I know but being head of the council youd obviously be powerful and experienced in the ways of the force.

Originally posted by truejedi
however, the length of the duel points once again to Maul not being ridiculously above QGJ's level as a swordsman, a level which has never been established as all that high.

Qui-Gon lasted a whopping 30 seconds in his last confrontation with Maul.

And only a couple of seconds longer on tatooine. So yeah Maul is miles ahead of him.

Originally posted by Q99
Also that Qui-Gon was one of the only ones who could give him a good sparing match. So in the top few duelists around at least. Where was this stated? If it's going to keep getting brought up as evidence, then I would like to know the source it's coming from..

Originally posted by john allerdyce
i'm not saying it wasn't impressive. i am just not of the opinion that defeating the like's of a stamina-challenged qui-gon

Stamina challenged. Haha! Really his stamina was that bad! Nah he just culdnt keep up with Maul.


Originally posted by john allerdyce
and obi-wan as a padawan/almost knight, places maul in some sort of "teh uber" tier.

He was basically a match for 2 formidable Kinghts together. More than a match in fact.

Originally posted by john allerdyce
was he a skilled duelist? yes. insurmountably so? certainly not.



So having Mastered the Deadliest Lightsaber form, unkown to the vast majority of Jedis, as well as mastering an orthodox lightsaber as well as the deadly unorthodox double bladed weapon, as well as mastering several martial arts to combine with that, IS NOT UBER SKILLED TO YOU????

I think the Qui-Gon vs Mace stuff was from the New Essential Guide to Characters.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Qui-Gon lasted a whopping 30 seconds in his last confrontation with Maul.


A whopping 30 seconds after fighting him in one of the longest sustained combats in all of Star Wars.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Stamina challenged. Haha! Really his stamina was that bad! Nah he just culdnt keep up with Maul.


He was basically a match for 2 formidable Kinghts together. More than a match in fact.

So having Mastered the Deadliest Lightsaber form, unkown to the vast majority of Jedis, as well as mastering an orthodox lightsaber as well as the deadly unorthodox double bladed weapon, as well as mastering several martial arts to combine with that, IS NOT UBER SKILLED TO YOU???? never once did i say his stamina was "bad". but it was the main reason he lost. that's my only point.

he killed off a master (qui) who was battle worn, and who's exact level is entirely undefined. he beat a padawan/knight (obi) who didn't have any noteworthy feats at that point. don't make it more then it is.

i already said maul was a skilled duelist. but not insurmountably so.

Originally posted by Galan007
Where was this stated? If it's going to keep getting brought up as evidence, then I would like to know the source it's coming from..

galen, no one is ever going to answer this.

do you know why? because the current pro-maul argument hinges upon the idea that maul and qui-gon are a match for TPM mace.

if it ever actually turns out that that cant be proven... then their entire point collapses.

so you will never get a source