Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

all out fight anything goes, including tailed beast and sage mode for Killer Bee and Jiraiya respectively.

Killerbee can win.

Unleashing Hachibi would give Bee the win. Besides that, Jiraiya probably has a good shot at winning, but then again Bee probably does also.

Sage mode and summonings make this close. Jiraiya would stomp Pein 10/10 in rematches. I'd give Killer Bee the slight advantage due to the 8Tails, but it's very close.

Hahah that's a funny statement since Pein could beat 8 tails.

Well, Frog Song > Pein, and Chibaku Tensei > Tailed-Beast. So, it's possible. lol

Like a pein said, that frog song could only ever work on him once.

jiraya won't have time to go sage mode, b will be on him all the time.

how would jiraya defend against killerbee's 7 swordstyle

Originally posted by amano uchiha
how would jiraya defend against killerbee's 7 swordstyle by being jiraya, as far as norman ninja attacks i think jiraya is superior (i know not an argument, just stating my opinion) but since he is a jinchuriki bee takes it. though, i feel that if the writers put jiraya against bee jiraya would end up winning, just because he is supposed to be the epicness lol

Originally posted by menokokoro
by being jiraya, as far as norman ninja attacks i think jiraya is superior (i know not an argument, just stating my opinion) but since he is a jinchuriki bee takes it. though, i feel that if the writers put jiraya against bee jiraya would end up winning, just because he is supposed to be the epicness lol
Bee has never lost a fight in the manga, while Jiraiya was killed off. I don't think it's Jiraiya who has the writer's favor here.

Originally posted by
amano uchiha
how would jiraya defend against killerbee's 7 swordstyle

Originally posted by
psycho gundam
jiraya won't have time to go sage mode, b will be on him all the time.


summonings! those toads are no joke and i think they'll be able to keep Bee busy while Jiraiya amps.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Bee has never lost a fight in the manga, while Jiraiya was killed off. I don't think it's Jiraiya who has the writer's favor here. Eh, you could argue that Jiraiya only got killed to advance the story. His death was necessary to motivate Naruto, i don' think it's indicative of the favor either character garners.

I think this is kind of close. Bee's seven sword style is something fierce yet Jiraiya has more ninjutsu feats. Along with that, Jiraiya has knowledge of sealing techniques(evident with Naruto's training) However exactly how it would help would be a mystery.

If Bee can transform into the full 8-tails form or just use a sub-form so he can use a chakra blast, then it's over for the Sage(I think).

Originally posted by psycho gundam
jiraya won't have time to go sage mode, b will be on him all the time. Jiraiya has his barrier though.

Originally posted by Kento
Jiraiya has his barrier though. not sure that's goint to help at all.

Originally posted by marwash22
summonings! those toads are no joke and i think they'll be able to keep Bee busy while Jiraiya amps. full hachibi or even better version 2 would take care of all of that.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
not sure that's goint to help at all.

. It kept him from being attacked by Pein when going into Sage Mode, and another is how he captured one of the bodies.

Originally posted by Kento
It kept him from being attacked by Pein when going into Sage Mode, and another is how he captured one of the bodies. ? it was for sensing the invisible pein, he only entered sage mode when the ox summon rammed him into the pipes (which obviously wouldn't happen if the barrier did what you said it did)

gamaken was also fighting off summons while jiraya absorbed natural energy standing on him

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v42/c381/3.html

Eh I was mostly talking about this barrier.

Originally posted by marwash22
Eh, you could argue that Jiraiya only got killed to advance the story. His death was necessary to motivate Naruto, i don' think it's indicative of the favor either character garners. i was going to say something against him, but i like your answer better.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Hahah that's a funny statement since Pein could beat 8 tails. i missed this before... what's your point?

Pein could annihilate absolutely anyone (this includes Bee) in a fight in which it was their first encounter. What i said was that, Jiraiya would stomp Pein, in a rematch... meaning, Jiraiya would know Pein's abilities. It's always been my stance that Pein isn't that strong and his legend is due mostly to people not knowing of his abilities. Give any of the Kage-level/just below kage-level ninja detailed information about what Pein does and they can stomp him...

I don't think even with said information they could stomp him, Pain still has a really really powerful skill set. One of the main reasons Naruto did as well as he did was because Deva was out of power for most of the match, after all, taking him on in addition to the other five would've been even harder.

Kakashi, even knowing Deva's recharge time, needed help against Deva.

Perhaps "stomp him" is a little strong a statement, but i still contend that he can be beaten by any high level ninja and fairly easily by any kage-level ninja. To be fair, Kakashi didn't have that info beforehand, he had to figure it out mid-battle. My scenario is dependent on having that knowledge pre-battle.

Originally posted by marwash22
Perhaps "stomp him" is a little strong a statement, but i still contend that he can be beaten by any high level ninja and fairly easily by any kage-level ninja. To be fair, Kakashi didn't have that info beforehand, he had to figure it out mid-battle. My scenario is dependent on having that knowledge pre-battle.

I still disagree. Even knowing a weakness it was hard to exploit, it'd be harder still with the other Pains backing him up, and Deva didn't use his biggest jutsu on Kakashi or Chozu.

Deva on his own is probably low to mid-Kage. In addition to his gravity power his physical fighting is quite impressive.

Add in the other five who are themselves various flavors of jonin level (the two soul-stealers being the weakest, but the one that can fix others being very valuable aside) and just about only the best of the Kage class could realistically beat all 6 at once even with knowledge IMO.

Healthy Itachi, a young 3rd Hokage, or similar.

yeah, your examples fit in to what i mean about kage-level or just below. With exception to the fifth, I'd say all the Hokage's can solo Pein.

lulz.

Old Sarutobi can beat Pein, probably at the cost of his life.
Young Sarutobi would violate Pein.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think even with said information they could stomp him, Pain still has a really really powerful skill set. One of the main reasons Naruto did as well as he did was because Deva was out of power for most of the match, after all, taking him on in addition to the other five would've been even harder.

Kakashi, even knowing Deva's recharge time, needed help against Deva.

We do know that Jiraiya was WTF pwned when it was more than 3 against 1.


Naruto fought all of them (cept the real one), minus the Deva path's magic force push and pull abilities. (So, it was more like a 90-95% Pain whereas Jiraiya fought a 50% Pain.)

Still puts Naruto at a higher feat level than Jiraiya, despite the fact that Naruto still got beaten after disabling or destorying them all except for Deva Path: much better than Jiraiya could accomplish, by far.

Much better than any Ninja could accomplish, canon-wise. Logically, I'm sure Bee or A could do just as good if not better. In the Naruto-verse, however, which is really what counts, only Naruto could have gotten that far (out of Ninja's that were alive.)

Mastered 8-tails > unmastered 8-tails Kyuubi > Chibaku tensei

Mastered 8-tails >> unmastered 6-tails Kyuubi > Sage Mode Naruto ≈ Pain > Jiraiya

Originally posted by dadudemon
We do know that Jiraiya was WTF pwned when it was more than 3 against 1.


Naruto fought all of them (cept the real one), minus the Deva path's magic force push and pull abilities. (So, it was more like a 90-95% Pain whereas Jiraiya fought a 50% Pain.)

Still puts Naruto at a higher feat level than Jiraiya, despite the fact that Naruto still got beaten after disabling or destorying them all except for Deva Path: much better than Jiraiya could accomplish, by far.

Much better than any Ninja could accomplish, canon-wise. Logically, I'm sure Bee or A could do just as good if not better. In the Naruto-verse, however, which is really what counts, only Naruto could have gotten that far (out of Ninja's that were alive.)


A few things of note: Naruto had three giant summons and two Elders able to act independently along with him, who he didn't even have to use the chakra to summon

Naruto has a lot more chakra and a more perfected sage mode than Jiraiya, and his Rasenshuriken is probably more singularly powerful than any of Jiraiya's moves. It was responsible for a lot of the casualties. His Sage Taijutsu is probably stronger too.

Naruto lost when Deva got power back, and would've been killed if that had been what Pain was going for. When he got a second go of it, he barely was able to beat Deva when Deva didn't have any backup, and it used up all of his sage chakra to do so.


After Kyuubi at 8-tails broke free of Chibaku tensei, Pain was planning on just doing another bigger one. At high cost, sure, but he wasn't out of moves just because he was in full Biju mode. Kyuubi does have some advantages over the Ox too even at 6-8, like the protective chakra-shroud which makes it much harder to hurt than a fully released Oxtopus.




Again, I doubt it. Which ones would even be standing after the city-busting Push or be able to escape a Chibaku tensei? 4th might be able to avoid it, 5th could only defend with a chakra reserve none of the rest have, and I could maybe see an ultra-wood barrier providing enough defense, but I doubt 2nd's water could do the same. 3rd's incredibly varied and awesome, but does he have the raw power?

Old Sarutobi wouldn't be able to use his suicide move on main Pain, so he'd probably just be worn down.

The Hokages might be able to win if things went right, but I doubt any would have an easy time of it, and the Hokages as a whole seem to be fairly exceptional as Kage. Pain's the strongest Ninja we've seen in action to date.

And again, you're assuming entirely too much. Remember that everything I'm saying is under the notion that, they would have detailed knowledge of Pein's abilities. That said, why do you assume Sarutobi wouldn't kill Deva first?... like he's just gonna stand there and wait for pain to use that Push attack. With Deva out of the way, he'd kill the one that resurrects (i can't think of which one that is atm)... after that, the other paths are like mid to high-level jounin and Sarutobi proceeds to rape them in a most unsavory way.

You can also add to the fact that we don't have an accurate accounting of any of the Hokage's abilities. We've seen what the 3rd is capable of, but not in his prime; as for the others, we've seen only glimpses and heard rumors.

By your estimation, Minato, one of the greatest ninja of all time, who only died because he faced the most powerful entity in the entire story... wouldn't be able to beat Pein? Ludicrous!

I also take exception to the following statement, "Pain's the strongest Ninja we've seen in action to date."... No, he really isnt. Not even close, really. There were akatsuki member's who were more powerful than Pein; Pein just comes off as uber powerful because no one knows his secret and not being privy to that informtion before engaging Pein is an unbelivable, almost insurmountable handicap.

Originally posted by dadudemon
We do know that Jiraiya was WTF pwned when it was more than 3 against 1.


Naruto fought all of them (cept the real one), minus the Deva path's magic force push and pull abilities. (So, it was more like a 90-95% Pain whereas Jiraiya fought a 50% Pain.)

Still puts Naruto at a higher feat level than Jiraiya, despite the fact that Naruto still got beaten after disabling or destorying them all except for Deva Path: much better than Jiraiya could accomplish, by far.

Much better than any Ninja could accomplish, canon-wise. Logically, I'm sure Bee or A could do just as good if not better. In the Naruto-verse, however, which is really what counts, only Naruto could have gotten that far (out of Ninja's that were alive.) naruto got his ass kicked. if he was allowed to kill, pein could have put one of those spears into naruto's brain while he was incapacitated.

i wouldn't use naruto as an example for defeating pein.

Originally posted by marwash22
And again, you're assuming entirely too much. Remember that everything I'm saying is under the notion that, they would have detailed knowledge of Pein's abilities.

Naruto had info on Pain's abilities and still lost.



Because, (1) Deva is very hard to kill because he's Kage level himself with impressive defense and fighting back, and (2) will be defended and assisted by 5 other bodies who have impressive powers themselves who will be attacking Sarutobi while he tries. It's not like they each fight one by one, they support each other, will aim for backshots, will sacrifice themselves to protect lesser Pains, etc.. Jutsu-immune Pain standing near enough to block attacks on the others is a big worry, Asura's chakra laser is dangerous, giant animals can always been an annoyance, and so on.

And also, it's the resurrection one you really gotta hit first, otherwise you can kill Deva and still be screwed when he comes back right after.

Why do you assume that just because Sarutobi wants Deva dead it'll be a snap? Deva's not just going to stand there and let him do whatever either, he's going to defend himself. He has one of the strongest defenses in the series, and his physical abilities were enough to keep up with Kakashi's speed and sharingan.




We have some general idea. None of them were said to have a super-chakra ability like a biju host. We know what they're most famous for: Wood, Water, array of jutsu, speed, and strength respectively. We saw their resurrected forms fight.

If you're saying we don't know enough, what makes you so sure they'll stomp? It's not like you're saying "we don't know how it'll go," you're saying they'll win easily somehow. I don't think anything we do know says that.



He's probably the one with the best shot, able to teleport fast enough to avoid most of the uber attacks... but keep in mind Pain is also one of the most powerful ninja in the entire story.

By my estimation, he would not have an easy time of it, though.



Which ones do you think have been shown to be more powerful?

Pain comes off as uber-powerful because he's shown uber powerful jutsu and abilities, especially Deva.

His secret made it even trickier to beat him than it looked, but he still showed massive power himself, you shouldn't confuse "he had a secret trick," with "he was weak without it," because he did not need that trick to win any of the fights he came on top in.

Originally posted by Astner
Mastered 8-tails > unmastered 8-tails Kyuubi > Chibaku tensei

Mastered 8-tails >> unmastered 6-tails Kyuubi > Sage Mode Naruto ≈ Pain > Jiraiya
Pain defeated 6-tails Naruto, so i'm sorry but that's just plain wrong.

You make good arguments.

I realize it's a double standard on my part to assert that, because we don't know the full extent of the Hokage's powers, they would easily beat Pein, while assuming the inverse wouldn't be true. My point is that, these people were supposedly, the best ninja around in their respective times so i would venture to guess that they are all at the upper tier of any ninja we will ever see in the series. the 1st and 2nd, along with 3rd and fourth are regarded as titans and they all died due to exigent circumstances.

"More powerful" and "more destructive" are not the same thing; with that said, Madara and Itachi are more powerful than Pein.

I'm don't mean to say that Pein is a scrub, not at all, i just dont think he is the omnipotent force most believe him to be. One more thing, who (of importance) has Pein beaten without having the advantage?

How are Madara and Itachi stronger than Pein? Madara can't do anything but teleport around, he has displayed zero offense at all besides BFR. Meanwhile, Itachi would just plain get his ass handed to him by the full six paths.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Pain defeated 6-tails Naruto, so i'm sorry but that's just plain wrong. you're right and wrong 'cause he didn't exactly beat him. he retreated in effort to use a trump card which is a clear indicator that...

6-tailed Naruto > Pein... in terms of pure power.

Originally posted by marwash22
you're right and wrong 'cause he didn't exactly beat him. he retreated in effort to use a trump card which is a clear indicator that...

6-tailed Naruto > Pein... in terms of pure power.
Pein beat him with a technique that is pure power.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Pein beat him with a technique that is pure power. You're misunderstanding the point. Pein retreated because he knew he was about to get his ass kicked by 6-tailed Naruto. The attack used (can't recall the name of it) is devastating sure, but that doesn't even begin to prove that Pein > 6-tailed Naruto. If this were the case, Pein wouldn't have needed to run away, he could have just kicked Naruto's ass like he did Choji's dad.

Originally posted by marwash22
You're misunderstanding the point. Pein retreated because he knew he was about to get his ass kicked by 6-tailed Naruto. The attack used (can't recall the name of it) is devastating sure, but that doesn't even begin to prove that Pein > 6-tailed Naruto. If this were the case, Pein wouldn't have needed to run away, he could have just kicked Naruto's ass like he did Choji's dad.
He needed to run to Nagato because he wouldn't be strong enough to beat him otherwise, because Pain's power is proportional to how close he is to Nagato. Once close enough, he was capable of defeating 6-tails. Effectively, the Pain that COULDN'T beat 6-tails was a Pain that lacked it's full power. Once at full power, Pain>Six Tails.

Originally posted by King Kandy
He needed to run to Nagato because he wouldn't be strong enough to beat him otherwise, because Pain's power is proportional to how close he is to Nagato. Once close enough, he was capable of defeating 6-tails. Effectively, the Pain that COULDN'T beat 6-tails was a Pain that lacked it's full power. Once at full power, Pain>Six Tails. Ummmmmm, ok! i can support that logic. i guess.

Originally posted by marwash22

"More powerful" and "more destructive" are not the same thing; with that said, Madara and Itachi are more powerful than Pein.

With Madara, or at least current Madara, Pain seems like he'd be the perfect one to take advantage of the 'moment of tangibility' thing, plus jutsu-stopper Preta can prevent space warps. Even minor Pains like Human Path (the soul-ripper) were good at taijutsu.

Itachi I view as one of the strongest ninja in the series, at least when he's not sick. I think he might keel over from disease now, but without the disease and able to use Susano'o freely, I think he is one of the few who might be able to beat Pain on his own. Even so, I think it'd be an epic fight, and I'd probably bet on Pain due to endurance factors, but I can see an argument for Itachi.



Naruto. Plus, he did beat Jiraiya without using his best moves; even if Jiraiya had known, he still IMO would've lost. He temporarily retreated just against Animal, Human, and Preta Paths, that didn't even include the two strongest Pains (IMO Asura's the second strongest).


---
Just to stress one point, ninja fighting without knowing the entire move set of their opponents is the norm. Having the full rundown is an exceptional situation, even famous ninja usually have secrets in reserve. Even knowing the existence of the 7th, I don't think any of his foes learned Pain's full jutsu list.

Itachi using Susanoo is a death wish. It immobilizes him which is exactly what he shouldn't be doing, because Pein can beat him with Chibaku if he does.

Originally posted by marwash22

I'm don't mean to say that Pein is a scrub, not at all, i just dont think he is the omnipotent force most believe him to be. One more thing, who (of importance) has Pein beaten without having the advantage?

Pein also killed Hanzo off panel...

Originally posted by Q99
Naruto. Naruto, really? He had Naruto beaten, i can't deny that; however, you can't really compare he and someone like Jiraiya or Itachi, or Madara or one of the Kage's. Excluding the bijuu's chakra, Naruto is barely a jounin level ninja and I'm probably being generous calling him a jounin.


Originally posted by Q99
Just to stress one point, ninja fighting without knowing the entire move set of their opponents is the norm. Having the full rundown is an exceptional situation, even famous ninja usually have secrets in reserve. Even knowing the existence of the 7th, I don't think any of his foes learned Pain's full jutsu list. Well duh, I think there has been a misunderstanding. Go back to the very beginning of our exchange and you'll see that my entire premise is based on the opponents knowing the basics about Pein, and not necessarily the entire list of jutsu in his arsenal. I'm in agreement that in an ordinary situation, there's only a very select few who can beat Pein. The main thing i was trying to stress is that, if the opponent doesn't have basic info, it's almost impossible to beat all six. Conversely though, if they have the info, it's a much more equalized fight which takes away a lot of the mystique surrounding Pein.




Originally posted by Q99
Plus, he did beat Jiraiya without using his best moves; even if Jiraiya had known, he still IMO would've lost. He temporarily retreated just against Animal, Human, and Preta Paths, that didn't even include the two strongest Pains (IMO Asura's the second strongest). You can't honestly believe that if Jiraiya knew the two vital details about Pein... 1) being that all the bodies share vision and 2) being each bodies basic function, he wouldn't have won. Jiraiya was clearly superior to Pein from the very start and the only reason Pein could keep up is because of the shared vision, which Jiraiya didn't know about. That said, this is probably a poor example because Jiraiya needed to die for Naruto's sake, but you get what i mean now, don't you?

Jiraiya already figured those both out on his own early on... the "secret" that supposedly would have enabled his victory was that Nagato was the 7th path sitting somewhere. Without knowing THAT secret, Jiraiya would have lost no matter what (and even if he did, I think he would have lost anyway).

Originally posted by King Kandy
Jiraiya already figured those both out on his own early on... the "secret" that supposedly would have enabled his victory was that Nagato was the 7th path sitting somewhere. Without knowing THAT secret, Jiraiya would have lost no matter what (and even if he did, I think he would have lost anyway). Agreed. But then that wouldn't be much of a fight at all 'cause the opponent would just go after the 7th and not even bother engaging the other 6.

Also, don't you agree that if an opponent knows about the connected vision, it would completely alter how they'd fight? Stick with me here, I honestly believe that if you give Shikamaru this information and team him with two or three high level ninja, they'd win. Not saying it would be a rape, but they'd be able to do it.

Originally posted by marwash22
Agreed. But then that wouldn't be much of a fight at all 'cause the opponent would just go after the 7th and not even bother engaging the other 6.

Also, don't you agree that if an opponent knows about the connected vision, it would completely alter how they'd fight? Stick with me here, I honestly believe that if you give Shikamaru this information and team him with two or three high level ninja, they'd win. Not saying it would be a rape, but they'd be able to do it.
Jiraiya knew about shared vision... he figured it out very quickly after he started fighting the three bodies. He still lost. So yes it alters how they fight, but they still won't win.

I don't think that shikamaru could do so based on the fact that all of Konoha's ninja could not come up with a coherent plan despite fukusaku telling them about the shared vision, nor can I think of any plausible plan myself that could net them a victory.

Originally posted by marwash22
Naruto, really? He had Naruto beaten, i can't deny that; however, you can't really compare he and someone like Jiraiya or Itachi, or Madara or one of the Kage's. Excluding the bijuu's chakra, Naruto is barely a jounin level ninja and I'm probably being generous calling him a jounin.

Not since Sage mode he hasn't been, he's stronger than Kakashi, who's S-class himself. He beat opponents Kakashi couldn't, without using his biju chakra, and was said to be stronger than "I beat Deidara and am about to attack multiple Kage head on" Sasuke.

Both of the main rivals have been S-class for awhile now and use S-class techniques as their mainstays in combat. Not the strongest of the S-classes yet, but clearly well in that area and growing fast.

Heck, let's not forget a mere two bodies (albeit two of the stronger ones) beat Kakashi when Kakashi had help, without resorting to Deva's stronger jutsu.




Of course I can.

Jiraiya was fighting three of Pain's weaker bodies when he was using sage mode and it was still quite a fight. Deva, the one who's arguably S-class himself, barely showed up until he was already down an arm.


Knowing about the secrets doesn't decrease Pain's power any.


If he knew Pain's secrets, Jiraiya would've inflicted more damage but still lost.

Thinking in a more tactical sense, Pain could absorb virtually any attack thrown at him and I doubt B would figure his secret out and develop a working strategy before Pain wears him out.

Originally posted by Q99
Not since Sage mode he hasn't been, he's stronger than Kakashi, who's S-class himself. He beat opponents Kakashi couldn't, without using his biju chakra, and was said to be stronger than "I beat Deidara and am about to attack multiple Kage head on" Sasuke.

Both of the main rivals have been S-class for awhile now and use S-class techniques as their mainstays in combat. Not the strongest of the S-classes yet, but clearly well in that area and growing fast.

Heck, let's not forget a mere two bodies (albeit two of the stronger ones) beat Kakashi when Kakashi had help, without resorting to Deva's stronger jutsu.




Of course I can.

Jiraiya was fighting three of Pain's weaker bodies when he was using sage mode and it was still quite a fight. Deva, the one who's arguably S-class himself, barely showed up until he was already down an arm.


Knowing about the secrets doesn't decrease Pain's power any.


If he knew Pain's secrets, Jiraiya would've inflicted more damage but still lost.

Deva's well into S-Class, by far. He's no slouch at taijutsu, and his ninjutsu can be Bijuu level in terms of scale. Plus, his *basic* gravitational manipulation is very potent, despite having that limit.
Then there's that uber rain detection jutsu, which while isn't of much use in a fight, is still pretty uber considering he covered an entire village with it.

What I mean by *basic* is that he can't use the other 'aspects' of gravitational manipulation, such as making someone 'weightless', or increasing their weight to such a point that they collapse. It's focused around himself, or another object, like Chibaku Tensei.

Yeah, Jiraiya figured it out fairly quickly, but at that point, he had already used up a considerable amount of chakra... i just think it would go differently for someone who isn't fated to die.

I can't say that i completely disagree with your logic, but I suppose it's just a matter of opinion.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Deva's well into S-Class, by far. He's no slouch at taijutsu, and his ninjutsu can be Bijuu level in terms of scale. Plus, his *basic* gravitational manipulation is very potent, despite having that limit.
Then there's that uber rain detection jutsu, which while isn't of much use in a fight, is still pretty uber considering he covered an entire village with it.

What I mean by *basic* is that he can't use the other 'aspects' of gravitational manipulation, such as making someone 'weightless', or increasing their weight to such a point that they collapse. It's focused around himself, or another object, like Chibaku Tensei. not to mention he can be so much stronger if nagato just uses him minus the other paths (which is most likely the reason he could do all those other jutsu prior to us knowing he was one of six, the rest were in cold storage without using chackra)

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Deva's well into S-Class, by far. He's no slouch at taijutsu, and his ninjutsu can be Bijuu level in terms of scale. Plus, his *basic* gravitational manipulation is very potent, despite having that limit.
Then there's that uber rain detection jutsu, which while isn't of much use in a fight, is still pretty uber considering he covered an entire village with it.

Let's not forget other jutsu he used with more prep- the one-third Chakra clones that can mimic even Akatsuki and are far tougher than normal clones, and the copy-traps he used on team Gai.

He's pretty impressive.



I think you're thinking it backwards; Kishimoto planned for Jiraiya to die, so he made Pain legitimately stronger than him. It's not like he fought below average to make him die, he fought extremely well. Jiraiya wasn't weakened, Pain was always intended to be stronger.


Also with the Frog Elders, they were supplying Jiraiya with sage chakra fairly continuously, so I'm not even sure if he was running low at the end, he's got a lot to begin with.

Wearing someone down is a legitimate strategy for that matter, Summoner Pain's summons are dangerous enough to not be ignored, and used up resources. Pain had a lot more in reserve to wear him down too.

Originally posted by Astner
Thinking in a more tactical sense, Pain could absorb virtually any attack thrown at him and I doubt B would figure his secret out and develop a working strategy before Pain wears him out.
Because that totally worked on Naruto, right? Bee is faster than sage naruto, a smarter fighter, and he has more chakra than sage naruto.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Because that totally worked on Naruto, right? Bee is faster than sage naruto, a smarter fighter, and he has more chakra than sage naruto.

Though one of the only reasons it didn't work is because Sage chakra can turn one to stone.

Kisame did pull off a similar strategy against Bee successfully.

Originally posted by Q99
Though one of the only reasons it didn't work is because Sage chakra can turn one to stone.

Kisame did pull off a similar strategy against Bee successfully.
Yeah, but that only works if he can grab him. That is a viable strategy but I don't know if Pein will be able to execute it.

Originally posted by Q99
]I think you're thinking it backwards; Kishimoto planned for Jiraiya to die, so he made Pain legitimately stronger than him. It's not like he fought below average to make him die, he fought extremely well. Jiraiya wasn't weakened, Pain was always intended to be stronger well, that's what i meant by "fated to die". We've seen characters who are weaker than their opponent win before, but even if Jiraiya could have won (which i think he could've), he wouldn't have due to the story... this is why i said it was probably a poor example.

2 things.

1. Pain, like the entirety of the Uchiha Clan is enitrely dependent on his kekkei genkai for his power. Guys like the Third and Jiraiya were just that freaking powerful.

2. Pain himself admitted that if Jiraiya had knew what he was going up against, then Jiraiya might very well have come-out the victor.


Now, as far as Killer Bee is concerned, the man can turn into the Eight Tails and use the Menacing Ball at will. A extremely powerful technique. This is were being a Jinchuriki with full control over your tailed beast comes in handy. He can all but stomp all over everything except the Deva Path and even then, it's in his favor.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Eight-Tailed_Ox_Menacing_Ball

Absorbing Pein can stop menacing ball.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Absorbing Pein can stop menacing ball.

I hate simplistic tard answers like this one. It devolves into this can counter that but this character can do this and blahblahblah.


Look, even if that's true, it's largely irrelevant as mot of the other Pain forms will be dead or incapacitated in some way long before he thinks it necessary to transform.

I doubt it. Or rather, some bodies can put up a fight while the others hang back, and Pain can fix up ones he loses anyway.

Originally posted by Letum Lettow
I hate simplistic tard answers like this one. It devolves into this can counter that but this character can do this and blahblahblah.


Look, even if that's true, it's largely irrelevant as mot of the other Pain forms will be dead or incapacitated in some way long before he thinks it necessary to transform.
It's not "largely irrelevant", it's Pein's nature to use all of his bodies synergistically, and when large jutsu come he almost always blocks with the absorbing body. Even though he fought mostly with one body against Naruto, his usual tactic is to keep his bodies in good shape, rebirth them when destroyed, and use their powers to fit the situation.

Originally posted by Q99
I doubt it. Or rather, some bodies can put up a fight while the others hang back, and Pain can fix up ones he loses anyway.

Because he did that so easily on a tactically relevant timescale with Naruto.

Oh wait.

He didn't.

Simple fact is is that Killer Bee can more than take down atleast a few of the paths, quickly improving the odds, then stomping the rest. and if the Deva path tries the Gravity thing, poof Eight tailed fox *****. What is lack in power, it makes up for in the fact that Killer Bee has full control over it.

Pain loses. Unfortunately.

Pain had some up front and some in back, Deva in the back row recharging instead of in the front row fighting as would be normal, often sacrificed some to protect others on multiple occasions, and Naruto had significant backup in the form of three giant summons and two elders. It'll take Killerbee more effort to deal with the animal summons than a saged up Naruto with three toads to deliver the final blows.

Taking out a few paths only changes the odds a lot of if it's the right ones. If it's the wrong ones (i.e. not Deva), then healbot Pain has time to revive them. It fixed Asura pretty fast.

Yes, it would take more effort, but that's what being able to transform into the damn eight tails is for.

Or are you not getting this?

He will whittle them down to the point that only the Deva path isn't being repaired, then end up killing him.

Unless your saying the Eight tails' menacing ball is weaker than What naruto used.

taking out the animal and healing paths first would be the wisest thing to do. If Bee does that i doubt Pein would even use the Push thing 'cause when he uses that it wipes him out and without animal, there's no one to keep Bee busy during recharge. Bee Stomps if this is the case, but it's all dependent on the slim chance that Bee kills animal path before it starts summoning.

IT can start cummoning but it will likely attract his attnetion real fast and get killed, as will the healing path eventually. Killer Bee has almost every advantage that Naruto had, minus Sage Mode and possibly summons. But then again, he has the total control of his tailed beast chakra to help offset this plus decades more experince and being wuite a powerful combatant himslef.

Bee doesn't have the verity of counters to stop Jiraya let alone Pain. That Lariat is overrated, it only hit slow stationary targets and failed to actually kill someone.

Jiraya has supierority anyway since he can seal the Jinnchuriki's chakra or just summon spam frogs until Bee feels over whelm. The Hachibi full form can be defeated with ease, it's not like the Kyuubi and can tank everything.

The seven sword style. I think Jiraya can hang with it. It's not like Sasuke was in top form when he could not see the swords style, I think dodging the seven sword style takes a special kinda a ninja one who can see the attack paterms of the different swrod strikes and counter appropiately. You don't need to even be swordsman to counter Bee's swords, Jiraya's odama rasangan could just break through them.

Safe Mode > Vs 2 because he increases your chakra and injects it into the air by channeling natural energy. Hachibiform has shown to be vunreable enough to hit if your strong enough to strike it down and Giant rasnagan and toad oil can do the trick.

Plus J man has the elemental advantage so Bee's raiton taijutsu will be useless.

Jiraiya vs Bee is a really tough match one that i would probly favor Jiraiya due to his more varied attacks as well as additional back up in the form of Sage frogs. Bee definitely wont be defeating pain who to date IS the most powerful ninja actually shown in the show.

naruto 4 vtails wounded jiraiya greatly i think bee should be able to do the same.....that lariat is something fierce

9 tails > 8 tails. Jiraya can harm the cloak just like Sasuke did with his chidori eiso and amaterasu.

Originally posted by yungz22
naruto 4 vtails wounded jiraiya greatly i think bee should be able to do the same.....that lariat is something fierce that logic is kinda flawed seeing as Jiraiya wasn't trying to kill or even fight Naruto when the 4tailed-cloak appeared.

Oh, I thought this was Killer Bee vs Pain....

Hmmm, Jiraiya might win. Maybe.

Originally posted by marwash22
that logic is kinda flawed seeing as Jiraiya wasn't trying to kill or even fight Naruto when the 4tailed-cloak appeared.


he opened narutos seal he was expecting a fight regaerdless whether or not he was tryinng to fight he still got seriously wounded

I'm not arguing his expectations, i simply meant that, he wasn't trying to kill Naruto like he would be in this situation. In that instance, his first priority was Naruto's safety.

jiraya gets stomped

cut it out y'all

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Bee gets stomped

cut it out y'all Nigga gon get mirked.

Originally posted by Letum Lettow
Yes, it would take more effort, but that's what being able to transform into the damn eight tails is for.

Or are you not getting this?

He will whittle them down to the point that only the Deva path isn't being repaired, then end up killing him.


And he's meanwhile taking a lot of damage, might be trapped in Deva's sphere, hurt bad by a big gravity push, might get chakra drain at some point, has to deal with a lot of summons, etc. etc.. He's getting worn down and hurt in return, you know.

I'm saying Pain's combined power is strong enough to prevent that from happening, he's got a lot of dangerous attacks KB will have to deal with, it won't just be him tearing through bodies.

Pain's overall lasting power is extreme too. You seem to also be severely overestimating repair times. 'The point that only the Deva path isn't being repaired,'? It took 5~ seconds to repair Asura, turn around for fixing a 'killed' path is very short. Trying to outdo the repair rate is suicidal, the only real option is trying to take out the heal path or KB's flat out doomed. He probably will get to heal path sooner or later, but with Deva path in the way, it will not be easy and he'll take a lot of lumps trying.



Transforming into 8-tails is not a sure win, Pain is without a doubt dangerous to do major damage to him in that state. Asura can inflict damage to him physically (big chakra laser or blades or missiles), Animal can send summons to attack, and Deva can smush him or sphere him.



Naruto didn't win the fight, so it could be stronger and still not win it for KB. Raw power of a jutsu isn't all that wins fights.... and Deva Pain's city busting push has more power than either.

Plus even if he charges up for one, that's not a guarantee that it'll hit, that he won't be hit first (gravity blast has a shorter charge time), Preta won't absorb it, Animal won't summon the others out of the way, etc..

Hmm I wonder, Jiraiya has seals that can supress Kyuubi, I wonder if they would work on Hachibi.

Well those only reinforce an already sealed Kyuubi's seal, the Hachibi is not really sealed, is it?

I thought the seal Jiraiya gave Kakashi was basically just the same as what Yamato does. Suppress Kyuubi's chakra when it takes over Naruto. Hachibi's chakra should still be able to suppressed, it not being caged up shouldn't matter should it? Though Naruto and Bee having two different seals used to seal the beasts inside might matter but I don't know.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Well those only reinforce an already sealed Kyuubi's seal, the Hachibi is not really sealed, is it?

It's sealed, hence KB as it's jinchuuriki, the iron armor seal or something is what it's called, KB mentioned it a couple issues back...

Jiraya can seal the 8 tails since the seal Yondaime put in Naruto is something Jiraya can do as well.

The eight tails is already sealed. Inside Killer Bee.

It not only uses a different seal but the one the Hokage used is dangerous to the user.

Originally posted by killermover
Jiraya can seal the 8 tails since the seal Yondaime put in Naruto is something Jiraya can do as well.
Killerbee has an "iron armor" seal, Naruto has a "Four Elements" seal.