Tenebrous and Aegis vs Kubik and Tyrant

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galactusischere
CIS and PIS are off.

Which team prevails?

Colossus-Big C
who ever wins its a real close fight

Galan007
Kubik's feats trounce everyone else's combined.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Galan007
Kubik's feats trounce everyone else's combined. thumb up

Colossus-Big C
still

kubic is below celestial leVel which is below abstract both fp tyrant and tenebrous are abstract level

Colossus-Big C
Thats like saying odin has better feats than lord chaos so he would win

galactusischere
Originally posted by Galan007
Kubik's feats trounce everyone else's combined.

Wrapping his hand around a universe isn't all that impressive IMO.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by galactusischere
Wrapping his hand around a universe isn't all that impressive IMO. Wasn't it beyonders universe?

galactusischere
Originally posted by Black bolt z
Wasn't it beyonders universe?
And?

Black bolt z
Originally posted by galactusischere
And? Owning beyonders universe with beyonder in it (even retconed one) is pretty impressive.

Colossus-Big C
tenebrous or tyrant still are much above him

Power Cosmic II
Originally posted by galactusischere
CIS and PIS are off.

Which team prevails?

FP Tyrant?

5/10 for each team

guy222
Is that u T buddy

Kubik FTW

Galan007
Originally posted by galactusischere
Wrapping his hand around a universe isn't all that impressive IMO. Um, Kubik effortlessly warped Beyonder's entire universe into a tiny ball that he could've crushed in his hand. That feat is infinitely superior to anything the others -- even combined -- have done.

Slaanesh
kubik says that he is below celestial..T&A is around Galactus level..and i put Galactus in the same class as a low level celestial..so..i give T&A the win here..

TheTyrant
Galactus > celestial > Kubik > Tyrant > Tenebrous/Aegis

Team 2 wins.

Galan007
I'll just repost this:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/630/kubik1.th.jpg

....And leave it at that.

guy222
thumb up

Colossus-Big C
tenebrous and tyrant are galactus level
these two are the main guys of the fight

a celestial would pimpsmack kubik
he said himself he is nothing to a celestial

TheLordofMurder
You know, if you go by the feat vs the beyonder alone, Kubik should be an Infinity Gauntlet level character...

BUT, he kinda reconned himself when he stated that a lone celestial was several orders of magnitude above himself...

And if hes not reconned and he is capable of warping a resisting universe so effortlessly, then the celestials are stupidly, ridiculously, unrealistically overpowered if a lone celestial is several orders of maginitude more powerful than someone who can warp a universe so easily...

That said, I am picking Tyrant and Kubik to win this fight; Tyrant is the most powerful being present here and Kubik canadd enough firepower to give them the win.

Galan007
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
BUT, he kinda reconned himself when he stated that a lone celestial was several orders of magnitude above himself... Meh, until Celestials actually prove that level of power, then I'll take Kubik's statement with a grain of salt.

Again, his feats are FAR superior to any of the others. Thus he is FAR superior to any of the others. Imo.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Galan007
Meh, until Celestials actually prove that level of power, then I'll take Kubik's statement with a grain of salt.

Again, his feats are FAR superior to any of the others. Thus he is FAR superior to any of the others. Imo. This

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by Black bolt z
This Shut up mad

bbrem123
Originally posted by Galan007
Meh, until Celestials actually prove that level of power, then I'll take Kubik's statement with a grain of salt.

Again, his feats are FAR superior to any of the others. Thus he is FAR superior to any of the others. Imo.

agreed

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Galan007
Meh, until Celestials actually prove that level of power, then I'll take Kubik's statement with a grain of salt.

Again, his feats are FAR superior to any of the others. Thus he is FAR superior to any of the others. Imo.

Its totally your choice to believe or not, but the fact of the matter is that comic characters can and do get reconned...and the situation with Kibik is clearly a situation where he was reconned.

Again, Kubik warped an entire resisting universe with ease; IMHO, nothing short of the Infinity Guantlet should be capable of such a feat...Kubik (at that point in time) was capable of such a thing.

But its clear that someone thought that that kind of feat was more than a cube being should be capable of (as it upsets the cosmic hierarchy), so then he was rewritten (with himself being the mouthpiece) as being "several orders of magnitude" (meaning he's...according to his own words...atleast 100 times) less powerful than a lone Celestial.

This is as clear a case of a character being reconned as I have ever seen; if you think about it logically, I think you'll come to the same conclusion.

janus77
It'd be awesome to see T&A face off against Tyrant, I have a feeling that they would crush him, we really didn't get to see them fighting in full pomp, during Annihilation...


as to the thread... Team 2, for now.

Utrigita
Based purely on feats from the characters in question, Kubik takes this alone with ease.

Based on statements and feats from Galactus calculated in with the supposed power rating between Tyrant, Aegis and Tenebrous in comparison to Galactus, Stalemate or a slight lean towards Tenebrous and Aegis.

Colossus-Big C
galactus has enough power to destroy a universe 10 times over that alone truimps kubiks feat

Johnny Sorrow
Yeah...retcons stink.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
galactus has enough power to destroy a universe 10 times over that alone truimps kubiks feat Ok galactus does not have power to destroy 10 universes.He's not that strong.

Colossus-Big C
yes he does justs ask galactusis here

even shuma gorath eats entire universes, this puts him above kubiks feat

Utrigita
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
galactus has enough power to destroy a universe 10 times over that alone truimps kubiks feat

it was a statement that supposedly iirc was made by the watcher, so Galactus have never actually performed the feat.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
yes he does justs ask galactusis here

even shuma gorath eats entire universes, this puts him above kubiks feat Galactus has never destroyed even a single universe.He has eaten them but eating=/=destroying.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
yes he does justs ask galactusis here

even shuma gorath eats entire universes, this puts him above kubiks feat

Shuma Gorath merged with his universe. I don't recall him eating universes. And Galactus would have to die to wreck universes.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Shuma Gorath merged with his universe. I don't recall him eating universes. And Galactus would have to die to wreck universes. but you do agree that


Vishanti>galactus=agamotto>celestials>cube beings=demogorge

you said something similiar to this before

TheTyrant
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
but you do agree that


Vishanti>galactus=agamotto>celestials>cube beings=demogorge

you said something similiar to this before

Vishanti inside of their realm might be able to defeat a well-fed Galactus. There is no way that they can defeat a fed Galactus outside of their realm.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by TheTyrant
Vishanti inside of their realm might be able to defeat a well-fed Galactus. There is no way that they can defeat a fed Galactus outside of their realm. they summoned the tribunal outside there realm

Galan007
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Its totally your choice to believe or not, but the fact of the matter is that comic characters can and do get reconned...and the situation with Kibik is clearly a situation where he was reconned.

Again, Kubik warped an entire resisting universe with ease; IMHO, nothing short of the Infinity Guantlet should be capable of such a feat...Kubik (at that point in time) was capable of such a thing.

But its clear that someone thought that that kind of feat was more than a cube being should be capable of (as it upsets the cosmic hierarchy), so then he was rewritten (with himself being the mouthpiece) as being "several orders of magnitude" (meaning he's...according to his own words...atleast 100 times) less powerful than a lone Celestial.

This is as clear a case of a character being reconned as I have ever seen; if you think about it logically, I think you'll come to the same conclusion. Nothing was 'retconned'. Hell, "Fantastic Four" #319 (the issue in which Kubik warped Beyonder's universe) was specifically referenced when Kubik was speechifying on the Celestials.

Imo, all that issue did was build up the power of Celestials... Kubik: "my power is infinite, but their power is more infinite." *cough*ridiculous*cough*

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by Galan007
Nothing was 'retconned'. Hell, "Fantastic Four" #319 (the issue in which Kubik warped Beyonder's universe) was specifically referenced when Kubik was speechifying on the Celestials.

Imo, all that issue did was build up the power of Celestials... Kubik: "my power is infinite, but their power is more infinite." *cough*ridiculous*cough* he said theres different levels of infinity and he is right

toaa has infinit power
>
Beyonder has infinit power
>
Living tribunal has infinit power
>
eternity and infinity has infinit power

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
he said theres different levels of infinity and he is right

toaa has infinit power
>
Beyonder has infinit power
>
Living tribunal has infinit power
>
eternity and infinity has infinit power WHat?Everyone knows that.

TheTyrant
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
they summoned the tribunal outside there realm

What does that have to do with anything?

Galan007
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
he said theres different levels of infinity and he is right

toaa has infinit power
>
Beyonder has infinit power
>
Living tribunal has infinit power
>
eternity and infinity has infinit power If I say I have infinite power, yet there are beings more powerful than me, then by definition, I never had infinite power to begin with.

Greater levels of infinity is a laughable concept... Even by comic book standards.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
but you do agree that

Vishanti>galactus=agamotto>celestials>cube beings=demogorge

you said something similiar to this before

You want to quote me on that? I don't recall.

Colossus-Big C
ill find it when i get on laptop

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Galan007
If I say I have infinite power, yet there are beings more powerful than me, then by definition, I never had infinite power to begin with.

Greater levels of infinity is a laughable concept... Even by comic book standards. Its kind of true though.A universe is infinite in size but two universes are also higher infinity.
ANother example

Count 1,2,3....you can count to infinity
Now count 1.1,1.2,1.3...you get to the same number but use more numbers thus a higher level of counting to infinity.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by TheTyrant
What does that have to do with anything? only abstract level characters or threats to the multiverse can summon big T

TheTyrant
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
only abstract level characters or threats to the multiverse can summon big T

Galactus isn't an abstract?

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by Black bolt z
Its kind of true though.A universe is infinite in size but two universes are also higher infinity.
ANother example

Count 1,2,3....you can count to infinity
Now count 1.1,1.2,1.3...you get to the same number but use more numbers thus a higher level of counting to infinity. yea and a multivsers contains an infinit number of universe that are infinit in size individually

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by TheTyrant
Galactus isn't an abstract? i didnt say that i said there atleast abstract level. its also im ohotmu

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
yea and a multivsers contains an infinit number of universe that are infinit in size individually A multiverse doesn't have an unlimited amount of universes...an omniverse does.

Blanket
Jesus...

TheTyrant
Originally posted by Black bolt z
A multiverse doesn't have an unlimited amount of universes...an omniverse does.

No. Multi-verse does.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by TheTyrant
No. Multi-verse does. Where does it state this?Doesn't a multiverse contain multiple universes?An omniverse has unlimited.

Colossus-Big C
either way a multiverse is a greater infinity in size than a universe

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
either way a multiverse is a greater infinity in size than a universe Yes.But where does it state a multiverse has infinite universes?

Colossus-Big C
iirc it said

omniverse has an infinit amount of multiverse
multivers has infinit amount of universe
universe has inifint amount of dimensions

iirc

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
iirc it said

omniverse has an infinit amount of multiverse
multivers has infinit amount of universe
universe has inifint amount of dimensions

iirc Scans please.What said?

Galan007
Originally posted by Black bolt z
Its kind of true though.A universe is infinite in size but two universes are also higher infinity.
ANother example

Count 1,2,3....you can count to infinity
Now count 1.1,1.2,1.3...you get to the same number but use more numbers thus a higher level of counting to infinity. Are you implying that it is possible to count to infinity? srsly

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Galan007
Are you implying that it is possible to count to infinity? srsly No but there is an infinite amount of numbers so it matters by which way you count you can count to a higher infinity by counting differently.One universe=infinite
Multiple universe=higher infinite.

Galan007
Originally posted by Black bolt z
No but there is an infinite amount of numbers so it matters by which way you count you can count to a higher infinity by counting differently.One universe=infinite
Multiple universe=higher infinite. Infinity CANNOT be quantified numerically. So trying to say that one infinity is larger than the other because it "contains more numbers" is laughably faulty. Infinity is infinity.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Galan007
Infinity CANNOT be quantified numerically. So trying to say that one infinity is larger than the other because it "contains more numbers" is laughably faulty. Infinity is infinity. But there are different levels of infinity.A universe is infinite in size.A multiverse has multiple universes that are all infinite in size.An omniverse has an infinite amount of universes which are all infinite in size.

Galan007
Originally posted by Black bolt z
But there are different levels of infinity.A universe is infinite in size.A multiverse has multiple universes that are all infinite in size.An omniverse has an infinite amount of universes which are all infinite in size. Multiverse, megaverse, omniverse... Those are all words used to describe groups of universes -- ie. a multiverse is a collection of universes, a megaverse is a collection of multiverses, the omniverse is all realms in a specific company.

That terminology is NOT used to describe 'levels of infinity', so much as 'groups of infinities'.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Galan007
Multiverse, megaverse, omniverse... Those are all words used to describe groups of universes -- ie. a multiverse is a collection of universes, a megaverse is a collection of multiverses, the omniverse is all realms in a specific company.

That terminology is NOT used to describe 'levels of infinity', but 'groups of infinities'. Yes but they each contain a different level of inifinity.A universe is infinite.A multiverse has multiple universe of whcih each is infinite.

Galan007
Originally posted by Black bolt z
Yes but they each contain a different level of inifinity.A universe is infinite.A multiverse has multiple universe of whcih each is infinite. You say "infinite" as though it is a fixed variable with some sort of foreseeable end. That isn't how it works. Having said that, universes are not infinite, but rather, they are on a perpetual cycle of infinite outward expansion... Always growing. That's why multiversal powers are > universal powers. Neither of which is truly infinite, but one is bigger than the other because it contains more 'parts' (so to speak.)

That has no bearing on my main point, though: ie. if a character supposedly has infinite power, but they are still weaker than someone else, then their power was never infinite to begin with.

TheLordofMurder
I actually believe in, and understand, the concept of varying levels of "infinite."

Imagine me and some other guy are connected to a resevoir of infinite power; I am connected to the power source with a straw, but the other guy is connected to the same source with a water hose...

We both possess infinite power (as we both can access this power source indefinitely) but the other guy can access and manipulate a greater amount of energy at one time than I can...

In that sense, one infinite can be greater than another infinite; think about it in an even simplier fashion...

Two guys are counting as high as they possibly can (and keep in mind that you, obviously, will never run out of numbers)...but one guy is able to count much faster than the other guy; both guys can access an infinite amount of numbers, but one of the guys infinite (at any given point in time) will be much greater than the other guys infinite.

See...the concept makes perfect sense! wink

Galan007
^ Having access to infinite power =/= actually having infinite power. Your description is more akin to what happened in "Marvel: The End" -- ie. Akhenaton was able to draw power from THOTI, thereby gaining relative omnipotence. Thanos, however, became more powerful than Akhenaton by literally merging with the Heart, thus gaining ALL of it's power. In simpler terms: Akhenaton was a river which leeched it's water from an ocean. Thanos WAS the ocean.

THAT concept does make sense. Unfortunately, THAT concept isn't at all like the one Kubik described.

Colossus-Big C
i think thats what kubik mean . that he has access to infinit power while celestials has access on a greater level.

even odins resevoir of power is infinit while rune king thor would have more access than him

if they can access all of the power at the same time that would be infinit power

Black bolt z
^ this

Galan007
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
i think thats what kubik mean . that he has access to infinit power while celestials has access on a greater level.

even odins resevoir of power is infinit while rune king thor would have more access than him

if they can access all of the power at the same time that would be infinit power Had you read the issue (which you likely haven't) you would know that this is not at all what Kubik alluded to.

Colossus-Big C
^someome posted the scans. if thats not what he means or the part about having different levels of infinity , then what is he talking about?

Galan007
Kubik states that he has infinite power. Then after speechifying on differing levels of infinity, he says that Celestials possess transinfinite levels of power several orders of magnitude beyond his own.

Colossus-Big C
this is exactly what we all mean about " different levels of infinity".........

Galan007
You said that a Celestial can simply access infinite power on a greater scale than Kubik -- which is a cool idea, but it's not what the issue was getting at.

The issue was meant to introduce the concept of differing levels of infinity. Kubik said he possessed infinite power - he then states that the Celestials possess a much greater level of infinite power which is several magnitudes above his own. He even gives a numerical analogy as to how differing levels of infinity *should* work. In a nutshell: this tells me that there are different 'tiers' of infinite power that are achievable in Marvel. Kubik is in the lower infinite tier, Celestials are in the higher infinite tier.

Of course none of this changes the fact that Kubik's feats are far superior to anything the Celestials have done -- thus, I view Kubik as their superior until proven otherwise.

Utrigita
It was a good way though, for Marvel, to tell without having to portray what all those abstracts that until that point was, based on feats, below or equal to Silver Age Odin was infact much more powerful but never choosed to use their power to the magnitude that they actually could, in that regard Kubik's statement makes sense.

That Marvel could from my perspective have choosen a better way to explain it, perhaps a bit like when IB and Galactus fought each other.

I also think that we are forgetting exactly what happen in the given situation IF Kubik was just messing about he wouldn't have been scared when the unnamed Celestial was about to judge him.

Mindship
Aegis twitterpates with cosmic bellydancing ftw.


...and as far as "infinite power" goes, gotta love the phrase "nigh infinite."

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by Mindship
Aegis twitterpates with cosmic bellydancing ftw.


...and as far as "infinite power" goes, gotta love the phrase "nigh infinite." or the phrase Near Infinit

galactusischere
How can you be near infinite? It doesn't make any sense.

Astner
Originally posted by galactusischere
How can you be near infinite? It doesn't make any sense.
Bingo!

You're either depicted with a infinite value or you're depicted with a finite value. Now in a mathematical sense--if you accept the Axiom of Choice--not all infinite values are equal.

Though Kubik failed to provide a proper explanation, I'm not going to nitpick.

Galan007
Originally posted by Astner
Though Kubik failed to provide a proper explanation, I'm not going to nitpick. thumb up

The numerical concept Kubik described implied that "infinity a" was > "infinity b" because "infinity a" contained more numbers. That in itself is a laughable, self-serving oxymoron.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Galan007
thumb up

The numerical concept Kubik described implied that "infinity a" was > "infinity b" because "infinity a" contained more numbers. That in itself is a laughable, self-serving oxymoron. Well if two people are tapping infinite power but one person is tapping more at a time then infinite a>infinite b.

Galan007
Originally posted by Black bolt z
Well if two people are tapping infinite power but one person is tapping more at a time then infinite a>infinite b. How many times do I need to say this? Tapping infinite power on various levels is NOT what Kubik described in his speech. Kubik said that he HAD infinite power, but the Celestial possessed infinite power greater than his own. He described completely different tiers of infinite power.

Johnny Sorrow
This is such a silly conversation. Can't we just accept that comic book writers don't have the greatest hold on mathematics and science?

Galan007
^ laughing out loud that's a given.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Galan007
How many times do I need to say this? Tapping infinite power on various levels is NOT what Kubik described in his speech. Kubik said that he HAD infinite power, but the Celestial possessed infinite power greater than his own. He described completely different tiers of infinite power. Fine.LT has infinite power but so does TOAA.Just more infinite.

Galan007
^ Yes. That is the retarded concept Marvel felt the need to introduce.

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