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how does he fare? Does he die, kill fewer, or kill more than grievous?

In that fight, why didn't the Jedi sense Grevious in the Force when he was hiding above them?

It's possible that since grevious is mostly metal, he is less of a life form/disturbance in the force. He is also not a force user.

This does create a question: If those Jedi were all so powerful, WHY didn't they sense him?

Shaak Ti, Aayla Sacura and Ki-Adi-Mundi together are too much for Maul to handle. Granted tehy arn't in the best of shape but I still don't think he can take it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Shaak Ti, Aayla Sacura and Ki-Adi-Mundi together are too much for Maul to handle. Granted tehy arn't in the best of shape but I still don't think he can take it.

None of what you just posted there made any sense.

Yeah, Maul is a dead man.

Maul dies.

Maul who manhandled TPM Jinn?

Yep, that's the Maul. Couldn't beat him till he got him 1 on 1. With a padawan. This is THREE council members. He is toast.

Three council members who have no feats or accolades to their names.

Unlike Jinn.

who was Mace's equal.

Moreover, what stops him from using the same tactic?

Originally posted by truejedi
Yep, that's the Maul. Couldn't beat him till he got him 1 on 1. With a padawan. This is THREE council members. He is toast.
um no.

Maul was "in control of the fight" and Jinn knew it.

Originally posted by Shoes
Unlike Jinn.

who was Mace's equal. Yeah, even though Qui-Gon was killed by Maul, I'm sure he could have duplicated Mace's feat and beaten Sidious.

none

In control of an older Qui Gonn Jinn hardly means he could beat him before he got him separated. @shoes: I just posted the relevant passages on QGJ's prime vs. his old age.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, even though Qui-Gon was killed by Maul, I'm sure he could have duplicated Mace's feat and beaten Sidious.

none

I never claimed TPM Mace > ROTS Mace. Quite the contrary, merely that both Qui-Gon and Mace were council members, both of which Maul can/did kill. Not that your argument makes any sense, because of course Mace will beat any dark sider with the exception of DE Sidious. That said, Mace's raw bladework, without the added features of the loop & Vaapad (something that he had yet to develop at that point in time), is quite comparable to Maul's. One might say, inferior, judging from the way Maul tore through Jinn.

Originally posted by truejedi
In control of an older Qui Gonn Jinn hardly means he could beat him before he got him separated. @shoes: I just posted the relevant passages on QGJ's prime vs. his old age.

Um, actually, no. You fail to draw the line between his "old age", and his prime. Irrelevant quotes gathered from TPM mean nothing; you cannot prove that his old age hindered his ability to remain equals with Mace (something you've yet to touch on), or percisely when he was in his prime. Furthermore, if you cannot give us an accurate definition of his prime, use of that argument is invalid.

Even during his fight, as Kenobi is watching them, he sees that Jinn is visibly straining, that Maul was in complete control, and that Qui-Gon was severely out-classed.

Originally posted by Shoes



Um, actually, no. You fail to draw the line between his "old age", and his prime. Irrelevant quotes gathered from TPM mean nothing; you cannot prove that his old age hindered his ability to remain equals with Mace (something you've yet to touch on), or percisely when he was in his prime. Furthermore, if you cannot give us an accurate definition of his prime, use of that argument is invalid.

Even during his fight, as Kenobi is watching them, he sees that Jinn is visibly straining, that Maul was in complete control, and that Qui-Gon was severely out-classed.

You didn't read my quotes did you? The cover everything you said. : ) Try the other Maul thread on this page.

There are five threads, and that was a trick question. You can't prove it.

You are tiresome. Back in the day when I was a newb i would have been shredded to pieces for not even bothering to read the source before arguing.

I'll humor you again. Stop making angry accusations without fact-checking.

Pg. 283: "Qui-Gon was nearing sixty; his youth was behind him and his strength was beginning to diminish."

Pg 286: "He was worn and battered by now, close to exhaustion..."
Pg 299: "Obi wan did not like the weariness he saw in the slump of the older man's shoulders, in the bow of his back. He was the best swordsman Obi-Wan had ever seen, but he was growing old"

Pg 200: "His opponent was strong, and had tested him severely. He was getting old, he decided, and he did not like the feeling."



Clearly, TPM Qui Gonn was not Qui-Gonn's prime.

Originally posted by Shoes
I never claimed TPM Mace > ROTS Mace. Quite the contrary, merely that both Qui-Gon and Mace were council members, both of which Maul can/did kill. Not that your argument makes any sense, because of course Mace will beat any dark sider with the exception of DE Sidious. That said, Mace's raw bladework, without the added features of the loop & Vaapad (something that he had yet to develop at that point in time), is quite comparable to Maul's. One might say, inferior, judging from the way Maul tore through Jinn. facepalm

Originally posted by truejedi

Pg. 283: "Qui-Gon was nearing sixty; his youth was behind him and his strength was beginning to diminish."

Pg 286: "He was worn and battered by now, close to exhaustion..."
Pg 299: "Obi wan did not like the weariness he saw in the slump of the older man's shoulders, in the bow of his back. He was the best swordsman Obi-Wan had ever seen, but he was growing old"

Pg 200: "His opponent was strong, and had tested him severely. He was getting old, he decided, and he did not like the feeling."



Clearly, TPM Qui Gonn was not Qui-Gonn's prime.

WTF I don't care.

What I do care about is when was his prime, and how much did his age affect his performance.

What he was like in his prime has NOTHING to do with Maul. We don't know what he was like in his prime, because we don't know how good Mace was when he QGJ were sparring partners.

You are asking for an unknown that doesn't affect our view of Maul ANYWAY. Pull it together man!

1. qui-gon wasnt a council member.
2. obi-wan stating he could have been a council member means nothing
2. even if he was a council member, combat proficiency is not a prerequisite for joining the council, which is why supposed badasses become battle masters while clowns like coleman trebor become council members.

Maul probably wouldn't fare as well. He wouldn't have been able to ambush them like Grevious did, and he would have to fight a retreating battle since he's screwed if they surround him.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
1. qui-gon wasnt a council member.
2. obi-wan stating he could have been a council member means nothing
2. even if he was a council member, combat proficiency is not a prerequisite for joining the council, which is why supposed badasses become battle masters while clowns like coleman trebor become council members.

1-Wookiepedia states he was nominated twice to be on the council, effectively granting him that status.
2- w/e
3- You've yet to prove he wasn't a proficient duelist. Being on par with Windu is huge, albeit TPM Windu.

1. Being nominated does not a council member make.
2. Being a council member means nothing in terms of skill.
3. He was not on par with TPM Windu. We don't know what manifestation of mace he was on par with.Could have been 20 year old Mace (which would have been like 30 year old QGJ). That particular insight into his sparring ability doesn't mean anything in terms of debating, since it isn't quantifiable.

Originally posted by Shoes
1-Wookiepedia states he was nominated twice to be on the council, effectively granting him that status.
2- w/e
3- You've yet to prove he wasn't a proficient duelist. Being on par with Windu is huge, albeit TPM Windu.

1. wookiepedia can suck it and being nominated is not the same as actually being put on the council. there is no try there is do or do not.

2. damn skippy. >\

3. that is stoopid and dumb like your face, i dont need to prove that he wasnt a great swordsmen because i never said that he wasnt, only that your reasons for thinking he is are lame and unacceptable. try harder

@Ms. Marvel:

Qui Gon WAS a great duelist though.


I'm pretty sure I remember there being several quotes in his favor.
He kept up with Darth Maul, who beat Anoon, who's saber skills were "second to none (probably not literally, but still impressive)".
He would stalemate TPM Mace in sparring matches.
Obi Wan said that Qui Gon would've been on the Council, but he often disagreed with the Council.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
He would stalemate TPM Mace in sparring matches. Did we ever figure out where exactly this was mentioned? Because as I recall, no one was ever able to provide the source of that statement.

I'm fairly certain it never specified TPM Mace, and given that Qui-Gon has twenty years on him, the feat gets less impressive the farther back you go.

I figured that. But I have never seen any canon sources that say anything about Qui-Gon being Mace's equal. Ever.

Originally posted by Galan007
Did we ever figure out where exactly this was mentioned? Because as I recall, no one was ever able to provide the source of that statement.

That source was never provided. At least the TPM version. If I remember correctly there was a source-book that confirmed it at SOME POINT, but that point wasn't specified.

Originally posted by truejedi
That source was never provided. At least the TPM version.

If I remember correctly there was a source-book that confirmed it at SOME POINT, but that point wasn't specified. That's what I thought. However, I have never seen any canon source (at all) which states Qui-Gon=Mace. The source Wookie cites for that statement is The New Essential Guide to Characters - but I have already posted Qui-Gon AND Mace's bios from that book, and neither mentions Qui-Gon being Mace's equal.

So until something solid is posted to back up the statement in question, then I will continue to completely disregard it as any sort of permissible evidence.

I thought shoes or Darth Martin did that. The quote was something along the lines of "only two, Yoda and Qui-Gon-Jinn had ever bested him."

Which really established NOTHING in terms of QGJ actually being as good as Mace. If he beat him once, that doesn't really mean anything. We would need to know how many times they actually sparred, and the time period was never mentioned. They had both been in the jedi order together for at least 40 years.

Originally posted by truejedi
I thought shoes or Darth Martin did that. The quote was something along the lines of "only two, Yoda and Qui-Gon-Jinn had ever bested him."

Which really established NOTHING in terms of QGJ actually being as good as Mace. If he beat him once, that doesn't really mean anything. We would need to know how many times they actually sparred, and the time period was never mentioned. They had both been in the jedi order together for at least 40 years. The quote I believe you're referring to came from Mace's entry in the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook. If so, it didn't say anything about Qui-Gon stalemating/beating Mace. It said Dooku and Yoda were the only fellas to ever best him (at an unknown point in time, mind you.)

oh, my bad then. That makes sense.