FoTJ: Allies

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Darth Truculent
I read in the Star Wars insider that there is a huge turn of events. Possibly someone dies, but it made reference that Ben and Vestara become closer . . . possibly romantically and she defects. So, any opinions on what will happen?

Hewhoknowsall
I wonder what the "staggering truth" is.

It'll be interesting how the alliance between Luke/Ben and the Tribe goes. Based on the blurb about Vortex, they're still allies, albeit "treacherous allies" by Vortex, so they won't completely split but there will likely be many fights and betrayals between them. Also, the Sith still seem to totally underestimate Luke and Ben, especially Luke.

Daala is really pushing the Jedi here. I wonder what this new law's going to be, and if the GA and Jedi will becomes enemies or something.

As for the Moth plot, I'm not sure. Will it succeed? IDK. Still skeptical about Niathal's "suicide".

Oh, and what happened to all of those side characters that seemed to be important but suddenly disappear? Like that Anakin Solo look-alike and Dorvan's assistant?

truejedi
And Zekk. Did I miss something, or was this the first time Zekk was mentioned since Invincible?

Gideon
Apparently Luke defeats Abeloth; sounds dumb for the apparent archvillain to be beaten so early,... but I'm looking forward to this.

Red Nemesis
Maybe luke is Abeloth

Eminence
No, silly, Luke is Leia.

Abeloth is clearly Darth Revan.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Eminence
No, silly, Luke is Leia.

Abeloth is clearly Darth Revan.

this is deep brah

Hewhoknowsall
What if Callista is?

What if Bandon is?


Oh, and how do you know that Luke defeats Abeloth? Are spoilers leaking out?

Nephthys
Oh, thanks for spoilering that HWKA. stick out tongue

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh, thanks for spoilering that HWKA. stick out tongue

Oops...sorry!

Can Rex, like, edit it?

Gideon
According to my informant, the battle is apparently more of a spiritual/internal conflict than a duel to the death.

Translation: Luke is apparently questioning his sexual orientation and Abeloth is his conservative mother/father/tentacle abyssal demon thingy. In the end, Luke triumphs by being brave enough to flaunt it; Abeloth dissipates into the Great Republican Unknown, hissing about Obama's socialist overtures, and vanishes. LukexHan plz?

Nephthys
Only becuase you asked nicely- http://www.fanfiction.net/movie/Star_Wars/10/2/0/1/0/634/636/0/0/1/

Would you also care for some graphic BrucexJoker action that severely disturbed me?

truejedi
Is this book out yet? Gideon, where are you getting your info?

Gideon
TJ
Is this book out yet?

no



YOU WILL NOT BREAK ME!!1!

TFN... maybe.

Hewhoknowsall
I got a bunch of spoilers as well from that site about Allies.

Apparently...grr...IDK how to create a spoilers highlight-to-read thingy.

truejedi
just type this is a spoiler
with the asterisks removed.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by truejedi
just type this is a spoiler
with the asterisks removed.

Thanks!


So, apparently

Jaina (I think it's Jaina and not Jag) breaks the engagement with Jag/Jaina
As said by Gideon, Luke beats Abeloth
Tahiri admits to sleeping with Caedus aka Jacen
Dyon is almost killed/killed
When Luke was mindwalking in Abyss, that presence he thought was Mara is/was apparently actually Castilla, although Castilla is dead


And some others as well.

Nephthys
That third spoiler made me seriously facepalm. Just urk.....

truejedi
I will actually be bothered in a negative way if Jaina breaks it off with Jag. They are the only love story I have believed in in the entire saga. Their chemistry is just well-written to this point.

Agent White
Originally posted by Nephthys
That third spoiler made me seriously facepalm. Just urk.....

Yeah but seriously...Jacen gets around...

Anyways, I've overall been disappointed with FOTJ so far. Sure, there are some fun action moments and some "touching SW family moments", but it feels to me like the issue is dragging on too slowly.

ALSO

The Jedi, rest of the GA, and the public are all letting Daala throw her strange ideals around WAY too much. I mean, just coming out of a brutal war where the GA and the Jedi were enemies, you'd think the galaxy would have more sense than to allow Daala to make the government so anti-Jedi. And Daala herself, for that matter. A GA Chief of State. It makes no sense. Seeing as she was such a despised Imperial leader during the Galactic Civil War, why was the government so eager to hand over the reigns of the successor of the Rebel Alliance to her? She probably even has a few outstanding arrest warrants that nobody's cashed in yet.

Gideon
If I recall correctly, Daala was also a war criminal and terrorist.

Agent White
There you go. If she pushes the Jedi too far, they can just reach into the legal document banks, pull out a few warrants arresting Daala for war crimes/crimes against sentience, and BOOM! Problem solved.

In my opinion, Darth Caedus was and always will be the immortal leader of the Galactic Alliance, but that's just my opinion....

truejedi
Daala is only cool because she tried to save Pelleon.

I wish Kyp had killed her in JA.

Ms.Marvel
i like daala. shes just a **** up of epic proportions. i dont understand why shes allowed to be involved in any important events in the mythos at all TBH... its like a horrible actor who keeps getting scripts

Hewhoknowsall
It's strange how the general public in the SW universe is often anti Jedi, forgetting about the fact that the Jedi saved the galaxy from pretty much every threat it's ever faced.

Agent White
All it takes is one good anti-Jedi leader, and the public follows them. The SW public is even more gullible than the real-world public.

truejedi
So what's the release date?

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Gideon
If I recall correctly, Daala was also a war criminal and terrorist.

I really don't understand how the public of the SW universe would accept a former Imperial war criminal and terrorist that helped develop superweapons such as the Sun Crusher as the chief of state. Have they lost their minds? That would be like us accepting Osama as the president.

truejedi
It was a bit of a stretch. It was really really bad move on Luke's part, regardless. If anything, it was time for Luke to seize control. (though i'm sure that wasn't what he wanted).

Gideon
No.

I submit to you that it would be too tough to call between Luke and Daala in terms of leadership skills.

Luke really is a disaster when it comes to leading; he's an unparalleled hero, he's superb at making peace, but he's ill-equipped to maintain it.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Gideon
No.

I submit to you that it would be too tough to call between Luke and Daala in terms of leadership skills.

Luke really is a disaster when it comes to leading; he's an unparalleled hero, he's superb at making peace, but he's ill-equipped to maintain it.

How?

Nephthys
He's a total thicko.

Gideon
N
He's a total thicko.

Precisely.

Skywalker has no concept of civil discourse, debate, or point-making (as demonstrated in his ridiculous debate with the war criminal herself her take the moral high ground]), the Dark Nest Crisis and Yuuzhan Vong invasion are littered with his inability to control or rein in the actions of his subordinates, and Legacy of the Force shows him release a dangerous enemy simply because he couldn't control his emotions.

Which is to say he's apparently never heard of an arrest.

Autokrat
You know, a lack of leadership skill is a rather glaring lack considering Luke's position.

Nephthys
Why do you think so many of his Jedi turn to the darkside?

Darth Truculent
Kyp was possessed by Exar Kun. Zekk was originally a dark Jedi but became a Jedi Knight. Brakkis was an infiltrator. Mara was an Emperor's Hand, but became Luke's wife and a Jedi Master. Tahiri never fully turned. Only Jacen and Alema Rar fully turned to the dark side.

Agent White
Daala is nothing more than a criminal, but Gideon's right, Luke can't lead a peacetime government for...well, you get the point.

I say, bring back Cal Omas. Or Darth Caedus. Both led the Alliance through some pretty tough times.

Nephthys
Leia should have been in charge. I recall that she was pretty competantafter Endor. And she isn't that old.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Nephthys
Leia should have been in charge. I recall that she was pretty competantafter Endor. And she isn't that old.

Good point.

Gideon
Why they didn't turn over the government to Pellaeon from day one is beyond me; he is a famous Imperial, sure, but he doesn't have Daala's record of stupidity or terrorism attached to his name.

Wynn Dorvan, Daala's aide, is definitely preferable to Daala herself. In addition to her grotesque incompetence and reputation, Dorvan notes in Backlash that she's taking a page from Palpatine's playbook.

truejedi
Originally posted by Gideon


Which is to say he's apparently never heard of an arrest.

hahaha. I literally lol'd Excellent point. He is still a farmboy.

truejedi
Pelleon, or just give it back to a freaking senate and have an ELECTION. How hard would a simple ELECTION be? Anything else is not a democracy anyway.

and somebody mentioned Cal Omas: He's dead.

Gideon
I think Daala was elected.

truejedi
No mention of it in Invincible, but she was the only "universally acceptable" choice according to Leia. Basically, i think the higher-ups of the different factions picked her.

Created a monster. Honestly, the way this galaxy has a galatic war literally every year or 2 is melodrama.

Agent White
I think that with a galaxy as large as the SW galaxy...you can't have a democratic government. Too many voices to listen too. Authoritarian seems to work pretty well. If only the damned Rebels hadn't overthrown the damned Empire...

Oh, and regarding Cal Omas, death has never seeemd to stop the Star Wars universe before.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Gideon

Which is to say he's apparently never heard of an arrest.

But in FOTJ he's displayed a pretty large knowledge of the physics of black holes. cool

I think Luke's a pretty good leader compared to Daala though.

Oh yeah: how does Daala get away with attacking the Temple with Mandos? Does she have legal authorization to do that?

Ms.Marvel
the only thing luke should ever be allowed to lead is a fighter squadron.

anything other then that is out of his mental jurisdiction.

Darth Truculent
There might be a resurgence of the Mandalorians, but under a new leader. The Moffs might cause a brief second Mandalorian Wars, but nothing on the scale of the first. In KOTOR2, Onasi stated that Revan believed it wasn't the Mandalorians choice to fight. Maybe Abeloth will convice the Mandalorians to attack the Sith? Who the hell knows?

Gideon
I took a trip up to Barnes&Noble today to see if I was going to make a purchase; I flipped through the book for about an hour.

Daala's government is in the lurch; the tenacious reporter whose name eludes me from the previous FotJ books has gone so far as to publicly compare her to Palpatine, Vader, and Caedus in a series of reports and advertisements; Dorvan is becoming convinced that she's letting her ego and personal grudge with the Jedi corrupt her; Vestara, in a discussion with her father, reveals that she's both aware of Mara's former position as Palpatine's Hand and considers Vader to be "one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history," the book is littered with accolades -- though none of them original or specific -- for Caedus and Abeloth by various characters. Vestara and Ben's relationship continues to grow and it's surprisingly well-written. Luke shrewdly does not trust the Sith despite their formal alliance and continues to hold Vestara as collateral, all the while trying to blunt her influence over Ben. Abeloth rears her ugly head and Luke and four of "the strongest and most powerful Sith" of the Lost Tribe take her on in battle. TFN was correct: the physical details of the fight are few and far between, and the Sith cunningly attempt -- at least once -- during the fight to kill Luke as well as Abeloth. It's largely Abeloth vs. Luke, though, in a mystical internal battle as well, with the Sith focusing on using a Force net technique to prevent Abeloth from bringing her full powers to bear. She attempts to manipulate Luke through images of Callista, but the attempt fails due to advice from Mara earlier in the book. The novel ends with Tahiri on trial and a recording of her confrontation with Pellaeon in Revelation; after it's finished, the court and jury are decidedly against her.

Hewhoknowsall
Tahiri realistically should win the trial; she was given orders by the Galactic Alliance Government (well, Caedus, who was Chief of State and thus part of the gov't) to do that, and then the Galactic Alliance gov't is persecuting her for it? WTF?

Nephthys
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i309/gottahavegraphics/SmileyHmm.gif Hmmmm.... You read too fast.

Gideon
I would imagine that the authors are trying to make a analogy between the Galactic Alliance under Caedus and Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler; Hitler, even moreso than Caedus, was the democratically elected and legitimate leader of Germany, yet intelligence agencies across the globe to this day hunt down ex-S.S. officers and Nazi colluders. It stems from the fact that Germany was an outlaw nation led by war criminals.

Now I realize that the assassination of one man is a far cry from genocide, but in principle, it is similar: A leader gives an underling an order . It doesn't help matters that Daala was a known personal friend of Pellaeon and that he was pretty much universally respected.

To the eyes of many, Tahiri could have refused.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Gideon
I would imagine that the authors are trying to make a analogy between the Galactic Alliance under Caedus and Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler; Hitler, even moreso than Caedus, was the democratically elected and legitimate leader of Germany, yet intelligence agencies across the globe to this day hunt down ex-S.S. officers and Nazi colluders. It stems from the fact that Germany was an outlaw nation led by war criminals.

Now I realize that the assassination of one man is a far cry from genocide, but in principle, it is similar: A leader gives an underling an order . It doesn't help matters that Daala was a known personal friend of Pellaeon and that he was pretty much universally respected.

To the eyes of many, Tahiri could have refused.

So if Caedus is apparently like Hitler, what would Sidious be?

And if Tahiri refused, I wouldn't be surprised if Daala tried her for disobeying an order. It was a lose-lose for Tahiri.

Gideon
Palpatine is probably every bit of Stalin as he is Hitler. Caedus, in his behavior and attitude, was very much like Hitler post-Stalingrad. There were obvious signs of encroaching insanity and mental instability.

Nephthys
That trial seems like a farse to me. The law doesn't judge people via morality, but by law. Hope she gets off, I like her crazy sado ways.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Nephthys
That trial seems like a farse to me. The law doesn't judge people via morality, but by law. Hope she gets off, I like her crazy sado ways.

By law, in a war you're supposed to follow a superior's orders (aka Caedus's), although morally the right thing to do would be to only follow it if it isn't insane/evil/suicidal.

Dr McBeefington
Not a bad read at all(just finished). But we can put to rest the idea that any of the Lost Tribe members can take down Luke Skywalker.

truejedi
can't wait to read it. They keep cranking up the price on all of these novels, and to add insult to injury decided to hardcover every single one of these mf'ers.

Ms.Marvel
yeah that really pisses me off. money grubbing douchebags

Red Nemesis
I just read the first one and (since I will be gone and will not have to deal with teh dramax I kick off) would like to note that I did not find Luke's handling of the Hidden One to resemble anything like a "struggle."

truejedi
Red, i've kinda been with you in each of these books, it seems like Luke handles each situation with relative ease (Relative being a key modifier, they make sure to set circumstances against him in every scenario)

Gids doesn't think so, but that's the beauty of literature I guess.

(Did I just call Star Wars literature? ) I haven't read the massive spoiler above yet though, i hope to leave a little something to the reading.

Agent White
Originally posted by Gideon
I would imagine that the authors are trying to make a analogy between the Galactic Alliance under Caedus and Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler; Hitler, even moreso than Caedus, was the democratically elected and legitimate leader of Germany, yet intelligence agencies across the globe to this day hunt down ex-S.S. officers and Nazi colluders. It stems from the fact that Germany was an outlaw nation led by war criminals.

Now I realize that the assassination of one man is a far cry from genocide, but in principle, it is similar: A leader gives an underling an order . It doesn't help matters that Daala was a known personal friend of Pellaeon and that he was pretty much universally respected.

To the eyes of many, Tahiri could have refused.

...yes and no. Caedus wasn't nearly as bad as Hitler. He had some brutal acts of destruction, like the whole "burn down Kashyyyk" thing, but he didn't perpetrate genocide and widespread mass killings the way Hitler did. Really, the only reason there was a war at all that required killing was because Corellia was being a b*tch the whole time for no apparent reason.

Personally, the whole Tahiri trial is just a result of Daala's lingering hatred of Jedi. Think about the size of the Galactic Alliance Military under Darth Caedus. Millions of sentient beings carrying out Caedus' will (i.e. what war criminal herself Daala views as war crimes) because it's their duty to do so, yet do we ever see them being put on trial? No. Hell, do we see high-up officers in the Galactic Alliance Guard (Caedus' Waffen-SS) on trial? Nope. Only ever Jedi, because Daala hates Jedi, and because Tahiri is/kind of is/was a Jedi.

Gideon
He wasn't on the verge of death or anything, but unless I'm getting creative and adding n-canon sentences or somehow twisting what happened through bolding and underlining, the Hidden One a.) caused Luke physical pain, b.) successfully impeded Luke's encroach, and c.) summoned manifestations of the Force that required Luke's exertion to defeat.

And that's after Luke knew the attack was coming.

How is that not a struggle?

truejedi
I guess, I just didn't consider him pushed to his limits or anything by it I suppose. Makes me curious how they always go on and on to the extent of the power of all the foes he has been meeting recently. They realized they deus ex machina'd him, and the only way to fix it is to try to insinuate that he is running into the most dangerous opponents of his life now.

But really, with the ability to hide in the force AND cloak himself from the naked eye, every fight he is in really should end with a lightsaber blade out of nowhere killing the opponent. Anything else is just arrogant foolishness on his part.

Dr McBeefington
Btw, I'm not sure anyone noticed any errors in this book, but I noticed two.

1. The author kept spelling it "Kyp Durran", not Durron.

2. The author claimed Callista fought in the clone wars, which isn't accurate at all. She was Luke's age and I believe she participated in the Galactic Civil War, but that's about it.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Gideon
He wasn't on the verge of death or anything, but unless I'm getting creative and adding n-canon sentences or somehow twisting what happened through bolding and underlining, the Hidden One a.) caused Luke physical pain, b.) successfully impeded Luke's encroach, and c.) summoned manifestations of the Force that required Luke's exertion to defeat.

And that's after Luke knew the attack was coming.

How is that not a struggle?

Luke = arguably has the most feats of any other characters. Hidden One = virtual unknown. Because of this, it would make more sense to use the fight as a benchmark to place the Hidden One in relation to Luke rather than the other way around.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Luke = arguably has the most feats of any other characters. Hidden One = virtual unknown. Because of this, it would make more sense to use the fight as a benchmark to place the Hidden One in relation to Luke rather than the other way around.

Eh most feats doesn't mean greatest, ANYWHERE. The only argument one can use is that Luke had absolutely no intention to hurt The Hidden One.

Gideon
Ya, I'm not suggesting that Luke was intending to unleash lethal force, but there is no doubt that he was trying to stop the Hidden One and when you take into account that Ben was in immediate danger, there is no question that Luke would have killed him if necessary. Unless Luke has no regard for his son, I'd say he went into that fight with the same level of restraint that Mace Windu did with Palpatine.

By the way, Callista was a Jedi Knight during the Clone Wars; she's got a lot of years on Luke.

Nephthys
Gigidy.

edit: Jesus, another jedi got through Order 66!? What were those clones smoking?

Hewhoknowsall
My point is that Luke struggling with the Hidden One is more of a plus for the Hidden One than a minus for Luke; my "most feats" claim is to say that Luke is NOT an unknown whereas the Hidden One is, so it wouldn't make much sense to determine Luke's power using a fight with an unknown.

Nephthys
Wookie says that like 200 survived. Wtf?! They could have easily rebuilt from that. By the time Luke grew up he'd have had about 1000 jedi at his back. And it would have been awesome!

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
Ya, I'm not suggesting that Luke was intending to unleash lethal force, but there is no doubt that he was trying to stop the Hidden One and when you take into account that Ben was in immediate danger, there is no question that Luke would have killed him if necessary. Unless Luke has no regard for his son, I'd say he went into that fight with the same level of restraint that Mace Windu did with Palpatine.

By the way, Callista was a Jedi Knight during the Clone Wars; she's got a lot of years on Luke.

This is at best debatable, and at worse nonsense Gideon. I wouldn't ever compare that situation to Mace's situation. You're going to have to do better than that.


And Callista fought in the Clone Wars? Really? That means she's what, 30 years older than Luke? You're telling me she was 50-60 when Luke was banging her?

Gideon
DS
This is at best debatable, and at worse nonsense Gideon. I wouldn't ever compare that situation to Mace's situation. You're going to have to do better than that.

Me: I'm not saying Luke was looking to kill the guy, but he was certainly looking to stop him, after all, his son was in danger.

You: no.

Come back with something like that again, DS, and we'll have to go through all the tedious bullshit we do every other time you come in swinging; you're already two strikes down.



She transferred her essence into the Eye of Palpatine's databanks and took a new body when Luke found her.

Darth Truculent
In the trial, I think the defense will use the same old excuse that all war criminals use - "I was just following orders." But in Tahiri's case, she was under the influence of an extremely powerful Sith Lord. Although the assassination was committed not in wartime, Ben did the same and he wasn't arrested and prosecuted.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
In the trial, I think the defense will use the same old excuse that all war criminals use - "I was just following orders." But in Tahiri's case, she was under the influence of an extremely powerful Sith Lord. Although the assassination was committed not in wartime, Ben did the same and he wasn't arrested and prosecuted.

Right. Tahiri shouldn't be persecuted because it was the GA government (well, Caedus, who is part of it) that ordered her to do it, and for the GA gov't to persecute her for it when it was they that ordered her is just ridiculous.

Oh, and they wouldn't want to persecute Ben because A) he's just 16 and only 14 at the time and B) Daala doesn't want to get killed by Luke.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
Me: I'm not saying Luke was looking to kill the guy, but he was certainly looking to stop him, after all, his son was in danger.

You: no.

Come back with something like that again, DS, and we'll have to go through all the tedious bullshit we do every other time you come in swinging; you're already two strikes down.


It was more like

You: He wasn't looking to kill the guy, just to stop him because he thought his son was in danger. This is very similar to the Mace Windu situation.

Me: While I agree that he was looking to stop The One, it is nowhere comparable to the Windu/Palpatine situation.

You: Yes huh, sarcasm-snooty comment-sarcasm.

You really need to get a clue Gideon. Making a ridiculous comparison and then claiming it' fact with nothing other than Nai-like sarcasm doesn't make your post anymore truthful or valid.




So? what does it have to do with the Clone Wars? I asked for her background regarding the Clone Wars. In fact, I thought Luke fell in love with her before the Eye of Palpatine incident. I'll have to consult Jedi vs. Sith.

Gideon
DS
You: This is very similar to the Mace Windu situation.



^ Bullshit, this is what I said; you're a liar.



Bullshit. Windu went into that fight with the intent to arrest Palpatine, to stop him. He only made his decision to kill after he realized that Palpatine had control of the courts and the Senate. Hence why I said that I'd say Luke went in there with a similar level of restraint: stop first, kill if necessary.



This isn't sarcasm. You, like the other times we've got heated, read into shit that wasn't there. And now you've lied to cover your ass. I told you that there won't be a third time. You can concede, make a respectful argument, or STFU.



...

You said she was 60 or so when Luke was banging her; I explained what happened: she transferred her essence into the Eye of Palpatine and then found a new body when Luke found her.

Edit: I expect an apology for your bullshit little attitude and, with it, a valid argument or a concession.

Darth Truculent
Luke did fall somewhat in love with Calista. The problem was she lost her ability to use the Force. Cept when it did manifest, it was the dark side and she split never to be seen again. She feared she would turn to the dark side.

Eminence
YOU'LL GET NO SUCH PLEASURE FROM US

Gideon
Eminence
YOU'LL GET NO SUCH PLEASURE FROM US

He'll try his best to avoid it. But the fact remains that he did what he always does: went in heated, blindly started swinging, and missed the mark by far.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
^ Bullshit, this is what I said; you're a liar.
You do realize that "with the same level of restraint that Mace Windu did with Palpatine"=very similar situation, right? Or close to it.




From the book, there was no indication that Luke thought he would have to kill The Hidden One. He KNEW he would have to stop him. This is in contrast to Mace confronting the Dark Lord of the Sith.




There was no lie, and I didn't have to cover my ass anywhere. Stop accusing me of doing something you just did. As in claiming you know my intentions, essentially pulling a psychiatrist Lightsnake.



...


I asked you to clarify. Where does he say she fought in the CLone WArs and when was the Eye of Palpatine incident?



There's no bullshit attitude Gideon. As usual you blow up over something minor, claim to know my intentions, and demand an apology or concession. You'll get neither, consider this matter closed.

Gideon
No, it isn't.



^ This is what I said. In order for what I said to be what you said, I would have to have said,



...And yet I didn't say that. Just to recap: you just made a claim (that you said exactly what I said); this claim was proven false. Which means one of two things: you're either wrong or you lied.

As a fellow law student, I'll let you pick. Choose carefully.



No, it isn't the same thing. And if you're a great law student like you suggest, you'd know that.

Which I suspect you do, hence your attitude change.



I said that Luke demonstrated the same level of restraint; his son was in danger, hence why Luke warned him to stay back. If Luke didn't consider the Hidden One to be a threat, to be dangerous to the person he loves the most in this world, then he wouldn't have warned Ben to stay out of the way.

Which is what I was suggesting the entire time: the Hidden One was dangerous to Luke, but even more dangerous to Ben. Ben is the person that Luke loves most in the universe. Luke knew he had to stop the Hidden One, and it isn't a stretch to assume that he would have killed the Hidden One if necessary.

Which is exactly the state of mind that Mace was in: Palpatine was dangerous to Mace, but even more dangerous to the Republic. The Republic is the institution that Mace loves most in the universe. Mace knew he had to stop Palpatine, and it isn't a stretch to assume that he would have killed Palpatine if necessary.

That's my reasoning, that's my opinion. It has merit and you attacked it recklessly and stupidly because you didn't like it. No one cares: refute it, agree to disagree, or STFU.



Not anymore, there isn't. And we both know exactly why.



I got something far better.

Nice edit, DS, but too late.

Dr McBeefington
1. Where was the claim that I said exactly what you said?

2. Continuing to repeat the same theme "I've proven it!" doesn't make it true.


Do you understand what "fellow" means? For you to even use that word, you would be asserting that you are a law student, and I'm a fellow law student.


Again with the psychology. You should really stop making assumptions and passing them off as fact.


Where did I ever assert that I was a great law student? Do I have to continue telling you to stop making things up? NOW consider the matter closed.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
My point is that Luke struggling with the Hidden One is more of a plus for the Hidden One than a minus for Luke; my "most feats" claim is to say that Luke is NOT an unknown whereas the Hidden One is, so it wouldn't make much sense to determine Luke's power using a fight with an unknown.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Only Jacen and Alema Rar fully turned to the dark side.

You forgot Dolph.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
In fact, I thought Luke fell in love with her before the Eye of Palpatine incident.

No, Luke first met Callista aboard the Eye of Palpatine. At the time she was a spirit inhabiting the Eye's computer. She regained physical form at the end of the novel when Cray Mingla allowed her to inhabit her body while Cray took her place in order to destroy the Eye.

Some of Callista's exploits during the Clone Wars are detailed in the novels "No Prisoners" and "Order 66."

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Luke did fall somewhat in love with Calista.

"Somewhat" nothing. They loved each other very much.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Nephthys
Gigidy.

edit: Jesus, another jedi got through Order 66!? What were those clones smoking?

There weren't any clones around in this case.

Callista was a member of "the Altisian Jedi," a splinter group independent of the main Order. The Altisian Jedi had no problems with having romantic relationships or training adults.

Callista and her group didn't fight in the Clone Wars (aside from helping out sometimes) or lead any clones. They spent the war providing humanitarian aid and serving as relief workers.

Darth Truculent
My apologies concerning Dolph - maybe this will redeem my mistake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDl9ZMfj6aE

Question though - what happened to the Jedi Adventurers?

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
My apologies concerning Dolph - maybe this will redeem my mistake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDl9ZMfj6aE

Question though - what happened to the Jedi Adventurers?

No problem. I've made plenty of mistakes worse than that.

truejedi
Just finished reading this at borders. 27 dollars==SAVED


thoughts:

1. I really like the Vestera and Ben romance. Its really, really well-written. I keep hoping Vestera turns. I am actually worried if she was faking being poisoned at the end to get Ben away from helping Luke when the Sith turned on him. even then: Maybe she was trying to keep her sith people from killing him when they killed Luke.

2. During that battle: Ben said he had never seen his father fight that hard, or somethign to that extent. Now he saw what we have considered a "bloodlusted" luke fight Caedus. So was luke not going all out against Caedus?

3. Really sad about Callista. She deserved a better end. I always hoped to find out what happened to her.

4. Luke is badass. The "Ben noticed proudly that his father was still winning" , even at the point that it was him against all the Sith AND abeloth. (granted, the details of the fight WERE sketchy, so its hard to know how much to contribute to him, but it was still pretty sweet. They need to explain why attacking the other Jedi killed Abeloth though. That was not very well done. Now he is alone with 4 sith. I hope in the next book, we see an epic battle.)

5. Daala has gone too far. Time for someone to take her out. Shooting an unarmed 11 year old on steps of the Jedi temple? I hate her character like nothing else right now. Plus, she was the one responsible for Tahiri's tape leaking, AND she is probably responsible for the fake Jedi killing Bwatuu, PLUS she is stopping slave revolts? SHe is pure evil. As evil as Caedus ever was RIGHT NOW. These wars that Luke fights NEVER work. The last one was for 2 years of peace. Now they need all out war again to take her out.

6. Speaking of which, it was weird how much attention was paid to slavery in this book. plus the whole freedom fight. Since when was this a problem? It hasn't been mentioned in ANY other books.

7. 27.00 is WAY too much money to pay for this book. Lucasarts has lost its collective minds.

ben222
I didn't understand, who wins the fight between luke and abeloth and the other sith

Hewhoknowsall
Natasi Daala needs to GTFO. And that Mando she hired to. Time for the Jedi to assassinate her. Oh, and the case against Tahiri is hypocritical to the extreme. Why didn't the persecute all those GAG soldiers that tortured captives in secrecy? Oh, and what about Daala, who is a war criminal and a terrorist. The fictional SW public is so gullible it's ridiculous.

Eminence
Was he nearly as badass as he was in MINDAR?!

Hewhoknowsall
I have to admit that the murder of Kani in cold blood by the Mandos was really emotionally moving and I felt really sorry for Kani. I also wish that the Mando that murdered Kani while Kani was unarmed, along with Natasi Daala, were to suffer a slow, painful death.

truejedi
Well, its obvious that the Jedi aren't going to be admitted healed, since the fake jedi attacked Bwatuu. This is going to get ugly fast. That was Daala's man.

Hewhoknowsall
Is Bwatuu dead? It isn't 100% confirmed.

Oh, and again, I hope that that Mando and Natasi Daala get killed.

truejedi
he is pretty much dead.

Dr McBeefington
I wonder who the fake Jedi were.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I wonder who the fake Jedi were.

I suspect Lecersen (or however you spell his name) and his co-conspirators. I think there's a reason why we suddenly don't have their PoV in Allies. Maybe the author wants to keep things more secret to the reader.

Hewhoknowsall
Sorry for double post, but I realized that Daala seemed a bit regretful in her final meeting with Bwatuu. In wonder if this implies anything.

truejedi
yeah, that's why i figured it was her, but a friend pointed out the fact that the imperials were conspiculously absent from this book, and that made sense too.

Darth_Glentract
I just finished this and thought it was pretty good. Actually couldn't put it down. I continue to be really frustrated by how no one, especially none of the Jedi, who isn't either a Skywalker or Solo, does anything of significance. Kyp, Kyle, Saba, ect are all really powerful. They don't do jack though. Been hoping it will be remedied in future books, but I've been hoping that since the Dark Nest books, when it really began.

Why don't think have Sekot come out and own some shop on Abeloth and the Sith?

Why doesn't Raynar re-assume control of the Killicks? Daala is off the Order's back just like that. The Jedi also then have the ability to fight the Sith. Without the Dark Nest, there shouldn't be any problems. At minimum, he could at least use his super-powered Force abilities to own up when needed from time to time.

Originally posted by truejedi
1. I really like the Vestera and Ben romance. Its really, really well-written. I keep hoping Vestera turns. I am actually worried if she was faking being poisoned at the end to get Ben away from helping Luke when the Sith turned on him. even then: Maybe she was trying to keep her sith people from killing him when they killed Luke.

I agree with you here. Best part of the book in my opinion. Glad the author was a woman, as all the relationships in the book were handled better than normal in my opinion.

Originally posted by truejedi
2. During that battle: Ben said he had never seen his father fight that hard, or somethign to that extent. Now he saw what we have considered a "bloodlusted" luke fight Caedus. So was luke not going all out against Caedus?

I'm not really sure what I thought here. Given how Luke was able to pin Jacen in his chair with what seemed like ease, it's possible I guess. Doesn't make much sense though.

Originally posted by truejedi
3. Really sad about Callista. She deserved a better end. I always hoped to find out what happened to her.

I thought it was cool they brought her back, but she was like 100 at this point. Not exactly ancient. But yeah, when she died, I was like "WTF? That's it?"

Originally posted by truejedi
4. Luke is badass. The "Ben noticed proudly that his father was still winning" , even at the point that it was him against all the Sith AND abeloth. (granted, the details of the fight WERE sketchy, so its hard to know how much to contribute to him, but it was still pretty sweet. They need to explain why attacking the other Jedi killed Abeloth though. That was not very well done. Now he is alone with 4 sith. I hope in the next book, we see an epic battle.)

Vestara's dad took one swing at him. Luke wasn't fighting Abeloth and the Sith single-handily.

Originally posted by truejedi
5. Daala has gone too far. Time for someone to take her out. Shooting an unarmed 11 year old on steps of the Jedi temple? I hate her character like nothing else right now. Plus, she was the one responsible for Tahiri's tape leaking, AND she is probably responsible for the fake Jedi killing Bwatuu, PLUS she is stopping slave revolts? SHe is pure evil. As evil as Caedus ever was RIGHT NOW. These wars that Luke fights NEVER work. The last one was for 2 years of peace. Now they need all out war again to take her out.

She wasn't 11. She was an adult. Twas freakin ridiculous though. I was hoping Kyp would have reached out and shattered the Mando with the Force, but alas, only Skywalkers and Solo's can do anything of significance apparently.

Originally posted by truejedi
6. Speaking of which, it was weird how much attention was paid to slavery in this book. plus the whole freedom fight. Since when was this a problem? It hasn't been mentioned in ANY other books.

Agreed.

Originally posted by truejedi
7. 27.00 is WAY too much money to pay for this book. Lucasarts has lost its collective minds.

Agreed again. WTF

truejedi
Glentract: pretty sure she was 11? You positive on her age? I'm thinking it was referred to several times.

Darth_Glentract
I know she was described as a bright young woman at one point. Also, it'd be a little weird if Kenth had been spending so much ime with a really young girl.

Nephthys
Weird? Or unbelievably KINKY!? wink

truejedi
She was a jedi though. I will try to get into a borders over the weekend and check..

Darth_Glentract
I flipped back through it and she never found an age given, but at one point she's a "bright young woman" and then immediately after she's killed she's described as "just a child."

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I just finished this and thought it was pretty good. Actually couldn't put it down. I continue to be really frustrated by how no one, especially none of the Jedi, who isn't either a Skywalker or Solo, does anything of significance. Kyp, Kyle, Saba, ect are all really powerful. They don't do jack though. Been hoping it will be remedied in future books, but I've been hoping that since the Dark Nest books, when it really began.



The NJO Jedi Council is a joke without Luke around.



Again, the NJO Jedi Council is a joke without Luke around.



Yeah. I really want Ben and Vestara to hook up by the end of FOTJ.



Luke was very, very angry when he fought Caedus.



Castilla wasn't Abeloth. Abeloth just absorbed Castilla. Which makes me wonder; what happens to Castilla when that happens?

Oh, and remember that opening part of FOTJ: Outcast in italics? Was that referring to Castilla?



It seems to imply that Luke did not detect the swing until Ben told him. Good thing for Luke that Ben was there.



I really want that mando that shot Kani to die a slow and painful death. Oh, and Daala as well.



I also don't get why Daala wants to put down the revolts.

ben222
I have just finished FoTJ: Allies and I think that luke is very very powerful in this book

truejedi
Ben, you are my friend, and I agree with your analysis.

@Gideon! LEAVE MY NEW FRIEND ALONE!!!

Darth Truculent
Question is, why did Callista go to the Maw in the first place? Was she the first to be 'called' there? Did she go crazy like some of the other Jedi in this series?

The murder on the Temple doorstep might possibly leave a sour taste in the public's mouth. And when the Sith are revealed to the public as well, mass hysteria and guess whose gonna have to turn to save the GA?

You might like this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U-F53FY1fg

Music comes from a classic war film

Hewhoknowsall
What happens to Castilla? The opening blurb in italics in FOTJ: Outcast implies that she's still alive, perhaps trapped somewhere or something.

Eminence
How exactly does Abeloth die? Fight? Sabotage? Wookiepedia doesn't give a whole lot of details.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Eminence
How exactly does Abeloth die? Fight? Sabotage? Wookiepedia doesn't give a whole lot of details.

Luke encounters Abeloth to find that Abeloth has taken the form of Castilla. After he has a big internal dramatic conflict with his inner feelings, Luke decides that Abeloth needs to be cut down.

So Jedi Master Luke and 3 of his sith "allies" attack Abeloth while the hundreds of sith "allies" form some sort of Force web learned from Dathomir that weakens Abeloth. Vestara feigns weakness to distract Ben while the sith try and kill Luke. Ben fights Gavar and starts winning. Luke and company drive Abeloth back and Abeloth leaves, taking the form of Dyon. But Luke isn't fooled and cuts Abeloth down. Abeloth dies, although we don't know if she'll return or not.

Nephthys
So she doesn't die?

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Nephthys
So she doesn't die?

...

I edited the post.

Nephthys
You're on ignore, twit you big dummy! I can't see your posts beyond the initial click

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Nephthys
You're on ignore, twit you big dummy! I can't see your posts beyond the initial click

Well, maybe you should click on my post, because I was trying to tell people how Abeloth dies. I don't see why you'd want to ignore that just because it's from me.

Oh, and I don't get the point of the ignore function. I've tried it before, but I can't resist the temptation of reading people's posts. smile If you don't X post, just don't read it. To ignore ALL of my posts is stupid since a lot of my posts wouldn't (or shouldn't) annoy you, such as me telling you about FOTJ: Allies.

Nephthys
Obviously, I can not respond to whatever Nothing posted so I'll just wonder aloud at what people think Abeloth's position in the Mythos rankngs is. If it took Luke and others to fight her when she was weakened, would people say if would have been different with just a 1 on 1 with Luke, or would he have still beat her ass?

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Nephthys
Obviously, I can not respond to whatever Nothing posted so I'll just wonder aloud at what people think Abeloth's position in the Mythos rankngs is. If it took Luke and others to fight her when she was weakened, would people say if would have been different with just a 1 on 1 with Luke, or would he have still beat her ass?

Luke might lose to Abeloth in a one on one fight.

Oh, and Nephthys, you are so awesome! If you respond to this by saying "Hewhoknowsall is awesome", I will give you a reward.

Maybe

ben222
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Luke might lose to Abeloth in a one on one fight.

Oh, and Nephthys, you are so awesome! If you respond to this by saying "Hewhoknowsall is awesome", I will give you a reward.

Maybe
I disagree, on the contrary, luke should win .
Indeed, FoTJ: Allies shows that luke wins easily against abeloth ...

Nephthys
Go suck a railroad spike you crusty little pigs pizzle.

Reward?

truejedi
Abeloth is dead. Not sure if Luke could take Abeloth or not. The Sith made a net to prevent Abeloth from fleeing, so if she wanted to flee from luke in a regular duel, she probably could.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by ben222
I disagree, on the contrary, luke should win .
Indeed, FoTJ: Allies shows that luke wins easily against abeloth ...

Luke did with the help of four other very powerful Force users and backup from hundreds of Sith. Not exactly winning easily.

truejedi
From Ben's perspective, his father was fightning against all the the Sith AND abeloth. And still winning. It said something about how proud it made Ben to see that. So... No, that's not how the narrator put it, the narrator didn't explain well at all what was happening, but from Ben's perspective, who was closer to the situation than you or i....

Gideon
TJ
From Ben's perspective, his father was fightning against all the the Sith AND abeloth. And still winning. It said something about how proud it made Ben to see that. So... No, that's not how the narrator put it, the narrator didn't explain well at all what was happening, but from Ben's perspective, who was closer to the situation than you or i....

The Sith were trying to capture her, Abeloth was trying to escape, Luke was killing her; he was succeeding in his goals, hence the winning. That's not a three-way combat scenario where they were both ganging up on Luke and he was kicking everyone's ass.

Nice try.

ben222
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Luke did with the help of four other very powerful Force users and backup from hundreds of Sith. Not exactly winning easily.

According to many other forum, luke win easiy against abeloth.
Whereas he was only vs sith and abeloth (It is even written in the book)

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by ben222
According to many other forum, luke win easiy against abeloth.
Whereas he was only vs sith and abeloth (It is even written in the book)

Well, I actually bought the book and read it. I think like half the people on here only skimmed it in the store. It wasn't easy and the Sith were benefiting him.

truejedi
I read it. Kudos to you for buying it though. they weren't solely benefiting him.

Gideon
I understand that defending Luke is your M.O. (and what a noble one it is), but you're traditionally fragile when it comes to the facts. I flipped through the book and remember quite clearly that the Sith were attempting to subdue Abeloth through a Force net whereas Luke was trying to destroy her, how the hell would their actions not help him? If you provide evidence, I'll concede.

luv u

truejedi
Originally posted by Gideon
I understand that defending Luke is your M.O. (and what a noble one it is), but you're traditionally fragile when it comes to the facts. I flipped through the book and remember quite clearly that the Sith were attempting to subdue Abeloth through a Force net whereas Luke was trying to destroy her, how the hell would their actions not help him? If you provide evidence, I'll concede.

luv u

I guess the word solely didn't clarify my position enough.

I'm saying that this wasn't a fight that would shake down to Luke and Sith vs. Abeloth. The sith weren't going all out against abeloth, because they wanted her alive. The only one trying to kill her was Luke. Luke was also forced to watch his back from five sith who were happy with him dying.

Bit of a melee, but the Sith weren't solely ALLIES to luke in this battle. It wasn't that straightforward.


I liked your explanation the other day, and was fine with that: the one about Luke was still winning BECAUSE he wanted Abeloth dead while the others wanted her captured, and he was getting his way.

Gideon
^ That the Sith were absolutely willing (or wishing, if you'd like) for Luke to bite the big one during this fight does not mean that Abeloth wasn't by far the primary target. They were far more focused about capturing her than they were with dicking around with Luke. Now you can interpret things however you want for your own personal satisfaction, but the fact remains that the Sith's attempt to capture Abeloth would logically benefit Luke's attempt to kill her; or do you think a foe that is restrained is somehow harder to kill? It's not like he was fighting them and her simultaneously.

truejedi
Don't get me wrong Gideon: Abeloth is the single most powerful character in the mythos. From the description of that fight, coupled with who luke is, and the fact that there were i believe "thousands" of sith on that planet: One on One, she kills ANYONE. I'm not making an argument where Luke could kill her.


So yes, in that sense, of providing him an opportunity to do so, yes they were a benefit. I just don't think we can consider them ONLY a benefit. They were also an active threat.

Gideon
O_o

Wait, what? I r cunfuzed. If I remember correctly, there were only four or five Sith Lords with Luke when he went to confront Abeloth. I don't recall any other members of the Sith team or Sith agents playing an active role in her defeat.

Despite constant mentions of her considerable power, I'm not convinced that she's anything approaching skilled with it. But, as you say, the fight was rather abstract.



According to DG, Vestara's father took one swing at Luke (if I remember, this was blocked by Ben). Where else did they attack him?

truejedi
I guess I was under the impression that he was fighting them off for the rest of the duel? I'll have to re-read that part to be sure I guess. at the very least it would have him half watching his back the whole time.

No, there was a LARGE contingent of sith on the planet that were doing the web-weaving. I do believe it said THOUSANDS. The 5 sith were luke were the only one's with lightsabers.

Did it ever say what Abeloth was fighting back WITH? she didn't have a lightsaber. That confused me. How were they all swinging their sabers over and over if she didn't have anything to block them with?

Hewhoknowsall
I have the book.

Abeloth encounter Luke and 3 or 4 treacherous sith.

Hundreds of other treacherous sith form Force net to weaken Abeloth and prevent her from escaping.

Luke and his "allies" attack Abeloth.

Gavar tries to kill Luke.

Ben fights Gavar after Ben was distracted by Vestara. Ben is beating Gavar.

Sith keep on attacking Abeloth while trying to kill Luke as well.

Ben muses that Luke is winning despite all this, and that Luke is fighting like Ben has never seen him fight.

Abeloth runs away and takes the form of Dyon, but Luke isn't fooled and kills Abeloth.

truejedi
HWKA: What was abeloth blocking the lightsabers with?

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by truejedi
HWKA: What was abeloth blocking the lightsabers with?

I've thought about that too. I'm not sure. I don't think it said in the book. Was she avoiding them or using the Force to block them?

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by truejedi
Don't get me wrong Gideon: Abeloth is the single most powerful character in the mythos.

...um forgetting Sekot by any chance?

truejedi
Sekot is powerful, because its a planet, but was it ever shown to be ridiculously powerful in the force? Its been forever since I have read anything from NJO. 5, 6 years at least.

Eminence
Why is Abeloth considered so powerful? I'm aware that several factions went to great lengths to ensure her imprisonment or death, but I haven't read anything directly suggesting she's the most powerful creature ever.

Her conspicuous absence from the versus arena suggests most here wouldn't be able to quantify the nature of her abilities either.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by truejedi
Sekot is powerful, because its a planet, but was it ever shown to be ridiculously powerful in the force? Its been forever since I have read anything from NJO. 5, 6 years at least.

Since Luke basically crapped his pants at the idea of Sekot turning to the Darkside, I think it's pretty set that Sekot is a beast. There's individual feats that were pretty crazy, but I don't feel like looking them up at the moment.

truejedi
^its cool then. that was just it, i couldn't remember the individual feats either, but did believe i rememembered some existing.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Eminence
Why is Abeloth considered so powerful? I'm aware that several factions went to great lengths to ensure her imprisonment or death, but I haven't read anything directly suggesting she's the most powerful creature ever.

Her conspicuous absence from the versus arena suggests most here wouldn't be able to quantify the nature of her abilities either.

As Gideon said, her abilities aren't exactly combat related. She IS however, a being of pure dark side energy. She has enough power to cause psychosis in random Jedi, as well as whisper to Luke in his sleep while he's asleep. She also controls the flora and fauna of her planet, destroyed Sinkhole Station, and made "Ship" obey her without any question. She's definitely a ridiculously powerful being and it took a lot of sith and Luke to take her down, but it doesn't look like she has combat related abilities, or chooses not to use them.

truejedi
really? she was killing lots of peeps!

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington She has enough power to cause psychosis in random Jedi, as well as whisper to Luke in his sleep while he's asleep.

I'd be really impressed if she could whisper to him in his sleep while he's awake. :P

Lord Lucien
I just noticed that the cover of the novel has Jude Law and Mark Whalberg on it.

Nephthys
Lol

http://www.njoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/allies.jpgp

You speak truthiness.

Ms.Marvel
link doesnt work

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
link doesnt work Here

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