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Instead of the Senate, the fight takes place in the Jedi Temple. Who wins?

Isn't the Jedi Temple a light side Force nexus?

Nexus's are overrated. And I pick Yoda. he disarmed sidious, as did Mace. In a fight where either one of them had kept their lightsabers, they would have killed him.

Right...and there aren't any senate pods to throw at him at the Temple, although there are pillars and stuff.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v151/LordExor/lolyoda.jpg
The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v151/LordExor/Yodabeaten1.jpg
Star Wars: The Essential Atlas

How many sources need to say that Sidious is downright more powerful than Yoda before people absorb it? Furthermore, Palpatine was only shown being disarmed in the comic, correct? Given the nature of all the conflicting sources behind this duel--and the fact that this event was not shown in the films--this assertion is tenuous at best.

Oh, and their light side Force nexus certainly didn't help them survive the 501st assault on the Jedi Temple.

those sources are only talking about the fight we already watched(thus the narrative quality they possess). Yoda was unable to overcome Sidious's powers because of the terrain, that's pretty obvious. and Jr. Novelization is still canon.

Had Yoda kept his lightsaber, "continuing to confront sidious" would have ended in victory. Without it, yes, he decided to run away.

Those source-books don't really add anythign to what we saw onscreen.

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
How many sources need to say that Sidious is downright more powerful than Yoda before people absorb it? Furthermore, Palpatine was only shown being disarmed in the comic, correct? Given the nature of all the conflicting sources behind this duel--and the fact that this event was not shown in the films--this assertion is tenuous at best.


This is great.

So some second hand interpretations of the events do suddenly overwrite the movie itself and the G-canon RotS Script? Because, you see, the latter not only claims that Yoda disarmed Sidious (with Sidious clearly having no lightsaber left in the movie) and it also descripes their final force contest with the words "it looked as if the Sith Lord was doomed", which doesn't sound like "well...Sidious was too powerful for Yoda".

During the events of ROTS I have always viewed the two as equals. However, there is a LS nexus at the temple and its enough to net Yoda the win.

Eh? Those sources directly say that Sidious was too powerful to defeat, that Yoda couldn't withstand his power and that if he continued to fight he would have lost. They were both without their lightsabers, it was pure power vs power, and Sidious would have won. I'd say that shows that Sidious>Yoda, at least as far as power is concerned.

Him being disarmed does mean that Yoda is likely superior in lightsaber combat though. And Borbarad, 'looking like he was doomed' doesn't mean he is doomed, which the sources above show was actually what Yoda was.

edit: Is the nexus just in the temple? Becuase if so its not likely to be very powerful. Nexus' commonly stretch across entire planets. One dinky temple's worth isn't much.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Eh? Those sources directly say that Sidious was too powerful to defeat, that Yoda couldn't withstand his power and that if he continued to fight he would have lost.



This adds nothing to the movie, and Yoda even says as much. Part of sidious's power is his army of clone troopers. As a Galatic Empourer, that's pretty obvious. Yes, if Yoda had stayed, he would have been killed. He kinda just fell off of a senate pod for a few hundred feet or whatever, thanks to a terrain advantage

Unless you want to say that Sidious and Yoda' confrontation with lightning on the pod was PIS? then we can go back at it.

It specifically says that he couldn't withstand 'the Emperors Sith powers' though. Not clone powers.

Right, because he just fell hundreds of feet and didn't have his lightsaber. That's pretty obvious,and its what i've been saying from the start. Yoda's greatest strength was his saber skills, once he lost it, he was done.

There are elements in various Star Wars screenplays that are cut from the final films and do not end up as canon. A good example of this would be the death of Shaak Ti in the Jedi Temple.


So I guess this is canon, right? Wrong. You should be cognizant of the fact that Shaak Ti's demise is superseded by her appearance in Star Wars: The Force Unleashed. Thus, it would appear that only the elements of screenplays that translate over to film are internally considered G-canon, with all cut material subject to scrutiny and further revision.

Given that Palpatine's disarmament is referenced in material that is contradicted by several concurrent G-canon sources--and the fact that it does not appear in the film--its level of canonicity is ambiguous.


Why are you continuing to imply that Yoda's ability to overcome Sidious was somehow gimped by circumstance? The sources are very specific when they declare that Palpatine was overall "too powerful" for Yoda. They don't say, "Given a set of unfortunate circumstances, Yoda was forced to retreat."

Originally posted by Nephthys
Eh? Those sources directly say that Sidious was too powerful to defeat, that Yoda couldn't withstand his power and that if he continued to fight he would have lost. They were both without their lightsabers, it was pure power vs power, and Sidious would have won. I'd say that shows that Sidious>Yoda, at least as far as power is concerned.


Right.
This is still contraticting what the movie does show. In their final force contest, Sidious is being forced to lean backwards once Yoda was catching and redirecting his lightning. He would have lost that little contest if the energy between them hadn't exploded and sent Yoda down to the bottom of the chamber.

From there, he couldn't go on fighting - of course. On equal ground, he would still whoop Sidious ass in both lightsaber and force contests.



Really? I clearly saw the terror on Sidious face in their final confrontation - not in Yoda's. As a matter of fact, Sidious had the luck of weighing more than Yoda and having that nice grip on his side of the pod. Otherwise he would have falled down just like the Jedi Master.



It's in the central mountain that serves as fundament for the temple. And where did you get the idea from that such a nexus "commonly" stretches across an entire planet, huh? Remember the lake on Ambria? The tree on Dagobah? Vader's fortress?

Borbarad, you do realize that facial expressions ultimately don't prove anything right? Especially given that the sentiment of Palpatine being too powerful for Yoda to handle is echoed throughout official sources that surely would bend to the whims of Lucas if there were a major contradiction.

True, and when one examines the screenplay, one notices a particular problem:



...If the script is entirely incontrovertible, then apparently Yoda disarms the Emperor, is in the process of killing him with redirected Force lightning, vows to destroy him, and then... relents?

the same thing happens as it did in ROTS

Yoda falls off a Senate pod?



Correct, especially when the movie also depicts Yoda in considerable pain and Palpatine's cackling just prior to his expression of fear.



In addition to the quotes from the Atlas and the Encyclopedia (which is identical to the statement in Yoda's entry in the official databank), you have a similar line from the Ultimate Visual Guide that says "Palpatine attacks Yoda with both his lightsaber and Sith lightning, who is ultimately forced to retreat" and the New Essential Chronology that says "Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith in history."

But none of those things say ANYTHING more than what we see onscreen. And what we see onscreen looks an awful lot like a stale-mate.

Saying Yoda was ultimately forced to retreat doesn't add to or detract from the film in anyway, meaning we are left with THE FILM to make our decision.

I'm not endorsing the idea that the Emperor was more powerful than Yoda; I'm offering sources that indicate Palpatine was, at the very least, Yoda's equal -- none of the supplement sources, other than a dubious script, suggest he was weaker.

I gotcha. To me, they all simply seem to provide a narrative to the movie. which shows them on more or less even force footing, and gives Yoda a possible sabers advantage.

TJ
and gives Yoda a possible sabers advantage.

I really wouldn't doubt this. Yoda, more or less, has kept up his saber skills in practice and in engagements throughout the Clone Wars.

Yes they do. They're further elucidating why Yoda was forced to retreat, which isn't immediately evident in the film. Additionally, they're directly stating that Palpatine was too powerful for Yoda.

from their positions at the end of the fight? Right when Yoda decided to retreat? Obviously. That was obvious from the moment the fight ended on-screen. Palpatine was in a superior position, and too powerful at that moment for Yoda to confront.

Your strongest argument is in the ROTS novelization. You haven't brought it up, so I thought i'd give it to you. Look it up. THAT'S where you want to be basing your argument, not on narratives that just repeat what we see onscreen.

TJ
Palpatine was in a superior position, and too powerful at that moment for Yoda to confront.

Devious, but acceptable.

Yoda most likely wins. They duel, Yoda in most cases disarms Sidious. Since there isn't as much of a vertical battlefield in the Temple, Sidious would be hard pressed to get away. He might try Force lightning as a trump card, but remember that Yoda managed to push it back, and lost his lightsaber because he was surprised by it; Palpatine was on the pod and Yoda had just lept on it, so he likely couldn't see Palpatine and was still occupied with leaping on the pod. This time, Palpatine can't really flee and surprise Yoda.

Originally posted by truejedi
from their positions at the end of the fight? Right when Yoda decided to retreat? Obviously. That was obvious from the moment the fight ended on-screen. Palpatine was in a superior position, and too powerful at that moment for Yoda to confront.

Your strongest argument is in the ROTS novelization. You haven't brought it up, so I thought i'd give it to you. Look it up. THAT'S where you want to be basing your argument, not on narratives that just repeat what we see onscreen.
The databank/encyclopedia entry mentions that the Emperor was "too powerful to defeat" prior to stating that Yoda "held his own for much of the duel". Seeing as how the statement precluded the ensuing description of the fight, this would indicate that Palpatine is overall too powerful for Yoda to handle, rather than being too powerful for Yoda to handle at any specific point in time.

And I didn't bring up the novelization because I believed it was a given that it depicted Sidious wiping the floor with Yoda.

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Yes they do. They're further elucidating why Yoda was forced to retreat, which isn't immediately evident in the film. Additionally, they're directly stating that Palpatine was too powerful for Yoda.

Instead of being "not immediately evident in the film", those lines blatantly contradict what happens.

a) Sidious tries to run away from Yoda.

b) When they engage in a lightsaber duel, he is definetely inable to keep his superior position and probably he's even disarmed. Does that count as "being too powerful"?

c) He then assumes the high ground and starts throwing pods. What happens? Yoda forces him out of the high ground from a clear position of disadvantage. Again: Does that count as "being too powerful" on Sidious side?

d) Then Sidious cathes Yoda, who is just landing on a pod, with a force attack. Firstly, Sidious is leaning forwards with a grimasse of anger on his face. After a few seconds, Yoda appears to have gained the upper hand once again, forcing the Sith Lord to lean backwards, face turning into a grimasse of outright fear. Is that again Sidious "being too powerful"?

Let us just face it: The movie depicts Sidious being overpowered by Yoda on three different occassions when always being in a position of advantage. If he can't beat Yoda from a position of advantage, who is he going to do the same on equal ground?

To me, the interpretations are all following the novel version of the fight which shows entirely different events, rather than sticking to an analysis of the events shown in the movie. In the novel, Yoda realize that he can't defeat the Sith Lord, not because of his inability to overpower him, but rather because he couldn't negate all manouvering that Sidious has performed behind the scenes in accordance to the "new" Sith ways of stealth, backstabbing and political manouvering. So Yoda decides to quit fighting to save his own life and with that, the knowledge how to finally defeat the Emperor in the future.

EQ
And I didn't bring up the novelization because I believed it was a given that it depicted Sidious wiping the floor with Yoda.

I don't have the novelization on hand, but I remember that much of the fight came from Palpatine's own perspective -- I seem to recall the term "little green freak" being used a lot -- with the only real superiority on Palpatine's end is just that the Emperor had greater reserves of energy, which would be hard to argue against.

My only question would be if Yoda could have easily won the fight, why did he run at all?

Storm troopers.

DS
Storm troopers.



You bring shame to your forefathers!



I doubt it; Palpatine didn't call them until after the duel.

Originally posted by Gideon
I doubt it; Palpatine didn't call them until after the duel.

Huh?
They were starting the search for Yoda while the Jedi Master was still making his way through the tunnels of the Senate. That actually implies that they were rather close to the rotunda (or had already entered it) during the final moments of the battle between Sidious and Yoda.

If I was Yoda I'd run away from Storm Troopers.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cc/Hitler_1928_crop.jpg

They would after all, deem him a sub human piece of scum to be disposed of at Auswitch.

EDIT - Ugh, page stretch.

Nai,

I don't have the novelization onhand, but I know for a fact that, in it, Palpatine didn't trip the alarm that summoned the stormtroopers until after the duel ended.

The movie and script do not show it or make references to when they arrived.

Originally posted by Gideon
Nai,

I don't have the novelization onhand, but I know for a fact that, in it, Palpatine didn't trip the alarm that summoned the stormtroopers until after the duel ended.

To be honest: I don't recall Sidious ringing any alarm. Do you really think that nobody would notice that the Senate chamber is torn into pieces? Usually it's quite loud when you hammer several ton metal pods into the ground and collapse half the inside of a building in the process. At least enough to alarm some guards. Don't you think so?



If I'm not completely mistaken, the movie shows the guards close to Sidious who orders them to search for Yoda, right before we see the Jedi making his escape with the aid of Bail Organa. So Yoda was still running arround in the building when the guards did show up. That couldn't have been too much time from the end of the duel.

I think it's rather save to assume that the guards would have been there to enter the fight if Yoda would have attempted to get back up to continue his brawl with the Sith Lord.

I'm 99.8% certain that he does in the Stover novelization. I don't have it with me, but I'll check it this weekend if nobody else does.



DS and I were discussing this on MSN and I brought this up. The Rotunda was devastated in the duel; why didn't the stormtroopers come sooner? If they'd been close, they would have been there when the pods were first being hurled.

These are highly trained shock troops; they would have investigated the second they heard the disturbance, not minutes afterwards.



If I recall, you're correct: the guards were there as Yoda was making his escape. But you have to acknowledge that the Senate Building is massive; there's no indication that the exit Yoda used was extremely close to the Rotunda.

I see no discrepency here.



I respectfully disagree. If the guards had been nearby, they would have logically poked their heads in long before Yoda fell from the pod; there is absolutely no reason for a delay if they had been alerted by the disturbances.

The film and screenplay are silent on this issue, so we can't assume facts not in evidence. The novelization, as I said, shows Palpatine summon his troops only after the duel ended. There is absolutely no canon reason to assume that they would have shown up had Yoda tried to re-engage.

Now, you could make the argument that Yoda himself might have assumed that, even if it didn't actually happen, but you'd have to prove it.

That aside, however, as DS pointed out on MSN: if Yoda could have easily won the fight on even ground, why would stormtroopers make a difference?

I'll continue this when I find the book this weekend.

Elok: i don't believe you said anything to contradict what I have already posted, and I don't feel like repeating myself in a back and forth. I'm not discrediting your argument, its solid, but I believe it to be incorrect.

At this moment, all the sources you have posted refer to the duel we saw: At the end of it, Sidious was in a more powerful position than Yoda, and Yoda was unable to continue the duel based on his need to escape the clone-troopers. I will need a source that states Sidious was actually more powerful at the beginning of the duel before I believe otherwise. Not to say one doesn't exist, but that you haven't presented it yet.


Gideon: From the Novelization: Pg: 399
Immediately after the fight ends:
"He flicked a finger, and in the Chancellor's Podium a dozen meters away, a switch tripped and sirens sounded throughout the enormous building; another surge of the Force sent his pod streaking in a downward spiral to the holding office at the base of the Podium tower. Clone troops were already swarming into it."


So troopers were undoubtedly on their way before the alarm sounded.

Um... "already swarming into it" could also be an intensifier in the same way that "already on it, boss" is an intensifier.

Artistic license, and all that.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Um... "already swarming into it" could also be an intensifier in the same way that "already on it, boss" is an intensifier.

Artistic license, and all that.

not at all the same. The former is a physical presence. They wouldn't have been swarming into it, if they hadn't been there.

Your latter example is something you say when someone isn't really on it, just letting someone know you are about to start.

Sids sounded the alarm, and literally seconds later clones were in the room. They absolutely HAD to have already been on their way.

Thanks, TJ.

I'll concede that the stormtroopers had been alerted to the danger, but I'd like to point out that the passage indicates that they were entering the holding office, where the duel with Yoda began, which was beneath the Rotunda -- suggesting they'd been tipped off by Mas Amedda (who witnessed the beginning of the duel in the office, but not its progression into the Rotunda).

"He flicked a finger, and in the Chancellor's Podium a dozen meters away, a switch tripped and sirens sounded throughout the enormous building; another surge of the Force sent his pod streaking in a downward spiral to the holding office at the base of the Podium tower. Clone troops were already swarming into it ."

They were close, but not in the same room as either Yoda or Palpatine during the final stage of the duel. It probably would have been cutting it close, but the troops were breathing down Yoda's neck, either.