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Besides Darth Nihilus (who wasn't even a force user. More of a force monster/ abuser since he was a wound in the force) who is the strongest force user?

Also, do you think they would be strong enough in the force to not be "hit" by DNs force drain?
Perhaps with just force absorb or if possible being just strong enough to ward off force drain from their body and nothing else?

Strongest in terms of Raw Power, I'd say Starkiller, especially when we see more of him in Unleashed II.

Strongest in terms of potential, maybe Jaden Solo.

Strongest in potential realized, between Luke when he was Master of the Order, and Palpatine.

Strongest overall, Luke.

Strongest in obscure/miscellaneous ares, Cade, the guy can bring people back from the dead.

BTW, what's the Foce?

what is your definition of raw power, since you gave all the other designations to others?

Originally posted by truejedi
what is your definition of raw power, since you gave all the other designations to others?

Raw Power, as in, crumpling AT-ST's, electrocuting a huge bull rancor to death, pulling/redirecting a ship from it's orbit, tossing TIE fighters around with ease, releasing a Fore Blast that hurt Palpatine, handing Vader his ass with the Force. Probably surviving getting that ship dropped on him. Generally outstanding displays of raw force energy being tossed around willy nilly. And we'll definitely see more over the top stuff in Unleashed II, that's the whole point of Starkiller, to show how powerful the Force can really be when it's wielded by someone who never holds back.

Nihilus' Drain is full of speculative holes. Timing primarily. Targets are another. Kills all of Katarr but can't get a Mandalorian strike fleet?


Strongest raw power: Palpatine. The kind of sheer energy needed to create the Force Storm, and to fine-tune to a teleporter is amazing. Marek's got nothin'. Nihilus' raising a fleet out of a gravity well is a second, I'd say. Though, again, not enough details.

Strongest potential: Anakin. Lucas has made that clear.

Strongest Potential realized: Technically, the dustmite that reaches its full potential is strongest. This one's too ambiguous.

Strongest Overall: Palpatine/Luke. Luke's weird though. Fluctuating abilities and all.

But the Nexus storm wasn't just raw power, it was power mixed with skill. If Starkiller tried to pull it off, it'd either blow up in his face, or it would probably be what Palpatines became when it destabilized and started destroying everything, only on a much larger scale.

You're right. Palpatine's got amazing raw power and skill.

Originally posted by KingD19
Raw Power, as in, crumpling AT-ST's, electrocuting a huge bull rancor to death, pulling/redirecting a ship from it's orbit, tossing TIE fighters around with ease, releasing a Fore Blast that hurt Palpatine, handing Vader his ass with the Force. Probably surviving getting that ship dropped on him. Generally outstanding displays of raw force energy being tossed around willy nilly. And we'll definitely see more over the top stuff in Unleashed II, that's the whole point of Starkiller, to show how powerful the Force can really be when it's wielded by someone who never holds back.

oh,ok. I simply disagree then.

Palpatine.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Nihilus' Drain is full of speculative holes. Timing primarily. Targets are another. Kills all of Katarr but can't get a Mandalorian strike fleet?

To be fair, Nihilus sees the Force in the same manner sight-oriented sentients see bright light. It's the scope that attracts his attention, because he is as Kreia suggests rather detached except for the crusade to feed. Considering he holds his own ship together against the endless vacuum of space and yet still has the ability to move about independently and mind-control sentients, destroy planets full of Force users, etc. I can only conclude that the scope of his powers - however narrow they may seem in comparison with Starkiller - are immense. Only certain Sith have shown such scopes, and usually with rituals or devices aiding them.




I don't follow this. Sidious, while undeniably powerful as of the Dark Empire comics, does not consistently show Force power on the same scope as Nihilus. Also, since he falls under the movie characters' roster and is concluded by Lucas himself to be unable to surpass the Skywalkers in raw potential, I fail to see how he could be the end-all of Force users within the movie rosters.



Just to be clear, Lucas does not even pay attention to the Expanded Universe, so this statement should not be a blanket statement to cover all Star Wars. Anakin has the raw potential to bypass Yoda, who himself could create a seal against space itself in Dark Rendezvous. But this doesn't mean he has the greatest potential in history, or in the future for that matter. Lucas doesn't even make clear what the factors are which affect midi-chlorians.



Disagreed with both accounts since Nihilus is clearly on another plane, but I'll add that Luke is unjustly weakened in some media and overpowered in others. I wish Lucas had taken steps to prevent the novels from spiraling out of control.

^ I'll take care of this very soon. But first, H3.

AR
To be fair, Nihilus sees the Force in the same manner sight-oriented sentients see bright light. It's the scope that attracts his attention, because he is as Kreia suggests rather detached except for the crusade to feed.

According to what reliable source does he perceive the Force in such a manner?



Is the Ravager destroyed when Nihilus dies?






Palpatine operates on a magnitude on par and sometimes in excess of what we've seen from Nihilus.



Of course he does. The Dark Empire Sourcebook makes it clear that Palpatine can use Force Storms to not only disintegrate fleets of warships, but "tear the surfaces off of planets." His manipulation and transformation of the planetary Byss from an otherwise nascent planet into "one of the most powerful dark side sites in the galaxy" (Byss and the Core Worlds) makes it clear that he's not only capable of planetary destruction but also non-destructive manipulation. Not to mention that he enslaved Byss's 20 billion inhabitants to his will.



If we define "raw power" as midichlorian count or potential, yes, Palpatine falls beneath Anakin and Luke. But in demonstrations of raw strength and ferocious ability, he exceeds both of them (except for a couple of powers used by Luke later in life).



Anakin has at least the highest midichlorian count in galactic history according to both the Essential Guide to the Force and the Complete Visual Dictionary. That doesn't necessarily indicate the highest potential, of course, unless midichlorians were the only tool for measuring Force potential since the establishment of the Jedi Order.



He's on another plane from most people, but not all.

Ashoka Tano!

Originally posted by Gideon


Anakin has at least the highest midichlorian count in galactic history according to both the Essential Guide to the Force and the Complete Visual Dictionary. That doesn't necessarily indicate the highest potential, of course, unless midichlorians were the only tool for measuring Force potential since the establishment of the Jedi Order.



Does that include post-Anakin force users? They didn't exactly have midichlorian counters post-old order.

I'd think the other Skywalkers would be fairly close at least.

Diluted though. Anakin's quasi-virginal birth by "the Force" itself would give him a step-up in midi numbers. The generations being diluted by Padme and Han would take it a dip. Not so much Mara though. Why we're expecting great things from Ben.

I agree Ben will be the strongest...Anakin is his Grandfather, Luke is his Father, Mara is his Mother, the force itself is his Great Grandfather etc. That being said the original Sith Lords with more info on them would have to be the strongest force users due to the fact they found and developed the "Dark Side". But that is just my opinion.

Originally posted by SithAce_1
they found and developed the "Dark Side"

Gideon:

"Is the Ravager destroyed when Nihilus dies?"

Not instantly, although when exactly it would been destroyed if the bombs hadn't gone off, no one knows.

However, it is explicitly stated Nihilus held the ship together with the Force; the ship should not have existed, yet it still cruised through space. Nihilus kept its crew alive, or rather half-alive, with his power, even though it was exposed to the vacuum of space.

"Palpatine operates on a magnitude on par and sometimes in excess of what we've seen from Nihilus."

You're using faulty logic.

Freedon Nadd used the Force to incapacitate an extremely powerful Jedi Master from lightyears away. Does that mean Nadd could incapacitate every single living being in several star systems simultaneously from across the galaxy? No.

Sidious, ALONG WITH HIS DARK SIDE ADEPTS I might add, gradually leached the life force of the population of Byss. Very gradually - and the people of Byss had already given their will to the Dark Side Adepts and their Master.

Leaching life force to bolster one's power is not unprecedented; heck, even Nihilus' ability to kill an entire world was not unique to him, but Sidious sure didn't have the ability, just as he didn't have the ability to instakill enemies with an assortment of Sith spells, or create talismans that would prevent anyone from harming him without his consent.

Sidious didn't leave pile of corpses strewn over an entire planet turned to ash in his wake like Nihilus did.

Sorry... I think I just fell in love with those emoticons.

"His manipulation and transformation of the planetary Byss from an otherwise nascent planet into "one of the most powerful dark side sites in the galaxy" (Byss and the Core Worlds) makes it clear that he's not only capable of planetary destruction but also non-destructive manipulation. Not to mention that he enslaved Byss's 20 billion inhabitants to his will."

I would like to add that the Dark Side Adepts were responsible for much of this; it's like how Kaan AND the rest of the Sith Lords created and unleashed the thought bomb. It was not as if Kaan just suddenly decided to kill Ruusan.

Rakatan Temples were also on Byss. I think anyone who has played KOTOR knows what that means...

"Anakin has at least the highest midichlorian count in galactic history according to both the Essential Guide to the Force and the Complete Visual Dictionary. That doesn't necessarily indicate the highest potential, of course, unless midichlorians were the only tool for measuring Force potential since the establishment of the Jedi Order."

Agreed.

before i answer i have a question......since the force unleashed good ending is considered canon....wouldn't star killer be up in the top ranks since he could do things other couldn't?

He is definately up there. Top 10-15 imo.

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
before i answer i have a question......since the force unleashed good ending is considered canon....wouldn't star killer be up in the top ranks since he could do things other couldn't? Galen was able to literally rip a Star Destroyer out of the air and force it to the ground (a ridiculously uber TK feat right there) - force lightning was his plaything - he developed farsight after converting to the light side of the force - he shit stomped Vader - and not only did he resist/deflect Palpatine's force lightning with his own force powers, but he was able to advance against said lightning (something not even Yoda managed.) That said, Palpatine likely wasn't bluffing when he remarked on Galen having the potential to equal him.

Anyhow, I agree with a top 10-15 ranking for him.

Give it till Force unleased 2 and then he'll be at the top.

I can already smell the Stuish.

Originally posted by Galan007
Galen was able to literally rip a Star Destroyer out of the air and force it to the ground (a ridiculously uber TK feat right there) - force lightning was his plaything - he developed farsight after converting to the light side of the force - he shit stomped Vader - and not only did he resist/deflect Palpatine's force lightning with his own force powers, but he was able to advance against said lightning (something not even Yoda managed.) That said, Palpatine likely wasn't bluffing when he remarked on Galen having the potential to equal him.

Anyhow, I agree with a top 10-15 ranking for him.

indeed! that's why asked about him being in the top.....I loved that game.....i got the game...i got the graphic novel and the novel.......

my friends say im stupid because they thought the story was lame but i think it was great!



Originally posted by Nephthys
Give it till Force unleased 2 and then he'll be at the top.

I can already smell the Stuish.

well i read possibly a rumor that Marek is gonna have a clone in the TFU2....

EDIT: here http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=287835847759&topic=32675

Originally posted by Galan007
Galen was able to literally rip a Star Destroyer out of the air and force it to the ground (a ridiculously uber TK feat right there)


This didn't happen.

HOwever, the rest of your post is correct.

He redirected a powerless, falling star destroyer. Still Uber, but certainly less so.

Originally posted by truejedi
He redirected a powerless, falling star destroyer. Still Uber, but certainly less so. Ah, you're right.

Galen was still impressive as hell though... Especially given his very short run.

AncientSithLord
Not instantly,

Good.

Kind've nails the coffin shut on the idea that he held the ship together through his own power alone, yes?



By what omniscient narrator?



I'm not.



I'm not certain what this has to do with anything, but just for giggles, who is this "extremely powerful Jedi Master" and what source accredits him with such power?



Interesting assessment of the situation. The sources that I've seen make no mention of the dark side adepts assisting the Emperor in this situation. What source do you have?



False.

"Slowly but steadily, he used his dark Force powers to enslave the people on the world and drain their life energies to fuel his own vile experiments." -- Byss and the Deep Core



Palpatine had no need for amulets or talismans, his ridiculous feats of strength were performed without such devices. Palpatine claimed the ability in the Dark Empire Sourcebook to be capable of defeating enemies from afar, and the same source makes it abundantly clear that his Force Storm could tear the surfaces off worlds -- he's capable of planetary destruction and very casually.



This is faulty logic. When did he attempt to apply the Force in such a manner and fail to reach the effect you mention?

Sorry... I think I just fell in love with those emoticons.



Sorry, hearsay is irrelevant here. Cite your sources appropriately.

1. He's referring to Nadd lashing out at Arca from Korriban. The feat itself is incredible considering Nadd is a force ghost and he's force pushing a live jedi master thousands of light years away. However, this is irrelevant.

2. And the omniscient character would be Colonel Tobin, a master of all aspects of the force

Did Tobin get his PhD in Forceology?

i wish this thread was spelled correctly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Give it till Force unleased 2 and then he'll be at the top.
Nah. That would be Gaalen Marek, not Galen Marek.

think they are going to do the clone thing? I wondered how they would get around the fact that he died.

Apparently Vader goes to Kamino to clone Marek but he (Gaalen?) runs amok and goes to Dagobah. So says Wookiee which cites a press release.

blah on clones. I was hoping for something more original.

Star Wars copped out of originality when it brought back the Death Star.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Apparently Vader goes to Kamino to clone Marek but he (Gaalen?) runs amok and goes to Dagobah. So says Wookiee which cites a press release.

indeed...the clone is also suppose to start to experience memories that aren't his own

Okay, I'll post a proper reply later Gideon, but I would like to point out the idea that Palpatine mastered nearly all Force techniques is ridiculous. A single quote from the Dark Empire Sourcebook saying Palpatine was BELIEVED to have mastered all KNOWN (in that day and time, I might add, when much knowledge of the Force had been lost) Force powers does not prove anything; once Palpatine actually turns enemies to dust with his mere gaze, strikes enemies down from lightyears away and drains entire planets a la Nihilus, then I say he might be on the same level as the ancient Sith.

Meanwhile, I'd like to point out a much more definite statement regarding the powers of Freedon Nadd, from the TOTJ Companion:

"Freedon Nadd has knowledge of all Jedi and Sith Force powers presented herein as well as those abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes." So, that would mean Nadd possessed the following powers:

Absorb/Dissipate Energy
Accelerate Healing
Concentration
Contort/Escape
Control Disease
Control Pain
Detoxify Poiso
Emptiness
Enhance Attribute
Force of Will
Hibernation Trance
Instinctive Astrogation, Control
Rage
Reduce Injury
Remain Conscious
Remove Fatigue
Resist Stun
Short-Term Memory Enhancment
Beast Languages
Combat Sense
Danger Sense
Instinctive Astrogation, Sense
Life Detection
Life Sense
Life Web
Magnify Senses
Postcognition
Predict Natural Disaster
Receptive Telepathy
Sense Force
Sense Force Potential
Sense Path
Translation
Weather Sense
Injure/Kill
Telekinesis
Farseeing
Life Bond
Lightsaber Combat
Projective Telepathy
Accelerate Another's Healing
Control Another's Disease
Control Another's Pain
Control Breathing
Detoxify Poison in Another
Feed on Dark Side
Force Lightning
Inflict Pain
Place Another in Hibernation Trance
Remove Another's Fatigue
Return Another to Consciousness
Transfer Force
Affect Mind
Battle Meditation
Control Mind
Create Force Storms
Doppleganger
Drain Life Essence
Enhanced Coordination
Force Harmony
Projected Fighting
Telekinetic Kill
Transfer Life
Dim Other's Senses
Lesser Force Shield
Bolt of Hatred
Dark Side Web
Aura of Uneasiness
Electronic Manipulation
Waves of Darkness
Force Wind
Drain Life Energy
Memory Wipe

Impressive, eh? This is aside from (undoubtedly many) forgotten ancient Sith abilities; I'd expect thought bombs, instakill Sith spells etc. would be under that category.

Nadd's power "on-screen" if you will can be shown as he survived as a Sith spirit, turned an entire planet into a dark side world infused with his power, and incapacitated the powerful Jedi Master Arca Jeth from lightyears away.

This is Freedon Nadd, hardly the most powerful of the ancient Sith either; indeed he was destroyed by Exar Kun, who found and studied an uncounted number of Jedi and Sith artifacts, tomes, etc.

He's made this into a Feat War of epic proportions.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He's made this into a Feat War of epic proportions.

Its a rather Epic Feat.

that's a pretty damnable quote. (the one about "all the techniques herein" The only thing we can say is surely Sidious knew them as well.

Originally posted by AncientSithLord
TOTJ Companion:

"Freedon Nadd has knowledge of all Jedi and Sith Force powers presented herein as well as those abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes." So, that would mean Nadd possessed the following powers:




Correct me if I'm wrong, but judging from that quote, no. Knowledge doesn't mean he can use them. Only that he knows of them. Furthermore, if he can use them, to what degree would that be?

Also I highly doubt he could Force Storm.

we do assume Sidious can use many of the techniques that he learned of from the Holocrons.

That list doesn't challenge the massive scale of sidious's power, tho.

Gameplay mechanics?

That would be my first counter.

The next would be to point out that Sidious had access to everything that Hord had.

Then I'd remember that this isn't a feat war or important in the least and go back to my bagel.

What about Abeloth?

Clearly its the guy in that prison-planet. awecraz

Darth Inmate.

Darth Dropped-The-Soap.

Kaja Sinis is generally considered the strongest.

Liiiiiiiiiiiiinkatuuuuuuuude

Gotta go with Abeloth myself.

Abeloth is so fail.

Or as the French say: "La fail."

En fait, tu voulais dire que "Abeloth est un echac."

Do you actually know French, or did you use Google translate? Because I hear that's how everyone communicates with France these days.

Didn't even know people bothered communicating with France anymore.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Do you actually know French, or did you use Google translate? Because I hear that's how everyone communicates with France these days.

J'ai pris francais pour deux ans et demi.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
J'ai pris francais pour deux ans et demi. It's almost 11 here, why do you wanna know?

Quoi?

Surrender?

Je ne comprends pas ce qu'il a dit.

You leave my mother out of this. uhuh

The way I hear it its pretty hard for him to leave your mother 'out' of anything.

teh butsecks.

Nonsense.

French history is merely centuries of defeats and surrenders. Ergo it would be the antithesis of a Frenchman to "plant his flag in foreign soil." ahuh

Allez, je suis juste un Indien parlant un peu francaise.

J'ai oublie la plupart de ce que j'ai appris.

Plupart was Pluto's cousin--he belonged to Donald.

English, kthx.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Nonsense.

French history is merely centuries of defeats and surrenders. Ergo it would be the antithesis of a Frenchman to "plant his flag in foreign soil." ahuh

http://www.alecm.com/images/main/2004-09-30_FrenchSurrender.jpg

Originally posted by KingD19
Raw Power, as in, crumpling AT-ST's, electrocuting a huge bull rancor to death, pulling/redirecting a ship from it's orbit, tossing TIE fighters around with ease, releasing a Fore Blast that hurt Palpatine, handing Vader his ass with the Force. Probably surviving getting that ship dropped on him. Generally outstanding displays of raw force energy being tossed around willy nilly. And we'll definitely see more over the top stuff in Unleashed II, that's the whole point of Starkiller, to show how powerful the Force can really be when it's wielded by someone who never holds back. Actually the only reason vader lost to starkiller the first time is because vader was reckless and starkiller was fighting smart. but the next time vader and starkiller matched up, Vader one the fight by keeping his cool and dissarmed starkiller. Vader's only limitations are himself as darth Sidious is well aware of. as for starkiller, i tend to not place much emphasis on him because he was created for a video game. If we are talking about feets then Luke has everyone beat in that department.

Originally posted by Galan007
Galen was able to literally rip a Star Destroyer out of the air and force it to the ground (a ridiculously uber TK feat right there) - force lightning was his plaything - he developed farsight after converting to the light side of the force - he shit stomped Vader - and not only did he resist/deflect Palpatine's force lightning with his own force powers, but he was able to advance against said lightning (something not even Yoda managed.) That said, Palpatine likely wasn't bluffing when he remarked on Galen having the potential to equal him.

Anyhow, I agree with a top 10-15 ranking for him. Starkiller did not rip a star destroyer from orbit, he redirected the falling star destroyer. and luke had the potential to not just equal palpatine, but to surpass him.

Originally posted by Darth Magpa
Actually the only reason vader lost to starkiller the first time is because vader was reckless and starkiller was fighting smart. but the next time vader and starkiller matched up, Vader one the fight by keeping his cool and dissarmed starkiller. I think you have these two events backward.

Originally posted by Darth Magpa
If we are talking about feets then Luke has everyone beat in that department. Yes, Luke's feet are f*cking huge and smelly.

Originally posted by Darth Magpa
Actually the only reason vader lost to starkiller the first time is because vader was reckless and starkiller was fighting smart. but the next time vader and starkiller matched up, Vader one the fight by keeping his cool and dissarmed starkiller. Vader's only limitations are himself as darth Sidious is well aware of. as for starkiller, i tend to not place much emphasis on him because he was created for a video game. If we are talking about feets then Luke has everyone beat in that department.
Nicely put but you are wrong about Luke.

Tenebrae, Sidious and Nihilus have most impressive feats in the whole mythos till date.

Pure power wise, some dark side practitioners top the chart in the whole mythos.

Lucas's statements reflect upon his works; not necessarily upon EU. Lucas admitted that EU is like a sandbox in which authors push boundaries.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nicely put but you are wrong about Luke.

Tenebrae, Sidious and Nihilus have most impressive feats in the whole mythos till date.

Pure power wise, some dark side practitioners top the chart in the whole mythos.

Largely because Lightsiders rarely have cause to directly use such wide-scale power, but they do match up well in direct conflict. Luke did beat clone Sidious, and Tython beat Tenebrae, after all.

Didn't Luke turn a whole planet invisible at one point?

I suspect Mortis-state Anakin might have been the strongest force user ever. I'm not sure even current Luke could have overpowered two of the Ones with the force.

Given that the website says Anakin's potential would have made him the most powerful Force user in history, I'mma have to agree thur.

Which website?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Given that the website says Anakin's potential would have made him the most powerful Force user in history, I'mma have to agree thur.
What this genius doesn't realizes is that this assertion doesn't fits in EU.

---

Anakin cannot become the most powerful Force-user in history! Period. Luke had similar potential and he is still heavily outclassed by some entities and/or individuals in power.

Originally posted by steveholt956
Which website?
Here: http://starwars.com/explore/encyclopedia/characters/anakinskywalker/

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What this genius doesn't realizes is that this assertion doesn't fits in EU.

---

Anakin cannot become the most powerful Force-user in history! Period. Luke had similar potential and he is still heavily outclassed by some entities and/or individuals in power.

Anakin would have been about twice as powerful as Sidious were he to have reached his true potential. No other ordinary Force User is that powerful. Period.

Only the One's and other God-like entities are beyond that and I sincerely doubt Tempest or the website was including them.

Either way, you can't just deny the official star wars website because it doesn't fit into your view of the EU.

No, I am including all Force users with the possible exception of Abeloth.

Even Bandon?

Let's not get hasty. Brandon doesn't so much use the Force as he permits it to exist independent of his own divine powers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anakin would have been about twice as powerful as Sidious were he to have reached his true potential. No other ordinary Force User is that powerful. Period.
That is G-canon Sidious.

Sidious (DE) is an entity much like Tenebrae (Sith Emperor). These individuals did not rely upon biological means such as Midichlorian count to draw strength from; they siphoned energies from other sources to fuel their power instead. These two are unnatural like entities.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Only the One's and other God-like entities are beyond that and I sincerely doubt Tempest or the website was including them.

Either way, you can't just deny the official star wars website because it doesn't fit into your view of the EU.
It is not "my view" per say. The term "Force-user" implies everything which is a Force-user and not just sentient beings.

How is being G-canon Sidious a detriment to Anakins potential? It only shows how insanely powerful he could have been.

LOL, I'm responding to a 3-year-old post...

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Strongest raw power: Palpatine. The kind of sheer energy needed to create the Force Storm, and to fine-tune to a teleporter is amazing. Marek's got nothin'.

Although Palpatine's Form storms stand as perhaps the most impressive feats in the mythos, one must remember that the fact that Palpatine needed to develop an entirely new Force ability indicates that he cannot replicate the feat using mere telekinesis or lightning. So it's dubious as to whether his "raw power" exceeds that of, say, Luke or Kyp, who manipulate dorvin basals with raw telekinesis.



IIRC, don't we only know this through pathological-liar Traya?

For all we know, he just used tractor beams.

The ancient sith's feats are apocryphal like that.



Luke insinuates, and Kyp even claims in NJO, that Durron has more potential than Luke Skywalker...but it looks like that's been retconned.




I think the OP's referring to the most powerful any Force user actually became, so I suppose "potential" was simply faulty wording.

...or not, given the "strongest overall" category.

I'd point to Luke, Palpatine, Yoda and the Sith Emperor.

------

I'd add in the categories "most prodigious learner" and "widest Force knowledge", and nominate Luke Skywalker for the former, and Odan Urr, Vitiate, Palpatine and Yoda for the latter.

Originally posted by Master Han
IIRC, don't we only know this through pathological-liar Traya?

For all we know, he just used tractor beams.

The ancient sith's feats are apocryphal like that.


No. A loading screen, Colonel Tobin and the Kotor Campaign Guide all confirm that Nihilus raised it from the surface.

Nihilus didn't command any fleets or ships before then, so he couldn't have done that.

Not all of them. Exar Kun performed a similar feat to Nihilus with a 215 meter long ship and according to Khem Val, Tulak Hord once pulled a ship roughly 315 meters long out of the sky.

And a bunch of nigh-untrained neophytes focus-pushed an entire fleet of Star Destroyers perhaps upward of a lightyear away in what is probably one of the first examples of overpowered feats in the EU.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And a bunch of nigh-untrained neophytes focus-pushed an entire fleet of Star Destroyers perhaps upward of a lightyear away in what is probably one of the first examples of overpowered feats in the EU.

Um, firstly you're referring to the Jedi who drew power from the temples on Yavin IV to unleash energies so great, one of their members die as a side effect.

Secondly, IIRC it wasn't a lightyear, but "merely" out of the solar system.

Thirdly, given that any arbitrary impetus would carry an object in space "away" from the solar system so long as it reaches the star's escape velocity (or less, if we don't take the condition as permanent), the feat is really only impressive if:

a) the ship was close to the star or some significant gravitational field
b) the star destroyer's engines were operational, and the push was so great, it overpowered its multi-thousand G thrust capabilities, rather than disabling it ESB ion cannon style.


Originally posted by Nephthys
No. A loading screen, Colonel Tobin and the Kotor Campaign Guide all confirm that Nihilus raised it from the surface.

Nihilus didn't command any fleets or ships before then, so he couldn't have done that.

Not all of them. Exar Kun performed a similar feat to Nihilus with a 215 meter long ship and according to Khem Val, Tulak Hord once pulled a ship roughly 315 meters long out of the sky.

Well then, time to come up with mental gymnastics to reconcile these feats with Yoda's struggle-to-stop-a-pillar scene.

Good luck. It was revealed in The Jedi Path, that the Jedi have a set of seven stones called the Muntuur stones that are used to test telekinetic ability. Yoda says that he's only able to lift 5 of these stones after he turned 700.


The kicker? The heaviest stone is only 5 tons, meaning that at his best Yoda can only lift 25 tons, likely a lot less.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Good luck. It was revealed in The Jedi Path, that the Jedi have a set of seven stones called the Muntuur stones that are used to test telekinetic ability. Yoda says that he's only able to lift 5 of these stones after he turned 700.


The kicker? The heaviest stone is only 5 tons, meaning that at his best Yoda can only lift 25 tons, likely a lot less.

That's...got to be the biggest pile of crap I've ever read. I'm exaggerating, of course.

I suppose whoever invented that concept forgot all about Sidious' flinging of senate pods like toys in RotS. I suppose he's orders of magnitude stronger than Yoda now?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Exar Kun performed a similar feat to Nihilus with a 215 meter long ship

When?

Its says so in the Kotor Campaign Guide, under Derriphan-class battleship: 'During the Great Sith War, Exar Kun would raise the ship and put it back into service, similar to the way Nihilus would raise the Ravager from the ruined surface of Malachor V.'

- pg. 163

I remember Kun finding an ancient Sith battleship from when I read those comics a few years ago, but I don't recall how he raised it. Given the mention of Nihilus though.....

Originally posted by Master Han
That's...got to be the biggest pile of crap I've ever read. I'm exaggerating, of course.

I suppose whoever invented that concept forgot all about Sidious' flinging of senate pods like toys in RotS. I suppose he's orders of magnitude stronger than Yoda now?

I know. I chortled when I read it. I can't wait to use that puppy in a thread.

The senate pods are a lot less than 25 tons. Its still pretty heavy, but nowhere near what a Jedi like Yoda should be capable of.

I suppose it's more a matter of having to control multiple stones simultaneously than sheer weight, given that Yoda stops that giant pillar that probably weighs more than the stones (only the heaviest one is five tons).

Im going to try to make a list.

1.The Son
2.The Daughter
3.Sidious
4.Yoda
5.Plagueis
6.Sith Emperor
7.Vader
8.Revan(not sure)
9.Darth Krayt
10.Darth Bane(not sure)

What y'all think of my list?. Not sure on everything on it to be honest. Anyfeedback or suggestions!?.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its says so in the Kotor Campaign Guide, under Derriphan-class battleship: 'During the Great Sith War, Exar Kun would raise the ship and put it back into service, similar to the way Nihilus would raise the Ravager from the ruined surface of Malachor V.'

- pg. 163

I remember Kun finding an ancient Sith battleship from when I read those comics a few years ago, but I don't recall how he raised it. Given the mention of Nihilus though.....

Hmm, interesting. I believe I have the TotJ comics somewhere... I'll have to check this out.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Im going to try to make a list.

1.The Son
2.The Daughter
3.Sidious
4.Yoda
5.Plagueis
6.Sith Emperor
7.Vader
8.Revan(not sure)
9.Darth Krayt
10.Darth Bane(not sure)

Shouldn't The Father be at the top?

Originally posted by Master Han
I suppose it's more a matter of having to control multiple stones simultaneously than sheer weight, given that Yoda stops that giant pillar that probably weighs more than the stones (only the heaviest one is five tons).

What about that scene in the clone wars when he lifts about a thousand droids into the air?

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Im going to try to make a list.

1.The Son
2.The Daughter
3.Sidious
4.Yoda
5.Plagueis
6.Sith Emperor
7.Vader
8.Revan(not sure)
9.Darth Krayt
10.Darth Bane(not sure)

Hmmm.

In terms of pure, raw Force power:

1. Zonama Sekot
2. The Father
3. The Siblings
4. Abeloth
5. Unuthul
6. Luke Skywalker
7. Palpatine
8. Kyp Durron
9. Yoda
10. Plagueis
11. Sith Emperor
12. Caedus
13. Vader
14. Revan
15. Satele Shan
16. Revan
17. Bane
18. Malgus
...
I probably forgot a few names, and there are a few unknowns such as Nomi Sunrider that are suggested to be extremely powerful, and some of the later part of my list are quite arbitrary (ie., Vader above Exar Kun), but oh well.

What makes Zonama Sekot so great?

Also the Hero of Tython and the Barsen'thor should be higher on the list. Above Revan and Satale at least imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What makes Zonama Sekot so great?

Also the Hero of Tython and the Barsen'thor should be higher on the list. Above Revan and Satale at least imo.

Okay. Put HoT/Barsen'thor around Vaders number maybe higher.

Do you like my list.

So I checked TotJ and it certainly doesn't seem that Exar Kun used the force to lift the ship off Yavin 4. When he first finds it he says, "If it still operates I won't be stranded on this moon" and afterwards we see him flying it and he says "Naga Sadow's ship was perfectly preserved."

So yeah, seems he just flew it off the moon.

Maybe.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Okay. Put HoT/Barsen'thor around Vaders number maybe higher.

Do you like my list.

I was talking about Master Han's list.

Yours is fine.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was talking about Master Han's list.

Yours is fine.

Thanks buddy.

Neph, what am I looking for here?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Good luck. It was revealed in The Jedi Path, that the Jedi have a set of seven stones called the Muntuur stones that are used to test telekinetic ability. Yoda says that he's only able to lift 5 of these stones after he turned 700.


The kicker? The heaviest stone is only 5 tons, meaning that at his best Yoda can only lift 25 tons, likely a lot less.


Yoda being weak as shit in canon. Lawl.

That line is nothing new.

What do you think about it?

Originally posted by Nephthys
What do you think about it?

Another stylistic discrepancy that only indicates incoherence between the films and EU.

I've had this book for going on 3 years, it's nothing new.

Odd how one as objective and possessing of single standards as you never thought to bring this up in a debate as evidence of Yoda's telekinetic limits.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Odd how one as objective and possessing of single standards as you never thought to bring this up in a debate as evidence of Yoda's telekinetic limits.

I never had any reason to do so.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jutjNPIoc5I/URFkvmKKZWI/AAAAAAAABIw/EsWe0pcDuBc/s1600/FrySquint-gif.gif

Originally posted by Master Han
Um, firstly you're referring to the Jedi who drew power from the temples on Yavin IV to unleash energies so great, one of their members die as a side effect.

Secondly, IIRC it wasn't a lightyear, but "merely" out of the solar system.

Thirdly, given that any arbitrary impetus would carry an object in space "away" from the solar system so long as it reaches the star's escape velocity (or less, if we don't take the condition as permanent), the feat is really only impressive if:

a) the ship was close to the star or some significant gravitational field
b) the star destroyer's engines were operational, and the push was so great, it overpowered its multi-thousand G thrust capabilities, rather than disabling it ESB ion cannon style. Um, firstly, obviously. "A bunch of nigh-untrained neophytes" doesn't describe anyone else, does it?

Secondly, "out of a solar system" is a vague description, as no set boundary of a system is described and no exact distance is given. Given that our own solar system has no "boundary" of its own, and the Oort cloud is roughly a light year out, I'd say yeah "perhaps upward of a lightyear."

Thirdly, laws of motion aren't something Star Wars seems overly concerned about, and given that the 17 very large capital ships were blasted head-over-heel countless tens, if not hundreds of billions of miles in a very short time span, this means the ships broke the speed of light. If you want to argue the application of physics in this instance, go gripe to Kevin J Anderson.

Fourthly, counting like this is f*cking pretentious.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Im going to try to make a list.

1.The Son
2.The Daughter
3.Sidious
4.Yoda
5.Plagueis
6.Sith Emperor
7.Vader
8.Revan(not sure)
9.Darth Krayt
10.Darth Bane(not sure)
Improved:-

TIER 1:

The Father; Abeloth;

TIER 2:

Sidious; Sith Emperor

TIER 3:

The Son; The Daughter

TIER 4:

Luke; HoT

TIER 5:

Plagueis; Yoda; Revan

TIER 6:

Krayt; Bane

TIER 7:

Vader

Originally posted by Master Han
Hmmm.

In terms of pure, raw Force power:

1. Zonama Sekot
2. The Father
3. The Siblings
4. Abeloth
5. Unuthul
6. Luke Skywalker
7. Palpatine
8. Kyp Durron
9. Yoda
10. Plagueis
11. Sith Emperor
12. Caedus
13. Vader
14. Revan
15. Satele Shan
16. Revan
17. Bane
18. Malgus
It doesn't makes sense to make a list like this; you need to consider ground realities behind feats/capabilities of these characters.

1. Sidious and Sith Emperor leeched energies from countless beings to fuel their power; their power so immense that they could inflict destruction on planetary-scale with their talents, should they fully concentrate. These two should rank very high in any list.

2. Luke should be above UnuThul

3. Revan; Satele; Malgus; should be above Vader

4. Their are more characters who have amazing telekinetic feats but these are not so well-known.

5. Revan is not properly explored in the context of his Force abilities in existing literature/works involving him, though Mr. Karpyshyn claims that Revan is capable of very impressive feats.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Um, firstly, obviously. "A bunch of nigh-untrained neophytes" doesn't describe anyone else, does it?


Yes, my point being that, given that:

1. they harness energies from Yavin's temples
2. one of their members dies in the process

what is essentially a Force ritual isn't nearly as "overpowered" as you insinuate.



A lightyear is a rather arbitrary number to set a limit on how far the star destroyer travels, and IDK why you think bringing in astronomical phenomena specific to the area around our sol system is supposed to set any sort of limit, unless if you think Yavin IV resides in the sol system.

And Newton's first law sort of defeats the purpose of quantifying just how far out the star destroyer was pushed a certain "distance", unless if you factor in the star's (unknown) gravitational field.



You do realize that, if the laws of motion did not exist in SW, everything would look fundamentally different, right? Basic astronomical constants, such as planets not randomly stopping in the middle of space, and collisions appearing even remotely familiar, would be replaced by an irrational, bugs-bunny type of shit that we clearly don't see in G canon.

Secondly...er, also, Star Wars characters obviously believe that physics exist in their universe, since we hear about scientists, engineers and even theoretical physicists who still have jobs, and since Star Wars: Crucible suggests that Einstein's General Theory of Relativity is common knowledge; exactly how do you expect a technological society to function in a universe where there are no basic physical laws?

You see, physics existing in Star Wars is a logical necessity for the plot to work, and if you don't wish to apply logic to Star Wars...then all discussion becomes meaningless. It's called suspension of disbelief.




What makes you think they were blasted out of the star system "in a very short time span", and how did you perform the math to prove that said time span was such that the event exceeded light speed?

At the worst, you simply establish that the Jedi were using a Force technique other than telekinesis, which involves application of physical force and couldn't possibly accelerate something past lightspeed, and instead were possibly replicating Wankatine's wormhole move, or even hijacking the star destroyer's hyperdrive.



Well, my bad. That wasn't my intention (actually not sarcasm). Would it be less pretentious if I listed movie feats of similar levels of "wank" in standard number form?

1. Qui Gon Jinn and Obi Wan's ridiculous invisibility-speed feat in TPM. Michael Wong did a great analysis a while back:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=9851

Basically, they magically turn translucent, and then accelerate in the upwards of dozens of G's.

2. Qui Gon's melting the blast door in the same scene, and suffering no apparent burns, yet the melted metal should have melted his face (exaggeration).

3. Anakin's falling hundreds of meters and hitting a moving airspeeder with perfect timing, and suffering no apparent injuries or discomfort, despite having fallen at terminal velocity (IW:AotC confirms he is in free fall for 600 meters) and accelerated upon impact within the timespan of a fraction of a second, both vertically and horizontally. Obi Wan just rolls his eyes and suggests that he does this frequently.

4. Anakin and Obi Wan fighting meters from molten hot lava without bursting into flames. What's interesting is that Lucas apparently realized that that should have happened, because as soon as Anakin tries his leeroy jenkins move and loses his limbs, he bursts into flames, presumably losing his Force barriers.

------------

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Improved:-

TIER 1:

The Father; Abeloth;



Perhaps I'm being a hypocrite for calling you out on this, but it's quite arbitrary to rank Abeloth above the son and the daughter.



Uh, no. Luke Skywalker and Yoda should be here.



Why is Luke two tiers below Sidious/Vitiate?

Why is Luke three tiers below an entity whose ass he routinely kicks?



Plagueis should move up. Yoda should be in the same tier as Palpatine and Luke, or possibly one lesser.



Aside from getting his ass kicked by holograms of ancient sith lords (one of which was Bane), what has Krayt done to put him on Bane's level?



In terms of raw Force power, I'd put Vader above Krayt and possibly Bane. He's 80% of OT Palpatine, and has ridiculous feats in TFU.

Also, you're forgetting Satele Shan, Malgus and Caedus, all of whom are possibly at or above Bane's level.





That's...not a very fair comparison to Jedi such as Skywalker that wouldn't unleash such levels of raw power even if he wanted to.

Also, the Sith Emperor drains Nathema using a rituals involving hundreds of sith lords - Nihilus's feat is arguably more impressive, as he appears to be able to drain planets without any prep time.

But in terms of raw power, Wankatine is massively above them both, and even above what we've seen from Abeloth (although she is probably capable of far worse), with his "destroy a NR fleet" Force storms.



It's suggested that UnuThul is actually more powerful than Luke, but that Skywalker was simply the more skilled combatant.



Satele and Revan, possibly. Malgus is implied to be less powerful in the Force than Shan.



"very impressive feats" doesn't mean much in the way of qualifying him. His almost-dies-to-six-mandalorians sort of dropped him down in my book.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, my point being that, given that:

1. they harness energies from Yavin's temples
2. one of their members dies in the process

what is essentially a Force ritual isn't nearly as "overpowered" as you insinuate.



A lightyear is a rather arbitrary number to set a limit on how far the star destroyer travels, and IDK why you think bringing in astronomical phenomena specific to the area around our sol system is supposed to set any sort of limit, unless if you think Yavin IV resides in the sol system.

And Newton's first law sort of defeats the purpose of quantifying just how far out the star destroyer was pushed a certain "distance", unless if you factor in the star's (unknown) gravitational field.



You do realize that, if the laws of motion did not exist in SW, everything would look fundamentally different, right? Basic astronomical constants, such as planets not randomly stopping in the middle of space, and collisions appearing even remotely familiar, would be replaced by an irrational, bugs-bunny type of shit that we clearly don't see in G canon.

Secondly...er, also, Star Wars characters obviously believe that physics exist in their universe, since we hear about scientists, engineers and even theoretical physicists who still have jobs, and since Star Wars: Crucible suggests that Einstein's General Theory of Relativity is common knowledge; exactly how do you expect a technological society to function in a universe where there are no basic physical laws?

You see, physics existing in Star Wars is a logical necessity for the plot to work, and if you don't wish to apply logic to Star Wars...then all discussion becomes meaningless. It's called suspension of disbelief.




What makes you think they were blasted out of the star system "in a very short time span", and how did you perform the math to prove that said time span was such that the event exceeded light speed?

At the worst, you simply establish that the Jedi were using a Force technique other than telekinesis, which involves application of physical force and couldn't possibly accelerate something past lightspeed, and instead were possibly replicating Wankatine's wormhole move, or even hijacking the star destroyer's hyperdrive.



Well, my bad. That wasn't my intention (actually not sarcasm). Would it be less pretentious if I listed movie feats of similar levels of "wank" in standard number form?

1. Qui Gon Jinn and Obi Wan's ridiculous invisibility-speed feat in TPM. Michael Wong did a great analysis a while back:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=9851

Basically, they magically turn translucent, and then accelerate in the upwards of dozens of G's.

2. Qui Gon's melting the blast door in the same scene, and suffering no apparent burns, yet the melted metal should have melted his face (exaggeration).

3. Anakin's falling hundreds of meters and hitting a moving airspeeder with perfect timing, and suffering no apparent injuries or discomfort, despite having fallen at terminal velocity (IW:AotC confirms he is in free fall for 600 meters) and accelerated upon impact within the timespan of a fraction of a second, both vertically and horizontally. Obi Wan just rolls his eyes and suggests that he does this frequently.

4. Anakin and Obi Wan fighting meters from molten hot lava without bursting into flames. What's interesting is that Lucas apparently realized that that should have happened, because as soon as Anakin tries his leeroy jenkins move and loses his limbs, he bursts into flames, presumably losing his Force barriers. It's been a while since I've seen someone miss the point by so wide a margin. Congratulations, I guess.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's been a while since I've seen someone miss the point by so wide a margin. Congratulations, I guess.

Your original contention was that the feat in question was vastly "overpowered" because it involved knocking a star destroyer out of a system, and yet further analysis reveals that you ignore a plethora of extenuating circumstances, such as, you know, channeling power through Yavin's temples, and one of their Jedi dying in the process, as well as the highly unquantifiable nature of the feat due to the ambiguity of exactly what knocking a star destroyer out of a system really entails, that it isn't inconsistent with the feats seen in G canon at all, especially some of those upper end ones (such as Qui Gon and Obi Wan turning invisible and accelerating at 60 G's in TPM).

Run on sentence aside, your "trololol science doesn't work in Star Wars!" debacle was a good laugh.

Originally posted by Master Han
Your original contention was that the feat in question was vastly "overpowered" because it involved knocking a star destroyer out of a system, and yet further analysis reveals that you ignore a plethora of extenuating circumstances, such as, you know, channeling power through Yavin's temples, and one of their Jedi dying in the process, as well as the highly unquantifiable nature of the feat due to the ambiguity of exactly what knocking a star destroyer out of a system really entails, that it isn't inconsistent with the feats seen in G canon at all, especially some of those upper end ones (such as Qui Gon and Obi Wan turning invisible and accelerating at 60 G's in TPM).

Run on sentence aside, your "trololol science doesn't work in Star Wars!" debacle was a good laugh. Yeah, I consider it overpowered. I consider many of the major Force feats in the EU to be overpowered. What of it?


You read "laws of motion isn't something that Star Wars seems overly concerned about" as "science doesn't work in Star Wars!" How did you make that huge leap in wording? And I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but in a fictional universe of hyperspace, robots, spaceships, magical force fields, gravity generators, energy shields, and laser beams... the laws of physics as we know them are... how to put it... not in existence. Star Wars is fiction, buddy, it doesn't actually take place a long time ago. Their laws of physics aren't ours, that should be sort of evident given the magical, unreal, unfeasible, and fantastical nature of their technology and mental force fields. But as a part-time fan of this fiction, I consider certain parts to be... overpowered in their power.


Do you-- and I ask this hesitantly-- do you hit the point yet?

EDIT: And it wasn't a Star Destroyer. It was 17 Star Destroyers. In orbit above the planet. And they were blasted "out of the system". System is always meant as "star system". That was a focused Force push from veritable noobs that launched 17, mile-long capital ships hundreds of miles up--sagans upon sagans of miles away. If that's not an overpowered Force feat, I don't know what is.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah, I consider it overpowered. I consider many of the major Force feats in the EU to be overpowered. What of it?


Your specific example is an extremely poor one. That some Jedi can pull off a feat by inadvertently sacrificing one of their own and channeling the powers of Yavin's temples is hardly overpowered.

Wankatine's Force storms might be "overpowered", but then again, he's supposed to be the most powerful sith lord in history.





OK, let me ask you this then:

If Newton's laws of motion don't apply to the Star Wars universe...why do we observe it all the time in the films, and in every single EU source?

Objects colliding with one another rebound with accelerations inversely proportional to their masses
planets perpetually orbit stars due to the centripetal acceleration caused by their gravitational fields
asteroids and other celestial bodies do not mysteriously stop or arbitrarily change direction...unless operated by an external force
SW thrusters include ion drives, which rely on Newton's third law by accelerating ions in the opposite direction of the vessel
objects thrown in a significant gravitational field appear to follow parabolic trajectories


You correctly point out that certain parts of SW technology do not conform with our understanding of physics, but, it is fallacious logic to assume that, aside from these explicitly described instances, the SW universe in general does not obey Newton's laws.

For example, take "inertial dampeners". They don't make any scientific sense, but the fact that their existence is even needed suggests that Newton's laws exist.

--------------

Oh, a quick google search found that all my attempts to get this through your thick skull were irrelevant:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Laws_of_Motion

Huh.

Also, read Saxton's (canon) ICS's.

Its an incredibly overpowered feat. Under similar circumstances, we've still not seen that kind of power from others.

Its only in the realms of believability because Dorsk 81 pushed himself well passed the limit to do it and there was a group of them channeling Yavin's power. Even then its an absurd feat.

Originally posted by Master Han
Your specific example is an extremely poor one. That some Jedi can pull off a feat by inadvertently sacrificing one of their own and channeling the powers of Yavin's temples is hardly overpowered.

Wankatine's Force storms might be "overpowered", but then again, he's supposed to be the most powerful sith lord in history.





OK, let me ask you this then:

If Newton's laws of motion don't apply to the Star Wars universe...why do we observe it all the time in the films, and in every single EU source?

Objects colliding with one another rebound with accelerations inversely proportional to their masses
planets perpetually orbit stars due to the centripetal acceleration caused by their gravitational fields
asteroids and other celestial bodies do not mysteriously stop or arbitrarily change direction...unless operated by an external force
SW thrusters include ion drives, which rely on Newton's third law by accelerating ions in the opposite direction of the vessel
objects thrown in a significant gravitational field appear to follow parabolic trajectories


You correctly point out that certain parts of SW technology do not conform with our understanding of physics, but, it is fallacious logic to assume that, aside from these explicitly described instances, the SW universe in general does not obey Newton's laws.

For example, take "inertial dampeners". They don't make any scientific sense, but the fact that their existence is even needed suggests that Newton's laws exist.

--------------

Oh, a quick google search found that all my attempts to get this through your thick skull were irrelevant:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Laws_of_Motion

Huh.

Also, read Saxton's (canon) ICS's. Jesus Christ, you insipid pedant. I said they weren't overly concerned as a glib remark on the fantastical nature of the Star Wars universe' physics. It wasn't an attack on their specific existence or application. That this stems from the use of a magical energy field of fictional nature should have been clue enough of that.


The Jedi pushed 17 mile-long capital ships clear out of a star system in an incredibly short amount of time. If the ships had been traveling at light speed it would have taken them till next year, but they were pushed out almost immediately:


He felt it strike the seventeen Star Destroyers, and they slammed backward like twigs in a typhoon. The Shockwave flung the entire fleet far out, cast them helplessly beyond the fringes of the Yavin System, their computers fried, their propulsion systems wrecked, still accelerating from the storm of the Force. Pellaeon's fleet of Star Destroyers went... away.

"He was here, sir," the tactical officer said. "The jammer satellite net is in place. The Jedi Knights have not sent any signals, as far as we can tell, and I do detect some ground activity. Heavy weapons fire in the jungles. Ground assault troops have been deployed-but the Star Destroyers are no longer here."

The sensor chief checked and rechecked her readings, shaking her head. She looked up at Daala. "There's no sign, sir. I've run a sweep all the way to the outer planets and I find no ships. No wreckage either. Vice Admiral Pellaeon was here at the jungle moon-but now he's gone.""


Lightyears in Star Wars are dissimilar, but comparable to ours. It takes about half an hour for light to get from here to Jupiter. If these ships were blasted at the speed of light (breaking relativity), and were hurdled not to the outer planets, but out of the entire freaking system, then it would still take many hours, even days, depending on your definition of system of boundaries. The battle didn't last that long. That Force Push sent those ships out well beyond lightspeed. By our standard, it was so powerful that it broke physics.


Of course I don't give two shits about that. What I care about is that Anderson has inserted permanently in to canon a notion that the Force is an unimaginable weapon of mass destruction. I don't care who was involved in the attack or what sacrifice was made, I care that it is now canonically possible to do such a thing. I care about the subtle, downplayed, localized Force of the OT, where the greatest extent was lifting an X-Wing and having a foggy premonition. Now it's a lightspeed-breaking projectile cannon. Or in KotOR II, a world eater. Or in Dark Empire, a wormhole. Or in LotF, a time travel machine. Or in TFU, a Kamehameha. Or in The Clone Wars a substitute for Harry Potter magic. Etc., etc.


Do you f*cking get what I'm saying yet, or does your egotistical pedantry still have more to say?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Jesus Christ, you insipid pedant. I said they weren't overly concerned as a glib remark on the fantastical nature of the Star Wars universe' physics. It wasn't an attack on their specific existence or application. That this stems from the use of a magical energy field of fictional nature should have been clue enough of that.


For someone who, upon a quick post search, appears to have the habit of carrying every post with a ridiculously smug and condescending sneer, you seem to have deluded yourself with the notion that your public posts are confidential in some form:





So don't try to lie to me. You attempted to support what was just a simple misunderstanding of an EU incident, which you could have conceded without any ill will, by falsely suggesting that the laws of motion don't exist in the Star Wars universe.

Not only does a quick wookieepedia search prove otherwise, but you clearly lack the scientific knowledge to realize that the laws of motion don't just apply to esoteric scientific experiments - they apply everywhere, and without them, reality would look fundamentally different, and we would not even exist. The SW universe would literally appear utterly alien and bugs-bunny esque without them.

-----

At the worst, you can correctly point out that I may have concentrated a little too much on a relatively unimportant part of the point, acting on a pet peeve of mine, but that doesn't mean that your primary contention was wrong.

And it's ridiculous that you're still arguing this point, when I just linked you to a wookieepedia page disproving it.




Only in very formal papers is the "multiple-light years" diameter of a star system used, whereas in more informal dialogue, and even in other formal discussions, the furthest orbiting point of Pluto is used instead, and that certainly would not take light a year to reach.

So we have two possible star system sizes: the furthest planetary orbit, or the furthest orbit of any remotely detectable body.

Using the former requires no violation of physics and no haxed revelation of Force telekinesis abilities that have never been suggested in the mythos. The latter requires all of the above. Ergo, occam's razor demands that we use the former explanation.

Hence, the feat is not nearly as impressive as you think it is.

EDIT:

Jesus, look what happens when you actually do the research,
it appears that the Yavin System only has three planets in it. So IDK why you're assuming it's just as large as the Sol system.




...yeah, you really haven't thought this argument through, have you?

Have you considered the fact that we have no idea how close Pellaeon's fleet already was from "edge" of the star system?

EDIT: Because apparently, Yavin IV is one of the celestial bodies furthest away from the system's star.

Have you considered the fact that the attack clearly did not kill Pellaeon with the massive acceleration, or presumably any of his crew?




And how do you know how long the battle lasted? How do you know how much delay there is between their being cast beyond the star system, and the tactical officer noticing that they are no longer orbiting Yavin IV? Particularly given that their communications presumably weren't operational.

-----------

And yet again, even if your interpretation of events is correct, we still have the fact that the attack required a dangerous ritual that killed one of the Jedi while siphoning energies from Yavin's temples.



Why Anderson? He's not the one who created I-can-destroy-fleets Wankatine.

KJA is actually a Star Wars minimalist, if anything.



Then perhaps you should blame Lucas, and his Jedi invisibility powers inserted into TPM.



Given that I never solidly disagreed with your overall assertion that the Force has become significantly more overt throughout the course of the franchise's history, and that I was merely nitpicking a specific incident, because I hate it when people take shit out of context...you're severely overreacting here.

And while some of your laundry list holds merit, you clearly haven't thought some of your complaints through.

For example, if you were to do the math, Satele Shan's "Kamehameha" is massively less energetic and powerful than Yoda's lifting of the X wing from the swamp, or Qui Gon and Obi Wan's magical super-speed. All it did was fling a sith against a tree. Ooohhhh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its an incredibly overpowered feat. Under similar circumstances, we've still not seen that kind of power from others.

Its only in the realms of believability because Dorsk 81 pushed himself well passed the limit to do it and there was a group of them channeling Yavin's power. Even then its an absurd feat.

How so?

You need to have a haxxed area of Force reserves (the Yavin IV temples) and several Force users, and there's a chance that some of them may die in the process. Even then, the result, a massive Force push capable of knocking star destroyers out of the star system - and maybe, maybe, accelerating them past lightspeed (but mysteriously harming nobody), is actually less powerful than many of Star Wars technology's capabilities, such as being able to blow up planets or travel at tens of millions of times the speed of light.

And from a narrative perspective, since your typical protagonists are not going to be channeling power from Yavin IV's temples in fatal rituals...it doesn't really break the plot.

The short answer was 'no', by the way.

Originally posted by Master Han
How so?

You need to have a haxxed area of Force reserves (the Yavin IV temples) and several Force users, and there's a chance that some of them may die in the process. Even then, the result, a massive Force push capable of knocking star destroyers out of the star system - and maybe, maybe, accelerating them past lightspeed (but mysteriously harming nobody), is actually less powerful than many of Star Wars technology's capabilities, such as being able to blow up planets or travel at tens of millions of times the speed of light.

And from a narrative perspective, since your typical protagonists are not going to be channeling power from Yavin IV's temples in fatal rituals...it doesn't really break the plot.


Its overpowered in regards to it being absurdly above practically all other uses of the Force and the fact that it was done by a group of noobs.

Lucien, I've been debating people long enough to see through the "I'll vaguely point towards my opponent's argument being crap without actually addressing it" bluffing tactic.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The short answer was 'no', by the way.

Is that your only attempt to cover up your backtracking from "Newton's laws don't work in Star Wars!" "um, I only meant that they don't work in this specific context!", rather than just cordially conceding the point?

As to why you think Satele Shan's Kamehameha is "overpowered" while Yoda's lifting the X wing out of the swamp isn't, when the latter would require the application of VASTLY greater force, beats me. Maybe you should have thought this through a little? Or did you just see the fancy blue special effects and just assume that it must mean mega-pwnage?

I'm well aware of, and even partially agree with, the overarching point that some of the EU lists wildly inconsistent and perhaps overpowered Force abilities. It's just that you're really horrible at debating it, and it makes for a good laugh.

-------

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its overpowered in regards to it being absurdly above practically all other uses of the Force and the fact that it was done by a group of noobs.

...a group of noobs inadvertently sacrificing one of their own, and needing to channel energies from Yavin temples?

From an in-universe standpoint, replicating what SW technology can already perform casually isn't nearly as overpowered as being able to violate causality through precognition and foresight.

From an out-of-universe narrative and thematic angle, the very special circumstances of the event, and short memory spans of most EU authors, prevent the protagonists from abusing it.

If you don't get it, you don't get it. It happens. I know people who defend the "inherent quality" of the prequels. I can't change their minds or yours.

Originally posted by Master Han
...a group of noobs inadvertently sacrificing one of their own, and needing to channel energies from Yavin temples?

From an in-universe standpoint, replicating what SW technology can already perform casually isn't nearly as overpowered as being able to violate causality through precognition and foresight.

From an out-of-universe narrative and thematic angle, the very special circumstances of the event, and short memory spans of most EU authors, prevent the protagonists from abusing it.

Yes, even then. It is one of the most stupid and absurd feats in star wars.

Who... the... hell... cares? SW tech can do that becuase they're machines and can do that stuff through science. Dorsk 81 and co were channeling enough energy to throw 17 star destroyers clear out of the solar system at whats obviously above lightspeed. Thats ****ing stupid insane and above every single TK feat in the mythos, and just about everything else barring full planetary destruction and above.

I don't care about that. I'm just saying the feat is dumb and overpowered.

Palpatine is the most powerful force user so far.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If you don't get it, you don't get it. It happens. I know people who defend the "inherent quality" of the prequels. I can't change their minds or yours.

Since your argument is not axiomatic but rather a contention that requires actual explanation, you can drop the "I work in mysterious ways" religious doublespeak.

But go ahead thinking that lifting an X wing is less "overpowered" than a Kamehameha.

That wouldn't really be necessary either way, given that I actually agree, to an extent, with your overarching contention. I'm just puzzled by your stubbornness in clinging to silly examples.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, even then. It is one of the most stupid and absurd feats in star wars.

Who... the... hell... cares? SW tech can do that becuase they're machines and can do that stuff through science. Dorsk 81 and co were channeling enough energy to throw 17 star destroyers clear out of the solar system at whats obviously above lightspeed. Thats ****ing stupid insane and above every single TK feat in the mythos, and just about everything else barring full planetary destruction and above.

I don't care about that. I'm just saying the feat is dumb and overpowered. No, it's not overpowered. Let me cite the laws of physics to prove to you why it's not. F*cking duh!

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No, it's not overpowered. Let me cite the laws of physics to prove to you why it's not. F*cking duh!

Since the laws of motion canonically exist in the SW canon, both based on observation and official statements...

You seem to think that the Force operates independent of physical laws. Whilst this is partially true, like all non-broken magical systems in fiction, it's still limited by its own set of rules and limitations.

For example, despite Yoda's "size matters not" snippet (straight from the OT: I suppose this justifies overpowered TK feats now?), Force users clearly struggle with objects relative to their mass.

...or, more specifically, their weight, indicating that telekinesis involves the application of a force, hence why your quote describes the star destroyers' being "accelerated".

Lifting an X wing is less overpowered than a Kamehameha btw.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lifting an X wing is less overpowered than a Kamehameha btw.

If you compare the force and work needed to do both...not really, no.

A Kamehameha looks more overpowered, because it's flashier. But it's actually a less impressive feat.

Originally posted by Master Han
Since your argument is not axiomatic but rather a contention that requires actual explanation, you can drop the "I work in mysterious ways" religious doublespeak.

But go ahead thinking that lifting an X wing is less "overpowered" than a Kamehameha.

That wouldn't really be necessary either way, given that I actually agree, to an extent, with your overarching contention. I'm just puzzled by your stubbornness in clinging to silly examples. Imma give this one last shot.


You know how Jacen Solo was able to use the Force somehow to temporarily go back in time (flow walk) and witness Vader's storming of the Jedi Temple? That's overpowered.

You know how Sion was able to hold together his thousand-fracture body with pure hate? That was overpowered.

You know how Palpatine and Vitiate were able to leech the life out of billions of people to strengthen their own essence (or whatever)? That was overpowered.

You know how Mother Talzin was able to raise the zombies of dead Nightsisters to fight for her? Or summon a goblet from thin air? Or transmogrify Maul's legs and Oppress' body? That was overpowered.


Typically when we talk about the Force being "overpowered", we're not talking about this power:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6hGuBAVKWOI/Tcoq2_TeecI/AAAAAAAAAHs/uwbesbvPmuw/s1600/power.jpg


We're talking about this power:

http://mightymorphinpowerrangers.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/red-power-ranger2.jpg


So how you managed to read this:

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And a bunch of nigh-untrained neophytes focus-pushed an entire fleet of Star Destroyers perhaps upward of a lightyear away in what is probably one of the first examples of overpowered feats in the EU.

And decided this was the appropriate response:

Originally posted by Master Han
Um, firstly you're referring to the Jedi who drew power from the temples on Yavin IV to unleash energies so great, one of their members die as a side effect.

Secondly, IIRC it wasn't a lightyear, but "merely" out of the solar system.

Thirdly, given that any arbitrary impetus would carry an object in space "away" from the solar system so long as it reaches the star's escape velocity (or less, if we don't take the condition as permanent), the feat is really only impressive if:

a) the ship was close to the star or some significant gravitational field
b) the star destroyer's engines were operational, and the push was so great, it overpowered its multi-thousand G thrust capabilities, rather than disabling it ESB ion cannon style.

EDIT: Or this:

Originally posted by Master Han
If you compare the force and work needed to do both...not really, no.

A Kamehameha looks more overpowered, because it's flashier. But it's actually a less impressive feat. Is a matter of some head-scratching.

Aside from not understanding what "upward of" connotes, you also made the (very strange) assumption that physical "power" was the topic of discussion. It was only ever the stated capabilities of a fantastical magical element that was in contention. Not the work load of said.



Do you, in all your contentious, pedantic, know-it-all, need-to-prove-I'm-right, holier-than-thou wisdom... get it yet?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You know how Jacen Solo was able to use the Force somehow to temporarily go back in time (flow walk) and witness Vader's storming of the Jedi Temple? That's overpowered.


Is going backwards in time and explicitly not being able to alter it more overpowered than having visions of the future, which we see as early as ESB?



And Qbi Wan's literally cheating death isn't? This happens in the first film in the saga.

As much as I agree with SW purists on some levels, their whole "criticize everything new with silly double standards" gig just ignores the shit out of me.




Agreed.



Agreed, again. It's ridiculous that you're trying to establish a contention that I already support, but still use miserably stupid examples.



This is where the magic of the internet comes in, called "fact checking".

Looking back on your initial response to my rebuttal, you did argue the point on my terms, that is, just how powerful and energetic the relevant example was.

You denied applying the laws of motion not because you were arguing something different, but because you (falsely) didn't think they existed in the SW lore. Notice the arguing of facts, not the nature of our debate or whatever.

Somewhere down the line, you came to some sort of epiphany regarding your own mindset, and then decided to put on a smug "lol you don't understand me!" bullshit attitude.

------------

It's also interesting that you think your using "power" in an informal, rather than scientific sense, somehow justifies the fact that the "overpowered" feats you mention are largely not as applicable or useful as, say, precognition and Force visions, both of which appear in the original trilogy.

--------------

So I'm going to conclude that your whole "wah overpowered!" angle was based more on a superficial and shallow analysis of just how "flashy" the technique appears in your mind. That's the only way I can understand your considering a Force Kamehameha to be more impressive than lifting an X wing, when the latter is both literally more powerful and possessing of greater combative applications.

Literal time travel>>>uncertain visions.

Obi-Wan didn't cheat death. He lingered after death incorporeally. Sion literally lived inside a zombie body. One's more WTF than the other. One keeps in line with the more subdued, subtle, spiritual nature of the Force. The other keeps in line with WTF.


I argued the point on your terms because you bothered to bring it up. You wanted science in there, I obliged. But once it became clear that was the crux of your argument, and you had misconstrued "magical power" for "physical power" in a fictional universe with only limited relevance to our own physics, and had argued so pretentiously and pedantically, you raised my ire.


And damn right it's based on how flashy it is. The powers of the OT aren't flashy. The overbearing WMDs of the EU are. That X-Wing wasn't moved in an instant and with ease. But those Stormtroopers that Starkiller incinerated, were. Seriously, what more do you need before you get it?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Literal time travel>>>uncertain visions.


Jesus Christ, it's not literal grandfather paradox time travel. Troy Denning makes this clear in Invincible. Maybe you should try actually reading the literature before crying about it.



I don't see how reappearing as a primitive special-effects blue ghost that can apparently go anywhere at will is more "subdued" than living inside a zombie body. Obi Wan's power is more potent, more mystical and more impossible.

If anything, if you had to bet between one or the either being possible in RL...you'd pick reanimating a corpse over magic space ghosts.



I already admitted more than once that it wasn't, and that I was just nitpicking your point.

That doesn't mean my nitpick wasn't right, yet you stubbornly insisted on backing it.



Bullshit logic.

Magical power is quantified by its ability to influence stuff, the same way that physical and political power are ultimately defined by their respective spheres of influence.

Being able to accelerate an object with an X force is the central point of telekinesis, and ergo in evaluating TK feats, we judge it on its ability to affect the universe.

We don't judge it on how flashy it looks.



Again, bullshit. If the laws of motion did not apply universally to Star Wars in all but the most exclusive circumstances, it would literally bear no resemblance whatsoever to what we see in the Canon.

Physics don't only apply to esoteric science experiments and case studies, Lucien.



LOL, wut?

So if Yoda lifts a teacup with a blue aura of energy, it's overpowered, but if Yoda lifts an entire X wing without fancy special effects, it's just fine?

Maybe you should substitute "overpowered" with "aesthetically incompatible with the Force's original theme and style", and I might actually agree with you.



You do realize that slowly moving an X wing is more powerful than rapidly blasting stormtroopers, right?

Your entire argument is predicated on looking at feats from only the most possible superficial lenses.

Originally posted by Master Han
If you compare the force and work needed to do both...not really, no.

A Kamehameha looks more overpowered, because it's flashier. But it's actually a less impressive feat.

Nah, the kind of force needed to completely shatter a rock wall and throw rubble a good 30 feet through the air:

1ToztqqDcaY

Is more than is needed to lift an X Wing very slowly.

Its also way, waaaaaay greater in terms of combat applications, wtf are you smoking?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah, the kind of force needed to completely shatter a rock wall and throw rubble a good 30 feet through the air:

1ToztqqDcaY

Is more than is needed to lift an X Wing very slowly.



On average, is it now?

When you consider the fact that Satele Shan implicitly absorbs energy from Malgus's lightsaber, takes several seconds to charge her attack, and then still requires several charge-ups and hand motions to deliver the coup de grace, whereas a near-death Yoda expects Skywalker to do it with barely a year of training...

The X wing has to weight at least 15 or so tons just by its size, ignoring the possibility that durasteel is heavier than conventional metals. Then you have to take into account its reactor, either fusion or hypermatter depending on the source, which, at full power, can output multiple times the energy released in Hiroshima every second (examine its circumnavigation of Yavin Prime in a matter of minutes)...

I haven't done the math, but you can see that it's not exactly a case of one being "roflamo overpowered" and the other being subtle and indicative of classic OT brilliance.



Um, it's not just lifting X wings out of swamps to dazzle enemy troopers. You can apply the needed telekinetic force to, say, crush someone's windpipe, or multiple at once.

Originally posted by Master Han
On average, is it now?

When you consider the fact that Satele Shan implicitly absorbs energy from Malgus's lightsaber, takes several seconds to charge her attack, and then still requires several charge-ups and hand motions to deliver the coup de grace, whereas a near-death Yoda expects Skywalker to do it with barely a year of training...

The X wing has to weight at least 15 or so tons just by its size, ignoring the possibility that durasteel is heavier than conventional metals. Then you have to take into account its reactor, either fusion or hypermatter depending on the source, which, at full power, can output multiple times the energy released in Hiroshima every second (examine its circumnavigation of Yavin Prime in a matter of minutes)...

I haven't done the math, but you can see that it's not exactly a case of one being "roflamo overpowered" and the other being subtle and indicative of classic OT brilliance.

I know she does. I'm talking about the actual attack, not the circumstances around it. That she has to motion and power up is irrelevant given that while she's doing that she's also pushing Malgus back with the Force.

Yes, I know. Shattering a rock wall like that would still require greater physical force than lifting a 15 ton ship. And what the hell are you mentioning the reactor for? :?

Yeah it is.

Originally posted by Master Han
Um, it's not just lifting X wings out of swamps to dazzle enemy troopers. You can apply the needed telekinetic force to, say, crush someone's windpipe, or multiple at once.

Unless you have evidence or feats proving that you can focus your TK like that and use it in that manner, no you can't. Force users whould be capable of tearing their opponents in half with the forces they're throwing around, yet they don't do so.

Besides which obviously a feat of Satale actually pwning someone with a huge shockwave of energy is a lot more impressive in terms of combat applications than Yoda lifting a ship slowly out of the swamp. Yoda needed to really concentrate to do that and required a lot of time to perform that feat.

This is guy is like all the worst parts of Nai, Gideon, Rudy, DS, and myself all wrapped up in a neat little bow. Impossible to get through to, and convinced he's misinterpreted nothing. It's a tad surreal, actually...

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Impossible to get through to, and convinced he's misinterpreted nothing.

I'm seeing all of you but Gideon here. What's his worst part?

His stubbornness. Or at least that was a trait of his, maybe not anymore. But his was tempered by an ability to infer text-based tone and intention, so it was never a frustrating thing. Unlike this new guy, he never had the uncanny knack of misconstruing things to such SMHing degrees.


I miss that Gideon. I hope he'll come back to TV soon.

Gideon wasn't stubborn. He was just always right. There's a huge difference.

I know the feeling. Everyone's opinion is valid. Unless it's mine, in which case it's right.

I didn't analyze the work needed to push the star destroyers out of the star system because I thought you were exclusively referring to literal power when you said "overpowered". I did so because "overpowered" usually is defined by having an excess of capability to do something, and since telekinesis is quantified by how well you can accelerate objects...well, force seemed to be a nice starting point. And it has nothing to do with the attack's being magic or not; magic is still quantified by its ability to affect things, just like any mode of influence.

Furthermore, when we come to your example of Sion's hatred-regeneration, I'd point out that Obi Wan's blue space ghost ability from the OT is more overpowered in every conceivable criteria.

it has greater tactical applications
it can't be defeated with dun moch
it can't be neutralized via incapacitation...or high explosives
it can literally appear anywhere in the galaxy
it doesn't require undying hatred

----oh, and also, it's significantly cheesier to boot, with the dated visual effects and all. But that doesn't matter, because it's from the Original Trilogy, so you apply wholly separate standards to it.

Do you actually have any criteria or logical basis to label half of your examples as overpowered beyond "it just superficially appears so on face value"?

It all comes down to your wanting the Force to be more subtle from an aesthetics standpoint, which has nothing to do with anything being "overpowered".

Furthermore, if you think that the Force Kamehameha is too flashy for your own taste, it must have killed you when Palpatine revealed his Force lightning in RotJ - oh, wait, that's from the original trilogy, so it's just fine, right? Just like how blue space ghosts that can go anywhere aren't "overpowered", but space zombies that you can presumably kill easily with sufficient explosives are.

------------

Originally posted by Nephthys
I know she does. I'm talking about the actual attack, not the circumstances around it. That she has to motion and power up is irrelevant given that while she's doing that she's also pushing Malgus back with the Force.


But we're discussing whether or not the attack is overpowered, and even if we assume for a moment that the blast is more energetic, that she has to charge it for several seconds and absorb a lightsaber's energy really dampens its combative applications, doesn't it?

I concede that I had not watched the entire video, and did not notice the massive collateral damage after Shan completes her hand-motions, but my primary contention still stands.




The reactor would add a significant amount of mass to the ship, given that it uses a ridiculous amount of energy.



Um, Vader and Dooku have both ripped bolted machinery, applying massive amounts of force to areas smaller than the human figure.

In combat, this is certainly more useful, especially if you can do it through a camera, than a Kamehameha that really is redundant when you have explosives.



Yoda was near death. In RotS, he would have been able to lift it casually. But again, 15 tons (conservatively) applied to an enemy commander's neck through a hologram conference is vastly more potentially "overpowered" than a slow charging Kamehameha.

Wow, you must be no fun at parties. An egotistical ass who takes everything literally, has limited flexibility when it comes to language, has no appreciation of the use of artistic license, doesn't care about overuse of plot devices, and who apparently only watched Dragonball and never got in to Z. What an unlikeable, combative, narrow-minded pedant you are.


So that said; My Give up. My Give up.