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Dart

http://i6.tinypic.com/16lxulg.jpg

Haschel

http://www.pobladores.com/data/pobladores.com/sl/ay/slayersephiroth/channels/woff/images/2985560haschel.jpg

VERSUS

Cloud

http://www.vgblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/20/Cloud.jpg

Loz

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx217/ChocoboStamps/Matchmaker/FFVII_Loz.png

That's right, Loz and Cloud make a truce (For now) to fight Dart and Haschel.

Only Dart can use his Dragoon Spirit to go into Dragoon form (No Divine form).
Haschel fights just in his regular form.

Cloud fights with Blizzard and Thunder Materia (The ones he canonically can use in the original game) Loz fights normally, as seen in the movie.

Which team wins?

Loz doesn't originate in a VG as far as I know, but I say Dragoon.

Dart and Haschel have this.

Dart's durability is the bomb.

Flight maneuverability makes Sephiroth look sluggish. Dart Solos.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Loz doesn't originate in a VG as far as I know, but I say Dragoon.

You're right. Sorry for that, I completely forgot.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You're right. Sorry for that, I completely forgot.

No worries.

We need more LoD threads.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
We need more LoD threads.

I made one, but it was a fart.
They are scared, I tell ya!

Which one?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f85/t531728.html

The Dissidia Team you made is corn. Needs more Bartz and Kefka.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Loz doesn't originate in a VG as far as I know, but I say Dragoon. Advent Children characters are allowed actually.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Advent Children characters are allowed actually.

I wasn't aware. Must've been a discussion that wasn't here for.

Is in the rules.

Oh? What number?

Not gonna check.

Even If I bet you it isn't there?

Your views are worthless to me.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Your views are worthless to me.

Likewise, but it's still fun to make you dance for me.

I dance for no one, monkey.

You just did.

How so?

You don't get to ask me questions.

You consider yourself some sort of equal or superior to me. How charmingly naive.

Originally posted by NemeBro
You consider yourself some sort of equal or superior to me. How charmingly naive.

The fact that you feel the need to increase your own imaginative position by bringing down that which is above you is proof of the superiority I possess.

So... Guys, it is allowed or not?

Nemebro says that it's in the rules. Go check it out, and bring back the results, por favor.

Found nothing on it.

Who cares until its shut down, just debate to heart's content.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Found nothing on it.

Who cares until its shut down, just debate to heart's content.
Sounds good to me.

I say Dart could solo, but Haschel's pretty baller for an old guy.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Sounds good to me.

I say Dart could solo, but Haschel's pretty baller for an old guy.

Um, can you make an argument...? Please, at least elaborate. I could say Cloud solo too and you'll be asking the same...

What makes you think Dart can beat Cloud?

Let's start with the fact that Dart can fly. Dragoons can fly miles in a couple seconds, and one was even shown flying to the moon. Their manueverability is also top-notch.

Dart's base form durability is also awesome. Cloud's not so much.

He can keep up with Cloud in speed as well . Lloyd is faster than Cloud, Dart was able to keep up with him in their last fight.

You mean the fight in which all of the Dragoons ganged up on Lloyd?

Yeah...

Actually before and after the fight, it shows Dart charging Lloyd alone, with no one else from the party in the room.

Fxknkq7FqqY

00:14-till start of the battle. This is an important detail because in all other boss engagements the whole party is shown before (and after) a fight.

Obviously they made it there too eventually at least, but it was still depicted as a duel as seen even at the end fight cutscene at 6:48 where Dart once again charges Lloyd alone with no other party member visible in the room. So they didn't necessarily help at all.

And another important thing is Lloyd is even more nimble here than usual as he was using his hover flight abilities. Dart had gotten a lot better, just as Lloyd canonically said he would after their first fight at the tournament.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Actually before and after the fight, it shows Dart charging Lloyd alone, with no one else from the party in the room.

00:14-till start of the battle. This is an important detail because in all other boss engagements the whole party is shown before (and after) a fight.

Obviously they made it there too eventually at least, but it was still depicted as a duel as seen even at the end fight cutscene at 6:48 where Dart once again charges Lloyd alone with no other party member visible in the room. So they didn't necessarily help at all.

And another important thing is Lloyd is even more nimble here than usual as he was using his hover flight abilities. Dart had gotten a lot better, just as Lloyd canonically said he would after their first fight at the tournament.

Usually and almost always is Dart the one who does the "final blow" on the bosses. Just to make him earn all the glory or something stupid like that, look at Cloud beating Bahamut-Sin. The fact is, Lloyd is fought by all the team just as almost all the bosses. Dart getting better is also obvious, we can say the same about the rest of the characters, they're all getting stronger throughout the game. This isn't enough to beat Cloud, in my opinion. Cloud is a genetically enhanced super-soldier, Dart seems human, unless he's using Dragoon form to enchance his abilities.

The fact that he can fly means nothing.

Did you watch the video?

Again Dart was shown charging alone with no one else present, both in the cutscene before and AFTER the fight. All other boss fights (other than the tournament for Dart and a few other individual boss fights) shows the party engaging.

Dart is no more a mere human than Cloud. He has superhuman feats in base form all throughout the game.

Flight means A LOT. Especially when its accompanied by the flight speed and dragonfly like maneuverability of Dragoon form. Cloud couldn't jump any higher than 50 or so feet without needing a boost from each of his friends while fighting Bahamut. He would have hell trying to hit dragoon form Dart.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Did you watch the video?

Again Dart was shown charging alone with no one else present, both in the cutscene before and AFTER the fight. All other boss fights (other than the tournament for Dart and a few other individual boss fights) shows the party engaging.

Dart is no more a mere human than Cloud. He has superhuman feats in base form all throughout the game.

Flight means A LOT. Especially when its accompanied by the flight speed and dragonfly like maneuverability of Dragoon form. Cloud couldn't jump any higher than 50 or so feet without needing a boost from each of his friends while fighting Bahamut. He would have hell trying to hit dragoon form Dart.

And why Lloyd says "Here they are" when Dart shows up? You know, the party goes "inside" Dart. Otherwise, you'll be controlling more than five characters at once during the scenarios of the game. That pretty much happens in many RPGs, I could name you some. And as far as I can see, there's isn't enough space to animate 7 characters in that place, and as is not even important to do so either because we all know they are there. You're not assuming Dart fought Lloyd by himself due of that, right? Because that would be completely ridiculous. He obviously fought and defeated Lloyd with the help of ALL of his team AND Dragoon forms.

Dart is human. Cloud is a genetically enhanced super-human. Dart may be super-human by accessing to his Dragoon form, which allows him to use Magic and special stuff.

That's like saying that Cloud wouldn't have touched Sephiroth because he could fly. That's like saying that none of Cloud's friends could have touched Bahamut-Sin because he was flying. That's like saying that tons of characters wouldn't be able to fight enemies whose can fly. That's like saying that because someone can fly and there is a guy who lacks that ability, is unable to win a fight. That sounds pretty much like a No-Limit Fallacy to me.

-Except 'They're here' does not have to literally mean they are all in that room at that exact moment. All that Lloyd does know is that the group has been following him.

-'Goes inside' Dart, about time you mentioned it so I could easily refute it already. It's a gameplay element for purposes outside of cutscenes where the engine is not able to show several 3d sprites running around a field at the player's command at once. In all other boss cutscenes besides the exceptions mentioned, there is always more than just Dart shown on the field before engagement, even if they don't show everyone, there is always more than just Dart present. Here its just Dart.

-'Not enough room'? Hogwash assumption. They can easily fit 6 more people in that scene around and behind Dart. They do so in other more cramped scenes than that.

- 'He obviously fought and defeated Lloyd with the help of ALL of his team AND Dragoon forms.' Who's assuming again? I'm the only one going by cutscenes. There is no indication that the whole group fought. At all. Dart is the only one shown engaging Lloyd one on one in two different scenes in that area, both of those scenes show only him in the room. Dart had Lloyd on the defensive in the end, by himself.

What was my ultimate point here? That Dart can react to Lloyd's speed, and thus Cloud's speed won't be surprising. That's all, he doesn't even have to have beaten Lloyd one on one for that to be true. Hell, Haschel by himself reacts to and defeats his daughter Claire who was possessed by the War God, and her movements were about fast as Lloyd's.

In Disc 4, Dart also reacts to a surprise attack/slash from Zieg who was possessed by Melbu Frahma. Melbu Frahma while still possessing Zieg in Disc 3, casually owns Lloyd with a magic attack before Lloyd could even react, Lloyd was already on the defensive and ready to attack when that happened as well.

Melbu Frahma is a superior wingly to Lloyd. And he demonstrated Wingly abilities (such as flight) even while possessing a human form like Zieg's. (Zieg's body didn't even have to be in dragoon form to fly while Melbu was in control)

-Dart is a human yeah, we've already established that. A human with super-human feats all throughout the game even outside of dragoon form. It's a stupid point that is extinguished as soon as one's memory isn't limited enough to recall that fact.

Your explanation of Cloud's abilities are unwarranted because it has nothing to do with Dart. In Dart's verse, one can be capable of superhuman feats simply by the strength of training to attain such a level, which is demonstrated over and over. Hell, it wasn't even necessary for me to say that, because Cid Highwind isn't genetically modified either. Yet he's similarly superhuman in Advent Children. Sorry, you never had a point to stand on here.

--Lol. Did Cloud EVER ONCE even touch Sephiroth during the times he was zipping through the air? Don't be a fool with semantics. Simply saying 'flying' has nothing to do with anything here. You are attempting to juxtapose Bahamut Sin's relatively ponderous speed and huge size and him getting into range for the characters to attack, with a human sized character in a dragoon who has far greater maneuverability(able to make elaborate turns during flight with ease) and far greater speed(able to cover the span of a couple of miles in a few seconds)? Lol. Simply because they both have 'flight' makes it nowhere near the same thing despite your failed attempt at trying to frame them as such.

It's all about context. And don't be such a noob with forum verbage either, you aren't impressing anyone with your incorrect usage. There is no such demonstration of 'no limits fallacy' here.

Speed Blitzing a guy who can't fly and can only jump 50 or so feet is not a 'no limits fallacy' as it is LOWER than the limits demonstrated by the guy who will be doing the speed blitzing(Dart in dragoon form that is).

Originally posted by CosmicComet
-Except 'They're here' does not have to literally mean they are all in that room at that exact moment. All that Lloyd does know is that the group has been following him.

-'Goes inside' Dart, about time you mentioned it so I could easily refute it already. It's a gameplay element for purposes outside of cutscenes where the engine is not able to show several 3d sprites running around a field at the player's command at once. In all other boss cutscenes besides the exceptions mentioned, there is always more than just Dart shown on the field before engagement, even if they don't show everyone, there is always more than just Dart present. Here its just Dart.

-'Not enough room'? Hogwash assumption. They can easily fit 6 more people in that scene around and behind Dart. They do so in other more cramped scenes than that.

- 'He obviously fought and defeated Lloyd with the help of ALL of his team AND Dragoon forms.' Who's assuming again? I'm the only one going by cutscenes. There is no indication that the whole group fought. At all. Dart is the only one shown engaging Lloyd one on one in two different scenes in that area, both of those scenes show only him in the room. Dart had Lloyd on the defensive in the end, by himself.

I can accept that. But why the team leaves Dart alone, then?

I know, many RPG games does that all the time.
Although yeah, I do believe there's not enough space to animate seven more people, however when the battle scene is set on, the scenario is expanded.

Ok, tell me why you fight Lloyd with a party, then? If Dart is alone, then it doesn't make sense. They could have made Dart alone without a team in that fight, just as they did earlier in the tournament. Also, I don't see why Dart wouldn't use his powers as a Dragoon to fight Lloyd. That woman Theresa is first seen inside and then she's suddenly outside, but we never see her leaving, we have to assume she left before the fight?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
What was my ultimate point here? That Dart can react to Lloyd's speed, and thus Cloud's speed won't be surprising. That's all, he doesn't even have to have beaten Lloyd one on one for that to be true. Hell, Haschel by himself reacts to and defeats his daughter Claire who was possessed by the War God, and her movements were about fast as Lloyd's.

In Disc 4, Dart also reacts to a surprise attack/slash from Zieg who was possessed by Melbu Frahma. Melbu Frahma while still possessing Zieg in Disc 3, casually owns Lloyd with a magic attack before Lloyd could even react, Lloyd was already on the defensive and ready to attack when that happened as well.

Melbu Frahma is a superior wingly to Lloyd. And he demonstrated Wingly abilities (such as flight) even while possessing a human form like Zieg's. (Zieg's body didn't even have to be in dragoon form to fly while Melbu was in control)

Dart gets stronger, you know? And how fast Lloyd is? He moves at super-sonic speed? The speed of sound? Light-speed? Why Cloud's speed won't be surprising? As far as I know he's damn fast. Also, Dart dodging a simple slash doesn't seem so amazing to me, it's not like he dodged a bullet or anything, it was a sword slash.

Are you using A>B>C logic? Dart defeated his father with all of his team, the same goes to Melbu Frahma, so that shows literally nothing.

Cool, but Dart can't do anything of that, can he?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
-Dart is a human yeah, we've already established that. A human with super-human feats all throughout the game even outside of dragoon form. It's a stupid point that is extinguished as soon as one's memory isn't limited enough to recall that fact.

Your explanation of Cloud's abilities are unwarranted because it has nothing to do with Dart. In Dart's verse, one can be capable of superhuman feats simply by the strength of training to attain such a level, which is demonstrated over and over. Hell, it wasn't even necessary for me to say that, because Cid Highwind isn't genetically modified either. Yet he's similarly superhuman in Advent Children. Sorry, you never had a point to stand on here.

Dart is super-human when you compare him to us. In that universe is a common feat to perform those things, also in Final Fantasy. A very well trained warrior (as you mention) is capable of doing exactly the same. Dragoons however, are considered beyond human levels. Look at Tifa. Tifa is not super-human, yet there you have her performing cool stuff and she was trained just by an old guy. However, she was owned by Loz who was literally playing with her, as he IS super-human. But, Cloud own Loz. Cloud is a genetically enhanced super-soldier, Cid Highwind is not, he's just some old airship-fan who is good with a Spear.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
--Lol. Did Cloud EVER ONCE even touch Sephiroth during the times he was zipping through the air? Don't be a fool with semantics. Simply saying 'flying' has nothing to do with anything here. You are attempting to juxtapose Bahamut Sin's relatively ponderous speed and huge size and him getting into range for the characters to attack, with a human sized character in a dragoon who has far greater maneuverability(able to make elaborate turns during flight with ease) and far greater speed(able to cover the span of a couple of miles in a few seconds)? Lol. Simply because they both have 'flight' makes it nowhere near the same thing despite your failed attempt at trying to frame them as such.

It's all about context. And don't be such a noob with forum verbage either, you aren't impressing anyone with your incorrect usage. There is no such demonstration of 'no limits fallacy' here.

Speed Blitzing a guy who can't fly and can only jump 50 or so feet is not a 'no limits fallacy' as it is LOWER than the limits demonstrated by the guy who will be doing the speed blitzing(Dart in dragoon form that is).

Cloud NEVER touched Sephiroth, but guess what, it wasn't due that Sephiroth was able to fly, it was because Cloud is not even near Sephiroth's capabilities as a warrior. And you're not getting the point. Being able to fly makes you untouchable in battle? I didn't know that.

Let's say there are two random guys, one of them have the ability to fly and the other doesn't. You would reach the conclusion that because one of them lacks that ability, he would automatically lose the battle for being unable to touch his opponent in the air because he can't fly, ignoring his other possible winning factors? Being unable to touch Dart is what you're implying here, basically. Even ignoring the fact that Dart also must get close to Cloud to be able to hit him, otherwise he can't win. Maybe I have exaggerated in using "No-Limit Fallacy" to label your argument, but it is pretty much faulty logic.

Sure, Dragoons are fast and agile when they flies. But the simply fact in being able to fly doesn't makes you unpunished in a battle, neither invincible.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I can accept that. But why the team leaves Dart alone, then?

I know, many RPG games does that all the time.
Although yeah, I do believe there's not enough space to animate seven more people, however when the battle scene is set on, the scenario is expanded.

Ok, tell me why you fight Lloyd with a party, then? If Dart is alone, then it doesn't make sense. They could have made Dart alone without a team in that fight, just as they did earlier in the tournament. Also, I don't see why Dart wouldn't use his powers as a Dragoon to fight Lloyd. That woman Theresa is first seen inside and then she's suddenly outside, but we never see her leaving, we have to assume she left before the fight?

There is plenty of space to have 7 people. Whether they are animated or not, does not matter. Who says they would have to? Keeping a static pose would be sufficient for the purpose at hand.

Why do you fight with a party you ask? What does it matter? The fight itself is a gameplay mechanic. The story was set up so that in that point the party is still following Dart and as such they are allowed to participate. It does not change the fact that canonically Dart is the only one shown fighting Lloyd.

This situation is not unique actually. Remember Emperor Doel? You have a party there, yet it is Dart alone who is credited with beating Doel. Kongol specifically refers to Dart in that regard when he sees the party again. Kongol says the world needs a strong leader and thus he will follow Dart saying specifically "You defeat Emperor Doel. Strong Strong Power. Stronger than Emperor Doel. Kongol wants to see where the power goes." So there you have it, Dart is above Doel, but a party was there for that fight anyway. This does not take long after the Doel fight anyway by the way. This is early disc 2 when they had not yet fought any new powerful foes, and Doel was the end fight of disc 1.

Could Dart have used his Dragoon form against Lloyd? Possibly. We don't see it though and we regularly see him finish fights without it as well. There was the danger of the Dragon Buster as well.




Lloyd is saiyan saga DBZ level fast. His casual speeds leave multiple after images, is able to casually dodge multiple tentacle whips from a god form Melbu Frahma at such a speed that he goes completely invisible several times, is able to move in front of a magic fireblast that was a foot away from killing a human woman all the while he was absolutely nowhere near the scene, is able to hit people without looking like he's moved at all. All casual speed.

Dart dodged a surprise sword slash from wingly such as Melbu, not only did he dodge he jumped back about 15 feet during this dodge. This is a big feat because of the superhuman abilities of winglies, especially a top tier wingly like Melbu. Lloyd himself casually stabbed Lavitz when he charged full speed at him in dragoon form. When you consider that Dragoons fly at very high super sonic speeds (they easily outrun volatile explosions that themselves would be up to 23 times faster than sound), then you get an idea for Lloyd's physical capabilities speed wise--Let alone an even superior Wingly like Melbu.

It's not A>B>C. It's simply an example of Dart reacting to a being already superior to the one who's reaction to is being questioned here. Melbu and Lloyd are both Winglies, all of which as a species are superhuman, with Melbu being superior.

One more thing, after Lloyd is defeated and he travels with you to Vellweb, he acts submissive toward Dart during the trip. Very telling.




Superhuman compared to us? Who do you think we are comparing either of them to in the first place to come to the term 'super-human'? That's right, us, actual people, who are a known quantity.

...WTF....EVERY human in the FF7 Party is superhuman. The Turks as well were superhuman. Tifa gave Loz a good fight before he finally turned it up, and Cloud never onced 'owned' Loz either. Even during the times when Cloud was facing Loz alone, Loz was giving Cloud all he could handle and speed blitzed him a couple of times as well.

Cid is superhuman as well. He demonstrated immense strength and leaping ability in AC. You cannot stupidly ignore the actual superhuman feats in that movie and designate someone as superhuman by their origin story alone when people without said origin story have superhuman feats as well.




Cloud touched Sephiroth all right, but he never demonstrated the ability to touch an actively air blitzing Sephiroth. Nor could he touch that air slug Bahamut Sin once it started climbing higher, outside of his friends giving him a boost periodically. The examples are right there for you to see.

Your example is pointless as Cloud DOES NOT have any any winnable factors left once Dart goes into Dragoon form. Hell Dart already has superior durability even outside of Dragoon form. Cloud won't have a choice but to be flight blitzed if Dart wants to do it. Dragoons are too fast. Also who says Dart HAS to be close? He has magic too you know. He can also summon the Red Eyed Dragon from which he derives power as well, and then Cloud would be blitzed on two sides.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Superhuman compared to us? Who do you think we are comparing either of them to in the first place to come to the term 'super-human'? That's right, us, actual people, who are a known quantity.

...WTF....EVERY human in the FF7 Party is superhuman. The Turks as well were superhuman. Tifa gave Loz a good fight before he finally turned it up, and Cloud never onced 'owned' Loz either. Even during the times when Cloud was facing Loz alone, Loz was giving Cloud all he could handle and speed blitzed him a couple of times as well.

Cid is superhuman as well. He demonstrated immense strength and leaping ability in AC. You cannot stupidly ignore the actual superhuman feats in that movie and designate someone as superhuman by their origin story alone when people without said origin story have superhuman feats as well.

That's not quite right. If every person in a universe can perform those feats, then they aren't super human. They are just human.

Tifa got to where she was simply by training with some old guy. She has no abilities that cannot be obtained by anyone else willing to devote their time to learning them. The same is true for the other members of the team.

So by the FF7 standards, they are just human. But Cloud is a super human by the FF7 standards.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Lloyd is saiyan saga DBZ level fast. No.

Master Roshi and kid Krillin have done Lloyd's feats.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Actually. That right there is my point. In fiction, the characters can do super human stuff, without being super human. They are super human to US, but in fiction, they are just normal people who have trained hard enough to accomplish those things.

So the FF7 party, and the Turks, aren't super human. They don't need to be in order to do those things.

Cloud, on the other hand, IS canonly super human. And I mean super human in FF7 terms. That was the point. I know what point you are making.

But your point is absolutely irrelevant to the debate or anything, what is the point of your point?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
There is plenty of space to have 7 people. Whether they are animated or not, does not matter. Who says they would have to? Keeping a static pose would be sufficient for the purpose at hand.

Why do you fight with a party you ask? What does it matter? The fight itself is a gameplay mechanic. The story was set up so that in that point the party is still following Dart and as such they are allowed to participate. It does not change the fact that canonically Dart is the only one shown fighting Lloyd.

This situation is not unique actually. Remember Emperor Doel? You have a party there, yet it is Dart alone who is credited with beating Doel. Kongol specifically refers to Dart in that regard when he sees the party again. Kongol says the world needs a strong leader and thus he will follow Dart saying specifically "You defeat Emperor Doel. Strong Strong Power. Stronger than Emperor Doel. Kongol wants to see where the power goes."

Could Dart have used his Dragoon form against Lloyd? Possibly. We don't see it though and we regularly see him finish fights without it as well. There was the danger of the Dragon Buster as well.

Incorrect.

They do not necessarily have to be animated to let us know they are with Dart, my point the whole time. A game mechanic has nothing to do with anything. If Dart is supposedly alone, then you must fight Lloyd canonically alone, thus control Dart canonically alone in the fight. Then there must be a reason for the party to leave him alone to handle everything. Guess what, none of them had a reason to leave Dart alone, there's not indication of such thing either. Never mind they are canonically there to rescue Queen Theresa and to bring the Moon Objects. When they arrives, Dart says "Lloyd! Finally, we cornered him!", the party does a "Hell yeah" gesture and there's an indication that all of them goes with Dart and NEVER leaves him. They were traveling all the way together, if they leaves Dart alone, it could have been clearly specified. Never mind the fact that when you teleport inside, Lloyd looks at Dart and says "Here THEY are" not "Here you are". They never left Dart, they were always with him. They fought as a party and at the end of the battle Lloyd was almost defeated by Dart's last attacks. Never mind the fact that they were RETURNING FROM UPTAIRS AFTER that cutscene, therefore AFTER the fight with Lloyd ended. Dart stayed with Lloyd and Wink afterwards, then he returned with the rest of the party. Nice theory, but in fact, you are incorrect. You are going to have to deal with this.

That automatic-programmed movement when Dart usually performs and deals the "final blow" to the bosses, means jack-shit. Do not fool yourself, he fought all of the bosses with his entire party. The only ones Dart fought by himself and with no powers are those guys from the tournament, whose are pretty much normal humans.

Stop overrating Dart, he's starting to look bad and he's one of my favorite characters.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Lloyd is saiyan saga DBZ level fast. His casual speeds leave multiple after images, is able to casually dodge multiple tentacle whips from a god form Melbu Frahma at such a speed that he goes completely invisible several times, is able to move in front of a magic fireblast that was a foot away from killing a human woman all the while he was absolutely nowhere near the scene, is able to hit people without looking like he's moved at all. All casual speed.

Dart dodged a surprise sword slash from wingly such as Melbu, not only did he dodge he jumped back about 15 feet during this dodge. This is a big feat because of the superhuman abilities of winglies, especially a top tier wingly like Melbu. Lloyd himself casually stabbed Lavitz when he charged full speed at him in dragoon form. When you consider that Dragoons fly at very high super sonic speeds (they easily outrun volatile explosions that themselves would be up to 23 times faster than sound), then you get an idea for Lloyd's physical capabilities speed wise--Let alone an even superior Wingly like Melbu.

It's not A>B>C. It's simply an example of Dart reacting to a being already superior to the one who's reaction to is being questioned here. Melbu and Lloyd are both Winglies, all of which as a species are superhuman, with Melbu being superior.

One more thing, after Lloyd is defeated and he travels with you to Vellweb, he acts submissive toward Dart during the trip. Very telling.

Superhuman compared to us? Who do you think we are comparing either of them to in the first place to come to the term 'super-human'? That's right, us, actual people, who are a known quantity.

...WTF....EVERY human in the FF7 Party is superhuman. The Turks as well were superhuman. Tifa gave Loz a good fight before he finally turned it up, and Cloud never onced 'owned' Loz either. Even during the times when Cloud was facing Loz alone, Loz was giving Cloud all he could handle and speed blitzed him a couple of times as well.

Cid is superhuman as well. He demonstrated immense strength and leaping ability in AC. You cannot stupidly ignore the actual superhuman feats in that movie and designate someone as superhuman by their origin story alone when people without said origin story have superhuman feats as well.

Sure, Lloyd is fast. But If you're talking about the scene when he's protecting Wink, it looked like a teleportation. And that self-destruct thing wounded him badly there, so it could have killed Dart, easily.

Dart dodged a simple sword slash, stop overrating him, please, thanks.
Lavitz charged at Lloyd and it was taken down by one stab, so I don't know what the hell are you talking about. The Winglies are superior to human beings because they can use Magic abilities, fly naturally, among other unique capabilities. Something Dart and his party (except Meru and Kongol) lacks if they're not using Dragoon forms. Dart is a normal human. The best feat I saw from The Legend Of Dragoon was from Haschel breaking a stone wall with a special skill, other than that, nothing special.

No, Cloud's party by fact aren't super-humans, neither the Turks, you're completely wrong about that. Tifa trained to become what she is by the old master Zangan who had plently of pupils. Loz was playing with Tifa, that's stated. Tifa's punches were nothing more than caresses to him. She didn't even noticed when Loz attacked, it was too fast for her eyes to see, whereas Cloud did with ease. Cloud was dealing with Loz, Kadaj, Yazoo and being shoot the whole time by them. Cloud IS a genetically enhanced super-soldier, thus super-human. Deal with it.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Cloud touched Sephiroth all right, but he never demonstrated the ability to touch an actively air blitzing Sephiroth. Nor could he touch that air slug Bahamut Sin once it started climbing higher, outside of his friends giving him a boost periodically. The examples are right there for you to see.

Your example is pointless as Cloud DOES NOT have any any winnable factors left once Dart goes into Dragoon form. Hell Dart already has superior durability even outside of Dragoon form. Cloud won't have a choice but to be flight blitzed if Dart wants to do it. Dragoons are too fast. Also who says Dart HAS to be close? He has magic too you know. He can also summon the Red Eyed Dragon from which he derives power as well, and then Cloud would be blitzed on two sides.

He NEVER touched Sephiroth, it was Cloud the one that has been pwned by every way possible. My point is that you don't need flying abilities to win a fight. When Bahamut-Sin started going higher, is obviously that Cloud couldn't reach him, it was too high and he hadn't any platforms or buildings to be able to keep up with him. Never mind the fact that Bahamut-Sin did it to destroy the entire city as a result of his last effort. However, Cloud pretty much fought it through air, by climbing, using his agility, reflexes and strength, even smacking him down with his sword, the monster was losing to Cloud. Unless you suggest that Dart is going to escape, if that's the case, then yes, Cloud would never reach him.

Dart can effortlessly cut pieces of building like butter with a single hand, take and survive 4 stabs through the chest? Not that I need those AC feats. Lavitz pretty much died when taking just one and in Dragoon form. What does Dart got above Cloud? His wings? His flying ability? It is not an requirement to win a battle. Magic? So what, Cloud uses Materia. Dart calls an outside help? By your definiton he's strong enough to "take" Cloud by himself just in his regular form. Let's put a Summon Materia to Cloud, shall we? And yes, Dart must also get close to Cloud to attack, or he's going to spend his whole day flying and throwing fire-balls? This isn't a race. Let's not make our own versions of the fight using imaginative fan-ficton, let's debate rationally about who would win, shall we? Lloyd is a more experienced warrior in the swordsmanship department and far more powerful magic-wise, so comparing him to Dart is a damn joke. Dart is a strong warrior, no denying that, but I don't see him beating someone like Cloud who even surpasses Zack in skill. Lloyd would be a good opponent for him though.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I know what point you are making.

But your point is absolutely irrelevant to the debate or anything, what is the point of your point?

Cosmicomet said all the characters from FF7 where super human. I was simply pointing out that that is incorrect.

theyre super human by our standards ermm

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
theyre super human by our standards ermm

Yes, but no one is comparing them to us. It's the fantasy standards that count in these debates.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Yes, but no one is comparing them to us. You are the only one not comparing them to us.

And mayber Griever, but who gives a shit what he thinks anyway?

Regardless, your point, has no point.

Originally posted by NemeBro
You are the only one not comparing them to us. no expression

And mayber Griever, but who gives a shit what he thinks anyway?

You do. No one needs to compare them to us, they are normal humans by their standards, not by ours.

Cid Highwind for instance, is just a pilot who is good with a Spear, he's not super-human.

Originally posted by NemeBro
You are the only one not comparing them to us.

And mayber Griever, but who gives a shit what he thinks anyway?

Regardless, your point, has no point.

What do you mean my point has no point? Did you completely miss the part where cosmiccomet made the claim that all FF7 characters where super human? I quoted him. THAT was what I was responding to. I'm having trouble understanding your confusion here...

Been busy, still am. Will reply to that weaksauce post by Griever when I can, Friday maybe.

Originally posted by TacDavey
What do you mean my point has no point? Did you completely miss the part where cosmiccomet made the claim that all FF7 characters where super human? I quoted him. THAT was what I was responding to. I'm having trouble understanding your confusion here...

Btw, kindly learn to not be incompetent and don't misquote people.

I said everyone in the FF7 party is superhuman. Other combatants like the Turks specifically as well. Which is true. No actual human is capable of the feats they have in AC.

--Their designation in their own universe is of no importance. Not that this has anything to do with ANYTHING in this debate. Not even sure why Griever brought it up in the first place.

Originally posted by TacDavey
What do you mean my point has no point? Did you completely miss the part where cosmiccomet made the claim that all FF7 characters where super human? I quoted him. THAT was what I was responding to. I'm having trouble understanding your confusion here... Which has nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnno bearing on the outcome of this fight at all! =D

Your point means absolutely ****ing nothing, it has no real point, it is useless nitpicking that does nothing for the debate, whether they are superhuman within their own verse is irrelevant when compared to another verse, though really normal FFVII humans are just like us, so all it REALLY means is that the FFVII human potential is greater, so even within FFVII they are practically superhuman.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Been busy, still am. Will reply to that weaksauce post by Griever when I can, Friday maybe.

Who are you talking to?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Which has nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnno bearing on the outcome of this fight at all! =D

Your point means absolutely ****ing nothing, it has no real point, it is useless nitpicking that does nothing for the debate, whether they are superhuman within their own verse is irrelevant when compared to another verse, though really normal FFVII humans are just like us, so all it REALLY means is that the FFVII human potential is greater, so even within FFVII they are practically superhuman.

Cloud's party aren't super-humans, neither the Turks, Cloud is. The Legend Of Dragoon characters are normal humans, except Lloyd, Kongol or maybe Meru. All of them trained to become strong. No one needs to compare them to us. Just look at Bruce Lee for a moment, he was considered the strongest fighter in the world, but he was super-human? Of course not, he trained hard to be able to reach that potential. The same with these characters, they may be "super-humans" when you compare them to us, but they are humans whose trained to attain such strengths.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Btw, kindly learn to not be incompetent and don't misquote people.

I said everyone in the FF7 party is superhuman. Other combatants like the Turks specifically as well. Which is true. No actual human is capable of the feats they have in AC.

--Their designation in their own universe is of no importance. Not that this has anything to do with ANYTHING in this debate. Not even sure why Griever brought it up in the first place.

HA ha. I know what you meant. When I said all FF7 characters I meant the main ones, not civilians. You should probably not be so hasty when throwing words like incompetent around.

Yes, no ACTUAL human. As in, human from our world. Not human from FF7. If we lived in the FF7 universe, we could do it to.

I think GreiverSquall's original point was that Dart or whatever isn't a super human, and Cloud is. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Which has nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnno bearing on the outcome of this fight at all! =D

Your point means absolutely ****ing nothing, it has no real point, it is useless nitpicking that does nothing for the debate, whether they are superhuman within their own verse is irrelevant when compared to another verse, though really normal FFVII humans are just like us, so all it REALLY means is that the FFVII human potential is greater, so even within FFVII they are practically superhuman.

That isn't true. It does have relevance. We are determining who is super human and who isn't.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I think GreiverSquall's original point was that Dart or whatever isn't a super human, and Cloud is. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Correct.

Dart is a human.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That isn't true. It does have relevance. We are determining who is super human and who isn't.

Exactly.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Cloud's party aren't super-humans, neither the Turks, Cloud is. The Legend Of Dragoon characters are normal humans, except Lloyd, Kongol or maybe Meru. All of them trained to become strong. No one needs to compare them to us. Just look at Bruce Lee for a moment, he was considered the strongest fighter in the world, but he was super-human? Of course not, he trained hard to be able to reach that potential. The same with these characters, they may be "super-humans" when you compare them to us, but they are humans whose trained to attain such strengths. Yes, they should be, because their feats are superhuman ones, relative to us, which are the standard for humans.

First of all, a glorified movie star was never the strongest fighter in the world, he was not then, and he would not be now.

Bruce Lee is a normal human being biologically. There are people right now who are as good and even far better fighters than Bruce Lee ever was. No human being is capable of training to the level of the LoD or FFVII characters are, which makes them superhuman in a practical sense. Does it make them technically superhuman in their own verse? No it doesn't, but that has no relevance within a vs. debate.

Originally posted by TacDavey
HA ha. I know what you meant. When I said all FF7 characters I meant the main ones, not civilians. You should probably not be so hasty when throwing words like incompetent around.

Yes, no ACTUAL human. As in, human from our world. Not human from FF7. If we lived in the FF7 universe, we could do it to.

I think GreiverSquall's original point was that Dart or whatever isn't a super human, and Cloud is. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That isn't true. It does have relevance. We are determining who is super human and who isn't. 1. But it is an apt description for you.

2. Actually, no, you could not, not without a lot of training, most FFVII humans are likes us, relatively frail. And that, once again, has no relevance to the debate at hand.

3. What counts as superhuman in one verse can be below a trained human in another. Akuma/Gouki is a human being who trained to become as powerful as he is. He can sink islands, split mountains, and level forests. He would effortlessly crush Cloud. Yet since Cloud is technically superhuman within his own verse, would that give him the win? No, it would not.

4. What counts as superhuman in one verse or another has no bearing when comparing other verses, not even necessarily within the same verse, a technical super in one verse can lose to a technical normal from another.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Yes, they should be, because their feats are superhuman ones, relative to us, which are the standard for humans.

First of all, a glorified movie star was never the strongest fighter in the world, he was not then, and he would not be now.

Bruce Lee is a normal human being biologically. There are people right now who are as good and even far better fighters than Bruce Lee ever was. No human being is capable of training to the level of the LoD or FFVII characters are, which makes them superhuman in a practical sense. Does it make them technically superhuman in their own verse? No it doesn't, but that has no relevance within a vs. debate.

But they are normal humans under their standards, not by ours. They are "super-human" and performs "super-human" feats when you compare them to us. Is the way YOU look at them.

THIS is irrelevant. Being an actor has nothing to do with anything.

Even so, Bruce WAS the best. Normal humans can destroy hard pieces of ice with a single hand, break bricks with ease and give you a mortal blow, so that speaks absolutely about everything, but you must train to attain such strengths, and capabilities. EXACTLY, they look super-human to US. It's fiction, you don't need to compare them to us. It's their standard what works here, not ours.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Actually, no, you could not, not without a lot of training, most FFVII humans are likes us, relatively frail. And that, once again, has no relevance to the debate at hand.

2. What counts as superhuman in one verse can be below a trained human in another. Akuma/Gouki is a human being who trained to become as powerful as he is. He can sink islands, split mountains, and level forests. He would effortlessly crush Cloud. Yet since Cloud is technically superhuman within his own verse, would that give him the win? No, it would not.What counts as superhuman in one verse or another has no bearing when comparing other verses, not even necessarily within the same verse, a technical super in one verse can lose to a technical normal from another.

I agree, not without a lot of training. Look at Tifa, she must have trained hard.

If you compare... Let's say, Krillin to Cid Highwind, then yes, unfortunately, this isn't the case. Dart is human, we have someone like Lloyd to compare, who is above-human capabilitites. We have the game itself making references about the different races. That's the way it is. Cloud is above all of his party, including the Turks, he's a genetically enhanced super-soldier. Play the game.

Now, if nothing of this has relevance because you're soooooooooo overconfident about relevancy, it's about time for you to post something relevant.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. But it is an apt description for you.

2. Actually, no, you could not, not without a lot of training, most FFVII humans are likes us, relatively frail. And that, once again, has no relevance to the debate at hand.

3. What counts as superhuman in one verse can be below a trained human in another. Akuma/Gouki is a human being who trained to become as powerful as he is. He can sink islands, split mountains, and level forests. He would effortlessly crush Cloud. Yet since Cloud is technically superhuman within his own verse, would that give him the win? No, it would not.

4. What counts as superhuman in one verse or another has no bearing when comparing other verses, not even necessarily within the same verse, a technical super in one verse can lose to a technical normal from another.

1. Here, I must disagree. But that's a debate for another time.

2. Well, yeah. Tifa had a lot of training and look what she can do. I never said you could just do it. You would need to train, but it would be more than possible and with no upgrades or super powers needed.

3. I never said it would. A normal human can beat a super human. Being a super human doesn't grantee victory over a human. It does give them an advantage though.

4. Yes, again, it's possible for a human to beat a super human. No one here is claiming super human = victory. It's just one point.

Who is winning so far?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
But they are normal humans under their standards, not by ours. They are "super-human" and performs "super-human" feats when you compare them to us. Is the way YOU look at them.

THIS is irrelevant. Being an actor has nothing to do with anything.

Even so, Bruce WAS the best. Normal humans can destroy hard pieces of ice with a single hand, break bricks with ease and give you a mortal blow, so that speaks absolutely about everything, but you must train to attain such strengths, and capabilities. EXACTLY, they look super-human to US. It's fiction, you don't need to compare them to us. It's their standard what works here, not ours.



I agree, not without a lot of training. Look at Tifa, she must have trained hard.

If you compare... Let's say, Krillin to Cid Highwind, then yes, unfortunately, this isn't the case. Dart is human, we have someone like Lloyd to compare, who is above-human capabilitites. We have the game itself making references about the different races. That's the way it is. Cloud is above all of his party, including the Turks, he's a genetically enhanced super-soldier. Play the game.

Now, if nothing of this has relevance because you're soooooooooo overconfident about relevancy, it's about time for you to post something relevant. 1. And their standards are utterly irrelevant. It is only the comparison between the characters. That is the way I look at them, a character's "human" status in his own verse is irrelevant in a vs. thread.

2. Was not my point. The man was an actor, he was not the best fighter of his day, let alone of all time. Bruce Lee as a fighter is so ****ing overrated, he once fought a skilled Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioner. He lost. Was Lee a skilled martial artist? Yeah. Was he a world-class fighter? No.

3. Joe Lewis was better than Bruce even back in the day, due to, you know, actually being a real, seasoned fighter. Also, as a man who trained with Lee alot, he confirmed he is not that great. Killing a human being with your bare hands is not very hard actually, depends on where you strike them. Define a hard piece of ice. Also, there are much better physical feats. There is a man who can deadlift 1,013 pounds, people have pulled 200 tons, and one man stopped a plane from taking off by clipping it to his hair. Those are feats sorta possibly attainable through training. They do not just look superhuman, no human being would be able to achieve a level such as that.

4. Obviously. Hard to the point that she is capable of superhuman feats.

5. It doesn't matter. If Dart as a normal human is capable of more impressive feats than Cloud, then that makes him stronger than Cloud, superhuman or no. Cloud is above his party. I never disputed that, but someone with so lacking an intellect as you assumed I did.

6. I am. That whether Dart in his verse is technically superhuman has no bearing on the outcome of this fight.

Originally posted by TacDavey
1. Here, I must disagree. But that's a debate for another time.

2. Well, yeah. Tifa had a lot of training and look what she can do. I never said you could just do it. You would need to train, but it would be more than possible and with no upgrades or super powers needed.

3. I never said it would. A normal human can beat a super human. Being a super human doesn't grantee victory over a human. It does give them an advantage though.

4. Yes, again, it's possible for a human to beat a super human. No one here is claiming super human = victory. It's just one point. 2. In FFVII? Sure. Here or another verse? No, in the case of the other verse not necessarily.

3. Oh really? Pray-tell what "advantage" Cloud has over Gouki then? Considering as genetically altered as he is, being a technical super, Gouki is stronger, faster, more durable, a better fighter, and far more powerful. What advantage does Cloud have over Gouki then? What advantage does his status as a super give him? What the status he is in his own verse means NOTHING when against another.

4. One that has nothing to do with who wins.

Also, Webstered it.

You're wrong.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superhuman

"exceeding normal human power, size, or capability"

So if your training gives you greater than human power, capability, or size (Though prolly not this one...), you are by definition a superhuman.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. And their standards are utterly irrelevant. It is only the comparison between the characters. That is the way I look at them, a character's "human" status in his own verse is irrelevant in a vs. thread.

2. Was not my point. The man was an actor, he was not the best fighter of his day, let alone of all time. Bruce Lee as a fighter is so ****ing overrated, he once fought a skilled Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioner. He lost. Was Lee a skilled martial artist? Yeah. Was he a world-class fighter? No.

3. Joe Lewis was better than Bruce even back in the day, due to, you know, actually being a real, seasoned fighter. Also, as a man who trained with Lee alot, he confirmed he is not that great. Killing a human being with your bare hands is not very hard actually, depends on where you strike them. Define a hard piece of ice. no expression Also, there are much better physical feats. There is a man who can deadlift 1,013 pounds, people have pulled 200 tons, and one man stopped a plane from taking off by clipping it to his hair. Those are feats sorta possibly attainable through training. They do not just look superhuman, no human being would be able to achieve a level such as that.

4. Obviously. Hard to the point that she is capable of superhuman feats.

5. It doesn't matter. If Dart as a normal human is capable of more impressive feats than Cloud, then that makes him stronger than Cloud, superhuman or no. Cloud is above his party. I never disputed that, but someone with so lacking an intellect as you assumed I did.

6. I am. That whether Dart in his verse is technically superhuman has no bearing on the outcome of this fight.

You were comparing them to us, actual people, from the real world, that is irrelevant. Any character in fiction will look always "super-human" if you compare them to us. No one needs to do that here. Unless is X-Men, which humans are like US.

But you keep saying he was an actor, so what? That does not change absolutely anything when taking into consideration his capabilities in battle. And I said that Bruce Lee was considered the best fighter, also the most influential martial artist. I didn't said he was undefeated, nor invincible.

That proves even further my point, if Joe Lewis was an awesome fighter, then there you have, but he's still human, he just trained damn hard to achieve those things, but is still under human's capabilities. Indeed, but martial artists knows very well where to strike. Bruce Lee has a lot of physical feats a well, like thrusting his fingers through unopened cans of Coca-Cola, snatch a dime off a person's open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind, etc. Look for them in Wikipedia.

She's a strong human. Cloud IS super-human.

I haven't seen any. And you assumed that I assumed you did, which is wrong, mate.

But who says he's technically super-human?

Seriously, you're trying hard, and there's no need for you, such intelligent being, to do that. We all got your points, a human in one Universe can be super-powerful compared to another human in a different Universe, like, you know... Comparing Krillin to Cid Highwind.

Originally posted by NemeBro
You're wrong.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superhuman

"exceeding normal human power, size, or capability"

So if your training gives you greater than human power, capability, or size (Though prolly not this one...), you are by definition a superhuman.

"Superhuman can mean an improved human, for example, by genetic modification, cybernetic implants, or as what humans might evolve into, in the distant future. Occasionally, it could mean an otherwise "normal" human with unusual abilities, such as psychic abilities, flying abilities, or exceptional proficiency at something, far beyond the norm.

Superhuman can also mean something that is not human, but considered to be "superior" to humans in some ways. A robot that easily passed the Turing test, and could do some things humans cannot, could be considered superhuman. A very intelligent or strong alien could be considered superhuman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superhuman

That definition suits me better than yours.

Training doesn't gives you more than human power, training makes you a stronger human.

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. In FFVII? Sure. Here or another verse? No, in the case of the other verse not necessarily.

3. Oh really? Pray-tell what "advantage" Cloud has over Gouki then? Considering as genetically altered as he is, being a technical super, Gouki is stronger, faster, more durable, a better fighter, and far more powerful. What advantage does Cloud have over Gouki then? What advantage does his status as a super give him? What the status he is in his own verse means NOTHING when against another.

4. One that has nothing to do with who wins.

Also, Webstered it.

You're wrong.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superhuman

"exceeding normal human power, size, or capability"

So if your training gives you greater than human power, capability, or size (Though prolly not this one...), you are by definition a superhuman.

2. Well, look at the verse then. Are the characters doing super human stuff without being super human? Then I guess it applies to that verse as well.

3. I have no idea who Gouki is. But did you just say Gouki is technically a super human? Then I would say Clouds status as a super human doesn't give him an advantage against Gouki, since they are both super humans.

4. Really? I think it does. If you have a super human and a human, it is more logical to say the super human would win the fight. Does it guarantee a victory? No. It DOES have to be responded to though.

I want to point out a very important part of that definition.

"exceeding normal human"

So, if you are a normal human who trains to a certain level, you are not super human because you have done nothing a normal human couldn't do. Which is obvious since your a normal human, and you just did it.

You can't become a super human through training.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You were comparing them to us, actual people, from the real world, that is irrelevant. Any character in fiction will look always "super-human" if you compare them to us. No one needs to do that here. Unless is X-Men, which humans are like US.

But you keep saying he was an actor, so what? That does not change absolutely anything when taking into consideration his capabilities in battle. And I said that Bruce Lee was considered the best fighter, also the most influential martial artist. I didn't said he was undefeated, nor invincible.

That proves even further my point, if Joe Lewis was an awesome fighter, then there you have, but he's still human, he just trained damn hard to achieve those things, but is still under human's capabilities. Indeed, but martial artists knows very well where to strike. Bruce Lee has a lot of physical feats a well, like thrusting his fingers through unopened cans of Coca-Cola, snatch a dime off a person's open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind, etc. Look for them in Wikipedia.

She's a strong human. Cloud IS super-human.

I haven't seen any. And you assumed that I assumed you did, which is wrong, mate.

But who says he's technically super-human?

Seriously, you're trying hard, and there's no need for you, such intelligent being, to do that. We all got your points, a human in one Universe can be super-powerful compared to another human in a different Universe, like, you know... Comparing Krillin to Cid Highwind.



"Superhuman can mean an improved human, for example, by genetic modification, cybernetic implants, or as what humans might evolve into, in the distant future. Occasionally, it could mean an otherwise "normal" human with unusual abilities, such as psychic abilities, flying abilities, or exceptional proficiency at something, far beyond the norm.

Superhuman can also mean something that is not human, but considered to be "superior" to humans in some ways. A robot that easily passed the Turing test, and could do some things humans cannot, could be considered superhuman. A very intelligent or strong alien could be considered superhuman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superhuman

That definition suits me better than yours.

Training doesn't gives you more than human power, training makes you a stronger human. 1. Yeah, I know, humans. Though even compared to the humans of their world, the gap between them and those humands and us is the same, everyday humans in FFVII are just as relatively weak as us. This means that in FFVII, human potential is greater. Any character in fiction? No, not really, not at all honestly, being superhuman is a meaningless title when comparing characters from other verses.

2. Bruce Lee was considered the best fighter by people who have no idea what they are talking about. Tell me... What capabilities in battle? Not movie shit, no, show me what makes him a world-class fighter. He has nothing resembling a professional fight record.

3. Yeah, and not one human being to have ever lived can do some of the things the supposed "humans" in FFVII or LoD can do, which means that they have superhuman abilities. Also, physically speaking, martial artists are not the most impressive specimens alive except in regards to endurance and maybe reaction-time. Strongmen are the strongest men in the world, sprinters are the fastest in the world, etc. I know what Bruce Lee's physical feats are, they are not the best a human is capable of.

4. I have to ask, do you believe a human being could train themselves to the physical level Tifa or Yuffie are at? Because your post implies that you do. While Cloud is stronger than Tifa, Gouki, a trained human, is far stronger than Cloud.

5. "Cloud is above all of his party, including the Turks, he's a genetically enhanced super-soldier. Play the game." This statement strongly implies that I did not think Cloud was above his party, something I never so much as hinted at. If this was not your intended meaning, you are inept at conveying a point in written form. Which is it?

6. The better question is: Who cares if he is technically superhuman? It means absolutely nothing if Dart is capable of greater feats than Cloud.

7. I know. Which is why whether Cloud or Dart are technical supers or not makes no difference in this fight.

8. I'm sorry, wikipedia vs. Merriam Webster's dictionary? Nah man, try harder.

Originally posted by TacDavey
2. Well, look at the verse then. Are the characters doing super human stuff without being super human? Then I guess it applies to that verse as well.

3. I have no idea who Gouki is. But did you just say Gouki is technically a super human? Then I would say Clouds status as a super human doesn't give him an advantage against Gouki, since they are both super humans.

4. Really? I think it does. If you have a super human and a human, it is more logical to say the super human would win the fight. Does it guarantee a victory? No. It DOES have to be responded to though.

I want to point out a very important part of that definition.

"exceeding normal human"

So, if you are a normal human who trains to a certain level, you are not super human because you have done nothing a normal human couldn't do. Which is obvious since your a normal human, and you just did it.

You can't become a super human through training. 2. Because all superhuman feats are equalised right? FFVII characters are capable of superhuman physical feats. As are the trained humans in Dragonball. Tell me, who do you think is the stronger "human?"

3. No, I didn't, read my post again. Gouki is a human who trained to his level. And you ignored my point, what advantage does Cloud, a technical super, have over Gouki, a technical human?

4. No, it really does not, unless the "human" is truly only of normal human capabilities, when the human can perform superhuman feats, any advantage of only being a "superhuman" is gone. Really, titles should not hold any real clout regardless.

Normal human capability? What is a normal human?

The average human.

Super means above.

The average human male can lift, say, 150 pounds above his head.

If a human has trained to lift twice that or more, they are technically superhuman.

Not that the title means anything.

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. Because all superhuman feats are equalised right? FFVII characters are capable of superhuman physical feats. As are the trained humans in Dragonball. Tell me, who do you think is the stronger "human?"

3. No, I didn't, read my post again. Gouki is a human who trained to his level. And you ignored my point, what advantage does Cloud, a technical super, have over Gouki, a technical human?

4. No, it really does not, unless the "human" is truly only of normal human capabilities, when the human can perform superhuman feats, any advantage of only being a "superhuman" is gone. Really, titles should not hold any real clout regardless.

Normal human capability? What is a normal human?

The average human.

Super means above.

The average human male can lift, say, 150 pounds above his head.

If a human has trained to lift twice that or more, they are technically superhuman.

Not that the title means anything.

2. I already agreed that it is possible for humans to still defeat super humans.

Like I said, if all we know of the two characters is that one is a super human and one isn't. The super human takes the fight. Now, the normal human in this case is going to have to be like the DBZ example. It needs enough evidence to prove that it is stronger than the other even though the other one is a super human.

3. Like I said, I don't know who Gouki is. But the advantage a super human has over a normal human is the potential to move past a normal humans boundaries. Since Gouki is a normal human, he can only get as strong as is humanly possible. However, a super human can go past that limit.

4. Nemebro, are you really saying that the fact that Cloud is genetically enhanced past the strength of a normal person is absolutely irrelevant to who would win in a fight? Honestly? That sounds pretty relevant to me. Does it prove Cloud would win? Nope. Never claimed it did. It IS relevant though. As relevant as the fact that Dart, or whoever, can fly, or Ultimicia uses time magic, or Squall is a highly trained mercenary. All these things are relevant when considering someones capabilities in a fight.

I'm sorry, Nemebro, but you are just wrong. If a normal person can do it. It isn't super human. End of story. You say a normal person trained to higher levels than average? Okay, but a NORMAL PERSON DID IT, didn't he. Therefore IT IS POSSIBLE FOR NORMAL PEOPLE TO DO IT. Thus, it isn't super human.

Bruce Lee wasn't super human. He was way high up in human standards but in the end, anyone could reach his level given enough training. He wasn't super human, because any normal person could do what he did.

A super human is someone who goes beyond what is possible for a human. If a human can do it, they aren't super human. Plain and simple.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Yeah, I know, humans. Though even compared to the humans of their world, the gap between them and those humands and us is the same, everyday humans in FFVII are just as relatively weak as us. This means that in FFVII, human potential is greater. Any character in fiction? No, not really, not at all honestly, being superhuman is a meaningless title when comparing characters from other verses.

2. Bruce Lee was considered the best fighter by people who have no idea what they are talking about. Tell me... What capabilities in battle? Not movie shit, no, show me what makes him a world-class fighter. He has nothing resembling a professional fight record.

3. Yeah, and not one human being to have ever lived can do some of the things the supposed "humans" in FFVII or LoD can do, which means that they have superhuman abilities. Also, physically speaking, martial artists are not the most impressive specimens alive except in regards to endurance and maybe reaction-time. Strongmen are the strongest men in the world, sprinters are the fastest in the world, etc. I know what Bruce Lee's physical feats are, they are not the best a human is capable of.

4. I have to ask, do you believe a human being could train themselves to the physical level Tifa or Yuffie are at? Because your post implies that you do. While Cloud is stronger than Tifa, Gouki, a trained human, is far stronger than Cloud.

5. "Cloud is above all of his party, including the Turks, he's a genetically enhanced super-soldier. Play the game." This statement strongly implies that I did not think Cloud was above his party, something I never so much as hinted at. If this was not your intended meaning, you are inept at conveying a point in written form. Which is it?

6. The better question is: Who cares if he is technically superhuman? It means absolutely nothing if Dart is capable of greater feats than Cloud.

7. I know. Which is why whether Cloud or Dart are technical supers or not makes no difference in this fight.

8. I'm sorry, wikipedia vs. Merriam Webster's dictionary? Nah man, try harder.

Normal human capability? What is a normal human?

The average human.

Super means above.

The average human male can lift, say, 150 pounds above his head.

If a human has trained to lift twice that or more, they are technically superhuman.

Not that the title means anything.

Then they aren't weak as us, that's why you shouldn't compare them to us. Yes, in almost any fiction humans characters looks "super-human" to us, maybe without much training as us they can do more stuff.

His capabilities? Dunno, like being the founder of the Jeet Kune Do martial arts? Or knowing other several martial disciplines? What is this so important now? Bruce Lee was just a point, I'm not arguing whether he's the absolutely strongest man on Earth, is a point, it shows you can be a strong as them by training, just as someone who can sing, it's an ability, acquired through natural training, also a natural talent. How comes those people doesn't know about what they're talking about when you're the one asking stuff? Do not undervalue people's knowledge, maybe the one who doesn't know anything is you.

That's their standards, not ours. Good, and those other "specimens" had training to achieve those things. But I suppose a sprinter wouldn't beat a martial artist, right? You know, 'cuz of their kind of training.

I believe no one has stated such thing. Because, and once again, you are comparing fictional characters and their standards to ours. A human in Final Fantasy VII would be able to do the same, therefore Tifa is a strong trained human. Gouki? Look at my previous post, I responded to it, I said a human from one Universe can be super-powerful compared to another human from other Universe, which is not the issue, the issue comes when you compare them to us. I believe Gouki nor Krillin are in this thread either, never mind the fact that they aren't even comparable to Cloud or Dart, so that won't save your stance.

Not necessarily, I was making a reference to CosmicComet's posts, precisely, since he said the Turks were super-human as well as Cloud's party, which is not true, at all. "Play the game" was for you though, yes, because I thought you didn't. Sir, there's no need for you to brought up such arrogant attitude, by insulting me only allows me to look at you from above, and do not pretend I'm going to bring myself down to your level.

Look at Tifa's feats. Cloud's far beyond that. A simple SOLDIER wouldn't be match for a human. They are genetically advanced supe-humans. So being super-human does have relevance, it isn't just a title. Feats aren't everything either, you don't neeed them to know someone is strong.

It does have a better detailed description, though. That makes you a stronger human. That does not gives you power far beyond humans capabilities which can be accessed by natural training. If you, suddenly, let's say... obtain the ability to fly, then yes, you would be considered super-human.