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Who wins in this epic space battle.

Tarkin - 10 Star Destroyers + His own personal Star Destroyer, 4 Dreadnoughts + all the Tie Fighters/Bombers/Interceptors that can be carried on those ships (Star Destroyer and Dreadnoughts) plus Two wings of Tie Defenders and 1 Wing of Assault Gunboats

Wing = 12 Fighters

Thrawn - 10 Star Destroyers + The Chimeara, 4 Imperial Dreadnoughts + all the Tie Fighters/Bombers/Interceptors that can be carried on those ships. Plus 1 Wing of Tie Phantoms and 1 Wing of Tie Avengers.

Wing = 12 Fighters

Location - Kessel Space and everything in there including The Maw

NO ADMIRAL DAALA ( I know you will try the use the Maw Installation as backup for Tarkin )

Enjoy.

Thrawn becuase Tarkin's a fawkin ijiot

Thrawn laughs and wtf pwns Tarkin.

Yeah Tarkin wasn't really a tactical mastermind. He mainly dealt with the politics in the military.

You'd need way more uneven forces than that to make it remotely near a fair fight.

Thrawn, possibly without casualties. (don't ask me HOW, i'm not the genius, he was.)

TJ
Thrawn, possibly without casualties. (don't ask me HOW, i'm not the genius, he was.)

Thrawn's considerable superiority over Tarkin as a military tactician notwithstanding, there are always casualties with Tarkin. Brutal, senseless killing is sort of his niche.

Exactly. Thrawn wins again.

I don't think this fight would be all that one sided actually. Thrawn's strategies are amazing, but tactics can only do so much to influence an individual battle unless there is some greater campaign. If they're just going at it, there's only so much Thrawn can do.

What? No. Thrawn was unbeatable, despite being repeatedly outnumbered until killed by his own Noghri. He hadn't been beaten. The man was MONEY. What do you mean strategy can't effect that much? It is the ONLY thing that effects everything else.

You totally missed what I pointed out in my post. Skimming much?

Thrawn was a master of strategy, which is more of the big picture stuff. That's the awesome stuff. Tactics, as in what happens in an individual engagement such as this one, can only do so much. Not saying Thrawns side wouldn't win, but there definitely be plenty of causalities on his side.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I don't think this fight would be all that one sided actually. Thrawn's strategies are amazing, but tactics can only do so much to influence an individual battle unless there is some greater campaign. If they're just going at it, there's only so much Thrawn can do.

Most of what he pulled was reading exactly how a battle would go.



"Sir, should we call in reinforcements?"

"No."

"Why not?"

"Because I don't want any of them to escape."
-Paraphrased from one of his earlier battles in his trilogy. He knew how the enemy would react if two more SDs jumped in, and he knew that with his smaller force, in what looked like a much more fair fight, he could eliminate them completely. And he did. He knows where to place his ships, when to launch attacks, what priority targets should get, and how to force the enemy into disadvantageous positions and confuse them.

If anything I'd say he's a tactical genius first and a strategic second.


Now it's almost impossible to win without casualties, I don't see that happening. I do however see him still winning with a force 2/3rds the size of this one.

Glentract: His victory in outbound flight where he destroyed an entire unknown enemy War fleet with a force numbering like 3 small vessels, on the fly makes me disagree with you. I think he has both areas of tactics handled.

If he's given time to come up with some sort of plan, that's one thing, but if it's like bam, Tarkin and Thrawn, fight, then there's only so much he can do.

well of course, yeah, if they are all already engaged at the outset. Then there would be casualties.

Commander's in star wars do still seem to have enough control over their capital ships to change an engagement in mid-battle though. If not, battle-meditation wouldn't even be useful.

One of the big things about battle meditation is that it makes the individual troops fight better.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
One of the big things about battle meditation is that it makes the individual troops fight better. Or does the exact opposite for the enemies

To all our viewers, it appears that several of our senior nerds only recently learned what Battle Meditation is.

?

Originally posted by truejedi
? I was just about to explain, but... it'll click eventually.

You didn't know what it was? Its been around since I think Joruus.

And as early as KOTOR in the sw timeline.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
One of the big things about battle meditation is that it makes the individual troops fight better.
That's true. I was referring to the aspect where the user has control over the commander's of the different ships, so a better opportunity to give orders, and control the fleet.

Well I tried to make Tarkin have an advantage because of Thrawn's strategic abilities.

I Don't see Thrawn not having casualties though. I don't see him losing many ships at all. but one has to go down some time or another.

What is Tarkin's advantage?

DG
What is Tarkin's advantage?

Intellectually, none. But the reason I'd bet on Thrawn taking casualties is solely out of Tarkin's unmatched brutality.

I'm agreeing there. The TS said he tried to make Tarkin have an advantage, but I didn't see any and was asking what it is. I definitely think there will be plenty of casualties.

DS
I definitely think there will be plenty of casualties.

ya

Unless there's a one-hit-KO button (like ze death star!!1!), Thrawn's going to have his hands full: Tarkin will be screwed, true, but he'll throw everything he has and the veritable fvcking kitchen sink at the relatively mild Thrawn.

I gave Tarkin all the Capital Ship busting fighters, Tie Defenders and Assault Gunboats.

Thrawn just has the Tie Avengers and Tie Phantoms (Non-Capital Ship assaulting fighters) but excellent for Intercepting and Defense.

Tarkin = Offense

Thrawn = Defense

Thrawn is just as ruthless as Tarkin, he just doesn't see the need to forecast it as much.

I'm pretty sure offense is Tarkin's only mode anyways.

Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
I gave Tarkin all the Capital Ship busting fighters, Tie Defenders and Assault Gunboats.

Thrawn just has the Tie Avengers and Tie Phantoms (Non-Capital Ship assaulting fighters) but excellent for Intercepting and Defense.

Tarkin = Offense

Thrawn = Defense

Thrawn pwns him. he's a much better strategist and tactician than Tarkin. Thrawn is arguably the most skilled strategist/tactician in the SW mythos.

TJ
Thrawn is just as ruthless as Tarkin, he just doesn't see the need to forecast it as much.

haermm

Thrawn's not even in Tarkin's league when it comes to ruthlessness. Tarkin blew up a fvcking planet, Thrawn's never demonstrated the same capacity for brutality, and I'm fully aware of Thrawn's manipulation of the poor Noghri.

Well, Tarkin's very ruthlessness was a mistake. By destroying Alderaan, he strengthened the Rebel Alliance. Thrawn would have made the same decision IF it helped in his overall strategies. We just haven't seen him in the same situation, or rather, a different situation where it would be a good choice.

Ah....the Noghri. That was one of the most fun levels of JK3. At least for me.

But, back on topic, while Tarkin apparently has more offensive power (which complements his sheer brutality and ruthlessness) Thrawn's got a solid defense and that might just be all he needs.

Thrawn's Fleet, 8/10. At least.

Originally posted by DarthDaniel1001
Ah....the Noghri. That was one of the most fun levels of JK3. At least for me.

But, back on topic, while Tarkin apparently has more offensive power (which complements his sheer brutality and ruthlessness) Thrawn's got a solid defense and that might just be all he needs.

Thrawn's Fleet, 8/10. At least.

Thrawn's fleet 10/10, unless if Thrawn has some brain problem 2/10 times.

TJ
Well, Tarkin's very ruthlessness was a mistake.

k



Thrawn's ruthless, don't get me wrong, but that ruthlessness is never his first option. Consider that he makes an offer to Jorus C'baoth in Outbound Flight for the Jedi to simply turn around and leave; he only opts to kill them after he's nearly been strangled to death.

Tarkin, on the other hand, would probably have just went LAWL and blew C'baoth to bits.

You're dealing with a civilized tactician who will resort to ruthless lengths if necessary against a barely restrained psychopath and utterly brutal military strategist.

Originally posted by Gideon
k



Thrawn's ruthless, don't get me wrong, but that ruthlessness is never his first option. Consider that he makes an offer to Jorus C'baoth in Outbound Flight for the Jedi to simply turn around and leave; he only opts to kill them after he's nearly been strangled to death.

Tarkin, on the other hand, would probably have just went LAWL and blew C'baoth to bits.

You're dealing with a civilized tactician who will resort to ruthless lengths if necessary against a barely restrained psychopath and utterly brutal military strategist.

You don't like Tarkin much do you? I'm personally not a diehard fan either.

Originally posted by Gideon
k



Thrawn's ruthless, don't get me wrong, but that ruthlessness is never his first option. Consider that he makes an offer to Jorus C'baoth in Outbound Flight for the Jedi to simply turn around and leave; he only opts to kill them after he's nearly been strangled to death.

Tarkin, on the other hand, would probably have just went LAWL and blew C'baoth to bits.

You're dealing with a civilized tactician who will resort to ruthless lengths if necessary against a barely restrained psychopath and utterly brutal military strategist.

I always assumed he made that decision because he didn't want Chiss space invaded by the Republic, but maybe that was just me.

DD1001
You don't like Tarkin much do you? I'm personally not a diehard fan either.

No, actually, Tarkin's one of my very favorite villains. For someone who is easily one of the most brutal characters in the mythos, it's not rooted out of sadism. Consider his iconic moment in A New Hope, he was smug and cruel, but not necessarily sadistic -- he genuinely thought that destroying Alderaan would deliver a fine point to the rebellion.

He really didn't do it for lulz.

Originally posted by Gideon
No, actually, Tarkin's one of my very favorite villains. For someone who is easily one of the most brutal characters in the mythos, it's not rooted out of sadism. Consider his iconic moment in A New Hope, he was smug and cruel, but not necessarily sadistic -- he genuinely thought that destroying Alderaan would deliver a fine point to the rebellion.

He really didn't do it for lulz.

Yeah, harsh viewpoint. He also committed genocide against the Omwuati and afterwards, his name was used in their language for the words "Butcher" and "Demon". (Beauty of the New Encyclopedia to Characters)

Originally posted by DarthDaniel1001
You don't like Tarkin much do you? I'm personally not a diehard fan either.

Well, Tarkin was certainly incompetent and cruel, although one could argue that those are the defining qualities of a villian, or at least the latter.

Originally posted by Gideon
Intellectually, none. But the reason I'd bet on Thrawn taking casualties is solely out of Tarkin's unmatched brutality.

Something Thrawn'll use against him, it can easily be used to lure him into traps.

Thrawn'll do what's tactically advantageous, Tarkin'll try and do what'll make the most shock, which doesn't help in a fleet-on-fleet battle.


Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
I gave Tarkin all the Capital Ship busting fighters, Tie Defenders and Assault Gunboats.

Thrawn just has the Tie Avengers and Tie Phantoms (Non-Capital Ship assaulting fighters) but excellent for Intercepting and Defense.

Tarkin = Offense

Thrawn = Defense

That just means Tarkin is more vulnerable to losing his fighter screen and acting unsupported, and leaving his ships open for the basic TIE Bombers once the skies are clear for Thrawn's fighters.


Arguably that is a disadvantage for Tarkin, it's an exploitable mismatch. It lends to his style in a way that'll likely leave him overextended if he tries going hard-offense with them.

Even with equal commanders, the advantage on the fighter-on-fighter game is pretty useful.

Good point Q99. but the thing is Tie Defenders..are also excellent Fighter vs Fighter craft. (If you want to debate that, play the game Tie Fighter from Lucasarts. Get the Windows 95/98 Version not DOS)

They are even better than the Tie Avengers and to further my point they double as Bombers and Capital Ship Busters. So as you see, I didn't give Thrawn ALL the Fighter vs Fighter capability.

Still, we've got a small imbalance between the two, not a real edge, and Thrawn's the one who's going to seize on imbalances more.


Thrawn should take this pretty easy, and if the fleets were flopped, just as easily.

Q99, I really liked that last post.


That is a really clever observation.

Thrawn.

Because....He's Thrawn?

Also, I would like some proof that this would be anything more than Thrawn's equivalent of a morning crossword puzzle as a morning wake-up.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm pretty sure offense is Tarkin's only mode anyways.



true.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Thrawn's fleet 10/10, unless if Thrawn has some brain problem 2/10 times.
Well, it's not so much that as atleast 2 out of 10 times, Tarkin will just bum rush him and ram him while fring with wild abandon. It's tarkins mental problems, not thrawns.

see these guys...
Originally posted by Gideon
haermm

Thrawn's not even in Tarkin's league when it comes to ruthlessness. Tarkin blew up a fvcking planet, Thrawn's never demonstrated the same capacity for brutality, and I'm fully aware of Thrawn's manipulation of the poor Noghri.


Originally posted by truejedi
Well, Tarkin's very ruthlessness was a mistake. By destroying Alderaan, he strengthened the Rebel Alliance. Thrawn would have made the same decision IF it helped in his overall strategies. We just haven't seen him in the same situation, or rather, a different situation where it would be a good choice.


Originally posted by DarthDaniel1001
Ah....the Noghri. That was one of the most fun levels of JK3. At least for me.

But, back on topic, while Tarkin apparently has more offensive power (which complements his sheer brutality and ruthlessness) Thrawn's got a solid defense and that might just be all he needs.

Thrawn's Fleet, 8/10. At least. So, yeah I agree with this.



EDIT: Sorry for the triple-post, thought someelse had posted too...