Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

We all know the score here.

And for those of you who don't. It's been argued in many a thread that one tactic for beating Wolverine in a forum battle is by breaking his neck, ripping him apart, or otherwise comprimising his bone structure for the win.

For years Wolverine supporters have argued that Wolverine can't be ripped apart, that his bones have been bonded on the molecular level but somehow still allow for movement.

Because of this argumentation, we are lead to the second part of this story where Wolverine has had his brain penetrated by bullets, and arrows, but each time having been by a method impossible to replicate on a human skull were it covered with Adamantium.

Some camps believe that if Wolverine's skeletal structure is different enough to be impossible to pull apart, then it's different enough to argue that he's missing bones allowing for these instances to take place.

Some camps argue that these instances are nothing more than PIS based on general misconceptions of the human anatomy and that if Wolverine were missing pieces of his skull and/or other body parts it would have been mentioned by now.


Whatever the case may be, it's a hard case to call with evidence on both sides of the fence... Let's see which side is more convincing.

Maybe the bone in the eye socket is flexible and bends so the bullets/arrows enter. Wolverine flex many of his bones, would be consistent.

Wolverine being shot in the eye isn't proof that his bones are missing anymore than it is proof that bullets can pierce Adamantium, or that he has (lol) flexible bones. You can come up with all sorts of theroies for why it happened but at the end of the day they are still theories. We don't know how it happened because it was never clarified on panel. What we do know however is that Adamantium is unbreakable, and that we've seen all the bones Wolverine would need to be missing in order for these feats to be valid. Thats what we know. If a feat can't be explained, and runs in direct contrast to what is established than they are instances of PIS. Thats just how it is, no matter how hard someone wants to Theorycraft in order to make some sense of it.

Srank could you bring forth scans at some point to support your position?

Arguing that Wolverine should get Koed via a bullet to the eye due to comic physics is faulty logic.

We know that:

1.- Wolverine's bones have some unexplainable flexibility.
2.- He has been koed not once but several times by being hit in the eye.

Should we say 1 is false because we know human anatomy doesn't allow it? Should we accept 1 makes 2 possible and thus is explainable? Or should we pick facts how we see fit in order to dismiss whatever forum arguments we want instead of sticking to comic facts?

Just put scans of bullets bouncing from Logan's eyes and then we start to talk about facts instead of theorycrafting.

Originally posted by Bentley
We know that:

1.- Wolverine's bones have some unexplainable flexibility.

We do? Does that explain how a bullet can go through a tiny adamantuim hole though?



Originally posted by Bentley

2.- He has been koed not once but several times by being hit in the eye.

Should we say 1 is false because we know human anatomy doesn't allow it? Should we accept 1 makes 2 possible and thus is explainable? Or should we pick facts how we see fit in order to dismiss whatever forum arguments we want instead of sticking to comic facts?

Just put scans of bullets bouncing from Logan's eyes and then we start to talk about facts instead of theorycrafting.

The reason why I say its false is because the reason why Wolverine gets Koed by bullets via brain is because the writers don't know human physiology not because its comicbook physics. If they knew there was bone behind the eye they wouldnt allow it. Thats why when he doesn't get hurt when he gets hit in the head. As far as I know the only thing different about Wolverines skeleton is the fact it has adamantuim and claws nothing else.

Originally posted by Bentley
We know that:

1.- Wolverine's bones have some unexplainable flexibility.
2.- He has been koed not once but several times by being hit in the eye.

Should we say 1 is false because we know human anatomy doesn't allow it? Should we accept 1 makes 2 possible and thus is explainable? Or should we pick facts how we see fit in order to dismiss whatever forum arguments we want instead of sticking to comic facts?

Just put scans of bullets bouncing from Logan's eyes and then we start to talk about facts instead of theorycrafting.

Wolverine's bones don't have an unexplainable flexibility, his skeleton as an unexplained level of cohesive unity. That isn't the same time.

He hasn't been koed by being "hit in the eye" more than once actually. Scalphunter shot him in the eye, and he went down but he wasn't knocked out, he was still conscious and his healing factor was even shot off briefly after he was shot.

Logan took a large caliber bullet from an anti-material sniper rifle to directly to the eye in Rampaging Wolverine without slowing down.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin


Logan took a large caliber bullet from an anti-material sniper rifle to directly to the eye in Rampaging Wolverine without slowing down.

I suspect thats because the bullet was too big to go into the brain.

Originally posted by jinzin
Srank could you bring forth scans at some point to support your position?

Honestly... I don't anticipate me scouring through every Wolverine appearance to find all the pictures of his exposed skull. The few times for the Wolverine respect thread was more than enough for me for the foreseeable future. lol

Off the top of my head you can see Wolverine's skull and entire skeleton when Gaea, incinerates him and turns off his powers in Fantastic Force. You get a clear view of his eye socket in one of the panels as well that shows it as being completely solid, as well as the sphenoid bone visible through the nasal cavity. That is an extension of the Old Man Logan divergent timeline though, although he did cross over back into 616 Marvel U in the Fantastic Four.

Originally posted by Deadline
I suspect thats because the bullet was too big to go into the brain.

Like all bullets should be.

Although... I think it was a smaller (or at the very least equal) caliber bullet than the ones Scalphunter was shown using in Messiah Complex. Those things were beasts.

Still that is an armor piercing anti-tank round. The force would still **** some shit up inside the ol' noggin. Which coincidently is the most logical explanation for every and all examples of Wolverine's skull being "penetrated." A low healing factor showing and the force of the bullet connecting with his skull briefly koing him, no actual penetration of the brain. But thats still just theorycrafting a few PIS examples that don't need to be explained.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin


Still that is an armor piercing anti-tank round. The force would still **** some shit up inside the ol' noggin. Which coincidently is the most logical explanation for every and all examples of Wolverine's skull being "penetrated." A low healing factor showing and the force of the bullet connecting with his skull briefly koing him, no actual penetration of the brain. But thats still just theorycrafting a few PIS examples that don't need to be explained.

You know I kinda thought about that. Even if the bullets weren't big enough to go through the hole some gun powder is sure to get into his brain. I would have thought it would at least burn some of his brain and make him a little woozy. I think buckshot could possibly get through the holes.

As someone doing a biology degree, there are lots of holes in the skull:

In the eye socket, at the back to let the optic nerve out and underneath at the back where many blood vessels that supply the eye and its muscles join the heads blood supply: http://www.aurorahealthcare.org/healthgate/images/eye_bone_socket.jpg

Nasal cavity to connect the nasal passages to the trachea:http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3088/2909353019_1694f5f1fe_b.jpg
(The bone across the nose only covers the top part of the nose bridge, futher down is cartilage)

Through the mouth/side of mouth too. But I think through the hole for the optic nerve is the only way to get to the brain


Edit: Also thought about it, normal people get concussion from a bump to the head. The force behind a bullet would probably give msasive concussion even if it didn't damage the brain. Boxers get KO all the time without the brain being penetrated

I'm not getting a biology degree, but I am getting my BA in Illustration so I have studied anatomy pretty extensively. The superior orbital fissure is about the size of dime and the inferior even smaller, not nearly big enough for a bullet to pass through. Especially not a 20mm round bullet.

Sorry dunno how big a bullet is lol. I actually have no idea, as I only ever seen them in films. Wouldn't an adamantium bullet penetrate? Or is that always pointed out when that happens?

Originally posted by Omgu8mynewt
Sorry dunno how big a bullet is lol. I actually have no idea, as I only ever seen them in films. Wouldn't an adamantium bullet penetrate? Or is that always pointed out when that happens?

Adamantium bullet will have the same effect on Adamantium as a normal bullet, it will just be significantly more expensive. Adamantium is unbreakable even to Adamantium.

??? From physics A level, materials of the same chemical structure, when a force occurs between them, the weaker (eg. thinner or whatever) one will break?

Diamonds break diamonds?

Once the Adamantium cools into its form it is completely unbreakable, it can only be altered further by mater-manipulation.

So if he has a skull covered with adamantium that can't be broken, the skull's holes are too small for a bullet and there are no other holes, a bullet can't have entered his skull and hit his brain.

Well it is possible in some of the cases that the bullets broke apart and one or more pieces entered the brain I guess....

Anyway many writers know even less abnout guns than about anatomy. I remember Punisher taking several 12,7 mm bullets (one of those can penetrate 25mm of solid steel armor!) to his torso at close range and not even flinch. Wow kevlar ftw!

Ok, from what I read on this topic I don't get what the discussion is supposed to be. We aknowledge that writers suck at anatomy -most readers suck at it themselvers- but at the same time a bullet can simply split and fragments would still get to the brain giving pretty much the same result. What's the controversy?

Originally posted by Bentley
Ok, from what I read on this topic I don't get what the discussion is supposed to be. We aknowledge that writers suck at anatomy -most readers suck at it themselvers- but at the same time a bullet can simply split and fragments would still get to the brain giving pretty much the same result. What's the controversy?

Hmm that true actually but from what I remember the whole bullet would enter the brain.....but yeah thats actually possible.

Ugh.. It wouldnt make sense - the whole "Wolverine has bones in his eyesockets protecting his brain" thing. Im pretty sure its only supported by some 30 year old poorly drawn picture of his skeleton and even there its hard to tell. Dont think any writer has ever confirmed that.

Originally posted by jinzin
We all know the score here.

And for those of you who don't. It's been argued in many a thread that one tactic for beating Wolverine in a forum battle is by breaking his neck, ripping him apart, or otherwise comprimising his bone structure for the win.

For years Wolverine supporters have argued that Wolverine can't be ripped apart, that his bones have been bonded on the molecular level but somehow still allow for movement.

Because of this argumentation, we are lead to the second part of this story where Wolverine has had his brain penetrated by bullets, and arrows, but each time having been by a method impossible to replicate on a human skull were it covered with Adamantium.

Some camps believe that if Wolverine's skeletal structure is different enough to be impossible to pull apart, then it's different enough to argue that he's missing bones allowing for these instances to take place.

Some camps argue that these instances are nothing more than PIS based on general misconceptions of the human anatomy and that if Wolverine were missing pieces of his skull and/or other body parts it would have been mentioned by now.


Whatever the case may be, it's a hard case to call with evidence on both sides of the fence... Let's see which side is more convincing.

honestly, the case against the phantom bone theory makes sense, that doesn't change the fact that wolverine has been shown to be taken down in such a manner several times for the past couple of years, if it happened once under one writer, i could understand it being pis. when the same thing happens more than once though, how can it be PIS, this should be taken up with the mods.

Okay, but if we try and go by REAL LIFE biology here, we have to remember that Wolverine's brain would turn to goo from sloshing around the inside of his skull - even from a hit by Spiderman! So...what we end up with is Wolverine's brain (and all other organs) regenerating instantaneously after being turned to pure liquid? If that was actually true, wouldn't all other wounds heal that quickly? I mean...how does his brain heal itself from being pure liquid? Does he fight the angel of death every time he takes a Hulk punch? Common people...we should just accept that the character is inconsistently written and there are just too many contradictions to actually make sense of it all.

How we decide what we accept on this board should be a matter of reasoned logic as well as a majority of scans supporting a reasonable conclusion.

Originally posted by Trackz
honestly, the case against the phantom bone theory makes sense, that doesn't change the fact that wolverine has been shown to be taken down in such a manner several times for the past couple of years, if it happened once under one writer, i could understand it being pis. when the same thing happens more than once though, how can it be PIS, this should be taken up with the mods.

It's only happened half a dozen times, and they are all different entry points. Nasal cavity, orbital, ear, and the Deadpool example. It's not as though the Nasal cavity and taking a cross bow in the ear has any relevance to him taking a bullet to the eye what so ever - they are all essentially isolated examples involving different parts of human anatomy.

Like I've said, we've seen the bones that would need to be missing for this to be possible. Also he has been shot in the eye at least three additional times without any mention of the bullet penetrating his skull and hitting his brain, once with a shot gun, once with a hand gun, once with an anti-material rifle. There possible other two instances with a sniper rifle and shot gun, but they aren't clear if it was actually in his eye socket. When Weapon X was testing out Agent Zero they gave him an "Anti-metal Bullet" to take out Wolverine, but since the Director didn't want Wolverine to die he replaced it with a normal bullet. His rational was even if Zero took the shot, it wouldn't be effective and Wolverine would be fine.

In order for examples of Wolverine being shot in the brain to be considered valid they have to be explainable, and the aren't explainable. There is no reasoning offered on panel and theory we can come up with in an attempt to explain them is contradicted by on panel evidence.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It's only happened half a dozen times, and they are all different entry points. Nasal cavity, orbital, ear, and the Deadpool example. It's not as though the Nasal cavity and taking a cross bow in the ear has any relevance to him taking a bullet to the eye what so ever - they are all essentially isolated examples involving different parts of human anatomy.

Like I've said, we've seen the bones that would need to be missing for this to be possible. Also he has been shot in the eye at least three additional times without any mention of the bullet penetrating his skull and hitting his brain, once with a shot gun, once with a hand gun, once with an anti-material rifle. There possible other two instances with a sniper rifle and shot gun, but they aren't clear if it was actually in his eye socket. When Weapon X was testing out Agent Zero they gave him an "Anti-metal Bullet" to take out Wolverine, but since the Director didn't want Wolverine to die he replaced it with a normal bullet. His rational was even if Zero took the shot, it wouldn't be effective and Wolverine would be fine.

In order for examples of Wolverine being shot in the brain to be considered valid they have to be explainable, and the aren't explainable. There is no reasoning offered on panel and theory we can come up with in an attempt to explain them is contradicted by on panel evidence. there are wholes in the back of the brain sockets, heck wolverine stuffed his claws through them most recently and ko'd himself. i mean this has worked pretty much every time some has tried it, i mean even wolverine has stated it would work, no?

Originally posted by SamZED
Ugh.. It wouldnt make sense - the whole "Wolverine has bones in his eyesockets protecting his brain" thing. Im pretty sure its only supported by some 30 year old poorly drawn picture of his skeleton and even there its hard to tell. Dont think any writer has ever confirmed that.
dude ever single person has bone behind ther eye this is a fact, not some special mutation. It biological fact.
...so realy thousands of years of evolution back this as well as countless examples of his skeleton being shown and many even of such object beign stopped from enter his brain due to such bones.

Originally posted by Trackz
there are wholes in the back of the brain sockets, heck wolverine stuffed his claws through them most recently and ko'd himself. i mean this has worked pretty much every time some has tried it, i mean even wolverine has stated it would work, no?
what you just said made almost no senses......

brain sockets what? and what are you babbling about it working everytime or some such nonsenses. You pretty much ignore his entire arguement and responded with utter nonsenses.......

Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
Okay, but if we try and go by REAL LIFE biology here, we have to remember that Wolverine's brain would turn to goo from sloshing around the inside of his skull - even from a hit by Spiderman! So...what we end up with is Wolverine's brain (and all other organs) regenerating instantaneously after being turned to pure liquid? If that was actually true, wouldn't all other wounds heal that quickly? I mean...how does his brain heal itself from being pure liquid? Does he fight the angel of death every time he takes a Hulk punch? Common people...we should just accept that the character is inconsistently written and there are just too many contradictions to actually make sense of it all.

How we decide what we accept on this board should be a matter of reasoned logic as well as a majority of scans supporting a reasonable conclusion.

Real life biology where brain turns to liquid suddenly?

It would be good to have some pictures about that "Wolvie koing himself".

Originally posted by Battlehammer
what you just said made almost no senses......

brain sockets what? and what are you babbling about it working everytime or some such nonsenses. You pretty much ignore his entire arguement and responded with utter nonsenses....... ...and you clearly ignored mine, i meant eye sockets, relax. next i didn't even pose an argument, i asked a question.

Originally posted by Omgu8mynewt
Real life biology where brain turns to liquid suddenly?



well, if you had an unbreakable skull, and someone as strong as the Hulk punched you...ANYWHERE, your brain would turn into goo...not sure if it would be pure LIQUID, but it would a viscus pudding at best. The brain naturally has the consistency of pudding and so even a slight shot to the head causes slight permanent brain damage. If you get in a fight and someone hits you with a decent shot - you don't even need a concussion - you will have slight brain damage. Of course, much like drinking alcohol, the damage is so slight you won't notice any effects...at least not immediately - but over time, these things build up and there will be a noticeable difference. The damage is caused by the brain being sloshed around against the skull as it sits afloat in the cerebral spinal fluid. Now if Hulk hits Wolverine, his brain, under rules of real biology would be turned to pure goo. The initial blow itself would blow he brain apart inside the skull and literally, all you would see if you somehow opened it up, is this soupy cerebral spinal fluid, mixed with blood and thinned out chunks of brain all over the skull walls - there would be nothing left to regenerate.b

Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
well, if you had an unbreakable skull, and someone as strong as the Hulk punched you...ANYWHERE, your brain would turn into goo...not sure if it would be pure LIQUID, but it would a viscus pudding at best. The brain naturally has the consistency of pudding and so even a slight shot to the head causes slight permanent brain damage. If you get in a fight and someone hits you with a decent shot - you don't even need a concussion - you will have slight brain damage. Of course, much like drinking alcohol, the damage is so slight you won't notice any effects...at least not immediately - but over time, these things build up and there will be a noticeable difference. The damage is caused by the brain being sloshed around against the skull as it sits afloat in the cerebral spinal fluid. Now if Hulk hits Wolverine, his brain, under rules of real biology would be turned to pure goo. The initial blow itself would blow he brain apart inside the skull and literally, all you would see if you somehow opened it up, is this soupy cerebral spinal fluid, mixed with blood and thinned out chunks of brain all over the skull walls - there would be nothing left to regenerate.b


Well, it has been said on panel in the narration that Wolverine's organs are liquefied every time the Hulk hits him. So there is that.

Anyway:

Wolverine takes a shot to the eye from a high powered machine gun to the eye. He is completely unphased and digs out the shell with his fingers:

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/Skull/th_Wolverine_orbital_bulletb01.jpg http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/Skull/th_Wolverine_orbital_bulletb02.jpg

Takes an anti material sniper rifle bullet to the eye, doesn't even slow his stride:

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/Skull/th_Wolverine_orbital_bulleta01.jpg http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/Skull/th_Wolverine_orbital_bulleta02.jpg

Takes a shot gun blast to the eye. Kills the shooters and picks out the buckshot:

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/Skull/th_Wolverine_orbital_bulletd01.jpg http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/Skull/th_Wolverine_orbital_bulletd02.jpg

Weapon X thinks that an Anti-metal bullet is required to take Wolverine down with a head shot even from one of the best marksmen in Marvel U. The bullet is replaced with a standard round since the Director doesn't what Wolverine to have it that easy. Clearly Weapon X doesn't think a normal bullet would get into the brain from behind the eye. But what do they know? They only gave him his Adamantium in first place.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/Skull/th_Wolverine_antimetalbullet01.jpg http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/Skull/th_Wolverine_antimetalbullet02.jpg

Two more possible ones

Wolverine possible takes a hand gun round to the eye. He goes down for a few seconds, but Rucka's Wolverine was shown to be koed by a sniper rifle bullet to even to the side of the head. Rucka's Wolverine was more of a bullet dodger than most incarnations:

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/Skull/th_Wolverine_orbital_bulletc01.jpg

Winter Soldiers sniper takes a shot at Wolverine. It's not clear where he is shot in the face but we can see his face as he falls and there is no bullet wound or blood leaving the only possible entry point the eye socket that is in shadow:

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/Skull/th_Wolverine_orbital_bullete01.jpg

Those are examples I tracked down from memory off the top of my head, I'm sure if I bothered to look I would find more. I wish this assine crap had come up while jinzin and I were creating the respect thread and going through every Wolverine appearance. Common sense shit we didn't bother to included or take not of because we VASTLY over estimated the general intelligance of posters on KMC.

This theory is absurd. It flies directly into the face of on panel. Evidence that shows Wolverine has the bones that would needed be missing for this to be possible, evidence that shows even weaker incarnations of Wolverine being shot in the eye to no avail, and of course general anatomy. It is a contradiction to virtually everything we know or have seen of Wolverine. Quite frankly anyone who thinks this is a valid theory that needs discussion or warrants discourse is an idiot.

Originally posted by jinzin
We all know the score here.

And for those of you who don't. It's been argued in many a thread that one tactic for beating Wolverine in a forum battle is by breaking his neck, ripping him apart, or otherwise comprimising his bone structure for the win.

For years Wolverine supporters have argued that Wolverine can't be ripped apart, that his bones have been bonded on the molecular level but somehow still allow for movement.

Because of this argumentation, we are lead to the second part of this story where Wolverine has had his brain penetrated by bullets, and arrows, but each time having been by a method impossible to replicate on a human skull were it covered with Adamantium.

Some camps believe that if Wolverine's skeletal structure is different enough to be impossible to pull apart, then it's different enough to argue that he's missing bones allowing for these instances to take place.

Some camps argue that these instances are nothing more than PIS based on general misconceptions of the human anatomy and that if Wolverine were missing pieces of his skull and/or other body parts it would have been mentioned by now.


Whatever the case may be, it's a hard case to call with evidence on both sides of the fence... Let's see which side is more convincing. Wolverine either gets his bones ripped apart or his brain stabbed through his eye.

durverine

Originally posted by Badabing
Wolverine either gets his bones ripped apart or his brain stabbed through his eye.

durverine

Or maybe they are all... magic phasing bullets!!!!!! dur

I think he took a bullet to the eye in Wolverine Anniversary, too. The story with hijackers. He faked getting KO'd.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I think he took a bullet to the eye in Wolverine Anniversary, too. The story with hijackers. He faked getting KO'd.

Looks like it:

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/Skull/th_Wolverine_orbital_bulletf01.jpg

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Looks like it:

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/Skull/th_Wolverine_orbital_bulletf01.jpg

Yeah, I posted these scans in his respect thread. Logan didn't lose consciousness.

But I guess this thread is far from over anyway...

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Yeah, I posted these scans in his respect thread. Logan didn't lose consciousness.

But I guess this thread is far from over anyway...

It should be over.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Or maybe they are all... magic phasing bullets!!!!!! dur