Lady Shiva, Cheshire, and Elektra vs Karate Kid

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Konton
Dojo setting.

Q99
This probably isn't going to be the most popular answer, but I'd say the trio. When fighting against other martial artists, KK is the best but not as absolutely overpowering as his performance against metas suggests (He's like top tier+, then add in a selection of anti-meta moves that don't help as much against other fighters), and Shiva and Elektra are both *beasts*. Cheshire less-so, but she has the poison thing to make her dangerous.

Prep-Man
If Val brings his A game, I'm betting my money on him. He's been trained by White Crane, who is one of the best grandmasters in comics.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Q99
This probably isn't going to be the most popular answer, but I'd say the trio. When fighting against other martial artists, KK is the best but not as absolutely overpowering as his performance against metas suggests (He's like top tier+, then add in a selection of anti-meta moves that don't help as much against other fighters), and Shiva and Elektra are both *beasts*. Cheshire less-so, but she has the poison thing to make her dangerous.

Which "martial artists" are you talking about? Pre-Crisis Val literally DOMINATED his nemesis (who was trained by the same master). Black Tiger came back a better fighter and still got his but whipped. If we're talking about Val who just woke up from a COMA and still thought he was a villain controlled by Starro STILL took Batman to school. Grabbed his utility belt, which NOBODY has ever done and again, this is while Val still thought he was a villain working for someone else.

Q99
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Which "martial artists" are you talking about? Pre-Crisis Val literally DOMINATED his nemesis (who was trained by the same master). Black Tiger came back a better fighter and still got his but whipped. If we're talking about Val who just woke up from a COMA and still thought he was a villain controlled by Starro STILL took Batman to school. Grabbed his utility belt, which NOBODY has ever done and again, this is while Val still thought he was a villain working for someone else.

Still, it was an actual fight, and we're talking three-on-one here.

"Not as absolutely overpowering" doesn't mean he's not still the best without question, just that other martial arts can actually fight him him.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Q99
Still, it was an actual fight, and we're talking three-on-one here.

"Not as absolutely overpowering" doesn't mean he's not still the best without question, just that other martial arts can actually fight him him.

A handicapped fight, where Val lost his identity. Not in his right mind and still made Batman the inferior. Give Val (Pre-Crisis) real health, he'd school the 3 above. It's nothing he hasn't seen before.

Q99
Originally posted by Prep-Man
A handicapped fight, where Val lost his identity. Not in his right mind and still made Batman the inferior.

Yes, but the handicap shouldn't affect his fighting skills *that* much (his reflexes'd be intact), and it's not just two slightly better than Batman people plus a third pretty good one, it's having to do all three at the same time. He only has the same number of limbs as he had against Batman, and ganging up in general is more than an additive bonus, it also increases the effectiveness of each opponent as they take advantage of the distraction their fellows bring and help defend each other.

Even if he's twice as good in his right mind, he'd still lose to a three-on-one against this crew.



I don't think he's fought three people this good all at the same time.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Q99
Yes, but the handicap shouldn't affect his fighting skills *that* much (his reflexes'd be intact), and it's not just two slightly better than Batman people plus a third pretty good one, it's having to do all three at the same time. He only has the same number of limbs as he had against Batman, and ganging up in general is more than an additive bonus, it also increases the effectiveness of each opponent as they take advantage of the distraction their fellows bring and help defend each other.

Even if he's twice as good in his right mind, he'd still lose to a three-on-one against this crew.



I don't think he's fought three people this good all at the same time.

In his RIGHT mind, he made Black Tiger look like a fool. BT >>> Batman.

Made Black Mace look like a child MC >>> Shiva.

Made Emerald Empress look like nothing. And Emerald Empress>>> Shiva as well. Emerald Empress at a time was the best assassin in the UNIVERSE.

Also fought an army of the toughest criminals in the universe at once.

And fought the Fatal Five by himself.

Again FF>>> the 3 listed above.

srankmissingnin
The team takes 3-boot Val handedly. Elektra, and possibly Shiva could arguably do it on their own.

Lunacyde
Depends which version of KK we are talking about. At his weakest he loses, at his best he wins.

Prep-Man
Zero hour and PC Val were the best. 3boot could handle anyone of them, but not all 3.

Tazer
Yo.

it would be interesting to see by how much, if *any*, the trios chance increase if Cheshire manages to scratch Val.....




Tazer

cdtm
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Which "martial artists" are you talking about? Pre-Crisis Val literally DOMINATED his nemesis (who was trained by the same master). Black Tiger came back a better fighter and still got his but whipped. If we're talking about Val who just woke up from a COMA and still thought he was a villain controlled by Starro STILL took Batman to school. Grabbed his utility belt, which NOBODY has ever done and again, this is while Val still thought he was a villain working for someone else.

Not to mention, Val has non combat feats that are so blatantly out of street levelers league, it makes it pretty obvious the only reason Batman wasn't killed on the first attack is heavy duty PIS...

Pre Crisis feats include everything from shattering a thrown axe, karate chopping tanks in half, to making his own little earthquake with a stomp.. Post crisis feats are no less impressive, such as when he cleared untold tons of snow burying a building in a single punch...

When Batman was being a dick to Val, I was wishing Solomon Grundy, Deathstroke, or Prometheus would come out of nowhere and rush Bats and find themselves on a casual one chop KO. Or at least perform a feat worthy of Superman.

Than see the look on Bats face.

Q99
Originally posted by Prep-Man
In his RIGHT mind, he made Black Tiger look like a fool. BT >>> Batman.

Made Black Mace look like a child MC >>> Shiva.

Made Emerald Empress look like nothing. And Emerald Empress>>> Shiva as well. Emerald Empress at a time was the best assassin in the UNIVERSE.


All solo fights, I note.

Fighting multiple coordinated top-tier martial artists (one with powers and weapons) is tougher than fighting one uber-tier martial artist.

This trio working together would I feel handle any of those fights solidly.




Dangerous criminals, sure, but not so individually skilled martial artists. Beating mobs is a lot different than fighting top tiers.

Also, if we're talking the Reboot KK when that happened, they beat him up the first go, but only when he recovered his focus and was more mentally prepared did he handle them.



Avoid getting killed by the Five and inflict some minor damage, sure. Hardly a *martial arts* fight, though.

cdtm
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Zero hour and PC Val were the best. 3boot could handle anyone of them, but not all 3.

Isn't 3boot the one who schooled Ultra Boy?

I think he could handle all three too.

Q99
Originally posted by cdtm
Isn't 3boot the one who schooled Ultra Boy?

I think he could handle all three too.

He 'schooled' him by using UB's own carelessness against him when UB rushed him. Throwing around someone of that strength who is using little fighting skill isn't all that impressive, Shiva or Elektra could do that too.



Eh, like I said, I knew my take wouldn't be popular, but performance against high-powereds does not equal similar stompage against handling *multiple* highly skilled foes at once.

cdtm
Originally posted by Q99
All solo fights, I note.

Fighting multiple coordinated top-tier martial artists (one with powers and weapons) is tougher than fighting one uber-tier martial artist.

This trio working together would I feel handle any of those fights solidly.




Dangerous criminals, sure, but not so individually skilled martial artists. Beating mobs is a lot different than fighting top tiers.




Avoid getting killed by the Five and inflict some minor damage, sure. Hardly a *martial arts* fight, though.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/karatekid13-03.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/karatekid13-04.jpg

Note he actually took Superman out with this move, along with holding his own against the LOSH.

He can handle group matches just fine.

cdtm
Originally posted by Q99
He 'schooled' him by using UB's own carelessness against him when UB rushed him. Throwing around someone of that strength who is using little fighting skill isn't all that impressive, Shiva or Elektra could do that too.



Eh, like I said, I knew my take wouldn't be popular, but performance against high-powereds does not equal similar stompage against handling *multiple* highly skilled foes at once.

Shiva could dodge a super speed rush? KK noted Ultra Boy switched to super speed before the dodge.

Konton
Originally posted by cdtm
Shiva could dodge a super speed rush? KK noted Ultra Boy switched to super speed before the dodge.

Shiva dismantled Supergirl. May or may not satisfy your question.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_LadyShiva156.jpg

Q99
Cassandra has also handled Superboy and Bizarro Supergirl.



Yea, again, against powered types, not high-end martial artists. These are incredibly skilled fighters, a lot more-so than those in the scan.

Again performance against metas =/= performance against martial artists. When he fights skilled martial artist it's always solo, and multiple-on-one is a big multiplier (in part since it means fighting with his *back* to at least one of them).

cdtm
Originally posted by Konton
Shiva dismantled Supergirl. May or may not satisfy your question.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_LadyShiva156.jpg

<fan boy mode>That's fantastic.</fan boy mode>

Different than KK noting UB's switch to super speed, than dodging though. Plus, Shiva doesn't really have a history of feats in the range of Amorr's, on just about all levels... (Kicking through force fields, penetrating interitron, leveling tanks, dodging speedsters clearly using their speed.. You name it..)

Q99
Originally posted by cdtm
That's fantastic.

Different than KK noting UB's switch to super speed, than dodging though. Plus, Shiva doesn't really have a history of feats in the range of Amorr's, on just about all levels... (Kicking through force fields, penetrating interitron, leveling tanks, dodging speedsters clearly using their speed.. You name it..)

I'll note that Shiva's daughter has done the 'hit through forcefield' things, and I'll note those other things don't prevent other martial artists from still giving him a fight on the rare occasion he fights someone *really* good.

And yea, she doesn't have the history of feats, but it's not being argued that she's on Val's level, it's a three-on-one being argued about.



Also, all he did with UB was go along with a *very* obvious, straitforward rush. Black Canary's done similar against Black Alice (when Alice used Marvel-family power or Wonder Woman power), let alone Shiva.

cdtm
The problem here, is even though Val's never actually killed anyone, his feats are more than enough to go through anyone below Supermans level.

Can any of the three block an attack that can flatten a skyscraper? Even if we gave them the benefit of the doubt and assumed Val's speed was on their level, what stops him from just ripping them apart the same way he'd tear apart a tank?

The only way the three win, is with the same kind of PIS that happens in comics.

Konton
Originally posted by cdtm
<fan boy mode>That's fantastic.</fan boy mode>

Different than KK noting UB's switch to super speed, than dodging though. Plus, Shiva doesn't really have a history of feats in the range of Amorr's, on just about all levels... (Kicking through force fields, penetrating interitron, leveling tanks, dodging speedsters clearly using their speed.. You name it..)

Shiva wrecked a Superman villain (Shadowdragon) with a stick. He was in invisibility mode, has lightspeed feats, and can take Kal's hits.

Lord_Talron
team beats him, if not with skill, elektra mindrapes him

srankmissingnin
I think its funny that people can't differentiate between the different versions of Karate Kid, and cite examples from all three while they make their arguments. Classic, 3boot and Countdown/One Year Later Karate Kid, are all different characters. Choose the version you are going to argue in favour for an stick with it, other wise its confusing and messy.

cdtm
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I think its funny that people can't differentiate between the different versions of Karate Kid, and cite examples from all three while they make their arguments. Classic, 3boot and Countdown/One Year Later Karate Kid, are all different characters. Choose the version you are going to argue in favour for an stick with it, other wise its confusing and messy.

By feats, all three are in the class 100 brick range, so I don't see it particularly mattering which version...

What it comes down to, is that Val's problems with non meta's doesn't jive with the fact his thing is performing feats comparable to characters that nobody would ever think of arguing would be given trouble.. In the comic book, his punch will be blocked by Batman. In the arena, the feats say Batman should be a bloody pile of goo...

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by cdtm
By feats, all three are in the class 100 brick range, so I don't see it particularly mattering which version...

What it comes down to, is that Val's problems with non meta's doesn't jive with the fact his thing is performing feats comparable to characters that nobody would ever think of arguing would be given trouble.. In the comic book, his punch will be blocked by Batman. In the arena, the feats say Batman should be a bloody pile of goo...

3-Boot Val is basically Karnak-lite, Classic is a monstrous Kryptonian level thread, and One Year Later is some where in the middle.

cdtm
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
3-Boot Val is basically Karnak-lite, Classic is a monstrous Kryptonian level thread, and One Year Later is some where in the middle.

I wouldn't give them much odds against Karnak either. stick out tongue

Although I think 3boot Val has the edge in feats, if only because Ultra Boy is > most Karnak faced.

Also not sure Karnak could do the snow clearing feat. That's power and control you probably wouldn't see from most class 70-100 types.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Q99
All solo fights, I note.

Fighting multiple coordinated top-tier martial artists (one with powers and weapons) is tougher than fighting one uber-tier martial artist.

This trio working together would I feel handle any of those fights solidly.




Dangerous criminals, sure, but not so individually skilled martial artists. Beating mobs is a lot different than fighting top tiers.

Also, if we're talking the Reboot KK when that happened, they beat him up the first go, but only when he recovered his focus and was more mentally prepared did he handle them.



Avoid getting killed by the Five and inflict some minor damage, sure. Hardly a *martial arts* fight, though.

Yes, but the amount of EASE he did it to those fighters was something. Considering that Black Tiger is probably leagues better than any of the three in this fight. Black Tiger trained his butt off and dedicated himself to beating Val, yet when they met a second time, Val won, but not so easy.

Elektra and Shiva are threats, but Chesire isn't close to Val skill wise.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I think its funny that people can't differentiate between the different versions of Karate Kid, and cite examples from all three while they make their arguments. Classic, 3boot and Countdown/One Year Later Karate Kid, are all different characters. Choose the version you are going to argue in favour for an stick with it, other wise its confusing and messy.

I've labeled all the Val's I want to use. The poster didn't even acknowledge the Val here, so I decided to use any Val I want to.

Konton
Shiva may or may not have just received her yearly mega-upgrade in the new Birds of Prey. The White Canary has appeared and addressed Dinah as Suis Jerk Jai, so it's likely Shiva.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Konton
Shiva may or may not have just received her yearly mega-upgrade in the new Birds of Prey. The White Canary has appeared and addressed Dinah as Suis Jerk Jai, so it's likely Shiva.

PR and I were talking about this, but the solits say it's a new villain. I have a theory on who it is, though.

If it is Shiva, she looks bad ass and could probably give Elektra a run for her money.

Konton
Originally posted by Prep-Man
PR and I were talking about this, but the solits say it's a new villain. I have a theory on who it is, though.

If it is Shiva, she looks bad ass and could probably give Elektra a run for her money.

Let's not get too carried away after one feat.

disgust

cdtm
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Yes, but the amount of EASE he did it to those fighters was something. Considering that Black Tiger is probably leagues better than any of the three in this fight. Black Tiger trained his butt off and dedicated himself to beating Val, yet when they met a second time, Val won, but not so easy.

Elektra and Shiva are threats, but Chesire isn't close to Val skill wise.

Right, Black Tiger draws on the same pool of martial arts as KK, so even if he gave Val trouble it's not really a black mark against him.

Seriously, if we were talking about Savage Hulk or Luke Cage vs these three, would anyone argue they could win? Because that's the kind of opponent they're facing...

Basically, Val Amorr is a ringer. He's supposed to have no powers, yet performs feats associated with high level bricks.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Konton
Let's not get too carried away after one feat.

disgust

I think Shiva can give Elektra a run for her money without the upgrade and I'm not getting too carried away, since it's not even Shiva to begin with. If the solits are true, than it's a new villain entirely.

Konton
Shiva would get wins on Elektra, but she's far from taking a majority.

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