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I read the entire dragonball manga and I noticed that dbz is a very powerful verse... more powerful than people think they are... Im gonna show proof of their strength (obviously more than 40 tons) speed, durability, and energy (high tier-solar system+ buster). I'll list some but not all of their best feats. Will use manga only.

Strength

Kid Goku lift and throw 1 ton car at power level 10.

Kid Goku lifts 2 ton rock, throws it in the air, and shatters it with one punch.

Kid Goku pushes 10 ton rock with ease. rock's diameter is greater than the length of master roshi's body who is at least 5 ft tall.

Kid Goku and Krillin push 600 ton rock. Rock dimensions 20 ft high 20 ft long 20 ft wide. multiply all dimensions x 150 lb (which is average weight of rock per cubic foot) 20x20x20x150= 600 tons.

Tao pai pai with pl less than 200 hurls half ton pillar at least at the speed of sound over 2300 km ( must be the equivalent of lifting at least 500 tons overhead).

Goku throws giant piccolo. Giant piccolo obviously weighs more than 40 tons.

Goku kicks frieza through 2 islands.

Speed

Master roshi and krillin moving so fast during battle that no one can see them.

Roshi easily dodges bullets

Saiyan Saga Goku crosses snake way in 2 days and snake way's road is 1,000,000 km. mach 17 at least.

Base Goku escapes frieza's energy ball before it explodes.

Durability

Kid Goku is resists against lightning and lightning is hotter than the surface of the sun.

Goku tanks piccolo island busting blast (though he amped his body up with ki).

Frieza survives planet namek's explosion. Note: he tanks a planet's explosion not a planet busting attack. Planet busting attack > planet exploding on its own.

Energy

Master Roshi destroys moon at power level 139.

Piccolo destroys moon with casual ki blast at power level 300+.

Saiyan Saga vegeta threatens to destroy earth. This only proven via power scaling. moon is 1/80 the mass of the earth, and roshi destroys moon. vegeta at pl 18000 is almost 130 times more powerful than roshi.

Frieza saga vegeta after last powerup almost destroyed namek but frieza kicks the attack into space.

Base form frieza destroys planet vegeta a planet 10 times bigger than earth.

70 percent frieza tries to destroy namek. Note: he would have destroyed the planet completely but he stated held back too much energy (so he does not have to disrupt the core to destroy a planet) Think im wrong... look at how much energy frieza used to destroy the planet an energy blast the size of a beach ball if he would have made it twice as big planet namek would have exploded on impact.

Semi-perfect cell destroy king kai planet. king kai planet is 10 times more dense than earth. 10 times more dense equals 10 times the mass.

King Cold and Frieza state how easy it would be for them to destroy an earth sized planet.

Originally posted by kbclassof09
I read the entire dragonball manga and I noticed that dbz is a very powerful verse... more powerful than people think they are... Im gonna show proof of their strength (obviously more than 40 tons) speed, durability, and energy (high tier-solar system+ buster). I'll list some but not all of their best feats. Will use manga only.

Strength

Kid Goku lift and throw 1 ton car at power level 10.

Kid Goku lifts 2 ton rock, throws it in the air, and shatters it with one punch.

Kid Goku pushes 10 ton rock with ease. rock's diameter is greater than the length of master roshi's body who is at least 5 ft tall.

Kid Goku and Krillin push 600 ton rock. Rock dimensions 20 ft high 20 ft long 20 ft wide. multiply all dimensions x 150 lb (which is average weight of rock per cubic foot) 20x20x20x150= 600 tons.

Tao pai pai with pl less than 200 hurls half ton pillar at least at the speed of sound over 2300 km ( must be the equivalent of lifting at least 500 tons overhead).

Goku throws giant piccolo. Giant piccolo obviously weighs more than 40 tons.

Goku kicks frieza through 2 islands.

Speed

Master roshi and krillin moving so fast during battle that no one can see them.

Roshi easily dodges bullets

Saiyan Saga Goku crosses snake way in 2 days and snake way's road is 1,000,000 km. mach 17 at least.

Base Goku escapes frieza's energy ball before it explodes.

Durability

Kid Goku is resists against lightning and lightning is hotter than the surface of the sun.

Goku tanks piccolo island busting blast (though he amped his body up with ki).

Frieza survives planet namek's explosion. Note: he tanks a planet's explosion not a planet busting attack. Planet busting attack > planet exploding on its own.

Energy

Master Roshi destroys moon at power level 139.

Piccolo destroys moon with casual ki blast at power level 300+.

Saiyan Saga vegeta threatens to destroy earth. This only proven via power scaling. moon is 1/80 the mass of the earth, and roshi destroys moon. vegeta at pl 18000 is almost 130 times more powerful than roshi.

Frieza saga vegeta after last powerup almost destroyed namek but frieza kicks the attack into space.

Base form frieza destroys planet vegeta a planet 10 times bigger than earth.

70 percent frieza tries to destroy namek. Note: he would have destroyed the planet completely but he stated held back too much energy (so he does not have to disrupt the core to destroy a planet) Think im wrong... look at how much energy frieza used to destroy the planet an energy blast the size of a beach ball if he would have made it twice as big planet namek would have exploded on impact.

Semi-perfect cell destroy king kai planet. king kai planet is 10 times more dense than earth. 10 times more dense equals 10 times the mass.

King Cold and Frieza state how easy it would be for them to destroy an earth sized planet. Only an idiot actually takes the 40 ton feat seriously, was an inconsistency, the feats you named are all well-known and very much accepted to be within Goku's capabilities... Although some of your information is kind of sketchy.

First I would like to point out that PL does not really mean anything beyond who can beat who like your post seems to imply it does, someone with a PL of 1,000 for instance cannot necessarily lift twice as much or is twice as fast as someone with a PL of 500.

"Kid Goku and Krillin push 600 ton rock. Rock dimensions 20 ft high 20 ft long 20 ft wide. multiply all dimensions x 150 lb (which is average weight of rock per cubic foot) 20x20x20x150= 600 tons."

The problem with this is that you assume that all rocks weigh the same amount, do you know what kind of rock this was? Also, scans would be nice, cannot recall the rock.

"Kid Goku is resists against lightning and lightning is hotter than the surface of the sun."

This is not really a big deal... Most people who are struck by lightning live due to damping, our bodies are naturally good conductors, and Saiyan bodies are pretty human in most regards. and the same is likely true. Also, lightning strikes last for much less than a second... So yeah. It is not the same as actually being even near the sun.

"Frieza survives planet namek's explosion. Note: he tanks a planet's explosion not a planet busting attack. Planet busting attack > planet exploding on its own."

One must note that the only reason Freeza survived was because of his unique biology, he was torn to pieces but survived because he can essentially survive any wound short of complete annihilation.

"Piccolo destroys moon with casual ki blast at power level 300+."

It was not a casual blast, it was the Masenko.

"Saiyan Saga vegeta threatens to destroy earth. This only proven via power scaling. moon is 1/80 the mass of the earth, and roshi destroys moon. vegeta at pl 18000 is almost 130 times more powerful than roshi."

Once again, PL does not correlate with destruction. Also, the numbers have been posted, it would require more than 1,800 times the energy required to destroy the moon to destroy Earth if I recall correctly.

"Base form frieza destroys planet vegeta a planet 10 times bigger than earth."

Was it base form in the manga, cannot recall?

"70 percent frieza tries to destroy namek. Note: he would have destroyed the planet completely but he stated held back too much energy (so he does not have to disrupt the core to destroy a planet) Think im wrong... look at how much energy frieza used to destroy the planet an energy blast the size of a beach ball if he would have made it twice as big planet namek would have exploded on impact."

The only real problem I see with this is that it assumes blast size always correlates with power, while this was the case with Kid Buu, who did not exercise any control over his power and was just a raging chaotic monster, Freeza was able to exercise a great deal of control over his powers.

"Semi-perfect cell destroy king kai planet. king kai planet is 10 times more dense than earth. 10 times more dense equals 10 times the mass."

Denser? It has ten times the gravity, when was it stated to be ten times as dense? And the reason for its gravity certainly was not its mass, the planet is smaller than some homes.

Other than that, post was not bad.

Originally posted by NemeBro
"Base form frieza destroys planet vegeta a planet 10 times bigger than earth."

Was it base form in the manga, cannot recall?
It's never shown in the manga on panel. However, we know that people saw him do it, but he says nobody has seen him in his higher forms. So it would probably have been base, especially since that was the only one introduced when that was mentioned.

Sorry I can't post links to the scans because ima newcomer to the forum

And nemebro... that rock was about 600 tons even if we assume its a sandstone boulder and sandstone is lighter than limestone and granite.

Piccolo's blast was not a masenko it was a normal energy blast.

And since you wanna use physics ....ur right it does take about 2000 times more energy to destroy the moon

Well what about super buu and gotenks creating wormholes by screaming. did you know dat it takes the combined energy of 10 billion stars in one year to create a wormhole. Even a black hole cant rip through space and time it only bends it which means super buu and ssj3 gotenks scream is more powerful than a black hole.

It takes our sun a week to produce enough energy to destroy an earth
sized planet. if we assume all 10 billion stars are equal to our sun then superbuu and ssj3 gotenks are at multi-star busting levels.

10000000000x52 weeks in a year=520000000000 earth sized planets.
super buu and ssj3 gotenks can produce enough power to destroy 520 billion earths in a scream and that's not at full power!

and about power levels im trying to state that these characters are capable of achieving far greater feats than what they did earlier in the manga. For example... saiyan saga vegeta is 18000 and he could possibly destroy earth. then he have ssj namek goku whose pl is 150,000,000. 150000000/18000=8333.3 which means ssj goku can destroy earth 8333.3 times over and they grow even more powerful after frieza saga.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Only an idiot actually takes the 40 ton feat seriously, was an inconsistency, the feats you named are all well-known and very much accepted to be within Goku's capabilities... Although some of your information is kind of sketchy.

First I would like to point out that PL does not really mean anything beyond who can beat who like your post seems to imply it does, someone with a PL of 1,000 for instance cannot necessarily lift twice as much or is twice as fast as someone with a PL of 500.

"Kid Goku and Krillin push 600 ton rock. Rock dimensions 20 ft high 20 ft long 20 ft wide. multiply all dimensions x 150 lb (which is average weight of rock per cubic foot) 20x20x20x150= 600 tons."

The problem with this is that you assume that all rocks weigh the same amount, do you know what kind of rock this was? Also, scans would be nice, cannot recall the rock.

"Kid Goku is resists against lightning and lightning is hotter than the surface of the sun."

This is not really a big deal... Most people who are struck by lightning live due to damping, our bodies are naturally good conductors, and Saiyan bodies are pretty human in most regards. and the same is likely true. Also, lightning strikes last for much less than a second... So yeah. It is not the same as actually being even near the sun.

"Frieza survives planet namek's explosion. Note: he tanks a planet's explosion not a planet busting attack. Planet busting attack > planet exploding on its own."

One must note that the only reason Freeza survived was because of his unique biology, he was torn to pieces but survived because he can essentially survive any wound short of complete annihilation.

"Piccolo destroys moon with casual ki blast at power level 300+."

It was not a casual blast, it was the Masenko.

"Saiyan Saga vegeta threatens to destroy earth. This only proven via power scaling. moon is 1/80 the mass of the earth, and roshi destroys moon. vegeta at pl 18000 is almost 130 times more powerful than roshi."

Once again, PL does not correlate with destruction. Also, the numbers have been posted, it would require more than 1,800 times the energy required to destroy the moon to destroy Earth if I recall correctly.

"Base form frieza destroys planet vegeta a planet 10 times bigger than earth."

Was it base form in the manga, cannot recall?

"70 percent frieza tries to destroy namek. Note: he would have destroyed the planet completely but he stated held back too much energy (so he does not have to disrupt the core to destroy a planet) Think im wrong... look at how much energy frieza used to destroy the planet an energy blast the size of a beach ball if he would have made it twice as big planet namek would have exploded on impact."

The only real problem I see with this is that it assumes blast size always correlates with power, while this was the case with Kid Buu, who did not exercise any control over his power and was just a raging chaotic monster, Freeza was able to exercise a great deal of control over his powers.

"Semi-perfect cell destroy king kai planet. king kai planet is 10 times more dense than earth. 10 times more dense equals 10 times the mass."

Denser? It has ten times the gravity, when was it stated to be ten times as dense? And the reason for its gravity certainly was not its mass, the planet is smaller than some homes.

Other than that, post was not bad.

LOL, I didnt even read the rest of your post after you said someone with a power level of 500 can beat a character with the powrelevel of 1000.

Everything about DBZ proves that wrong and again, more bias on your part. Someone with a power level of 1000 should be able to TANK anything a person with a 500 power can throw out unless they are allowed time to charge up more KI.

Originally posted by kbclassof09
I read the entire dragonball manga and I noticed that dbz is a very powerful verse... more powerful than people think they are... Im gonna show proof of their strength (obviously more than 40 tons) speed, durability, and energy (high tier-solar system+ buster). I'll list some but not all of their best feats. Will use manga only.

Strength

Kid Goku lift and throw 1 ton car at power level 10.

Kid Goku lifts 2 ton rock, throws it in the air, and shatters it with one punch.

Kid Goku pushes 10 ton rock with ease. rock's diameter is greater than the length of master roshi's body who is at least 5 ft tall.

Kid Goku and Krillin push 600 ton rock. Rock dimensions 20 ft high 20 ft long 20 ft wide. multiply all dimensions x 150 lb (which is average weight of rock per cubic foot) 20x20x20x150= 600 tons.

Tao pai pai with pl less than 200 hurls half ton pillar at least at the speed of sound over 2300 km ( must be the equivalent of lifting at least 500 tons overhead).

Goku throws giant piccolo. Giant piccolo obviously weighs more than 40 tons.

Goku kicks frieza through 2 islands.

Speed

Master roshi and krillin moving so fast during battle that no one can see them.

Roshi easily dodges bullets

Saiyan Saga Goku crosses snake way in 2 days and snake way's road is 1,000,000 km. mach 17 at least.

Base Goku escapes frieza's energy ball before it explodes.

Durability

Kid Goku is resists against lightning and lightning is hotter than the surface of the sun.

Goku tanks piccolo island busting blast (though he amped his body up with ki).

Frieza survives planet namek's explosion. Note: he tanks a planet's explosion not a planet busting attack. Planet busting attack > planet exploding on its own.

Energy

Master Roshi destroys moon at power level 139.

Piccolo destroys moon with casual ki blast at power level 300+.

Saiyan Saga vegeta threatens to destroy earth. This only proven via power scaling. moon is 1/80 the mass of the earth, and roshi destroys moon. vegeta at pl 18000 is almost 130 times more powerful than roshi.

Frieza saga vegeta after last powerup almost destroyed namek but frieza kicks the attack into space.

Base form frieza destroys planet vegeta a planet 10 times bigger than earth.

70 percent frieza tries to destroy namek. Note: he would have destroyed the planet completely but he stated held back too much energy (so he does not have to disrupt the core to destroy a planet) Think im wrong... look at how much energy frieza used to destroy the planet an energy blast the size of a beach ball if he would have made it twice as big planet namek would have exploded on impact.

Semi-perfect cell destroy king kai planet. king kai planet is 10 times more dense than earth. 10 times more dense equals 10 times the mass.

King Cold and Frieza state how easy it would be for them to destroy an earth sized planet.

Good post

Originally posted by carver9
LOL, I didnt even read the rest of your post after you said someone with a power level of 500 can beat a character with the powrelevel of 1000.

Everything about DBZ proves that wrong and again, more bias on your part. Someone with a power level of 1000 should be able to TANK anything a person with a 500 power can throw out unless they are allowed time to charge up more KI. I didn't say that you stupid moron.

LOL, I just read the rest of your post nemo bro and everything you said just didnt make any sense at all and thats all you tried to do was discredit (just like Mike) dragonball feats. Rocks weighing different weight, LOL, powerlevel, LOL, etc.....

If you knew anything about DBZ you would know that the higher the powerlevel the more destructive you are.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I didn't say that you stupid moron.

First I would like to point out that PL does not really mean anything beyond who can beat who like your post seems to imply it does, someone with a PL of 1,000 for instance cannot necessarily lift twice as much or is twice as fast as someone with a PL of 500.


That is what you said, now answer this for me.

Picollo was STOMPING first transformation frieza until frieza powered up to his second big head form. Why was frieza much more faster than picollo after his transformation, why was frieza more power after this transformation, why was frieza much more stronger after this transformation?



Its pretty obvious.

Originally posted by carver9
LOL, I didnt even read the rest of your post after you said someone with a power level of 500 can beat a character with the powrelevel of 1000.

Everything about DBZ proves that wrong and again, more bias on your part. Someone with a power level of 1000 should be able to TANK anything a person with a 500 power can throw out unless they are allowed time to charge up more KI.
That wasn't remotely what he said.

Originally posted by King Kandy
That wasn't remotely what he said.

No it wasnt. He said that a person with a powerlevel of 500 can be just as fast, durable, and strong as someone with a powerlevel of a 1000.

Originally posted by carver9
LOL, I just read the rest of your post nemo bro and everything you said just didnt make any sense at all and thats all you tried to do was discredit (just like Mike) dragonball feats. Rocks weighing different weight, LOL, powerlevel, LOL, etc.....

If you knew anything about DBZ you would know that the higher the powerlevel the more destructive you are. Carver.

Not every rock weighs the same amount, if you were not a moron, you would probably know that.

PL was dropped after the Freeza saga for a reason, because it meant who could beat who, that is the only reliable way to look at it.

More destructive? Sure. Does it correlate exactly with destruction? No, if you possessed more than a fourth grader's level of reading you would have picked up that that was my point.

Go back to grade-school fool.

Originally posted by carver9
No it wasnt. He said that a person with a powerlevel of 500 can be just as fast, durable, and strong as someone with a powerlevel of a 1000. No I didn't.

Grade-school. Finish it.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Carver.

Not every rock weighs the same amount, if you were not a moron, you would probably know that.

PL was dropped after the Freeza saga for a reason, because it meant who could beat who, that is the only reliable way to look at it.

More destructive? Sure. Does it correlate exactly with destruction? No, if you possessed more than a fourth grader's level of reading you would have picked up that that was my point.

Go back to grade-school fool.

LOL, if that isnt what you meant with what I said then I apologize for attacking you and I could have took your post the wrong way but again, the rock feat showed that it was a hard a** rock so you cant take anything away from that feat.

Originally posted by NemeBro
No I didn't.

Grade-school. Finish it.

Again, if I took your post the wrong way then my bad, a mistake on my part.

DBZ is a very powerful universe, and does beat a lot of powerful series but it's not the strongest universe ever like most fanboys said it is. Good post though.

Originally posted by carver9
LOL, if that isnt what you meant with what I said then I apologize for attacking you and I could have took your post the wrong way but again, the rock feat showed that it was a hard a** rock so you cant take anything away from that feat. I don't accept apologies from lower life-forms that dare to defy me.

I acknowledged I could not recall the feat, so asked for a scan, if I am so wrong, shut up and provide it.

Originally posted by Hellspawn28
DBZ is a very powerful universe, and does beat a lot of powerful series but it's not the strongest universe ever like most fanboys said it is. Good post though.

I agree.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I don't accept apologies from lower life-forms that dare to defy me.

I acknowledged I could not recall the feat, so asked for a scan, if I am so wrong, shut up and provide it.

Well this lower life is apologizing to you if he read your post the wrong way now back on topic, good post KB and I really didnt know Goku was that powerful as a child.

im not trying to say dbz is the most powerful verse. Im just trying to say they are more powerful than what most people think they are. But with the info I provided they are class 100 in strength and been class 100 during db ( they can also amp up their strength with ki), FTL (proven via power scaling), and high-tier characters such as mystic gohan, ssj3 goku/gotenks, and super buu are multi-star busters.

Originally posted by kbclassof09
actually nemebro power levels ceased to exist after the frieza saga because the numbers were becoming too large too calculate. And once again the higher the power level the more powerful a person is. Its like u trying to say raditz with pl 1500 is equal to or more than powerful than nappa pl 4000.

I guess you took it the same way I took what he said huh?


Raditz wouldnt even be able to put a scratch on Nappa and raditz was powerful as hell.

Originally posted by kbclassof09
FTL (proven via power scaling) No, they are not.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Carver.

Go back to grade-school fool.


laughcry

Obviously they are FTL. Look if saiyan saga goku with pl 8000 can fly at mach 17 imagine how fast he would be at pl 3,000,000 (post zenkai) and 150,000,000 as a ssj. You do the math.

Originally posted by kbclassof09
Obviously they are FTL. Look if saiyan saga goku with pl 8000 can fly at mach 17 imagine how fast he would be at pl 3,000,000 (post zenkai) and 150,000,000 as a ssj. You do the math. They do not correlate.

Originally posted by kbclassof09
Obviously they are FTL. Look if saiyan saga goku with pl 8000 can fly at mach 17 imagine how fast he would be at pl 3,000,000 (post zenkai) and 150,000,000 as a ssj. You do the math.

They dont want to do the match because they dont want DBZ characters being at ridiculous levels. Its pretty obvious they were above the speed of light even during the Frieza saga. Hell, kid goku was at LEAST 20 times the speed of sound.

Light speed aint sh** to Goku during his fight with frieza and after.

Originally posted by NemeBro
They do not correlate.

They do not correlate. WTF.

Yet you have time and time again failed to actually prove anything and have outright admitted you only believe they are lightspeed because you think they look like they are.

So what you are trying to say is no matter how powerful a person becomes they will stay at the same level they were at before. That's freakin stupid. If saiyan saga goku can move a few times more than the speed of sound and grow nearly 20,000 times powerful than before u think he would be at the same level of speed and power?

Originally posted by kbclassof09
Obviously they are FTL. Look if saiyan saga goku with pl 8000 can fly at mach 17 imagine how fast he would be at pl 3,000,000 (post zenkai) and 150,000,000 as a ssj. You do the math.
Power Level = Speed? Proof plz. All power level shows is strength of ki.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Yet you have time and time again failed to actually prove anything and have outright admitted you only believe they are lightspeed because you think they look like they are.

Ok, answer this question. If Goku as a child showed evidence of being at least 20 times the speed of sound and he had a power level in the 100's, how fast do you think a Goku that had the power level in the millions is?

Do you think the 20 times speed of sound goku can still blitz the Goku with the powerlevel in the millions?

Originally posted by carver9
They dont want to do the match because they dont want DBZ characters being at ridiculous levels. Its pretty obvious they were above the speed of light even during the Frieza saga. Hell, kid goku was at LEAST 20 times the speed of sound.

Light speed aint sh** to Goku during his fight with frieza and after. Saiyan Saga's fastest speed is said to be Mach 17, and you're saying he's faster as a Kid?

Originally posted by kbclassof09
So what you are trying to say is no matter how powerful a person becomes they will stay at the same level they were at before. Point out where I said that.

Stop strawmanning me.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Power Level = Speed? Proof plz. All power level shows is strength of ki.

LOL, WTF.

Why wasnt Jeice and Burta able to hit Goku?

Why was Nappa unable to hit Goku?

Why was piccolo unable to hit frieza after his second transformation?

Why was piccolo unable to hit nappa?

Why did it take both piccolo and Goku to even be a threat and fail to land a lick on Raditz besides sneak attacks.

I can go all day with this.

Originally posted by carver9
Ok, answer this question. If Goku as a child showed evidence of being at least 20 times the speed of sound and he had a power level in the 100's, how fast do you think a Goku that had the power level in the millions is?

Do you think the 20 times speed of sound goku can still blitz the Goku with the powerlevel in the millions?

PLs mean nothing beyond who could beat who in terms of practicality, I have said this time and time again.

I think Goku would obiously be faster with a higher PL, care to prove by how much?

Originally posted by Kento
Saiyan Saga's fastest speed is said to be Mach 17, and you're saying he's faster as a Kid?

Who said that Saiyan Sagas fastest speed is Mach 17?

Mach 17 was probably the minimum speed saiyan saga goku went when he was crossing snake way. He could have went even faster than mach 17 idk but my point is the more powerful you become the more impressive your feats would be.

And that's assuming Gokou didn't cut corners.... Which he did.

Originally posted by NemeBro
PLs mean nothing beyond who could beat who in terms of practicality, I have said this time and time again.

I think Goku would obiously be faster with a higher PL, care to prove by how much?

It must be at a HUGE rate since it took both Burta and Jeice to fight Goku at super speed and they were unable to touch him TOGETHER. Burta and Jeice power level was 60k and 45k, goku was at 180k so his speed was at least twice as fast as theirs put together.

Originally posted by Kento
And that's assuming Gokou didn't cut corners.... Which he did.

I seen no corner cutting and how fast did it take Goku to cross snake way after his training with King KI?

Originally posted by carver9
I seen no corner cutting and how fast did it take Goku to cross snake way after his training with King KI? Snake ways length is more because of how much it curves. He flew straight when it would curve, and at times jumped from one bend to the next. He cut corners. And it took him a day to get back, but it's impossible to know how much distance he took off at all.

Originally posted by Kento
Snake ways length is more because of how much it curves. He flew straight when it would curve, and at times jumped from one bend to the next. He cut corners. And it took him a day to get back, but it's impossible to know how much distance he took off at all.

I dont know who brought that up anyway, I dont care about the feat because DBZ flying suck a** but their combat speed is something totally different.

Originally posted by carver9
It must be at a HUGE rate since it took both Burta and Jeice to fight Goku at super speed and they were unable to touch him TOGETHER. Burta and Jeice power level was 60k and 45k, goku was at 180k so his speed was at least twice as fast as theirs put together.

And the thing about this was....Goku wasnt even using the 180k power that he had and he was still running circles around Burta and Jeice.

Originally posted by carver9
LOL, WTF.

Why wasnt Jeice and Burta able to hit Goku?

Why was Nappa unable to hit Goku?

Why was piccolo unable to hit frieza after his second transformation?

Why was piccolo unable to hit nappa?

Why did it take both piccolo and Goku to even be a threat and fail to land a lick on Raditz besides sneak attacks.

I can go all day with this.
Because they were all faster than their opponents by an indefinite amount.

Originally posted by carver9
LOL, WTF.

Why wasnt Jeice and Burta able to hit Goku?

Why was Nappa unable to hit Goku?

Why was piccolo unable to hit frieza after his second transformation?

Why was piccolo unable to hit nappa?

Why did it take both piccolo and Goku to even be a threat and fail to land a lick on Raditz besides sneak attacks.

I can go all day with this.

Burter was the fastest member of the Ginyu Force IIRC and he was not the strongest.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Burter was the fastest member of the Ginyu Force IIRC and he was not the strongest.

Burter could have been the strongest next to captain ginyu but that doesn't chance the fact that goku (who has a higher power level) was faster than him.

Originally posted by kbclassof09
Burter could have been the strongest next to captain ginyu but that doesn't chance the fact that goku (who has a higher power level) was faster than him.

Was Burter not faster than Ginyu? Was Trunks when he got all buffed up not stronger than unbuffed Trunks but way slower?

Originally posted by kbclassof09
Burter could have been the strongest next to captain ginyu but that doesn't chance the fact that goku (who has a higher power level) was faster than him.
But Ginyu had a higher power level than Burter but Burter was faster. That goes against that theory.

Burter wasn't faster than Ginyu, despite Burter claiming to be the fastest in the universe. Ginyu was able to keep up with Gokou. But it's still not like somebody double the power level is twice the speed.

Only thing I want to comment on was the lightning attack for Kid Goku. If it's Roshi's Lightning Surprise, like I think it is that you're talking about, wasn't it a sustained attack, making it more impressive than a standard lightning strike?

Most stupid useless thread I have ever seen.

And I have been to narutofan...

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Burter was the fastest member of the Ginyu Force IIRC and he was not the strongest.

Burta wasnt the fastest member, he CLAIMED himself to be but Ginyu was and you want to know why Ginyu was, it was because 1). he kept up with Goku and 2). his powerlevel was much higher.

Originally posted by Kento
Burter wasn't faster than Ginyu, despite Burter claiming to be the fastest in the universe. Ginyu was able to keep up with Gokou. But it's still not like somebody double the power level is twice the speed.

Goku was double the powerlevel of Nappa and Nappa was unable to touch him. Goku was at least twice as fast as Nappa.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Burter was the fastest member of the Ginyu Force IIRC and he was not the strongest.

He wasnt the fastest member and from the way that it looked, it seemed as if Jeice was his equal when it came to speed. If he was faster than everyone (besides Ginyu) it wasnt by a huge Gap.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Because they were all faster than their opponents by an indefinite amount.

LOL, WTF. Powerlevels is the reason why they were faster than their opponents.

I know for a FACT that if Goku didnt go through his training with King Ki he wouldnt have been able to even see Nappa during combat or touch him.

Goku trained for a reason and that reason was to become stronger, more powerful, and much more faster.

Anybody that knows ANYTHING about DBZ should know that the more powerful you are the more durable, stronger, and faster you are.

Its common sense (Sh**, I cant believe I'm explaining this).

Ginyu didnt keep up with goku ginyu got punked

Originally posted by Gecko4lif
Ginyu didnt keep up with goku ginyu got punked

HUH . Ginyu didnt keep up with Goku?

Ginyu was slapping Goku around until Goku powered up to his max.

Gecko, I'm not going to post against your replies because I can tell half of the time you dont know what in the h*** you are talking about.

Holla.

Is that a joke?

ROFL

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Was Burter not faster than Ginyu? Was Trunks when he got all buffed up not stronger than unbuffed Trunks but way slower?





PWNED!
















No, 10 times the gravity does not mean 10 times the density. That's really lame to think that. It hurts my head.

It's the mass that creates the gravity. So, yeah, it's more massive, but 10 times the gravity doesn't mean 10 time the density of Earth. It would be far denser than the Earth because it is a much smaller, so it's density would be HUGE!

So, the forumla for the force of gravity is

f = G(mass1*mass2)/d^2

f = force

G = Gravitational Constant which is 6.67x10^-11 N m^2/kg^2

mass1 = the person
mass2 = The planet
d = the distance between the two masses. (measured from their centers.)



We know F, mass1, and d. (Mass1 and d, we know roughly, but not exact. We will go with about 30 meters for the diameter or about 15 meters for the radius for King Kai's planet..)



Like I said, we know force, which is 10 times that of Earth's gravity. Earth's gravity exerts a force of 9.806 meters a second a second. So, simply, 10*9.8 = 98.06 meters a second a second.

So, King Kai's planet must exert 98.06 meters a second a second force on a body that is standing on the suruface...a surface that is 15 meters from the very center of his planet.


So, Goku's mass is about 71 Kgs. On King Kai's planet, he would feel 10 times heavier than 156lbs (damn mass vs. weight problem, here)

So, now we have all the variables except for mass2.

Let's plug them in and slove for mass2


98.06 m/s^2 = ((6.67x10^-11 N m^2/kg^2) * (71 * mass2))/15^2

simplify

98.06 kg/m/s^2 = ((6.67x10^-11 N m^2/kg^2) * (71 * mass2))/225


Simplify

22063.5 kg/m/s^2 = ((6.67x10^-11 N m^2/kg^2) * (71 * mass2))

Simplify

22063.5 kg/m/s^2 = (71 * mass2))

22063.5 kg/m/s^2 /((6.67x10^-11 N m^2/kg^2) = 71 * mass 2

Simplify

22063.5 kg/m/s^2 /(((6.67x10^-11 N m^2/kg^2)*71) = mass 2



And this is where I stop...cause I forgot what I'm supposed to do.

I'll just try the numbers to see if they come up with something feasable...

So, since we know the answer should ONLY be in kg, everything should cancel out.

Well, it really doesn't...but maybe. Dunno.


I came up with 4658973330236.29 Kgs.

That means that the Earth would be 128217089401047 times more massive than King Kai's planet. (I figured that number out by dividing the mass of the Earth by the mass2 number (mass2 = the mass of King Kai's planet))


Again, I don't remember what I was supposed to do with G, but, if I remember properly, if I solve that way, it's supposed to cancel out all of the measures and leave us with just Kgs. I don't think, from the above, that that's what it comes to. Anyway, I'm close. I know I'd have to expand out my newtons to eliminate all of my factors, cept I'd still be left with second on the bottom, which I think is okay. Bla bla bla. I forgot. I'll look at one of my old physics books and double check my work.

Originally posted by carver9
Goku was double the powerlevel of Nappa and Nappa was unable to touch him. Goku was at least twice as fast as Nappa. Because he was moving faster than Nappa he has to be twice as fast? If he was twice as fast, he wouldn't of had to double his own speed to catch Nappa.

Also, Frieza was like, twenty times Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillian. And even when he doubled his power level going to second form, his speed didn't amp all that much.

It's only when he got up to fourth form that everyone was practically standing still.

Originally posted by carver9
Anybody that knows ANYTHING about DBZ should know that the more powerful you are the more durable, stronger, and faster you are.
Cool I guess USSJ Trunks was faster than Cell then (since Cell admitted he was more powerful).

Using USSJ Trunks, not really the best argument to prove anything, when he's the only one, and uses a transformation that specifically lowers speed.

King Kandy, can you check my work on the mass of King Kai's planet?

I haven't taken physics in forever, and trying to do solve algebra with typing is a complete mess every time. Maybe i'll look over it later, but your guess is probably as good as mine--we know for a fact that your answer is wrong, but I can't identify at first glance where the part that was wrong is.

Originally posted by Kento
Using USSJ Trunks, not really the best argument to prove anything, when he's the only one, and uses a transformation that specifically lowers speed.
No, it's a perfectly fine argument. It shows that Ki =/= speed, which is my point. They CAN correlate, but by no means is it direct.

Perhaps, but is it said Trunks has more ki or is he just stronger physically? He buffs himself up to give himself strength, and it's possible he would've been slower than Cell anyway.

It wasn't just physical strength, his energy was stronger as well.

Yea, you're right..Just went back to re-read that part. One would think Piccolo would've noticed being he is part Kami, and was smarter than most to begin with when it comes to fighting.

Originally posted by Kento
Yea, you're right..Just went back to re-read that part. One would think Piccolo would've noticed being he is part Kami, and was smarter than most to begin with when it comes to fighting.

Maybe it was one of those things where only a person who somewhat knew how the Super Saiyan form worked, and was actually experiencing the phenomenon, could notice it.

i still think there flying speed could be FTL since saiyan saga goku is at least speed of sound in flying speed

Originally posted by King Kandy
Cool I guess USSJ Trunks was faster than Cell then (since Cell admitted he was more powerful).

Not a good example since Cell admitted that going buff would take away from their speed.



Cell even shows this when he buffs up. Not a good example at all since it was explain WHY Trunks wasnt as fast as cell.

Originally posted by Kento
Because he was moving faster than Nappa he has to be twice as fast? If he was twice as fast, he wouldn't of had to double his own speed to catch Nappa.

Are you referring to flying, the place where DBZ sucks ass. It was pretty obvious that Goku was twice as fast since Nappa was unable to touch Goku at all and danced around his attacks.

Originally posted by carver9
Not a good example since Cell admitted that going buff would take away from their speed.



Cell even shows this when he buffs up. Not a good example at all since it was explain WHY Trunks wasnt as fast as cell.
No. The example is perfect, you are just refusing to admit it. Changing to a different form, he had more Ki but less speed. This proves, power level (ki sensing) does not equal speed.

Originally posted by carver9
Are you referring to flying, the place where DBZ sucks ass. It was pretty obvious that Goku was twice as fast since Nappa was unable to touch Goku at all and danced around his attacks. There isn't really any proof that their movement speed is as far below their combat speed as you say just to suit your argument....Their flying speed is how they hit somebody and get behind them to hit them again which you think is so fast. And their movement speed how they are able to fight faster than they eye can see...

Originally posted by Kento
There isn't really any proof that their movement speed is as far below their combat speed as you say just to suit your argument....Their flying speed is how they hit somebody and get behind them to hit them again which you think is so fast. And their movement speed how they are able to fight faster than they eye can see...

There's so many example about combat speed != travel speed. Kenshiro could punch so fast but his running speed is completely sux just like when he wants to save Mamiya's village from Raoh (He ran like a normal person.) and Saint Seiya where Seiya can punch at speed of light but on the other hand he and the other bronze saints ran like a normal person when they want to save Athena. Onime no Kyo who was stated by Kamijyo himself to fight at speed of light but he run from goyomon to other goyomon, and when he ran, it takes 1 hour to run from Hotaru's goyomon to Saishi and Saisei's goyomon.

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
There's so many example about combat speed != travel speed. Kenshiro could punch so fast but his running speed is completely sux just like when he wants to save Mamiya's village from Raoh (He ran like a normal person.) And Kenshiro has feats of him moving extremely fast. Like when he was toying with Jackal. Or toying with Joker. Meanwhile they also have things like him running to Yulia slower than stuff he's shown, or jumping out of Bart's car, and running back to a village and unable to get there before the whole village is slaughtered.

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
Onime no Kyo who was stated by Kamijyo himself to fight at speed of light but he run from goyomon to other goyomon, and when he ran, it takes 1 hour to run from Hotaru's goyomon to Saishi and Saisei's goyomon. Was this actually ever stated or is this one of those things people say but nobody has proof of? Plus Kyo gets a whole lot faster between his fight with Hotaru, and the end of the series...

Originally posted by Kento
Was this actually ever stated or is this one of those things people say but nobody has proof of? Plus Kyo gets a whole lot faster between his fight with Hotaru, and the end of the series...

The creator of Kyo himself stated this. If you asked about proof of his speed, I don't know how to proof it. But we have seen how many times Kyo actually killed his opponent so fast that people didn't see him moving. And his opponents were cut into pieces.

EDIT :

Example...

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00003352/000160322/12-13.jpg

I know what Kyo can do...I was asking if the statement was an actual statement that you can show proof of, or if it's one of those things that people say he said but show nothing of it, or like the whole Kishimoto saying Ninja's can't dodge bullets, which isn't what Kishi said.

Originally posted by Kento
I know what Kyo can do...I was asking if the statement was an actual statement that you can show proof of, or if it's one of those things that people say he said but show nothing of it, or like the whole Kishimoto saying Ninja's can't dodge bullets, which isn't what Kishi said.

I'll search for the scan.

About lightspeed statement, I got the info from moviecodec. Plus Mike ever said about that too (Even though he also said there's no proof about it...) link

So it's basically something somebody said that was stated but without a source. Doesn't automatically make it not true.....but I can't really think of anything Kyo has done that would make it seem he was even close to being that fast. Except maybe keeping up with Yukimura when he uses his eye technique but even then that's a stretch.

Originally posted by King Kandy
No. The example is perfect, you are just refusing to admit it. Changing to a different form, he had more Ki but less speed. This proves, power level (ki sensing) does not equal speed.

No its not perfect unless you ignore on panel statements from Goku AND Cell AND Vegeta.

Not a good example and again, read what Cell and Goku say before using that as evidence.

Originally posted by Kento
There isn't really any proof that their movement speed is as far below their combat speed as you say just to suit your argument....Their flying speed is how they hit somebody and get behind them to hit them again which you think is so fast. And their movement speed how they are able to fight faster than they eye can see...

There is a lot of proof. One of the proofs is, you can see DBZ fighters when they fly but during combat they are COMPLETELY invisible.

Originally posted by carver9
Anybody that knows ANYTHING about DBZ should know that the more powerful you are the more durable, stronger, and faster you are.
This is what you said. What I said, refutes this statement totally.

tl;dr

Originally posted by carver9
There is a lot of proof. One of the proofs is, you can see DBZ fighters when they fly but during combat they are COMPLETELY invisible. Just about every part of their fighting involves them moving around not standing still. Also when Gokou and Tien disappeared from the crowd they weren't just fighting they were moving around the ring, and when Gokou takes off his weights and knocks Tien out of the ring, pretty much all his does is run around the ring and knock them out, and Yamcha didn't see what he did. And Gokou went from next to Recoome to behind Burter and Jeice without them realizing it.

Originally posted by King Kandy
This is what you said. What I said, refutes this statement totally.

No it doesnt since AGAIN it was explained why Trunks was unable to hit Cell from Cell own mouth and from Goku and Trunks even said it. It doesnt refute sh** since on panel, it tells you WHY Trunks wasnt a challenge for Cell in that form.

Originally posted by Kento
Just about every part of their fighting involves them moving around not standing still. Also when Gokou and Tien disappeared from the crowd they weren't just fighting they were moving around the ring, and when Gokou takes off his weights and knocks Tien out of the ring, pretty much all his does is run around the ring and knock them out, and Yamcha didn't see what he did. And Gokou went from next to Recoome to behind Burter and Jeice without them realizing it.

None of what you said involved flight, it was pure combat speed.

Originally posted by carver9
None of what you said involved flight, it was pure combat speed. No it doesn't. Tien, and Gokou were running at each other, and appearing around the ring. People could see them when they fought just not when they moved from one point to the next. And Gokou wasn't fighting against Recoome, Burter, or Jeice when he went from standing next to Recoome to being behind Burter and Jeice. That's movement speed. Super Saiyan Gokou hitting Freeza and then flying in front of him. Flight speed. Gokou using after images is based on his movement speed.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I haven't taken physics in forever, and trying to do solve algebra with typing is a complete mess every time. Maybe i'll look over it later, but your guess is probably as good as mine--we know for a fact that your answer is wrong, but I can't identify at first glance where the part that was wrong is.

Thanks for the thought.



Yeah, that math is something we did, first semester, in physics...it's been forever since I've used G.


And, definitely, it's wrong. I'm missing or need to divide a factor of 10 9 at the very least), I think, because of some math. I woked, backwards, from what my weight would be on Jupiter compared to Earth. I used a common number I googled on the internet. It said that I would experience a force, on Earth, of 982.2xx kg/s/s, meaning, I was off by a factor of 10 (cause, it should have been close to 98, (ten times the gravity), not 982 (yes, I know working it backwards and having a factor of 10 would result in 9.806, but the math fluctuates, depending on which radius you're using because it's (Jupiter) an oblate spheroid.))

So, yeah, at the very least, I have a factor of 10 wrong, in there somewhere, not to mention to s/s portion I mentioned in my calc.


I could just look it up in one of my old physics books, but I's packed up, at home, somewhere, cause I just moved.


Anyway, if you get a wild hair, check to see what I did wrong. the Algebra portion of it is fine...it's doing the final math part that I'm screwing up on.

Originally posted by Kento
No it doesn't. Tien, and Gokou were running at each other, and appearing around the ring. People could see them when they fought just not when they moved from one point to the next. And Gokou wasn't fighting against Recoome, Burter, or Jeice when he went from standing next to Recoome to being behind Burter and Jeice. That's movement speed. Super Saiyan Gokou hitting Freeza and then flying in front of him. Flight speed. Gokou using after images is based on his movement speed.

I know they werent disappeared throughout the fight, that would have been crazy (tien and goku) but everything in that battle was combat speed, including them running; flying and running are two different things.

The scene with Recoome, Burter, or Jeice, well, I think he ran on that scene to their destination since we see him on the ground afterwards. DBZ short burst are amazing but their flight overall just sucks and there is nothing showing me that they can fly at high speeds or close to their combat speed.

Goku hitting frieza is short burst of speed which Goku along with other DBZ fighters are good at. I'm referring to their overall flight and it sucks. The reason I think it sucks is because Z fighter try not to use a lot of energy while flying, they basically try to reserve their energy. The only reason I am saying is because during the end of DBZ, pan who is MUCH weaker than Goku during the Sayain Saga, flew around the world in two minutes, so I'm pretty sure, Goku who is much more faster can do it at a better rate but since it was training she didnt care about the amount of KI she used during flight.

I agree, after images is based on movement speed but you can tell the difference between his combat and movement speed. How about this, show me one time where a human or anyone failed to see Goku or any Z fighter flying and then you'll have an argument because I can show you humans or Z fighters failing to see others during combat.

Originally posted by carver9
The only reason I am saying is because during the end of DBZ, pan who is MUCH weaker than Goku during the Sayain Saga, flew around the world in two minutes, so I'm pretty sure, Goku who is much more faster can do it at a better rate but since it was training she didnt care about the amount of KI she used during flight.

Carver, where did you get the information about Pan flew around the world in two minutes? I know she flew around the world but there's no statement about the time.

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
Carver, where did you get the information about Pan flew around the world in two minutes? I know she flew around the world but there's no statement about the time.

Didnt Goku say that it was 2 minutes after she did it? He was clocking her and he said that it was still too slow.

Originally posted by carver9
Didnt Goku say that it was 2 minutes after she did it? He was clocking her and he said that it was still too slow.

No. He didn't say anything. Not even in the next page.

http://img03.nj.us.mangafox.com/store/manga/214/42-016.0/compressed/421604.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
How about this, show me one time where a human or anyone failed to see Goku or any Z fighter flying and then you'll have an argument because I can show you humans or Z fighters failing to see others during combat. Every time they are fighting while flying in the air, and disappear from view.

Also if Gokou's running speed was so much faster than his flying speed, he would have ran instead of flying when trying to get to earth from King Kai's.

This whole argument is pretty retarded anyway. If, as carver seems to think, they are FTL in combat but somehow cannot travel that fast, this would lead to rather strange consequences. For example, it takes light less than 1/7th of a second to circle the earth. It takes even end - of - manga DBZ characters several minutes to simply reach another place on earth. This would indicate that they could only move at carver's wank speeds for a very very small fraction of time - say, a nanosecond. However, this is nonsensical. Why couldn't they simply move at lightspeed every other nanosecond, thus being able to travel the world in 2/7ths of a second? If I want to be generous and say that they can circle the earth in just 1 minute at the end of the series, then that would still mean they can only reach this crazy speed very rarely, say once or twice every 5 seconds. But that's not what we see in these fights.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
This whole argument is pretty retarded anyway. If, as carver seems to think, they are FTL in combat but somehow cannot travel that fast, this would lead to rather strange consequences. For example, it takes light less than 1/7th of a second to circle the earth. It takes even end - of - manga DBZ characters several minutes to simply reach another place on earth. This would indicate that they could only move at carver's wank speeds for a very very small fraction of time - say, a nanosecond. However, this is nonsensical. Why couldn't they simply move at lightspeed every other nanosecond, thus being able to travel the world in 2/7ths of a second? If I want to be generous and say that they can circle the earth in just 1 minute at the end of the series, then that would still mean they can only reach this crazy speed very rarely, say once or twice every 5 seconds. But that's not what we see in these fights.

Good point, I just think it strains them when flying because it takes a lot of KI away from them when they can simply use that KI during combat.

Originally posted by Kento
Every time they are fighting while flying in the air, and disappear from view.

Also if Gokou's running speed was so much faster than his flying speed, he would have ran instead of flying when trying to get to earth from King Kai's.

Short bursts.

Some of the time he ran, bounced, and flew when leaving the KI planet. He ran the entire way there though when he had the ability to fly.

Answer this, how did you feel about that scan where popo was teaching Goku how to fight as fast as lightning?

Originally posted by carver9
Good point, I just think it strains them when flying because it takes a lot of KI away from them when they can simply use that KI during combat.

If they want to get somewhere as fast as possible, then why not use their ki for speed?

Originally posted by carver9
Are you referring to flying, the place where DBZ sucks ass. It was pretty obvious that Goku was twice as fast since Nappa was unable to touch Goku at all and danced around his attacks.

There are 2 guns. Gun a and Gun b

Gun b fires at the same time as gun A

A bullet is going 100 milles a second
B bullet is going 101 miles a second

The first bullet with never catch up to the second bullet

You dont need to be twice as fast dumb shit.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
If they want to get somewhere as fast as possible, then why not use their ki for speed?

I already told you why and again, I dont care about their flight speed when their short burst are much more impressive. I already admitted to you that they cant fly at the speed of light.

Originally posted by carver9
Some of the time he ran, bounced, and flew when leaving the KI planet. He ran the entire way there though when he had the ability to fly. We never seen him running back iirc. He's flying or jumping to conserve energy. He also didn't know how long it would take him, and wasting energy flying would be pointless
Originally posted by carver9
Answer this, how did you feel about that scan where popo was teaching Goku how to fight as fast as lightning? That it's not literal. Not to mention, he tells Gokou to learn to feel the movement of the atmosphere to track movement. Like how he tracks Yakon iirc.

Originally posted by Kento
We never seen him running back iirc. He's flying or jumping to conserve energy. He also didn't know how long it would take him, and wasting energy flying would be pointless
That it's not literal. Not to mention, he tells Gokou to learn to feel the movement of the atmosphere to track movement. Like how he tracks Yakon iirc.

Where did you all get it that it took Goku a day to get back from snake way? I'm not saying that it is not true, I just want to see where it was said.

So basically, you are saying that PoPo didnt teach Goku how to move as fast as lightning and who is Yakon? I know the character, I just cant picture a face.

Originally posted by Gecko4lif
There are 2 guns. Gun a and Gun b

Gun b fires at the same time as gun A

A bullet is going 100 milles a second
B bullet is going 101 miles a second

The first bullet with never catch up to the second bullet

You dont need to be twice as fast dumb shit.

Didnt make sense but like I said, Goku was much more faster than Nappa and Nappa couldnt even touch Goku throughout the battle. The same Goku before his training on the KI planet would have gotten BLITZED by Nappa if it wasnt for his power level increasing. His power level gave him a boost in strength, speed, and durability. Just like Vegeta, at first he wasnt a challenge to 2nd form frieza, after Krillin shot him and he was healed by Dende, he became faster (able to track last form frieza moves) due to a higher power level.

Originally posted by carver9
Where did you all get it that it took Goku a day to get back from snake way? I'm not saying that it is not true, I just want to see where it was said.

So basically, you are saying that PoPo didnt teach Goku how to move as fast as lightning and who is Yakon? I know the character, I just cant picture a face. Curse you and making me look up scans...

Yes, that's what I'm saying. It's just a saying. Like moving as fast as the wind, and he did it in a flash type thing.

Yakon is the guy in the Buu Saga that Gokou goes ssj2 to overload in Babidi's spaceship.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v18/c008/5.html

Here is King Kai saying the saiyans will arrive tomorrow.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v18/c008/6.html

This is King Kai saying it'll take two days to get back.

But Gokou gets back the same day the saiyans get there.. So it only took him like a day. Though him cutting corners may have something to do with that but who knows.

Originally posted by Gecko4lif
There are 2 guns. Gun a and Gun b

Gun b fires at the same time as gun A

A bullet is going 100 milles a second
B bullet is going 101 miles a second

The first bullet with never catch up to the second bullet

You dont need to be twice as fast dumb shit.

Watch your language. If you can't debate without resorting to namecalling, then don't participate.

Originally posted by Kento
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v18/c008/5.html

Here is King Kai saying the saiyans will arrive tomorrow.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v18/c008/6.html

This is King Kai saying it'll take two days to get back.

But Gokou gets back the same day the saiyans get there.. So it only took him like a day. Though him cutting corners may have something to do with that but who knows.
Not really. If it was 12:01 AM when Goku left, and the Saiyans got there at 11:59 PM the following day, the statements are pretty much equivalent. Not saying literally that's what happened, but the discrepancy isn't necessarily huge.

Wouldn't that still be less than two days...

Originally posted by Kento
Wouldn't that still be less than two days...

In the context that King Kai was referring to, yes. King Kai didn't say "the day after tomorrow" which would be King Kandy's context, he said, "it will take you two days." AKA 48hours, 172800 seconds.

Originally posted by dadudemon
In the context that King Kai was referring to, yes. King Kai didn't say "the day after tomorrow" which would be King Kandy's context, he said, "it will take you two days." AKA 48hours, 172800 seconds.
I understand that, which is what i'm said in the beginning... my point is though, it could be one second less and still qualify... meaning the feat doesn't mean a thing.

Actually 24 hours and 1 second is 2 days

He didnt say the entire day

Originally posted by Gecko4lif
Actually 24 hours and 1 second is 2 days

He didnt say the entire day
King Kai didn't say in one day. He said they would arrive tomorrow -- that can be literally anything under 48 hours, depending on what the time was when he said it.

Anything over 24 hours but not exceeding 48 hours

Gokou was wished back in the middle of the day though so it's all really pointless to talk about Midnight or anything.

Originally posted by Kento
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v18/c008/5.html

Here is King Kai saying the saiyans will arrive tomorrow.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v18/c008/6.html

This is King Kai saying it'll take two days to get back.

But Gokou gets back the same day the saiyans get there.. So it only took him like a day. Though him cutting corners may have something to do with that but who knows.


HHHMMM, I wonder how fast Goku would have gotten there if he used the Kao ken the entire way. Didnt it like triple his strength, speed, and durability?

Originally posted by carver9
HHHMMM, I wonder how fast Goku would have gotten there if he used the Kao ken the entire way. Didnt it like triple his strength, speed, and durability? Yes, but caused his body extreme harm so it would've been kinda pointless. So he probably wouldn't of gotten there as fast. Run out of energy at one point or his body giving out.

Originally posted by Kento
Yes, but caused his body extreme harm so it would've been kinda pointless. So he probably wouldn't of gotten there as fast. Run out of energy at one point or his body giving out.

Naah, I dont think his body would have given out since he used the Kao ken through the entire fight between him and Vegeta.

Originally posted by Kento
Gokou was wished back in the middle of the day though so it's all really pointless to talk about Midnight or anything.
OK, then he could have taken 36 hours for all we know.

Originally posted by King Kandy
OK, then he could have taken 36 hours for all we know. Yea, but he was still suppose to get back the day after they arrived. He gets back at most 5 hours after they arrive. *shrugs* So, somewhere something is off.

Originally posted by King Kandy
OK, then he could have taken 36 hours for all we know.

Of course you'll say 36 hours.

Originally posted by Kento
Yea, but he was still suppose to get back the day after they arrived. He gets back at most 5 hours after they arrive. *shrugs* So, somewhere something is off.

All of this doesnt matter since we have a Goku that is a couple of thousands more powerful during the frieza saga. Since he was powerful, it is pretty obvious that his speed was increased by a large gap which means that whatever showing during snake way is moot.

I brought up the kao ken because if he used it, he would have crossed snake way in far less time since it did increase his speed by a large gap.

After the frieza saga, his speed was increased so much that he didnt even need the kao ken anymore.

Originally posted by carver9
All of this doesnt matter since we have a Goku that is a couple of thousands more powerful during the frieza saga. Since he was powerful, it is pretty obvious that his speed was increased by a large gap which means that whatever showing during snake way is moot. How much of a gap is uncertain though.
Originally posted by carver9
I brought up the kao ken because if he used it, he would have crossed snake way in far less time since it did increase his speed by a large gap. Kaioken is a risky move though..More so at that point in time when his body could barley handle anything but double his power. And it would still have taken him probably 14 or more hours to get back, and using Kaioken could've been fatal.
Originally posted by carver9
After the frieza saga, his speed was increased so much that he didnt even need the kao ken anymore. Because he got Super Saiyan. Which is a much more stable power up, and stronger.

I think Kayoken proved without a shadow of a doubt that increased powerlevel is an advantage in ever single physical aspect that a Z fighter brings to the game... After years of debating the DBZ issue... I find typically the only way people would be able to renounce the uber level of Z fighters' powers are to read too much into simple plot holes... though given the implied powers, those plot holes are glaring one's...

Just too difficult to make your characters continuously look more and more impressive when you have them running around faster than light and blowing up moons when they are millions of times weaker than they end up to become.

Given that power level scales exponentially for less and less having a high power level really doesnt maen to much

Originally posted by carver9
I already told you why and again, I dont care about their flight speed when their short burst are much more impressive. I already admitted to you that they cant fly at the speed of light.

You're completely missing my point. The only way that their travel speed could be so much lower than their combat speed is if they could only move their bodies at such a high speed for a tiny, tiny fraction of a second and needed to wait several seconds before doing it again. That is contrary to what we see in the fights.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You're completely missing my point. The only way that their travel speed could be so much lower than their combat speed is if they could only move their bodies at such a high speed for a tiny, tiny fraction of a second and needed to wait several seconds before doing it again. That is contrary to what we see in the fights.

Naah, I think you are missing the point when we have on panel showings or super humans being unable to see Goku during combat but when he is flying, humans are able to see him.



Its right there in front of your face Mike, you are just missing it.

Short burst.

Originally posted by jinzin
I think Kayoken proved without a shadow of a doubt that increased powerlevel is an advantage in ever single physical aspect that a Z fighter brings to the game... After years of debating the DBZ issue... I find typically the only way people would be able to renounce the uber level of Z fighters' powers are to read too much into simple plot holes... though given the implied powers, those plot holes are glaring one's...

Just too difficult to make your characters continuously look more and more impressive when you have them running around faster than light and blowing up moons when they are millions of times weaker than they end up to become.

Good post.

Originally posted by Kento

How much of a gap is uncertain though.

It should be a huge gap since we have people like Raditz only being 1200 power level and Goku and Picollo only being 500 and they were unable to even scratch Raditz hair and they were fighting together.

Originally posted by Kento
Kaioken is a risky move though..More so at that point in time when his body could barley handle anything but double his power. And it would still have taken him probably 14 or more hours to get back, and using Kaioken could've been fatal.

You are not getting the point that I am trying to make. Whatever caculations that you all are using for Goku's speed during snake way should be tripled since during using kao ken times one increased his speed by that much and thats just kayo ken times one. He boosted it up further during his fight with Vegeta and frieza.


Originally posted by Kento
Because he got Super Saiyan. Which is a much more stable power up, and stronger.


Goku using Kayo Ken times 20 was still unable to keep up with Frieza so I am pretty sure Frieza and Goku during Super Sayain mode was fighting at uncontrollable levels of speed. I guess that is why they did so much in 5 minutes before the planet exploded.

Originally posted by carver9
Naah, I think you are missing the point when we have on panel showings or super humans being unable to see Goku during combat but when he is flying, humans are able to see him.



Its right there in front of your face Mike, you are just missing it.

Short burst.

Anyone who wants to argue that travel speed is directly linked to combat speedc, I just tell them:

Look at Val Amorr's history.

Seriously, does he have ONE feat of conventional super speed? The closest I can think of happened pre crisis when he spun Superboy into the ground like a drill, TKOing him. Yet he fights with speedsters all the time.. Daxamites, Kryptonians, Tornado Twins, you name it..

(And I realize Val has no real place on an anime/manga board, but I think he's relevent to this conversation..)

Originally posted by carver9
I already told you why and again, I dont care about their flight speed when their short burst are much more impressive. I already admitted to you that they cant fly at the speed of light.

Not until series end anyways.

Check out the manga, when Gotenks takes his trip around the earth. When they show the cutaway scene of the earth, it looks like you're seeing 7 rings of movement lines...

Originally posted by cdtm
Not until series end anyways.

Check out the manga, when Gotenks takes his trip around the earth. When they show the cutaway scene of the earth, it looks like you're seeing 7 rings of movement lines...

Yeah, but that all hinges on if the earth was rotating or not (see other thread).

Originally posted by carver9
It should be a huge gap since we have people like Raditz only being 1200 power level and Goku and Picollo only being 500 and they were unable to even scratch Raditz hair and they were fighting together. Fighting together means nothing in DB. If one has a higher power he can take on everybody weaker without a problem. Doesn't mean going from 8,000 to like what 160,000 training to Namek made him 20x faster.


Originally posted by carver9
You are not getting the point that I am trying to make. Whatever caculations that you all are using for Goku's speed during snake way should be tripled since during using kao ken times one increased his speed by that much and thats just kayo ken times one. He boosted it up further during his fight with Vegeta and frieza. There isn't a Kaioken x1....and Kaioken x2 just doubles his speed, strength, and ki. So at best Vegeta is twice as fast as Mach 17. Assuming the whole NF thing came out right at placing Gokou at Mach 17. And assuming it's true, going by that it'll be kinda easy to get the slowest possible speed ssj3 Gokou could go.....which would be slower than he actually is.....


Originally posted by carver9
Goku using Kayo Ken times 20 was still unable to keep up with Frieza so I am pretty sure Frieza and Goku during Super Sayain mode was fighting at uncontrollable levels of speed. I guess that is why they did so much in 5 minutes before the planet exploded. Super Saiyan is x50 to the base stats. Though still impossible to know how fast he can go as how much faster he got from Earth to Namek is unknown.

Originally posted by Kento
Fighting together means nothing in DB. If one has a higher power he can take on everybody weaker without a problem. Doesn't mean going from 8,000 to like what 160,000 training to Namek made him 20x faster.


There isn't a Kaioken x1....and Kaioken x2 just doubles his speed, strength, and ki. So at best Vegeta is twice as fast as Mach 17. Assuming the whole NF thing came out right at placing Gokou at Mach 17. And assuming it's true, going by that it'll be kinda easy to get the slowest possible speed ssj3 Gokou could go.....which would be slower than he actually is.....


Super Saiyan is x50 to the base stats. Though still impossible to know how fast he can go as how much faster he got from Earth to Namek is unknown.

Fighting together means a lot in DBZ and again, they were unable to touch Raditz and it was due to the large gap in power which aided him with his speed and a person with a power level of 8000 fighting someone with a power level of 16000 wouldnt even see the more powerful person during combat. No matter the amount of speed that person had, a person with a power level of 8000 speed is like a snail to the 160000 person. Example...look at Jeice and Burta vs Goku. They didnt even see him flinch throughout the entire fight and they couldnt even touch him and they had a power level in the 60000.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Yeah, but that all hinges on if the earth was rotating or not (see other thread).

How can you tell if a planet is rotating in a comic?

Its pretty obvious what the writer was trying to show everyone.

It takes people that is trying to discredit the feat and low ball it for anything else to be seen that wasnt what happened on panel.

Originally posted by carver9
Fighting together means a lot in DBZ and again, they were unable to touch Raditz and it was due to the large gap in power which aided him with his speed and a person with a power level of 8000 fighting someone with a power level of 16000 wouldnt even see the more powerful person during combat. No matter the amount of speed that person had, a person with a power level of 8000 speed is like a snail to the 160000 person. Example...look at Jeice and Burta vs Goku. They didnt even see him flinch throughout the entire fight and they couldnt even touch him and they had a power level in the 60000.

Not really....Radditz was the only exception cause of his tail, and then being hurt by somebody stronger. Put 18 against everybody from the Freeza Saga and she won't have any trouble at all. They couldn't touch him cause they were slower than him. Doesn't prove how much his speed increased at all.

Originally posted by carver9
Its pretty obvious what the writer was trying to show everyone.. Yea that he went around the world six times....and claimed he went around dozens. And somewhere between forming, and 29 minutes he went around the world those six times. One panel doesn't mean he went around it in one second. Not to mention he still takes almost a minute to get to Buu's house.

Originally posted by carver9
How can you tell if a planet is rotating in a comic?

Its pretty obvious what the writer was trying to show everyone.

It takes people that is trying to discredit the feat and low ball it for anything else to be seen that wasnt what happened on panel.

And besides, even without the travel speed feats, what about when they dodge multiple attacks, like Freeza beams? You can't really argue the FB were "slow" ki attacks, and surely wouldn't be any slower than the attacks used to bust the moon.

And they dodge not one, but multiples like an energizer bunny on crack?

Originally posted by Kento
Not really....Radditz was the only exception cause of his tail, and then being hurt by somebody stronger. Put 18 against everybody from the Freeza Saga and she won't have any trouble at all. They couldn't touch him cause they were slower than him. Doesn't prove how much his speed increased at all.

Yea that he went around the world six times....and claimed he went around dozens. And somewhere between forming, and 29 minutes he went around the world those six times. One panel doesn't mean he went around it in one second. Not to mention he still takes almost a minute to get to Buu's house.

His tail dont have anything to do with what we are discussing. I agree, you can put 18 against everybody from the frieza saga and she wont have any trouble because she is more powerful which means that she is faster, stronger, and more durable than everyone from the frieza saga. They wouldnt be able to even touch her if she doesnt want to be touched.

He went around the world in one panel numerous of times and then he took a nap. That is MUCH faster than the speed of light.

Originally posted by cdtm
And besides, even without the travel speed feats, what about when they dodge multiple attacks, like Freeza beams? You can't really argue the FB were "slow" ki attacks, and surely wouldn't be any slower than the attacks used to bust the moon.

And they dodge not one, but multiples like an energizer bunny on crack?


I agree with this. They have numerous of showings putting them FAR above the speed of light.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree with this. They have numerous of showings putting them FAR above the speed of light.

How about when Burter and Jeice shot beams at Goku and the beams seemed to phase right through him because he dodged them so fast? These were highly trained Elite soldiers, keep in mind. They would've seen his movements if they were at the level of the "Krillin vs Jackie Chun" fight.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
How about when Burter and Jeice shot beams at Goku and the beams seemed to phase right through him because he dodged them so fast? These were highly trained Elite soldiers, keep in mind. They would've seen his movements if they were at the level of the "Krillin vs Jackie Chun" fight.

I agree with this and that was one of the main showings that made me realize that Goku was>light because not only were they throwing super speed punches at him but they still didnt see him moving/dodging because he was moving so fast, they also shot blast at him that went through his body. Blast that are>master roshi blast that made it to the moon in a second and it went through Goku's body like he was a ghost but it was just him moving at tremendous speeds.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree with this and that was one of the main showings that made me realize that Goku was>light because not only were they throwing super speed punches at him but they still didnt see him moving/dodging because he was moving so fast, they also shot blast at him that went through his body. Blast that are>master roshi blast that made it to the moon in a second and it went through Goku's body like he was a ghost but it was just him moving at tremendous speeds.

And they showed Burter's perspetive where Krillan and Gohan, two super speedsters themselves, were moving in slow motion. Virtually standing still.

Yet they couldn't even detect Goku was moving.

And keep in mind early in the series, Roshi was fast enough to catch every single bullet from a machinegun. A multi bullet timer, and Roshi was slower than Kami, who couldn't even see Goku and Piccolo moving with his "godly eyes"..

By the time Goku arrives on Namek, that sort of speed is nothing.

Originally posted by cdtm
And they showed Burter's perspetive where Krillan and Gohan, two super speedsters themselves, were moving in slow motion. Virtually standing still.

Yet they couldn't even detect Goku was moving.

Damn. O_O

Originally posted by cdtm
And they showed Burter's perspetive where Krillan and Gohan, two super speedsters themselves, were moving in slow motion. Virtually standing still.

Yet they couldn't even detect Goku was moving.

And keep in mind early in the series, Roshi was fast enough to catch every single bullet from a machinegun. A multi bullet timer, and Roshi was slower than Kami, who couldn't even see Goku and Piccolo moving with his "godly eyes"..

By the time Goku arrives on Namek, that sort of speed is nothing.

Hell, by the time Goku left training with King Ki, that kind of speed was nothing to him.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
How about when Burter and Jeice shot beams at Goku and the beams seemed to phase right through him because he dodged them so fast? How bout the fact that was just filler scene as we see the whole fight in the manga and only one blast is ever shot and Gokou never moves so fast they seem to go through him?
Originally posted by carver9
His tail dont have anything to do with what we are discussing. I agree, you can put 18 against everybody from the frieza saga and she wont have any trouble because she is more powerful which means that she is faster, stronger, and more durable than everyone from the frieza saga. They wouldnt be able to even touch her if she doesnt want to be touched.

He went around the world in one panel numerous of times and then he took a nap. That is MUCH faster than the speed of light. Radditz is the only time that multiple fighters worked..... You said fighting together means a lot in DBZ..it doesn't.

Except one panel doesn't equate to showing how fast one is doing. It was just to show he went around the world a few times. Five or six at that....No time frame as to how long. And even if he DID take a nap..a nap can be like five minutes.

Originally posted by Kento
How bout the fact that was just filler scene as we see the whole fight in the manga and only one blast is ever shot and Gokou never moves so fast they seem to go through him?
Radditz is the only time that multiple fighters worked..... You said fighting together means a lot in DBZ..it doesn't.

Except one panel doesn't equate to showing how fast one is doing. It was just to show he went around the world a few times. Five or six at that....No time frame as to how long. And even if he DID take a nap..a nap can be like five minutes.

OMG, what examples of an on panel showing do you have of someone going around the world in one panel. When you answer that, show me where you are getting it that the writer isnt trying to show this person gong faster than light.

It was a one panel showing of speed, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that he went around the world at a pretty high rate of speed in some seconds.

To my knowledge, a nap is 20 minutes; 5 minutes isnt a nap.

Originally posted by carver9
OMG, what examples of an on panel showing do you have of someone going around the world in one panel. When you answer that, show me where you are getting it that the writer isnt trying to show this person gong faster than light.

It was a one panel showing of speed, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that he went around the world at a pretty high rate of speed in some seconds.

To my knowledge, a nap is 20 minutes; 5 minutes isnt a nap.

And it doesn't make any sense to take a nap in 1 minute...

Originally posted by Kento
How bout the fact that was just filler scene as we see the whole fight in the manga and only one blast is ever shot and Gokou never moves so fast they seem to go through him?
Radditz is the only time that multiple fighters worked..... You said fighting together means a lot in DBZ..it doesn't.

Except one panel doesn't equate to showing how fast one is doing. It was just to show he went around the world a few times. Five or six at that....No time frame as to how long. And even if he DID take a nap..a nap can be like five minutes.

This post is crap, man.
You know good and well that the anime supplements the manga in reference to fight scenes because obviously you can do things with anime that you cant with manga.

Also, I seem to recall Vegeta blasting Cell to help Gohan. Didn't you say that Raditz was the only time? ...Yeah, you did.

Originally posted by Kento
Radditz is the only time that multiple fighters worked..... You said fighting together means a lot in DBZ..it doesn't.




Uh.... fighting together allowed the Z fighters to stay in a fight long enough to beat frieza.

Nappa was almost beaten by teamwork during his fight with the Z fighters. Gohan simply failed to deliver.

Cell at the end of his Kamehameha off....

Hell isn't the Spirit Bomb kind of a testiment to working together to beat an oppontent?

Didn't one of the Spirit bombs have the power of surround planets and the sun and stars and stuff?