FOTJ Luke Skywalker vs DE Darth Sidious

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
My opinion:

1. Luke 9-10/10
2. IDK, probably Sidious
3. Luke 7/10
4. Luke 10/10
5. Probably Sidious
6. Luke 9-10/10

My reasoning:

1. Luke uses his lightsaber regularly, whereas Sidious has been out of practice for years.
2. Sidious has more offensive Force powers such as Force lightning/Force storm.
3. Luke has much better TK feats, whereas Sidious's only notable TK feat that I'm aware of is hurling senate pods.
4. In Fate of the Jedi: Backlash, Luke was stated to have trained in more martial arts styles than Firen (a witch of dathomir), who seemed to be pretty good at hand to hand combat, had fingers and toes.
5. Sidious has had more time to study such things and arguably more resources to do so as well.
6. Because neither is likely powerful enough to overcome the other's Force defenses, or at least not at the get go, the battle will likely come down to a saber duel, in which Luke is far superior for reasons stated earlier - more regular use of it, since Sidious has been out of practice for years.

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. It's not.

Luke = What Anakin should have become, according to Lucas.

Anakin = Twice or ten times as powerful as Sidious, according to Lucas.

Do the math yourself.

Anybody who puts Sidious on one level with NJO / DN / FOTJ Luke either needs a pair of glasses or a brain surgery. Period.

So you're indirectly insulting Gideon.

Lord Lucien

Got a thing from deflecting blame/shame, don't ya, Rudy?

truejedi

y "Rudy"?

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Got a thing from deflecting blame/shame, don't ya, Rudy?

I can list several other people that have brought up this topic...and yet you only complain when I do it.

Gideon

They've complained when I have as well.

Lord Lucien

Originally posted by truejedi
y "Rudy"? Ever watch South Park?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I can list several other people that have brought up this topic...and yet you only complain when I do it. Because they're not the Cousin Oliver of this place. Because I get a kick out of seeing you offended. Because Nai's response directed at you about your statement garnered an attempted deflection away from you and towards Gideon. Because you generally suck at casting yourself in a good light. Because you play the victim. Because I have nothing better to do? Probably.

Ah well. Hugs and kisses, sugar.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So you're indirectly insulting Gideon.

Whoopie-ka-dooo.

No, jabroni. I'm directly insulting you and not indirectly insulting Gideon. Who the hell gives a crap about Gideons beliefs when we two are talking? I was clearly commenting on your statement that this is a "big topic", wasn't I?

And, gosh, it isn't a big topic. Either you stick with Lucas words and this can be solved by two lines of text or you ignore the creator of Star Wars - which would still be fine with me - and do it the rough way. This would mean that you have to take anything the source material says into consideration, which happens to equip Luke with about a dozen of deus-ex-machina force abilties, of which each would be sufficient to tool anybody else in the SW universe. And assuming that VS-matches are usually done with people in their "top shape", Luke could use every single one of that abilities.

That aside, I don't see any link to Gideons line of thought, which was based upon the different power levels attributed to Luke through-out the EU (ranging from "unable to defeat a single droideka" to "godlike" wink

Elok Quintly

You mean all those Force abilities Sidious can purportedly utilize as well, given the canonical statement in the Dark Empire Sourcebook that posits Sidious can use nearly every power, while simultaneously granting him the latitude to pull any newly-concocted application of the Force that he desires out of his anal cavity? Not to mention the line in that very same sourcebook that affirms the ambiguous genetic manipulation of Palpatine's clone bodies--distinct from Carnor Jax's sabotage (in case there is any confusion).

Luke and Wankatine are both wanktastic characters that can pull anything from thin air, and pitting them against each other is like witnessing a cage match between two fanfic authors writing Mary Sues.

truejedi

In combat, I have no doubts that Luke would win. He beat DE Sids with the help of only untrained Leia in Dark Empire. There is absolutely nothing that can substantiate how much help she was able to be. In fact, Luke wasn't even aware that she was helping him, which should make obvious she wasn't helping much. This is a Leia that 20+ years later is still a below average Jedi.

So that he not be mis-represented, I think Gideon (since others keep citing him) mainly keeps his argument on Sidious's force mastery, not his combat ability.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Borbarad
Whoopie-ka-dooo.

No, jabroni. I'm directly insulting you and not indirectly insulting Gideon. Who the hell gives a crap about Gideons beliefs when we two are talking? I was clearly commenting on your statement that this is a "big topic", wasn't I?

And, gosh, it isn't a big topic. Either you stick with Lucas words and this can be solved by two lines of text or you ignore the creator of Star Wars - which would still be fine with me - and do it the rough way. This would mean that you have to take anything the source material says into consideration, which happens to equip Luke with about a dozen of deus-ex-machina force abilties, of which each would be sufficient to tool anybody else in the SW universe. And assuming that VS-matches are usually done with people in their "top shape", Luke could use every single one of that abilities.

That aside, I don't see any link to Gideons line of thought, which was based upon the different power levels attributed to Luke through-out the EU (ranging from "unable to defeat a single droideka" to "godlike" wink

, which are already nullified by the usual conditions assumed for VS-matches in the context of this forum, which are clearly based on the idea that the contestants are in top shape (capable of performing / replicating their most prominent showings). Which would always come down to Luke in his "godlike" shape VS a not-so-godlike Sidious.

There you go.

If you were to look at my posts in this thread, you'd notice that I agree that in most areas Luke > Sidious, but some disagree, including prestigious debaters such as Gideon, so there obviously is enough room for debate.

Elok Quintly

Force harmony combines latent luminous energy. Leia's contribution is not a reflection of her skill, but rather her congenital presence in the Force. Keep in mind that the unborn fetus of Anakin Solo was an additional component of said Force harmony, as ludicrous as that sounds.

How does awareness necessarily indicate magnitude in this situation?

We also have no evidence to prove that Palpatine did not maintain his adroit skills with a lightsaber.

truejedi

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Force harmony combines latent luminous energy. Leia's contribution is not a reflection of her skill, but rather her congenital presence in the Force. Keep in mind that the unborn fetus of Anakin Solo was an additional component of said Force harmony, as ludicrous as that sounds.

It actually does sound a bit ludicrous. You will need to prove this. The only thing I've seen suggesting Leia helps Luke was a comic panel where Luke says "Leia, help me!" and Leia says "I already am, can't you tell?"

Where are you getting proof for ANY of the above?

truejedi

Originally posted by Elok Quintly

We also have no evidence to prove that Palpatine did not maintain his adroit skills with a lightsaber.

Oh, and this: What adroit skills? He was definitly a skilled lightsaber user, and on the level to fight with the elite, but not necessarily better than the elite. Not as skilled with a saber as Mace, arguably Yoda, and arguable Luke. Now Luke, 25 years later, constantly given accolades for his saber abilities, with COUNTLESS saber victories (vs, how many, by Sidious?) is going to be challenged with a saber by sidious? You will need more than "he trained Maul" to back that up.

No. Sidious's ability is with the force, and is why he resorts to the force in most confrontations.

truejedi

and triple post to say :AAAAAHHHHHH i'm doing it again!!!!! I cannot believe I'm posting in this thread. I'm out.

I fell for it without realizing what was happening. This is probably how Tiger felt the second time he cheated.

Well, no more. Sorry Elok.

Elok Quintly

They go into more detail in the audio drama, you can find links to audio files with the pertinent dialogue on the Wookieepedia entry for Force harmony.

Both the Dark Empire Sourcebook and the endnotes for Dark Empire further clarify the nature of this power. If you do not have access to said sources, then I will scour the texts and provide scans if necessary.

Palpatine has mastered all forms. His supposed loss to Mace had little to do with saber skill, he fought Yoda to a draw, and I'm not aware of any saber skills/feats Luke has that place him above Palpatine, other than more chronicled duels.

I seem to recall a comment in Star Wars Insider 113 describing Palpatine's skills with a lightsaber, but the exact quote eludes me. If someone could help I would be most appreciative.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
You mean all those Force abilities Sidious can purportedly utilize as well, given the canonical statement in the Dark Empire Sourcebook that posits Sidious can use nearly every power, while simultaneously granting him the latitude to pull any newly-concocted application of the Force that he desires out of his anal cavity? Not to mention the line in that very same sourcebook that affirms the ambiguous genetic manipulation of Palpatine's clone bodies--distinct from Carnor Jax's sabotage (in case there is any confusion).

Oh my. When will you people learn to understand the concept of analyzing the source material.

The DE sourcebook was written when almost no EU material existed. The stuff released so far was (afaik) Timothy Zahns Thrawn trilogy, and the DE comics themselves. We neither had ancient Sith, nor Sith magic, nor fancy computer game heroes / villains and force powers established in the KotoR / Jedi Knight games.

At that point in time, Sidious - besides Vader - was the only Sith Lord known. So - obviously - he was capable of using all Dark Side powers, as there was nothing in that department existing outside of his persona. Sidious was the embodyment of the Dark Side. with everyone else just being his minions.

You belive that still is valid after the release of tons and tons of additional force material, including ritual based Sith magic and other stuff? If that's the case, you may want to have a look at the TOTJ Sourcebook which "canonically" claims that Freedon Nadd can use every light side and dark side power presented in that piece of literature, including force storms.

So Nadd > Sidious?

He has? Do you have a quote ready that says so?

Firstly: He fought Yoda to a draw? From a superior position he, according to the G-canon RotS script, managed to be disarmed by Yoda in 30 seconds of combat. He did perform worse than AotC Dooku.

Secondly: You question Luke's saber ability in comparison to Sidious, when we see DE Luke defeating Palpatine in a lightsaber duel? I didn't realize that plain ignorance of facts helps to win debates now.

@truejedi

Urm. Except of Luke asking Leia to join force with him, which she answers by the line that she's already doing so. Obviously Luke didn't even notice it. That aside the narrator in the comic states that she was merely helping Luke by allowing him to utilize a further unaccessible part of his own potential against Sidious.

Gideon

Elok Quintly
I seem to recall a comment in Star Wars Insider 113 describing Palpatine's skills with a lightsaber, but the exact quote eludes me. If someone could help I would be most appreciative.

My girlfriend bought me that particular edition: "Though he often employed others to do his dirty work, Palpatine was a stunning fighter, capable of defeating multiple Jedi Masters in combat."

truejedi

Hey Gideon, what's your SN on TFN if you don't mind me asking? I have a friend in RL who uses that website, and wonders why I say KMC is superior.

Gideon

'Twas Sir_Gideon before I was banned.

Elok Quintly

You really grasp at straws when it comes to the non-validity of canon sources, don't you Borbarad? Out-of-universe context has nothing to do with canonicity.

I'm sure you've read that Nick Gillard quote right? Oh wait, I'm sure you'll come up with some ridiculous reason why that isn't valid.

It is also clear that debating with you is a fruitless endeavor, given that you are most assuredly a rather cantankerous individual. You seem to ignore previous debates in the past that already invalidated the argument that Freedon Nadd can successfully conjure Force storms of his own power, gloss over any canon source you find disagreeable, and use logic that just so happens to be anything but congruous with official canon policy.

Gideon

Calling out Nick Gillard isn't wrong; he isn't one of the primary minds behind the creative process, he's the stunt coordinator. His opinion on their respective fighting skills is about as valid as one of ours.

If it's the Freedon Nadd quote that Nebaris has thrown up, all that is said is that he has some "knowledge" of the techniques in a certain sourcebook -- not that he has mastery of them.

Elok Quintly

Originally posted by Gideon
Calling out Nick Gillard isn't wrong; he isn't one of the primary minds behind the creative process, he's the stunt coordinator. His opinion on their respective fighting skills is about as valid as one of ours.
I wouldn't say that. Nick Gillard had direct creative input on the fighting styles and combat prowess of each character in the prequel films. If he says Palpatine is ambidextrous, likes to lure his opponents into a false sense of security, and has mastered every form and weapon, then this is so.

Autokrat

GL tells Gillard what happens and Gillard makes it work on the big screen.

End of story.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Gideon
My girlfriend bought me that particular edition: "Though he often employed others to do his dirty work, Palpatine was a stunning fighter, capable of defeating multiple Jedi Masters in combat."

So were numerous other characters in the Star Wars mythos.

Gideon

EQ
I wouldn't say that.

It doesn't matter what you would or wouldn't say, though. Unless you can find a source that proves that Gillard has considerable sway in the creative process of the battles in the films, then it doesn't matter whatsoever. He carries no official role in the creative process as far as LFL is concerned and as far as I'm aware.

Gideon

Thanks, HeWhoKnowsNothing. Where would we be without your astute ability to point out the obvious?

EQ asked for the quote; I provided it. If you don't like the argument, take it up with him.

Elok Quintly

Then I suppose by association, George Lucas told Nick Gillard that Palpatine is ambidextrous, that Palpatine loves luring opponents into a false sense of security, changes his fighting style on a whim, and that Palpatine is a master of every form and style.

http://www.starwars.com/episode-i/bts/profile/f19991117/index.html
Defining Jedi swordplay isn't part of the creative process? Dang, I guess every Star Wars film was a one-man show.

Gideon

Mind your sarcasm; the link doesn't work.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
You really grasp at straws when it comes to the non-validity of canon sources, don't you Borbarad? Out-of-universe context has nothing to do with canonicity.

Lmfao.

Firstly OOU context has nothing to do with canonicity? You realize that the highest form of SW canon is George Lucas himself who can technically rewrite SW canon as he wants by saying the right words. That's as OOU as it gets. Obviously your little premise is wrong.

Secondly I don't see how a work that is clearly written from an OOU perspective such as the DE Sourcebook should not be influenced by OOU context. If Sidious did know all techniques (maybe five of them) in 1994, it doesn't mean he knows 500 almost 2 decades later. That's bullshit.

Thirdly I don't have to grasp straws, given that you were omitting the first half of the quote, which reads "It is believed..." (that SIdious knew all powers and could device new ones), rendering this line of thought speculative at best, given that we don't have any idea who belived that. I can belief that Marka Ragnos can play tennis with star systems. Wow. Does that turn this notion into a fact?

There goes your argument, jabroni. Beat it.

Oww. The same Nick Gillard that denied the existance of Vaapad. He's certainly the best source to site when it comes to SW canon. Lmfao.

My dear Newbie.
Unlike you, I participated in most of the important debates that happened at this place, so you might want to know your role and shut your mouth instead of attempting to call me out on "ignoring stuff".

The fact of the matter is, that you wanted to take a quote literally, ignoring the context (and even half of the damn quote itself) to proof your point. I merely did the same with the Nadd quote. This isn't a game of "pick what you like and ignore the rest". Either you take everything literal, without questioning a single word appearing in a SW source, or you have to take the rough road of using the cells that god placed between your ears.

If you decide to do the latter, you can question every saying as you want but then you have to grant that right to all other people here as well. If you don't want to do that, then debating with me is a fruitless endeavor as I will simply kick your sorry ass back and forth across this place. I've done it to countless noobs before and one more or less doesn't really matter. Your choice. But don't expect me to waste time with you like I did with Gideon (who finally did succumb to my teachings). embarrasment

truejedi

Just thought of that: EEK. So does the screenplay, STRAIGHT FROM LUCAS overrule the movies?!?!?!

Cause Lucas IS the pinnacle of cannonicity. He overrules everything, even the films. Does his screenplay overrule what we see onscreen?

Gideon

TJ
Just thought of that: EEK. So does the screenplay, STRAIGHT FROM LUCAS overrule the movies?!?!?!

Cause Lucas IS the pinnacle of cannonicity. He overrules everything, even the films. Does his screenplay overrule what we see onscreen?

I'm 90% certain that this isn't the case.

George has ultimate authority over all of the movies (and, in many cases, over the EU itself ). Scripts are accurate to his original intent; what we see in the film is the final result.

In the case of Revenge of the Sith, Lucas not only had direct control over both the film and the script, but also the novelization by Matthew Stover.

truejedi

That's true. I would definitly prefer it that way, but it also occurred to me that we allow sequences from the novelization if there are gaps in the fighting that allow them to occur.

Wouldn't this screenplay work the same way? The above happened, though not shown on camera, because there are gaps in Yoda and Sidious's fight that would allow that to occur? Yoda holds sidious's life in his hands, hops away, THEN the camera comes back with Sidious throwing pods?

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Gideon
Thanks, HeWhoKnowsNothing. Where would we be without your astute ability to point out the obvious?

EQ asked for the quote; I provided it. If you don't like the argument, take it up with him.

I wasn't necessarily referring to you. I was simply saying that the quote that I'm referring to doesn't really mean much, as numerous other duelists have been similarly praised, many of whom aren't nearly as powerful as Sidious.

Gideon

TJ
That's true. I would definitly prefer it that way, but it also occurred to me that we allow sequences from the novelization if there are gaps in the fighting that allow them to occur.

Wouldn't this screenplay work the same way? The above happened, though not shown on camera, because there are gaps in Yoda and Sidious's fight that would allow that to occur? Yoda holds sidious's life in his hands, hops away, THEN the camera comes back with Sidious throwing pods?

The difficulty with the screenplay is that it shows Yoda about to kill Palpatine and then, for no reason, leaps away: this is tantamount to stupidity.

If, for example, the screenplay mentioned Palpatine start to regain his footing or preparing a sneak attack, that'd be one thing. But Yoda simply vows to kill the Emperor and jumps away for no reason.

You can understand how this would contradict the whole "Destroy the Sith, we must" line, yes?

Not to mention how some of it also contradicts what we see in the film itself, such as Yoda crashing into the Chancellor's podium (which is also in the novelization).

Elok Quintly

Originally posted by Gideon
Mind your sarcasm; the link doesn't work.
It works if you copy and paste it.

OOU context barring the word of Lucas and official LFL proclamations. If a canon source written in 1995 states that Stormtrooper armor is made from plastoid, and no source from that point onward directly contradicts it, then Stormtrooper armor is made from plastoid. End of story. It doesn't matter if the author was intoxicated at the time he wrote it, all that matters is that it was published and officially licensed by LFL.

See my response to your first point.

First of all, that's not a halve. Second, despite the reputed speculative nature of this passage, the omniscient narrative would render said speculation a rung higher than any accolades in-universe characters have provided for Luke's saber skills, which is something you have cited.

If you can ignore secondary canon sources, I guess he's permitted the same luxury. Either way, as far as I can recall, Gillard merely mentioned that he didn't consider the seven forms when working on the films. Mind providing the quote where he outright claims that Vaapad "doesn't exist"?

Gideon

Interesting arguments.

As far as canon is concerned though, unless there is a distinct contradiction between one source and another, no case for a retcon can be made.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
OOU context barring the word of Lucas and official LFL proclamations. If a canon source written in 1995 states that Stormtrooper armor is made from plastoid, and no source from that point onward directly contradicts it, then Stormtrooper armor is made from plastoid. End of story. It doesn't matter if the author was intoxicated at the time he wrote it, all that matters is that it was published and officially licensed by LFL.

And this is were you are wrong.

Every single source that adds new force powers to that which were known in 1995 does affect the statement. Because the "all powers known" back in 1995 are not the same "all powers known" we have in 2010. That is so damn obvious, that I think my IQ just dropped by 5 points because I had to type down this explanation.

Good god. I won't go on and explain the concept of "omniscience" in literature to you, mainly because there isn't any truely omniscient narrator present in one single SW source and you won't understand it at all. Fact.

Next thing is that, if some narrator says "it was assumed" then usually you would site that as a reference to the general public in a fashion of a "people said" statement. Given that the general public didn't even know that Palpatine was a Sith, this seems to be very speculative. No matter from what type of narrator it was coming - it's far away from being a fact.

And lastly: Accolades to Luke's saber skills (and I don't recall of having used any of those - I'm merely stating what he has done with his lightsaber) are usually given by people who practiced the art of lightsaber combat themselves. So one could say that they can give more accurate judgements on Luke's lightsaber ability that a not even sited source can about Sidious force knowledge.

He typed it down in a chatroom.
And secondary canon sources? Is somebody unfamiliar with certain terms? Apparently I have to explain them to you too. A "secondary" source is something that comments on events happening in an original source. Vaapad appears in the primary source material, even though it was originaly spawned outside of it.

That aside: Did you just destroy the credibility of your own source by saying that the same man who claimed Sidious mastered all forms of lightsaber combat didn't even give a crap about said forms. Yup. That makes perfect sense. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Elok Quintly

So third-person omniscient isn't used in any Star Wars source? That's quite a claim. Second, you really shouldn't be lecturing me on literary terms when you yourself consistently misspell simple words such as "cite". laughing

And the narrative contained within the Dark Empire Sourcebook refers only to in-universe characters and events. Aside from game statistics, there are no references to external factors. If you believe it is LFL's policy to interpret these older sources in the manner you are proposing, I challenge you to provide concrete evidence of this. If you don't, I'll look into it myself.

Merely because he didn't take the seven forms into consideration when making the film, doesn't render his statement any less germane--although it is a blanket statement rather than being specific, I'll grant you that.

Autokrat

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Second, you really shouldn't be lecturing me on literary terms when you yourself consistently misspell simple words such as "cite". laughing

1. This is nitpicking.

2. English is his second language.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
So third-person omniscient isn't used in any Star Wars source? That's quite a claim. Second, you really shouldn't be lecturing me on literary terms when you yourself consistently misspell simple words such as "cite". laughing

Given that I'm German and it's 2 a.m. over here, such things can happen. That aside, I happened to study literature and the mechanics are the same in German and English. So you may want to listen if I give you lessons in that field.

You are dodging the point.
Sourcebooks, as the name implies, do elaborate on sources and can only deal with source present. Logically, they can't refer to anything that wasn't there when they were written. Certainly the DE Sourcebook does only refer to events in the SW universe, but that doesn't change the fact that the meaning of the lines inside it did change with new source material popping up. There is a difference in mastering 5 techniques (in fact we pretty much just had mind-control, force lightning and TK back then) and mastering dozens of different (part exoctic and sometimes even completely lost) force powers.

If Thrawn back in 1992 was the "biggest threat the Republic has ever seen" according to some sourcebook, that certainly isn't the case any longer after the rebirth of Sidious, correct?

Gosh.
If he doesn't care about the forms, then he can't make educated statements about who used them. I'm rather sure that Sidious did master multiple forms, given that he (probably) used form VII (like Maul) which does require mastery of multiple forms. But I don't see any purpose for him to master the likes of Soresu (entirely defensive, not matching his style or philosophy) for example.

Won Fei Fon

Originally posted by Borbarad
Because the "all powers known" back in 1995 are not the same "all powers known" we have in 2010.

The point you're apparently missing being that if the source was referring to "all powers known" from the inside perspective of the story, then what may/may not have been known from the outside perspective of the story has absolutely no bearing on the validity of the statement, unless it has had some kind of impact on the story in a manner that now invalidates it.

At best you could argue that what we now know about the Force isn't in line with what may have been the original intent behind the statement, but from the perspective of the story the statement remains valid unless it faces conflicting evidence from within the story.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Won Fei Fon
The point you're apparently missing being that if the source was referring to "all powers known" from the inside perspective of the story, then what may/may not have been known from the outside perspective of the story has absolutely no bearing on the validity of the statement, unless it has had some kind of impact on the story in a manner that now invalidates it.

At best you could argue that what we now know about the Force isn't in line with what may have been the original intent behind the statement, but from the perspective of the story the statement remains valid unless it faces conflicting evidence from within the story.

The point that you're apparently missing being that the source doesn't refere to anything from the "inside perspective" of the story. The Sourcebooks have been written to transport the storyline into the world of the Star Wars Roleplaying Game. So they are written for people playing the game by people who designed the game.

So do you really think that this statements refers to "all known powers" in the storyline, or does it merely point to "all known powers" in the context of the RPG? I'd suggest the latter. Which doesn't matter much, because anything not belonging to the storyline being present in a sourcebook is regarded as N-Canon. And I don't see the list of Sidious force abilities playing a part in the storyline.

So is the statement just (intentionally) vague, outdated or totally not canon? Who cares? In any case, it can't be used as proof for a certain point.

Won Fei Fon

"It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure".

I'd say it's quite clearly coming from the inside perspective of the story; are we to assume that Sidious breaks the fourth wall at his leisure and designs new techniques from outside of the story for LFL to use in their sourcebooks?

Ms.Marvel

the current argument aside, the "it is believed" part of that statement really renders the entire statement fallible anyway...

Elok Quintly

Where are you getting this notion from? So far as I'm aware, only the RPG statistics are regarded as N-Canon, seeing as to how they're only applicable to game mechanics.

And yes, it is referring to all known powers within the storyline. The statement wouldn't have made mention of his ability to create powers at his leisure if it only described powers mentioned in the text; in fact, the passage would have been far more specific in that case.

Yes it does. The book is rife with additional background information pertaining to the narrative, and it frequently employs brand-new quotes from characters such as Mon Mothma, and in-universe historians such as Arhul Hextrophon.

truejedi

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
the current argument aside, the "it is believed" part of that statement really renders the entire statement fallible anyway...

That's true. It cannot be from an omniscient source if the source isn't even sure. Its the same thing that shot me in the face on a Kas'sim argument once when someone pointed out that saying Kas'sim was "perhaps" the greatest swordsman ever meant it couldn't possibly be from an omnscient source.

Elok Quintly

There are various reasons why Sidious would benefit from the implementation of Soresu, one of many being its efficiency in defending against ranged weaponry (although he was shown dispelling blaster bolts with the Force, as in the case of Moff Kadir).

Addendum to previous post: The full quote from the sourcebook is as follows, "Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure." Why would they preface this with the in-universe reference of Palpatine spending decades in study if the passage merely described powers listed in the book? Even if it were, the quote covers powers not yet revealed in the canon by making mention of "previously unknown powers". That could cover anything.

truejedi

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
the current argument aside, the "it is believed" part of that statement really renders the entire statement fallible anyway...

This stands.

Elok Quintly

Fallible wording perhaps, but the information is not entirely invalidated either.

As for Luke defeating Sidious in Dark Empire; the Force Harmony between Luke, Leia, and Anakin Solo is what allowed the rebellious Jedi Master to triumph. Luke's skills with a saber didn't improve that much since their last encounter in Palpatine's cloning labs, where the Sith Lord disarmed Luke with little difficulty.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Won Fei Fon
"It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure".

I'd say it's quite clearly coming from the inside perspective of the story; are we to assume that Sidious breaks the fourth wall at his leisure and designs new techniques from outside of the story for LFL to use in their sourcebooks?

No. We are assuming that the RPG players want to become part of the story and develop it further but according to their own means. That's what the Sourcebooks are written for. They put all the fancy stats in to allow player of the RPG to use those characters. Any information given in a Sourcebook that has not been mentioned elsewhere has to be viewed under that premise.

In that context (important word, almost always ignored around here), the quote does actualy make some sense. People can equip Sidious with all known powers but they can make him shit random force manouvers at will.

In the context of the storyline (which you seem to assume) the statement doesn't make sense. We neither have somebody able to belief that Sidious knew all techniques (due to the fact that almost nobody did know about his Sith Lord identity) and, in addition to that, we have Sidious searching for a certain force technique within the storyline (the ability to possess another being), which makes both claims present in the statement rather absurd.

Where are you getting this notion from? So far as I'm aware, only the RPG statistics are regarded as N-Canon, seeing as to how they're only applicable to game mechanics.

That "notion" can be found in the LFL canon policy (Holocron), specifically mentioning that everything not being "storyline" is not to be viewed as canon. The idea that Sidious mastered X powers and could design new ones at will, is clearly not storyline related. In fact it blatantly contradicts the entire "Empire's End" storyline.

It refers to the known powers within the storyline as it was in June 1993. Claiming anything else is a stupid violation of logical analysis of the source material. Especially when the next thing released (Empire's End in 1995) does already contradict the statement by making Sidious search for a knowledge how to remain alive. Knowledge later given to him by the Ancient Sith. If he knew "all known powers", he would have had the knowledge before actually acquiring it.

That aside, the canon policy in the holocron labels "many of the older works" (citing "Han Solo's Adventures" as example which was released at the same time as DE) are just secondary canon, which can be ignored because it was put together before any continuity was established and maintained - unless it appears in newer sources.

Unless that informations are later officially introduced into canon, they aren't canon at all. Again I can only refer to the general idea behind the Sourcebooks. Those things are fodder for SW:RPG players and were not written with the intention to expand the original storyline.

And, that aside: Don't try to devert the attention away from the fact that you used a vague statement, that is probably outdated and may refer to RPG powers instead of in universe force powers in an attempt to prove your point. An attempt during which you claimed that said vague statement was given by an "omniscient" narrator, which alone is quite hilarious.

Your little argument is pretty much destroyed, so why do you keep arguing?

truejedi

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Fallible wording perhaps, but the information is not entirely invalidated either.

As for Luke defeating Sidious in Dark Empire; the Force Harmony between Luke, Leia, and Anakin Solo is what allowed the rebellious Jedi Master to triumph. Luke's skills with a saber didn't improve that much since their last encounter in Palpatine's cloning labs, where the Sith Lord disarmed Luke with little difficulty.

You will have a difficult time proving any of this.

Especially the first sentence.

oh, and as to the bolded portion: Obviously they did. He lost to Sidious in that first encounter, and defeated him in the second. What further proof of improvement do you need?

Elok Quintly

Originally posted by Borbarad
Your little argument is pretty much destroyed, so why do you keep arguing?
Because your condescending disposition is rather droll in light of your own fallacies.

Let's review shall we? First, you claim entire screenplays are G-canon, when they very clearly are not. Second, you are now claiming that Sidious sought additional powers in Empire's End. I can only assume you've either never read Empire's End, or possess insufficient memory of the material. Palpatine never pursues new powers; instead, he seeks out the ancient Sith spirits on Korriban in order to command that they restore his contaminated flesh. When this fails, they inform him of the location of Anakin Solo, whom he's planned to use as his new host body since the first Dark Empire. The power he needs to accomplish this--transfer essence--has been known to him for quite some time prior to Dark Empire.

Third, you claim that the material present in the Dark Empire Sourcebook is S-canon. This rebuttal is dubious at best, given that S-canon generally covers material predating the Thrawn trilogy, such as the Marvel comics. Give me a statement from Leland Chee explaining how the DESB is S-canon, and I will concede. While you're at it, give me the quote from Mr. Chee saying that background information provided by sourcebooks is not C-canon.

Gideon

TJ
What further proof of improvement do you need?

You do realize that those battles weren't days, weeks, or months apart, yes? After he defeated Luke, they went straight from Byss to find Leia on Da Shoocha V, where Luke bested him in combat.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Gideon
You do realize that those battles weren't days, weeks, or months apart, yes? After he defeated Luke, they went straight from Byss to find Leia on Da Shoocha V, where Luke bested him in combat.

TJ brings up a good point in that Luke didn't seem to notice that he was being amped, so the effect probably wasn't extreme, ie it didn't bring him to FOTJ Luke level.

truejedi

Originally posted by Gideon
You do realize that those battles weren't days, weeks, or months apart, yes? After he defeated Luke, they went straight from Byss to find Leia on Da Shoocha V, where Luke bested him in combat.

So then, it is more likely that Luke and Sidious were at similar levels of combat ability? Sidious happened to win the first fight, Luke happened to win the second. Once again, the reason the NBA plays best of 7.

Gideon

That's entirely possible.

It's also possible that Leia was intervening on his behalf during the lightsaber duel, hence her reply of "I already am ."

Hewhoknowsall

Either way though, FOTJ Luke is >> Sidious in sabers.

truejedi

maybe so. I don't think how much she was helping is quantifiable however, and the fact that he wasn't even aware of her help doesn't do much to support a platform that it was making a gigantic difference.

Gideon

TJ
maybe so. I don't think how much she was helping is quantifiable however, and the fact that he wasn't even aware of her help doesn't do much to support a platform that it was making a gigantic difference.

And he has to feel the difference in order for it to be significant, why?

truejedi

You can certainly make that argument. It, as I said, doesn't seem the likely one though. Being helped in combat is something it seems you would be aware of, as referenced in Rule of Two. Every Jedi in the room knew the second their Battle Meditation Master was killed.

Elok Quintly

What time did Luke have to hone his saber skills? After that duel, they immediately set course for Da Soocha V aboard the Eclipse. During that small period, he was in the immediate presence of Darth Sidious at all times.

Moreover, Leia and Anakin Solo were using Force harmony to assist Luke, as Leia says. She claims she has been assisting him even before Luke requests it. "Two are more powerful than one... three are more powerful than two. I felt another join us Luke... my third child."

The following is quoted from the Dark Empire endnotes:
"Here at last, at the terrible moment when he and Leia confront the untrammeled power of the most sinister agent of the Dark Side..." Oh wait, this is irrelevant. Ah well, I like the quote anyway. *ahem*

"... Luke and Leia are united to the Force in all its intensity, and the Force flows through them like a tidal wave of light."

The Dark Empire Sourcebook states that this ability is limited to their Force energy, which refers to their latent power and has little to do with experience, skill, and knowledge. And while Force harmony cannot directly counter dark side power, it can impede it, or cut the dark sider off from the Force completely.

Gideon

TJ
You can certainly make that argument.

It isn't an argument, it's a question.

truejedi

In that case: No, I don't suppose it would be absolutely necessary, but in from the point of view of common sense, I find it unlikely that she could have helped him to a massive degree without his being aware of her help. That is just unprecedented.

So much of the Luke/Sidious debate comes down to opinion anyway (for instance, what force feats are actually greater? Force Storm, or Cloaking a planet?) Its completely subjective.

Gideon

There are powers and manifestations of the Force that can occur without its recipient being aware of it; consider a mind trick: the victim is clearly unaware that he's being manipulated, but that doesn't mean that it isn't happening.

Or it could come down to a matter of sensitivity. Luke's strength in the Force doesn't automatically make his senses absolutely refined, hence why Yoda rather than Anakin (Anakin who, at this point, arguably had a far greater Force-related education than Luke) was more sensitive to the happenings in the Force.

That he didn't sense it doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

Edit: How is the argument completely subjective?

truejedi

Its true. I don't disagree with the supposition. The amount of help, is unfortunately, impossible to measure in this case.

Gideon

TJ
The amount of help, is unfortunately, impossible to measure in this case.

As something of a spectator in this argument, since my opinion on this issue is well-known (I think Palpatine is absolutely capable of killing Skywalker, even as far as Fate of the Jedi, for those who don't know), I'll tell you this: I'm not even sure why the extent of Leia's intervention was brought up at all. The fact that Luke had help at all is what matters.

The Essential Guide to the Force, the Dark Empire Sourcebook, and the plot of the comics themselves make it abundantly clear that Skywalker couldn't defeat Palpatine alone.

Which is why the focus should be on Luke's exploits post-DE.

truejedi

It was coming up as a result of lightsaber ability. Not discussing force usage, i believe, when it was brought up.

EDIT: Also, in my opinion, I think Luke could handle Sidious by DN.

Gideon

I'm curious to see more of Skywalker's positive lightsaber duels. Having argued this contest for so long, the more prominent examples are from the Legacy of the Force series, where he fails to defeat Lumiya, then defeats her a second time, and struggles against Jacen in the middle of battle-rage.

Nephthys

I recall a training exercise in either DN or LOTF. I don't recall it that well but I think it was the other council members vs Luke. I think he handles them easily. Kind of like Yoda's thing.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Because your condescending disposition is rather droll in light of your own fallacies.

Translation: "I have no f*cking idea, Borbarad. Probably I'm afraid to get verbally abused for being a nobody who can't come up with a coherent argument, even if it would bite my ass off". Yup. That sounds right.

The scripts are G-Canon much like everything seen in the movies that is included in the novelizations is G-Canon. And it remains G-canon until a ret-con happens. Point being: You listed ret-cons and attempted to attack the status of the scripts from there. Does that make sense? Hell no. You lose.

Oh. And by what means would the actually have done this, pal? Maybe by using force techniques that Sidious believed to exist but he didn't know about? Maybe the same technique that Nadd used to heal Kun? That would make sense, wouldn't it?

That aside they could have equipped him with a technique to generate himself a new body, which appeared to have existed in the knowledge trove of Naga Sadow. If Sidious was aware of that (and mastered it!!!), why would he need a clone body at all? Hell. Exar Kun, as mentioned in the JA-sourcebook was about to turn his spirit form back into a regular being by draining force power from Luke's students. Why wouldn't Sidious in his spirit form able to do the same, provided he must have mastered that technique too?

But back to the original point: The Sith Lords didn't have any means to do something to Sidious beside using their force abilities, which translates into Sidious wanted to use knowledge / power that he didn't have access to himself but that the Ancient Sith had access to. Point being: I'm completely right, you're wrong.

So after begging them to heal his clone body, which he wasn't capable of, he begs him to track the Jedi Children for him, which means that they are again using the force in a manner that Sidious couldn't?

Wow. You've just added another instance to torpede your own opinion to the scene. Damn effective debating there, jabroni. Maybe I should just lean back and keep watching your self-ownage here.

You do realize that I already knocked you little quote out, thereby destroying your entire argument. Do you really want me to keep humiliating your lack of debating skills and ability to use logical reasoning?

The Holocron database was created in the year 2000. Before that, there wasn't any real database for SW canon, leading to the possibility that all works released prior to that year (with exception of the movies) may actually contain S-Canon elements or be judged as S-Canon. The only - apparent - way to check canon status is if elements from a certain source re-appear in C-Canon (or G-Canon) material.

For this one would need to check the editor history of certain elements present in certain sources, which you apparently wouldn't give a crap about doing, provided that you take anything literal.

Which would still completely ignore the fact that a statement given at point in time "X" does not include information relased at a later point in time "Y". And also the entire intention behind the Sourcebooks.

But who cares about that? It doesn't matter at all, because whether the quote is canon or not: it still can't be used to prove anything because of it's vague nature. Again: I win, you lose.

Gideon

N
I recall a training exercise in either DN or LOTF. I don't recall it that well but I think it was the other council members vs Luke. I think he handles them easily. Kind of like Yoda's thing.

I think that was Legacy of the Force. Fury? (I never bought that one, but I did flip through it.)

I'd like to see the whole passage, though. The problem is that while Luke's superiority over the rest of the Council is pretty much unquestionable, it also happened to be a training exercise.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Gideon
As something of a spectator in this argument, since my opinion on this issue is well-known (I think Palpatine is absolutely capable of killing Skywalker, even as far as Fate of the Jedi, for those who don't know), I'll tell you this: I'm not even sure why the extent of Leia's intervention was brought up at all. The fact that Luke had help at all is what matters.

Because if there was just a small intervention of Leia, leading to Luke defeating Sidious, his post-DE persona could most likely score that victory on his own, given the dramatic increase of power / ability / knowledge Luke went through in the 30 years after that.

Gideon

I agree that he could (as in is capable of) kill the Emperor, but I read the majority of Legacy of the Force (with the exception of Fury) and I saw Luke lose badly to a a Vader-esque cyborg-woman he defeated before Dark Empire.

That formula isn't absolute and it's certainly not enough (for me, at least) to conclude this discussion.

truejedi

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm curious to see more of Skywalker's positive lightsaber duels. Having argued this contest for so long, the more prominent examples are from the Legacy of the Force series, where he fails to defeat Lumiya, then defeats her a second time, and struggles against Jacen in the middle of battle-rage.

NJO also provides some darn good examples. Unless you want to suppose that Luke's victories were inferior to Sidious's victories. FOTJ alone said that Jacen was the 2nd greatest swordsman in the galaxy. You can't find anyone better than that for Luke to test his mettle against, and he won.

I mean, Sidious's ability with a saber pretty much comes down to his owning of the B team, ability to prolong a duel with Mace, and getting disarmed by Yoda, am I right?

There are many many many accolades about Luke's lightsaber prowess, in ADDITION to his feats.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Gideon
I agree that he could (as in is capable of) kill the Emperor, but I read the majority of Legacy of the Force (with the exception of Fury) and I saw Luke lose badly to a a Vader-esque cyborg-woman he defeated before Dark Empire.

That formula isn't absolute and it's certainly not enough (for me, at least) to conclude this discussion.

You yourself conceded before that Luke would take sabers/all out but not Force.

truejedi

Luke also needed luck and an extra light saber, and mara jade's help to defeat a single destroyer droid. The one most ridiculous moment in perhap all of star wars. The combat formula isn't concrete. We can't ever really say for sure that Luke is going to win 10 out of 10 fights over anyone, even say, Han Solo. Han might get in a lucky shot.

Gideon

TJ
NJO also provides some darn good examples.

I'd like to see them and please be as detailed as possible.

Possibly.

Source and exact quote, please.

He won the fight, there's no denying it. But he also was in the middle of battle-rage (we all know how that tends to enhance one's skills), the element of surprise (which enabled him to focus on the confrontation ahead, unlike Jacen), and he had assistance from Ben.

Careful. Those swordsmen were acclaimed for their ability; I've provided the statements and sources before.

If you'd be so kind as to provide similar accolades for Lumiya and Jacen?

The novelization indicates that his out-of-practice skill was sufficient enough to equal Mace's Vaapad, the deadliest fighting form.

Prove he was disarmed.

truejedi

Originally posted by Gideon
I agree that he could (as in is capable of) kill the Emperor, but I read the majority of Legacy of the Force (with the exception of Fury) and I saw Luke lose badly to a a Vader-esque cyborg-woman he defeated before Dark Empire.

That formula isn't absolute and it's certainly not enough (for me, at least) to conclude this discussion.

Are you talking about the fight on the space station where Lumiya was rigged with explosives? Luke was damaged badly in that fight, and by no means controlled it, but if I remember correctly, he DID beat her,right? He just couldn't kill her or she would have exploded.

Gideon

Edit: Luke lost the duel (he was disarmed and on his back), but won the fight (he shot her).

TJ
Luke also needed luck and an extra light saber, and mara jade's help to defeat a single destroyer droid. The one most ridiculous moment in perhap all of star wars. The combat formula isn't concrete. We can't ever really say for sure that Luke is going to win 10 out of 10 fights over anyone, even say, Han Solo. Han might get in a lucky shot.

Which is why there needs to be more of a discussion than just repeating "Luke nearly beat Sidious in DE, he got better, therefore he wins."

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
You yourself conceded before that Luke would take sabers/all out but not Force.

truejedi

we have done those SOOO many times Gideon. I don't think there is ENOUGH out there to satisfy you, because you have been aware of them in the past, even if you have, like me, forgotten some of them.

I'm not planning on hunting them down. I'd have to go to a library probably to find NJO, i have most of the LotF, but finding the page numbers and typing them out again? And Dark Nest? I'd need to amazon it.

Before I do that much, I'll settle for you being unconvinced.
smile

If anyone else wants to do the work, be my guest.

gollumizer

Originally posted by truejedi
.

Before I do that much, I'll settle for you being unconvinced.
smile

If anyone else wants to do the work, be my guest.

Pass

truejedi

Oh, also, in reference to the Sidious post:

The B team was referred to as "Perhaps some of the greatest swordsbeings the jedi order had ever produced." Keyword: Perhaps. Then they went in, and proved it wasn't true.

Kit Fisto is the only one to have any other accolades to his name at all.

What you said about Mace is true. its why I posted it as a feat, i was not meaning to belittle sidious by saying it.

With Yoda: You yourself posted the place from the screenplay where Sidious was disarmed. It also says he disarmed him in the Jr. Novelization if what Elok posted is correct.

Gideon

TJ
The B team was referred to as "Perhaps some of the greatest swordsbeings the jedi order had ever produced." Keyword: Perhaps. Then they went in, and proved it wasn't true.

No, I was referring to the line in the Complete Visual Dictionary where it calls the three of them "celebrated swordmasters," in addition to the opinions of Obi-Wan Kenobi from the Stover novelization and their individual accolades from either the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia or the official databank.

It helps when you're aware of all the evidence before you make blind assumptions about "the B team."

Now where are your accolades for Jacen and Lumiya?

False. All three of them are given accolades in their respective entries in both the Encyclopedia and databank; Kit Fisto is the one with the most notable feats to his name.

Go back to where I posted it and read the subsequent points that discredit the screenplay, in that instance, as a credible source.

Where are junior novelizations in the canon hierarchy?

Borbarad

Originally posted by Gideon
I agree that he could (as in is capable of) kill the Emperor, but I read the majority of Legacy of the Force (with the exception of Fury) and I saw Luke lose badly to a a Vader-esque cyborg-woman he defeated before Dark Empire.

I attempted to explain this once: Luke had his son first "brainwashed" and then threatened by his very own nephew. Then he had his beloved wife killed. And we both know that Luke is always best when he's able of maintaining a clear focus on the force. This is a pivotal point in pretty much all of his "over the top" showing. He remains calm, focused - even if in danger - and solves the situation with a DXM manouver.

There has to be an explanation for Luke being inable to overcome an opponent that he has beaten before under apparently much less favorable circumstances from his point of view.

Well. Of course there isn't an absolute in that debate, because absolutes don't exists in the realm of VS fights (remember my words?), even when you have a rematch (change of circumstances, surroundings) or stake the odds against one character (hell: Han Solo blinded accidentally nearly killing Boba Fett by swinging a stick around, anybody?).

But in a VS-fight, the general rule is to take the character in his "top shape" capable of executing all abilities he used (with the exception of such unreasonable in 1vs1 situations - e.g. force storms) that he could perform all by himself before.

That would leave Luke with:
- invisibility
- turning himself unsenseable in the force
- becoming an immoveable object (translation: impenetrable force defense)
- at least one instakill ability (green sparks)
- force offense enough to pin somebody with the power of at least Vader (Caedus) down with apparent ease

So ignoring Luke's character traits, PIS / CIS and the fact that SW stories need a plot that lasts longer than the three words "Simply call Luke", Master Skywalker could simply wipe anybody from existance because, technically, they can't even fight him (invisibile, unsenseable, impenetrable force defense), while he could simply assault any opponent like a WoW Rogue on crack aimed with a lightsaber.

Of course, that wouldn't happen in universe and it's pretty pointless to have a VS-match without anything that could be recognized as a fight happening. But technically, every match involving past Black Fleet Crisis Luke should end with a lightsaber blade out of nowhere through one of his opponents vital spots.

Hewhoknowsall

Couldn't Luke just cloak himself in the Force whilst making himself invisible as well, and then just decapitate Palpatine?

And in the Force fight, he could just root himself in the Force like he did in Dark Nest; Palpatine won't be able to TK him, and if he uses Force lightning Luke just activates his lightsaber to block it, and, sense he's rooting himself in the Force so that a supermassive black hole can't move him, the lightning will just bounce off.

Elok Quintly

You style yourself a competent and superior debater, yet you're making use of ad hominem? Is that not hypocrisy?

Cut content is not G-canon. Anything in the scripts that do not appear in the movies are rendered N-canon--thus only the aspects of the screenplays that translate to the movies are considered G-canon. I also never listed any retcons. Retroactive continuity would be what Abel G. Pena did with Triclops in Aliens of the Empire.

First of all, the DESB uses the descriptor "nearly". It never states that he mastered every single power ever, just that he mastered nearly every single power ever. Second, the ancient Sith were incapable of healing Palpatine. There is no evidence in Empire's End to prove that the Sith spirits knew anything Palpatine didn't know, the latter was merely desperate for a way to avoid his impending doom. Furthermore, the ancients merely directed Sidious to a Sith artifact/orb that allowed him to see the location of Anakin Solo himself. And if we're going to mention feats, perhaps we should also note Sithisis, which depicts Darth Sidious summoning nondescript Sith spirits from the Chancellor Palpatine Surgical Reconstruction Center on Coruscant to do his bidding. As for your source, I will reread the Jedi Academy Sourcebook to clarify your claim--not that it makes that much of a difference.

So quick to assume you've won. Again, not a very professional debating technique.

What you are providing for me is your own interpretation of how S-canon works, rather than explicit cited statements from Leland Chee saying anything prior to the creation of the Holocron Database is deemed S-canon. This is what you are interpreting:
"The database does indeed have a canon field. Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. There is secondary "S" continuity canon which we use for some older published materials and things that may or may not fit just right. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes "C". Similarly, any "C" canon item that makes it into the films can become "G" canon. Lastly there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction or for things that have been cut.

I will not go into specifics as to what is considered "S" canon or what items that are seemingly "C" canon are actually "G" canon."
This last statement renders the classification of S-canon entirely subjective to Leland Chee and LFL--it does not expound any further on the matter aside from the fact that some select older materials may be considered S-canon, or anything else that LFL believes doesn't quite fit as well as they'd like.

Leland Chee also says this:
"'...continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else.' By everything else I mean EVERYthing else. Novels, comics, junior novels, videogames, trading card games, roleplaying games, toys, websites, television. As I've mentioned earlier, any contradictions that arise are dealt on a case-by-case."

Sidious also has instant kill chain lightning--as seen in Star Wars: Empire 4: Betrayal, Part 4--and normal lightning as evidenced by Empire's End.

And why are you ruling out Force storm as a viable 1v1 power? He intended to use it against Luke and Leia in Dark Empire, and has enough control over it to choose what he wants annihilated, and what he wants to emerge unscathed. How do we know this? The surface of Coruscant was ripped to shreds--along with everything else in the Force storm's path--aside from Luke and R2-D2.

Oh, and your comments about Naga Sadow are funny. Palpatine opined that Naga Sadow was in fact too generous with his knowledge, insinuating that the ancient Sith left nearly all of his techniques behind for Palpatine's erudition.

gollumizer

So far I agree with gideon luke did have help, the amount is a moot point it doesnt matter, it was an intervention thereby making a one on one duel a three on one, there for any verdict from that battle is thrown out and considered irrelevent

Borbarad

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
You style yourself a competent and superior debater, yet you're making use of ad hominem? Is that not hypocrisy?

Please, kid. Leave the latin out of business, if you don't know what it means. An "ad hominem" argument means that you assault an debaters stance by assaulting the debater. Did I really do that? Did I say something in the line of "Well. Elok Quintly is obviously a dumbass so anything he might say does automatically suck"? That would be an "ad hominem". I'm simply mocking you for entertainment purpose.

Excuse me.
The LFL canon policy clearly says that Lucas words, no matter what, are G-canon. Lucas writes the scripts themselves. So they are G-canon as it is. Is cut content automatically N-canon?
I'd love to see a reasonable argument for that assumption. When something is removed from the movie, due to the entire thing being to damn long (listen to Lucas on the RotS DVD extras) we should ignore it, while stuff happening in the novel - but not in the movie - must still be C-canon.

Which doesn't matter in our special case of Yoda disarming Sidious. Because: "Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it". Yoda disarming Sidious also happens in the RotS comic, which happens to be a canon source. So it's valid.

Wow. Now you're nitpicking about the "nearly" while still ignoring the "it is believed". Hypocrisy much? You are still trying to defend already defeated points. That's called acting like a broken record in this realms here.

I don't assume. I merely state facts. And provided that you've failed to counter a single of my arguments, but instead decided to litter the place with pretty much pointless rants, the fact remains the same. *shrugs*

I make this as simple as it can be: If there isn't another source that claims Sidious mastered "nearly all" known techniques or even an amount of techniques coming close to that, we can ignore that statement. Which we could do anyway, provided the "it is believed" qualifier, which you still keep ignoring.

Has he used it against a guy with Luke's force defense? Much more against a target which he could neither see nor sense?

I must have missed the instance where Sidious summoned one in the middle of a battle. Or are you assuming that Luke has a Martini while waiting for Sidious to finish his conjuration, after which Luke will use his dovin-basal-defeating-telekinesis to shove that thing straight back into Sidious. Which again ignores the idea that hitting an invisible and unsenseable enemy with a force attack can be quite...hard...

So Sidious was simply too dumb to utilize it and instead went on with a line of clones that were extremely vunerable to the Dark Side energies he controlled and thusly aged in a very fast pace? After that, instead of creating himself a new body, he rather spents his days with pursuing another part to immortality which results in him getting shot and his spirit trapped - when he could have simply walked into the next Sith Alchemy lab to get himself a new body ? Or, I don't know - just die to possess one of his minions for a brief period of time in order to archive that task? Or do it Kun-style and create himself a new physical shape by force draining others (e.g. his minions / the entire population of Byss)?

Really. That makes no sense. If Sidious was in posession of that knowledge, he would have used it. And please: How can Sidious cast a judgement on how generous Sadow was with his knowledge, when he can't know how much knowledge a living Sadow had access to? If I hand you a book with extremely valueable teachings, you may think I'm generous. If it's just one of 1000 similar books, that picture might change...

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Borbarad
I (Nai the loser)'m simply mocking you for entertainment purpose.
(wtf??????)

Do you have morals?

Elok Quintly

Facts? You're still making arguments that are grounded in your subjective interpretation of LFL canon policy, rather than using direct statements made by Leland Chee to support your argument that the material I'm referencing is S-canon. You're making the assumption that because we have no way of knowing what is S-canon and what isn't, we can somehow extrapolate the canon status of specific works after a certain amount of additional research. This is naught but conjecture. Therefore given the guidelines we do have, the DESB and all the information contained within--save for RPG statistics--is C-canon unless otherwise specified by LFL. Your assumption that unreferenced information in the DESB is S-canon by virtue of age is nothing but an assumption.

And since you failed to respond to my previous rebuttal concerning the true events of Empire's End, I'm going to be like you and assume I won that little argument.

I never said the quote was incontrovertible, so I'm not being a hypocrite. I merely never conceded that the quote was entirely invalid.

Take this one up with Palpatine. And while you're at it, mind providing the source that says Naga Sadow was capable of generating a new physical form for himself?

Gideon

Apologies for the delay, but the internet at my father's house is unreliable.

Unless I'm mistaken, there is no explicit rule here that dictates that only a character's high end feats apply, not their low end ones. In fact, such a rule would fly in the face of the principle of canon. In order to engage in these debates, we are compelled to take canon feats, accolades, and events from canon sources -- we aren't authorized or allowed to simply pull them from our asses. That indicates quite clearly and quite strongly that canon is what matters.

Though some of us don't like it, Lumiya's defeat of Luke is just as canon and just as valid as Luke's defeat of her. I'm not going to pick and choose, nor will I discuss this with those who do. Luke demonstrates powers and skills that would enable him to defeat the Emperor, true, but Palpatine also demonstrates powers and skills far beyond the likes of certain foes who were able to challenge and defeat Luke.

I'm not going to get into the whole PIS/CIS melee again. As far as I'm concerned, it's pointless. You say Luke's defeats are the result of plot induced stupidity and one can easily turn the same argument against his sometimes equally-ridiculous victories. I'm not getting in the middle of it and instead prefer to look at a more encompassing view of the character.

There's a reason I really didn't step foot into this discussion and only responded to TJ's dubious claims and points.

But I stand by my opinion.

truejedi

Nothing wrong with that. I actually prefer that, I also stand by mine, and as I've said, there is clearly no winner in a format that leaves in so much room for opinion. I've no intention of going point for point over this again. You have had the information in the past, and it didn't convince you then, why would it now?

Gideon

I don't take issue with the entirety of your conclusion; as I said, Luke certainly demonstrates enough power and skill to kill the Emperor.

Where we differ is how you arrive to that conclusion: you're a lot less willing or able (or both?) to provide a wide range of accolades and feats, as demonstrated in this thread, and you seem eager to chuck entire sections of the story out the window and label it "PIS."

The other difference is, of course, that I believe that Palpatine has shown sufficient power and skill to kill Luke as well.

truejedi

what? I don't disagree with any of what you just posted. I agree with that. I just think in a fight, Luke is more likely to win. As I said, in combat, you never really can tell. My money, in a betting situation though, would be on luke.

Dr McBeefington

Uh Nai, not to rain on your parade, but "mocking for entertainment purposes" is still considered an ad hominem. Nobody cares why you're doing it, it doesn't diminish the fallacy. Just pointing that out before you continue your sarcastic rant. Carry on smile

Borbarad

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Do you have morals?

Do you have brain-cells?

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Facts? You're still making arguments that are grounded in your subjective interpretation of LFL canon policy, rather than using direct statements made by Leland Chee to support your argument that the material I'm referencing is S-canon. You're making the assumption that because we have no way of knowing what is S-canon and what isn't, we can somehow extrapolate the canon status of specific works after a certain amount of additional research. This is naught but conjecture. Therefore given the guidelines we do have, the DESB and all the information contained within--save for RPG statistics--is C-canon unless otherwise specified by LFL. Your assumption that unreferenced information in the DESB is S-canon by virtue of age is nothing but an assumption.

Firstly: I'd like you to read what I type down, if you want to get into an argument with me. That helps a lot. I said that the DESB (and everything released pre-2000) can contain S-canon information, because it was released during a time where LFL didn't have an actual "canon library" they could have checked to avoid continuity mistakes. And to exclude this possibility, one would technically need to validate any information present using another source released post 2000. Do you want to question this statement? Then please, do it, but don't attempt to strawman me.

Secondly: I'd like to point out (for the umpteenth time), that this entire side-argument is pretty much pointless, provided that we started of with you attempting to pass speculation down as fact. Remember? Gee.

Oh, really? You want more asskicking? Here it comes: Sidious visits Korriban, because he wants to get his body healed. Obviously he either knew or assumed that the Sith Lord there could do something that he was inable of doing himself. When the Sith spirit tells him that this isn't possible, because the body has "yielded to necrosis", Sidious still believes that they could heal him if they wanted, screaming "You deny me this?" at them. So he wasn't in search of knowledge / power to save his body? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Yet even if the Sith really couldn't heal him (which is debateable), they were definetely ahead of him in the Jedi Children search business. Yes. It was done with an artifact - a Sith artifact, constructed by Sith using Sith magic / alchemy or, in short, the force. So, again, he requested their help in form of knowledge / power that he didn't have access to. Which was the entire point.

No?

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
You mean all those Force abilities Sidious can purportedly utilize as well, given the canonical statement in the Dark Empire Sourcebook that posits Sidious can use nearly every power, while simultaneously granting him the latitude to pull any newly-concocted application of the Force that he desires out of his anal cavity?

What's that? Did you type that down? Is that you omitting the "It is believed" in an attempt to pass down the quote as fact, as a basis to state that Sidious can use everything Luke could use - including technique that Luke invented himself. Gosh. No. That clearly can't be the case, since you aren't a moron who would do such things, right? roll eyes (sarcastic)

So you're not just a moron but a complete moron. Because a mysterious somebody does believe something, there has to be some validity in that statement? So if I believe that I'm a super-villain who can obliterate star-systems with a mere thought, I'm not a candidate for a nice vacation in a padded cell. No. There must be some truth contained within that statement... roll eyes (sarcastic)

Sorry. The quote is invalid because we don't have a source for that belief. It's - de facto - even less valid than a belief that you, me or "Stone Cold" Steve Austin utters in relation to the power of an SW character, because one could analyze the SW knowledge of an individual uttering such a belief and thereby make an educated guess if it's valid, somewhat accurate or complete bullshit. Here, we can't do that, rendering that statement completely useless.

I don't have to "take this one up with Palpatine". You have to take it up with logical reasoning and the idea that source in the SW universe can have different levels of validity. This could be an enticing experience in contrast to take everything literal and at face value that helps your case.

That aside: Freedon Nadd states that Sadow was in possession of the knowledge to create a new body for a force spirit. He demanded from Kun to use said knowledge in order to equip him with a new body, right before Kun annihilated him. Likewise the Jedi Academy Sourcebook claims that Kun would have been able to create himself a new body, once he would have gathered enough energy. And since Kun learned pretty much anything from the stuff Sadow left behind, it's reasonable to assume that the Ancient Sith Lord did possess said knowledge.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Uh Nai, not to rain on your parade, but "mocking for entertainment purposes" is still considered an ad hominem. Nobody cares why you're doing it, it doesn't diminish the fallacy. Just pointing that out before you continue your sarcastic rant. Carry on smile

Uh, DS. Not to point out your lack of knowledge in the field once again, but "ad hominem" describes the action of linking the validity of an argument to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument, thereby attempting to attack the arguments validity. Again: Did I do that? No. I mocked him, yes. But not with the intention to assault one of his arguments.

I could have done it by linking his self-set status of "Sidious worshipper" to any pro-Sidious argument he handed in. But that's, frankly, no fun for me.

Which is, by the way, the reason why I just typed down the explanation above, instead of simply stating that you - as somebody hating philosophy as a subject - would clearly be the last person capable of giving a lecture on technical terms from that field of study. That would have been an example of "ad hominem".

Hewhoknowsall

@Nai:

So an ad hominem > what you're doing, because an ad hominem is actually talking about the validy of an argument through a semi-valid way, whereas you're throwing out a random insult just for the fun of it, just like how many Sith Lords in Star Wars murder people just for the fun of it.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Gideon
Unless I'm mistaken, there is no explicit rule here that dictates that only a character's high end feats apply, not their low end ones. In fact, such a rule would fly in the face of the principle of canon. In order to engage in these debates, we are compelled to take canon feats, accolades, and events from canon sources -- we aren't authorized or allowed to simply pull them from our asses. That indicates quite clearly and quite strongly that canon is what matters.

This doesn't make sense, Gideon.

Of course we have to take feats and accolades from canon sources. The point is that you'll never be able to arrive at any conclusion how powerful a character is, when you don't stick to his highest showings but instead take the lowest possible showings into consideration, even such things clearly attributed to PIS.

Otherwise, one could arrive at the conclusion that everybody strong enough to lift Sidious sorry ass up can defeat the Emperor if some reactor shaft is near, provided his force lightning couldn't even stop Vader from doing so, who was encased in a suit making him extremely vunerable to that kind of attack. Does that make sense?

Of course her defeat of him is valid. The point is: Could she do that every day under any giving circumstances, with a Luke willing to use anything he could use against her? That's what a VS-debate is all about and not just taking incidences shown, pick what you like (low showings, high showings) and base you judgement on that. If that were the case, one could, in a fight between Luminara and Luke, simply say "He / She will win, because he has done that before" without taking any circumstances into consideration. That would fly in the face of the principles of canon.

That might be your own perspective of what you do, Gideon. But the matter of fact is, that by eleminating any out of universe ideas (such as intent of the author, PIS, CIS whatever) from the equation, you'll never be able to come up with an accurate guess on how a character works or how powerful he is. In fact that would torpede the purpose of VS fights. As example: Luke would, probably, never use an instakill on a regular opponent. Does that mean we should ignore the possibility that he could do that?

Borbarad

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
@Nai:

So an ad hominem > what you're doing, because an ad hominem is actually talking about the validy of an argument through a semi-valid way, whereas you're throwing out a random insult just for the fun of it, just like how many Sith Lords in Star Wars murder people just for the fun of it.

Are you really that dense?

Everytime I have to read one of your replies, some of my braincells commit suicide, because not being able to stand such utter stupidity. So you posting here is equivalent to murder over time, which means that - provided you have any morals - you have to stop posting here right now. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Ms.Marvel

you did totally ignore everything he said and just insult him just now though mmm

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Borbarad
Are you really that dense?

Everytime I have to read one of your replies, some of my braincells commit suicide, because not being able to stand such utter stupidity. So you posting here is equivalent to murder over time, which means that - provided you have any morals - you have to stop posting here right now. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Funny, you didn't actually respond to what I was saying.

Oh, and you haven't responded to our PM debate. Probably because you can't justify saying that "Sidious would get smoked in seconds by any ancient Sith"

Borbarad

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Funny, you didn't actually respond to what I was saying.

That's maybe because you were actually stupid enough to compare mocking people to killing people, which led me to assume that you're either 10 years old or make Forrest Gump look like a rocket scientist - with both of said ideas leading to the consideration that every second talking to you is a waste of time. Did I make myself clear?

Actually, you can find the real reason for me not further responding to you in the paragraph I just typed above. Provided that I'm talking to you, I will make it clear just once again: I consider every second of talking to you a pointless waste of time and I will not engage in such activities, if I have anything better to do. Like, just as example, attempting to teach my goldfish some algebra or how to fly, which - let me put an emphasis on this point once more - would still make more sense than participating in any kind of discussion with yourself.

I hope you got it now because, quite frankly, I'm not willing to paint you a nicely colored picture in order to make you understand.

Elok Quintly

Apparently you are unaware of what "purportedly" means. Why don't you look it up in the dictionary before continuing your needlessly condescending tirade?

Or we can just assume it's C-canon unless stated otherwise, like everyone else but you does. One doesn't technically need to do anything in this case. I agree that your method is logically sound; however, we still cannot assume that merely because something has not yet been referenced in another work, that it is S-canon. I'm also sure the Holocron continuity database is rather lacking, given that official Star Wars authors such as Pablo Hidalgo reference Wookieepedia, and even cite the help of Wookieepedians in books such as Star Wars: The Essential Atlas.

That mysterious somebody, being the narrator of the text, would be far more informed than you or I, and thus we cannot discard his/her statement entirely. Since we're obviously never going to agree on this, I'll opt to discontinue further discussion on said topic.

If Kun learned everything he knows from material Sadow left behind, then we can assume that Palpatine uncovered it as well, given that Palpatine had access to all of the knowledge in Sadow's holocron. This can be further proved by the fact that Palpatine appeared to have an intimate knowledge of the events surrounding Sadow, Nadd, and Kun.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Apparently you are unaware of what "purportedly" means. Why don't you look it up in the dictionary before continuing your needlessly condescending tirade.

Oh sorry. In that light it just didn't make sense that you brought up the quote at all...

As a matter of fact, most things appearing in one source have been mentioned by another, so there wouldn't be much of a problem with that line of thought. And it's rather hard to believe that a database lacks...
The statistics for it (in 2006) were:

* Sources: 1,180
* Images: 9,503
* Characters: 8,742
* Planets: 3,419
* Aliens: 756
* Creatures: 1,255
* Vehicles: 2,716
* Weapons: 1,130
* Groups: 1,641

That are more than 20000 articles where Wookipedia, I give you that, has four times as much, which includes many one liners just referencing another article.

How is this belief coming from the narrator?
The narrator does himself point to another mysterious source for that belief in the fashion of "people believed that...". If that line of thought would have come from the narrator or any other source that deserves to be taken into consideration, said source would have been named, regardless if it was the narrator, historians, people who studied the ways of the force or merely some SW fans.

Which doesn't happen. That, and the fact that this entire Sourcebook is written to have people play some role in the SW universe, the only valid idea that I see is that the line was put in to allow Game Masters to have Sidious - as you did put it - "pull any newly-concocted application of the Force that he desires out of his anal cavity", as the idea of the RPG allows (for example) to fight Sidious, with could be quite complicated in a stat-based enviroment. Thusly a line like "I can defeat Sidious because I have an attack skill that totally owns his defense" can easily be countered with "He uses force-delete-character on your char and you simply vanish".

Wrong.
There wasn't something like "Sadow's holocron". Sadow left some knowledge in Adas holocron which remained in Sith space (on Ashas Rae more specifically) when Sadow escaped to Yavin 4. Sadow did continue his experiments in Sith Alchemy while exiled, apparently for decades or possible even centuries, with all additional knowledge he gained there not being stored in the holocron.

That aside, I've already mentioned before: One can't be sure that Sadow did even put all he knew into that holocron. The various comments made to Revan when he did visit the Sith Academy in KotoR do actually suggest that Sith kept their most valueable knowledge for themselves.

And I don't see how some historic knowledge is proof for Sidious having access to Sadow's force knowledge. I doubt Voran Na'al was a force god...

SIDIOUS 66

You do realize that Sidious was very desparate and had gone mad at this point? If he truly believed the ancient Sith Lords knew a way to heal his body or create a new one, wouldn't he have sought their advice long ago instead of wasting time cloning new bodies or finding a new host for his spirit?

Elok Quintly

Well, nice to know that we're being somewhat cordial now. I initially brought up the quote not because I'm an irrational Sidious fanboy, but because I believe--similar to Gideon's reasoning--that a true match between Luke and Sidious is an absurd engagement between two characters that are virtual Force deities. They possess powers and knowledge in excess of any other, and this renders both characters "God Mode Sues". Consequently, I also believe determining a clear victor in a hypothetical conflict is nigh-impossible given each characters' propensity for deus ex machinas and plot-induced abilities (or lack thereof). And yes, I am aware these forums and other forums like this make use of feats to establish proof.

The quote provided by the sourcebook is contestable. We could say it was most likely written as an RPG element, but we don't know for certain; the passage could have been far more specific in that regard. I used it to illustrate Palpatine's ambiguous nature (like that needs any further evidence anyway) and indeterminate level of power. For all we know, Sidious could also travel through time with his Force storms given what transpired with Darth Rivan, or artificially augmented the level of midichlorians in his clone bodies to achieve a greater connection to the Force--although I do not wish to contest these things at the current time as they are mere conjecture.

We don't know the amount of detail that goes into these entries, however. There has to be some reason why the continuity buffs that write the essential guides would seek knowledge from Wookieepedia.

I'm afraid you are the one that is incorrect. Naga Sadow did create his own holocron, and it is first mentioned in Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force. Palpatine owns it.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Borbarad
That's maybe because you were actually stupid enough to compare mocking people to killing people, which led me to assume that you're either 10 years old or make Forrest Gump look like a rocket scientist - with both of said ideas leading to the consideration that every second talking to you is a waste of time. Did I make myself clear?

It's called an analogy.

Originally posted by Borbarad

Actually, you can find the real reason for me not further responding to you in the paragraph I just typed above. Provided that I'm talking to you, I will make it clear just once again: I consider every second of talking to you a pointless waste of time and I will not engage in such activities, if I have anything better to do. Like, just as example, attempting to teach my goldfish some algebra or how to fly, which - let me put an emphasis on this point once more - would still make more sense than participating in any kind of discussion with yourself.

I hope you got it now because, quite frankly, I'm not willing to paint you a nicely colored picture in order to make you understand.

I'm not the one that said that Sidious would "get smoked in seconds" by any ancient sith.

Eminence

Hewhoknowsall
@Nai:

So an ad hominem > what you're doing, because an ad hominem is actually talking about the validy of an argument through a semi-valid way, whereas you're throwing out a random insult just for the fun of it, just like how many Sith Lords in Star Wars murder people just for the fun of it. lol, what?

truejedi

Eminence, I agree, that is the worst definition of an ad-hominem i've ever seen.

Hewhoknowsall

Sorry, I didn't mean that was the entire definition of an ad hominem; it was the part of the definition that differed from what Nai was doing, which Nai himself agreed with.

Lord Lucien

How 'bout we just do this.

Elok Quintly

Objection! Wikipedia is not a valid source!

Autokrat

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Objection! Wikipedia is not a valid source!

This is not the college classroom.

Elok Quintly

Originally posted by Autokrat
This is not the college classroom.
Oh right. It's fine then.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Well, nice to know that we're being somewhat cordial now. I initially brought up the quote not because I'm an irrational Sidious fanboy, but because I believe--similar to Gideon's reasoning--that a true match between Luke and Sidious is an absurd engagement between two characters that are virtual Force deities. They possess powers and knowledge in excess of any other, and this renders both characters "God Mode Sues". Consequently, I also believe determining a clear victor in a hypothetical conflict is nigh-impossible given each characters' propensity for deus ex machinas and plot-induced abilities (or lack thereof). And yes, I am aware these forums and other forums like this make use of feats to establish proof.

See. The problem I have with putting Sidious and Luke on the same level is the fact that Lucas clearly mentioned that Luke has by far more force potential than Sidious which - consequently - regardless of techniques learned or knowledge archieved, should lead to a connection to the force that should enable him to conquer anybody else.

Let me just point to the RotS novel: The end of the duel between Anakin and Dooku is descriped in a fashion, that simply makes Anakin decide how to win and suddenly, all of Dooku's (superior) experience, lightsaber skill and force mastery is effectively nullified by a fraction of Anakin's potential being unleashed. From that perspective, I find it rather hilarious to assume, that there is anybody able to stop Luke if he does use his power. Apparently the "black hole in the center of the Galaxy" is not able to archive that - so why would a force storm do it?

The point here is - pretty much - that Luke, much like Anakin, doesn't have perfect control over his potential (yet), but is still able to use it far better than his farther. So if somebody as good as Dooku wasn't able to stop Anakin after 13 years of Jedi training - how is anybody going to stop Luke after four decades in which he refined his abilities?

Sidious might be one of the most powerful and knowledgeable characters in the mythos - but Luke is technically a walking plot-device that has to be kept at bay by the authors by all kinds of (basically illogical) manouvering. If you don't agree with that, you would have to find a logical way to explain the differences between "what Luke should be" or his "godlike showings" and the instances in which he can't defeat a single droideka.

As I said before: To me, the statement is meaningless, because it's just some speculation put in a text. When I write a sentence like "It is believed that Alexander the Great was the greatest tactician in history", there might be reason (even clear evidence) for somebody to hold that belief but it may still be entirely false. And ambigiousity doesn't get one anywhere in a debate or in an attempt to determine the knowledge / power / skill held by a certain individual.

Well. The holocron database is just used as a instance to control if some work to be released contradicts established canon. I doubt that Leland Chee grants the authors access to the holocron, which includes stuff like production notes written by Lucas himself. And given the Chee's own blog, the information in the holocron appears to be rather detailed in nature.

I'm quite afraid, but I think that you are mistaken.
The passage in the Essential Guide to the Force has Sidious saying that he "came across" the knowledge of Sadow in "a holocron" that Sidious has found. Yet the Telos holocron lists Sadow as Gatekeeper and the passage following the words of Sidious has Naga Sadow as author. So Sadow didn't have to construct his own holocron to leave knowledge behind.

That still doesn't affect what I said about the knowledge transfer from Sadow to Sidious. If Sadow had left the knowledge behind while already on Yavin 4, it wouldn't have survived the attack of the Jedi on Exar Kun. So he must have left it behind earlier, which does mean that whatever he learned through his studies on Yavin 4 can't be contained. And it also doesn't change the fact that Sidious couldn't grasp how much of his actual knowledge Sadow left behind.

Elok Quintly

That would make sense I suppose, although it doesn't take into account any modifications Sidious made to his clone bodies, which could possibly enhance his base potential.

The same can be said for Sidious really. Sometimes the guy's practically omniscient (the Trachta arc in Star Wars: Empire was a Palpawank nightmare), other times he's fallible. Sometimes he's seen flying around like Superman (The Force Unleashed, Sithisis) and tanking explosions that destroy entire buildings, yet he can't use his mastery of Force flight to save himself in ROTJ.

Fair enough.

I don't recall there being any statements concerning the exclusivity of Holocron access. I'd assume the authors or at least the editors would need access to it. Sue Rostoni and Leland Chee can't check everything themselves.

Sadow is the only known gatekeeper of this mysterious holocron, therefore we can only ascribe it to him unless previous gatekeepers are revealed--which we know they won't be.

Ah, but Naga Sadow was too generous with his knowledge. Far more generous than I. Also, despite his powers, he was ultimately undone by his own impatience to expand the Sith Empire. After his death, Sadow's secrets were gained by Freedon Nadd, who passed them on to Exar Kun. Because none of them came to a glorious end, I think it's best that I guard Sadow's teachings a bit longer. However, I am tempted to incorporate some of his findings into my own book, The Creation of Monsters.

This passage insinuates that the same teachings left behind to Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun are within Palpatine's possession. It is not unreasonable to assume that Palpatine, being the thorough archaelogist that he is, has uncovered all existing records of Sadow's findings.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

I'm not the one that said that Sidious would "get smoked in seconds" by any ancient sith.

Notice how, when I pull out my best arguments, you suddenly stop responding.

truejedi

That's not really a comeback, that's attacking someone for something they said years ago, when most of the source material we use now wasn't available.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by truejedi
That's not really a comeback, that's attacking someone for something they said years ago, when most of the source material we use now wasn't available.

The source material we had years ago about the ancient sith was equal to or LESS than that of today (unless if a lot of it got retconned), so they'd be equal or even MORE unknowns, so it would be even more ridiculous to call them capable of "smoking Sidious in seconds".

truejedi

we know a lot more about Sidious, and the current Sith, is my point. I believe they took Kreia at her words then, but you are still holding it against them,and using it, as thought it strengthens your own argument (which it DOES NOT) 5 years later.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by truejedi
we know a lot more about Sidious, and the current Sith, is my point. I believe they took Kreia at her words then, but you are still holding it against them,and using it, as thought it strengthens your own argument (which it DOES NOT) 5 years later.

So then why doesn't Nai just admit it? He in our PM's continues to stand by his unsupported opinion. I myself admit that I've made mistakes in some of my older debates, and Nai should be willing to do that as well.

truejedi

Because a lot of star wars comes down to opinion anyway. If he is of the opinion that Kreia was correct, and the source books can be explained away, he is free to do so. gee whiz. This doesn't help your current argument whatsoever. Bringing it up is pointless.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by truejedi
Because a lot of star wars comes down to opinion anyway. If he is of the opinion that Kreia was correct, and the source books can be explained away, he is free to do so. gee whiz. This doesn't help your current argument whatsoever. Bringing it up is pointless.

Well, he didn't use Kreia's comments as evidence, and Kreia never said anything remotely implying that Ragnos could "smoke Sidious in seconds"; heck, I'm not sure if she ever mentioned Ragnos.

Anyhow, Luke takes all except for possibly 2 and 5.

Lord Lucien

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Well, he didn't use Kreia's comments as evidence, and Kreia never said anything remotely implying that Ragnos could "smoke Sidious in seconds"; heck, I'm not sure if she ever mentioned Ragnos.

Anyhow, Luke takes all except for possibly 2 and 5. Stop attacking people for what they said years ago just so you can be right. You don't seem to be someone who condones arguments that are focused around attacking one's opponent's credibility and character. So stop resorting to it. If you want our respect, debate with cold, hard facts. Forget talking about what Nai used to say, or what used to be considered canon. Talk about what's being said NOW.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Stop attacking people for what they said years ago just so you can be right. You don't seem to be someone who condones arguments that are focused around attacking one's opponent's credibility and character. So stop resorting to it. If you want our respect, debate with cold, hard facts. Forget talking about what Nai used to say, or what used to be considered canon. Talk about what's being said NOW.

First of all, what is it with this "condones arguments..."? You took my statement from before COMPLETELY out of context. You should see what context a sentence is in, because otherwise they can have very different meanings. That is one of the most common forms of propaganda. Oh, and I am talking about NOW, because Nai and I were having a debate on Sidious vs Ragnos, and even NOW, using evidence available NOW, still supports Ragnos. And I do always debate using cold, hard facts. I don't remember an argument that I had other than perhaps some of my earlier ones (none of which were in the SW vs forum) in which I didn't have a solid point.

ANYHOW, Luke takes all except possibly 2 and 5.

Lord Lucien

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
First of all, what is it with this "condones arguments..."? You took my statement from before COMPLETELY out of context. You should see what context a sentence is in, because otherwise they can have very different meanings. That is one of the most common forms of propaganda. Oh, and I am talking about NOW, because Nai and I were having a debate on Sidious vs Ragnos, and even NOW, using evidence available NOW, still supports Ragnos. And I do always debate using cold, hard facts. I don't remember an argument that I had other than perhaps some of my earlier ones (none of which were in the SW vs forum) in which I didn't have a solid point. Did you not read the full sentence about "condoning arguments"? I was actually complimenting you, you dolt.

If Nai is still supporting Ragnos' power despite canon to the contrary, then he's wrong. But don't damage your current argument with him by trying to focus back on what was said years ago. We ALL supported the Ancients.

Hewhoknowsall

Oh, I'm sorry, I got the definition for condone wrong.

Elok Quintly

This topic is rife with definition fail.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If Nai is still supporting Ragnos' power despite canon to the contrary, then he's wrong.

Erm. Did I, by chance, miss the canon source that has Ragnos and Sidious fighting with Sidious winning the match? Because if I didn't, there isn't any "canon source" that says Sidious could win a fight against Ragnos - or vice versa.

And let me get this straigth, Hewhoknowsall: I'm not going to discuss that topic with somebody who...

...can't dig around in year old threads, but overlooks stuff discussed weeks ago.
...because of that, propels the "Sidious has been called the most powerful Sith in history" sentence into my face, in an attempt to "prove" that Sidious is the most powerful because a historian and Vader said so. (LMAO)
...ignores my hint to this fact two times and repeats this - his so called "best argument" - like a broken record.
...wouldn't be able to construct a coherent argument, if it would bite his ass off.

That was my last word to you on that matter. Period. And now shut up.

@Elok Quintly
As the point concering Sadows knowledge was the only one we disagreed on (if I got the last posting right):

You have to take into consideration, that the Jedi did pretty much incinerate the entire surface of Yavin 4 when they launched their final attack on Exar Kun. So there probably wasn't much left to find later on, especially if we take into consideration that most of what Sadow had to offer was written on scrolls. Paper usually doesn't survive planet wide fires. That aside: Kun even mentions that he didn't notice any force user on the planet until Luke did arrive for the first time (ANH). He would have noticed Sidious, if he was there.

Because of that it's quite save to assume, that none of the knowledge, that Sadow gained while on Yavin 4, did ever leave the planet.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Borbarad
Erm. Did I, by chance, miss the canon source that has Ragnos and Sidious fighting with Sidious winning the match? Because if I didn't, there isn't any "canon source" that says Sidious could win a fight against Ragnos - or vice versa.

And let me get this straigth, Hewhoknowsall: I'm not going to discuss that topic with somebody who...

...can't dig around in year old threads, but overlooks stuff discussed weeks ago.
...because of that, propels the "Sidious has been called the most powerful Sith in history" sentence into my face, in an attempt to "prove" that Sidious is the most powerful because a historian and Vader said so. (LMAO)
...ignores my hint to this fact two times and repeats this - his so called "best argument" - like a broken record.
...wouldn't be able to construct a coherent argument, if it would bite his ass off.

That was my last word to you on that matter. Period. And now shut up.

1. You have yet to respond to my latest arguments in my PM.
2. You still haven't justified your claim that Sidious would "get smoked in seconds" by any ancient Sith.
3. You have come up with ZERO proof that Ragnos is in any way better; Ragnos is featless.

Dr McBeefington

Well, if the new MMO is to be taken seriously, then Sadow's tomb was preserved and I would assume many of his artifacts in his tomb as well, if they weren't stolen by Nadd or those that came after.

Also, in the comics, Exar Kun's lightsaber somehow gets taken off of Yavin IV.

Elok Quintly

Wasn't it stated in Vader: The Ultimate Guide as well? It's also said on the back of the Emperor Palpatine Ultimate Quarter Scale figure from Diamond Select--not that the latter is a valid canonical source, but don't you find it a bit odd how they'd include it on merchandising?

Lord Lucien

Gideon

Regarding this topic, I stand by my opinion: Luke has certainly had moments in which he's demonstrated sufficient skill and power to take on someone like Palpatine, but I'm simply not convinced that he's in some sort of default uber-state when the dominant trend is to show Luke operating on a power level far less than what you all suggest he is capable of on a day-to-day basis. Palpatine, on the other hand, not only demonstrates power that far outstrips what we've seen from the likes of Caedus and certainly Lumiya, but also a cunning intellect to match. The way I see it is that Luke will be fighting someone who has studied a far greater breadth of Force knowledge, dedicated his life to increasing power rather than wisdom, and is simply more intelligent than he is.

Throwing it up that anyone who is capable of picking Sidious up is capable of killing him isn't valid; Vader's defeat of the Emperor was a far cry from a duel to the death.

Regarding Ragnos vs. Sidious, I would be interested in hearing his opinion on the matter now, but it seems Nai is as eager to discuss the issue as Janus is/was. In either case, HeWhoKnowsNothing should either continue it via PM or discuss it in another thread.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
1. You have yet to respond to my latest arguments in my PM.

I have to? Certainly not. And I won't, because you are a moron. Which I have said thrice now. So take your "arguments", shine them up real nice, turn them sideways and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

I also don't have to justify myself for that. Period.
And if you really need more input on the issue, go here and start reading. And I'm not going to comment on this further. Simply because I won't throw pearls before the swine.

Yes. Ragnos is "featless" (in fact he's not, but meh), which means he is an unknown. Now tell me: How do you prove that person X is more powerful than an unknown, when you don't know how powerful the unknown is?
Maybe Ragnos is capable of killing Sidious in seconds. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Who knows? I don't.

@EQ:

In the inner musings of Vader or, in short, by Vader himself.

The back of the Golden Age of the Sith comics calls Ragnos "the most powerful of the most powerful". Several people in the SWU have been referred to as "godlike" or "titanic". Should we buy this without closer examination and without applying reason to the narrative? Doesn't sound right to me.

@Gideon

The way I see it is that Sidious would be fighting someone who has far more combat / duelling experience, has a similar breadth of force knowledge (at least Luke had compareable sources in his hands), dedicated his life to saving the universe from some badass Sith Lords / Aliens / various other threats - and did succeed so far. And, on top of that: Somebody who did already defeat him before while being far less powerful, skilled and experienced.