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After the events of GOW3 he somehow gets warped into Nosgoth right after Kain has prevailed over the elder god. The only way for him to get back home is to destroy Kain and use the soulreaver to warp himself home. Can Kratos take down Kain?

Is Kratos seeking vengeance on everyone here?

Best bet Kain has is doing his voodoo to Kratos' blood/TKing him and misting/teleporting to evade, but even then... He lacks the strength and h2h to stay near Kratos so those are his sole options.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Is Kratos seeking vengeance on everyone here?

Best bet Kain has is doing his voodoo to Kratos' blood/TKing him and misting/teleporting to evade, but even then... He lacks the strength and h2h to stay near Kratos so those are his sole options. Just Kain.

Kain has a large number of choices but Kratos vs Kain is old.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kain has a large number of choices but Kratos vs Kain is old. Humor me I am new here. If it gets up close and personal do you feel Kain can still defeat him?

-TK and hold Kratos up.
-Take out his blood or stop his blood from moving.
-Slowing time to replace TK.
-Reactions good enough to mist or teleport from any of Kratos' attacks.

Is what I remember the last it was brought up.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Humor me I am new here. If it gets up close and personal do you feel Kain can still defeat him?

Not really but its never going to get close and personal. Kratos is stronger and has faster combos sure but Kain has such a huge list of powers from time distortion, soul raping, blood manipulation and Tk that he could mess Kratos up. Kratos will never reach Kain as even if for some reason Kain gets lazy and Kratos gets within a few meters, teleport/mistform can allow him to clear the gap.

Can Kratos be capable of using the Soul Reaver? If not, then it's a dumb win for Kain.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not really but its never going to get close and personal. Kratos is stronger and has faster combos sure but Kain has such a huge list of powers from time distortion, soul raping, blood manipulation and Tk that he could mess Kratos up. Kratos will never reach Kain as even if for some reason Kain gets lazy and Kratos gets within a few meters, teleport/mistform can allow him to clear the gap. You seem to be focusing on powerset arguments whereas Kratos goes toe to toe with gods and titans the size of mountains. I think this fight definitely gets up close and personal as all of Kain's battles do in the video games.

Size is irrelevant. Kratos beats Gods and Titans because he uses their size against them, take Cronos and Atlas, he fights both on them and within them and often without them being able to reach him.

Kain getting in close combat with Kratos would have to be forced PIS, Kain cant beat Kratos hand to hand unless he uses time distortion to make Kratos slow so he can fight with impunity.

So which of Kain's abilities are supposedly capable of harming Kratos? Last I checked they didn't work on anything with durability greater than that of a peasant from the middle ages.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Size is irrelevant. Kratos beats Gods and Titans because he uses their size against them, take Cronos and Atlas, he fights both on them and within them and often without them being able to reach him.

Kain getting in close combat with Kratos would have to be forced PIS, Kain cant beat Kratos hand to hand unless he uses time distortion to make Kratos slow so he can fight with impunity. How is it pis when he fights that way in virtually every battle he has?

What fights did Kain use time distortion to gain the advantage?

Originally posted by quanchi112
How is it pis when he fights that way in virtually every battle he has?

What fights did Kain use time distortion to gain the advantage?


In canon Kain does not use powers to gain an advantage. Infact hes probably used TK once to beat Moebius but then technically.

I am talking based on powers and an all out fight, if were using character personality then I am not sure. Kains not a melee fighter, after becoming an Elder (ancient vampire) like he is in Soul reaver he fights with energy in Soul reaver 1. He only uses Melee in Defiance against Raziel because hes not trying to harm him.

Originally posted by Burning thought
In canon Kain does not use powers to gain an advantage. Infact hes probably used TK once to beat Moebius but then technically.

I am talking based on powers and an all out fight, if were using character personality then I am not sure. Kains not a melee fighter, after becoming an Elder (ancient vampire) like he is in Soul reaver he fights with energy in Soul reaver 1. He only uses Melee in Defiance against Raziel because hes not trying to harm him. Yes, that's why you can't use it here because it's how these guys typically throw down not some kind of powerset advantage to steer it in the direction of whichever character you favor.

Kain's up close and personal basically in every fight he's ever been in so he will engage Kratos. Both characters would be fearless here and dive into each other.


I always argue based off of powers and how they typically fight.

But if Kain has some knowledge on Kratos (which in these fights is most likely) then he wouldn't go in for a swordfight with him.

Originally posted by BloodRain
But if Kain has some knowledge on Kratos (which in these fights is most likely) then he wouldn't go in for a swordfight with him. Why not?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, that's why you can't use it here because it's how these guys typically throw down not some kind of powerset advantage to steer it in the direction of whichever character you favor.

Kain's up close and personal basically in every fight he's ever been in so he will engage Kratos. Both characters would be fearless here and dive into each other.


I always argue based off of powers and how they typically fight.

Thats often how arguments go around here, power set vs power set on blood lust.

I disagree, Kain as he is in current form is a agressive but calculating character. Hes not like Kratos who would just run in and attack with what weapons he has at hand. In Blood omen 1/2 perhaps, the guy does move in with a sword in melee but he becomes wise and ancient by the end of the series. Hes hardly going to just "jump" in. In Soul reaver 1 he uses TK and energy bolts solely if I remember correctly. In defiance he uses Tk against moebius, thats his only cinemati non player controlled fight iirc.

I take both characters, evaluate their strengths and weaknesses and attempt to determine a winner based on how each character would use their greatest strengths against the others weaknesses. That way you dont get characters like Kain attacking a faster or stronger opponent in melee when he has a dozen powers that can negate all their advantages.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Why not?
'Cause he'll know is isnt wining with his raw strength alone and will play it smart.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats often how arguments go around here, power set vs power set on blood lust.

I disagree, Kain as he is in current form is a agressive but calculating character. Hes not like Kratos who would just run in and attack with what weapons he has at hand. In Blood omen 1/2 perhaps, the guy does move in with a sword in melee but he becomes wise and ancient by the end of the series. Hes hardly going to just "jump" in. In Soul reaver 1 he uses TK and energy bolts solely if I remember correctly. In defiance he uses Tk against moebius, thats his only cinemati non player controlled fight iirc.

I take both characters, evaluate their strengths and weaknesses and attempt to determine a winner based on how each character would use their greatest strengths against the others weaknesses. That way you dont get characters like Kain attacking a faster or stronger opponent in melee when he has a dozen powers that can negate all their advantages. He uses tk because of Moebius' staff which can negate Kain due to the heart of darkness. That's the only reason he used that tactic on Moebius because he had to.

If you argue based on pure powerset and ignore the characters then it isn't Kain winning it's Kain's powers defeating Kratos' powers. you are taking the character out and leaving just a powerset behind.

Kain would use his speed against him and trade blows in that manner in a sword clash. Kain went right up to the elder god right out of the gate despite his power and started lopping off tendrils. I don't see him backing off for an instant from close combat.

Originally posted by BloodRain
'Cause he'll know is isnt wining with his raw strength alone and will play it smart. He has speed on his side and is an excellent swordsman.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He uses tk because of Moebius' staff which can negate Kain due to the heart of darkness. That's the only reason he used that tactic on Moebius because he had to.

If you argue based on pure powerset and ignore the characters then it isn't Kain winning it's Kain's powers defeating Kratos' powers. you are taking the character out and leaving just a powerset behind.

Kain would use his speed against him and trade blows in that manner in a sword clash. Kain went right up to the elder god right out of the gate despite his power and started lopping off tendrils. I don't see him backing off for an instant from close combat.

He has speed on his side and is an excellent swordsman.

Yes and he is going to have to use spells and distance to beat Kratos. Kains going to be a hard foe to pierce and hit because his vampire reflexes>Kratos but Kratos one slash would splatter Kain since Kratos can stop Titans.

If were using characters then its a wise and manipulative Kain who does teleport, use magic blasts and TK in combat VS an angry and bloodlusted Spartan who will just run at Kain with what hes got. Kratosn ever uses his magic or arrows in the cinematics iirc, at least not against major foes.

He knew the Elder God was fearful and he had the right weapon for the job, the reaver. Not sure its quite the same in this situation since Kain could never cross a sword with Kratos and win.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes and he is going to have to use spells and distance to beat Kratos. Kains going to be a hard foe to pierce and hit because his vampire reflexes>Kratos but Kratos one slash would splatter Kain since Kratos can stop Titans.

If were using characters then its a wise and manipulative Kain who does teleport, use magic blasts and TK in combat VS an angry and bloodlusted Spartan who will just run at Kain with what hes got. Kratosn ever uses his magic or arrows in the cinematics iirc, at least not against major foes.

He knew the Elder God was fearful and he had the right weapon for the job, the reaver. Not sure its quite the same in this situation since Kain could never cross a sword with Kratos and win. When did he use spells and such to keep his distance in the game? You have to give instances in my book to definitively prove this is the manner in which Kain would fight Kratos.

Kratos doesn't often rely on his arrows and never once did I suggest he would do so here. I think just like Kain they fight how they normally do which means Kratos is going to close the distance and use his weapons to attack while narrowing the gap.

How much quicker do you feel Kain is then Kratos?

Kain also locked swords with the Sarafan Lord in part 2 and I see him doing so here using his speed while engaging him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
When did he use spells and such to keep his distance in the game? You have to give instances in my book to definitively prove this is the manner in which Kain would fight Kratos.

Kratos doesn't often rely on his arrows and never once did I suggest he would do so here. I think just like Kain they fight how they normally do which means Kratos is going to close the distance and use his weapons to attack while narrowing the gap.

How much quicker do you feel Kain is then Kratos?

Kain also locked swords with the Sarafan Lord in part 2 and I see him doing so here using his speed while engaging him.

He uses teleportation in Soul reaver 1.

Ofc not, he relies on pure physical strength in almost every fight. But the point I am making is, why leave out their other powers just becase they dont usually use them in particular in game fights? this is narrowing their options because in their fights in Legacy of Kain or God of War, opponents are scripted.

A fair degree faster, lets just say that if Kratos had equel strength to Kain Kains speed would block all of Kratos' attacks and deal some major damage.

The Sarafan lord cannot stop Titans like Kratos can

Originally posted by Burning thought
He uses teleportation in Soul reaver 1.

Ofc not, he relies on pure physical strength in almost every fight. But the point I am making is, why leave out their other powers just becase they dont usually use them in particular in game fights? this is narrowing their options because in their fights in Legacy of Kain or God of War, opponents are scripted.

A fair degree faster, lets just say that if Kratos had equel strength to Kain Kains speed would block all of Kratos' attacks and deal some major damage.

The Sarafan lord cannot stop Titans like Kratos can Against who raziel?


That's one time in how many fights. I think he can and maybe would use teleportation here but not fight using various spells and such which he all but abandoned after part 1.


Yes, but these fights are how we gauge how they react in certain situations and how they fight.

I don't see him blocking all of Kratos' attacks I see him maybe one or two and dodging one or two and then getting caught.


Yeah, I know that but he went up to the elder god and started slashing away right out of the gate as well.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Against who raziel?


That's one time in how many fights. I think he can and maybe would use teleportation here but not fight using various spells and such which he all but abandoned after part 1.


Yes, but these fights are how we gauge how they react in certain situations and how they fight.

I don't see him blocking all of Kratos' attacks I see him maybe one or two and dodging one or two and then getting caught.


Yeah, I know that but he went up to the elder god and started slashing away right out of the gate as well.


Yeh

He does not have many fights. Hes never had to use them or had a canon storyline reason to use them after the first one.


He has no other weapon that could be effective. If i was Kain, taking into account all my options thats probably what I would have done....

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yeh

He does not have many fights. Hes never had to use them or had a canon storyline reason to use them after the first one.


He has no other weapon that could be effective. If i was Kain, taking into account all my options thats probably what I would have done.... He can use teleportation as he has done so but using spells while maintaining a distance is just you arguing powerset vs. powerset so we can throw that out.

He didn't hesitate using his sword and coming right up on him despite being shocked at how awesome of a foe he faced. Kratos isn't as physically as imposing so he won't hesitate to take him on with his trusted soul reaver.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He can use teleportation as he has done so but using spells while maintaining a distance is just you arguing powerset vs. powerset so we can throw that out.

He didn't hesitate using his sword and coming right up on him despite being shocked at how awesome of a foe he faced. Kratos isn't as physically as imposing so he won't hesitate to take him on with his trusted soul reaver.


You just seem to be throwing out all character powers and using the basic gameplay elements seen in the games rather than using the charatcers as intelligent entities.

Why would he hesitate? and as I said, he had the right weapon for the job, hes not going to teleport and shoot spells at the EG, it would be pointless.

Kratos does not seem to always land the first blow, for example he stands around and actually allows his opponent to make the first action like he did with Hercules.

And Kain does teleport backwards and use magic, in Soul reaver 1 as I said. Therefore, Kain destroys Kratos with magic.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You just seem to be throwing out all character powers and using the basic gameplay elements seen in the games rather than using the charatcers as intelligent entities.

Why would he hesitate? and as I said, he had the right weapon for the job, hes not going to teleport and shoot spells at the EG, it would be pointless.

Kratos does not seem to always land the first blow, for example he stands around and actually allows his opponent to make the first action like he did with Hercules.

And Kain does teleport backwards and use magic, in Soul reaver 1 as I said. Therefore, Kain destroys Kratos with magic. These tactics seemed just fine and with the tactics Kain used he was victories in the end so you can't argue with success.


He doesn't teleport and use spells against anyone basically in combat outside the game. I guess Kain can shoot souls at him with hades magic while protecting himself with spartan shields, right?

Ok.

What kind of magic did he use in part 1?

Kain literally cannot harm Kratos. Kratos catches the BoO when Zeus swings it in GoW3, apparently. Kain would need to be atleast on the 2 GJ level to even think about harming Kratos, and how's he even going to get Kratos' blood out of his super durable body?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Kain literally cannot harm Kratos. Kratos catches the BoO when Zeus swings it in GoW3, apparently. Kain would need to be atleast on the 2 GJ level to even think about harming Kratos, and how's he even going to get Kratos' blood out of his super durable body? If Kain swings his soul reaver sword at Kratos he's definitely going to be in pain. Let's not get crazy here.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Kain literally cannot harm Kratos. Kratos catches the BoO when Zeus swings it in GoW3, apparently. Kain would need to be atleast on the 2 GJ level to even think about harming Kratos, and how's he even going to get Kratos' blood out of his super durable body?
Not if you take in the battle animation of a Centaur impaling him to throw Kratos to the side. (One of those move that can happen if you don't press 'O' in time.)

Originally posted by quanchi112
These tactics seemed just fine and with the tactics Kain used he was victories in the end so you can't argue with success.


He doesn't teleport and use spells against anyone basically in combat outside the game. I guess Kain can shoot souls at him with hades magic while protecting himself with spartan shields, right?

Ok.

What kind of magic did he use in part 1?

He did not attack Kratos in LoK games and as i said earlier, gameplay limitations should not limit charatcers in a real fight in a vs debate.

Raziel, Kain never since becoming an Elder Vampire look to kill his serious opponents. hes broken the neck of a few soldiers, thats it. He used teleportation and magic vs Raziel and he used his sword on Elder God. Knowing Kain as an intelligent and devious character who would not ignore his powers in a fight he would use all his spells.

An energy blast. Its irrelevant however, as its proven kain uses magic at range while teleporting. Case settled.

Originally posted by Burning thought
He did not attack Kratos in LoK games and as i said earlier, gameplay limitations should not limit charatcers in a real fight in a vs debate.

Raziel, Kain never since becoming an Elder Vampire look to kill his serious opponents. hes broken the neck of a few soldiers, thats it. He used teleportation and magic vs Raziel and he used his sword on Elder God. Knowing Kain as an intelligent and devious character who would not ignore his powers in a fight he would use all his spells.

An energy blast. Its irrelevant however, as its proven kain uses magic at range while teleporting. Case settled. I know that but by the same token Kratos never fought him either and we can't just say well Kratos goes into rage mode while shooting hades souls at him while using spartan shields to protect himself. This isn't how these characters fight normally in scenes and is only available through gameplay.

Yes, he would but you want to say he wouldn't because you really want him to win. I love Kain and Kratos but neither just powerset it up. Kain will use his speed and his sword mainly with a hint of teleportation in my opinion if necessary.

He's withstood mighty blasts from Zeus so if anything this is a major step down and considering it didn't kill Raziel it's nothing but a minor nuisance.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I know that but by the same token Kratos never fought him either and we can't just say well Kratos goes into rage mode while shooting hades souls at him while using spartan shields to protect himself. This isn't how these characters fight normally in scenes and is only available through gameplay.

Yes, he would but you want to say he wouldn't because you really want him to win. I love Kain and Kratos but neither just powerset it up. Kain will use his speed and his sword mainly with a hint of teleportation in my opinion if necessary.

He's withstood mighty blasts from Zeus so if anything this is a major step down and considering it didn't kill Raziel it's nothing but a minor nuisance.

Them only being used by the player does not negate the canon of these powers, Kratos did canonically gain spartan shields and has access to all of the weapons of the Gods just like Kain has his powers, unless their idiotsin this matchup their going to use all their abilities to prevent themselves from being destroyed.

Has he? recently played GOW 3, cant remember GOW 2 but when did Kratos take the blast? and it does kill Raziel if it hits him.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Them only being used by the player does not negate the canon of these powers, Kratos did canonically gain spartan shields and has access to all of the weapons of the Gods just like Kain has his powers, unless their idiotsin this matchup their going to use all their abilities to prevent themselves from being destroyed.

Has he? recently played GOW 3, cant remember GOW 2 but when did Kratos take the blast? and it does kill Raziel if it hits him. I disagree they will fight in character and I don't like to argue based on what I would do based on the abilities in the game I like to argue what the character what do otherwise we take the characters out of this and just focus on powersets.


When he is on Mount Olympus after he defeats Poseidon. The blast doesn't kill him it sends him back along with doing massive damage to gaea and the fall really wrecks Kratos not the blast.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I disagree they will fight in character and I don't like to argue based on what I would do based on the abilities in the game I like to argue what the character what do otherwise we take the characters out of this and just focus on powersets.


When he is on Mount Olympus after he defeats Poseidon. The blast doesn't kill him it sends him back along with doing massive damage to gaea and the fall really wrecks Kratos not the blast.


I dont like to argue based on what gameplay versions have done in very specific cinematic situations. I like to argue based on what the characters would do with their powers.

Kratos ends up in the river of souls and Kratos falls, the lightning from Zeus hit Gaias arm, not Kratos.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont like to argue based on what gameplay versions have done in very specific cinematic situations. I like to argue based on what the characters would do with their powers.

Kratos ends up in the river of souls and Kratos falls, the lightning from Zeus hit Gaias arm, not Kratos. By doing so you are saying Kain can't win this and this is how I would use his powers against Kratos which shows a real distrust in Kain the character imo.

I'll have to watch it again but I could have sworn it hit them both.

Originally posted by quanchi112
By doing so you are saying Kain can't win this and this is how I would use his powers against Kratos which shows a real distrust in Kain the character imo.

I'll have to watch it again but I could have sworn it hit them both.


Kain as a character is a sorcerorous and greatly intelligent entity. Not some brawler, your basing Kain not using any powers simply because he does not in gameplay, or did not decide to soul rape and blood drain Moebius for the lulz....

I think the main blast hit Gaia alone, I think Kratos simply fell.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kain as a character is a sorcerorous and greatly intelligent entity. Not some brawler, your basing Kain not using any powers simply because he does not in gameplay, or did not decide to soul rape and blood drain Moebius for the lulz....

I think the main blast hit Gaia alone, I think Kratos simply fell. Funny, because he's brawled in virtually every scene with his trustworthy soulreaver.


I saw it as hitting them both.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Funny, because he's brawled in virtually every scene with his trustworthy soulreaver.


I saw it as hitting them both.



Name those scenes since hes become the Elder Kain? the only time he did not face a random pawn that he could kill with one hand is the only time he used some major powers in a cinematic. This does not negate the canon that Kain is an intelligent entity with a vast list of powers.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Name those scenes since hes become the Elder Kain? the only time he did not face a random pawn that he could kill with one hand is the only time he used some major powers in a cinematic. This does not negate the canon that Kain is an intelligent entity with a vast list of powers. What do you mean name the scenes? Every major battle has him going back and forth with characters such as Raziel, Sarafan Lord, elder god, Moebius when he killed him twice, etc.

I'm not saying Kain becomes brain dead here I am saying like Kratos they cross swords.