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Straight up Lightsaber fight with no force powers. This is ROTS Sidious. Who wins the battle?

Sidious.

ROTS Sidious? At this point, I would say Caedus.

Agreed. Sidious hasn't touched his lightsaber in decades.

Except whilst instructing Dooku.

Originally posted by Shoes
Except whilst instructing Dooku.
Prove that he taught Dooku how to use a lightsaber. Afterall Dooku was already a great duelest before his turn to the dark side.

Yeah, I know Sidious trained Dooku in using the dark side of the force, but I didn't think he furthered his lightsaber combat training. After all, Dooku had already mastered Makashi before he left the Jedi order - hard to improve on that.

But room for improvement on all other forms, as Dooku taught Grievous. This would imply that Dooku had mastery/high end proficiency over multiple forms.

zomg.

Indeed.

Originally posted by Shoes
But room for improvement on all other forms, as Dooku taught Grievous. This would imply that Dooku had mastery/high end proficiency over multiple forms. It's possible, but I'm not sure there's anything to support it.

Originally posted by Shoes
But room for improvement on all other forms, as Dooku taught Grievous. This would imply that Dooku had mastery/high end proficiency over multiple forms.
He was a lightsaber instructor before leaving the order, so he likely already was proficent in multiple forms.

Originally posted by Galan007
It's possible, but I'm not sure there's anything to support it.

Irrelevant.

Palpatine wins because of speed.

Originally posted by Shoes
Irrelevant.

Palpatine wins because of speed. If it's Irrelavent why did you bring it up with to begin with?

Shoes: It is kinda weird to call your own comment irrelevant.

Caedus wins a saber-only battle, imo.

Shoes, you're retarded. Dooku was a lightsaber master before he met Sidious.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Shoes, you're retarded. Dooku was a lightsaber master before he met Sidious.

A pleasure to make your acquaintance.



I lost consciousness and my face hit the keyboard.

What I meant to say is that Dooku's skill is irrelevant; all that matters is if Sidious' skill hasn't diminished. I was under the impression that Dooku was instructed in Dun Moch, and therefore had at least some kind of lightsaber sparring with Sidious, bringing me back to my original point:

Sidious because of speed.

Caedus because of betterness.

I think we can all agree that the moon has either of them beat.

Originally posted by Won Fei Fon
I think we can all agree that the moon has either of them beat.

elaboarate

That's your opinion on the matter, friend.

Originally posted by Won Fei Fon
I think we can all agree that the moon has either of them beat.

Proof:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY6insZjCfU

Originally posted by Won Fei Fon
That's your opinion on the matter, friend.

I'm not your friend, guy.

He's not your guy, buddy.

hes not your buddeh, friend!

What? What?

isnt that how you guys talk? mmm

I mean WHAT!

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
What? What?

In the butt.

REPORTED!!!

palpatine wins easily because in lotf,Caedus is ridiculous in particular against luke

Yeah, that makes sense.

I'd say Solo soloes him

if he doesn't solo him, he dies, since it is one on one and all...

Originally posted by ben222
palpatine wins easily because in lotf,Caedus is ridiculous in particular against luke

?

Originally posted by truejedi
if he doesn't solo him, he dies, since it is one on one and all...

elaboarate

elaborate what?

Who doesn't solo who and if so who kills who why?

He said Caedus solos. Seems painfully obvious that whoever wins in 1on1 would be soloing the other.

Oh. BS is on ignore; I didn't understand what happened.

Back on ignore you go for that statement.

posted by Shoes
?




have you ever read lotf inferno

Originally posted by truejedi
He said Caedus solos. Seems painfully obvious that whoever wins in 1on1 would be soloing the other. He said Solo solos. I guess he was refering to when Solo shot Sidious down.

Jacen Solo. Caedus Solo. Not Han.

I think ROTS Palpatine would lose in a lightsaber duel against Caedus, though Caedus was still rather young for a Force-wielder (only mid-thirties?). Force-users get better with age, like wine, but remember Luke defeating reborn Palpatine at a young age, and Luke had started training in his twenties.

Interesting to note that Luke would have easily slaughtered Caedus had Ben not been in front (from Fury novel of LOTF, right)? However, don't discount that Caedus was trained from a young kid, while Luke didn't start training until the same age that his father had become a Knight. And they have the same Force potential, if Caedus doesn't potentially have more than Luke...

Hmm...well, Caedus stood up to Luke in a fight, and Palpatine is out of practice for over a decade. Still though, it's a tough call for the saber fight. In Force and all out Sidious likely wins.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Hmm...well, Caedus stood up to Luke in a fight, and Palpatine is out of practice for over a decade. Still though, it's a tough call for the saber fight. In Force and all out Sidious likely wins.

Yea good point. Sidious had AT LEAST 30-40 years more immersion and knowledge of Sith powers than Caedus had.

And you're right, Caedus did do reasonably well againt Skywalker, however I do recall Caedus musing about how easily Luke defeated (this was the Fury Novel, I think?) him, but that Luke had spared his life, because Ben was in front.

Truly though, ROTS novelization made it clear that all of Dooku's knowledge, all of his training (80 years worth) meant absolutely NOTHING when Anakin decided to win. Force knowledge is not a be-all, end-all decider in a duel.

If knowledge was the deciding factor in a fight then Odan-Urr would curbstomp almost everybody. As it, he can't. Power and ability is needed as well.

lol

Force knowledge is obviously a contributing factor.

Shoes
lol

Force knowledge is obviously a contributing factor.

Not that it matters here.

Caedus, before he became a Sith, had access to the same sort of information that Luke did: the Chu'unthor (a Jedi training ground), some scattered holocrons, access to a couple of non-Jedi/Sith Force organizations, not to mention Lumiya. This, combined with his Skywalker-class aptitude for the Force, means he has at least the same amount of Force knowledge and mastery as Palpatine.

Originally posted by Gideon
Not that it matters here.

Caedus, before he became a Sith, had access to the same sort of information that Luke did: the Chu'unthor (a Jedi training ground), some scattered holocrons, access to a couple of non-Jedi/Sith Force organizations, not to mention Lumiya. This, combined with his Skywalker-class aptitude for the Force, means he has at least the same amount of Force knowledge and mastery as Palpatine.

I don't think anyone else got this sarcasm.

DS
I don't think anyone else got this sarcasm.

How? Explain to me how this does not make sense? I'm usually more blatant with sarcasm anyways.

Originally posted by Gideon
How? Explain to me how this does not make sense? I'm usually more blatant with sarcasm anyways.

Lol.. You're not doing this in the right thread Gideon. He's not going to be viewing this one.

Who? Nai? I don't need him to, I put him back on ignore after we concluded our discussion.

But he did make a persuasive argument.

I'm not sure how this is accurate.

DS
I'm not sure how this is accurate.

Neither did I, at first. But look closer:


The Chu'unthor, which was an old Jedi Order training facility that likely possessed archives of information.
Anything leftover from Palpatine's archives that Luke may or may not have found in the Imperial Palace once it was seized by the New Republic
The Falanassi? Fallanassi? Whatever, you know what I mean.
A couple of other Force-wielding cults visited every now and then.
The possible Great Holocron and Telos Holocron; he had three years to study those.


That's a lot of information. Now I understand that the Emperor had a lot, too, but there's no reason to conclude that there is any great disparity in terms of Force knowledge.

Originally posted by Gideon
Neither did I, at first. But look closer:


The Chu'unthor, which was an old Jedi Order training facility that likely possessed archives of information.
Anything leftover from Palpatine's archives that Luke may or may not have found in the Imperial Palace once it was seized by the New Republic
The Falanassi? Fallanassi? Whatever, you know what I mean.
A couple of other Force-wielding cults visited every now and then.
The possible Great Holocron and Telos Holocron; he had three years to study those.


That's a lot of information. Now I understand that the Emperor had a lot, too, but there's no reason to conclude that there is any great disparity in terms of Force knowledge.

Yea you're definitely transparent Gideon lol.

Whatever, man. Like I said, I get how you'd think it would be stupid to assume this at first, but when you sit down and think about the amount of information Luke probably got from that, it's mind-boggling.

Originally posted by Gideon
Whatever, man. Like I said, I get how you'd think it would be stupid to assume this at first, but when you sit down and think about the amount of information Luke probably got from that, it's mind-boggling.

Lol... A facepalm would be in order if you were serious.

I can't believe he didn't include Jacen's transformation in to a Sith as a knowledge contributor. Declaration of your allegiance grants immediate power.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Lol.. You're not doing this in the right thread Gideon. He's not going to be viewing this one.

Oh, I am. There is nothing better than a teenager on an ego trip. Haven't seen much of that for entertainment purpose since watching Beverly Hills, 92010 in the 90s. Where's my popcorn?

At the risk of getting into the weeds (which is actually the whole point!), I think knowledge of the Force, in addition to potential and experience all play significant roles.

I think experience is the biggest contributor, WHEN the Force-wielders are EQUALLY matched in potential (Clearly, when Anakin killed Dooku in ROTS, experience didn't mean squat for Dooku).

If Caedus and Luke Skywalker have the same Force potential (same bloodline), AND they have access to the same knowledge (and one could argue that Jacen had special knowledge during his five year journey after the Vong War, knowledge that Luke NEVER acquired), how is it that LOTF Caedus is nowhere near as strong as LOTF Luke was?

I'm not saying Caedus can't hold his own (which he did, against Luke), but he still lost to him at the end of the day, and was clearly not yet as powerful as Luke (Caedus admitted that Luke was the greatest lightsaber swordsman to have ever lived! - yes that is the character's opinion, but coming from Caedus, that is huge).

So it has to be experience, which is why Sidious could potentially have an upper hand. But this could be offset by Caedus dramatically higher potential than Sidious could ever hope for.

Originally posted by SWFan4Life
If Caedus and Luke Skywalker have the same Force potential (same bloodline), AND they have access to the same knowledge (and one could argue that Jacen had special knowledge during his five year journey after the Vong War, knowledge that Luke NEVER acquired), how is it that LOTF Caedus is nowhere near as strong as LOTF Luke was?


*hissssss*

Take away your logical reasoning from this place. It's not wanted here. Next thing you do is trying to tell us that there is something illogical said in the Bible, a book which can never ever be wrong because it's the incarnation of gospel and contains the one and only truth. Damn atheist. Now go and kill your neighbour if he works on Saturday.

*hissssss*

Originally posted by Borbarad
*hissssss*

Take away your logical reasoning from this place. It's not wanted here. Next thing you do is trying to tell us that there is something illogical said in the Bible, a book which can never ever be wrong because it's the incarnation of gospel and contains the one and only truth. Damn atheist. Now go and kill your neighbour if he works on Saturday.

*hissssss*

Isn't that so much better than claiming the concept of God is illogical, and then trying to use logic and reason to describe God and explain God's actions?

Clearly, God is Truth, with a capital T! God directed the authors to write the Bible, and so you know it's true. Right? Right?!

Nah, instead of logic, let's just argue who's more powerful based on looks? Or should it be the color of the lightsaber?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Isn't that so much better than claiming the concept of God is illogical, and then trying to use logic and reason to describe God and explain God's actions?

Well. It certainly sounds like a lot of fun, since it gives you all kinds of good reasons to get rid of people you don't like, just because they work on the wrong day or eat the wrong stuff. I mean, hey, you don't even have to construct a complex philosophy that labels member of certain ethical groups "subhuman" in order to kill them. You just do it. "Kill them all. For the Lord knoweth them that are His", right? Music to the ears of every German like myself...


Originally posted by SWFan4Life
Nah, instead of logic, let's just argue who's more powerful based on looks? Or should it be the color of the lightsaber?

Why argue at all? We simply let Gideon decide. He's the smartest of us all, well versed in literature interpretation and philosophy alike. He never makes mistakes and always sticks to objective logic and reason, instead of constructing biased arguments like we, the feeble minded fools, often do.

Even his first name, Jessiah, sounds like Messiah - it's almost the same. We should simply quit thinking and worship Gideon instead. That would spare us all a lot of trouble.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Well. It certainly sounds like a lot of fun, since it gives you all kinds of good reasons to get rid of people you don't like, just because they work on the wrong day or eat the wrong stuff. I mean, hey, you don't even have to construct a complex philosophy that labels member of certain ethical groups "subhuman" in order to kill them. You just do it. "Kill them all. For the Lord knoweth them that are His", right? Music to the ears of every German like myself...

Oh no, I prefer to claim God doesn't exist so I can incorporate moral relativism into my daily life which gives me the excuse to do whatever the hell I want, and justify it anyway I want. Then again, the greatest tragedy of religion you can give me is the Crusades, while the greatest tragedy of secularism I can give you would be Stalin and the 50 million deaths he was responsible, but who am I to argue.





Or you can stop being so transparently insecure with all of your sarcasm and egocentrism. You're definitely smart but the level of insecurity you exhibit is just unhealthy.

Or you two can just go to one of the very few states that allow same sex marriages and just seal the deal.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Oh no, I prefer to claim God doesn't exist so I can incorporate moral relativism into my daily life which gives me the excuse to do whatever the hell I want, and justify it anyway I want. Then again, the greatest tragedy of religion you can give me is the Crusades, while the greatest tragedy of dogmatism I can give you would be Stalin and the 20 million deaths he was responsible, but who am I to argue.

Fixed it for you.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Oh no, I prefer to claim God doesn't exist so I can incorporate moral relativism into my daily life which gives me the excuse to do whatever the hell I want, and justify it anyway I want. Then again, the greatest tragedy of religion you can give me is the Crusades, while the greatest tragedy of secularism I can give you would be Stalin and the 50 million deaths he was responsible, but who am I to argue.

I didn't know that agnosticism or atheism instantly turn you into a moral relativist. Tell me more. And the greatest tragedy of "religion" (or rather than that: dogmatism) appears to be the Conquista which just wiped 90 million people on the American continent from existance. The Crusades with another (max.) 20 million victims, the hunt on herectics and witches (up to 10 million victims) and the constant progroms against the Jews (several million victims) and the massacres in states like Ruanda (only a few hundred thousand victims) are almost insignificant.



But it's just so much fun...



I think our girlfriends wouldn't like that and resort to acts of female violence that we don't want to experience first hand. Thus, I think, we leave the male love couple part to yourself and Hewhoknowsall.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I didn't know that agnosticism or atheism instantly turn you into a moral relativist. Tell me more. And the greatest tragedy of "religion" (or rather than that: dogmatism) appears to be the Conquista which just wiped 90 million people on the American continent from existance. The Crusades with another (max.) 20 million victims, the hunt on herectics and witches (up to 10 million victims) and the constant progroms against the Jews (several million victims) and the massacres in states like Ruanda (only a few hundred thousand victims) are almost insignificant.



But it's just so much fun...



I think our girlfriends wouldn't like that and resort to acts of female violence that we don't want to experience first hand. Thus, I think, we leave the male love couple part to yourself and Hewhoknowsall. Nail I would love to know where you get your numbers.

Dogmatism? I didn't realize that was the new rationalization of the atheists. Damn I need to tell my parents and grandparents that they were totally wrong.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Dogmatism? I didn't realize that was the new rationalization of the atheists. Damn I need to tell my parents and grandparents that they were totally wrong. BTW nail there is no need to pretend you have a girlfriend(unless you do). BTW Nai the death toll for the Crusades was at most, 2 million. I love the rationalizations though, almost makes me think you're religious.

So, Darth Sidious v Darth Caedus, who would win?

Worth noting is atheism is not a belief, it's a category, like theism. Atheism contains beliefs like secular humanism (responsible for, I belief, no massacres ever) and countless more. Theism contains beliefs like Christianity, Wicca, etc.. Some beliefs can cross the line- there is both theistic and atheistic Buddhism, for example.

http://blogofowned.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/owned9wz.jpg

The problem with those numbers Nai, is you're guesstimating favorably for your argument. The estimated death toll for the Crusades was 2 million people, which is very reasonable I might add. I'll do more specific research on the Conquista because I've never heard those numbers you're throwing out. Also, what sources do you have for the numbers of the Albigensian Crusade?

Can you guys continue this argument elsewhere?? Why did this post have to turn into atheism v religion? Take it somewhere else.

I can look through my various books Nai, but the estimates range from 1 million to 5 million at best..

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#European

http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/the_battle_over_the_crusades/