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Setting: Coruscant Jedi Temple (there's a Light Side nexus there, right?)

"in teh zone" prime Luke Skywalker
"in teh zone" prime Anakin Skywalker

vs

DE Sidious
RoT Bane
Exar Kun

Both sides are bloodlusted and aware of the other team's abilities as well as each other's, NO pis or cis

1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All out

Well Luks rlly smaarte and pwrful and anikins modest n tough and sidz is arrugunt and so is bane n kun so luk wins.

Originally posted by Gideon
Well Luks rlly smaarte and pwrful and anikins modest n tough and sidz is arrugunt and so is bane n kun so luk wins. Originally posted by Red Nemesis
You make a very insightful and well-reasoned point. The hordes of citations and reams of evidence you have supplied us with is a real credit to your intelligence and effort.

I am afraid that you have neglected a rather important point:


Bandon solos.

btw, by "prime" I mean prime that they reached in their lives, not their theoretical prime.

Pretty much it's Luke vs 3.

So no.

Originally posted by Gideon
Well Luks rlly smaarte and pwrful and anikins modest n tough and sidz is arrugunt and so is bane n kun so luk wins.

QFT.


thoze of courses Anakin is dead in the first 2 seconds and Luke fights in my honest opinion, the three greatest Sith Lords of all time. So he dies. Though the Abeloth fight was pretty badass... just saying. If it was quantifiable, like for instance, if he was clearly fighting 5 sith lords and abeloth at once and winning... then I might be jumping on that Luke ftw train. But alas, it was not. I was saddened.

Anakin is a non-factor in this fight.
Luke can take down each one of them in 1 on 1, but in this scenario he is dead.

"in teh zone" ROTS Anakin certainly would be a factor, unless if DE Sidious takes him out right away. If Luke figures out a way to stop this, ie though illusions, Luke can blitz Sidious while Anakin faces the other two. Luke in this scenario is in his prime (LOTF/FOTJ) and "in teh zone", so he'd probably pwn Sidious arguably easier than "in teh zone" ROTS Anakin pwned Dooku (Luke by this point is already > Sidious, but ROTS Anakin was inferior to Dooku). Anakin could conceivably hold off the other two.

But then Exar Kun could just blast Anakin

But then force storm, and Bane brings the temple down on everyone except himself.

Or Palpatine disintigrates their lightsabers.

Originally posted by Shoes
But then force storm, and Bane brings the temple down on everyone except himself.

Or Palpatine disintigrates their lightsabers.

Didn't Sidious admit that he can't control his Force storms? I'm not sure.

Bane needed to charge up his attack to bring down the foundations of an over 10,000 year old temple. The Jedi Temple is newer and more durable.

No. Sidious could control his storms, just not when augmented(?) Luke + Leia somehow pushed the force around him.

DE was awful.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
"in teh zone" ROTS Anakin certainly would be a factor, unless if DE Sidious takes him out right away. If Luke figures out a way to stop this, ie though illusions, Luke can blitz Sidious while Anakin faces the other two. Luke in this scenario is in his prime (LOTF/FOTJ) and "in teh zone", so he'd probably pwn Sidious arguably easier than "in teh zone" ROTS Anakin pwned Dooku (Luke by this point is already > Sidious, but ROTS Anakin was inferior to Dooku). Anakin could conceivably hold off the other two.

But then Exar Kun could just blast Anakin Luke is not going to blitz Sidious. And Anakin would go down hard against Kun and Bane.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Setting: Coruscant Jedi Temple (there's a Light Side nexus there, right?)

"in teh zone" prime Luke Skywalker
"in teh zone" prime Anakin Skywalker

vs

DE Sidious
RoT Bane
Exar Kun

Both sides are bloodlusted and aware of the other team's abilities as well as each other's, NO pis or cis

1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All out

y teh fuk u keep makin treds u fkin ugly mutafuker. go out get sum pussy u dickless fagget muthefuker.

u too ugly biatch.

S66
Luke is not going to blitz Sidious.

lawl wtf

Not only could Luke blitz the Emperor, but he could solo the Empire itself.

Originally posted by Gideon
lawl wtf

Not only could Luke blitz the Emperor, but he could solo the Empire itself.

Maybe if the empire were next to a black hole, or built some sort of superweapon with a easily exploitable flaw that would blow the whole thing up... we can only dream though.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Didn't Sidious admit that he can't control his Force storms? I'm not sure. It was stated that Palpatine's Force Storms were "a chaos that he could not control." However, it seemed like Palps demonstrated a very impressive degree of control over said Storm when he used one to teleport Luke from the surface of a planet, across space, and onto his ship. /shrug

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Luke is not going to blitz Sidious. And Anakin would go down hard against Kun and Bane.

This is an "in teh zone" Luke in his prime...he'd pwn Sidious.

I'm not sure if "in teh zone" ROTS Anakin could hold off Bane and Exar. He might have a chance if he can avoid Exar's amulet blasts.

If Bane and Exar are in the zone, Anakin gets pwned by 20 million volts of lightning from 2 or evn all 3 if they shortly incapacitate luke (btw i took a random number)

Anakin is insignificant. Team 2 is winning this easily.

Originally posted by Pwned
If Bane and Exar are in the zone, Anakin gets pwned by 20 million volts of lightning from 2 or evn all 3 if they shortly incapacitate luke (btw i took a random number)

But Bane and Exar are not "in teh zone!!!!' in this fight. Luke and Anakin are.

Originally posted by truejedi
Anakin is insignificant. Team 2 is winning this easily.

Anakin is not insignificant; "in teh zone!!!!" Anakin wtfpwned Dooku faster than Yoda did.

Originally posted by Galan007
It was stated that Palpatine's Force Storms were "a chaos that he could not control." However, it seemed like Palps demonstrated a very impressive degree of control over said Storm when he used one to teleport Luke from the surface of a planet, across space, and onto his ship. /shrug I don't think he controlled them so much as restrained/semi-guided them to a general direction.

It's like a Pit/Great Dane Hybrid, it does what it wants, you can only somewhat guide it along.

Team 2 wins. However, saying Anakin is a non-factor is laughable. He could likely take on either Exar Kun or Bane, or at the very least keep them busy for a long time. However, the leaves Luke with Sidious and another Sith. He would have his hands full with SIdious throw on another SIth lord and Luke goes down... Hard. Anakin is then ****ed.

um...

no?

Take on does not neccesarily mean beat. Although I belive in "teh z0ne" Anakin would be more than a match for Exar Kun.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis





um...

no?

Remember that this in "in teh zone" Anakin.

Originally posted by ares834
Take on does not neccesarily mean beat. Although I belive in "teh z0ne" Anakin would be more than a match for Exar Kun.

I don't think there would be any "taking on" occurring, let alone "beating." There will be no beating going on.

Exar Kun whips him like a red-headed stepchild.

He is more adept with a blade. (Kun invented his own style and weapon.)
He is more knowledgeable with the Force. (Kun had more combat-applicable knowledge than Skywalker ever dreamed of.)
He is more adept with the Force. (Spamming amulet blasts will quickly overwhelm the boy wonder.)

Everything that Anakin could do, Kun could do better.

You would admit that Yoda could take on Kun right Nemesis? Yet yoda couldn't put down Dooku in a much longer time then it took Zone Anakin to pwn Dooku. Can you explain how you can dismiss this fact?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You would admit that Yoda could take on Kun right Nemesis? Yet yoda couldn't put down Dooku in a much longer time then it took Zone Anakin to pwn Dooku. Can you explain how you can dismiss this fact? Just because Yoda hadn't killed Dooku yet, doesn't mean he was going to lose. You wouldn't distract your opponent and flee if you were going to win.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Just because Yoda hadn't killed Dooku yet, doesn't mean he was going to lose. You wouldn't distract your opponent and flee if you were going to win.

Agreed and never said Yoda was going to lose. I think it was clear tht Dooku knew he had to run.. just like Sid knew he had to run from Yoda. You still never addressed my point though and how this fact can be dismissed..... Yoda couldn't kill Dooku as quick at Zone Anakin did... yet he's a none factor against Kun or Bane when clearly Yoda would be? Again I'm not saying Anakin equals Yoda... what I am saying is zone anakin has done better against a common foe than Yoda and would be a factor if it went to sabers.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

He is more adept with a blade. (Kun invented his own style and weapon.)

Inventing you own style does not make one unbeatable. And The Essential Guide to the Force states that the Jedi Exiles created the dual bladed lightsaber. Regardless, Anakin's effortless defeat of Dooku is far more impressive than anything Exar Kun has ever done with his lightsaber skills.

True. But it didn't help Dooku.

This is very possible.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You would admit that Yoda could take on Kun right Nemesis? Yet yoda couldn't put down Dooku in a much longer time then it took Zone Anakin to pwn Dooku. Can you explain how you can dismiss this fact?
Kun < Yoda
(Yoda - Dooku) < (Anakin - Dooku)
Anakin ? Kun


I'm pretty sure that your post isn't much more than a non sequitur. And if you'd like to assert that it isn't (by upholding the concept of ABC in the truest sense of the word) then you just made a mediocre transitive fallacy. Feel free to develop an argument whenever is convenient for you.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Just because Yoda hadn't killed Dooku yet, doesn't mean he was going to lose.
And it also doesn't mean that Dooku was going to lose.



You see, Dooku wanted to fight Yoda 1 on 1 with nobody interrupting. Same goes for Yoda since he himself was as surprised as Dooku about the nearing arrival of Anakin and Obiwan.
Of course Dooku was going to flee because he's not an idiot and from the duel it was obvious that there wouldn't be a victor anytime soon. However, if they had kept on dueling and Anakin and Obiwan arrived, Dooku's chance's of fleeing would've dropped to 0%.

EDIT:
@topic: Team 2.

You didn't quote the entire fight.


Dooku had an escape clause; he lost, and so he ran.

It depends on the circumstances and what was at stake. A much more accurate statement would be, "You wouldn't distract your opponent and flee if losing wasn't an option."



Did you throw it in his/her/their face about Dooku being empowered by Vjun's powerful dark side presence?

That would be mean.

And, more importantly, doing so would make it look like I'm actually trying, rather than mockinghelping.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I don't think there would be any "taking on" occurring, let alone "beating." There will be no beating going on.

Exar Kun whips him like a red-headed stepchild.

He is more adept with a blade. (Kun invented his own style and weapon.)
He is more knowledgeable with the Force. (Kun had more combat-applicable knowledge than Skywalker ever dreamed of.)
He is more adept with the Force. (Spamming amulet blasts will quickly overwhelm the boy wonder.)

Everything that Anakin could do, Kun could do better.

How does inventing your own style equate to being better with a blade?
Mace Windu invented his own style and, although pretty skilled with a blade, others that haven't invented their own complete style have surpassed him.
Exar Kun knew a bunch of sith magic. I don't see much other than the amulets that would help him significantly.
How long will it take for him to hit Anakin, and could Anakin get close to Exar? Because "in teh zone" Luke would pwn DE Sidious pretty quickly.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Dooku had an escape clause; he lost, and so he ran.
Yeah, he had a plan B IF he saw he was no match for his old master.

And Dooku being empowered by Vjun could've been the deciding factor in the duel because if Yoda (who was constantly invigorating himself via the force in addition to using the arguably physically most demanding lightsaber form with all it's flips and spins) couldn't finish off Dooku (with his boosted force reserves) fast enough, he would've lost.

It really wasn't as clear of a fight as people make it out to be.

This is a lie. I do not talk to liars.



I tried. Really, I did. You are too caught up in the dance and game of "scoring points" to realize that this isn't a debate. There is no comparison that equates you to me. For every piece of advice I gave you, you tried to retaliate. (Kudos, by the way, for fitting four fallacies into a three paragraph post.)


Onto ignore you go.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
Yeah, he had a plan B IF he saw he was no match for his old master.

And Dooku being empowered by Vjun could've been the deciding factor in the duel because if Yoda (who was constantly invigorating himself via the force in addition to using the arguably physically most demanding lightsaber form with all it's flips and spins) couldn't finish off Dooku (with his boosted force reserves) fast enough, he would've lost.

It really wasn't as clear of a fight as people make it out to be.
I'm not sure this works. Yoda is always "boosting himself." That is the baseline combat style.

It is the boost to Dooku that is noteworthy. Dooku was incapable of taking Yoda out even with the (very much acclaimed) Dark Side boost from the planet. Yoda is better than Dooku+.

I believe that the above paragraph is what Gideon was getting at.

Perhaps I should've added in another member to team 1. Maybe ROTS Obi Wan.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I don't think there would be any "taking on" occurring, let alone "beating." There will be no beating going on.

Exar Kun whips him like a red-headed stepchild.

He is more adept with a blade. (Kun invented his own style and weapon.)
He is more knowledgeable with the Force. (Kun had more combat-applicable knowledge than Skywalker ever dreamed of.)
He is more adept with the Force. (Spamming amulet blasts will quickly overwhelm the boy wonder.)

Everything that Anakin could do, Kun could do better.

This doesn't equate to being a non-factor LOL LOL. Thanks for the laugh and the fallacies buddy.

Post where RN said Anakin was a non-factor. And make it soon.

Originally posted by Gideon
Post where RN said Anakin was a non-factor. And make it soon.

Him saying he whips Anakin like a red-headed step child in every department doesn't equate to him viewing Anakin as a non-factor. How on Gods green earth is that even possible? However, I didn't disagree with most of that conclusion.. all I did disagree with was in regards to sabers. View the previous page and how many times it was said Anakin was a non-factor which I also referenced in my post. Red Nemesis and the post I quoted seems very clearly to be saying the same thing.. unless of course you find something in there where he gives Anakin a chance...

... Are you DS?

Okay. This,



...is what RN put you on ignore for. Technically, no, saying that Kun would curbstomp Anakin doesn't necessarily mean Anakin is a non-factor. RN rarely uses metaphor and is very literal. Kit Fisto was curbstomped by the Emperor, but was still technically a factor in the duel.

To you, it might mean the same thing, but he didn't actually say it, which is what's important.

Also, Earth is mostly blue.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I'm not sure this works. Yoda is always "boosting himself." That is the baseline combat style.

It is the boost to Dooku that is noteworthy. Dooku was incapable of taking Yoda out even with the (very much acclaimed) Dark Side boost from the planet. Yoda is better than Dooku+.

I believe that the above paragraph is what Gideon was getting at.
Dooku+ couldn't take out Yoda, yes, but Yoda couldn't take out Dooku+ too and that's the point.
I wasn't claiming that Dooku was better during the fight that is depicted in the book and yeah, Yoda was better (however not by a big margin, because the book described Dooku "Slowly, slowly "and even then you don't know if it wasn't intentional due to Dooku's fighting-style) but was it really enough for him to create an opening and kill Dooku? Because like I said, the longer the fight goes the greater becomes the advantage of Dooku due to the boost + his power efficient fighting style.

That is why I said it's not really clear how the fight would've ended if the duo didn't arrive.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
Dooku+ couldn't take out Yoda, yes, but Yoda couldn't take out Dooku+ too and that's the point.
I wasn't claiming that Dooku was better during the fight that is depicted in the book and yeah, Yoda was better (however not by a big margin, because the book described Dooku "Slowly, slowly "and even then you don't know if it wasn't intentional due to Dooku's fighting-style) but was it really enough for him to create an opening and kill Dooku? Because like I said, the longer the fight goes the greater becomes the advantage of Dooku due to the boost + his power efficient fighting style.

That is why I said it's not really clear how the fight would've ended if the duo didn't arrive.

What? Since when couldn't Yoda take out Dooku? Is there any evidence of that? Because Yoda admitted that he wasn't really going all out vs Dooku (well, Yoda admitted that he's reluctant to kill Dooku).

Dooku learns about the duo before the fight begins; they are not the deciding factor in his decision to activate the DOKAW.

Also, I think you will notice that it is Dooku, not Yoda, who is singled out as feeling the strain of battle:

Actually a very important factor, depending on how charitable towards Mace you feel at the moment. The novel includes the phrase "slip into Vaapad" more than once, often in a time-sensitive context. Kit's spine-bones helped buy him that time.

Was he wearing protection when he slipped into Vaapad?

get it?

yes

ur mom got it too last nite

But I didn't tell her the joke.

Thats becuase I told her!!! excellent

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Dooku learns about the duo before the fight begins; they are not the deciding factor in his decision to activate the DOKAW.
He learns about the duo and IMMEDIATELY initiates the fight with Yoda to give him as much time as possible. Then after seeing that taking out Yoda before the duo's arrival is off the cards, he launches the rocket.


Of course he is tiring, what do you expect from such a fight? For me it's just an indication of a hard fought battle on both sides.

I guess it just seems to me that you're attributing a bit of urgency to Dooku's actions that I don't see. He holds Anakin in total disregard, and thinks of Kenobi only with disdain. I don't think that he would be particularly worried about them. This is still the time period where he routinely puts Skywalker on his ass. (See that terrible cartoon movie that I never watched. There's a relevant clip in there somewhere.)


Yes but Yoda isn't noted to feel the same strain.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I guess it just seems to me that you're attributing a bit of urgency to Dooku's actions that I don't see. He holds Anakin in total disregard, and thinks of Kenobi only with disdain. I don't think that he would be particularly worried about them. This is still the time period where he routinely puts Skywalker on his ass. (See that terrible cartoon movie that I never watched. There's a relevant clip in there somewhere.)
"

He may not worry about fighting Anakin alone or anakin plus Obiwan (don't know, I haven't watched much of the CW stuff either) but when you have Yoda going up against you as well, everyone who still has a bit sanity left will try to avoid a fight.


"Yoda breathed, calming himself."

P.S: It's 2am over here. I'm off to sleep + university so I won't be replying for the next 15h or so.

That's legit. I'm going to accept that Dooku's timeframe was considerably shorter than I'd thought.

...That doesn't change the fact that an empowered, hurried Dooku wasn't enough to take out a Yoda on enemy soil.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
...That doesn't change the fact that an empowered, hurried Dooku wasn't enough to take out a Yoda on enemy soil.
That he was hurried didn't magically make him better than usual; if anything it made him weaker.

Again, to me the important part of the fight was never reached. Yes, Yoda was on the offense but Dooku was described as "countering Yoda's every move". Both of them were tiring: Yoda was described as "breathing hard" and Dooku as sweating through his beard but to me Yoda was tiring exceptionally faster due to his Ataru in contrast to Dooku's power-efficient Makashi and constant power boost from Vjun.

This is joke, right?

Yes. That is why it's so funny.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Perhaps I should've added in another member to team 1. Maybe ROTS Obi Wan.

I don't see ROTS Obi-wan making much of a difference. He'd probably just get pwned by their Force attacks as any of these three are better than Dooku. Maybe give them Kyp or or someone. I don't think anyone could really turn the tide though.

DE Sidious is gonna equal Luke more or less, and Anakin is weaker than either Bane or Exar. Kyp probably couldn't beat either of them either.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I don't see ROTS Obi-wan making much of a difference. He'd probably just get pwned by their Force attacks as any of these three are better than Dooku. Maybe give them Kyp or or someone. I don't think anyone could really turn the tide though.

"in teh zone" Luke would pwn Sidious

"in teh zone" Anakin could take on Bane and Exar as well, although the latter has amulets.

If Obi Wan were here, he could take on Bane while Anakin avoids amulet blasts from Exar and tries to close the distance. In a lightsaber duel "in teh zone" Anakin would likely beat Exar.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
"in teh zone" Luke would pwn Sidious

"in teh zone" Anakin could take on Bane and Exar as well, although the latter has amulets.

If Obi Wan were here, he could take on Bane while Anakin avoids amulet blasts from Exar and tries to close the distance. In a lightsaber duel "in teh zone" Anakin would likely beat Exar.

Luke absolutely would not pwn Sidious. They're roughly equal, as in DE it was said that Sidious at that point was an embodiment of the Force, aka, as strong as it gets. This will be extremely close.

Anakin beat Dooku, but was not as strong as even ROTS Sidious. This is proven by Yoda directly telling Obi-wan that he was not strong enough to defeat, yet he felt that Obi-wan could defeat Anakin. Given that, either Bane or Exar will be defeating Anakin. Exar's unusual style plus superior knowledge, along with his empowerment from the amulets isn't going to let him lose to Anakin.

Obi-wan was pwned by Dooku in something like 20 seconds if I remember correctly. Both Exar and Bane are more powerful, so Obi-wan isn't going to last long enough to be of any assistance.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Luke absolutely would not pwn Sidious. They're roughly equal, as in DE it was said that Sidious at that point was an embodiment of the Force, aka, as strong as it gets. This will be extremely close.

Anakin beat Dooku, but was not as strong as even ROTS Sidious. This is proven by Yoda directly telling Obi-wan that he was not strong enough to defeat, yet he felt that Obi-wan could defeat Anakin. Given that, either Bane or Exar will be defeating Anakin. Exar's unusual style plus superior knowledge, along with his empowerment from the amulets isn't going to let him lose to Anakin.

Obi-wan was pwned by Dooku in something like 20 seconds if I remember correctly. Both Exar and Bane are more powerful, so Obi-wan isn't going to last long enough to be of any assistance.

ROTS Anakin < Dooku. "in teh zone" Anakin pwned Dooku. Luke is already > DE Sidious (not by a lot, but by a decent amount), so "in teh zone" Luke would pwn Sidious, possibily faster than "in teh zone" Anakin pwned Dooku.

Huh? ROTS Sidious > Exar Kun. If Anakin can avoid the amulet blasts (which I admit is a little sketchy), then "in teh zone" Anakin could likely beat Exar in sabers. I don't know about any significant evidence that would put Exar above Dooku in sabers.

From the movie it seems as though Dooku caught Obi Wan off guard. And by 20 seconds "in teh zone" Luke likely could have beaten Sidious.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
ROTS Anakin < Dooku. "in teh zone" Anakin pwned Dooku. Luke is already > DE Sidious (not by a lot, but by a decent amount), so "in teh zone" Luke would pwn Sidious, possibily faster than "in teh zone" Anakin pwned Dooku.

WTF is "in teh zone" mean to you exactly. I guess that would be the logical place to start. Is this like super-sayan or some shit? "IT'S OVER 9000!!!!!!!"

I guess you missed the whole part about DE Sidious being an embodiment of the Force. That's as powerful as it gets. No matter how strong Luke gets, he can't pwn Sidious at that point. It's similar to Ganner's final stand, when he became an embodiment of the Force and went from a below-par Jedi to beast and slew hundreds, if not thousands of Vong.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Huh? ROTS Sidious > Exar Kun. If Anakin can avoid the amulet blasts (which I admit is a little sketchy), then "in teh zone" Anakin could likely beat Exar in sabers. I don't know about any significant evidence that would put Exar above Dooku in sabers.

I disagree with ROTS Sidious being better than Exar. That quote that said Sidious was the most powerful Sith I believe is more in reference to his all around "power," such as political and military, as opposed to his abilities in a 1v1 fight. Exar was trained by arguably the best master in his era and had access to more knowledge than he could possibly use in his lifetime. He created the double-bladed saber and as a result his own style to use it, which he took with him when the Order defeated him. Exar pwned Voodoo, who admittedly probably isn't one of the greatest Jedi ever; but is definitely up there, while simultaneously freezing the entire Senate (thousands of beings). Add in the amulet blasts, and Anakin is going down.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
From the movie it seems as though Dooku caught Obi Wan off guard. And by 20 seconds "in teh zone" Luke likely could have beaten Sidious.

Bullshit. Luke is not much better than DE Sidious. That fight is going to be one for the ages and last an extremely long time. What's to stop Obi-wan from being caught "off-guard" by these three Sith, any of which is more capable with the Force than Dooku? DE Sidious snaps Obi-wans neck in seconds.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
WTF is "in teh zone" mean to you exactly. I guess that would be the logical place to start. Is this like super-sayan or some shit? "IT'S OVER 9000!!!!!!!"

I guess you missed the whole part about DE Sidious being an embodiment of the Force. That's as powerful as it gets. No matter how strong Luke gets, he can't pwn Sidious at that point. It's similar to Ganner's final stand, when he became an embodiment of the Force and went from a below-par Jedi to beast and slew hundreds, if not thousands of Vong.



"in teh zone" Anakin is the term given by a lot of people in this forum referring to Anakin in the state of mind in which he fought, and pwned, Dooku.



Well, from what I remember many of the quotes saying that Sidious is the most powerful sith are in the context of a fight.

Being trained by arguably the best master in his era - Sidious was superior to Dooku, who was trained by arguably the best Jedi master of all time, Yoda.

Creating the double bladed lightsaber - how does this translate to being more powerful than Sidious?

Pwning Vodo - as you said, this isn't extremely impressive compared to Sidious's feats, such as pwning three high level Jedi Masters in a matter of seconds.

freezing the senate - Exar used a ritual, right?



Again, this is an "in teh zone" version of Luke. And again, Dooku seemed to have caught Obi Wan off guard.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
"in teh zone" Anakin is the term given by a lot of people in this forum referring to Anakin in the state of mind in which he fought, and pwned, Dooku.

I see that. I'm talking about Luke "in teh zone." What is that referring to exactly? How is that going to let him defeat two guys, either of which is arguably more powerful than Dooku? Oh ya, it isn't.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Well, from what I remember many of the quotes saying that Sidious is the most powerful sith are in the context of a fight.

Being trained by arguably the best master in his era - Sidious was superior to Dooku, who was trained by arguably the best Jedi master of all time, Yoda.

Creating the double bladed lightsaber - how does this translate to being more powerful than Sidious?

Pwning Vodo - as you said, this isn't extremely impressive compared to Sidious's feats, such as pwning three high level Jedi Masters in a matter of seconds.

freezing the senate - Exar used a ritual, right?

What you remember isn't really important to me. A lot of us older members have had that argument dozens of times on here and I stand firm that it is not referring to 1v1 abilities.

Dooku was still inferior to his master. Exar practically butt-raped his. His creation of the double-bladed lightsaber shows his extreme proficiency with lightsaber combat. Mace finishing Juyo is one of his hallmark feats. Exar created an entire form start to finish for an entirely new weapon. He then successfully used that form many times. It just goes to show that his skill in lightsaber combat is top tier.

Sidious then lost to another master only moments later. Exar smashed Voodoo while controlling the Senate. In my book that beats killing a couple of off-guard Jedi.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Again, this is an "in teh zone" version of Luke. And again, Dooku seemed to have caught Obi Wan off guard.

What incarnation of Luke would this be exactly? How does that make him more powerful than an embodiment of the Force?

Exar Kun was also able to stalemate Ulic Qel'Droma in lightsaber combat. Eminence's post in the EU section shows why thats pretty sweet. But we also don't know his measurable abilities, so yeah.... Make of that what you will.



It doesn't. Kun had to actually fight and beat his master. Sidious obliterated them. They had no chance to fight back. Plus they had their sabers on and where expecting a fight. They weren't 'off guard'.



Since when has Sidious been an embodiment of the Force?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I see that. I'm talking about Luke "in teh zone." What is that referring to exactly? How is that going to let him defeat two guys, either of which is arguably more powerful than Dooku? Oh ya, it isn't.



Basically, a very pissed off Luke who is also in a focused state of mind.



Did a source not say that ultimately Yoda wasn't able to defeat the most powerful sith of all time or something? And Sidious was also to my knowledge called the most powerful sith by TPM, and at that time he wasn't Supreme Chancellor yet, so wouldn't have a huge amount of political power, although Palpatine was a senator.



How powerful was Vodo? We don't really know. We know that he was powerful, but we don't know how powerful he was.

Although inventing double sided lightsabers does indeed show that Exar Kun is very skilled with dueling, it doesn't put him above Anakin.



"lost to another master" - that Master was Mace Windu, one of the most powerful Force users of all time who also created Vapaad.


Again, although these are impressive feats how do they compare to Anakin's?


Where did you find this quote and how do you know that it isn't hyperbole/a figure of speech?

Luke was capable of resisting the gravitational pull of a supermassive black hole (which probably isn't hyperbole).

Just gonna say this: I'm thinking ROTS Kenobi and ROTS anakin together could challenge one of these sith Lords. They might even beat Bane. But if they both attacked Sidious, they might keep him busy enough that Luke is the first one to die to both Bane and Kun. (they couldn't beat DE sidious tho)

They might beat Kun. Could Luke last long enough against Sidious and Bane for Anakin and Kenobi to kill Kun? But the sith would have to let them have that fight. any other configuration, Kenobi and ANakin die quickly.

THough I have another thought on that:

Kun's main strength is the amulet right? I have a feeling Luke could take that away from him.

Originally posted by truejedi
Just gonna say this: I'm thinking ROTS Kenobi and ROTS anakin together could challenge one of these sith Lords. They might even beat Bane. But if they both attacked Sidious, they might keep him busy enough that Luke is the first one to die to both Bane and Kun. (they couldn't beat DE sidious tho)

They might beat Kun. Could Luke last long enough against Sidious and Bane for Anakin and Kenobi to kill Kun? But the sith would have to let them have that fight. any other configuration, Kenobi and ANakin die quickly.

THough I have another thought on that:

Kun's main strength is the amulet right? I have a feeling Luke could take that away from him.

Well, if Luke blitzes Sidious (and pwns Sidious since Luke is "in teh zone" for this fight), Obi Wan can hold off Bane and Anakin could possibly defeat Exar if it weren't for those amulets. With the amulets I'm not sure if Anakin could survive that long.

No way is Luke 'pwning' DE Sidious. Nuh uh. Nope. Never gonna happen.

I don't think Luke is going to be able to dominate Sidious. Beat him, sure, but it would be an epic fight. Also, I didn't mean to say that Kenobi and Anakin would beat Bane, I meant to say Exar. Too late to edit though.

ROTS Anakin < Dooku, and yet "in teh zone" Anakin pwned Dooku.

By this logic, Luke, who is already > Sidious, would pwn Sidious if Luke is in his "in teh zone" state even more than "in teh zone" Anakin pwned Dooku.

Doubt it. When Anakin went "in teh z0ne" he iddn't simply become far more powerful, rather he tapped into his immense potential. Virtually it was showing what he is capable off. Luke's potential on the other hand is unknown it may be as great as Anakin's but it may not be. The only sure thing is that it is higher than Sidious's (GL states this in an interview). As such we can't really know if he would get more powerful.

However, I still think Anakin can take down Exar. Sure tha man seems to be impressive but Anakin humilated Dooku which is far more impressive than any thing Exar has ever done. Exar's onle real chance is his amulets.

Bane on the other hand would beat Anakin simply because he has no counter to Bane's orbalisks.

Luke will beat Sidious. But it would take a long while.

Glentract
What you remember isn't really important to me. A lot of us older members have had that argument dozens of times on here and I stand firm that it is not referring to 1v1 abilities.
I'm going to ignore the irony and point out that you're still completely wrong.


Please tell me you're joking.

Now.


No, it shows his proficiency at making lightsabers.

Based on existing designs.


Mace combining his high level mastery of multiple forms with the expertise of one of the greatest lightsaber instructors in Jedi history to introduce a unique metaphysical element to Juyo and then kick the galaxy's ass with the end result is one of his hallmark feats.


When was it confirmed that his style was ever completed?


See ] above.


If by "many" times you mean twice, against Masters Vodo and Ood Bnar, the latter of whom promptly turned himself into a tree... yes.

Yes he did.


For the era? Certainly. For all time? There are easily over a dozen who have at least as worthy a claim to the tier.

I'm not trying to belittle him, but the case you're making is beyond awful.


I'm going to ignore this.


He smashed a Jedi Master who faced him with a stick and who himself had no feats or accolades suggesting martial ability that would be considered particularly impressive across four thousand years of explored canon.


What the fvck?

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091010025145/starwars/images/0/0b/Duel_on_Coruscant.jpg

^ That would be four Jedi standing in the Chancellor's doorway with their swords of durasteel-melting plasma out while Palpatine's sitting on his ass. You're familiar with the legendary reputation of Mace Windu, but even the ones who aren't Samuel L. Jackson were collectively recognized as some of the most celebrated swordsmen in the Jedi Order's history (a.k.a. some really badass motherfvckers) and they were all perfectly aware of the fact that the man they wanted to take into custody was the Dark Lord of the Sith. Those are four of the least "off-guard" people in the mythos, anywhere, ever.

I don't ever want to see that argument again.

What are you talking about, Faunus? Look at Kolar's face. He so doesn't wanna be there.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
What are you talking about, Faunus? Look at Kolar's face. He so doesn't wanna be there.

That doesn't mean that they weren't prepared. If you're drafted into the Army and don't want to be there, you'd still be prepared when you're about to infiltrate a base. And that expression Kolar has may be a battle ready expression.

He quoted me just now, didn't he?

He didn't get that you were joking.

omg

I suspected that Lord Lucien was joking, but the point he (jokingly) brings up does have some validity. Some.

Originally posted by Eminence
You're familiar with the legendary reputation of Mace Windu, but even the ones who aren't Samuel L. Jackson were collectively recognized as some of the most celebrated swordsmen in the Jedi Order's history (a.k.a. some really badass motherfvckers) and they were all perfectly aware of the fact that the man they wanted to take into custody was the Dark Lord of the Sith. Those are four of the least "off-guard" people in the mythos, anywhere, ever.

I don't ever want to see that argument again.

Funny.

When you type "collectively" you are certainly referring to the collective of cells that form Mace Windu's brain, right? Because the line of thought that they were some of the greatest duellists ever did emerge from that very spot: Mace Windu's brain. The same Mace Windu that in the very same source (the RotS-Novel) puts Obi-Wan Kenobi above himself and Yoda in the lightsaber department and the same Mace Windu that - in a source written by the same author (Shatterpoint) - puts his own apprentice above himself in terms of bladework.

Do you spot a certain pattern there? Can it be that Mace Windu simply holds his contemporary Jedi in a very high regard - a fact that is reflected in his thoughts? Can it be that said thoughts don't necesserily give an accurate picture of reality?

And on top of that: So they were perfectly prepared to confront a Sith Lord, even though actually only Windu out of the four, has ever confronted a Dark Side using lightsaber duelist? They were, indeed, so skillful and perfectly prepared that two of them were cut down instantly, before being able to move?

Because, you see, to me it looks as if they were confronting a complete unknown (to them) in terms of ability, power and skill, which is not exactly "being prepared". A thought proven by the fact that they, you know, died. And given that - somehow - Fisto and Windu were capable of moving while Sidious was in the air, I have to suggest that those two did actually possess far superior reactions and / or speed to Kolar and Tiin. Again this is proven by the fact that the two first victims of Sidious didn't react to his assault.

So I would encourage you to stop arguing facts we saw on screen by utilizing the thoughts of a character. Because that line of thought, quite frankly, makes absolutely no sense in the realms of logical reasoning. Unless you want to make Sidious look more capable in combat than he actually is. But, given where this line of thought originated from, this was - most likely - the actual purpose of introducing it to this forum at all.

Of course this was done, without taking the facts into consideration that

- the RotS-novel features a third-person limited narrator,
- consequently, this is a line of thought from Windu
- Windu can be pretty damn wrong and hardly represents an objective source when it comes to the actual abilities of his contemporary Jedi (as seen above).

But maybe that's all just some sort of minor detail that one can ignore while analyzing the source-material...?!

They are all called "celebrated swordsmen" in the RotS visual guide.

Originally posted by ares834
They are all called "celebrated swordsmen" in the RotS visual guide.

I didn't know that "fame" (something that "celebrated" hints to) was a synonym for "skill". I'm fairly sure they were all celebrated warriors due to their participation in the Clone Wars - which would apply to most Jedi who survived until the days of RotS -, yet I don't see how that allows any inference to their actual level of lightsaber mastery.

Originally posted by Eminence
I'm going to ignore the irony and point out that you're still completely wrong.

Great argument against me, oh wait, this isn't one.

Originally posted by Eminence
Please tell me you're joking.

Now.

Absolutely not. Voodoo's weapon of choice was his staff. He was one of, if not the, most capable Jedi in the Order and he was demolished by Exar. That's damn impressive on Exar's part.

NOriginally posted by Eminence
o, it shows his proficiency at making lightsabers.

Based on existing designs.

If you can make a lightsaber unlike any ever seen by Jedi before, it's a very good indicator of high level knowledge with the weapon. I don't see how you don't find that to be a valid point.

Originally posted by Eminence
Mace combining his high level mastery of multiple forms with the expertise of one of the greatest lightsaber instructors in Jedi history to introduce a unique metaphysical element to Juyo and then kick the galaxy's ass with the end result is one of his hallmark feats.

Yes it is and it is really impressive. What I'm saying is that Exar creating a new form for use with his weapon is up there too.

Originally posted by Eminence
When was it confirmed that his style was ever completed?

When he used it to cut down his enemies...

Originally posted by Eminence
See ] above.



Originally posted by Eminence
If by "many" times you mean twice, against Masters Vodo and Ood Bnar, the latter of whom promptly turned himself into a tree... yes.

Yes he did.

2 and 0 isn't a bad record.

Originally posted by Eminence
For the era? Certainly. For all time? There are easily over a dozen who have at least as worthy a claim to the tier.

I'm not trying to belittle him, but the case you're making is beyond awful.

The thing is though is that there are just as many, if not more, who "have at least as worthy a claim to the tier" over Obi-wan or Anakin.

I think Nai did a fine job addressing the rest, so I see no reason to be redundant and not bother you with responding to arguments twice.

What was the exact line where Windu said Kenobi was above him and yoda in bladework... I don't remember this line AT ALL in the ROTS Novel.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What was the exact line where Windu said Kenobi was above him and yoda in bladework... I don't remember this line AT ALL in the ROTS Novel.




Windu proclaims that Obi-Wan - according to him - has the best chance out of all living Jedi to take out Grievous and also calls him a "greater" swordsman than he is himself. Both statements seem to suggest that Mace views Kenobi as a better, greater swordsman than himself and Yoda ("all living Jedi".

Originally posted by Borbarad
Windu proclaims that Obi-Wan - according to him - has the best chance out of all living Jedi to take out Grievous and also calls him a "greater" swordsman than he is himself. Both statements seem to suggest that Mace views Kenobi as a better, greater swordsman than himself and Yoda ("all living Jedi".
I'm not at all sure that this is a valid line of attack. The way I read that passage, Windu is praising Kenobi for fulfilling the Jedi code more aptly than himself. Kenobi's form is one of defense, rather than attack, which is much more compatible with the Code than is Yoda's Ataru or is Vaapad. (See the final sentence of the passage you quoted, which is asking about motives rather than skill level.) The praise is on an ideological level, rather than a practical one.

And when I read "of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him" it seems like an admission that the various forms have different strengths. Windu's Vaapad is *not* the best form to use, as Grievous was already able to mimic it to a high degree of accuracy. Kenobi's passive, defensive form would be less likely for Grievous to be able to learn or grow from. This particular attribute may have been one among many factors that make Kenobi the superior candidate for this particular battle. This is a classic case of how ABC argument can fail; the attributes that served him so well against Grievous wouldn't have helped against Sidious, for example. This line is only applicable for a killing-Grievous contest.

Also, this is not the only time that Kenobi's value as a Jedi is noted; Dooku muses on how Obi-Wan exhibits every sign of an exemplary Jedi:

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I'm not at all sure that this is a valid line of attack. The way I read that passage, Windu is praising Kenobi for fulfilling the Jedi code more aptly than himself. Kenobi's form is one of defense, rather than attack, which is much more compatible with the Code than is Yoda's Ataru or is Vaapad. (See the final sentence of the passage you quoted, which is asking about motives rather than skill level.) The praise is on an ideological level, rather than a practical one.

And when I read "of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him" it seems like an admission that the various forms have different strengths. Windu's Vaapad is *not* the best form to use, as Grievous was already able to mimic it to a high degree of accuracy. Kenobi's passive, defensive form would be less likely for Grievous to be able to learn or grow from. This particular attribute may have been one among many factors that make Kenobi the superior candidate for this particular battle. This is a classic case of how ABC argument can fail; the attributes that served him so well against Grievous wouldn't have helped against Sidious, for example. This line is only applicable for a killing-Grievous contest.

Also, this is not the only time that Kenobi's value as a Jedi is noted; Dooku muses on how Obi-Wan exhibits every sign of an exemplary Jedi:

Good post and I agree with this line of thought on Mace could've meant.

Borbarad
Funny.
Apparently.


No, Nai, I'm referring to the collective: Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, and Agen Kolar.


I was under the impression that the line was in Revenge of the Sith: The Visual Dictionary, but it states that the trio were all "celebrated swordmasters."

Which doesn't countermand the point (see below).


You're ignoring the nature of the conversation and therefore the context in which the statement was made.


(The highlights give us one big reason why Obi-Wan's style will serve him so well against Grievous; the general won't learn anything from him.)

This is, in essence, a pep talk. There's really no good reason why you'd fail to acknowledge the tremendous likelihood that Windu is simply trying to bolster Kenobi's confidence in his own ability; after all, Windu, Fisto, and Obi-Wan himself had each beaten Grievous on their own in the past.

If you will yourself into interpreting the passage in the manner which most conveniences you, we're simply going to agree to disagree.



Inaccurate because...?


Kit Fisto dueled Ventress on Ord Cestus, though I'm not sure how your point is remotely relevant.


This is stupid. An inability to defend themselves doesn't mean they weren't as prepared as physically possible under the circumstances, Nai.

The circumstances being any lightsaber duel.

They'd practically have to be off-planet to survive Palpatine. That doesn't mean they suck, it means Palpatine's simply beyond them.


Being unable to compensate for how much better than them Palpatine was doesn't mean they were "off-guard" in the manner Glentract evinced. Somehow Vodo Siosk-Bass is more prepared for a Sith Lord with a double-bladed lightsaber than three "celebrated swordmasters" accompanying Mace Windu to the arrest of the chancellor of the galaxy are for their enemy, and for this reason Kun's singular defeat of his master is more impressive than Palpatine's massacre of three prominent Jedi Masters?

Spare me the bullshit. I'm not pretending the trio would ever have been a match for Palpatine, which is precisely why it doesn't make a difference that they didn't know how powerful he was; they wouldn't have stood a chance anyway.


1.) Saesee Tiin is - barring the man who started podracing at six - the most esteemed pilot in the Jedi Order. He has the advantages of both Jedi training and innate telepathy to aid him, and if the opening chapters of Revenge of the Sith make anything clear it's that being a starfighter pilot requires prodigious reaction times. Being the best of starfighter pilots would, logically, necessitate preternatural reflexes even amongst peers.

2.) Perhaps more obvious, being one of the best swordsmen of his era doesn't require that he be on par with the best swordsmen of his or any era, particularly when his era brought to arms many of the most gifted and powerful beings in history. Kolar does not need to have reaction times or Force-strength or skill equal or even necessarily close to Windu's to rank as one of the best "bladesbeings" in Jedi history, because Windu sets a very high standard. In all of Jedi history up until that point, Yoda might be the only Master who can be proclaimed a superior swordsman.

3.) Given that his entire team was slaughtered "before he knew what happened" (Ultimate Visual Guide), it's entirely possible that Windu might have met a similar fate as the rest had he been the first to be targeted by Palpatine.

(You'll notice he wasn't.)

Huh. so that quote about Kenobi:



Is yet ANOTHER quote about how in tune with the force Kenobi was.

Try this:



or









I'm thinking Kenobi gives himself over to the force more completely, more often than anyone else in the mythos, and is therefore a chronic overachiever.

He didn't live up to his parents' expectations would explain that.

I'm thinking that you've said this before.

i know, but u gave me another quote so i was restating them together.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You would attack somebody first who you know can hold you off and leave yourself vulnerable to attack.

Alternatively, you could start by gutting the largest threat, then proceed to kill off the other, less experienced, less dangerous opponents.

Originally posted by Shoes
Alternatively, you could start by gutting the largest threat, then proceed to kill off the other, less experienced, less dangerous opponents.

It's possible to go about it that way but that is the more dangerous approach with somebody who can clearly stalemate you. He argued that if he would've attack Mace with the same blitz he did with the fodder he could've killed hiim first. That defies logic as he didn't blow his wad in that intial 10 second attack. No where close to being all of a sudden weaker after that when he fought Mace. He was at the same level and couldn't do a thing to Mace, which tell me if he tried that intial attack against Mace it would've failed just as his other attacks failed.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I'm not at all sure that this is a valid line of attack. The way I read that passage, Windu is praising Kenobi for fulfilling the Jedi code more aptly than himself

And when I read "of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him" it seems like an admission that the various forms have different strengths. Windu's Vaapad is *not* the best form to use, as Grievous was already able to mimic it to a high degree of accuracy.

Mace doesn't talk about the code but straight about lightsaber combat. Even if I would follow your line of thought, there would be multiple problems with that:

a) Both Mace and Yoda are definitely the more versatile force users in comparison to Kenobi. They could both defeat Grievous rather easily using the force, which Mace even did twice (Obsession #5, Labyrinth of Evil). Hence the line of thought that Kenobi would have the "best chance" seems to be wrong.

b) Factual evidence. I've already mentioned how Mace simply owned Grievous twice using the force. When Kenobi faces Grievous in RotS, despite being clearly superior in terms of lightsaber combat, he still almost gets killed and just manages to survive due to his resourcefulness.

c) The line of thought that Grievous couldn't mimic Soresu doesn't fly. It's mentioned that Dooku trained him in all forms of combat and mimicking the (minimalistic) Soresu (or exploiting possible weakness in the form) should be as easy as doing the same for something complex like Vaapad.

@Faunus

I'm not entirely sure if you did get what I was aiming at. Maybe I can explain it better, if we start looking at the editing history of the sources in question.

The Sources
a) The RotS: Visiual Dictionary was released in April 2005 - one month before the movie itself.

b) The RotS novel was released at the same point in time April 2nd, 2005.

c) The movie, representing the highest form of canon and the - so far - latest interpretation of the events that happened, premiered at May 15th 2005 in Cannes. That gives Lucas additional 6 weeks of editing, which he - according to the RotS DVD extras - did use for some "last minute changes".

The conclusion: Neither the novel nor the Visiual Dictionary were produced in accordance to the final vision of Lucas or - using in-universe terms - the final events as they truely happened within the SW universe.

The Observations

Movie
There is no way around it: Lucas completly ruined the scene in which the Jedi move in to arrest Sidious, and it makes pretty much all of the people acting look like complete morons. Why?

- Sidious reveals a concealed weapon, instead of using it instantly to blitz the Jedi...
- ...he makes a dramatic pause to deliver the "It's treason then" line, before he ignites his lightsaber and stand there in a nice pose before moving. One should assume that the Jedi would have capitalized on the Sith Lord giving away all possible advantages. Instead...
- ...they stand there like damn statues. Nobody moves while Sidious delivers his nice sentence and poses. Then he jumps at the Jedi...
- ...who still didn't see any necessity to make a damn move. Even when Sidious lands in front of them, the only one that moves - backwards - shown with an extra cut to his person to emphasize this fact is Mace Windu. The other ones don't bother to move an inch. This leads to...
- ...Sidious performing a totally lame ass stabbing manouver that a geriatric blind man could have avoided, because of the ozon smell leading the slow mo movement of Sidious blade. Kolar, obviously, is not able to avoid that stab and dies. Instead of moving here - to cleave right through the complete undefended back of the Sith Lord...
-...Tiin apparently watches in horror how his mate is pierced to follow him into the realm of eternal darkness seconds after without bothering to perform any kind of defence.
- Fisto, at least, has the kindness to take a convenient way to leave the realms of the mortals.

Even if we would assume, that the entire scene does represent some slow-mo shot of what actually happened, the initial situation makes Sidious look like a moron (revealing concealed weapon instead of utilizing that advantage, then give the Jedi even more time to prepare by uttering another one-liner). It also makes look the Jedi damn ineffective, provided that Sidious pretty much sacrifices his advantages and they had seconds to prepare for attack, yet - with the exception of Windu - simply don't react.

Novelization

That entire thing looks quite different in the novel:


Here, Sidious first distracts Tiin and then blitzes the Jedi with his previously concealed lightsaber, proceeds to kill Kolar before Tiin's body even hits the ground and then faces Fisto and Windu - with the former, apparently, surving longer than in the movie.

The point: Not only does Sidious look smarter here, because he plays out all advantages he had. Also, despite of the same result, the Jedi look better. Tiin and Kolar are victims of a surprise attack, coming from an opponent utilizing a concealed weapon coupled with distraction and an extreme action in terms of force speed. This actually explains how two "celebrated swordsman" could go down so fast in a 4on1 situation.

Conclusions

It's pretty simple. One can't convey the ideas presented in the novelization and the Visual Dictionary to the event the movies shows. The situation presented in the novel is entirely different from what we saw in the films The attack of Sidious is presented in a different way, the actors look far more competent than they did in the movie. Consequently, the idea that those were competent lightsaber duelists appears to be far more legit. But that conflicts with what we saw in the movie.

Which leaves two options here: Either we accept that the Jedi trio accompaning Windu consisted of complete and utter morons, that were lucky to be able to hold their lightsabers but hat the reaction time of a dead starfish (movie version). Or we accepted the ideas from the novel, but then we have to deal with the idea that Sidious needed to distract them and blitz them with a concealed weapon in order to stand a chance.

The final conclusion remains the same: Sidious is not as good in combat as some people here may think. Which was the entire point...

Context: Mace and Obi-Wan talking

You were right by pointing out that this entire conversation can be interpreted in a certain way. But since you mentioned "context" here: Does that dialog really make sense to you?

We have two members of the Jedi High Council here. The governing body of an organization that is build upon the fundamental thesis that emotions should be controlled and that they and a Jedi is guided by the force. Given that two fundamental principles, you really think that one of those would attempt to bolster the others confidence. The confidence in what?

"The Force", should be the answer here, because: "The Force is what gives a Jedi his power..." (Obi-Wan, Episode IV: A New Hope). Yet Mace does almost systematically ignore the Force in his considerations and thoughts, despite the fact, that he himself did defeat Grievous via a force manouver in LoE. Does that make sense?

Instead he lectures Jedi on his lightsaber ability. I'm afraid. You reasoning doesn't make sense because of two specific reasons:

a) Why the hell should Windu mention Yodas lightsaber skill here. Sure, Yoda compensates his lack of reach with his style, but that doesn't make him a bad Jedi and even less a bad duellist.

b) How should Grievous learn anything from Kenobi or anybody else? Dooku has already trained him in all lightsaber forms. Besides, as you've quoted yourself:



Emphasis mine.

But none of that was the point. The point was that Windu holds his fellow Jedi in a very high esteem, at times apparently overestimating their abilities. Do you really think that there was no Jedi in the Order that could have brought Depa Billaba down on Haruun Kal (not even Yoda)? Do you really think that Yoda (or Anakin for that matter) would have performed worse against Grievous than Kenobi did in RotS? I don't.

Hence I don't think that the trio was anywhere close to being among the best the order has ever produced. Real proof to the contrary? Apparently non-existant.

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm all for tossing the movie out in favor of the novel. We just won't talk about it and it goes away.

Well if we go by how it appears in the movie then I am a far better swordsman than all four of them put together. I also have way better reflexes than these force users.

On Obi-Wan:

The conversation itself doesn't, not remotely; I didn't it think it did when I first read it, and I think it's even less plausible now that The Clone Wars has changed a few things.

But that doesn't mean I'm taking it the wrong way.


Why did he mention himself here? His need to channel an inner darkness into a weapon of light has hardly dented his reputation in the Order as a revered Jedi, and has made him one of the most formidable warriors in history. Why does Obi-Wan's lack of a deeper weakness mean anything here at all?

The only way that aspect of the passage would make sense would be if it were about more than just swordsmanship. I read it to an extent as Nemesis did; it's as much an observation of Obi-Wan's character as it is of his skill, if not moreso. Again, given that Obi-Wan himself has already beaten Grievous (T-Canon, to boot) this strikes me as the most immediately plausible interpretation.


You're missing the point:


In a duel with Obi-Wan, Grievous has absolutely nothing to gain from mimicking Soresu, a form rooted in simplicity and impassivity. His tutelage under Dooku ensured his familiarity with the seven classical forms, yes. That alone doesn't mean he was ever a true master of all of them, or even if he was that he didn't have anything to gain by noting and adapting to - or adopting - the idiosyncrasies inherent in the martial styles of every highly skilled swordsman he faced. It's actually explicitly stated that he does.

There will be no such gains to be had with "the" master of Soresu; Grievous has never favored the passive, orthodox approach. He simply doesn't work that way.


I'd say this is only true because he believed that he and Kolar alone would be enough of a failsafe in the event that Sidious made a move. I don't think it means any of his observations are patently untrue.


As I said, I was under the impression that the line either originated from or was corroborated in The Visual Guide; I was obviously mistaken.

I agree that there's no longer a reason to believe Saesee Tiin was a swordsman for the ages, and I'll concede that Kolar's position is hardly concrete either. Fisto, however, singlehandedly overpowered General Grievous; I would think that alone would justify his claim to the top tiers of Jedi swordmastery.

If I didn't respond directly to something important it's because I felt it was addressed in the above. If this is not the case, let me know. I'll get to the Palpatine issue sometime before tomorrow night.

Originally posted by Eminence
Why did he mention himself here? His need to channel an inner darkness into a weapon of light has hardly dented his reputation in the Order as a revered Jedi, and has made him one of the most formidable warriors in history. Why does Obi-Wan's lack of a deeper weakness mean anything here at all?


Well.
Mace has a real flaw from the perspective of a Jedi. He can't really control his inner darkness and, therefore, has to channel it through his lightsaber style. That would fit into the "Obi-Wan is the better Jedi" line of thought, as he - in comparison to Windu - is closer to the "ideal Jedi".



Of course it is also an observation of Obi-Wan's character. But one can't remove the "lightsaber ability" talk from the dialogue here, in favor for that subtext. Mace is reflecting on Obi-Wan's character but, imho - much like the Kolar thing you mention later - I think he is overestimating Obi-Wan's chances / skill here.



My line of thought was actually this: At some point of the duel, Kenobi would be in desperate need to use some offensive manouvers in order to defeat Grievous. In that department he is completely lacking - especially compared to Yoda and Mace. Regardless if you take Force ability or just pure lightsaber skill into consideration.

Thus, Mace's judgement is pretty much off. Maybe just because he didn't take that things into consideration or because he didn't want to take this things into consideration, as he would have to place himself above Kenobi if he did or - philosophically - would have had to admit that sometimes some "aggression" is needed in order to win a fight.



Well. I didn't want to say that Mace is completely off his rocker to think that he is accompanied by some pretty good duellists. He merely makes some "biased" judgement because he - probably - doesn't want to view himself as "number 2" of the Jedi Order just behind Yoda and - more important - with nobody even close to being in his own league. It's lonely at the top...



One could interprete the events in that way. I'm not entirely convinced. Dooku outright tells Grievous that he wouldn't be able to take out one of the Jedi Council members (among them Fisto) in a straight duel (without using his normal tactics - ambush, distraction and so on). Not to mention that the Clone Wars series makes most of the villains look like total retards. Grievous not being able to defeat Ahsoka...lmao.



K.

So by "before tomorrow night" I obviously meant before Friday night. Tests and such; math means no debate.