"Freedom Flotilla" Attacks

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Bicnarok

Bicnarok
Now Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and Lebanese Prime Minister Saad Hariri said that Israel's attack could ignite a war in the region.

the Mierde really is hitting the fan in the World, N.Korea, Iran now this.

All talk and no action though IMO unless Turkey get involved, the Arab countries would get another good hiding from Israel.

Ordo
*Facepalm*

Bibi needs to go.

RE: Blaxican
Third World Countries are such a pain in the ass; I don't know why we work so hard to not let them fight amongst themselves. We should just sit back and allow these countries to destroy each other. It can be video taped and put on Pay-Per-View, like Wrestlemania. Then when Iran and Isreal and Korea and all these other places are all war torn and ****ed up, we can just roll in and set up some democracy and give them liberty and oil contracts.

Ordo
Except...Isreal isnt a 3rd world country....

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Third World Countries are such a pain in the ass; I don't know why we work so hard to not let them fight amongst themselves. We should just sit back and allow these countries to destroy each other. It can be video taped and put on Pay-Per-View, like Wrestlemania. Then when Iran and Isreal and Korea and all these other places are all war torn and ****ed up, we can just roll in and set up some democracy and give them liberty and oil contracts.

Israel and Iran aren't third world countries, they have serious military power. That's the problem.

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Third World Countries are such a pain in the ass; I don't know why we work so hard to not let them fight amongst themselves. We should just sit back and allow these countries to destroy each other.

My thoughts exactly. Remember that line in Jurassic Park by Dr. Grant: "You can't suppress 65 million years of gut-instinct"? Well, the UN tries to do the same with ancient feuds that are too strong for some "resolution" passed by them to dictate. The world should just give them an alotted time to duke it out and slaughter the hell out of each other. Because what's been going on since 1948 is like advertising a big boxing match that never actually happens.

SamZED
Wait, so Israeli troops murder a bunch of innocent people and they're actually gonna get away with that?
Dude, no way!!!msn-oh

Liberator
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Third World Countries are such a pain in the ass; I don't know why we work so hard to not let them fight amongst themselves. We should just sit back and allow these countries to destroy each other. It can be video taped and put on Pay-Per-View, like Wrestlemania. Then when Iran and Isreal and Korea and all these other places are all war torn and ****ed up, we can just roll in and set up some democracy and give them liberty and oil contracts.

I sincerely hope this was all sarcasm. You do realise the reason the majority of these "third world" (whatever that means) countries have problems because of foreign/western imperialism.

Hmm yes we can give them the loving and caring capitalist regimes we have here in the western world, that will solve everything!

RE: Blaxican
Originally posted by Ordo
Except...Isreal isnt a 3rd world country.... Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Israel and Iran aren't third world countries, they have serious military power. That's the problem.

Yeah they are.

Don't try to bring up your silly little "facts" and "statistics". Those don't work on me.

Originally posted by Liberator
I sincerely hope this was all sarcasm. You do realise the reason the majority of these "third world" (whatever that means) countries have problems because of foreign/western imperialism.

Hmm yes we can give them the loving and caring capitalist regimes we have here in the western world, that will solve everything!

Why do you hate America? Is it because of our freedom, or is it the hats?

Symmetric Chaos
Footage of the attack:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo
gYjkLUcbJWo

Pause it at 0:53. What does it look like that guy is holding?

Not to bias anyone who wants to look I'll spoiler my own thoughts: It's a paintball gun. Seems that at least some of the soldiers weren't even issued real weapons

No matter how you slice it the people aboard the ship are somewhat less blameless than was implied.

Colossus-Big C
florida rocks

SamZED
You cant get killed with a paintball gun though. First kill someone and then take a video of others defending themselvs with sticks and make it look like you were the poor victim that was attacked for no reason. A video presented and edited by Israel, a cheap attempt to cover their asses. Some of the people might've been shot at that point already. The troops had no right to board the ships in the first place, even if the people attacked first (which they most likely didnt) it would've been a natural responce for their ship being taken over. Doesnt make them any less innocent.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by SamZED
You cant get killed with a paintball gun though.

And when you're out to kill people you don't arm your soldiers with paintball guns at all.

Originally posted by SamZED
First kill someone and then take a video of others defending themselvs with sticks and make it look like you were the poor victim that was attacked for no reason.

First of all you can't base your ire on something you just made up. Secondly it doesn't make it look like they were attacked for no reason, it makes it look they were attacked for landing on the boat.

Originally posted by SamZED
A video presented and edited by Israel, a cheap attempt to cover their asses. Some of the people might've been shot at that point. already.

Evidence? Because in this video shot by the activists themselves we see that them attack the soldiers before their feet even touch the deck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB-Mk4bFz-U

MB-Mk4bFz-U
skip to 5:50

The idea of them being peaceful is a myth.

Originally posted by SamZED
The troops had no right to board the ships in the first place, even if the people attacked first (which they most likely didnt) it would've been a natural responce for their ship being taken over. Doesnt make them any less innocent.

The fact they they attacked the soldiers first makes they a lot less innocent. Obviously the Israeli soldiers should have killed anyone but the facts shift things considerably away from Israel as some sort of murderous evil empire.

Liberator
I can't even tell whats going on at 5:50 it's a mess of people.

Israel is such scum

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Liberator
I can't even tell whats going on at 5:50 it's a mess of people.

If you go back to 5:47 you can see them with chairs held over their heads (left) and the first soldier dropping toward the ground (right). By 5:50 they've mobbed him.

Liberator
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If you go back to 5:47 you can see them with chairs held over their heads (left) and the first soldier dropping toward the ground (right). By 5:50 they've mobbed him.


Well to be fair, they are Israeli soldiers armed with guns, and the people seem to be Anti-Israeli.

Its either they let him come down and possibly shoot everyone or mob him and disarm him.

GCG
No. Nobody was attacked by the IDF when they grapelled on the other vessels in the flotilla.
Therfore no reason to mob anyone with metal bars and knives.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Liberator
Well to be fair, they are Israeli soldiers armed with guns, and the people seem to be Anti-Israeli.

Its either they let him come down and possibly shoot everyone or mob him and disarm him.

In 2009 a boat on basically the same mission was boarded by Israeli soldiers without incident.

In 2008 a boat also on the same mission was stopped by the Israeli navy. No one was killed but the ship was damaged.

Also in 2008 yet another boat full of activists was confronted by the Israeli navy. Before anything could happen the soldiers were called back.

If these activists seriously thought they were going to die then they clearly didn't have a decent understanding of what they were doing.


This idea that Israel is out to just murder people willy-nilly is much more dangerous than Israel itself.

Liberator
Well they are out to murder people, they do every day in Palestine.

But I see your point with this incident, and I admit I'm pretty ignorant on what happened so I'll leave the finer details with you. It's just not really the brightest idea to go rapelling down onto a ship with people who hate you.

GCG
It's not a bright idea either to go attack trained soldiers with firearms and body armour with sticks and knives. Its suicidal.

inimalist
This is the stupidest incident ever.

1) Isreal said from day 1 they were going to stop you, yet, in the world media, all these idiot activist groups are acting astonished that the Israeli's wouldn't let them in.

2) there is no 2. WTF. Don't **** with Israel, they will shoot you, this isn't news.

Bicnarok

Symmetric Chaos

Bicnarok

Liberator

Mindship
I was wondering if maybe this was actually a cunning plan by some Arab group. After all it was clear that Israel was going to try to stop the Flotilla.
It's starting to look more and more like this may be the case. The flotilla (largely Turkish, and they haven't been the most dependable of proWestern allies) was warned it would be boarded (previous flotilla boardings in 2008 went without incident); the "peace" activists were all too quick with metal bars and such to attack paintball-armed soldiers (who were not firing anything as they came down); and Israel offered to transport the humanitarian aid themselves (pending inspection), but this option was refused.

This would hardly be the first time Israel's enemies tried to set Israel up to make it look like the bad guy. And unfortunately for Israel, this was not the first time -- nor will it likely be the last -- that Israel failed to implement its plans as nonviolently as hoped.

And of course, there's the ol' double-standard Israel is always held to. Can you imagine if Israel had just torpedoed the ship ala N. Korea?

Liberator
I'm really interested to know what became of all the supplies the activists were bringing to help the oppressed Palestinians.

Did they just... disappear?

inimalist
The Israeli's are funneling them into Gaza as they said they would in the first place

Liberator
Hmm, I wish I could find a clear report of how many supplies the activists had and how many are actually going to reach Gaza.

inimalist
why? You think the Israeli's are just going to burn it?

Liberator
No not burn it maybe "confiscate" some of the material (take it for themselves).

All I know is the 'activists' brought in a lot of medical supplies, timber for rebuilding homes, and a few other goods. I just wish there were more reliable figures.

inimalist
Israel has no real need of material aide, and they already let food aide through their blockade, so I can't see that happening to any major degree, especially now that they are under such intense international scrutiny

though, it would be hilarious if they gave it to the settlers

EDIT: though, lets not forget, ALL of it would have gotten through if the activists hadn't thought it was a good idea to provoke the Israeli military

jaden101
Originally posted by Liberator
No not burn it maybe "confiscate" some of the material (take it for themselves).

All I know is the 'activists' brought in a lot of medical supplies, timber for rebuilding homes, and a few other goods. I just wish there were more reliable figures.

No...What you're really hoping for is figures that will make Israel look like the demon you so obviously want them to be. Despite the fact that in this case they were clearly attacked while doing a mission that many nations do with ships coming into their waters and do without incident.

I've no doubt that if figures came to light showing that every single bit of the aid made its way to Gaza then you'd simply reply with "I don't believe it...Israel is the devil".

Ordo
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
My thoughts exactly. Remember that line in Jurassic Park by Dr. Grant: "You can't suppress 65 million years of gut-instinct"? Well, the UN tries to do the same with ancient feuds that are too strong for some "resolution" passed by them to dictate.

I think the UN hopes that in the next 65 million years we'll suppress that instinct.

Originally posted by SamZED
Dude, no way!!!msn-oh

Except they do it on a large scale at least...you know...once a year or so.a

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The fact they they attacked the soldiers first makes they a lot less innocent. Obviously the Israeli soldiers should have killed anyone but the facts shift things considerably away from Israel as some sort of murderous evil empire.

I bet it was the deck chairs. The new WMDs sad

Though frankly if a soldier dropped onto my boat in international waters, I'd throw a deck chair at him too.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Ordo
...Though frankly if a soldier dropped onto my boat in international waters, I'd throw a deck chair at him too.

And the soldiers would shoot you with their M16s, oh wait, they didn't have M16s. Ok, let me revise that statement... And the soldiers would shoot you with their paint ball guns.

Bicnarok

Rogue Jedi
Seems like the authorities would have some non lethal weaponry at hand.

Shakyamunison

GCG
Frozen paintballs are so much better. wink

One Free Man
Originally posted by GCG
It's not a bright idea either to go attack trained soldiers with firearms and body armour with sticks and knives. Its suicidal. especially jewish soldiers.

congratulations to israel for having the balls to put a few dumb-asses in the ground.

Ordo
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
And the soldiers would shoot you with their M16s, oh wait, they didn't have M16s. Ok, let me revise that statement... And the soldiers would shoot you with their paint ball guns.

But apparently they have no problem shooting you with handguns.

...especially since the passenger's life vests proved to be an effective protection from paintballs.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Ordo
But apparently they have no problem shooting you with handguns.

...especially since the passenger's life vests proved to be an effective protection from paintballs.

I have news for you, if you take a pipe and go up against a police officer you will be shot.

Ordo
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I have news for you, if you take a pipe and go up against a police officer you will be shot.

I have news for you: the police are not the armed services. On top of that, there is the whol issue of wether or not boarding these boats in the first place was legal. If a cop storms your house without a warrant, you're totally within your rights to take up a pipe.

I know such issues are really complex and difficult for you to understand. I have faith you will understand.

Besides, this is totally negating the entire fact that the activists probably wanted this to happen. And it did. And Isreal has already lost the PR war.

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by Ordo
If a cop storms your house without a warrant, you're totally within your rights to take up a pipe.


What the f**k?

Unless you wanna get swiss-cheesed, no one in their right mind would do that.

Warrant or no warrant, a cop storming a house is totally out of their element, has his/her gun drawn and is ready shoot anything that moves. Ask any cop: house calls are the scariest art of their job.

Ordo
That doesn't conflict at all with my statement. But since it was a dumb analogy that I tried to dismiss in my last post, its not worth continuing.

The point is Isreal's deputy foreign minister described the aid group as: “The armada of hate and violence in support of Hamas, a terror organization, was a premeditated and outrageous provocation. The organizers are well known for their ties to global jihad, al Qaeda, and Hamas. They have a history of arms smuggling and deadly terror.”

Note, this group included ships carrying humanitarian aid, human-rights workers, about a dozen doctors, some 30 journalists, two retired U.S. diplomats (Amb. Edward Peck and Ret. Col. Ann Wright), a Nobel Peace Prize winner (Mairead Maguire), a former U.N. assistant secretary-general (Denis Halliday), and several members of parliament from Ireland, Germany, Sweden, Turkey, and Malaysia.

*facepalm*

FAIL.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Ordo
a Nobel Peace Prize winner

That one sounds like a fairly legitimate threat.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Ordo
I have news for you: the police are not the armed services. On top of that, there is the whol issue of wether or not boarding these boats in the first place was legal. If a cop storms your house without a warrant, you're totally within your rights to take up a pipe.

I know such issues are really complex and difficult for you to understand. I have faith you will understand.

Besides, this is totally negating the entire fact that the activists probably wanted this to happen. And it did. And Isreal has already lost the PR war.

So, in your world view, Israel does not have the right to defend its self?

BTW if you insult me again, I will place you on permanent ignore.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Ordo
I have news for you: the police are not the armed services. On top of that, there is the whol issue of wether or not boarding these boats in the first place was legal. If a cop storms your house without a warrant, you're totally within your rights to take up a pipe.

More like take it UP the pipe.

One Free Man
Originally posted by Shakyamunison

BTW if you insult me again, I will place you on permanent ignore. Aren't you just shaking in your boots? I mean... UGH to never have shaky read your thoughts again!! ITS HORRIFYING.

sunnyday
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Israel and Iran aren't third world countries, they have serious military power. That's the problem.
yeah, a big problem

Ordo
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, in your world view, Israel does not have the right to defend its self?

BTW if you insult me again, I will place you on permanent ignore.

I really dont care about internet butthurt. It seemed to me that my jab was pretty damn mild.

What Isreal is doing is way beyond defending itself, even to the point of breaking international law. The problem with Isreal and its current insane government is that it views the very existance of Palestine as a threat to its existance. Thus, taking down Palestinians, anyone giving food to Palestinians, even US presidents and nobel peace prize winners who are trying to seek rational, interntationally supported solutions to the conflict is "defending its existance." Thats not defense, its paranoia and psychosis and Isreal is starting to act more like the rougue states it complains about.

The problem is, no one buys their bull anymore. Isreal is a nuclear nation with a tremendously powerful and advanced military. They're not the little guy, and they're damn near belligerant. If Isreal was Iran we'd be at war right now. DPRK did the same to South Korea a few weeks ago and look what kind of incident THAT caused...and at least that was a military target, not a civilian aid convoy.

Ushgarak
The same thing? Are you completely nuts?

This was a cocked up boarding action- which, btw, is legal if the blockade is legal, even if it is in international waters. The intent was to seize the ships, not... sink them and kill everyone on board. The casualties are because it went wrong.

DPRK attacked and sunk a military vessel for no reason. A massacre with no provocation. The two are not even remotely comparable.

Bicnarok

Ushgarak
Well obviously, regardless of the literal legality of it, Israel would have done much better to wait for them to cross into their waters.

Of course, they didn't think they would cock up the boarding, which is where it has all gone wrong. Sure, it is likely the protesters were inflammatory and provocative, but Israel was the nation putting armed people onto the boat- the onus was on them to handle the situation properly. They cannot avoid responsibility for the deaths.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well obviously, regardless of the literal legality of it, Israel would have done much better to wait for them to cross into their waters.

Of course, they didn't think they would cock up the boarding, which is where it has all gone wrong. Sure, it is likely the protesters were inflammatory and provocative, but Israel was the nation putting armed people onto the boat- the onus was on them to handle the situation properly. They cannot avoid responsibility for the deaths.

Though your words make a simple concept, it still amazes me that many, which includes the "expert" political commentary on cable news networks, seem to miss this.

Those tortilla (cause that's what flotilla reminds me of) Lil sh*ts should be called for what they are: instigators.

Israeli military should be called for what it did: hyperventilating, overzealous, war-mongers.

Liberator
I think thats a fair statement dadudemon, forget the petty bias, the 'peace activists' instigated the whole thing but the Israeli's were their typical selves, excessively violent and as you said, overzealous.

Ms.Marvel
i read that the Israelis found gas masks and bullet proof vests as well as individual envelops containing thousands of dollars, amongst the cargo.

so, maybe there was more to this then just "providing aid".

Ordo
Which is why this whole scenario is ridiculous, because it clearly was a trap. Not only did Isreal all out take the bait, which had a very thick peace activist coating, but they killed civilians doing it.

And this of course gets back to the whole immature argument about Isreal "defending itself." Fania Oz-Salzberger summed it up well. "The army...is only good for one thing: to fight those who are aiming a gun at me. Not those who dislike me, demonize me, or hope to see me dead."

Isreal is doing more and more of the latter. Its not like Isreal doesnt get a lot of sympathy by default given its history, but antics like this wear that down, especially in the context of the past few years.

inimalist
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
i read that the Israelis found gas masks and bullet proof vests as well as individual envelops containing thousands of dollars, amongst the cargo.

so, maybe there was more to this then just "providing aid".

Turkey searched the vessels before they left and said they were clean, so it might not be accurate

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
i read that the Israelis found gas masks and bullet proof vests as well as individual envelops containing thousands of dollars, amongst the cargo.

so, maybe there was more to this then just "providing aid".

Of course there was. No one seems to remember that weapons have been found on relief shipment to Gaza in the past. Israel had every right, to board and inspect the cargo.

jaden101
Originally posted by dadudemon

Israeli military should be called for what it did: hyperventilating, overzealous, war-mongers.

They can hardly be pacifists given their situation. They are a tiny Jewish Island in the middle of a massive ocean of Islamic states that would like nothing better than to wipe them off the face of the earth...People didn't exactly like the regime that tried that before.

I'm not going to be taking sides on it though. I know Israel **** up as much as they get things right but when you're being subjected to an average of 10 rocket attacks from Gaza every day then you have to try every measure to stop those weapons getting to Gaza in the 1st place.

One Free Man
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169

One Free Man
What's sad is I couldn't find that on an american newspaper.

Ordo
Maybe because the IDF "finding" the people it wants to find isnt really considered credible? Besides, I dont see how that was really new information.

Originally posted by jaden101
They can hardly be pacifists given their situation. They are a tiny Jewish Island in the middle of a massive ocean of Islamic states that would like nothing better than to wipe them off the face of the earth...People didn't exactly like the regime that tried that before.

Yeah, every Islamic state is committed to nuking Isreal.

One Free Man
Oh, sure, the israeli government is lying. After not giving a **** about anything anyone has said for 50 years, they're going to start lying in order to look better in america's pussy eye.

Autokrat
Israel has an extensive public relations section. Israel considers it one of the key fronts of their conflict.

One Free Man
So israel's the bad guy even if it is reputed that they found terrorists aboard?

Autokrat
I said nothing of the like. I was just explaining that Israel is deeply concerned with PR.

Liberator
Israel is always the bad guy, anyone who uses the military to oppress another people is the bad guy.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Liberator
Israel is always the bad guy, anyone who uses the military to oppress another people is the bad guy.

I'm sure if rockets were raining down on London, the military would do nothing.

Ordo
Originally posted by One Free Man
Oh, sure, the israeli government is lying. After not giving a **** about anything anyone has said for 50 years, they're going to start lying in order to look better in america's pussy eye.

Apparently you havent been following this conflict more than 3 days.

Isreal has a an extensive PR campaign that frequently distorts ro releases convinient information at opportune times. Its not an outright lie, but its a clear distortion to try to drive the narrative in their direction. They use it all the time and its not really considered a neutral source. Hence no global reaction to it.

Note my earlier comment, written by an Isreali herself. There is a difference between using your military to shoot back at people shooting at you and using them to weed out anyone in the world who may not like you. Its also different when you arrest journalists, nobel peace prize winners, and former diplomats who are clearly on an aid mission cleared by Turkey, a majority Muslim nation that is (was) so freindly with Isreal that they conduct joint military training exercises.

As far as "america's pussy eye," if there is one nation that has been both as belligeratn as Isreal its the US. If there is one nation that has been as supportive of Isreal and its agressive policies, its the US. After 50 years of that, when the US askes for concessions from Isreal and the Palestinian State to achieve a peace agreement, we're "puss"ies now? Please....esepcially when Washington has been fairly silent on this issue vs several European governments pulled their ambassadors immediately. The global reaction has been way more negative than anything Washington has put out.

Bicnarok
Originally posted by One Free Man
So israel's the bad guy even if it is reputed that they found terrorists aboard?

Define terrorists eek! rolling on floor laughing Nowadays if you fart in the wrong direction your a terrorist.

Liberator
Originally posted by Bicnarok
Define terrorists eek! rolling on floor laughing Nowadays if you fart in the wrong direction your a terrorist.

The sad thing about this statement is its true.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by One Free Man
So israel's the bad guy even if it is reputed that they found terrorists aboard?

I don't think Israel is a good source for information about bad things Israel has done.

Parmaniac
Originally posted by One Free Man
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169
"According to the defense officials, the IDF has identified about 50 passengers on the ship who could have terrorist connections with global jihad-affiliated groups."

According to the united states the iraque had WMD.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Parmaniac
"According to the defense officials, the IDF has identified about 50 passengers on the ship who could have terrorist connections with global jihad-affiliated groups."

According to the united states the iraque had WMD.


roll eyes (sarcastic)

Parmaniac
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
roll eyes (sarcastic) roll eyes (sarcastic)

Mr Parker

jaden101
Originally posted by Ordo



Yeah, every Islamic state is committed to nuking Isreal.

And the award for strawman of the day goes to....

jaden101
Originally posted by Mr Parker
Israel definetely came on shooting unprovoked.The UN should cut off aide to them as should we.

Clearly someone hasn't seen the footage of the attacks which clearly show the Israeli troops being beaten with iron bars before they've even unhooked from the rappel ropes.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by jaden101
Clearly someone hasn't seen the footage of the attacks which clearly show the Israeli troops being beaten with iron bars before they've even unhooked from the rappel ropes.

It was the Israelis using mind control to make the peaceful people on the ship act the way they did. Those evil Israelis. laughing out loud

Ordo
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I'm sure if rockets were raining down on London, the military would do nothing.

I'm glad you agree with the Palestinian cause.

KidRock
Play stupid games and win stupid prizes.

Stop at the checkpoint next time, hippies.

One Free Man
Originally posted by Ordo
I'm glad you agree with the Palestinian cause. I don't even get wtf you mean by this confused

Bicnarok

Ushgarak
Again, you cannot just call it illegal. It is actually legal to stop vessels entering a legally declared blockade, so long as you have made sure of their course (which they had).

It's extreme, but it is legal.

Meanwhile, if your pirates were in overwhelming military force nearby you, you'd still be bloody stupid for doing what you just said.

Ordo
AP officaially confirmed that a US citizen was killed in the attack. No comment from the USG yet.

inimalist
Originally posted by Ordo
AP officaially confirmed that a US citizen was killed in the attack. No comment from the USG yet.

the plot thickens....

One Free Man
US citizens aren't immune from this stupid crap.

Ordo
Originally posted by One Free Man
US citizens aren't immune from this stupid crap.

No. Infact they are "shot at close range five times, including four times in the head."

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by One Free Man
US citizens aren't immune from this stupid crap.

All they have to do is stay off ships that are trying to run a blockade.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Ordo
No. Infact they are "shot at close range five times, including four times in the head."

I would make a joke about American being badass but that's actually pretty sickening.

WickedDynamite
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Again, you cannot just call it illegal. It is actually legal to stop vessels entering a legally declared blockade, so long as you have made sure of their course (which they had).

It's extreme, but it is legal.

Meanwhile, if your pirates were in overwhelming military force nearby you, you'd still be bloody stupid for doing what you just said.

Do you remember when the three British Naval officers were arrested by the Iranians and were going to be put on trial for espionage?

It's hysterical how the Iranian Government condems the actions of the Israelis on the Floatilla and yet they forget their own wreckless actions.

Ordo
Originally posted by WickedDynamite
It's hysterical how the Iranian Government condems the actions of the Israelis on the Floatilla and yet they forget their own wreckless actions.

The more poignant point is that the converse of that statement is also true.

SamZED
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And when you're out to kill people you don't arm your soldiers with paintball guns at all. Were the people killed with the paintball guns?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos

First of all you can't base your ire on something you just made up. Secondly it doesn't make it look like they were attacked for no reason, it makes it look they were attacked for landing on the boat.

Evidence? Because in this video shot by the activists themselves we see that them attack the soldiers before their feet even touch the deck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB-Mk4bFz-U
Which they had no rights to do in the first place. I didnt make anything up, the thing is - that's not an evidence, that's a short video that shows activists defending themselvs with a few PIPES and CHAIRS from military troops that boarded they ship and posted a conviniently edited video that in no way excuses a murder of several innocent people and does not prove their ridiculous claims about activists support terrosists and attacking them first for no reason.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos

The idea of them being peaceful is a myth.
The idea of them supporting terrorists is a myth.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos

The fact they they attacked the soldiers first makes they a lot less innocent. Obviously the Israeli soldiers should have killed anyone but the facts shift things considerably away from Israel as some sort of murderous evil empire. 1. They didnt attack first. 2. Even if they did they had every right to do that seeing how the troops boarded their ships with no right to do so, a thing only some stupid pirates would do. 3. Doesnt make them any less innocent and in no way excuses what the troops did.

A state that claims equel rights to everyone but denies people their basic human rights, uses fear and weapons to achieve their goals, kill innocent people (including children) and peacufell demonstrants all the time saying they were "terrorists", destroy entire villages and does not give a rats ass about UN resolutions. It's not an evil empire, its a terrorist state.


Originally posted by Ordo
That doesn't conflict at all with my statement. But since it was a dumb analogy that I tried to dismiss in my last post, its not worth continuing.

The point is Isreal's deputy foreign minister described the aid group as: “The armada of hate and violence in support of Hamas, a terror organization, was a premeditated and outrageous provocation. The organizers are well known for their ties to global jihad, al Qaeda, and Hamas. They have a history of arms smuggling and deadly terror.”

Note, this group included ships carrying humanitarian aid, human-rights workers, about a dozen doctors, some 30 journalists, two retired U.S. diplomats (Amb. Edward Peck and Ret. Col. Ann Wright), a Nobel Peace Prize winner (Mairead Maguire), a former U.N. assistant secretary-general (Denis Halliday), and several members of parliament from Ireland, Germany, Sweden, Turkey, and Malaysia.

*facepalm*

FAIL. laughing thumb up



Excuse # 1. The people on the ship had weapons and wanted to deliver them to hamas.

And we all know that Hamas (that gets millions of $ from Iran like every month) is completely helpless without 6 iron pipes and an army knife. laughing out loud

Excuse # 2. Israel says it was a provocation. They also say that ships were full of gas bombs and guns.

And we all know that loading your ships full of bombs is the best way to set someone up. thumb up




Truth: Israeli troops got on board, murdered several people with the "paintball guns", and posted a montage of other people defending themselvs with the iron pipes and chairs as a "proof" that they're the poor victim here and BAM - they're the good guys again. Well played.

Ms.Marvel
wow. in all of that post, you didnt state a single thing that could be considered something thats more than just your opinion. no expression

Liberator
Worded a bit roughly SamZED does make a good point in saying, "A state that claims equel rights to everyone but denies people their basic human rights, uses fear and weapons to achieve their goals, kill innocent people (including children) and peacufell demonstrants all the time saying they were "terrorists", destroy entire villages and does not give a rats ass about UN resolutions."

I'm surprised the media doesn't report on any of the other hundreds of horrors the Israeli's commit everyday in the Gaza Strip.

Regardless of who provoked who the end game is clear: Israel is indeed not afraid to kill people when they see it fit as being necessary, we all know and can agree to that.

This is just more fuel to the fire for Israel, they aren't helping themselves by massacring a bunch of activists.

SamZED
Originally posted by Liberator
Worded a bit roughly SamZED does make a good point in saying, "A state that claims equel rights to everyone but denies people their basic human rights, uses fear and weapons to achieve their goals, kill innocent people (including children) and peacufell demonstrants all the time saying they were "terrorists", destroy entire villages and does not give a rats ass about UN resolutions."

I'm surprised the media doesn't report on any of the other hundreds of horrors the Israeli's commit everyday in the Gaza Strip.

Regardless of who provoked who the end game is clear: Israel is indeed not afraid to kill people when they see it fit as being necessary, we all know and can agree to that.

This is just more fuel to the fire for Israel, they aren't helping themselves by massacring a bunch of activists.

Thanks, man. And agreed, it wasnt a wise thing for Israel to do.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
wow. in all of that post, you didnt state a single thing that could be considered something thats more than just your opinion. no expression Point out parts of my post that are just my "opinion". I'll be happy to provide proofs and exact numbers in the next post.

Mr Parker
Originally posted by SamZED
Were the people killed with the paintball guns?

Which they had no rights to do in the first place. I didnt make anything up, the thing is - that's not an evidence, that's a short video that shows activists defending themselvs with a few PIPES and CHAIRS from military troops that boarded they ship and posted a conviniently edited video that in no way excuses a murder of several innocent people and does not prove their ridiculous claims about activists support terrosists and attacking them first for no reason.

The idea of them supporting terrorists is a myth.

1. They didnt attack first. 2. Even if they did they had every right to do that seeing how the troops boarded their ships with no right to do so, a thing only some stupid pirates would do. 3. Doesnt make them any less innocent and in no way excuses what the troops did.

A state that claims equel rights to everyone but denies people their basic human rights, uses fear and weapons to achieve their goals, kill innocent people (including children) and peacufell demonstrants all the time saying they were "terrorists", destroy entire villages and does not give a rats ass about UN resolutions. It's not an evil empire, its a terrorist state.


laughing thumb up



Excuse # 1. The people on the ship had weapons and wanted to deliver them to hamas.

And we all know that Hamas (that gets millions of $ from Iran like every month) is completely helpless without 6 iron pipes and an army knife. laughing out loud

Excuse # 2. Israel says it was a provocation. They also say that ships were full of gas bombs and guns.

And we all know that loading your ships full of bombs is the best way to set someone up. thumb up




Truth: Israeli troops got on board, murdered several people with the "paintball guns", and posted a montage of other people defending themselvs with the iron pipes and chairs as a "proof" that they're the poor victim here and BAM - they're the good guys again. Well played.

well done.great post. thumb up you told it like it was.Yeah you did not make anything up.this is all true what you said.some people are naive around here though and will believe anything Isreal says. roll eyes (sarcastic)

King Kandy
Originally posted by Ordo
AP officaially confirmed that a US citizen was killed in the attack. No comment from the USG yet.
He was of Turkish descent. Obviously not a REAL American.

Shakyamunison
Israel has right to board Gaza-bound ships: Biden



http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5imaYWYPfy_g9xN55ppbvA7Sw87IA

Mr Parker
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Israel has right to board Gaza-bound ships: Biden



http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5imaYWYPfy_g9xN55ppbvA7Sw87IA

so if corrupt bastard Joe Biden says its okay then its okay for Israel to board their ship is what your saying then? I sure hope not cause that sure as hell doesnt make sense.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Mr Parker
so if corrupt bastard Joe Biden says its okay then its okay for Israel to board their ship is what your saying then? I sure hope not cause that sure as hell doesnt make sense.

No, if the extremist radical leftist Joe Biden says that it is ok for Israel to board these ships, then the other extremist radical leftist on this board are not following their talking points. laughing

Ms.Marvel
if its legal to do so then who the hell has the right to say its not okay?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
if its legal to do so then who the hell has the right to say its not okay?

Abortion is legal.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
if its legal to do so then who the hell has the right to say its not okay?

Yes, it's legal to stop boats trying to break a blockade but there is a serious question about the legality of the blockage itself.

Mr Parker
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No, if the extremist radical leftist Joe Biden says that it is ok for Israel to board these ships, then the other extremist radical leftist on this board are not following their talking points. laughing

that corrupt bastard saying its okay is enough for me to know it WASNT okay for them to do it.Samzed took the apologists here to school in his last long post he made.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Mr Parker
that corrupt bastard saying its okay is enough for me to know it WASNT okay for them to do it.

What are you, a Republican?

Mr Parker
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What are you, a Republican?

Dude I know your joking.I know you know that I hate Bush and Cheney.I know you havent forgotten how I have said many times here BOTH parties are corrupt and if there is any hope for the future of america, we need a third party president in there.one that doesnt ignore what the people want. People here are in denial on that.I know your messing with me.

Mindship
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Israel has right to board Gaza-bound ships: Biden



http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5imaYWYPfy_g9xN55ppbvA7Sw87IA Ahh. Joe Biden. I thought it was Joe Carson. My bad.


http://www.classictvhits.com/shows/petticoatjunction/pics/PJ19.jpg

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Mindship
Ahh. Joe Biden. I thought it was Joe Carson. My bad.


http://www.classictvhits.com/shows/petticoatjunction/pics/PJ19.jpg

I'm confused. laughing

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by Ordo
No. Infact they are "shot at close range five times, including four times in the head."

Ay! That sounds more like an execution or crime of passion to do overkill like that. SWATs and special forces are trained to shoot twice, center mass. But four to the head? The first one would have dropped him, which meant four more slugs were plugged into his head by someone standing over him, not under any fire. That just sounds suspicious.

Liberator
"It's legitimate for Israel to say, "I don't know what's on that ship. These guys are dropping eight -- 3,000 rockets on my people."


Wait what? Is he talking about the Palestinians or Israelis...?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Liberator
"It's legitimate for Israel to say, "I don't know what's on that ship. These guys are dropping eight -- 3,000 rockets on my people."


Wait what? Is he talking about the Palestinians or Israelis...?

Hamas is sending rockets into Israel. The Palestinians are in the middle.

One Free Man
I just want Israel and Palestine to fight and get it the **** over with.

Bicnarok

Ushgarak
You may be under the impression that the blockade is illegal, but that has not been established. In that other countries recognise the blockade (even though they disagree with it), it is completely legal under the law.

And even if you did not know that, that's still how it is! It so happens, btw, that all nautical access to Gaza is actually officially Israeli, so there is no question of it being someone else's coast, in the spirit you meant it.

Liberator
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Hamas is sending rockets into Israel. The Palestinians are in the middle.

Ah yes how could I have forgotten those Hamas bastards.

I was just confused, the article made no mention of the thousands of rockets Israel sends into the Gaza Strip.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Liberator
Ah yes how could I have forgotten those Hamas bastards.

I was just confused, the article made no mention of the thousands of rockets Israel sends into the Gaza Strip.

Not everyone is stupid enough to believe that propaganda.

Ordo
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Not everyone is stupid enough to believe that propaganda.

The "propaganda" that Israel is oppressing the Palestinian people, launching rockets, bombs, even full out military forces into Palestinian territory?

Sorry, I just need to clarify this statement.

Placidity
FOGG_osOoVg

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Liberator
Ah yes how could I have forgotten those Hamas bastards.

I was just confused, the article made no mention of the thousands of rockets Israel sends into the Gaza Strip.

Hamas has something in common with Hitler; They both want to exterminate the Jews. Don't confuse the right of a state to defend its people by killing its mortal enemy, with a terrorist group organization with genocide as their goal.

Ordo
Your blatant ignorance is astounding...and not worth my time.

Liberator
PLO!

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Liberator
PLO!

How do you deal with someone who will NEVER except peace? The only answer they will accept is the total destruction of the state of Israel. That means they want to kill all the Jews in Israel, and puts them in the same category as Hitler.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Don't confuse the right of a state to defend its people by killing its mortal enemy,
Oh, you mean the palestinians rights to defend against Israelis?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
with a terrorist group organization with genocide as their goal.
Like the conservative side of Israel's government?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by King Kandy
Oh, you mean the palestinians rights to defend against Israelis?


Like the conservative side of Israel's government?

If the Palestinians wished to have peace, they could of had that years ago.

The conservative side of Israel's government? When faced with extremism, extremism is the natural outcome.

How do you deal with someone who will NEVER except peace? The only way is to NEVER give in.

Liberator
no they couldn't of... the Israeli's want control over Palestine.

I don't agree with Hamas but I do see some points with the PLO (not everything mind you).

The blockade is completely inhumane.

Liberator
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Hamas has something in common with Hitler; They both want to exterminate the Jews. Don't confuse the right of a state to defend its people by killing its mortal enemy, with a terrorist group organization with genocide as their goal.

You want to talk about extermination?! What about the countless Palestinians that have been exterminated by the Israeli's simply for being Palestinian?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Liberator
no they couldn't of... the Israeli's want control over Palestine.

I don't agree with Hamas but I do see some points with the PLO (not everything mind you).

Sure, I don agree with everything Israel has done or is doing, but I think there is a legitimate reason why the Israeli's want control over Palestine. Every time Israel gives up even the smallest amount of land or control, they get attacked. The only way to keep Hamas from attacking Israel is to keep weapons out of their hands. If you let ships brake the blockade, then weapons WILL be smuggled in and Israel WILL be attacked again. There is no good option at this point in time.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Liberator
You want to talk about extermination?! What about the countless Palestinians that have been exterminated by the Israeli's simply for being Palestinian?

Again, you are confusing the right of a state to attack those who threaten and kill their citizens with terrorists.

Bicnarok

Shakyamunison

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Again, you are confusing the right of a state to attack those who threaten and kill their citizens with terrorists.

Sounds like what happened to Palestine.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Sounds like what happened to Palestine.

Then they should try to make peace, Oh wait, the Hamas charter forbids that.

Ordo
Actually, Palestinians like starving in walled slums of bombed out concrete shells. Guarded with mile long trenches, barbed wire and guard towers. Thats traditional Palestinian interior decorating.

(btw...who are the Nazis again?)

Hamas would not be in power if every Palestinian didnt feel persecuted by Isreal. Hamas builds schools and hospitals, smuggle you food and medicine, and on top of that they launch rockets at the people who killed your family because they just damn well wanted to. Thats a win-win-win-win.

A civilian Palestinian government did none of those things. Why? Israel wouldn't let them. And a bunch of guys with homemade explosives are not a giant threat to one of the most modern militaries on the planet. The bottom line is Israel is a hypochondriac state, the SINGLE party not agreeing to a globally sponsored 2-state solution. They don't care if you are a civilian, foreign or domestic or a militant, they will bomb your house, they will shoot you in the face, evict you by force, and cut off supplies to your settlement.

Israel was belligerent LONG before Hamas ever existed. Israel, a real state hopped up on the aid/military teet of the US, has the responsibility to end the conflict and they are directly refusing to do so. Both sides use shitty tactics, but I can understand the Palestinian cause and the direct oppression they endure. Hamas doesn't oppress Israel. Hamas isn't the one disagreeing to the UN-US-EU solution. Palestinians are the people living in squalor.

Shakyamunison
At the end of WWII the German's lived in bombed out cities and surrounded by death. Should we have told the allies to go back home and stop killing German people? Or was the condition they lived in their fault for allowing the Nazis power?

If the Palestinians wanted peace, they could of had peace years ago.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Should we have told the allies to go back home and stop killing German people?

Absolutely, screwing over the Germans after defeating them in WWI was the spark for WWII. Not to mention that after you win you're supposed to stop killing people, if you do that you're clearly nuts.

Ushgarak
I think he meant should we have told them to go back home BEFORE the war was over. As in, the destruction of Germany was justified in the circumstances.

Sadly, SC, the other issue with what you say is that WWII would not have happened if Europe had been MORE strict with Germany. So not a good one to raise here. Trying to keep the peace was the disaster.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Absolutely, screwing over the Germans after defeating them in WWI was the spark for WWII. Not to mention that after you win you're supposed to stop killing people, if you do that you're clearly nuts.

I don't get your point, but that's ok, I don't want to go off topic.

If you were in charge of Israel, what would you do to make peace with someone who will only settle for your destruction?

Bicnarok
maybe they should have given the Jews a bit of Germany after the war instead of sending them into a hostile desert. Mind you if that had happened and at the rate Israel steal land, the whole of Europe would be Israel by now.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Bicnarok
Mind you if that had happened and at the rate Israel steal land, the whole of Europe would be Israel by now.

I want you to think about that statement for a minute and figure out why it doesn't make any mathematical sense.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don't get your point, but that's ok, I don't want to go off topic.

If you were in charge of Israel, what would you do to make peace with someone who will only settle for your destruction?
That's a tricky question; if you were Palestine, how could you make piece with someone who has done not one act to help you, and everything to hurt you?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by King Kandy
That's a tricky question; if you were Palestine, how could you make piece with someone who has done not one act to help you, and everything to hurt you?

I would first get rid of Hamas, then I would declare that Israel has a right to exist. Then I would call on Israel to declare that Palestine has the right to exist. The fact that I declared it first, would force Israel to do the same. I would then Demand land, and promise to no longer attack Israel. I would back this up with Laws that made attacking Israel from Palestine punishable by death. I would also release all hostages.

How's that?

Liberator
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I would first get rid of Hamas, then I would declare that Israel has a right to exist. Then I would call on Israel to declare that Palestine has the right to exist. The fact that I declared it first, would force Israel to do the same. I would then Demand land, and promise to no longer attack Israel. I would back this up with Laws that made attacking Israel from Palestine punishable by death. I would also release all hostages.

How's that?


'cept it would fail. Israel is unfliching in its resolve, and its not like they haven't heard similar things in the past. I bet if you did some research you'd find that the Palestinians called for peace and the Israeli's just kept on conquerin'.

You keep making reference to Hamas but you seem to forget that the majority of Palestinians support the PLO.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then I would call on Israel to declare that Palestine has the right to exist. The fact that I declared it first, would force Israel to do the same.
Haha! Good luck!

The whole reason Hamas rode to power was because of the continuous infringement on Palestinian land.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by King Kandy
Haha! Good luck!

The whole reason Hamas rode to power was because of the continuous infringement on Palestinian land.

We would have to assume that I am immortal and have super powers.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Liberator
'cept it would fail. Israel is unfliching in its resolve, and its not like they haven't heard similar things in the past. I bet if you did some research you'd find that the Palestinians called for peace and the Israeli's just kept on conquerin'.

You keep making reference to Hamas but you seem to forget that the majority of Palestinians support the PLO.

What I said was close to what the UN proposed in the 70's, and it was the Palestinians who broke the accords.

King Kandy
What are you talking about, ALL UN land accords have been consistently broken by israeli settlement growths.

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