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when iroh was asked to kill the firelord it wasnt a question of if he could do it, it was a question of the ramifications of his deed. not to mention irohs other amazing feets including speedblitzes (while out of shape), peak human str or quite possibly superhuman, and probably the best MA and firebender in avatar


iroh (bloodlusted) vs aang

this is during the comet

1. no avatar state
2. avatar state

No Avatar State < Iroh < Avatar State, IMO

First off, are we excluding Aang's non-violent personalty? If this is a legit fight that Aang is trying win, Iroh gets thumped... and Aang wouldn't need the avatar state.

Originally posted by marwash22
First off, are we excluding Aang's non-violent personalty? If this is a legit fight that Aang is trying win, Iroh gets thumped... and Aang wouldn't need the avatar state. iroh > firelord and the firelord almost kicked his ass

Originally posted by marwash22
First off, are we excluding Aang's non-violent personalty? If this is a legit fight that Aang is trying win, Iroh gets thumped... and Aang wouldn't need the avatar state.

Personality is almost always taken into account in fights on these forums. Aang isn't blood-lusted in this fight (except when he's in the Avatar State), so he'll have those restrictions he had against Ozai.

That said, I don't know why people include Avatar State Aang in Aang threads. No one in the series can beat Avatar State Aang.

Originally posted by Q99
No Avatar State < Iroh < Avatar State, IMO

Same here.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That said, I don't know why people include Avatar State Aang in Aang threads. No one in the series can beat Avatar State Aang. iroh would have the greatest chance out of anyone IMO

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
iroh would have the greatest chance out of anyone IMO

He still wouldn't win though, not unless he manages to cheap-shot Aang like Azula did under Ba Sing Se.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
P
That said, I don't know why people include Avatar State Aang in Aang threads. No one in the series can beat Avatar State Aang.


Unless you start throwing in other Avatars

Aside from Roku, all we have are a few glimpses of what the others can do, not that that matters much since we're discussing the Avatar State.
In the Avatar State, Aang has the knowledge and experience of all the previous Avatars, and hence, can do whatever a previous Avatar was capable of. As he's the current Avatar, technically speaking, he's the most powerful one.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Aside from Roku, all we have are a few glimpses of what the others can do, not that that matters much since we're discussing the Avatar State.
In the Avatar State, Aang has the knowledge and experience of all the previous Avatars, and hence, can do whatever a previous Avatar was capable of. As he's the current Avatar, technically speaking, he's the most powerful one.

Yes, but he's got less physical power, and really, how much knowledge was added during the last few compared to all that beforehand?

I bet Kyoshi could take Roku, for example

shes got bigger feet

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, but he's got less physical power, and really, how much knowledge was added during the last few compared to all that beforehand?

I bet Kyoshi could take Roku, for example

It's like comparing 999 to 998. There's not much of a difference, but one number is greater than the other.

Roku's got Kyoshi's experience and everything, so yeah, at best, it would be a draw if they were both Fully Realized.
Kyoshi's the longest lived Avatar though: 238 years, dayum.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It's like comparing 999 to 998. There's not much of a difference, but one number is greater than the other.

Roku's got Kyoshi's experience and everything, so yeah, at best, it would be a draw if they were both Fully Realized.
Kyoshi's the longest lived Avatar though: 238 years, dayum. where did you find that information?

The entire premise of this question is severely flawed and tailored toward Iroh winning. Remove the personality restriction on Aang, and this isn't even a fight.

If Iroh gets to fight under the amplification of the comet and be enraged, then Aang should have his non-violent nature lifted from the equation... otherwise, this is just a platform for people to pump up Iroh.

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
where did you find that information?

It was 230 actually. My mistake.

The info is found in "Escape from the Spirit World."

Originally posted by marwash22
The entire premise of this question is severely flawed and tailored toward Iroh winning. Remove the personality restriction on Aang, and this isn't even a fight.

If Iroh gets to fight under the amplification of the comet and be enraged, then Aang should have his non-violent nature lifted from the equation... otherwise, this is just a platform for people to pump up Iroh.
If the personality restriction is removed, the question will still remain severely flawed and it will be tailored towards Aang winning.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It's like comparing 999 to 998. There's not much of a difference, but one number is greater than the other.

Roku's got Kyoshi's experience and everything, so yeah, at best, it would be a draw if they were both Fully Realized.
Kyoshi's the longest lived Avatar though: 238 years, dayum.

But there's still a different in attitudes and physical capabilities and such.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
If the personality restriction is removed, the question will still remain severely flawed and it will be tailored towards Aang winning. Touche! then, what's the point?

Iroh is probably the best firebender. He definitely can beat Aang (no avatar state) and he wont even need the comet amp to do that.

Originally posted by SamZED
Iroh is probably the best firebender. He definitely can beat Aang (no avatar state) and he wont even need the comet amp to do that. Seriously?

Did i miss something here and Aang isn't allowed to use the other elements during this fight? I'm not discounting Iroh, he's a beast, but i think people are underestimating Aang.

Iroh hasn't displayed anything to make me think he's on his brothers level really. He lacks the mobility or youth to stand in prolonged conflict with Aang like Ozai did.

@ Nephthys

Well, i dunno about that.

Iroh said himself that he could beat Ozai, so i would imagine his firebending is even more formidable than Ozai's. If this were a firebending fight, Iroh would win, but Aang is the avatar and there's no way Iroh can beat someone who uses all four elements.... no one can!

Originally posted by marwash22
Seriously?

Did i miss something here and Aang isn't allowed to use the other elements during this fight? I'm not discounting Iroh, he's a beast, but i think people are underestimating Aang. Sorry, should've said "imo" ofcourse its just my opinion but I believe Iroh would beat Aang in a fight. Im in no way understimating Aang, but Iroh got experience on his side. And mad firebending skills. I mean, remember how he pwned Azula and her soldiers?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Iroh hasn't displayed anything to make me think he's on his brothers level really. He lacks the mobility or youth to stand in prolonged conflict with Aang like Ozai did. iroh was basically superhuman at the end of the show. he broke out of his cell in prison w.o any bending. i think hes at the very least equal to ozai physically.

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
iroh was basically superhuman at the end of the show. he broke out of his cell in prison w.o any bending. i think hes at the very least equal to ozai physically. QFT Id put my money on Iroh if he fought Ozai.

damn right.

Zuko seemed to think Iroh could take him

I'd really like to see what they base that on. Becuase the last time either of them saw him fight was when he burnt off Zuko's face. I doubt either of knew what he was capable of.

have we seen Ozai fight without some sort of amp?

No, but he was alot more impressive with it than Iroh was.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd really like to see what they base that on. Becuase the last time either of them saw him fight was when he burnt off Zuko's face. I doubt either of knew what he was capable of. based on that iroh is ozais brother. they kinda grew up together

So did Zuko and Azula, and Zuko knew next to nothing about her, or at least not enough to stop her from mentally *****-slapping him at every turn.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, but he was alot more impressive with it than Iroh was. Granted Ozai was fighting for his life and Iroh was fighting lightweights but i tend to agree Ozai was more impressive

if aang wanted to kill iroh, he would win. he is a frikin prodigy at all the elements especially air. and he will gain power from the comet. iroh is a much better fire bender, but aang has much more on his side, plus he can fly, and we have not seen any proof that iroh can fly with his fire.

Originally posted by Q99
But there's still a different in attitudes and physical capabilities and such.

All that would help is prolonging the inevitable, which at best for Kyoshi, is a draw. Roku has his own experience and power in addition to that of Kyoshi's.
As for attitudes, I don't see much of a general difference. They are both willing to kill if necessary. Kyoshi is more open to killing, yes, but Roku will kill her as well, if he deems her a threat. Roku also has a Dragon 313.

Besides, we don't really know how agile either of them are.
Fire Nation individuals typically seem to be more agile than Earth Kingdom individuals.

As for Aang, barring the last appearance of him using the Avatar State, he's been ruthless; & he has experience in Energy Bending, as well as Tremor Sense, which none of the previous 4 Avatars are shown to have.

Roku's statement "I have mastered the elements a thousand times in a thousand lifetimes, and now I must do it once more" suggests that Mastering elements gets easier, and it also suggests that an Avatar has more control over the elements than the previous one does.

~ Also, I'd just like to point out that it is rather stupid trying to put one Avatar up against another .

Originally posted by marwash22
Touche! then, what's the point?

That there's no point in trying to debate what the fight would be like if the restrictions set by the OP were changed...until the TC decides to change it that is.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Iroh hasn't displayed anything to make me think he's on his brothers level really. He lacks the mobility or youth to stand in prolonged conflict with Aang like Ozai did.

Indeed. He's powerful, but even he expressed his doubts on whether he could actually beat Ozai.
Ozai was basically the second most powerful bender in the world when Sozin's Comet arrived, based on the power he displayed.

Granted, a Lightning Redirection would end the fight, but Ozai should know that Iroh can do that, so he won't use Lightning.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, but he was alot more impressive with it than Iroh was. flawed logic.

You can't properly judge the skill level of Iroh and Ozai based on how they fought under the comet amp.

Ozai... fought the avatar!
Iroh... fought some random dudes.

I'm sure Iroh would have flexed some serious muscle if the people he was up against were of any real consequence.

2>1.

Its pure speculation that Iroh would have done as well as Ozai. Ozai, on account of having the better feats would win imo.

Ozai fought aang under the power of the comet
I doubt he would have done half as well any other time

Why do you continue to ignore the fact that Iroh said himself that he could beat Ozai? Iroh has never come off as a liar or a braggart so i think we must take him at his word.

Actually he doubted he could iirc. Plus he could just have been wrong.

Originally posted by marwash22
Why do you continue to ignore the fact that Iroh said himself that he could beat Ozai? Iroh has never come off as a liar or a braggart so i think we must take him at his word.

He states, and I quote "Even if I did defeat Ozai, and I don't know that I could..."

How is that Iroh saying he could beat Ozai? He never states that. What he does state is that he doesn't know if he could beat Ozai.

Iroh's only real advantage over Ozai is that he can redirect lightning, which Ozai probably knows since he saw Zuko do it.

and superhuman str and speedblitz

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He states, and I quote "Even if I did defeat Ozai, and I don't know that I could..."

How is that Iroh saying he could beat Ozai? He never states that. What he does state is that he doesn't know if he could beat Ozai.

Iroh's only real advantage over Ozai is that he can redirect lightning, which Ozai probably knows since he saw Zuko do it. My mistake, i was wrong!

However, the only thing that has done, is solidified my point that Iroh doesn't stand a chance against Aang... which is what this thread is about.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He states, and I quote "Even if I did defeat Ozai, and I don't know that I could..."


Iroh's only real advantage over Ozai is that he can redirect lightning, which Ozai probably knows since he saw Zuko do it.

The way I see that, is that Iroh knew he'd been lazy for a while, and he was much older than Ozai, who stayed in top physical shape the entire series. He didn't know if he was up to par at the moment...plus nobody wants to go up against a guy voiced by Mark Hamill, that's bad for business.


And I doubt Ozai could redirect lightning, even if he saw Zuko do it, he doesn't know the process or prerequisites, if he tried it could kill him like it almost did Zuko.

Originally posted by KingD19
The way I see that, is that Iroh knew he'd been lazy for a while, and he was much older than Ozai, who stayed in top physical shape the entire series. He didn't know if he was up to par at the moment...plus nobody wants to go up against a guy voiced by Mark Hamill, that's bad for business.


And I doubt Ozai could redirect lightning, even if he saw Zuko do it, he doesn't know the process or prerequisites, if he tried it could kill him like it almost did Zuko. he didn't mean that Ozai could redirect lightning; he meant that since he saw Zuko do it against him, it would be obvious that Iroh is the one who taught him the technique. Therefore, the only surprise or edge Iroh would have in fight with Ozai, is no longer a surprise.

Ahhh, still, it would make him think twice about using lightning.

And that means Iroh can kill Ozai with ligning while Ozai can't do the same to Iroh. We've never seen Ozai do anything impressive witout the comet amp so those feats cant be used. Heck, Zuko almost killed Ozai(by surprise but still).

Originally posted by SamZED
And that means Iroh can kill Ozai with ligning while Ozai can't do the same to Iroh. We've never seen Ozai do anything impressive witout the comet amp so those feats cant be used. Heck, Zuko almost killed Ozai(by surprise but still).

Lightning is still avoidable. Aang demonstrates that. Heck, Zuko intercepts lightning shot by Azula.
While flying, Ozai was nearly as fast, if not as fast as Avatar State Aang.

Originally posted by marwash22
My mistake, i was wrong!

However, the only thing that has done, is solidified my point that Iroh doesn't stand a chance against Aang... which is what this thread is about.


For the most part, yes. Avatar State Aang would stomp Iroh.
Aang with his personality intact is still in Aang's favour IMO, as Aang wouldn't have to kill Iroh to defeat Iroh.
The situation would be different. The only reason Aang didn't want to kill Ozai is because he knew he would have to kill him in order to end the war; in other words, there was no other way to end it, at least not until he decided to Energy Bend.

That's not the case in this fight. Aang doesn't have to kill Iroh to defeat him.

Originally posted by KingD19
The way I see that, is that Iroh knew he'd been lazy for a while, and he was much older than Ozai, who stayed in top physical shape the entire series. He didn't know if he was up to par at the moment...plus nobody wants to go up against a guy voiced by Mark Hamill, that's bad for business.


And I doubt Ozai could redirect lightning, even if he saw Zuko do it, he doesn't know the process or prerequisites, if he tried it could kill him like it almost did Zuko.

Occam's Razor man!

As for him being up to par, I think his firebending was always up to par, it was just his physical shape that wasn't. Post-Day of the Black Sun, that's no longer an issue.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Lightning is still avoidable. Aang demonstrates that. Heck, Zuko intercepts lightning shot by Azula.
While flying, Ozai was nearly as fast, if not as fast as Avatar State Aang.
Yes but only because of the comet amp. We dont know if he can fly at all without it. Sure the lightning can be dodged but thats one heck of advantage.

It's highly likely that Ozai didn't just come up with that propulsion move on the fly and has done it in the past. Besides, we have seen Azula use propulsion in the past... without an amp. It's completely within logic to assume that the Firelord is better at it than his teenage daughter. He may not be able to fly as fast, but I'm betting he can still do it.

Agreed. but Azula couldnt really fly. She could either glide slightly above the ground ot make quick bursts using fire and covering some distance. I think that's what Ozai could do as well. It's just flying is the next step.

Originally posted by SamZED
Yes but only because of the comet amp. We dont know if he can fly at all without it. Sure the lightning can be dodged but thats one heck of advantage.

I was under the impression that we were using them when Sozin's Comet was around? Since that's the only time we are shown Ozai fighting anyway.

Azula was able to move herself through the air when not under the comet. Ozai is a better Firebender and demonstrated more raw power than Azula did.

He only achieved true flight because of the comet, otherwise he's like Azula, jump jets and boosts. The sheer output of the flames should have made it clear that only during the comet could he do that.

And Iroh's my boy(RIP Mako), but Aang has too much going for him all at once. Earthbending, Metalbending, Airbending, Firebeding, Waterbending, Energybending, and the ability to access the Avatar State at will? Too much for any one person, White Lotus or not.

Originally posted by KingD19
He only achieved true flight because of the comet, otherwise he's like Azula, jump jets and boosts. you have no proof to back up that assertion. The final episode of the show is the one and only time we see Ozai fight... except for that one little exchange with Zuko during the eclipse.

You don't think it's likely that if Azula can glide a foot or so off the ground with ease... her father, who is twice her age, has tons more experience and who is overall just more powerful, can fly? The level of maneuverability and precision he used in that fight should be a clear indicator that he has practiced propulsion on that level without the comet amp.

All the comet did was allow him to do it for a longer period of time and at a greater intensity.

If skilled Fire Benders could fly....why didn't they do it throughout the entire series? Iroh, Jeong-Jeong, Admiral Zhao, Azula, Zuko, Ozai, etc....?

Originally posted by KingD19
If skilled Fire Benders could fly....why didn't they do it throughout the entire series? Iroh, Jeong-Jeong, Admiral Zhao, Azula, Zuko, Ozai, etc....? On a production level... having people use propulsion on that level all throughout the series would have been counterproductive to the developments of the final battle between Aang and Ozai.

Iroh - Please inform me of a time where the opportunity to showcase that particular skill presented itself? Why would he just do it for no reason?

Jeong Jeong - He DID use it. During the lotus battle in Ba Sing Se. You have kinda burned yourself by bringing his name up. In your estimation, both Jeong Jeong and Ozai figured "Hmmm, the comet is boosting my powers, why not try flying for the first time in my life". All the people who are considered masters of firebending in the show, can use propulsion on that level. Jeong Jeong never did it before, because pre-Ba Sing Se, we had never seen him fight.

Admiral Zhoa - He's not even close to being a master, he got owned by Zuko. Also, it has been said explicitly, that all he ever bothered to learn is how to inflict damage... propulsion takes technique and discipline, something he isn't interested in.

Azula - Not skilled enough/ The extent of her propulsion power, as i already pointed out, is getting a foot or so off the ground.

Zuko - see Azula

Ozai - Have you been paying attention? The fight with Aang is the only time in the entire series that he participated in battle. It would have made no sense to have him use propulsion for no reason.

Iroh doesn't ever demonstrate the ability, even when under Sozin's Comet.

Azula merely uses it for propulsion. Even under the comet, most of what she did was propel herself, and she was mostly a few inches off the ground. She never demonstrated the level of movement that Ozai did.
Heck, when flying, she was about as fast as Katara was surfing.

Zhao? A skilled firebender laugh? Sure, by Book 1 standards.
Once Azula was introduced, and by Zuko's level from CoD-onwards, he is nothing more than an upgraded version of a regular Fire Soldier.

Zuko doesn't use the skill at all in his fight with Azula.

Jeong-Jeong's only appearance apart from the Sozin's Comet finale, was an episode in Book 1. Not to mention, what he did was hover and move a bit. That's a lot less strenuous and taxing than what Ozai was doing.

Ozai? Srsly? You're wondering why he couldn't fly throughout the entire series when he's only shown Fire-Bending in the last episode?

~ We can't really discuss Ozai when not under the comet amp.

But there's really no evidence that Ozai (or any other firebender for that matter) can fly under normal conditions. If we say that he can its gonna be an assumption. Also Iroh had plenty of opportunities to demonstate the ability to fly using fire bending.

Originally posted by SamZED
But there's really no evidence that Ozai (or any other firebender for that matter) can fly under normal conditions. If we say that he can its gonna be an assumption. Also Iroh had plenty of opportunities to demonstate the ability to fly using fire bending. Flawed logic. Conversely, there is no proof that master firebenders could not preform the feat pre-comet. However, given that two different people preformed the act with a high level of expertise, one can infer that they had previous experience doing so.

Originally posted by SamZED
But there's really no evidence that Ozai (or any other firebender for that matter) can fly under normal conditions. If we say that he can its gonna be an assumption. Also Iroh had plenty of opportunities to demonstate the ability to fly using fire bending.

Obviously they wouldn't be able to fly like Ozai did in the finale. That much is obvious.
Flying itself though is something someone powerful enough can do. Like Marwash said, Ozai showed a lot of expertise while flying which suggests experience. He doesn't have an Avatar State where knowledge simply comes to him. Zuko was also under the amp, yet he never demonstrates flying.

Maybe Iroh isn't someone who likes to fly. He was never in a situation where the need to fly was necessary, in other words, a situation which he couldn't control with his normal firebending and stuff. Besides, he seems to hold a passive approach to Firebending, so an aggro move like propelling/flying seems out of the ordinary for him.

~ This is all still useless though. We can't use Ozai in a fight unless he's under the Comet.
While it's clear that he's the most powerful Firebender currently alive, barring Avatar State Aang and perhaps Iroh, we don't know just how powerful he is when not amped by the comet.

^Agreed.Also Iroh is not the kind of person who'd go all out with the new power just because he got it all of a sudden.


Originally posted by marwash22
Flawed logic. Conversely, there is no proof that master firebenders could not preform the feat pre-comet. However, given that two different people preformed the act with a high level of expertise, one can infer that they had previous experience doing so. Actually that^ is flawed logic. There's no proof that they CAN do it so we'll have to assume that they can't untill proven otherwise. You can't ask for proofs that they can NOT do something. Going by that logic- there's no proof that Iroh CAN'T burn the whole planet with a snap of his fingers, doesnt mean we'll have to assume that he can.

Originally posted by SamZED
There's no proof that they CAN do it so we'll have to assume that they can't untill proven otherwise. You can't ask for proofs that they can NOT do something. Going by that logic- there's no proof that Iroh CAN'T burn the whole planet with a snap of his fingers, doesnt mean we'll have to assume that he can. That is quite possibly, the dumbest thing i have ever read.

There is sufficient evidence to support my assertion; that evidence being... "two different people preformed the act with a high level of expertise". Would you have us believe that if the Wright brothers never created three-axis control, modern engineers would still have automatically known how to create an f15? Point is, it's only logical to assume Ozai and Jeong didn't just wake up on the day of the comet and think to themselves "I think I'll try flying today".

Your concomitance makes absolutely no sense; because unlike the conclusion i came to, there is absolutely nothing you can use as a basis to support your hypothesis. Basically, to counter my point, you used a very unintelligible form of nonparametric inference. In laymen terms, you're just makin' shyt up.

Are you familiar with the principles of an known unknown? That is what your statement is; my statement has at least a base in which logical determination can be built upon, yours is pure conjecture.

DP, where is it ever stated that Ozai knew about Iroh's technique? From the way he explained it to Zuko, it was something he developed some time after his active participation in the Fire Nation campaign. I can't imagine Ozai would have been paying much attention to Iroh at that point.

Originally posted by XanatosForever
DP, where is it ever stated that Ozai knew about Iroh's technique? From the way he explained it to Zuko, it was something he developed some time after his active participation in the Fire Nation campaign. I can't imagine Ozai would have been paying much attention to Iroh at that point. It was never stated and i don't think anyone has claimed that it has been. I think we all just came to the conclusion that, since Ozai saw Zuko use it, he would have to figure Iroh was the one who taught it. Ozai doesn't think very highly of his son, so i doubt he would assume Zuko came up with it by himself.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by marwash22
That is quite possibly, the dumbest thing i have ever read.

There is sufficient evidence to support my assertion; that evidence being... "two different people preformed the act with a high level of expertise". Would you have us believe that if the Wright brothers never created three-axis control, modern engineers would still have automatically known how to create an f15? Point is, it's only logical to assume Ozai and Jeong didn't just wake up on the day of the comet and think to themselves "I think I'll try flying today".

Your concomitance makes absolutely no sense; because unlike the conclusion i came to, there is absolutely nothing you can use as a basis to support your hypothesis. Basically, to counter my point, you used a very unintelligible form of nonparametric inference. In laymen terms, you're just makin' shyt up.

Are you familiar with the principles of an known unknown? That is what your statement is; my statement has at least a base in which logical determination can be built upon, yours is pure conjecture. Actually your theory is retardeed. Mine is based on a simple FACT, that noone has EVER displayed that ability without the POWER AMP. All you need to know. Anythig beyond that is your speculation. While you're asking me to PROVE a NEGATIVE and basing your theory on an assumption. Here's your logic - "Prove that Aang can't shoot monkeys out of his ass! What? He's never tried that before? Well that proves he can!"

i refuse to debate an idiot.

Yeah, reported.

lol

SamZED: "I can't win a debate logically, so I shall report people for no reason".

get a life.

Apperantly ignoring posts and calling someone an idiot over the internet = winning the debate "logically" in
marwash22's book.


I'll put this simplier. Spare me your dumb speculation and show proofs that Ozai or any other firebender can fly under normal conditions without the amp or stfu and gtfo.

Originally posted by SamZED
Apperantly ignoring posts and calling someone an idiot over the internet = winning the debate "logically" in
marwash22's book.


I'll put this simplier. Spare me your dumb speculation and show proofs that Ozai or any other firebender can fly under normal conditions without the amp or stfu and gtfo.

There is no proof, but Ozai's expertise suggests that he can either fly or fly to some extent when not under the comet amp. It's bound to be greater than Azula's capabilities when not under the comet (propulsion), that much is obvious.

Originally posted by XanatosForever
DP, where is it ever stated that Ozai knew about Iroh's technique? From the way he explained it to Zuko, it was something he developed some time after his active participation in the Fire Nation campaign. I can't imagine Ozai would have been paying much attention to Iroh at that point. Originally posted by XanatosForever
Fair enough.

Pretty much.

Also, if you think about it, Sozin's Heat/Smoke redirection is a lot like Lightning redirection.
So it's possible Sozin applied Water Bending principles to his technique as well, and Iroh finalized Lightning Redirection after studying Sozin's Heat Redirection.

Im pretty sure Iroh would break Aang even if Aang was using all the four elements... I mean come on Ozai was kicking Aang's ass that Aang had to hide in a rock, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Aang is weak or anything, I'm just saying if Iroh is more powerful than Ozai (which i think he is IMO) and Ozai is kicking Aang's ass while he uses all four elements... Aang is screwed if he faces Iroh without the Avatar State. And as for the AS, I'm sure Roku could beat Aang if they are both in the AS. Plus i know Ozai faced Aang during the comet which boosted his firebending skills but I think even without the comet Ozai MIGHT be able to put up a good fight but not win. But Iroh would definitely kick Aang's ass with or without the comet.

Originally posted by Q99
No Avatar State < Iroh < Avatar State, IMO

Agree with this. Regular Aang gets worked by iroh. Iroh punked Azulah who is near or on par with the firelord iirc.

Avatar state Aang stomps everyone.

A good case could be made for Aang since he would have beat Ozai without Avatar State had he not been such a wimp and killed the guy.

^ Yeah but I think iroh owns Ozai.

Iroh would disagree with you. He was very doubtful about being able to defeat Ozai. As am I really. Iroh is cool but his feats are wanting. He has the power but really seems to lack mobility that Ozai had.

If anything, I'd say he lacked the desire more than skill. He wasn't a cut throat like Ozai.

IMO he's too old to be leaping around and stuff. I know he got really buff and everything but that doesn't make him less ancient. And he's never flown around like Ozai and Azula have (I think). Aang has a significant mobility advantage on him.

Originally posted by socool8520
If anything, I'd say he lacked the desire more than skill. He wasn't a cut throat like Ozai.

Well that's an opinion. Iroh does say that he doesn't know if he can beat him. That isn't a full on no but it's definitely not a yes. And based on showings, I would definitely say no.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
A good case could be made for Aang since he would have beat Ozai without Avatar State had he not been such a wimp and killed the guy.

In all fairness, he could have won not because he was a better/more powerful bender, but because he knew how to return a one-hit-kill attack. But yeah, his personality hampered him there.

Originally posted by socool8520
Agree with this. Regular Aang gets worked by iroh. Iroh punked Azulah who is near or on par with the firelord iirc.


She really isn't. Far better villain though.

End of series Aang couldn't do jack to Azula WITHOUT firebending. Iroh isn't as agile but Aang won't do crap against a bloodlusted Iroh.

Aang is mediocre at best at firebending and earthbending. Water bending probably isn't even mastered since he can't heal. Korra was able to do that right off the bat.

Iroh in his prime would stomp. Old buff Iroh wins 7/10, and Iroh loses badly to hax state.

It was outright stated that Iroh has always been Ozai's superior, and they even asked Iroh to kill him, and the only reason he refused was because Ozai is his brother. That's Iroh when he's out of shape. If Iroh was training, he could probably put up a great fight against avatar state Aang, considering his raw strength alone without bending allowed him to one-hit several of the best fire nation guards who all had weapons, and break thick steel bars like the were plastic sporks.

Aang was getting stomped by the fire lord until he went avatar state. Iroh could shit stomp Aang with the comet, and still beat him solidly without it.

When was it stated?

I don't know the specific episode, but it was when the members of the white lotus were conversing with Katara, Sokka, etc.(but no Aang), and someone said that Iroh was much stronger than Ozai, so he should kill him, but Iroh declined, saying it would be seen as a killing for desire of power, and the only one who would be able to kill him without causing more distrust among nations was the avatar.

Cannot picture them fighting but...

Aang in both cases because he can bend all four elements and is no joke of a fighter.

IMO, Azula could probably take Iroh down without the element of surprise. Aang has beat her before so I consider him to be good enough to take on Iroh, despite the Dragon of the West reputation he had. Then again, if Aang wasn't the Avatar, Iroh would stomp

Once aang turns into the avatar state its over

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I don't know the specific episode, but it was when the members of the white lotus were conversing with Katara, Sokka, etc.(but no Aang), and someone said that Iroh was much stronger than Ozai, so he should kill him, but Iroh declined, saying it would be seen as a killing for desire of power, and the only one who would be able to kill him without causing more distrust among nations was the avatar.

Iroh claims that beating Ozai is a big if.

Originally posted by therapist1
Cannot picture them fighting but...

Aang in both cases because he can bend all four elements and is no joke of a fighter.

IMO, Azula could probably take Iroh down without the element of surprise. Aang has beat her before so I consider him to be good enough to take on Iroh, despite the Dragon of the West reputation he had. Then again, if Aang wasn't the Avatar, Iroh would stomp

I do not see Azula beating Iroh any time soon.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I do not see Azula beating Iroh any time soon.

I can understand that. That is what I love about the Avatar series is that unless we see the characters fight, it is hard to say without a little bias because they all basically have the same powers but even that doesn't put any one at an advantage unless you are the Avatar. I only say Azula because...I simply wouldn't put it past her. It's not like Iroh regularly trains to become the greatest firebender ever. And if they were of closer age and experience, I think Azula would stomp. She is too obsessed with power, and he, lovably, with tea.

Originally posted by therapist1
I can understand that. That is what I love about the Avatar series is that unless we see the characters fight, it is hard to say without a little bias because they all basically have the same powers but even that doesn't put any one at an advantage unless you are the Avatar. I only say Azula because...I simply wouldn't put it past her. It's not like Iroh regularly trains to become the greatest firebender ever. And if they were of closer age and experience, I think Azula would stomp. She is too obsessed with power, and he, lovably, with tea.

Well yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that Iroh would easily beat Azula if they were to fight in the series. As the OP stated, he could have beaten Ozai if he wanted to. Azula lost to Zuko. Ozai was vastly superior to every firebender other than Iroh.

It's really simple, honestly. Aang without Avatar state lost to Ozai. Aang with avatar state is the most powerful character in the series by far.